This smart piece on Netanyahu and the lobby pushing for Iranian war is savagely titled: "Who Will Be Blamed for a U.S. Attack on Iran?" Hillary Mann Leverett and Flynt Leverett make the distinction between the "Jewish community"'s non-responsibility for the last disaster, Iraq, and the "pro-Israel intellectuals," including Ken Pollack and the neocons (guilty). (Yes but how many precincts of the Jewish community gave these stupid ideas aid and comfort, including the Union for Reform Judaism?)
The message of the Leveretts overall seems to be "Shout it from the rooftops now, while there's still time. Israel wants the U.S. to attack Iran. This is Netanyahu's wish, the wish of his government, above all, and of American Likud promoters and agents. And if it happens, the disaster will have been brought to us by Israel." The boldface emphasis is theirs:
At least in theory, Obama could say “no” to Netanyahu’s exhortations—but that “no” would become public knowledge within roughly 15 minutes of its ostensibly private delivery. And, if our assessment of timing is correct, Obama’s “no” would become public knowledge as the President’s re-election bid is gearing up in a serious way.
If Obama says anything other than “no” to Netanyahu, the United States will be committed to military strikes against Iranian nuclear targets. A U.S. attack on Iran would almost certainly result in a much broader confrontation between the United States and the Islamic Republic—with residual U.S. forces in Afghanistan and Iraq at high risk, the strategic outcomes from our military adventures in both of those countries in even deeper jeopardy, profoundly negative effects on the global economy, and international perceptions that reckless and “rogue” U.S. behavior in the strategically vital Middle East was an idiosyncratic feature of George W. Bush’s presidency forever shattered. These eminently foreseeable consequences would have a devastating impact on America’s standing in one of the world’s most important regions.
Some critics of the American invasion of Iraq argue that this decision reflected undue influence by Israel and parts of the pro-Israel community in the United States. As individuals who served at the White House on the National Security Council staff in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, we saw no evidence that Israeli officials and leaders of the American Jewish community (as opposed to some pro-Israel intellectuals like the Saban Center’s Ken Pollack and neoconservative policymakers in the Bush Administration) goaded the United States into invading Iraq. However, if Washington initiates war with Iran over the nuclear issue, it will be primarily in response to pressure from Israel and the more Likudnik parts of the pro-Israel community in the United States. And those actors will bear a significant share of the blame for the consequences of that war.
One doesn’t need a PhD to understand that most of America’s conflicts and wars have been been the brainchilds of Jewish lobby groups who control the country’s mainstream media and all government and military institutions. Their grip on American thinking can be judged by the recent villification of Lebanese Christian White House press icon Helen Thomas and CNN’s firing of its senior Middle East editor for 20 years, Octavia Nasr, for ‘feeling sorry’ at the death of Sheikh Faddallah in Lebanon.
Iran has not invaded any of its neighbors for the last 150 years – while Israel has invaded and occupied parts of all of its neighboring countries since it was created by Russia, Britain and America. Israel is on record for threatening to nuke Arab capitals but also some European nations too.
Professor Dr. Steven R. Feldman (Wake Forest University) in an article, titled “A Jewish American’s Evolving View of Israel”, published in ‘The American Council for Judaism’ – exposed the suicidal nature of Israel.
link to rehmat2.wordpress.com
“One doesn’t need a PhD to understand that most of America’s conflicts and wars have been been the brainchilds of Jewish lobby groups who control the country’s mainstream media and all government and military institutions.”
Oh yes indeedy-do, changing the “special relationship” with Israel is going to be fun. If the discussion get too restrained or dispassionate, we can always pop some balloons or something!
Of course, if Israel and Zionists weren’t meddling in American politics, we’d get blamed for grinding up Christian babies for matzohs, so what’s the difference, huh? Might as well be hung for a goat as a sheep.
Feb 2007 While Jewish communal leaders focus most of their current lobbying efforts on pressing the United States to take a tough line against Iran and its nuclear program, some are privately voicing fears that they will be accused of driving America into a war with the regime in Tehran.
2007 Israel, U.S. Jews Intensify Efforts To Isolate Iran
A renewed push from Jewish organizations for tougher sanctions against Iran is facing tough obstacles in Washington and capitals throughout the world.
American Jewish groups are aggressively attempting to rally support for isolating Iran until it ends its suspected nuclear weapons program. They are lobbying Congress, reaching out to friendly nations overseas and seeking allies in the United States.
Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, is warning that Iran is close to acquiring the knowledge it needs to build nuclear weapons.
Officials at the Anti-Defamation League have launched a campaign in support of tougher sanctions, and recently pressed the issue in a meeting in Moscow with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. Also, the American Jewish Committee has been meeting with foreign leaders, including French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
In the latest manifestation of the renewed push, delegates to the General Assembly of the United Jewish Communities in Nashville are expected to be asked Monday to vote on a resolution calling on federations and Jewish community relations councils to move on the Iran issue by initiating, coordinating and funding “expanded efforts aimed at both educating and mobilizing the Jewish community as well as partnering with other respected members in the broader community.”
The resolution calls on federations to reach out to “elected officials, civic and religious groups, labor unions and think tanks, academics and student groups, human rights organizations and business associations.”
This new push comes as Israeli and Jewish organizational leaders say stopping Iran’s nuclear program is a life-and-death issue that must be addressed now.
“There is a civilian program, a secret weapons program, and Iran is expanding its ballistic missile power,” Israeli Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz told reporters here on Nov. 8.
Mofaz, who is serving as Jerusalem’s lead negotiator in the U.S.-Israel strategic dialogue, said the need to isolate Iran had increased urgency. He pointed to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s announcement that his country is now operating 3,000 centrifuges — the number required to enrich bomb-grade uranium.
The Israeli minister wants the U.N. Security Council to issue a third set of sanctions targeting Iran, ones that would effectively cripple the Iranian economy. Two earlier sets, targeting individuals and some companies, have not yet had an appreciable impact.
Mofaz emerged from his meeting in Washington with a U.S. pledge to set up two task forces — one to promote Iran sanctions and the other to share intelligence on Iran.
Efforts by American Jewish groups would get a boost from legislation passed this year in the U.S. House of Representatives and under consideration in the Senate.
