Frum and Feith’s Holocaust statements are politically loaded and too terse

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 202 Comments

I always want to ask Douglas Feith sincerely about the effect of the destruction of his father’s family — "Both of his parents, four of his sisters, and all three of his brothers– my grandparents, aunts, and uncles–were murdered in the Holocaust," the architect of the Iraq war writes in War and Decision– on Feith’s ideas about Trusting non-Jews (I bet he doesn’t) and the Necessity of the Jewish state (from the river to the sea!) and the need for militancy to preserve the Jewish state against its enemies (Arabs are the new Nazis). If I were Feith, I wonder if I wouldn’t have reached similar conclusions under the distorting impact of this grievance. (Achievement-oriented sons of Feith, how are you doing with the baggage?)

It turns out David Frum also has direct Holocaust connections. I never knew this before, me, a collector of the annotated works of Frum. Frum at Sullivan’s blog:


Today, July 12, is not only Orange Day, but also the birthday of my paternal grandfather Saul Frum. Born in the Czarist empire in 1904, he migrated to Canada with his wife, my grandmother, in 1930. My father was born the next year. That lucky bit of timing is the reason I am typing at this computer today: Those in his family who remained behind in Europe were all murdered, with only one survivor. 

I think of my grandfather often, more and more as I near the age when I knew him. My own son is named for him.

These confessions are inter alia. You don’t see the neocons going into these identity-formative backgrounds. I wish these neocons would talk about this stuff more directly, so that other Jews can offer their own testimony about history and identity. In fact, it’s past time that Yivo had a panel on Blaming the gentiles, in which supporters of Israel like Jeffrey Goldberg, for whom the Holocaust record was also formative, publicly accuse the former non-Jewish U.S. establishment of letting the Jews down, and people have it out.

202 Responses

  1. hophmi
    July 13, 2010, 9:33 am

    So now if a Jew who is on the right writes about the Holocaust, it automatically informs all of his views on the Iraq War? Most Jews whose families came from Europe have Holocaust “connections” of one kind or another. Some talk about it, and some don’t, and that usually depends on whether their survivor relatives talked about it.

    Why would other Jews need the neo-cons to talk about their personal histories before they themselves do? So people like you can make hateful remarks about them? What’s your’s history and identity?

    What do mean when you say that YIVO should have a panel on Blaming the Gentiles? Is that a joke? YIVO is a Yiddish/East European Jewry organization.

    • Philip Weiss
      July 13, 2010, 10:01 am

      where’s the hateful remark here hophmi? show me
      also, these are very direct connections
      i know one person who heard the glass shattering on kristallnacht, an american; moved to israel

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 11:39 am

        Yes, Philip, I agree that the Holocaust is one motivating factor for many Jews who support Israel. It woudl certainly not be out of the ordinary for a people who went through a trauma to support something that protects them collectively. Russian Jews tend to be staunch supporters of Israel precisely because they all have memories of societal persecution from the Soviet Union.

        I don’t think any of that’s a secret, however, which is why I am puzzled by this: “I wish these neocons would talk about this stuff more directly, so that other Jews can offer their own testimony about history and identity.”

        Many, many Jews have written about their personal histories and how it informs their identity. Many (a minority, of course) also say that the Holocaust inspires them to be against Israel, though I think in most cases it is simply their political radicalism which they picked up from their parents (Norman Finkelstein) or college.

        From my end, the personal testimonies of those Jews in the BDS movement should be just as interesting. Again, I’d like to know what inspires a guy like Lenni Brenner to get up in front of a crowd and say how great it is that Jews are assimilating into American culture and intermarrying at high rates and that pretty soon, there won’t be any real Judaism left. To raucous applause from a crowd made up mostly of Muslims and leftists.

        In my case, I did not lose any direct relatives in the Holocaust. I doubtless lost many indirect relatives, since the town where my father’s family is from was all but wiped out.

        So I’m puzzled as to why the neocons need to reveal their personal histories, and not everyone else, or why everyone else needs the neocons to reveal their personal histories before they themselves do.

      • Philip Weiss
        July 13, 2010, 12:10 pm

        i want general open conversations about jewish identity, assimilation, minority fears, etc. the connection between israel and the holocaust is complex but significant. frum claims it was based on intl law (yes leveraged by the lobby). but the holocaust, as obama said in cairo, put the Jewish state over the top

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 12:22 pm

        I’m all for open conversations. I don’t believe you’re fostering them here. Open conversations about assimilation and minority fears take place in-house, and there are good reasons for that.

        I generally agree that the Holocaust and the refugee problem it caused created a moral imperative for the State of Israel to be founded quickly, but I would say that there are other things that put the Jewish state over the top, namely the impression the Yishuv made on visitors who were impressed with the way the Jews had cultivated the land and organized their society.

      • Shmuel
        July 13, 2010, 12:36 pm

        That’s not the same as personal motivation 2-3 generations on. The Holocaust was certainly a motivating factor for the powers that created the State of Israel, although not necessarily for the survivors and their families (Palestine was not exactly a first choice for all the DPs). Far more significant even then, but certainly today, is the manipulation and exploitation of the Holocaust to serve an ideological agenda. Generations of Jews (and non-Jews) have been traumatised and manipulated by the self-appointed guardians of the Holocaust legacy – and this is still going on – regardless of their personal or family connection to the historical events themselves.

        I’m far more concerned by the use Frum makes of the Holocaust than the ways in which he may have been affected by it. In other words, I would rather neocons talked a lot less about the Holocaust.

      • potsherd
        July 13, 2010, 12:50 pm

        to support something that they falsely believe protects them collectively

      • Philip Weiss
        July 13, 2010, 1:14 pm

        yes: in house.
        that means, no non-jews allowed, though sometimes they can press themselves to the plate glass and catch a few words
        it doesnt work. it’s like yivo having a conversation abut walt and mearsheimer without any non-jews present. it’s all about the Cossacks outside the door.
        in other words; completely blind to this moment in history
        imagine wasps saying in 1960s no one else is allowed to talk about wasps role in vietnam war. david halberstam, out of work

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 1:23 pm

        “Open conversations about assimilation and minority fears take place in-house, and there are good reasons for that”

        You have no idea what Phil is talking about. Or is scares you so much you can’t even consider it. I think he is talking about “open” conversations. That means everybody gets to listen or speak. It doesn’t mean one group decides who is in their group, talks in secret and then tells everybody else.

        But like I said, that scares you do death. Why? What have you got to be ashamed of?

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:34 pm

        Except that WASPs are still the majority in this country and Jews are under 2 percent of it. I know we have a certain amount of privilege and all that, but we are simply not the same as WASPs, Phil; when one of us says something, it tends to get generalized to all of us, and then things get dangerous. There is a difference between living as a minority in society and as a majority in society. That is one reason Israeli Jews are more self-critical than American Jews are. Minorities are much more prone to essentialism than majorities are. Minorities do not tend to go out in the world and talk about all of their psychological baggage. You don’t see African-Americans issuing invitations to white people to talk with them about the problems in the Black community. That’s because minorities need a safe space.

        This blog should serve as exhibit A for why having these discussions out in the open is dangerous. Some commenters here are nice people, but many are vicious people who curse at every opportunity, accuse Jews of plotting to take over the world, talk about how the Jewish community is threatening the whole world, question the Holocaust, and so on. These are not people I want to talk about my fears with. In fact, I do talk about my fears here. Usually, I either get cursed out, told to go to hell, or called dishonest.

        Is this the discussion you want, Phil?

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:35 pm

        “That means everybody gets to listen or speak.”

        HAHAHAHA. Then why are Witty and I moderated and everyone else permitted to curse both of us out at will?

        What bullshit.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 3:01 pm

        i was just posting down thread about ‘in a box’ and now i’m reading phil’s words about ‘press themselves to the plate glass’. that’s what i mean. here we are in the new century and the holocaust is all around us. Heilbrunn claimed the holocaust ‘drove’ the neocons (i don’t know if this is true). it’s unrealistic to have our foreign policy so intertwined w/israel and expect the rest of us to sit on the sidelines about this conversation. the holocaust is on our tv’s, in our schools, impacts our foreign policy. the million of iraqis who died are mere ants in importance as are the vietnamese. they will be long gone and forgotten not discussed and we will still be learning about the holocaust. it is untouchable tho no one gets called a racist for saying 100,000 iraqis died. when lancet came out w/those figures nobody got arrested for denying them. out government hides the number of deaths we are responsible for. the people who fried to a crisp in nagasaki. are we reminded of this in several blockbuster movies every year? last night i was watching law and order on tv. the art was stolen from dead jews. so what do we do as a society? do we elevate jewish deaths to conform, or do we recognize the others who have died due to horrible political realities many in our name? how many people are going to continue to suffer because of the holocaust and why is it so many who honor the holocaust don’t honor the lives of palestinians or all the dead muslims in this war on terror.

      • Colin Murray
        July 13, 2010, 3:10 pm

        I’m far more concerned by the use Frum makes of the Holocaust than the ways in which he may have been affected by it.

        I agree.

        Feith’s and Frum’s ancestors were victims. They are not, and they have neither the right to use American lives and tax dollars to subsidize Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization nor to murder, torture, and steal from Palestinians. “My grandpa was a victim” doesn’t cut it, especially when one is, like Feith and Frum, in the upper power structure.

        (Phil) In fact, it’s past time that Yivo had a panel on Blaming the gentiles, in which supporters of Israel like Jeffrey Goldberg, for whom the Holocaust record was also formative, publicly accuse the former non-Jewish U.S. establishment of letting the Jews down, and people have it out.

        We Americans suffered ~320 thousand dead and ~670.000 wounded in World War 2. If it hadn’t been for our invasion of Europe and our critical lend-lease program to the USSR (enabling them to logistically support the deep penetrations of mobile forces which crushed the German army during 1944, enabling a much quicker drive to Berlin), there wouldn’t have been any Jews left alive in Europe by the time the Soviets would have rolled in. There wouldn’t have been enough alive to create Israel.

        Placing a guilt trip on us is absolutely outrageous, especially in 2010. If anyone owes anyone anything, it isn’t us. The Holocaust ended 65 years ago so it’s long past time for some serious rethinking about the balance of debt and obligation.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 3:15 pm

        See, this is where it gets ridiculous. The Vietnamese did not suffer because of the Holocaust, and the US did not go to war with Afghanistan and Iraq because of the Holocaust. 9/11 happened.

        People are not dying in the Congo because of the Holocaust. People are not dying in Somalia because of the Holocaust.

        People did not die in Bosnia because of the Holocaust.
        People did not die in Rwanda because of the Holocaust.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 3:23 pm

        Really, not very many Jews have accused the US of “letting them down” during WWII. It is surely reasonable to point out that the US did not exactly always have saving the Jews in mind as a war aim, and that bad things happened before 1941, like the rejection of the St. Louis.

        Most Jews I know are thankful to the United States, and let it not be forgotten, many Jews were and are veterans of WWII. It is said that one reason Jews have voted Democratic for so long is out of thanks to FDR.

        As far as I’m concerned, any Western country who did not admit as many Jewish refugees as it could during 1933-1945 has something to answer for. I don’t look at as “debt and obligation” though.

      • Danaa
        July 13, 2010, 3:24 pm

        I agree Annie. Can’t help but notice the way Iraqi deaths of just a few year back are brushed aside without as much as a murmur, yet the continuing drumbeat on the holocaust from 70 year ago goes on unabated. For the Iraqi people, the US invasion was their holocaust, but they don’t have the PR machine to call maximal attention to just what a ghastly crime was perpetrated against them in the name of neocon politics.

        A the case may be, we should look at who makes the movie, the documentaries, the TV shows, and writes the books. In the end, those who tell taless the longest and the loudest wins history top victim price. Unfair? in the extreme.

        But can something be done? I think so ……

      • munro
        July 13, 2010, 7:15 pm

        Danaa – “In the end, those who tell tales the longest and the loudest win history’s top victim price.”
        We hear almost nothing about what the Lebanese have suffered. Time mag from 1982, relevant in light of recent talk of another Israeli attack on Lebanon:

        “In the Arab world, there is a widespread belief that if a child is too beautiful or brilliant, he may attract the evil eye. Parents were once known to disfigure especially pretty babies in order to protect them. God should have arranged some such mild, pre-emptive mutilation for Lebanon. He did not, however.

        Lebanon was always as sweet and cunning and ancient and beautiful as the world. It was literate, rich, fabulous, chic as Atlantis in better days. No land was ever luckier, more cosmopolitan. If you drove in from the east, out of the deserts of Jordan, Iraq or Syria, Lebanon was the coolest, greenest, richest land in the imagination of Allah. You climbed the Lebanon Mountains, and suddenly beheld the Mediterranean. Its deep blue waters played in the eye against the snow on the tops of the mountains. The air was dense with the scent of thyme and cedar.”

        more:
        link to time.com

        Possibility of an Israeli attack on Lebanon
        link to arabnews.com

      • RoHa
        July 14, 2010, 7:42 am

        “what inspires a guy like Lenni Brenner to get up in front of a crowd and say how great it is that Jews are assimilating into American culture and intermarrying at high rates ”

        Common decency, perhaps?

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 9:30 am

        You didn’t quote the rest about there being less Jews around. Is that common decency, to wish that there were less Jews in the world?

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2010, 10:21 am

        Hophmi, the reason we need an open discussion is so there will be enough people to tell you and Witty to shut up! And sit on your head if necessary.
        I don’t want to shock you pal, but Gentiles pay taxes, too, and fight in the military.

        Yup, that’s what I said, and make the fucking most of it: We need an open discussion so there will be enough people to shut you guys up.
        I think Phil is just too nice to say that directly. I could be wrong.

      • Richard Witty
        July 14, 2010, 11:51 am

        I and you are moderated, and others are not?

        What kind of “democracy” is that?

      • RoHa
        July 14, 2010, 6:56 pm

        “Jews” is a plural noun, so your question should be “Is that common decency, to wish that there were fewer Jews in the world?”

        And the answer is “Yes, insofar as Jews hold themselves as separate and special, and regard the rest of humanity with contempt.” It is certainly decent to wish there were fewer such people in the world, and Lenni Brenner is rejoicing over those Jews who have accepted their common humanity.

        Incidentally, I also wish there were fewer Christians and Muslims in the world, because I think their superstitions are damaging both society and to the individual mind and soul.

      • annie
        July 14, 2010, 7:36 pm

        i wish there were less religious people in general but i don’t wish there were less jews. i’m an american so i embrace assimilation. i don’t think people should mate or fall in love w/ race or ethnicity being a determining feature. i think all kids should be raised in assimilated non religious schools. especially children should be properly socialized without prejudice and w/appreciation for all cultures. i don’t think it should be legal to discriminate wrt housing or neighborhoods. teaching children not to associate or interact outside their race or ethnicity is teaching them bad morals.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 10:54 pm

        Sure. And when there are a billion Jews in the world, I won’t care as much that you wish there were less of them.

        “Lenni Brenner is rejoicing over those Jews who have accepted their common humanity.”

        Sorry, but he didn’t mention that, and nothing he said leads to believe that that’s the case.

      • RoHa
        July 15, 2010, 6:54 am

        When Jews assimilate and intermarry they are accepting that they are the same as the rest of us. That is accepting common humanity.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2010, 6:58 am

        That’s pretty trite. So if people (Muslims, Christians, Jews) choose to be religious and marry within the faith, they are not accepting common humanity?

      • Cliff
        July 15, 2010, 9:57 am

        I think it’s a choice. If there is a campaign to apply pressure within one’s community to marry other members of the tribe, then I’d say that’s crossing the line.

        If a Jew wants to only marry Jews, that’s their individual choice. If a Jew thinks Jews should only marries Jews. That’s him or her, projecting their ‘values’ on others. If they want to institutionalize these values, that’s even worse.

        Anyways, I think all would agree that you’re a tribalist. No different from those settlers. In fact, what you said here, sums you up perfectly:

        If Israel eventually withdraws from the territories and there is a two-state solution, it will be because that is what we Jews want, not because you people want it. And that is the way it should be.

        There won’t be a withdrawal. I think there will be more bloodshed and suffering, with more maniacal, self-loving, supremacist Jews like yourself pulling the trigger and dragging other people down to your level.

        I think the endgame is One-State. One thing, prolific jerks like yourself do not take into account is that the world isn’t going to end anytime soon. Life will go on without this Jewish-Holocaust-Choseness meme. I think normal, rational people will continue to wise up to the wars in the ME and naturally gravitate towards the Israel-Palestine conflict.

        Clowns like yourself will right there along the way to scream antisemitism, Jew-this/that at them but that will only reinforce their convictions.

        In the long run, the Palestinians will win. And things will return to as they should have.

        A Jewish State has no right to exist in Palestine. Go find some deserted island to build your country club.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2010, 11:40 am

        “If a Jew wants to only marry Jews, that’s their individual choice. If a Jew thinks Jews should only marries Jews. That’s him or her, projecting their ‘values’ on others. If they want to institutionalize these values, that’s even worse.”

        Well, of course. I mean, the religion promotes marrying within the faith, as do many if not most religions. With Jews, however, there is a little sociological imperative simply because there are very few Jews in the world. When you’re a religion of a billion people, marrying outside of the faith is not as big a deal. It would not be a big deal for Jews either if there were, say, 100 million of us instead of 14 or 15 million. And unfortunately, while most Jews do assimilate, we are assimilating into a society where most people are not Jewish and thus are losing our co-religionists in the process.

        “I think the endgame is One-State. One thing, prolific jerks like yourself do not take into account is that the world isn’t going to end anytime soon. Life will go on without this Jewish-Holocaust-Choseness meme. I think normal, rational people will continue to wise up to the wars in the ME and naturally gravitate towards the Israel-Palestine conflict.”

        Again, I’d suggest you look at history. If it is a one-state solution you want, it is a one-state solution you will get, but it will be a Jewish state. States do not usually commit national suicide and agree to dissolve themselves.

        “In the long run, the Palestinians will win. And things will return to as they should have.”

        I highly doubt it. The Palestinians cannot win a war against the Jews, and the international community is not going to help them overrun the Jewish state with refugees. In addition, most European leaders understand the one-state solution for what it is: an attempt to reverse 1948 and destroy Israel, not an attempt to establish a democracy.

        In the end, there will be an agreement of some kind based on the Clinton parameters, and the one-state solution, which has virtually no support in the Middle East, will be what is has been for decades, a rejected idea.

    • Chu
      July 13, 2010, 11:21 am

      “hateful remarks about them?” :)
      Aw Homphi, is it that time of the month again?
      guaranteed that Homphi will chime in when ‘his
      people’ are criticized. Phil, you should apologize
      to this poor fella. He had it soo tough.

  2. MRW
    July 13, 2010, 11:01 am

    So did all of Frum’s father’s family leave Czarist Russia and move to Europe? Is that how they got murdered? Because if some of them stayed in Czarist Russia, they died in WWII as a result of that terrible war. They didn’t have German concentration camps in Russia during WWII; General Zhukov had the Germans on the run for two years after Stalingrad.

    • annie
      July 13, 2010, 12:09 pm

      mrw, my guess is they did leave russia for europe probably prior to his immigration to canada in the 30′s. according to this chart over 250,000 jews emigrated from russia to europe between 1880 and 1928.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 12:15 pm

        oh, before anyone jumps down my throat and asks if i’m implying something , the answer is yes, i am implying i understood frum’s reference of ‘who remained behind in Europe’ to mean they actually got themselves from russia to europe.

  3. wondering jew
    July 13, 2010, 11:23 am

    MRW- If you’ll read carefully Frum’s father was born in the Czarist empire, which included much of the territory where the einsatzgruppen did their work. Are you implying that no Jews were killed in Russia because there were no concentration camps there?

    • Berthe
      July 13, 2010, 11:33 am

      Russia lost between 10 and 20 million people in WWII – highlighting the problem with this numbers thing: they don’t have a number at the correct MILLION. The number of Vietnamese who died in our war with that country is between 2 and 7 million. These numbers amount to saying, “Who knows?” But you have to say that the number of Jews who died in Nazi concentration camps is 6 million . . . because you BELIEVE it. Like Ahmadinejad said, its become a religion.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 11:42 am

        Let’s cut right to chase, Berthe. How many Jews do you believe were murdered by the Nazis during WWII?

      • Psychopathic god
        July 13, 2010, 12:20 pm

        if my father had been “murdered by the Nazis during WWII,” would that be the psychological equivalent of 1000 gazillion people murdered?

        Wouldn’t that be my WHOLE WORLD, a suffering so intense that no numerical convention could quite capture it?

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 12:21 pm

        hopmi, i think it is pretty clear berthe thinks once figures get into the multiple millions precise figures become speculative.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 12:43 pm

        I’m suspicious when people start to compare the number of dead Russians to the number of dead Jews. People who die by gassing in concentration camps should not be compared to casualties of war. This is not about comparing numbers of dead.

        The reason the number of Jews is more precise than Russians or Vietnamese is because the Nazis, may their names be erased, kept fairly meticulous records. So the number can be roughly estimated. Some historians say the number is slightly higher and some say the number is slightly lower. It’s really beside the point; the point is that greater than half the Jewish population of Europe were murdered during the Holocaust.

      • eljay
        July 13, 2010, 1:01 pm

        >> … i think it is pretty clear … once figures get into the multiple millions precise figures become speculative.

        It’s also been made abundantly clear that, while all genocides are bad (bad genocides, bad!), the Holocaust was simply the most bestest one of all, yessiree! It *must* remain special – it cannot become “regular”, like all those other, lesser genocides. So let everyone else get over their old wounds (the healing of which resolves nothing) and find “new narratives”! But don’t you dare touch the Holocaust.

        Now, where’s my hug…?

      • Cliff
        July 13, 2010, 1:08 pm

        hophmi, just call Berthe a denier and be on your way. You’re BORING and predictable.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 1:10 pm

        Honestly, I have no idea.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:13 pm

        “But don’t you dare touch the Holocaust.”

        Why do you want to touch the Holocaust? Do you not believe it happened?

        Maybe you need to read a little bit more about it.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:21 pm

        I didn’t call her a denier, did I? I’m offering her the chance to distinguish herself from the deniers. Usually when people start to question the numbers and then start talking about how many Russians died, the next stop on the train is usually David Irving.

        Berthe, since you say you honestly have no idea, I’ll tell you: It was about 6 million, give or take a few hundred thousand.

        There are myriad books on the Holocaust. There is the US Holocaust Museum. There is the Berlin Holocaust Memorial and Museum. There’s the Wannsee Villa, which has a large exhibit on the German extermination machine and how the Holocaust was carried out. Visit any one of them, and then say something retarded like saying you have no idea how many people died, and Jews and everybody else are practicing some sort of religion because we committed the sin of adopting a rough (and it’s not so rough) estimate. Maybe then you’ll understand why most people find it offensive.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 1:29 pm

        Mel Gibson was grilled by – I think – Diane Sawyer in the wake of his father’s comments about the 6 million number and his own rant. She nailed him to the mat to say that he “believed” the 6 million number. That was interesting to me, that (1) its all about belief, or she would have a list of 6 million individuals or SOME proof; and (2) not believing the 6 million number makes someone a “Holocaust denier.” If you don’t have 6 million individuals, what are you basing it on? Precisely what? There must be some methodology to get that number.

        After that Mel Gibson bit, I noticed things. Chris Matthews telling Richard Ben Veniste that Yad Vashem is a list of 6 million, so, per Matthews, its an absolute fact and Ben Veniste nods, but with a slightly confused look. Yad Vashem lists 3 million, is based on testimonials and some internet sources say that there appear to be many repeats of names. And I would bet money that Ben Veniste knew all that as he’s agreeing with Matthews that theres a solid list of 6 million.

        Whats the truth? Its not like it doesn’t matter with the Holocaust running the whole world and especially US foreign policy. George Stephanopoulos tells Ahmadinejad that the Holocaust is “the most studied event in world history” and Stephanopoulos knows that in the countries where it happened, historians would have to fear prison if they disputed the official version.

        Being a reasonable person, I have to infer that the 6 million number is not trustworthy.

      • kapok
        July 13, 2010, 1:41 pm

        the chase? you want to discuss “the chase”? Why do the Palestinians have to pay for your precious Holy Coast? Why ain’t Israel bombing Poland or Lithuania?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 1:42 pm

        ” I’ll tell you: It was about 6 million, give or take a few hundred thousand.”

        ‘I am not throwing out all these T-shirts, mugs, sweatshirts and carry bags cause some anti-Semitie doesn’t like my numbers! 6 mil it is and 6 mil it’ll stay!’

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:42 pm

        I’m not going to have this discussion with you, Berthe. I’m not an historian. Go to your local library and read a book about it if you want to learn about the methodology. Or visit a museum. Or look on the net. Or stick your head in the sand and pretend you’re an ostrich, which should not be a stretch. You say things like this: “with the Holocaust running the whole world” and you wonder why I find you offensive and question your motives.

      • Psychopathic god
        July 13, 2010, 1:44 pm

        Maybe you need to read a little bit more about it.

        as long as its the hophmi approved version, read, you should read.

        Not been to Wannsee but there’s a very rich Wannssee website where actual documents are posted. I learned a couple things (that hophmi would probably not approve of):
        1. that Wannssee did NOT convene to plot a “final solution,” certainly not mass extermination as a final solution.
        2. that the Wannsee documents were not discovered until AFTER the Nuremberg trials.

        little mooshing up of history going on but hey, that’s what wars are for.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 1:45 pm

        “the point is that greater than half the Jewish population of Europe were murdered during the Holocaust.”

        Oh yeah, that’s the point all right. And because all those Jews were murdered we mustn’t offend hophmi.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 1:48 pm

        “People who die by gassing in concentration camps”
        Only a small proprtion died that way. Don’t you know that? The greatest majority were simply shot, or worked to death and then cremated. I would think the number who died just in the brutal transport is higher than the number actually gassed, but never mind, I’m no expert. Gassed it is.

      • Psychopathic god
        July 13, 2010, 1:50 pm

        as I type I’m listening to Prof. Eric Cline teach Jewish history, specifically, about the Exodus.
        Apparently Torah says 600,000 Hebrew men of fighting age Exodus-ed Egypt, together with their wives, families, and two midwives.

        Cline says the number cannot possibly be accurate: total would have amounted to about 1.25 million; pharaoh would have noticed they had not punched in at the brickyards; would have taken over a month for that many people to cross the Sea of Reids, not enough midwives, etc.
        Cline says number is more likely 6,000, maybe even just 600.

        And that would have included some non-Hebrew Egyptians.

        just sayin’

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 1:51 pm

        And eljay, you gotta keep in mind that the Holocaust happened out of a clear blue sky, during a century of uninterrupted peace and prosperity in Europe. That what makes it so horrible!

      • Psychopathic god
        July 13, 2010, 1:55 pm

        someday when you all really, really come to love and trust me, I’ll treat you to PG’s very own, TM and c-in-a-circle Thesis on Why the US Holocaust Museum is harmful to Jews and should be closed.

        but I, um, don’t think that moment has arrived.

      • eljay
        July 13, 2010, 1:56 pm

        >> Why do you want to touch the Holocaust? Do you not believe it happened?

        What makes you think I don’t believe it happened? Of course it happened, and it’s the bestest one ever! Everyone else’s genocide is lame by comparison. You should be proud.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 2:09 pm

        Well, you seem to think it’s a joke, that’s all. I’m not sure why you’d treat the Holocaust as a joke.

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 3:10 pm

        I don’t think any reputable historian challenges the 5 to 6 million figure for the Holocaust. Hilberg put it at 5.1 million. On this point I’m on Hophmi’s side and I don’t get why people on a blog on the I/P conflict feel the need to get into this, unless you have good reason to think the figure is much less and there is no such reason.

        Where hophmi gets ugly is here–

        “I’m suspicious when people start to compare the number of dead Russians to the number of dead Jews. People who die by gassing in concentration camps should not be compared to casualties of war. This is not about comparing numbers of dead.”

        The number of civilian dead in Russia was certainly in the millions and might exceed 10 million. There is something a little sick about the way many intellectuals rate the relative importance of various mass murders. The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union was a massive act of slaughter, one of the worst in history. I know the Holocaust was an attempt at wiping out all Jews, and is different, but once you reach a certain level of evil, what sort of mindset gets offended because somebody compares 10 million murders in one case with 6 million murders conducted in a different manner? A lot of people do get offended, but it’s bizarre.

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 3:12 pm

        “There is something a little sick about the way many intellectuals rate the relative importance of various mass murders. The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union was a massive act of slaughter, one of the worst in history.”

        Of course here I contradict myself. What I meant was “one of the largest in history”.

      • Colin Murray
        July 13, 2010, 3:18 pm

        I agree completely. Six million is within a reasonable margin of error, and quibbling over numbers both makes me queasy and distracts from contemporary issues such as “how does the Holocaust 65 years ago make supporting Israel our (American) responsibility?”

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 3:19 pm

        BTW, the more recent estimates for the Soviet death toll in WWII is 27 million, with 12-14 million civilian.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 3:29 pm

        Because the idea is that Jews are somehow being self-serving by not noting how many Russians died during WWII. It’s the nature of the comparison. The Russians made huge sacrifices during the war, and I’m thankful for that. All the same, it is simply comparing apples and oranges to compare what happened to the Jews to what happened to Russians. One cannot compare a genocide to war casualties without diminishing the genocide.

      • syvanen
        July 13, 2010, 4:27 pm

        People who die by gassing in concentration camps should not be compared to casualties of war.

        Wrong answer Hophni, 3 million Russian POWs died in concentration camps. That is not considered “war casualities”. Many were deliberately starved to death.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 4:41 pm

        And they should be commemorated appropriately. The original argument was 10-20 million Soviet dead, not the 3.3-3.5 million who died in camps and from forced starvation (and by the way, the number comes from the US Holocaust Museum, which exists because my community lobbied for it). It is still not the same thing as the much more organized campaign of extermination conducted against the Jews.