The bills, initiated by U.S. Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), would assist civil society groups seeking to divest from Iran by publicizing companies with investments in Iran and providing tort protections from investors.
Another measure approved by the House and awaiting action in the Senate essentially would criminalize dealings with any individual or entity that deals with Iran’s energy sector. Such a measure would severely restrict Iranian business in a world financial system that at some point runs the bulk of its transactions through U.S. financial institutions.
The push for additional U.S. and U.N. sanctions are facing tough obstacles.
In Washington, the Bush administration opposes the bills making their way through Congress, in large part because the White House opposes any infringement on its powers.
In Europe and elsewhere, influential countries deeply involved in Iran’s consumer markets — including Germany, Italy, Russia and China — want time to disentangle thousands of businesses that trade with the Islamic Republic before plunging into sanctions.
Jewish organizational leaders met not long ago with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, but failed to persuade her to pressure businesses in her country to pull out of Iran. German officials believe that divesting from Iran will take years.
In addition to questions over how rapidly sanctions could be adopted and implemented, several prominent lawmakers and world leaders are stepping up calls for a different approach: comprehensive negotiations between Iran and the United States on a range of issues. Among those calling for an immediate diplomatic push are Obama, a Democratic presidential candidate, and Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), as well as Merkel.
Israeli officials and some American Jewish organizational leaders say the Iranians would simply use negotiations as a tactic for buying time, and with Iran close to obtaining the know-how needed to build a nuclear weapon, such delays cannot be tolerated.
According to this view, only a significantly tougher set of American and international sanctions will convince Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions.
Hoenlein said that as soon as Iran develops a nuclear capacity, even if it does not immediately manufacture a bomb, the Middle East configuration changes.
“Once you have the technical obstacles overcome,” he said, “the intimidation is already there,” and Iran’s backing of terrorists in the region will increase.
M. J. Rosenberg is frightened, and I think rightly so, that Israel will attack Iran. He says Israel’s fear is not Iran now but a future Iran that is nuclear which will mean the end of Israel’s having its way in all things in the Middle East which would no longer be the case if Iran too had nuclear weapons. Israel is not, nor has it ever feared an attack by Iran. It fears the end of its superpower. Think of it as a case when an asthmatic is told that his or her oxygen supply is soon to run out and you will understand the danger of Israel’s desperation. Listen to the interview with Rosenberg on Sunday’s July 11th WBAI Beyond the Pale program:
link to archive.wbai.org
>> Israel is not, nor has it ever feared an attack by Iran. It fears the end of its superpower.
It’s tough being a (scared, “generation to generation”-scarred, “long-term exile”) oppressive bully when your “98lb. weakling” victims are now Charles Atlas-types w/ brass knuckles. What to do, what to do. Offer peace, a just settlement, reparations, a “better argument”, true justice? Nah…just pull out the gun and shoot the fuckers before they lay a hand on ya. Yeah, that’ll make everything peachy…
When the Soviet Union got the bomb and ended the American nuclear monopoly, it was not the end of the world. In fact, in the end it probably ended up being a benefit to the United States, by keeping us out of stupid wars and adventures.
The Leveretts agree with Rosenberg’s thinking that fear of attack by Iran is not the problem. “The real problem, from an Israeli perspective, is that a nuclear-capable Iran might, at the margins, begin to impose some limits on Israel’s current freedom to use military force unilaterally, wherever it wants, and for whatever purpose it favors.”
“Mooser,
The reason that Phil invites me at all is that he finds value in different perspectives being expressed.
If you are supportive of his effort, then you will invite other comment, not ridicule. (I have faith that you actually have a life.)
Do you know Abbie Hoffman? His family were also family friends of mine (far far less contact than with Phil’s family). Even my mother (who babysat for him) followed his nutty career. From his life as a budding intellectual at Brandeis, to “Steal this Book”, to a productive career as a clean water organizer in upstate New York and Quebec.
He got a life. It took a while.
Phil and all of the dissenting community is more effective by addressing the opinions and needs of different perspectives, more than by dismissal or ridicule.
I am serious that ridicule dissuades prospective dissenters from even putting the incremental bit of pressure on American legislators or president and Israelis, that would be the tipping between the right-wing objective and more considerate one.”\
Richard”
Oh whoops, that e-mail to me from Witty wasn’t supposed to be in a comment box? What the hell happened? Damn I wish I had better computer skills!
Sugar-coated venom. Charming.
“Mooser,
My blog work is serious. It is not a mitzvah to intentionally disrupt work in community service. Its not “civil disobedience”.
As far as Mondoweiss, after my voluntary two-week vacation, after I received notices that my posts were being moderated, I personally asked Phil if he felt that my posts were contributions or detrimental, and he invited me to return.
I would have hoped you and others would acknowledge that what I write under my own authorship is very distinct from what I write in response to the regulars at Mondoweiss.
Still, no defamatory post will be accepted at my blog. Its up to you if you want to be a hassle or a participant.
Richard”
Oh crap, there is something wrong here. I’m gonna log out and see if I can fix this thing, a virus I think I got.
i think i love you mooser
Annie, don’t fall for a guy with bad computer skillz, it’s nothing but heartbreak.
And besides, I’m not here by personal invitation of the blog owner. Just an intruder.
So you don’t get your posts bumped up to first place like some people do?
i laughed too hard that’s all. sorry, i shouldn’t have said that.
Coming from you, Annie, I can only take it as a wonderful way of expressing your good will, and appreciate it. Thanks.
LOL. Mooser! Hey, you mean we don’t get Dicky Witty’s real self on this blog? Anyone who’s been to Witty’s blog under his own authorship care to
tell us how the real Witty shows himself, as distinguished from how he appears here? Is he more like the old Abbie Hoffman, or the new one?
The e-mails from Witty are in reply to comment I tried to post at his blog. He wouldn’t post it, he wanted to keep the comment pages blank so there would be plenty of space when comments came in. I should have known I wouldn’t rate. He comments by personal invitation from Phil Wiess, and he hangs with Abbie Hoffman, and I’m just a schmuck from Bremerton.
And people have told me they heard it was actually Richard Witty who wrote Bob Dylan’s early lyrics. What does he need with a guy like me?
This, incidentally, would be why I didn’t bother to give a valid email address when I tried to post there. I rather understood he was never actually going to post anything contrary.
The Wittypocricy is in full force. Here he is, complaining about being moderated here, and what does he do on his own blog? A recreation of the Gaza blockade, maybe sans the assault weapons.
“and he hangs with Abbie Hoffman”
I did notice he wrote about Hoffman in the present tense. Maybe he saw Sascha Baron Cohen on the street once. Wierd! [sic]
Maybe he thinks he needs you to furnish dramatic contrast to his
cool, lucid–yet always empathetic mind?
“his cool, lucid–yet always empathetic mind?”
No wonder Phil begged him to keep posting, and promised him the top spot on every thread!
Maybe Witty had Abbie Hoffman talk to Phil ? No, Abbie would have insisted I get banned.
I’m still hoping to get promoted to real comments, not just replies.
“As individuals who served at the White House on the National Security Council staff in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, we saw no evidence that Israeli officials and leaders of the American Jewish community . . . goaded the United States into invading Iraq.”
Toledo refreshed the Leveretts’ memory:
oooops.
My, that sounds familiar!
Your point?
You’re kidding, right? He just made a fool of you and you’re going to stand there with your virtual pants around your ankles, pretending like you’re decent?
“As individuals who served at the White House on the National Security Council staff in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, we saw no evidence that Israeli officials and leaders of the American Jewish community . . . goaded the United States into invading Iraq.”
That’s becasue the Israelis were based at the Pentagon.
The debate on the influence of Israeli agents in shaping the war on Iraq and Afghanustan continues to evolve.It would have beena a closed chapter with an “yes” verdict if the war went as planned -.ie.mimimum American losses and maximum regional destabilization. It did not. This why Pearle and Tom Friedman ever to go back to their claims of shaping and waging this war for years.So did Wurmser who never repeated same what he said when the statue of saddam came down .
It would have beena a closed chapter with an “yes” verdict if the war went as planned -.ie.mimimum American losses and maximum regional destabilization.
oh please!!! it went as planned, don’t you recall cheney’s foreign policy adviser and one of the topdog neocon’s michael ledeen blathering ‘faster please!” make the ME a “caldron of fire!!” .. here’s greenwald setting the record on that. elliot abrams didn’t get the nickname mr peace thru civil war for nuthin.
If one study Israel history from object sources – one would be surprised to learn that Israel may have lost in PR but always reaped economic and military benefits from all its conflicts and wars. Mmmay it be Lebanon war, Iraq war, Afghan war or even Gaza blockade.
The Israeli apologists rants that the blockade of Gaza, though hurts Israelis economically, must be kept in force to stop Islamic Resistance receiving arms from its supporters in Islamic Iran, Turkey, Syria and Lebanon. However, in reality, Zionist entity is heaping economic benefits from its blockade of Gaza and the West Bank. Before the blockade, Israelis used to exploit Palestinian natural resource and cheap labor – and now the Shylocks have found way to gain profit from their blockade.
The Gaza Strip is the most aid-dependent area in the world. Without the ability to export and to import raw materials, without the needed infrastructure for local industry, the Gaza Strip is unable to generate sufficient local income to sustain its population and must depend on aid. The Israeli siege thus creates the conditions for large amounts of aid to be sent to Gaza.
link to rehmat2.wordpress.com
“and now the Shylocks”
Buddy, you are riding for a fall, a hard one. I don’t think you quite know where you are.
Agreed Mooser. It’s not on.
And besides, if I remember aright, Shylock was just about the most sympathetic character in the play, in many ways.
But then again, I’m aware that for every “Shylock” there’s a thousand “Caliphates” and “death-cult” and a million other things. And when that door opened, the door to an unlimited bigotry of language against Muslims, the Zionist supporters rushed right through. And now that they have shown the level and type of language that best moves people, everybody wants to use what seems to work. Can’t blame them.
But at any rate, you do wanna keep away from Shylock, and brush up your Shakespeare. Hmmm…
Brush Up Your Yiddish!
Start shmoozing right now!
Brush Up Your Yiddish!
And the prietztehs you will wow!
When she says: “Platsin zuls du!”
Tell her: “Gai avek!”
If she says: “Farmach dos moyl!”
Say: “You’re full of drek”
Oh, Brush Up Your Yiddish,
and the….
Sorry, I don’t know where this stuff comes from. But it does, and it never stops. Stop me if I’ve sung it before.
No Mooser, I think it’s established you’re a songbird that’s appreciated ’round here :-)
I too am disturbed by the revolting islamaphobia thats around, and how much airplay it gets among zionists. It’s schoolyard bully, elevated to the level of foreign policy of powerful nations, time-out required.
“time-out required.”
With unemployment this high, and scheduled to get higher, and so many people broke? There’s no time for a time out.
So the damage control begins even before the war does. This piece is nothing more than an elaborate PR scheme, so that when the increasingly evident American Jewish/Zionist role in the eventual Iran war is revealed (which will validate its involvement in the Iraq war and the goading of Americans into wars, as the Leveretts’ suggest but never confirm), the apologists can point to this article and say “See? there was Jewish opposition to the war.” The article even helpfully designates the group to blame for airing any grievances (the routine scapegoat, the Likudniks), all the while skirting any responsibility from the warmongering American Jewish community.
What evidence do you have that the American Jewish community as a whole wants war with Iran? Are there polls? And is there polling data on that with regard to the Iraq War? My impression was that the majority of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq War.
My impression was that the majority of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq War.
Polling data is useless. Polls also indicated that the American Jews largely sided with Obama in the settlement spat, before AIPAC moved in, made the Congress sign letters to the favour of Netanyahu completely neutralized Obama, sending him off to kiss the ass of Jewish leaders to make up for his antagonism to Israel. Where were the mythically progressive and liberal American Jews then?
Take a look at the major American Jewish organizations. If they are Zionist, they are supporting the Israeli propaganda of a nuclear Iran, the existential threat, and inevitable Israel/American attack on it. While people here debate the intricacies and viability of BDS, people Stuart Levey serving the Jewish community are actively pushing for businesses to cut ties with Iran and promoting sanctions.
link to thejewishweek.com
I don’t think polling data is useless, because I’d like to know if there’s a gap between, say, what the ADL and the AJC say and what many or most American Jews say. If there’s a gap, it should be possible to widen it.