      • Dan Kelly
        July 13, 2010, 4:47 pm

        The fact that even one Jew was killed during WWII simply because he or she was a Jew is disgusting and unconscionable.

        If the Nazis were busy systematically killing 6 million Jews, one wonders how they would have had time to fight a war.

        The six million number has a history within certain Jewish circles previous to WWII, and it evidently ties into the number six itself:

        “Shavuot occurs on the sixth day of the month of Sivan. Most of us are quite aware of the importance of the number seven in Judaism. But, the number six is an important number as well. If the number seven represents a sense of completion or “fullness” as indicated by the similarities of the word “Sheva” (meaning “seven”, in Hebrew) with “save’a” (meaning “satisfaction” or “fullness”), then the number six is a “lead-in” to this process. It is the “last step” before “closure”.

        link to mazornet.com

        The number 600,000 is also mentioned as the number of adult males, or Israelite “fighting men,” who left Egypt with Moses. It is also the number of “Jewish souls” according to Kabalah.

        6, 600,00, 6 million.

        Those interested in arcane ideologies and mystical fantasies may choose to get caught up in these numbers games.

        Those interested in humanity need not.

        To repeat: The fact that even one human being who identified as Jewish (or as anything else that was considered unworthy at the time) was killed as a result of this identification is disgusting and unconscionable.

        That’s all that matters. Trying to determine how many people were killed in various genocides does nothing to help humanity. It’s a futile exercise, and only serves the agenda of whatever entrenched interest has power at a given time. It’s completely dehumanizing.

        One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 5:21 pm

        Then, wouldn’t Yad Vashem have those records and be able to say 6 million based on those records rather than on testimonials? How are the testimonials researched or are they?

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 8:15 pm

        donald 3:10 pm, i agree. i also think most people don’t even know how to conceptualize that many people. it’s like the population of arizona vs the population of colorado. anyway you look at it it’s a horrible amount of death. and i absolutely agree w/this:

        There is something a little sick about the way many intellectuals rate the relative importance of various mass murders. ………once you reach a certain level of evil, what sort of mindset gets offended because somebody compares 10 million murders in one case with 6 million murders conducted in a different manner?

        so much tragedy.

      • potsherd
        July 13, 2010, 9:39 pm

        I’m suspicious when people start to compare the number of dead Russians to the number of dead Jews. People who die by gassing in concentration camps should not be compared to casualties of war. This is not about comparing numbers of dead.

        How about Jews who died in concentration camps of disease and starvation, not gassing? How about Jews who died outside concentration camps? How about Russian POWs who died in concentration camps, although not by gassing? How about Russian Jewish POWs – where do you count them?

        Killed is killed. Dead is dead. One corpse is not privileged over another.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 10:00 pm

        Actually, that 6 million number is the whole ball of wax because people who don’t accept it – accept it on faith alone, apparently, because there is no objective proof – have been reviled as “Holocaust deniers.” And thats been done for the agenda of “Israel has a right to exist.” I distrust anyone who uses that “right to exist” phrase. Thats manipulation; its meant to imply Jews will be killed, the population of Israel will be killed. If Israel goes the way of the Soviet Union, so be it.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 10:08 pm

        Geez, how many times has the news media pounded us that we are supposed to hate Ahmadinejad because he’s a Holocaust denier? Thats supposed to explain the need to attack Iran, Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier so he might want to drop a nuclear bomb on us if he got one! We’re supposed to be OK with a war on Iran that would cause huge numbers of deaths and economic disaster because we’re supposed to hate this one man because he doesn’t toe the official line on something that from the 1940s. If thats not the Holocaust running the world, what is?

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 10:13 pm

        You want to treasure that 6 million number as some Jewish treasure but here we are 9 years into a war on the Muslim world that any way you look at it has to do with Israel. If you accept the official version of 9/11, thats supposed to be one of bin Laden’s 3 reasons to attack the West, Israel’s abuse of the Palestinians. So, it is not just your Jewish treasure; it is affecting all of us.

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 10:18 pm

        Berthe, what do you mean by “no objective proof”? If you mean we don’t know the exact number, sure, but we for damn sure know it is in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 million, perhaps slightly less, perhaps slightly more. I looked it up just now and some estimates (I saw one in William Shirer’s old book) go as low as 4 million and one as high as 7 million, with Hilberg saying 5.1 million and others saying 6 million. So the number is reasonably well established compared to some other mass slaughters. Here’s a website that discusses (briefly) the methodology–

        link to holocaust-history.org

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 10:26 pm

        “Because the idea is that Jews are somehow being self-serving by not noting how many Russians died during WWII. It’s the nature of the comparison.”

        Some of what is said in the comments section when this topic comes up makes me uneasy. I don’t think there are any reputable historians who deny that the Holocaust killed (taking the extreme figures) between 4 and 7.5 million Jews and I don’t know why a bunch of laypeople think they are demography experts.

        “The Russians made huge sacrifices during the war, and I’m thankful for that. All the same, it is simply comparing apples and oranges to compare what happened to the Jews to what happened to Russians. One cannot compare a genocide to war casualties without diminishing the genocide.”

        The Russian civilian deaths are not simply “war casualties”–they are the victims of an immense slaughter that occurred because Hitler invaded. I simply don’t agree that it diminishes the deliberate murder of 6 million Jews to compare it to the mass random slaughter of over 10 million Russian civilians. I know it’s become commonplace to say in a hushed voice that one can’t compare this particular act of immense inconceivable evil with this other act of immense inconceivable evil because then you’re diminishing the second act, but to me this is a form of intellectualizing that is itself dehumanizing. Yes, Hitler deliberately set out to exterminate some groups–in other cases his men just killed people at random. You end up with millions of innocent people dead in either case.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 10:31 pm

        Simply put, the war of extermination against the Jews was without parallel during WWII. It was systematic, notorious, and open in a way that other genocides during the century were not, and it was at the culmination of hundreds of years of antisemitic buildup. And it was done in many ways, starting with mass shootings, progressing to gassings, and reaching its climax in concentration camps.

        At the end of it, more than half the Jewish population of Europe was dead, and most of the survivors were homeless. That is simply very different from the other examples here.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 10:32 pm

        That’s because they usually are, and they ignore the mountain of evidence that estimate is based on.

      • Donald
        July 13, 2010, 10:36 pm

        The reductio ad absurdum of this line of thought came in an op ed piece by Nicholas Kristof in the NYT a few years ago. (I’m not going to track it down). Kristof said that the number of deaths in Darfur was in the hundreds of thousands and the number in the Congo was in the millions, but even though the ratio was something like 10 to 1, Kristof said Darfur was morally more significant because it was “genocide”. So basically you have innocent people being raped and murdered in both places, on an individual level dying horrible deaths as bad in one place as in the other, but yet for Kristof the mass rapes and slaughters of the Congo, though far more numerous, were less important. To me that is insane.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 10:40 pm

        It’s not our “Jewish treasure.” Go take your hate elsewhere.

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 7:32 am

        >> Well, you seem to think it’s a joke, that’s all. I’m not sure why you’d treat the Holocaust as a joke.

        I don’t treat it as a joke. The genocide known as the Holocaust is a tragic event, as tragic as every other genocide. Sadly, Israel and “the Jews” have been using it for decades to justify everything from ethnic cleansing and land theft to murder and the suppression of free speech. That is the joke – more like a fucking disgrace, actually.

      • sherbrsi
        July 14, 2010, 7:57 am

        One cannot compare a genocide to war casualties without diminishing the genocide.

        My killing is grander than yours.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 9:42 am

        Did I say that? No. So why don’t you stop with the misquoting?

        A death during battle is not the same as a cold-blooded murder. They are morally different. To treat the murder as if it were the same as a death on the battlefield is wrong. It also obscures the historical truth, which is that the genocide of the Jews was a special case as far as the Nazis were concerned. That is why it is treated differently than the killing of Russian POWs. Unfortunately, mistreating POWs during war is not uncommon, even if the scope of the mistreatment during WWII was extreme. The Soviets are themselves estimated to have killed anywhere from half a million to a million German POWs. But the systematic extermination of Jews during war, the way in which it was done, is unique and uniquely frightening.

        Again, I invite all of you to visit the US Holocaust Museum to learn about the Holocaust.

      • sherbrsi
        July 14, 2010, 9:57 am

        Unfortunately, mistreating POWs during war is not uncommon,

        Neither are genocides.

        Try as you might you are not coming up with any credible reason as to why genocide needs to be a put on a pedestal over other forms of killings, especially the Jewish one. Yes, the case can be made that it is given more important to by Jews, which is only natural. But to say that recognizing other forms of mass murders, even those who casualties have matched and exceeded the death toll of the Holocaust, over the detail of the method of killing, is diminishing death itself to retain the exceptionalism you want to provide to the Jewish genocide.

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 10:27 am

        >> But the systematic extermination of Jews during war, the way in which it was done, is unique and uniquely frightening.

        The Nazis also systematically exterminated gentile Poles, gypsies, homosexuals and disabled people: link to en.wikipedia.org

        I find their “holocaust” to be just as “unique and uniquely frightening” as that of Jewish people.

      • sherbrsi
        July 14, 2010, 10:34 am

        I find their “holocaust” to be just as “unique and uniquely frightening” as that of Jewish people.

        And it is important to note that homosexuals were persecuted for more than 20 years, even after the Jews and survivors were liberated from the camps.

        But of course what remains “unique and uniquely frightening” is the Jewish experience.

      • Donald
        July 14, 2010, 10:42 am

        ” death during battle is not the same as a cold-blooded murder. They are morally different. To treat the murder as if it were the same as a death on the battlefield is wrong”

        You keep talking about death in battle and I keep mentioning over 10 million Russian CIVILIANS that were killed. I think what’s happening is that you wish to keep it on a level where you have a point–killing soldiers isn’t the same as murdering children because they are Jewish. (Though killing soldiers in a war one side has started unjustly isn’t actually much better than plain old mass murder.) But when it’s killing millions of innocent people because of insane racial hatred and killing millions of civilians at random, there’s not a big moral difference. I know people claim there is, I see this all the time, and there is something dehumanizing about it.

        If the Nazis had tactical nukes and had killed 100 million Russians blasting their way to Moscow, I suspect we’d still have people saying this wasn’t as bad as the Holocaust, because it wasn’t deliberate extermination of a group. Of course they didn’t have nukes and they “only” killed about 27 million, roughly half of whom were civilian.

      • Chu
        July 14, 2010, 10:55 am

        Donald, Hophmi’s issue is that it is an especially terrifying tragedy and anything else can not be compared. Just accept that in Hophmi’s worldview, there is no budging on this issue, period.
        You’re trying to rationalize this issue with an irrational person. And he’s likely 20 years younger than you, so he definitely has experienced more and is more sensitive than you’ll ever be.
        And of course he’ll say 100 millions Nazis killing 100 million Russians doesn’t compare. They’re not Jewish. Duh.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 10:57 am

        Yes, and what does the first sentence of “Ethnic Criteria” section say?

        “The paramilitary campaign to remove certain classes of persons, but primarily and above all Jews, from Germany using methods of extreme brutalily is known as the Holocaust.”

        It’s funny how people here interpret any talk of the campaign to exterminate the Jews as automatically diminishing other campaigns of genocide undertaken by Hitler. It’s as if they feel threatened.

        Of course, the irony is that Jewish organizations, which have done more than any others to make sure the Holocaust is not forgotten, have never told the story as an exclusively Jewish narrative. I certainly learned about the disabled, the Roma, and the homosexuals when I learned about the Holocaust in school. The US Holocaust Museum certainly is not limited to the Jewish part of the Holocaust. So if you want to preserve the memories of those who suffered during the Holocaust, please support the US Holocaust Museum or Yad Vashem and any of the other many organizations out there.

        Oh well, there are only so many times I can tell people to pick up a book and read, and only so many times I can tell people that they are acting like bigots whether they want to accept it or not. In the end, I tend to doubt people are really concerned about methodology and all that, in the same way I tended to doubt that people who said the Mossad perpetrated 9/11 were really interested in the “truth” about 9/11.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 11:11 am

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        “The paramilitary campaign to remove certain classes of persons, but primarily and above all Jews, from Germany using methods of extreme brutalily is known as the Holocaust. The Holocaust was carried out above all by German forces and certain collaborative persons, Germans and otherwise. As the war started, millions of the Jews were concentrated into the closed Ghettos. By 1941 large massacres of Jews took place, and, by December 1941, Hitler decided to completely exterminate European Jews. In all, more than 60% of the Jews in Europe were murdered in the Holocaust. The world’s Jewish population was reduced by a third, from roughly 16.6 million in 1939 to about 11 million in 1946.[4] Even sixty years later, there are still fewer Jews in the world today than there were prior to 1940.[5]

        In January 1942, during the Wannsee conference, several Nazi leaders discussed the details of the “Final Solution to the Jewish Question” (Endlösung der Judenfrage). Dr. Josef Bühler urged Reinhard Heydrich to proceed with the Final Solution in the General Government. They began to systematically deport Jewish populations from the ghettos and all occupied territories to the seven camps designated as Vernichtungslager, or extermination camps: Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Maly Trostenets, Sobibór and Treblinka. Sebastian Haffner published the analysis in 1978 that Hitler from December 1941 accepted the failure of his goal to dominate Europe forever on his declaration of war against the United States, but that his withdrawal and apparent calm thereafter was sustained by the achievement of his second goal—the extermination of the Jews.[6] Even as the Nazi war machine faltered in the last years of the war, precious military resources such as fuel, transport, munitions, soldiers and industrial resources were still being heavily diverted away from the war and towards the death camps.

        Poland, home of the largest Jewish community in the world before the war, had had over 90% of its Jewish population, or about 3,000,000 Jews, killed. The penalty imposed by the Germans for hiding Jews was death, and this was carried out mercilessly. In spite of this some Poles hid Jewish children and families and saved their lives at risk to their own families. Despite detailed reports on the Holocaust reaching western leaders, public awareness in the United States and the Western countries of genocidal mass murder of Jews in Poland was extremely poor at the time; the first references in The New York Times in 1942 were not front-page stories, and these news articles were more in the nature of unconfirmed reports.

        Greece, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Lithuania, Bohemia, the Netherlands, Slovakia, and Latvia each had over 70% of their Jewish population destroyed. Belgium, Romania, Luxembourg, Norway, and Estonia lost around half of their Jewish population, the Soviet Union over one third of its Jews, and even countries such as France and Italy had each seen around a quarter of their Jewish population killed. Denmark was able to evacuate almost all of the Jews in their country to nearby Sweden, which was neutral during the war. Using everything from fishing boats to private yachts, the Danes whisked the Danish Jews out of harm’s way. Some Jews outside Europe under Nazi occupation were also affected by the Holocaust and treatment from the Nazis.”

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 11:26 am

        In my experience, there are commonly two arguments supporting the significance of the Holocaust. First up: “Yes, there are many genocides, some worse than the Holocaust. But it’s not about numbers! The Holocaust is unique in human history!”