It’s not just a matter of polling data, no matter how much weight you give it.
The fact is that the American Jews are a very politically active minority. Their wildly disproportionate influence in the media and politics is easily demonstrable and readily evident. It is only natural then that if there is any opposition in the community to the Iran war at any significant level, that it would reflected in the leadership of the American Jewish community. When, realistically, it has been seen the case that these very same organizations (to different degrees), have supported Israel blindly and these groups are largely politically homogeneous, and are of the warmongering and hatemongering variety as well.
VR has some interesting things to reveal about polls and the nature of their control by publicist and PR companies to gain the desired results. I agree with him on that particular assessment.
I don’t recognize the American Jewish community’s involvement in the Iraq, and most especially now the impending Iran war, any different. When I see many of the Jewish leaders, and members of political and religious organizations are selling the war to the American public either covertly or openly, and you show me a poll from the community showing the opposite, I will go with my gut instinct. This has happened before with the Iraq invasion and the pattern is being repeated with Iran, only the calls for war are more vocal and transparent.
i don’t regard ‘the american jewish community’ in a monolithic way. there’s aipac, there’s jstreet (i don’t think they are pushing for war w/iran), there’s also the free gaza movement in berkeley and jewish voices for peace.. american jews are not exactly small fries when it comes to the bulwark of the left of the left in this country don’t forget. i think it is quite appropriate to claim the major American Jewish organizations align w/aipac. but i don’t really think the major American Jewish organizations represent most jews. how many american jews do you know that don’t belong to a major American Jewish organizations ? i venture their are quite a few. the only major american organization i belong to is the dem party. most americans don’t belong to major american organizations except maybe a political party or AARP after they are 65.
i don’t regard ‘the american jewish community’ in a monolithic way. there’s aipac, there’s jstreet (i don’t think they are pushing for war w/iran)
Neither do I. But when it comes to Israel, there are rarely two ways about it, and if there are, they never translate into any meaningful dissent. You name J-Street as if its a significant example, not recognizing that AIPAC and J-Street are two difference faces of the same fundamental political driving force: pro-Israel advocacy. By engaging in the Hasbara disinformation campaign in the Berkeley divestment efforts, J-Street has furthermore made itself beyond irrelevant. Worse still, it has revealed its loyalties to be squarely with AIPAC.
And if there remains any doubt, here is J-Streets stance on the Iran issue, taken hook, line and sinker from an AIPAC press release:
“J Street believes that an Iran with nuclear weapons, especially one that continues to support terrorist groups, presents a major threat to Israel and American interests, and a challenge to peace and stability in the Middle East. The United States therefore shares a clear interest with Israel and the international community in ensuring that Iran does not acquire a nuclear weapons capability.”
And here’s the interesting part:
J Street is strongly opposed to any consideration at this time of the use of military force by Israel or the United States to attack Iran.
Which means that J-Street essentially pushes the AIPAC agenda, giving it a softer face of liberal diplomacy (sanctions and negotiations), yet it categorically does not rule out military actions. Certainly then when the time for military strike comes, J-Street can claim that all options were exhausted and a military strike was inevitable. In other words, it is waiting for its memo clearing the strike on Iran before their stance becomes identical to that of AIPAC. This is how it retains the illusion of diversity where there is none.
My contention is simple. If there is so much diversity in the American Jewish community, and opposition as well to the Iran war, why is not so easily perceptible in the media? It’s not even a case of the Jewish opponents of the Iran war being drowned out by the incessant calls for military action against Iran – as far as I can see the media is being inundated with news of Iran’s ‘backwardness’ and ‘barbarity’ and Iran just calling out to be “liberated” and neutralized for Israel’s “safety.” My concern remains: being a politically active group with the widest political representation of any minority in the US, it only appeals to reason that the dissenters to the Iran war & sanctions to any significant degree, that they would warrant some mainstream representation. But that they do not leads me to believe that there isn’t any significant dissent to the stream of American jewish thought that an Israeli/American strike against Iran is in the best interest of Israel/Zionism.
As a sidenote, I am not undermining the various Jewish groups who have courageously worked towards peace and reconciliation (such as JVP). But they are clearly in a very small minority and easily identified by their compassionate and genuine work.
I agree with you…
J-Street has turned into nothing more than AIPAC-lite — Why? My guess is they are advocating what their liberal interventionists are paying and calling for when it comes to Israel.
BTW has anyone been able to get into J-Streets March polling data — without being hit with a virius?
One of the things I would like to know is out of those approximately 6 millions Jews in the US (I’m guessing the # is taken from the last census?) — how many are contacted by these Jewish organizations that claim to speak for the United States Jewish community?
I’m part of a group that makes it our task to go to J Street meetings.
They are scary.
After the flotilla, J Street had a brunch/discussion moderated by a rabbi. I missed it but others of my group attended. They reported that the discussion was chaotic: people were shouting at each other; one women marched, goosestepped, across the back of the room, shouting, Nazi.
The dialog is always the same, no matter the topic: “Ahmadinejad said he wants to kill Jews;” “there was never a Palestinian state;” “ALL the news about Israel is always negative, media is ALWAYS bashing Israel.”
I was at one meeting where Izzeldin Abu Laish was the featured speaker. Four people from the audience took the microphone and, essentially, blamed Abu Laish for the death of his daughters, a repeat of the way Jewish Israelis treated Abu Laish in Israel. It was incredible.
These are my neighbors.
It scares the crap out of me.
“I’m part of a group that makes it our task to go to J Street meetings.
They are scary.”
Ultimately, in spite of all their support for a 2 state solution, they are committed to an ethnocentric state. I heard the head of AIPAC being interviewed on Antiwar Radio and in spite of his efforts to sound moderate and reasonable, he made come arguments that really stank.
1. He was only mildly critical of the Christian Evangelicals who support Israel becasue of their end of times beliefs
2. What he fears most is the day when the Palestinians call for one man one vote in Israel.
As we have seen many times with Witty, no matter how progressive these people claim to be, they are Zionists and ultimately, they are dedicated to a doctrine that contradicts al manner of human decency, human equalitry and justice.