        Then one points out numerous genocides or atrocities perpetrated against specific groups of individuals, targetted for their race/nationality/beliefs, which renders the Holocaust “common” (i.e., not unique).

        At this point, argument number two comes into play: “Yes, those genocides were very bad, but more Jews were killed by Hitler than individuals were killed in any of those genocides.” What was not a numbers game becomes a numbers game.

        So, not only is the Holocaust the bestest of all genocides – “unique in human history” and/or “the most people killed” – but it has been used and continues to be used to justify everything from ethnic cleansing and land theft to murder and the suppression of free speech. That, as I indicated earlier, is a fucking disgrace.

      • potsherd
        July 14, 2010, 11:29 am

        What an arrogant twit you are – assuming that posters here don’t know about the Holocaust.

        What is the issue here? What is the argument about?

        It is about Hophmi’s claim that the attempted genocide of the Jews in WWII is “diminished” if compared to any other group of casualties.

        What does “diminished” mean? Not reducing the estimated number of those killed. It means diminishing the moral force of the genocide. Not, however, diminishing the guilt of the perpetrators. That is not in question here, although it might perhaps motivate some Holocaust deniers.

        Does it mean diminishing the suffering of the victims? Not really. The survivors in the camps often suffered more than those who were gassed, taken right off the death trains into the “showers”.

        No, it means not singling out one group of victims as morally special. And if these victims are not morally special, then their survivors are not morally special. This is the rock of faith on which hophmi resist his case, that the Holocaust has sanctified the Jewish people because they were singled out for this treatment, and thus they are privileged in ways no other people can be. As, for example, being given the right to dispossess another people who were not responsible for their suffering.

        Any comparison of the victims of the Holocaust (see, we capitalize it, like the name of God) with any other set of victims would diminish this sanctity, reduce this privileged status, and thus must be rejected.

        Which is, of course, total bullshit.

        Let us grant, for the sake of the argument , hophmi’s premise. Let us agree that in singling out the Jews as their victims, the Nazis committed a unique crime, a crime more heinous than the great mass of their other crimes against lesser victims. What does this have to do with the Jews, the victims?

        Nothing.

        Death is not sanctifying.

        If the Nazis committed a unique crime, then this is about the Nazis, what they did. About their guilt. If we accept hophmi’s premise, the Nazis are even more guilty for the attempted genocide of the Jews than they are for the deaths they caused of other persons, even when those other deaths were greater in number.

        Let us then condemn the Nazis. But there is no reason to sanctify the Jews.

        And no reason to suppose the next genocide will target them.

      • Chu
        July 14, 2010, 11:34 am

        Sadly, this historic tragedy has been used as a bludgeon for criticism of the state of Israel. There were 9 holocaust films produced the year Obama was elected. Are there no other historic topics that Hollywood could explore? Although, Armenian genocide may be a boon for next year’s academy awards though. Depends on how Turkey plays their hand
        this year.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 11:50 am

        It’s easy to lampoon the arguments when you mischaracterize and distort them.

        I have never met anyone who said that the Holocaust is unique because of the numbers alone. The numbers are staggering enough, and for Jews, the percentages are even more staggering; in Poland, over 90 percent of the Jews were murdered, a total of 3 million people. And a good deal of would have been difficult to accomplish it without the participation and acquiescence of the Poles themselves. The same, unfortunately, holds true for the gentiles in most of the Europeans countries. For all of the righteous gentiles, and we do everything in the Jewish community to honor them, there were not enough.

        Several things, to my mind, make the Holocaust unique, at least in the Western world. The first is that the extermination of the Jews was the culmination of hundreds of years of antisemitism in Europe, driven by deicide charges, blood libels, and the like, and executed through repeated expulsions, forced conversions, and massacres. The history of antisemitism in Europe is well-documented, and the Holocaust was its culmination.

        The second is that it represented a marriage of ancient hatreds and modern technology and thought. This was not a pogrom. It was not even a sustained massacre. This was something that took a good deal of thought and planning. It was a product of the scientific process; several methods were tried, before a final solution of extermination camps and gassings were arrived at. It was also the result of a good deal of social planning; the Holocaust began with a boycott, progressed to discriminatory legislation, progressed to pogroms such as Kristallnacht, and during the war, became mass shootings and gassings, ghettos, liquidations, and extermination. And it was not a part of the war, either. Many, many people were gassed in the camps in late 1944 and early 1945 when the war was already a foregone conclusion.

        And of course, all of it was done by people who were supposed to be the most cultured and civilized on the planet.

        Again, I am not trying to diminish other genocides. There are lessons to be learned from all of them, and each should be remembered. But these are the reasons why we study the Holocaust and why so much has been written on it.

      • potsherd
        July 14, 2010, 12:17 pm

        And it was not a part of the war, either. Many, many people were gassed in the camps in late 1944 and early 1945 when the war was already a foregone conclusion.

        This statement insults and diminishes those persons, combatants and noncombatants, who were killed between late 1944 and VE day in the war.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 12:20 pm

        “What an arrogant twit you are – assuming that posters here don’t know about the Holocaust.”

        Why is that arrogant? Maybe people really don’t know. When somebody says let’s compare the Jewish experience with the Catholic experience during WWII, I’m disinclined to believe he really knows about the Holocaust.

        “No, it means not singling out one group of victims as morally special.”

        You said it, not me. So do you not believe that anything is owed to the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust by the international community? That’s OK, but then again, I can’t understand why you think the Palestinians are special victims either, given all of the worse off people in this world. Nevertheless, only the Palestinians have an entire UN committee and UN agency devoted to themselves. So if one victim should not be morally privileged over another, why do you privilege the Palestinians over all other victims?

        “And no reason to suppose the next genocide will target them.”

        Yes, of course, if you see nothing unique about what happened to Jews, and basically ignore the hundreds of years of antisemitism they experienced, downplay antisemitism in the world today, and so on, then I can see how you can so flippantly state that conclusion.

        Indeed, that’s the whole problem. You downplay the Holocaust (and in English we do capitalize proper nouns), and downplay the legitimate fears Jews have about demagogues like Ahmadinejad who hold Holocaust denial conferences and threaten Israel’s existence.

        Listen, I get it; you don’t care. I accept that. That’s really a major difference between Jews collectively pre-Holocaust and post-Holocaust; we have stopped depending on other people to care about us. Before, we lived everywhere as a minority. If the majority didn’t care, we ended up in exile, in ghettos, Catholic by forced conversion, or dead.

        Then, of course, the Enlightenment came along with theories of liberty and human freedom, and we figured that would alleviate our problems. Of course, then Dreyfuss happened, and then the Holocaust happened. So since then, we have stopped depending on other people to care what happens to us, and to some extent, we have stopped caring about what others think, because over time, they haven’t really given a rats’ ass about us. Again, you know, the Holocaust, or if you like, that period where the West didn’t give enough of rats’ ass to keep six million of us, and 6 million others, from being murdered. Yeah, we reacted to that. We made sure our state was founded and we got it up and running.

        I can’t make it more clear and honest than that, and frankly, I couldn’t give a rats’ ass about whether any of you get pissed off by it. Phil seems to care because he is stuck in the mindset that these gentiles will reciprocate for his caring and he needs to be one of “the good Jews” for that to happen; I don’t, and that’s the difference between us. If Israel eventually withdraws from the territories and there is a two-state solution, it will be because that is what we Jews want, not because you people want it. And that is the way it should be.

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 12:21 pm

        >> It’s funny how people here interpret any talk of the campaign to exterminate the Jews as automatically diminishing other campaigns of genocide undertaken by Hitler. It’s as if they feel threatened.

        You’re a funny guy, just like RW! People don’t feel threatened by “any talk” of the Holocaust, but they are disgusted by the way the Holocaust’s “bestest ever!” status is used to trivialize other, equally horrific chapters in human suffering, and by how it is used as justification for on-going theft, murder, ethnic cleansing and suppression of free speech.

        It’s nice that stuff like that doesn’t seem to bother you.

      • potsherd
        July 14, 2010, 12:21 pm

        Exactly, Chu. Hophmi disingenuously declares that the attention paid to this event is entirely disinterested, owing only to its historical uniqueness. When it fact, it is a political issue and the motives of those who constantly bring it up are political – to perpetuate the privileged-victim status of Jews and justify the crimes of Israel.

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 12:32 pm

        >> Several things, to my mind, make the Holocaust unique … Again, I am not trying to diminish other genocides.

        No, not trying to dimish – just working extra hard to demonstrate that the Holocaust is the “bestest genocide ever!”

        There was something I read re. the Armenian genocide. Apparently the Turks would take a bunch of Armenians to a river, tie them up individually, then tie them together, shoot (at least) one of them dead and toss the whole group into the river, so that the dead would drag the living down until all were killed. Effective, and cheap on bullets, too.

        The Japanese did some nasty shit, too:
        link to gendercide.org

        These are all horrific things…but, shucks, I guess they just doesn’t measure up to the Holocaust, so let’s put ‘em on the back-burner and keep talking about how Israelis suffered the Holocaust and therefore are entitled to the Promised Land.

      • eljay
        July 14, 2010, 12:37 pm

        >> link to en.wikipedia.org
        >> It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides … as scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians …

        Wow, one of the first modern genocides! I wonder if the Armenians get to keep this “feather in their cap”. Nah, probably not – being first can’t be as good as being “the bestest ever”.

      • Chu
        July 14, 2010, 12:39 pm

        It’s completely over exploited for political gain and it been that way since, well the 1970′s? Hophmi has said he has no relatives that have died through the Holocaust but loves to discuss it importance. But, don’t we all though?
        Finkelstein had the money title with Holocaust Industry. What else describes it more succinctly?

        Hophmi’s likely here to earn debate points and reinforce his point of view, as he is on his way to become a lawyer. At 30 years old, he’s a committed political player in the Manhattan DA’s office as he’s proudly stated before to Phil Weiss. But to him, that’s not political, and Israel is just a point of interest for him. um, really? Maybe in Wichita.
        Sometimes the ego can’t see the id’s intent.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 12:44 pm

        “Hophmi’s likely here to earn debate points and reinforce his point of view, as he is on his way to become a lawyer. At 30 years old, he’s a committed political player in the Manhattan DA’s office as he’s proudly stated before to Phil Weiss. But to him, that’s not political, and Israel is just a point of interest for him. um, really? Maybe in Wichita.
        Sometimes the ego can’t see the id’s intent.”

        What the fuck are you blathering about?

        I have not stated any of this to Phil, and as I have stated before, my views are my own and I am not here on behalf of anyone. Please stop posting personal details of my life.

      • annie
        July 14, 2010, 8:58 pm

        hophmi, i have been to the holocaust museum in dc.

        It’s funny how people here interpret any talk of the campaign to exterminate the Jews as automatically diminishing other campaigns of genocide undertaken by Hitler. It’s as if they feel threatened.

        i don’t feel threatened. the following blockquote very much diminishes other campaigns of genocide undertaken by Hitler:

        the war of extermination against the Jews was without parallel during WWII.

        while i agree it was at times unparalleled wrt efficiency it was not unparalleled in terms of the results.

        Because the idea is that Jews are somehow being self-serving by not noting how many Russians died during WWII.

        so what do you think holocaust denial is all about? do you think it is because people are being self serving? a million of those jews died in russia, are their deaths worth less also, or just the non jews? it seems to me you are engaging in a form of holocaust denial. roughly half of the almost 6 million polish who died were jews. how does one minimize the death of the other 1/2 million in comparison rationally? i’m just not understanding how that works. do you think the amount hitler hated or the way hitler hated or who he hated the most elevated the deaths of one 3 million over the other 2.8 million?

        over 60 million people died in that war . it was the deadliest military conflict in history.

        It also obscures the historical truth, which is that the genocide of the Jews was a special case as far as the Nazis were concerned.

        yes, the jews were very special to hitler, i am not arguing they were not . but let’s get back to poland. do you think perhaps hitler didn’t want them dead as much as the jews and therefore their lack of specialness makes their memory less valuable?

        i find it confusing.

      • annie
        July 14, 2010, 9:01 pm

        sorry i screwed up closing my second blockquote

      • Berthe
        July 14, 2010, 9:03 pm

        Donald,
        I looked through that link and find many of the answers to be along the lines of this one:

        2nd question: How accurate is the total if there were no detailed records kept?

        The total is quite accurate. Detailed records do exist, but the demographics can be difficult to understand.

        Frankly, thats a “saying makes it so” argument. The simple fact that historians in the countries where it happened would be prohibited under penalty of prosecution from disputing Mr. Hilberg et al should put a HUGE question mark on the number, for any reasonable person. Just that issue of the Auschwitz plaque dropping from 4 million to 1.5 million, despite having stood with the 4 million number for decades, like 40 years — thats a muddle in the responses on your link. To say, “the 4 million numbers was never really believed” is not much of an answer.

      • annie
        July 14, 2010, 9:31 pm

        The first is that the extermination of the Jews was the culmination of hundreds of years of antisemitism in Europe, driven by deicide charges, blood libels, and the like, and executed through repeated expulsions, forced conversions, and massacres.

        but what if it wasn’t? granted there were hundreds of years of antisemitism in Europe, driven by deicide charges, blood libels, and the like..etc, i’m not saying that did not happen. but what if what happened in the holocaust was more a result of more current events mixed w/a homocidal maniac coming to power? weren’t the jews rather popular in germany prior to that? otherwise how could they have risen in society if they were universally rejected? maybe the boycott of germany or results of WW1 or some more recent events wrt the climate in germany had more impact than we give credit for. maybe i’m wrong, but perhaps it wasn’t this culmination of hatred over centuries. do you think the execution of gays was a result of centuries of hatred too? maybe it was, i don’t know.

        The second is that it represented a marriage of ancient hatreds and modern technology and thought……This was something that took a good deal of thought and planning. It was a product of the scientific process; several methods were tried, before a final solution of extermination camps and gassings were arrived at.

        well, perhaps that had something to do w/the modern age and scientific development. let me ask you..do you think the use of modern cutting edge weapons ( dime or white phospherous for example) used against palestininas is more the result of jewish towards or efficiency and modern technology?

        and what about the methodology and efficiency of the occupation? arguably the most efficient to date for mankind. do you think it speaks to the character of those who invest a good deal of thought and planning?

        in all fairness should it be judged like that?

      • potsherd
        July 14, 2010, 9:42 pm

        If Israel eventually withdraws from the territories and there is a two-state solution, it will be because that is what we Jews want, not because you people want it. And that is the way it should be.

        And what the Palestinians want – that means nothing to you.

        It’s clear that you have totally Jew-centric vision. The rest of the world is an inconsenquential blur, not worth regarding. No one else matters. The unique, special, privileged status of the Jews is all that matters and no comparisons with any other peoples are allowed, lest the specialness of the Jews be “diminished.”

        No comparisons, above all, with the victims of the Zionist state.

        No, I don’t think the international community owes the survivors of the WWII genocide anything in particular. The Germans did, and they have paid and paid – into the pockets of Israel, which has kept most of the money for itself instead of distributing it all to the actual victims.

        It is very convenient for Zionist Jews to promote these fears, this dwelling on past victimization, on the uniqueness of it. It absolves all sins, past and future. Jews are so unique and special that the demands of common morality do not apply to them.

        If Israel were a psychiatric patient, it would have to be committed as a danger to itself and others.

        The Zionists parlayed Western guilt into acceptance of the Israeli state, counter to all justice and law – that was more payment.

      • potsherd
        July 14, 2010, 9:44 pm

        It was Hitler’s model. “Who remembers the Armenians?”

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 11:02 pm

        “And what the Palestinians want – that means nothing to you.”

        Do the Palestinians care about what I want? No? Then why should I care about what they want?

        “It’s clear that you have totally Jew-centric vision. The rest of the world is an inconsenquential blur, not worth regarding. No one else matters. The unique, special, privileged status of the Jews is all that matters and no comparisons with any other peoples are allowed, lest the specialness of the Jews be “diminished.””

        When has the world ever cared about the Jews? And why should the Jews care about a world that puts Iran and Libya on the Human Rights Council?

        “If Israel were a psychiatric patient, it would have to be committed as a danger to itself and others.”

        It’ll join the US.

        “The Zionists parlayed Western guilt into acceptance of the Israeli state, counter to all justice and law – that was more payment.”

        I don’t see the Israeli state as being accepted. It is accepted only because people are starting to see that it can’t be destroyed, not because of anyone’s guilt. Most of the West would let it be destroyed if it were convenient.

      • Chu
        July 15, 2010, 8:44 am

        “When has the world ever cared about the Jews? And why should the Jews care about a world that puts Iran and Libya on the Human Rights Council?” (#4)

        This is shameful Hophmi. I guess the world does really suck in your eyes. Can you explain where you get this warped sense of reality from? So young and confused, but keep on believing. Perhaps you should have joined the IDF like your other brethren, to see what like is like enforcing the occupation.

        “I don’t see the Israeli state as being accepted. It is accepted only because people are starting to see that it can’t be destroyed, not because of anyone’s guilt. Most of the West would let it be destroyed if it were convenient.”

        -A just peace agreement on Israel’s behalf is what needs to occur, if skeptics are to trust the Jewish State. East Jerusalem cannot be taken. Admit that it the stupid course of action for Israel. You’re in a dark place, brother. It’s sad.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2010, 9:21 am

        “This is shameful Hophmi. I guess the world does really suck in your eyes. Can you explain where you get this warped sense of reality from? So young and confused, but keep on believing. Perhaps you should have joined the IDF like your other brethren, to see what like is like enforcing the occupation.”

        Chu, the world does suck. I don’t know how you could look at the world and conclude otherwise. If there’s one thing we can learn from history, it’s that it sucks less when you control your own destiny, and sucks more when you don’t, either because you are a persecuted minority or because you have an unforgiven debt burden.

        “A just peace agreement on Israel’s behalf is what needs to occur, if skeptics are to trust the Jewish State. East Jerusalem cannot be taken. Admit that it the stupid course of action for Israel. You’re in a dark place, brother. It’s sad.”

        I’m not in a dark place. I think that I have a realistic view of the world that has developed from years of being a student of international relations. I know very well that if there is a peace agreement, even if there are sustained negotiations, some of these problems will dissipate, as they did in the 1990s when there were negotiations going on. But I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to say that at least in Europe, they don’t make their policy based on morality. They make it based on who is likely to succeed. No European country was going to step in to assure Israel’s survival and no European country will do it now. Now that Israel is a fait accompli, of course, they support it to some extent.

        It’s the same with the Iran nuclear issue. If Israel bombs and if successful, they will all support it behind the scenes. If they are not successful, they will not get that support. That is my prediction.

        The Europeans treat the Palestinians the same way. At the end of the day, the best thing the Palestinians can do for themselves is to show that they are capable of sustainable government and that their state has a good chance of succeeding once created.

      • Chu
        July 15, 2010, 5:10 pm

        the world may suck, but what do you think the Palestinians are thinking when they are stripped search and humiliated by the IDF every day. They’re likely saying this f#ckin world really, really sucks. check out what this mini-politician has to say: link to youtube.com

        What else can I say except the ‘world’ does not totally hate ‘Jews’. Don’t focus on Europe so much and the hatred from the Middle East. Europe has a long history of antisemitism, (remember the evian conference) so I am not sure why, they are going to be in favor of a Jewish State. In the Middle East, it’s clear that Israel is an unwelcomed neighbor for them, as they are humiliated by the state and it’s aggressive nature toward the region. Imagine if Argentinians moved into New Jersey, expelled all of the shore residents (including your girlfriend snookie) and created a refugee crisis for the surrounding states. Would New York say go Argentina? It’s the reality of starting a colonial project that was formulated after the souring of colonialism ambitions.

        Some of the things you write have a very dismal world perspective. I have a good friend in Rome, who never ever would even write some of the stuff you write. I know you try to defend Israel all the time, but you should see that their is a major problem with occupation (colonization, whatever, etc) in the eyes of the world, not with Jews in general. I get the sense you feel blighted by the world, and will do whatever it takes to have the tribe survive, as you so often speak for the tribe. The only issue for you is, it’s how you perceive the world around you. It may be different from what you think you know.
        gotta go, but hope you kinda see what I am sayin.

    • Mooser
      July 13, 2010, 1:27 pm

      “Czarist Empire” and “Einsetzgruppen”? Aren’t you mixing up a couple of different wars?

  4. Psychopathic god
    July 13, 2010, 11:47 am

    Shortly after Jacob Heilbrunn released his insider’s view of the neocons, “They Knew They Were Right,” he talked about it in a panel at Nixon Center, moderated by Dimitri Simes.

    Heilbrunn and Dov Zakheim, one of the dozen other attendees at the talk, got into a minor set-to over which neocon was more or less motivated
    by Holocaust survivor experience, directly or in the family.

    Simes closed the conference with these words:

    “I’m glad to hear that the neocons are a small, elitist group and that the president, not the neocons, make decisions.
    “I do remember there was a country called Russia where a small group of public intellectuals, contrary to everybody’s expectations, came to power. That country was called the Soviet Union. I also do remember there was a split among the Bolsheviks; one part of the Bolsheviks, called the Trotskyites, was a utopian messianic cult with global ambitions for whom Russia was essentially an instrument to remake the universe.
    “When a group like that has an impact on global politics; when people who share this mindset become advisers to presidents, there is something to think about.”

  5. Shmuel
    July 13, 2010, 11:53 am

    Phil,

    What exactly are you looking for? Psychological or sociological insight? Mitigating circumstances? I really wonder whether there is any connection between family history and views on Israel among American/Canadian Jews. Are the descendants of survivors/victims more likely to cultivate Jewish victimism and exceptionalism? I’m not so sure.

    • Mooser
      July 13, 2010, 1:38 pm

      “I’m not so sure.”

      Exactly! That’s exactly why we need the conversation! That the “descendants of survivors/victims (are, ed.) more likely to cultivate Jewish victimism and exceptionalism”. may be a myth! What if we have this conversation, this open conversation, and it turns out that indeed, those who were closest to or suffered are not necessarily devoted to Jewish exceptionalism and Zionism. What if it turns out, that in fact, those most fervrent for Zionism are those who have suffered least?
      And we can’t start those conversations by letting those who have controlled it up til now (“in house”) decide not just who can talk, but who can listen.
      I didn’t get what Phil was saying about that conversation for a long time, but I think I do now. Because it was hard for me to imagine a conversation about anything having to do with Jews where I truly couldn’t control or predict what would happen, or what the result might be. That’s scary
      I’m pretty sure I know what Hophmi is scared of, tho. That when it’s all said and done he won’t like the result as far as the type of support for Israel goes.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 1:46 pm

        You’ve got it ass backwards Mooser. I don’t think an open discussion would affect support for Israel at all; in fact, I think it might increase.

        I just don’t see why we should provide a platform for people like those commenting here.

        But, you know, the self-hating Jew is a stereotype in this society, and Jews that are anti-Israel tend to be in that category as well, which explains why they apparently would like to listen to antisemites say bad things about us.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2010, 10:26 am

        “But, you know, the self-hating Jew is a stereotype in this society, and Jews that are anti-Israel tend to be in that category as well, which explains why they apparently would like to listen to antisemites say bad things about us.”

        You’re scared, and ashamed of being Jewish. It sticks out all over you.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 10:27 am

        Don’t know if you got the memo, Mooser, but today is not Opposite Day. Repeat: NOT Opposite Day.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 2:30 pm

        i’m reminded of wonderings questions about phil recently as a followup to my response to his first queries upthread from this link.

        I am not saying that Phil does not count as a Jew. He does count as a Jew. But an assimilating Jew, who naturally tends towards the “who gives a shit” attitude towards Zionism. As an American he has abandoned his “who gives a shit” attitude to adopt a negative attitude: Zionism is fucking up my America. No problem there. Just we shouldn’t confuse his attitude with Peter Beinart’s which is sociologically very distinct from Phil’s.

        Here are some sociological type questions that Phil might answer.
        Were your parents born in America? When did your grandparents or great grandparents move to America? Have your parents ever visited Israel? What was the closest relative of yours to get killed in the Holocaust? (Nazi genocide of European Jews, if you prefer a less loaded terminology.) How often did you attend synagogue or temple as a kid? How many siblings do you have? How many of them intermarried? Have any of them ever visited Israel? Do any of them emphasize Jewish education in raising their kids?

        seems perhaps a theme is developing.

        also here’s the link again for They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Necons Jacob Heilbrunn seems to think the holocaust had an driving influence on the neocons and american foreign policy.

        my issue w/the holocaust (and i have the same criticism wrt anti semites btw) is the way people want to put it in a box. (anti semites like putting jews in a box imho). when i say the holocaust ‘in a box’ i mean any attempts at exploration wrt the narrative is immediately screamed at.

        i’ve said this before but i think it is worth repeating..i think genocide is fluid, meaning it is not contained even within the century it takes place. it can go on for generations and take on mythical proportions (hard to imagine anything so devastating can get expanded or shrunk but obviously it can in ones mind).

        the fear of touching it (“Why do you want to touch the Holocaust?“)..well, because it isn’t over yet. tell me it’s over somebody? is it over for frum? a survivor? a palestinian? if it was over we wouldn’t constantly hear ‘we don’t want another holocaust’. it isn’t over it’s just in a box and only some people can take it out and explore it. the rest of us are not allowed, and comparing it to others deaths isn’t fair either because it’s worse and anyone who doesn’t think that is a denier.

        it’s in a box. and nobody’s saying Phil does not count as a Jew, he just might not count enough to be exploring the box.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 3:11 pm

        Look, I have no problem with people who want to discuss the effect the Holocaust has had on Jews and identity and so on, and what role it plays in Israeli policy. I am not, however, down with a discussion on how many people were killed and so on. That’s not about Israel or policy. That’s about denial. i’m not willing to be involved in a discussion where people talk about how Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial is OK. That’s not worth it. And frankly, I also do not want to discuss it in comparison to other genocides. That’s not a fruitful discussion either. Obviously, everybody who has been or is related to someone who has experienced a genocide bears the scars of that experience, and you are right when you say it has not ended; as some have pointed out, had there been no Holocaust, there might be 25 million more Jews in the world today.

        I feel the same way about slavery. I don’t want to discuss with someone about how well plantation owners treated black people. I don’t want to discuss how much better of worse things were in Africa. I don’t want to discuss how many slaves there were over time. These are offensive discussions that are wholly beside the point.

        And I don’t feel the need to apologize for Holocaust education, either. The Jewish community has done more than any other community has to educate the world on genocide, using our particular horror. My community did not set up Holocaust education programs all over the place for our own direct benefit or for Israel’s. We did it because we felt that if people were educated about what happened, it might prevent similar events in the future. As you can see, it’s been a failure for the most part. And that is pretty sad.

        I don’t see how discussing the details of what happened in a forum like this is anything but a way to support antisemitic conspiracy theories, particularly when the tone is a mix of fictions about how the Jews don’t care and non-sequitors about how many Russians died during the War.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 3:23 pm

        annie, that post questioning Phil Jewish bina fides was the first thing I though of too. Oh, hophmi wants to have an “open” but “in house” conversation. As long as he can even determine who among the Jews is worthy to be in it.
        And notice one question hophmi didn’t even think to ask ‘Have you yourself ever been subjected to anti-semitism, and of what did it consist?’
        About that, for a Jew talking to another Jew, he’s really pretty uninterested. I wonder why?

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:34 pm

        As long as he can even determine who among the Jews is worthy to be in it.

        well, that shouldn’t be too hard to figure out mooser. at one time a ‘good jew’ might have been defined by one’s dedication to judaism but not anymore..it zionism now baby! are you now or have you ever been an anti zionist?

      • Cliff
        July 13, 2010, 11:33 pm

        That’s total garbage. Holocaust education is to internalize Jewish suffering in non-Jews. ‘YOUR community’ is WHAT exactly? Define your community.

        What institutions? You’re an imbecile, hophmi.

        Elie Wiesal doesn’t give a damn about genocide. He doesn’t give a damn about collective punishment or any other crime against humanity or act of oppression.

        It doesn’t have to be only genocide, it can be the actions and behaviors within that same sphere.

        The Jewish ‘whatever’ you speak of that is educating people about the Holocaust puts the value of a Jewish life above non-Jewish life. When the majority of American Jews value VALUES above ‘the tribe’ then you can talk about the concern w/ preventing future genocides.

        What a steaming pile of BS.

        You don’t care about genocide. You care about a Jew getting a paper cut versus a Palestinian losing his land, his property, his life, etc.

        What a shameless little liar you are.

      • Shmuel
        July 13, 2010, 6:41 pm

        “I’m not so sure.”
        Exactly! That’s exactly why we need the conversation!

        I’ve really got to work on my understatement. By “I’m not so sure” I meant that I do not think that is the case. Converse all you like, but I think the really important discussion lies elsewhere. The Holocaust religion and industry are (IMHO, of course) unrelated to direct personal or family experience of the genocide of European Jews. They have been developed, cultivated and propagated over the years, to the point where every Jew is supposed to feel like a survivor and channel that feeling in a very specific way. The High Priests have been wildly successful, and it no longer matters what actually happened to your grandad or great-grandad in the years 1939-45. Frum and Feith are not so different in their attitudes to the Holocaust and Israel from countless Zionists with no family stories to tell.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2010, 10:30 am

        “Frum and Feith are not so different in their attitudes to the Holocaust and Israel from countless Zionists with no family stories to tell”
        Exactly, that’s why we need an open discussion, so we can sort out the bullshit.

  6. radii
    July 13, 2010, 1:52 pm

    it’s time to move on … lots of Rwandans with machete scars in their heads and missing limbs that were brutally hacked off have done their grieving and are making new lives … there are plenty of Holocausts, unfortunately several in just the past decade (Bosnia, Darfur, Congo, etc.) … crimes that harmed one’s family of course shape their world-view but it is an evolved and enlightened person who lets go of the torment and moves on … the Holocaust Industry has instead made a forceful and effective political tool/weapon out of the WWII Holocaust which killed 12 million (around 6 million of whom were jews)

    time to MOVE ON

    • hophmi
      July 13, 2010, 2:06 pm

      Oh thank you, great radii. Moving on, that’s the ticket. I won’t bother trying to explain to you how the Nazi genocide is different from the ones you’ve listed because the massive displacement it caused, or how your claim that these other peoples have “moved on” is, well, unsupported and unsupportable at best, and patronizing crap at worst, or how the Holocaust was the culmination of hundreds of years of persecution Jews had experienced in Europe, because I can tell you won’t be receptive.