When Abu Laish was talking to the press (he was weeping), 2 Israeli Jews ran past security to yell at him ‘we had to because you might have had rockets in your home’ or something like that.
Zionist Jews are too in love w/ themselves to look at competitors for land and resources as human beings.
I’m pretty sure Israel could kill babies as official policy and both the US government and the pro-Israel crowd would justify it.
I had heard of Abu Laish but not in depth. Richard Silverstein:
‘DR. ABU-LAISH’S MARTYRED DAUGHTERS’
link to richardsilverstein.com
Those speakers behaviour sounds utterly repulsive.
I’m not squemish about blood and guts but I had to steel myself before hitting play in the embedded clip. It’s harrowing.
‘ISRAELI TV AIRS AGONY OF GAZAN DOCTOR MOMENTS AFTER 3 DAUGHTERS, BROTHER, 3 NIECES KILLED BY IDF SHELL’
link to richardsilverstein.com
The memorial site for Adu Laish’s three daughters:
link to daughtersforlife.com
The regular US census does not ask anyone living in the USA (not excluding illegals) what his or religion is; it does ask for your race/ethnic identity (Latinos)–this is primarily to enforce quotas (under the less-than-logical theory of discriminatory impact), beneift minority enterprise (even, e.g., Indians, who come from the upper classes of India), and to disperse the wide array of federal funds to aid non-whites, who are presumed to have an eternal advantage).
sorry: what his or her religon is
whites are the only ones presumed to have an eternal advantage
We can understand why Obama is worried of losing Jewish donations ( big time) .But this fear does not explain why Obama is afraid of losing Jewish votes .Despite asserting otherwise Jewish people will be voting according to what is good for Israel and Obama knows it.
“Despite asserting otherwise Jewish people will be voting according to what is good for Israel and Obama knows it.”
And I don’t blame them one bit! The thing is, can we change the definition of “what is good for Israel”?
Sure, it’s on the change list, right up there with “what is in the best interest of the USS.”
maybe ’cause American Jews are scared?
That seems to be what the Leveretts believe:
(I re-jiggered the bold type: Leveretts bolded the portion of the quote that remains in plain type.)
Let me spell this out for Schwartzman:
“anything Iran might conceivably do.”
What threat did Netanyahu and numerous others in his train warn that Iran “might conceivably do” to Jews in Israel and around the world? According to Bibi, Ahmadinejad is Hitler, it’s 1938, and Iran intends a second holocaust of the Jewish people.
In the Leveretts’ words (Hillary Leverett is Jewish), what would be the “damage” to American and diaspora Jews of actions ISRAEL is orgasmic to undertake?
In the Leveretts’ words, “worse than anything Iran might conceivably do;” that is, WORSE than holocaust.
Who would set this “worse than holocaust” in motion?
zionists.
NOT
Germans
Nazis
Americans
Islamofascists
Palestinians
Turks
Syrians
Iranians
NOT
Ahmadinejad
Nasrallah
Assad
Erdogan
Lulu
NOT
Hamas
Hezbollah
IRGC
Basiji
Muslim Brotherhood
but:
zionists
zionists
AIPAC
UJF
ZOA
hasbara
WUJS
megaphone
GUis or whatever the hell group is
David Horowitz
the David Project
the Israel Project
Prepare the Nuremberg indictments preemptively; a war crime of staggering proportion is being planned.
(you out there, Schwartzman?)
Exactly. As soon as Israel figures out how to spin the blame away from itself, the attack on Iran will go forward.
The imperative now is to counter that spin, to make it very clear that any negative fallout from war on Iran must be laid at the feet of Israel and the part of the Jewish community that supported them on this issue.
Will this result in a rise in antisemitism? Certainly will. It thus becomes the imperative of the worldwide Jewish community and particularly the US Jewish community to pressure Israel to restrain its warmongering, which is bad for the Jews.
I can’t remember if I posted this, but I was watching Inside Washington, a weekly talking head show here in DC and Krauthammer is on the panel. I can’t pull it up at work, but I believe on the June 27th broadcast Charles brought up Iran and said something like “The upcoming war with Iran”, which the transcript buries as cross-talk between guests, near the end of the broadcast. I don’t know if it’s just wishful thinking on his part, but the others dismissed him. Here’s the link:
link to bob.wjla.com
former weapons inspector Scott Ritter was one of the first individuals to come out and say that the ultimate target for Israel and the I lobby here in the states was Iran. A must read Scott Ritters “Target Iran”
Just weeks after the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq many of the liars who lied our nation into Iraq turned their spotlight and lying campaign on Iran. Aipac started putting actions against Iran up at their site. Micheal ledeen, Reuel marc Gerecht, Cheney etc were repeating the unsubstantiated claims about a nuclear weapons program in Iran. Terry Gross, Neil Conan allowed one quest after the next to repeat that horseshit claim “Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map” Hell Terry Gross was repeating this lie herself.
All of the MSM outlets were allowing inflammatory and unsubstantiated claims about Iran to be repeated. Including Diane Rehm Neil Conan, Scott Simon. The warmongers have set the stage, demonized Iran…the stage has been set.
Let us hope that the U.S. has by now been too weakened economically and militarily to repeat the Iraq performance.
tweak your tinfoil hat, Lysias: the US is too weak to prevent Israel from doing whatever the fuck it wishes to do.
which was the plan all along.
Abe Foxman is on a C Span video, from Barnes & Noble in NYC, saying that, in the run-up to Iraq war, “Jewish leaders counseled Bush that Iran, not Iraq, was the problem” and should be the target of a military strike. They pressed their case unsuccessfully, and when the Bush administration committed to war on Iraq, the Jewish leaders communicated to Bush that they supported the action. The Deadliest Lies: Abe Foxman responds to Walt and Mearsheimer
Iraq was supposed to be the springboard for US domination of the mideast. First Iraq, then Syria, then Iran, then the Gulf. The neocon warmap had it all laid out.
>> Iraq was supposed to be the springboard for US domination of the mideast.