      But we have moved on, us Jews. Since the Holocaust, we founded a state of our own, and, you know, we became a privileged minority in America and now, according to a lot of people here, control the country. Moving on is not the same as abandoning all vigilence and forgetting what happened to us in the past.

      Unfortunately, some complain about our achievements, want to end that state, and want to send us back to Europe. Maybe we moved on too much.

      • radii
        July 13, 2010, 8:58 pm

        whine whine whine, get a box of tissues so your tears don’t slop all over the propaganda sheets you’re reading from (you don’t have it memorized yet?)

        the Nazi genocide is no different from say, the jewish wipeout of the Canaanites (if it really happened, like so much in the Torah and Bible New Testament it is made-up nonsense) … when one person murders another it is a holocaust for those who loved that murdered person

        I thought the jews were persecuted for thousands of years, not just hundreds … have you gone off-script?

        as far as founding your own state, you did under cover of US protection (essentially extorted by giving money to Truman) by the work of terrorists and mafias and radical true believers that stole the land from the locals and ethnically-cleansed over 700 thousand people … nothing to celebrate

        I don’t think for a second that anyone should “forget” the death camps of the nazis that killed some 12 million people from my reading of history but I reject the exceptionalism and superiority of the endless zionist propaganda that states that jewish suffering in that situation was somehow worse than it was for the political enemies of Hitler, the gypsies, the homosexuals, the Catholics, etc etc

        … and, for the record, I am all for jews everywhere living in peace and security and thriving in their communities and their lives – I just want their zionist faction to stop waging what is essentially war on my country, the United States – through control of our political process, etc, and to stop employing hideous serial war-crimes to dominate the region they claim as their own over in the Middle East

        israel as it is today is untenable and non-viable … it will morph … it must change to survive and since the inmates are now running the asylum over there, there is now a glaring lack of leadership with foresight and creativity to chart a way forward and MOVE ON to a new paradigm that creates a Middle East where all can live in peace

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 10:31 am

        ” I reject the exceptionalism and superiority of the endless zionist propaganda that states that jewish suffering in that situation was somehow worse than it was for the political enemies of Hitler, the gypsies, the homosexuals, the Catholics, etc etc”

        It’s not Zionist propaganda. It’s history. If you compare the Jewish experience during WWII to the Catholic experience, you clearly don’t know much history.

      • azythos
        July 13, 2010, 11:01 pm

        hoppmi – Wow, somebody at the Propaganda-Abteilung must have upgraded his software.
        I mean, he gave a positively poetic turn to the same old turds.

        “But we have moved on, us Jews. Since the Holocaust, we founded a state of our own”
        Us Jews or us racist, white supremacist Zionist shits? Or to Olbermann that, howdareyousir?

        Anyway, the Ziobot inadvertently something very true and important: “how your claim that these other peoples have “moved on” is, well, unsupported…” Yes, it is all of that. The Armenians who are still being denied justice because of the political tricks of Zionist shits are not moving on; the Palestinians whose catastrophe is ongoing and worsening are not either.

        Others are not moving on either: the Jews whose parents and friends died because the Zionist organizations under Rabbi Wise managed to close the US and GB borders, those who lost people whose suffering has been made into a circus, a ridiculous cash cow of a business by the ridiculous Zionist entity, who even pockets their blood money.

    • syvanen
      July 13, 2010, 5:22 pm

      Radii writes Holocausts, unfortunately several in just the past decade (Bosnia, thereby proving that he is the victim of state propaganda. It was “humanitarian” war propaganda from the Clinton years (you know the good kind, not the evil kind from Republicans). But still deluded nevertheless.

      • radii
        July 13, 2010, 8:49 pm

        In my humble estimation if even one person is murdered it is a holocaust for their loved ones … when it comes to the Balkans, some selfish evil politicians decided it would be good for their personal power to stoke age-old ethnic and religious tensions and hence we have the Balkan conflict … all kinds of needless murders in service to politicians and mafias and mafia-militaries

        israel is involved in the same thing now with their endless meddling and manipulation in Georgia and Putin rightfully crushed their efforts

  7. wondering jew
    July 13, 2010, 2:06 pm

    I think there should be an open discussion about the role that the Holocaust plays in Jewish identity and attitudes towards Zionism. I think too many people in this comments section treat the subject as a cause for humor or stupidity.

    The number 6 million is not sacrosanct. Tony Judt in his book “Postwar” uses a figure of 5.7 million. Raul Hilberg gives a figure of 5.1 million. Hilberg explains that the discrepancy from the higher figure is based upon the inability to pinpoint the number killed by the einsatzgruppen in their forays in Eastern Europe in what was previously the Czarist empire.

    Once one raises Ahmadinejad in this context one is not engaging in serious discussion but rather in propaganda. Ahmadinejad is not a historian and is purely a politician. Raising the name Mel Gibson certainly does not add to the seriousness of the discussion.

    • hophmi
      July 13, 2010, 2:07 pm

      I’m not sure it’s worth bothering with this group, Wondering Jew.

    • annie
      July 13, 2010, 2:35 pm

      there’s nothing humorous about it WJ

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 3:03 pm

        annie- Actually there are a few Holocaust jokes that are at least as funny as the best “dead baby” jokes, but if I caught a nonJew telling them I would take offense. And I wouldn’t recount them here for fear of giving comfort to the enemy.

        Phil is free to discuss the Holocaust all he wants, after all this is his blog. I think one would be silly to assume someone Jewish whose ancestors came to America in the 1880′s and whose closest relatives to die in the Holocaust were distant cousins is as attached to that memory as someone whose direct ancestors died in the Holocaust.

        Different cultures deal with traumas differently. Arab women wail at funerals. Wasps prefer the tight upper lip. Given the fact that religious Jews still fast on the 9th of Av to commemorate the destruction of the temple two thousand years ago, the Jewish culture is more into preserving memories rather than “getting over it”. It is an interesting question what would have been the alternate history if the state of Israel had not been established in the immediate aftermath of WWII. What would have been the reaction to the Holocaust if there had not been the (admittedly insufficient and brutal) “antidote” of nationalism of Zionism.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 3:32 pm

        “but if I caught a nonJew telling them I would take offense.”

        Bing, there’s the little bell, somebody mentioned the Holocaust, and now every Zionist automatically becomes an expert on Jewish culture, history and sociology, and a tough guy, to boot. Could anything be more gratifying? It’s like instantly getting an honorary doctorate. Yeah, you can tell how much it bothers them, that Holocaust.

        So Okay, Wondering, as many Jews as you want, and no more, died in the Holocaust, probably one of the highlights of human evil. Okay, and therefore Jews are entitled to what, exactly?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 3:34 pm

        “Arab women wail at funerals.”

        Maybe I should have told my Mom “Shut up, you’re wailing like an Arab!” at my Dad’s burial, huh Wondering. I’m sorry she let the Jews down so badly.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 3:46 pm

        i wrote you a long answer but i nixed it.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 3:49 pm

        ah! that was for WJ. needless to say the cluelessness behind the exceptionalism always stuns me a tad.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 3:50 pm

        . Given the fact that religious Jews still fast on the 9th of Av to commemorate the destruction of the temple two thousand years ago, the Jewish culture is more into preserving memories rather than “getting over it”

        given the fact that the jewish culture is brimming w/ secular jews who are not religious how does that impact your theory.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 3:52 pm

        A little chum to keep your chin up, Mooser.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 3:54 pm

        and what about the rest of us, are we going to be allowed to move on anytime soon?

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 3:55 pm

        Anytime, annie. Anytime you want.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 3:55 pm

        They’re entitled to listen to you, mooser and say, hoboy, he’s one of ours.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 3:57 pm

        move on anytime you like, annie.

      • Chu
        July 13, 2010, 3:59 pm

        given the fact that the jewish culture is brimming w/ secular jews who are not religious how does that impact your theory.

        …and it’s up to people like WJ to convince the secular Jews, why they must remain connected to Judaism and not wander outside.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 4:04 pm

        Annie, just say the word Holocaust and every Zionist is an expert on everything, and you durst not gainsay nothin’!
        From reading their comments, I do know that no matter how many Jews he killed, Hitler failed, completely, because not only couldn’t he kill us all, he couldn’t even make us afraid for very long.
        Now if only the Zionists would only admit it, things might get better.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:06 pm

        mooser , it’s as if some people want jews to be permanently defined by the holocaust. where’s that at?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 4:09 pm

        “why they must remain connected to Judaism”

        You can stay plenty connected to Judaism, and still be a fierce critic of Israel or even anti-Zionist. In fact, I think the great majority of the Jewish people we read about here who are acting in whatever way they can to change the situation were introduced to and became active in these issues because of their connection to Judaism.
        Remember, Judaism in the US arranged itself into three divisions Reform, Conservative Orthodox and can divide itself any way it wants, over any issue important to it. That, I think, is still to come.
        And yes, if we don’t have an open, not “in-house” discussion, it won’t include secular Jews.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:11 pm

        you’re kidding WJ. tell that to palestinians, tell them to move on from the holocaust. tell my government to move on from the holocaust. if we had even one year where our genocide of native americans got even 10% of the attention the holocaust gets in out media i would be satisfied. that’s never going to happen. we’ll maybe if native americans invaded hollywood. i don’t think moving on from the holocaust is an option anytime soon. not as long as the settlements are still expanding.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:11 pm

        argh, mass typos.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2010, 4:12 pm

        Well, the Holocaust happened in the 20th century. SORRY. If you want to highlight what happened to the Native Americans, get out there and talk about it!

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:20 pm

        it’s up to people like WJ to convince the secular Jews, why they must remain connected to Judaism and not wander outside.

        it up to people like WJ to convince all of us 2010 ‘jewish culture’ is defined by commemorating the destruction of the temple two thousand years ago ( the israel rocks brigade)

        heeeeelloooo welcome to the new century.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 4:25 pm

        It’s the 58th century as in 5770. welcome to a very old century.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 4:34 pm

        Annie, for the life of me, I can’t see what those guys hope to do or what they hope to accomplish using the Holocaust as they do. And that’s all I know, except I’m glad I wasn’t in it, and intend to go on being glad of it.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2010, 4:41 pm

        “mooser , it’s as if some people want jews to be permanently defined by the holocaust.”

        People want a lot of things. What you want and what you get are two different things, and you’d best adjust to reality. I don’t think they are.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:45 pm

        welcome to a very old century

        i’m just suggesting there may be more than a few representative of the jewish culture who might be a tad more current in their outlooks. some might not be mourning the destruction of the temples on monday if you know what i mean.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 4:52 pm

        i’m glad you weren’t in it either mooser. i’m a fan of closure. i’m not sure what the upside is reinforcing this idea everyone wants to kill all the jews. we hear this too much. it’s a form of brainwashing.

      • annie
        July 14, 2010, 10:20 pm

        I just don’t see why we should provide a platform for people like those commenting here.

        whose ‘we’ hophmi? this isn’t a democracy, it’s phil and adam’s blog.

        sometimes i wonder what it would have been like if the holocaust had been allowed to just fade into memory like vietnam, but it hasn’t. if it is something that is used as a weapon, and used to justify the theft of land..we should have our say in it too. you don’t own it. it’s not fair that’s all. you can’t keep it in a box and use it when it suits you and beat us over the head with it. it’s not my fault. there were lots of jewish americans back then too. what did american zionists do? why is it all of our fault. my uncle died over there. he counts. too.

        there’s no place we can discuss it without you. if you don’t like what is said go away from here. i accept your narrative, that is was hideous for jews and millions died. you can’t accept ours which is that jews were 10% of those who lost their lives. it was devastating for humanity. war totally sucks. the only difference is that we are not still reaping rewards, israel is and palestinians are paying the price and so am i with my tax dollar.

        we have stopped depending on other people to care what happens to us, and to some extent, we have stopped caring about what others think, because over time, they haven’t really given a rats’ ass about us. Again, you know, the Holocaust, or if you like, that period where the West didn’t give enough of rats’ ass to keep six million of us, and 6 million others, from being murdered. Yeah, we reacted to that. We made sure our state was founded and we got it up and running.

        all by your little lonesome did ya. and yer keeping that engine running all by yourself are ya. hey, how nice of you to have all those houses to just move into. free real estate, how impressive.

        If Israel eventually withdraws from the territories and there is a two-state solution, it will be because that is what we Jews want, not because you people want it. And that is the way it should be.

        hell yes, because you fucking rule the roost don’t you. that is what we Jews want that is what we Jews want that is what we Jews want that is what we Jews want that is what we Jews want. maybe it’s just always been about what we jews want for some jews but you might take a look at who the fucks paying the price once in awhile bigshot.

        Well, the Holocaust happened in the 20th century. SORRY. If you want to highlight what happened to the Native Americans, get out there and talk about it!

        actually if i had my druthers i’d just as soon you guys shut the fuck up about the holocaust. i’m kinda holocausted up to my fucking ears thank you very much but SOMETHING tells me that isn’t going to be happening any time soon since the victimization of jews is a cash cow. the gift that keeps on giving. so here’s the reality hophmi, since i’m stuck with it (since we are all stuck with it) you can pretty much guarentee it’s gonna get worked over like a 70 year whore. put her to bed and i will too but as long as she’s being pimped til kingdome kome leaving corpses in her wake you probably won’t have as much control over her reputation as you’ld like.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2010, 11:04 pm

        “actually if i had my druthers i’d just as soon you guys shut the fuck up about the holocaust. ”

        I’m sure you would. That’s why I will keep talking about it.

      • annie
        July 15, 2010, 10:05 am

        so be it hophmi, as she’s being pimped til kingdome kome leaving corpses in her wake you probably won’t have as much control over her reputation as you’ld like.

        you crack me up. you want to keep it (and yourself) front and center and then whine about (I just don’t see why we should provide a platform for people like those commenting here…..bwwwwahhhh) your genocide being discuss along side other victims.

        poor you.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2010, 10:17 am

        “you crack me up. you want to keep it (and yourself) front and center and then whine about (I just don’t see why we should provide a platform for people like those commenting here…..bwwwwahhhh) your genocide being discuss along side other victims.”

        Ah, the empowerment of being in a room where (almost) everyone agrees with everything you say.

        As I’ve said before, no community is responsible for preserving the memories of the victims of WWII as the Jewish community is. I never “rejected” any other narrative about the other victims of WWII. I simply argue that what happened to the Jews is a special case within the context of the WWII, which happens to the be what the overwhelming majority of historians think. As usual, this became an excuse for ad hominem attacks by yourself and others.

    • Berthe
      July 13, 2010, 5:30 pm

      What is the methodology? I presume they are using some kind of census figures but how would they track down where people went? Just saying the figure is 5 – 7 million tells me its not from records; thats too big a discrepancy. Someone says 5 – 7 million, it might as well be 3 – 5 million or 7 – 9 million or, really, any number. Give or take a few million.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 5:41 pm

        Berthe- I don’t know much about Yad Vashem’s method of counting. Raul Hilberg wrote a book titled “The Destruction of Europe’s Jews”. If you are indeed serious about the numbers, his is the research to study.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 9:38 pm

        You don’t know the methodology but you believe it, right? If you knew the methodology, you could describe it in a few sentences rather than direct me to read a book!

      • Cliff
        July 13, 2010, 11:25 pm

        WJ – if ask anyone at random about the Holocaust data, do you think they’ll give you a substantiated argument for 6 million deaths?

        Most will say ‘believe it was 6 million’. People have to do the research themselves. It’s a historical event. We learn a lot less about the formation of the Middle East in elementary/high school.

        I think a lot of people just don’t care and will accept 6 million because of the social taboo in saying anything but 6 million.

        I haven’t read Hilberg’s book but I heard of him, from reading the Holocaust Industry. Seems like a good place to start to get a handle on things.

        And I think the point of this blah blah about the Holocaust is that you can dwell on it all you want, but when it influences policy and actions toward an entire people (not 1 or 2 people), non-Jews are going to question your sincerity.

  8. wondering jew
    July 13, 2010, 4:11 pm

    Mooser wants the Jews to be defined by their sense of humor and Phil wants us to be defined by Christmas dinner at the in laws.

    • Chu
      July 13, 2010, 4:45 pm

      and what about you, wj?

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 5:20 pm

        Chu- Jews are defined for me by a few things. Continuity- Do they have Jewish kids? Education- Can they read a Jewish text in the original (and are they educating their kids in same) and Zionism- are they for a Jewish state in a reasonable way. In a way that will lead to the survival of the Jewish state? In fact, I have no kids, so I am not doing my part vis a vis continuity, unless I get part credit for being a good uncle to my sisters’ kids. I can read a Jewish text in the original. And as for Zionism? It goes without saying that I am precisely the right kind of Zionist.

        Usually the continuity and the education go hand in hand with observance of Jewish law to some degree. Unfortunately most observant Jews are too Likud oriented in their Zionism and I feel that is heading the wrong way.

      • Chu
        July 13, 2010, 6:27 pm

        continuity. that’s good to know.
        wondering and continuity are good traits
        for any man in this world.

      • azythos
        July 14, 2010, 10:39 pm

        Wondering J – The usual entertainer doesn’t know his ass from his elbow. So which is it, the Zionist definition (race), or “reading”a dead language and being colonialist-racial supremacist shits?

        They don’t check with each other.

    • RoHa
      July 14, 2010, 7:55 am

      “Mooser wants the Jews to be defined by their sense of humor”

      That’s because he’s got one, and uses it.

    • sherbrsi
      July 14, 2010, 7:59 am

      Both are preferable to ethnic cleansing and apartheid. IMHO.

  9. annie
    July 13, 2010, 4:14 pm

    boy that really sucks WJ, why would anyone want to be defined by humor instead of 2000 year old kingdoms. and chinese restaurants are sacrosanct!

  10. wondering jew
    July 13, 2010, 4:19 pm

    annie- first you say the holocaust is in a box and nobody is allowed to touch it. now you say, bury it, so that nobody discusses it again. so which is it, do you want everyone to be able to discuss it or nobody to discuss it.

    • annie
      July 13, 2010, 5:00 pm

      i didn’t say bury it or don’t discuss it. i’m totally over it being constantly inserted into tv themes of fictional characters on television tho. i’m tired of it being ‘owned’. how come israel gets to turn on and off the switch on the holocaust when they use it to justify israel. it’s remeber the holocaust unitl obama puts it in his speech and then it’s like hell no, we’re here because of templetime. where’s that at? you can talk about the holocaust but not in relation to other genocides (like upthread). there’s a narrow walkway w/barbed electric wire on it and if you deviate off course one iota you get zapped. meanwhile you turn on your television and it’s heavily marketed. it’s a monopoly of a product we could easily live without but are required to consume.

      • wondering jew
        July 13, 2010, 5:25 pm

        hey annie,

        turn off your t.v. and stop going to the movies. that will solve half your problem.

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 5:31 pm

        lol, i skipped the last kate winslet movie..i said ‘i’m so over it honey!’

      • annie
        July 13, 2010, 5:43 pm

        anyway, i don’t watch that much television. but on the internet its a show stopper. yesterday on dkos some poster said to this guy (again) ‘how can you say this to me?? it is culturally sensitive especially when you’re talking to someone who belong ot a culture who lost some many in the holocaust!’ it was a total showstopper. after about 20 exchanges and the guy was totally loosing the argument he pulled that as a joker card, a get out of jail free card on the argument.

        i almost barfed. it was a total cop out. we are never supposed to mention the millions of other people who died in the holocaust because it’s just not the same. what do i know.

        one time i was engaged in this debate with this woman (who was loosing) who told me (this is completely true) she just found out about this aunt she never knew she had before but just found out and saw her beautiful picture and she’d been crying all night. the woman was really beautiful according to her. there wasn’t a dry eye in the house and everyone told her how sorry they were and they couldn’t imagine how horrible that would be.

        well, i have relatives myself who died before i was born. but i don’t haul them out to win arguments. and how was it she was able to argue w/me all morning before i cornered her before breaking into a sob fest.

        i found it a tad unconvincing. i guess that makes it 6 million and one.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 9:36 pm

        There is a lot of that – using the tragedies of other people. Its very cynical. Obama’s use of an uncle who was at the liberation of a concentration camp was the same kind of thing. It was obvious Obama wasn’t close to that man.

      • Cliff
        July 13, 2010, 11:20 pm

        Harvey Weinstein wrote that Roman Polanski has a hard life as a Holocaust survivor, as well as a widower – and that’s why he raped a 13 year old girl.

  11. Mooser
    July 13, 2010, 4:38 pm

    wondering jew, and the rest of you love the Holocaust way too much, okay, and people can see through it. Gentiles aren’t as stupid as you think. I hope you don’t have to learn that the hard way, like I did, so get a clue, okay?Masquerading entitlement and exceptionalism as persecution is a startling theatrical conceit, but even it gets old after a while. Especially when played by hams.

    • wondering jew
      July 13, 2010, 5:36 pm

      Mooser- Call me stupid, call me conceited, call me in love with the Holocaust, but even as tref as I am, please don’t call me a ham.

  12. Berthe
    July 13, 2010, 5:36 pm

    Turkey gets a lot of flak for not “acknowledging the Armenian genocide” but, in fact, Turkey has asked for a commission of historians to look at all the available material and Turkey will accept the result. That proposal goes no where because, I guess, you wouldn’t want to start being meticulous about these kinds of things. Much better to have the US Congress declare genocide. They got all they know about it from an Armenian lobbyist handing them a bundle of checks, so that makes them experts. The Armenian lobby no doubt plans to demand reparations and the Congresspeople would get a cut of that, too.

    Its become too obvious.

    • annie
      July 13, 2010, 5:49 pm

      oh it made me so mad when we switched political positions on that genocide lickity split after the flotilla. wht a slap in the face to all those people who died. flinging around genocides like there political capitol. i’m for recognizing geneocides, everybody’s for god’s sake but in a timely manner please. the LEAST they could have done was wait 6 monhs so it’s not abundantly clear what whores they are. the day after the friggin flotilla the aipac letters start piling up. disgusting.

      an Armenian lobbyist handing them a bundle of checks

      yeah, their lobby is just so rich and powerful it’s amazing it took til now, ya think.

      • Berthe
        July 13, 2010, 9:22 pm

        Actually, the Armenian lobby is a big deal. Not as big as the many branches of the Israel lobby but powerful.

      • Schwartzman
        July 13, 2010, 10:51 pm

        Their lobby is powerful enough for Walt to right about them Annie.

        Check out Taming American Power.

    • azythos
      July 13, 2010, 10:22 pm

      “an Armenian lobbyist handing them a bundle of checks”

      Not even a fraction of what the many Turkish governments have been spending over the years on fake endowed history chairs, nabob trips, factfinding trips and so on. Look it all up. Complemented by the Israel Lobby clout (i.e. US taxpayer money.) As for the commission, that’s the worst hoax of all if you care to read about it in detail. In the last 2 years, however and especially the last months, the wind turned in Turkey, with the government opening to democratization and opposition by the army, the Kemalists, the Nazi and the Zionists becoming intense.

      With the post-flotilla reversal Israel might now lose its military-fascist allies within Turkey while trying to play some of the Kurdish separatists and perhaps some of the Armenians, too.

      • LeoBraun
        July 16, 2010, 11:01 pm

        “Much better to have the US Congress declare genocide. They got all they know about it from an Armenian lobbyist handing them a bundle of checks, so that makes them experts”! [Berthe]

        “Not even a fraction of what the many Turkish govts have been spending over the years on fake endowed history chairs, nabob trips, factfinding trips and so on. Look it all up”! [Azythos]

        • Are the Turks finally waking up and realising that their Sultan’s refusal to grant Palestine to the zionist Jews as a homeland had cost them their centuries-old empire? And are the subjugated Turks about to discover who their real rulers are? Since the blue-eyed founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk had Jewish origins. Alike the rest of the ruling elite on the planet earth since time immemorial. Yet according to the common knowledge, at least two presidents of modern Turkey (Ismet Inonu + Celal Bayar) were Jewish.

        Apparently in Istanbul, which was the capital and the power center of the Ottoman Empire, there was “only few thousands” confessed Jews and some 200,000 Jew born Armenians and Greeks, who controlled the trade, finances and arts of the Empire. Obviously, confessed Jews and the crypto-Jew Christians were in strong competition through hundreds of years of the life of the empire.

        Confessed Jews were the losers and the crypto-Jew Christians were the winner always because crypto-Jew Sultans (there were very few who killed Christians) listened to and favoured the crypto-Jew Christians. Thus for the zionist Jews to take over Turkey, the rival crypto-Jew Christians had to be eliminated. Spelled out loud and clear in reflection on the ugly facade of the first genocide of the 20th century. [Deduced from the secretjews]

        So much for the wishful thinking that all the Jews mattered equally, when in fact our Jew lesser brethren were not the almighty chosen lot. Although sharing ancestor in common with the Jew peers of the realm, having descended apparently via “inferior” lineage. Hence being exploited for millenniums ever since as a collateral human shield. Where instead of zionism being the hope of the Jews, our blood has been the political salvation of the fascist zionism!

        With a prima facie case to answer for the Pale of Settlement diabolical plot: denoting burning stake (pale) of the final solution (settlement). What meant to culminate with the six millions burnt offering to the insatiable Yahweh, purportedly obligatory before aliyah to proceed. No wonder religiously indoctrinated fanatics were deeply divided as to the scriptural legitimacy in a treyf creation Jewish utopia in Palestine. In the meantime gigantic internment several millions casteless Jews lasted for 130 years, during 1791-1917 period, in anticipation of the sacrificial inferno to come (hence the immense significance attributed to the holocaust).

      • hophmi
        July 16, 2010, 11:13 pm

        Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot.

      • Schwartzman
        July 16, 2010, 11:14 pm

        Oh shit, the old Attaturk was a Jew nonsense. What no blaming the Jews for the Armenian Genocide LeoBraun, you gotta get your talking points straight. When talking about Crypto-Jews you HAVE to blame them for the Armenian Genocide. You are slipping dude.

      • Donald
        July 16, 2010, 11:30 pm

        Oh hell, at least that part was coherent. I defy anyone to make sense of his last paragraph. Further down in the thread he’s busy denying the Holocaust.

      • LeoBraun
        July 21, 2010, 2:18 am

        “I defy anyone to make sense of his last paragraph. Further down in the thread he’s busy ‘denying‘ the Holocaust”! [Donald]

        Sham knee jerk reaction perpetrator, find the gauntlet at your feet!

      • LeoBraun
        July 21, 2010, 2:23 am

        A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within! An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.

        For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist.

        A murder is less to fear!/b>

  13. LeoBraun
    July 15, 2010, 12:17 am

    “Israel is involved in the same thing now with their endless meddling and manipulation in Georgia, Putin rightfully crushed their efforts”! Radii

    • Well, as an Australian Jew under perpetual repression conducted by the zionist mafia, eager as ever to exploit internet forums via relentless browbeating casteless Jews (called also Jew lesser brethren), often driven into unthinking conformity for the sole purpose to deflect focus from the actual evildoers, totalitarian ideology consequences — I am compelled to expose Yid peddled falsehood apropos conflict in Caucasus, unleashed by the tyrannical Saakashvili, who blamed Russia as an aggressor.

    Of course there were reprisals, communal violence and atrocities, once Georgians attacked the sleeping South Ossetians and invaded their breakaway region. Viewing devastation in Tskhinvali, moral observers to realise that Russia had (as the former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev pointed out) very little alternative but to intervene. Putin could, with some legitimacy, compare his “humanitarian” intervention in Georgia with that of the West in Kosovo. The truth is that his call for both, South Ossetians and Abkhazians to be allowed self-determination like the former Yugoslavian province, was the only defensible one in the Caucasian context.

    The only solution was for the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be consulted and allowed to choose their own destiny — under the inalienable right of all peoples to self-determination! If not for the tyrannical zionist, the Harvard “educated” Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili. Who launched a cowardly brutal assault on the South Ossetian town of Tskhinvali. Under the cover of the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games!

    Subsequently, brainwashed Israelis waving Georgian and Israeli flags, chanted anti-Russian slogans during deafening demonstrations outside the Russian embassy in Tel Aviv. Because Georgia’s launched a surprise attack on the tiny breakaway region, prompted fierce Russian counterattack. Surely, Israeli junta tried to distance itself from the conflict. Particularly with the Georgian forces on the retreat (a large number of civilians injured/killed) and Russia’s fury unabated, Israel’s involvement was severely embarrassing!

    Moreover, collapse of the Georgian offensive represented not only a disaster for that country and the US-backed terrorism but an another blow to the myth of Israel’s military prestige and the zionist prowess. No wonder Israel downplayed its role! Yet Georgia, perhaps hoped that flattery to draw Israel further in? Accordingly, Georgian minister Temur Yakobashvili who (Israeli daily Haaretz stressed) was Jewish, told Israeli radio that: “Israel should be proud of its military, which trained Georgian soldiers”!

    Apparently since 2000, Israel has sold arms in hundreds of millions of dollars, while providing also a combat training. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, anti-aircraft systems, auto-turrets for armoured vehicles, electronic equipment and the remotely piloted aircraft. Coaching involved the nazi-styled officers expertise conveyance from Israel’s Shin Bet secret service (who carried out tortures and extrajudicial executions of Palestinians in the occupied territories), the Israeli police, and the country’s major arms companies, such as Elbit and Rafael.