You mean “US liberation” of the mideast”, right? The US was going to spread democracy and be hailed as heroes. Now that Afghanistan and Iraq are free and prosperous, they can move on to Iran. Sure, Iran will resist, but they’re no different than any of the other Islamofascist states and people who “hate us for our freedoms”.
Abe Foxman correctly understood as did other Jewish leaders in collusion with Israeli Likuds that Iraq under Saddam was hollowed out entity , a shell of former structures and neatly destroyed by US-UK sanctions and Gulf War 1 whcih was waged at the behest of Israel and Kuwiati Sheikhs. It did n’t need anymore destruction. Foxmanites wanted this 911 opportunity to turn Iran into something like Iraq. Just as in any organizations ( even Nazi Germnay was not monolithic , neither was Soviet leadership ) so are in Israeli agents and organizations one will hear dissenting opinions in terms of priorities -i.e when to attack different countries of ME Lets start somewhere .What about from Syria? -is it before Egypt? or after Libya? or Yemen? or after Iran? -the questions will not be settled until all are turned into an Iraqian soup but the questions will never disappear from mainstream discourse .The war will always remain a pressing agneda that needs to be resolved to the satisfaction of the prime movers , the very body that moved the war to Iraq. Foxman can write whatever he wants but his attempt to throw cracks on W&M book is a colossal failure.
Who brooked dissent in the War against The Third Reich? The Zionist entity is threatening to murder Billions of people and they’ll do it too the crazy bastards! It’s Us v.s. Them, Good v.s. EVIL. You picked your side, Rich. You deserve worse than scorn and ridicule. You want a pat on the tuchas and jellybeans for your “diissent”? Move to Haifa. There’s a boat leaving tomorrow.
And green flying monsters are coming for you. Run into the basement and stay there until I tell you to come out.
Find any WMDs in Iraq, hophmi?
No, but I found a totalitarian dictator who killed tens of thousands of people and I got rid of him.
The dictator told me that he was depending on people like Chaos4700 to keep him in power.
“I got rid of him”
You are one brave hombre hophmi! But I think he abdicated as soon as he heard you were coming. Good thing Jews didn’t start the War on Iraq. And I’m glad you feel the price was worth it. It must have been an awful burden on you!
“The dictator told me…”
You talked to Saddam a lot? Wow! Witty hangs with Abbie Hoffman, and you chill with Saddam! You guys travel in exalted circles.
(When the ziocaine halucinnations get real bad, it’s best to humor the patient a bit. But keep them under restraints! Don’t worry, in a few hours they will forget everything they’ve said.
And keep the goddam straps on tight, they can wiggle out of anything!)
Wow, Homphi and his flat-footed neocons got rid of Saddam. You shouldn’t take credit for military successes.
It’s embarrassing to this blog you hack.
I’m not a neocon, Chu. Chaos4700 asked me whether I found any WMD in Iraq. I responded in kind.
As usual, people here take no responsibility for the consequences of the non-action they favor.
“As usual, people here take no responsibility for the consequences of the non-action they favor.”
I can translate! Anything an anti-Zionist says is equivalent to killing six million people. Anythin Israel does is simply a form of rhetoric or emotion.
Oh, haha . . . haha . . . you’re being a comedian right?
Keep working on it, Mooser, one day maybe you’ll actually say something funny.
“The dictator told me that he was depending on people like Chaos4700 to keep him in power.”
That dictator would be depending on the same people that Israel does rght hophmi ?
How ftting that the US supports tyrants in the Middle East and…Israel.
‘Likudnik parts of the pro-Israel community in the United States’
Why don’t the Leveretts just come out and say ‘AIPAC’? For several years running, sanctioning Iran has been a central theme of AIPAC’s annual conventions, which about half of Congress usually attends.
If you google ‘Iran sanctions,’ AIPAC turns up as the first, sponsored link.
Let’s give credit where credit is due. And if war starts, lay the ensuing disaster straight at AIPAC’s door. If Russian spies can be charged with not registering under FARA (the Foreign Agent Registration Act), so can AIPAC — in spades.
From the Bobbie Kennedy days on to the present, every attempt to require AIPAC (formerly an official zionist org) to register under FARA has been buried. On the upside, the WZO is registered. Does the US government do anything that is not hypocritical? Check out the weasel words in the FARA statute that allows selective enforcement regarding who gets to be made to register.
If the American Jewish community stands with the Israeli government, they are complicit and to blame. They shouldn’t be allowed to weasel. Thats what they count on to avoid blame: weaseling.
Blame for what?
So, you want to get into the endless debate about what’s in the USA’s “best interests?” Were you around for the Arab Oil Embargo in the 1970′s?
“Were you around for the Arab Oil Embargo in the 1970’s?”
If all you goddam Gentiles would stop driving on Shabbos there wouldn’t be any goddam energy crisis!
For making war on Iran, when they do. Scroll way up and see what the title of this thread is.
“American Jewish community”
Berthe ~ said community is not a monolithic entity. It’s not difficult. You’re commenting on a site run by, and with many comments by American jews opposed to Israel’s behaviour. You get that, right?
RE: “Some critics of the American invasion of Iraq argue that this decision reflected undue influence by Israel…” – the Leveretts
SEE: The Unchallenged Power of the Israel Lobby ~ James Abourezk, Counterpunch, 07/12/10
(excerpts)…A great many people believe, myself included, that Israel wanted Saddam out of the way because, while he was not really a military threat to Israel, he was a political threat. He was someone, like Hizbollah, who stood in the way of Israeli hegemony over the entire Middle East. That desire by Israel goes a long way toward explaining why Israel has launched so many attacks on Lebanon and Syria…
…We can almost certainly agree that Iran is another country standing in the way of Israel’s desired hegemony. I’ve been told by those who should know that the publicity given to Iran’s nuclear program is cutting down on Jews either visiting or emigrating to Israel. That is an economic argument that the United States should not enter into, especially by going to war on Israel’s behalf. But it’s clear that is what Israel and its supporters here want…
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to counterpunch.org
My understanding is that the official view of both Israeli and American governments is that US and Israeli interests are indistinguishable. If that is the case, shouldn’t neocons’ project be Project for a New American-Israeli Century (PNAIC) rather than PNAC?