    Clearly, Tel Aviv-Tbilisi military axis appears to have been cemented at the time at the highest level, as according to YNet: “The fact that a Georgia’s defence minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a ‘former’ Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew contributed to this cooperation”! Whilst a lot others involved in the brisk arms trade included an ex Israeli minister and Tel Aviv mayor Roni Milo. As well as several other senior Israeli military officials, with a key liaison officer, Reserve Brigadier General Gal Hirsch. Who commanded Israeli forces on the border with Lebanon, during the July 2006, second Lebanon war.

    He resigned from the army after the Winograd Commission severely condemned Israel’s conduct in its war against Lebanon (an internal Israeli army investigation blamed Hirsch for the seizure of two soldiers by Hizballah). According to the Israeli combat trainers account (the officers in an elite Israeli army unit), Hirsch and his colleagues would sometimes personally supervise the training of Georgian forces, including house-to-house warfare. Yet officially training was carried out by the “private” companies (with the close links to Israeli junta).

    Imagine as violence raged in Georgia, some Israeli trainers maintained desperately a contact with their Georgian disciples on the battlefront via a mobile phone. Reportedly, they wanted to know whether Georgians had: “internalised Israeli military techniques and if the special reconnaissance forces have chalked up any success”? Just as in its familiar role; in the 1970s and 1980s (at the behest of Washington) Israel helped South Africa’s apartheid regime to fight the Soviet supported insurgencies in the South African-occupied Namibia and Angola. While training also right-wing US-allied death squads, fighting left-wing governments and the nonconformist movements in Central America.

    After 9/11 subterfuge, Israel marketed itself as an expert in combating the “Islamic terrorism”, while the Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez denounced Colombia (one of the largest recipients of US military aid — after Israel), as Israel of Latin America“! In a similar pattern Georgia’s regime clearly have played evildoers role to the detriment its own people, to become a de facto “Israel of Caucasus”!

    Where a couple airfields in the southern Georgia had been earmarked for the covert operation by the Israeli airforce, plotting to launch an attack via Turkey airspace on the set targets in Iran, sought-after nuclear-reactors. If not for the Russian airforce severely damaged runways and vital services infrastructure. Bombed were likewise Israeli bases in central Georgia, even in the capital, Tbilisi vicinity. Apart from the captured intact a number of the Israeli drones and far more important, radio controlled equipment.

    Reportedly, main thrust Georgia’s top secret agreement was that the Israeli military would have a free and unfettered use of the unspecified airfields in Georgia, under American control. Onto which they were to ferry advanced tech fighter-bombers. Which then to fly south over the Turkish territory (with the clandestine Turkey’s consent) to strike Tehran. Yet thanks to the irrational actions of the utterly delusional Georgian president, Israeli plot have collapsed.

    Otherwise bases in Georgia (with Turkey’s consent and US assistance) would have made such an attack much more feasible than any attempt to fly directly from the bases in Israel, requiring unavoidable overflights that could have a serious regional diplomatic consequences. Beside the point that no one expected such an Israeli attack (within a factor of the total surprise) to destroy completely Iranian targets. Besides the property damage which could have interdicted Iran’s future nuclear development and certainly to serve as a serious warning to Iran not to threaten Israel.

    It is postulated that Israeli military and intelligence units stationed in Georgia, were comprised of the Israeli defence force reservists. Working for Global CST (run by Maj Gen Israel Ziv) and Defence Shield (run by Brig Gen Gal Hirsch). Amazingly Georgian Prime Minister Vladimer (Lado) Gurgenidze rather to get the blessing as a Jew from the ultra orthodox Jew nationalists, Haredi commune rabbis. Yet a Georgia’s Foreign Minister Ekaterine Tkeshelashvili rather to rely on her charm as a young and attractive Jewess, nicknamed Eka.

    Amid all of this, any courageous soul testimonies are laughed at, and dismissed out of hand as a crackpot’s fantasy in the zionist hijacked world, where conscientious Jew dissidents become casualties of the biomed warfare! Thus in spite of all the facts, exposing diabolical crime perpetration, brought clearly to the reader’s attention, amazingly careless sucker heads still to doubt, waver and continue to think that there was some other explanation.

    Why was this not deemed noteworthy?

    • annie
      July 15, 2010, 11:01 am

      so true leo, i was following an excellent site at the time (now closed down, literally inundated w/trolls for disrupting the zionist propaganda). this a post called Who Ordered The Slow News On Georgia

      It took the New York Times three month, four reporters and lots of expenses to provide news that I provided here within hours after the war over South Ossetia started.

      One wonders why the Times needed so long.

      Who gave the orders to hold the truth back and who allowed it to be printed today?

      The New York Times sells this news today, November 7 2008:

      Newly available accounts by independent military observers of the beginning of the war between Georgia and Russia this summer call into question the longstanding Georgian assertion that it was acting defensively against separatist and Russian aggression.

      Instead, the accounts suggest that Georgia’s inexperienced military attacked the isolated separatist capital of Tskhinvali on Aug. 7 with indiscriminate artillery and rocket fire, exposing civilians, Russian peacekeepers and unarmed monitors to harm.

      i urge people interested in the massive cyber attack (coordination) pulling off the LIE of russian aggression to follow the link for it links to previous reports. also in the comment section note the link in #20:

      MOSCOW, August 10 (RIA Novosti) – RIA Novosti news agency’s website was disabled for several hours on Sunday by a series of hacker attacks, as the conflict between Russia and Georgia over breakaway South Ossetia continued for a third day.

      Websites in both Russia and Georgia have been hit by cyber attacks since Georgia launched a major ground and air offensive to seize control of South Ossetia on Friday. Russia responded by sending in tanks and hundreds of troops.

      “The DNS-servers and the site itself have been coming under severe attack,” said Maxim Kuznetsov, head of the RIA Novosti IT department.

      RIA Novosti’s servers are now functioning as normal.

      sorry for the OT everyone, but the georgia/south ossesia was such a stunning example of propaganda attack coordination it’s almost mind boggling, and of course 3 months later after all of europe/russia/georgia and the rest of the world knew what happened the nyt clued in americans. and yes, israel was training the georgian troops.

      • LeoBraun
        July 16, 2010, 11:14 pm

        They have orchestrated the massacres and slaughters of millions and millions of humanity so that their demonic gods will be appeased and grant them a new homeland in the near-east.

        Apparently, the sacrifice of hundreds of millions of humanity during the first half of the twenty century (including the six million Jews of nazi holocaust) have appeased their gods and their wish was granted.

        Always important area was the press!

        While in power, the Young Turks ran several newspapers, including ‘The Young Turk’, whose editor was none other than the Russian zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky. Who had been educated as a young man in Italy. He later described Mazzini’s ideas as the basis for the zionist movement. [Source secretjews]

  14. LeoBraun
    July 15, 2010, 12:34 am

    “The six million number has a history within certain Jewish circles previous to WWII, and it evidently ties into the number six itself”! [Dan Kelly]

    As early as 1900 zionist organisations were carrying on with the number six million! Go back to the New York Times of June 11, 1900, and read the report on Rabbi Stephen Wise’s address from the previous day: “There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of zionism”!

    The six million number was circulated by the zionist groups for some decades before Hitler even came to power: “While there are in Russia and Rumania six millions of Jews who are being systematically degraded”!

    Next Max Nordau at the World Zionist Congress of 1911 declared: “The same righteous governments are preparing complete annihilation for six million people”! (Quoted by fellow-zionist Ben Hecht in his book Perfidy, p. 254)

  15. LeoBraun
    July 15, 2010, 11:06 pm

    “The reason the number of Jews [murdered] is more precise than Russians or Vietnamese is because the Nazis … kept fairly meticulous records”! [Hophmi]

    • Now, why on earth anyone to keep so meticulously administered records of the condemned for the premeditated genocide? Not before each one of the victims being tattooed with a personal number!

    “Usually when people start to question the numbers and then start talking about how many Russians died, the next stop on the train is usually David Irving“! [Hophmi]

    • Speaking of which, apparently rail freight carriages delousing tunnels utilising Zyklon-B as a routine to fumigate the contaminated railway wagons (thus precluding a spread of the contagious diseases), undoubtedly could have been used to accomplish such a horrendous mass murder. Literature abounds with stories of misery and filth on the crowded rail freight carriages, “what in itself could have been reason enough for a thorough delousing of the entire train”, yet apparently none ever has been reported.

    Instead we’re inundated with stories about the “gas chambers in the concentration camps, where Jews were forcibly unloaded from the trains, compelled to disrobe and enter lethal showers setting. After the gassing, resultant victims’ bodies were sprinkled with a chlorine powder and tossed into the pits. However stench escaped into the air, what compelled the nazis to build crematoriums”!

    Reportedly, it takes 45 minutes on average to cremate human body, using scarce fuel resources. Ironically, nazis lost the war in large measure for the lack of fuel. No wonder more recently, Northern Alliance forces in the Afghanistan city of Mazar-e-Sharif have massacred thousands Taliban prisoners (suffocated by asphyxiation with a carbon monoxide), locked in shipping containers.

    Wouldn’t that “be simpler”?

    No conspicuous death camps, no trains using dwindling energy resources! If not for the Jewish prophecies in the Torah, that require that 6 million Jews must vanish before the state of Israel can be formed: “You shall return minus 6 million”! Tom Segev, an Israeli historian declared that the 6 million is an attempt to transform the Holocaust story into state religion.

    Those six million, according to prophecy, had to disappear in “burning ovens”, which the judicial version of the Holocaust now authenticates. As a matter of fact, Robert B Goldmann writes: “Without the Holocaust, there would be no Jewish State”!

    PS: The Greek word holocaust means burned offerings, therefore, did the prophecies have now been “fulfilled” and Israel became a “legitimate state”?

  16. munro
    July 16, 2010, 1:14 am

    Leo – “Northern Alliance forces in the Afghanistan city of Mazar-e-Sharif have massacred thousands Taliban prisoners (suffocated by asphyxiation with a carbon monoxide), locked in shipping containers.”
    Source?

  17. munro
    July 16, 2010, 1:19 am

    I see, you meant “more recently” than WW2.
    The Afghan ship-container ‘massacre’
    link to news.bbc.co.uk

  18. Kathleen
    July 20, 2010, 9:27 am

    Whatever Frum and Feith’s stories are about the Holocaust. They are both murderers of the Iraqi people. They both have the blood of the Iraqi people on their hands. Their families histories do not excuse their deep involvement in the unnecessary, immoral and illegal invasion of Iraq.

    If there is a hell they are going there. They will join the murderers of millions during WWII.

  19. LeoBraun
    July 21, 2010, 2:10 am

    “He’s busy ‘denying‘ the Holocaust”! [Donald]

    Sham knee-jerk-reaction perpetrator, find the gauntlet at your feet!

    • As a warranted challenge, versus malicious “holocaust denier” accusations. Voiced above, simply because a gutsy Jew dissident dared to question: Why on earth anyone to keep so meticulously administered records of the condemned for genocide? In the “premeditated fashion”, where imminent casualties were tattooed with a personal number!

    Verbose Donald, please explain to understand:

    Why anyone to waste their military assets and dwindling energy resources, particularly when being besieged? Lacking fuel for panzer, nonetheless nazis still to pursue their horrendous mass murder in a methodical fashion? Wouldn’t be simpler instead for these diabolical perpetrators of crime to carry out swift annihilation of an entire train in delousing railway tunnel or merely to utilise some redundant shipping containers?

    No conspicuous death camps!

    If not for the Jewish prophecies in the Torah, requiring that 6 million Jews must vanish via prescribed sacrificial ritual to please the insatiable Yahweh. Purportedly obligatory before aliyah to proceed and zionist state formed. No wonder religiously indoctrinated fanatics were deeply divided as to the scriptural legitimacy in a treyf creation Jewish utopia in Palestine. In the meantime gigantic internment several millions casteless Jews lasted for 130 years, during 1791-1917 period, in anticipation of the sacrificial inferno to come!

    Actions speak louder than the silver-tongue concocted lies!

    All categorically must now be re-examined, going back to the hey day of the rampant slavery, where unavoidably one stumbles to learn that Talmud encouraged slave trade while slaves were traded within the Black Sea region since the Khazars days of 4th to 19th century. Culminating in a colossal apartheid formation to horde six million casteless Jews within the area extending from Baltic to Black Sea.

    According to the Pale of Settlement, diabolical plot: denoting burning stake (pale) of the final solution (settlement). What meant to culminate with the six millions burnt offering to the insatiable Yahweh, purportedly obligatory before aliyah to proceed.

    Established by the royal Jewess, Catherine the Great in 1791, after several failed attempts by her predecessors (to remove casteless Jews from Russia entirely, unless leopards changed their spots by converting to the Judeo Greek Orthodoxy). At the end massive area of a gigantic ghetto covered 20% of the European Russia, as apartheid’s territories grew to include the segregated 15 Russian provinces along with 10 Polish towns and townlets.

    Thus contrary to the Napoleon’s emancipation campaign for the casteless Jews (climaxed in 1797, as Rome, Venice, Verona and Padua ghettos were abolished), their final solution was sought instead by the elders of zion. Adamant to sacrifice the scapegoated Jew lesser brethren, whose youngsters were prime candidates for Palestine deportation. Obviously, zionist bleeding hearts kept quiet apropos such a gigantic internment of Jews, which lasted for 130 years.

    Earlier in 1797, casteless Jews were briefly granted liberty, equality and fraternity by Napoleon Bonaparte. What got a fatal blow with the far reaching ramifications for the humanity on a whole. In spite of the crucial lease of life initially granted to the oppressed Jews in the Ghetto Ancona. As Napoleon’s liberation army set free tyrannised Jews of Rome, Venice, Verona and Padua ghettos. As liberated Jews were allowed to live wherever they wanted and practice any religion in open.

    Moreover imagine that during the siege of Acre (Acco, north-western Israel) a couple of years later in 1799, Napoleon prepared his astounding proclamation, first ever to declare the homeland in Palestine for the destitute Jews of Europe. If not for the elders of zion foul play consequences, invoked to retain the collateral human shield of the Jew lesser brethren. As a result Acre siege was lost to the crypto-Jew Brits at the time, along with the casteless Jews emancipation prospect.

    Of course zionists to deny it, yet Napoleon’s sway in a fate of the marginalised Jews was by far more significant than any recorded decree in his name, as by breaking-up the feudal trammels of mid-Europe while introducing the equality of French Revolution, was fulfilled casteless Jews emancipation by far, than it had been accomplished in prior centuries or ever since. Lest we forget that no one ever gave a damn about the casteless Jews, until the pivotal 1799 proclamation, primed by Napoleon Bonaparte.

    Made 97 years earlier than Theodor Herzl’s sly “Der Judenstaat” concoction of 1896, or 118 years prior to the crypto-Jew Balfour’s issued Declaration in 1917, or 123 years before the League of Nations split of Palestine to create Transjordan in 1922, or 148 years prior to the successive UN partition of Palestine in 1947 (based on Resolution 181), what paved the way for the zionist state of Israel. Carved purportedly as a “safe haven” enclave, to shelter Jews escaping persecution. Sadly, exploited on the false pretences to the detriment ingenious populace in Palestine!

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