N told FOX news that there was no daylight at all between the US & Israel–nobody contradicted him. Sammo via less direct avenues on all TV shows that carried the issue at all. How can the USA go wrong between Joe Lieberman and Wolf Blitzer?
Hmmm, I tried to register for this blog but something seems to have gone wrong. Darn computers!
There’s a lag for all newly-registered posters.
I wonder if he don’t need to get in touch with out inner dialectic here.
Maybe we need to think along the lines of “the worse, the better.”
Perhaps until there is war with Iran, and Bibi’s and Tzipi’s and Avigdor’s and Natan’s bloody pawprints are finally visible for all sentient Americans to see, we’ll be debating about The Israel Lobby 100 years from now.
Yes, it will be a disaster. Yes, $10.00 a gallon gasoline will be a bitch, and no doubt that will be the least of it, along with the collapse of the entire US position within the Arab/Moslem world, but finally the scales will have dropped from 300 million sets of eyes.
And the rest, as they might say, could be history.
I personally await the day when lots of people, many of whose names are apinfully familar to the devotees of this forum, will be asked, in a none-too-friendly manner “Are you now or have you ever been a Likukist/AIPACer/NeoConMan or Israel Firster?”
terrific glass-half-full optimism there, Leper Colonialist.
Let’s see, what other terrific advantages are there to the Ewe Ess of A for killing 1, 2, 3, 10, hell, maybe 20 million Iranians?
you mentioned $10. gasoline as a downside, but hey, that will incentivize big bidness to invest in altunative forms of energy: think of the economic boom THAT could create.
And to show our compassion to the Eyeraniun peeple, we could build lots a coffins — that’ll get all those unemployed carpenters back to work. How long do you suppose it will take to build 10 million coffins?
And they’ll need concrete vaults to put those coffins in: maybe Israel can help out here, with all the cement they have embargoed from Gaza, and all the experience they have building concrete walls.
win-win-win, nothing but win, this whole Let’s Kill Iranians thing.
“And green flying monsters are coming for you. Run into the basement and stay there until I tell you to come out.” (hophmi)
How long have you been in that fruit cellar, Mrs. Bates?
There is a subtext or a tone to many of the postings and comments that starts with the assumption that American Jews are rich and powerful and exert too much influence in the government. I have no doubt that there are many rich and powerful Jews who push their agenda in underhanded ways, but to say they ARE the “Jewish community”(and to be honest I’m not sure what that means: anyone who happened to be born Jewish or Jews active in organizations or something else) is like saying the King of Saudi Arabia is representative of how the Arab community lives and that he represents their interests. But my personal experience is different, and a quick look at some statistics about American Jews make me feel that this view is off. The median income for American households is 42 thousand dollars a year. For Jews, it’s $50,000. That extra $8,000 a year is nice if you get it, but it doesn’t put you in another class. In addition, there are quite a few poor Jews. When I moved from my parents home in the suburbs, I started meeting a lot of them. For several years I was one of them. And I must admit, it does give me a cynical attitude when in all these discussions by very intelligent people, there is an unstated agreement by all sides that I am irrelevant, unimportant, or don’t exist.
Also, there seems to be an idea that Zionism is a raging issue among most American Jews. Probably, if you are really involved in Jewish stuff, you can get that feeling. But most American Jews aren’t that involved in Jewish stuff. (For me, this blog is about it.) Maybe some feel guilty about it, but most people who don’t participate don’t because they don’t care about it or don’t believe in it.
As for Zionism, I really only know a few hard core Israel boosters. The attitudes of American Jews mirror the rest of the Americans: They are given two choices: if you are conservative, you think we should back Israel 101% when they crackdown of Arabs. If you are liberal, you think the Palestinians should be given a mini-state, as long as it doesn’t interfere with Israel in any way. But most Jews I know, like most gentiles, are not following Mideast events at all(which is why I comment here: there‘s no one to talk about this stuff with around here). I admit there are many rich powerful Zionists who interfere with our system of government, but to pass the guilt on to all Jews-and to always be saying “the Jews this and the Jews that” is inaccurate, unfair, and really not productive.
It’s these rich powerful Zionists who spread the claim that they represent “the Jews”. It’s Israel that spreads the claim that they represent ALL the Jews in the world.
Whenever someone criticizes Israel, you hear a chorus of, “You hate the Jews.”
…and one of my points is when you respond in kind about “the Jews”, you are supporting the basis of their world view.
Well, it’s true in my experience that most Gentiles in the USA don’t follow Middle East events–the only thing, if anything, they can pull out of their hats is a few phrases they’ve heard despite their lack of attention, such as “special relationship” . “Arab terrorists” . “Arab hordes” . “little Israel”. “wipe of the face of the earth”…….
Fact is, again in my experience, most Gentiles think it odd that anyone would spend any time on the I-P situation–let alone US foreign policy in general.
It doesn’t matter. Very few anti-Zionists here (it comes down to 1-3 I believe) conflate Zionists w/ Jews in general.
We get accused of Jew-bashing not because of the profundity of the claim in and of itself but because of it’s political capital.
However, since we’re on the web – it’s a pathetic attempt to point-score.
Any Zionist who cannot construct a coherent, substantiated counter-argument will resort to mashing the big red button.
That’s why most people on the blog have a bit more respect for WJ – since he isn’t so blatantly dishonest and trollish.
I stopped responding to Witty and yonira. You should try it as well.
They are not worth it. Just let them continue talking to themselves.
“They are not worth it. Just let them continue talking to themselves.”
And who are you talking to, exactly, Cliff?
The criticism on this site goes way beyond Israel all the time. Phil’s whole mantra is to repeat an old canard about how Jews are only in it for themselves, and that the Jews, as rich, successful insiders (ignoring for the moment that the idea that Jews are significantly more affluent than the average American is a myth), should be held as accountable as other white people for their actions.
Okay, here’s a typical ZIonist hasbara trick: talk about Israel as if it was an isolated incident, one-of-a-kind, and as iff there hasn’t been oh, about five hundred years of colonial projects, and as if we know nothing about them. Then you seize on some stupid and meaningless (if personally irritating) rhetorical mistakes (a completely inaccurate and misleading use of the term “the Jews” usually) and derail the whole thing.
Holy crap, I just got a look at the sentence without all the subordinate clauses and parenthetical muttering (the sanity clauses, I call them):
“Phil’s whole mantra is to repeat an old canard about how Jews… , should be held as accountable as other white people for their actions.”
Okay, hophmi, that makes sense. But what if Jews aren’t white?
For the sake of argument, in scenarios like Phil’s, Jews are usually considered white people, ie people who are privileged because of the color of their skin. It’s imprecise, but generally true, I suppose; most American Jews are Ashkenaz, and don’t have trouble hailing a cab. But in that sense, Jews are no different from most whites in America, except that they overwhelmingly vote Democratic.
I’ve been around long enough to hear this argument before. I used to hear it in college from time to time.
The problem is that many Jews are also quite poor, though these are generally people in very religious communities and draw upon those communities for support.
It just baffles me that people argue that Jews care only about their own. It’s so far from the truth. Does the ADL support Israel? Sure. But in New York, it’s known as much as an organization that does sensitivity training all over the place, and no, it does not just deal with antisemitism. The AJC is beginning a mentoring program this fall with NYC high school students. These are very small examples of the work these organizations do. And of course, you have organizations like the American Jewish World Service that does humanitarian work around the world.
Jewish institutions, particularly educational institutions are always struggling because unlike the Catholics, we don’t have any real system set up to fund Jewish day schools properly. Most prominent Jewish philanthropists give most of their money to causes that have little to do with the Jewish community. The very religious tend to have more insular philosophy when it comes to giving, but they are under 20 percent of the American Jewish community, and they are certainly not alone as a religious group which practices such insularity.
Okay hophmi, you convinced me, Jews shouldn’t be held to the same level of accountability as white people! Whoopee! Let’s go crazy!
And I thought I was just makibng fun of a context/syntax mistake in a complex sentence, but I got a whole dissertation on how white Jews are, or aren’t. One thing about hophmi, he certainly give big returns for a small investment!
“Jewish institutions, particularly educational institutions are always struggling because unlike the Catholics, we don’t have any real system set up to fund Jewish day schools properly.”
I’ll make a contribution today. No way those damn Catholics are gonna beat us, hophmi! And I’ll be damned if I’ll see Jewish boys going to public schools to be contaminated by Gentile girls. It starts in the early grades, you know, and by high school, they are talking to each other! I’ve even heard of cases where Gentile girls learn Yiddish phrases like “nosh” or “schmooz” to try and bamboozle innocent Jewish teenage boys! Ah, but how you gonna keep em down on the kibbutz, hophmi, after they’ve seen the patrician insteps of Gentile women. Damn that mixed swimmimg!
there’s an extraordinary project that Jewish women set up in my community: a place for children of prisoners to wait while their adult guardians/parents visit the incarcerated one in prison. Important work.
hophmi, your statement about Catholic schools made me laugh out loud. Don’t expound on what you know nothing about. The Nobel Prize committee might get word of it and write your name in the Stoopid column.
What did I say that was wrong? Does the Church not kick in a lot of money for the Catholic schools? I’m not competing with anyone here. I think Jews should be more like the Catholics in that regard. Jewish education is far too expensive. That was my point.
a couple years ago a Jewish journalist at Slate magazine blogged the Torah: he had never read it.
Most Americans are too busy with their lives to pay attention to the details — where the devil resides — of Middle East politics and foreign policy.
But there is a compelling reality: The USA is waging war on Iraqis and Afghanis and lots of them are dying; most Americans know this. Most Americans know that American soldiers are dying. Most Americans know that their economy is in trouble. They just don’t know why all of this is happening.
There is another compelling reality: those few wealthy Jews that you admit “interfere with our system of government” do so in major ways — ways that have brought about the above set of facts.
I agree with you 100%, joer; it’s unfair, genuinely crappy that ALL Jews are lumped into the boatload of shit that has been crafted by a FEW Jews. That’s your problem. That. is. your. problem.
I have a different problem. My problem is that those few rich Jews who interfere with American government have fucked up non-rich, non-Jewish, Americans, THEN they call us non-rich non Jews who complain about it, antisemitic.
They won’t stop. Nothing I can do in a civil realm stops them: they’ve bought or blackmailed my representatives, they shape laws that can result in harm to me or mine if I rise up in opposition to them; they have the corporate ability to spy on my personal transactions and communications.
You complain because as a Jew you are unfairly tagged with the opprobrium that results from the action of a few rich Jews. I’m sorry for you. But I repeat, that’s your problem, not mine. You have more levers of power to change the situation than I do. Become active in Jewish groups and PRESSURE YOUR FELLOW JEWS to rein in the rich and powerful — don’t take your fight to Obama or to Washington, take it to Haim Saban or Sheldon Adelson.
That’s your job and your responsibility, joer, and whining that you didn’t cause it doesn’t cut it. I didn’t cause it but if I want a better world for my children, I am compelled to spend my time and money fighting a battle that I didn’t start.
Take your complaints to the rich Jews who are causing the problem; that’s what Joachim Martillo suggested:
If you want to save your Jewish neck, joer, you’re going to have to stick it out, but not into Washington or Iran or the non-Jewish community: you are going to have to confront the Jews who are stirring up all the shit.
Yes, Joachim Martillo, or as we know him, internet Hitler.
It’s called antisemitism, because it is, asshole.
I wasn’t whining about anything…I can’t really say I have personally suffered as a result of anything I discussed earlier. I’m just saying that I think it is a losing strategy to depend on ordinary people who happen to be Jewish to pressure anyone in power to do anything. I’m as powerless as you are. In terms of the Palestinian issue, I find the whole Jewish ethics, Jewish history, Jewish anguish tiresome and a distraction. In terms of the wider picture, this can be a wicked world and there are a lot of people who would be willing to cut your throat for no reason except to please their own ego-and-cliche alert-they come in all groups.
C’mon Joer, you know it is all the Jews.
I agree entirely with everything you’ve said Joer.
That is why I am so incensed and infuriated by any reference to Jews and especially “The Jews” when the subject of Israel comes up. Such cheap and dishonest tactics are nothign but a pre cursor to introducing the charge of anti Semitism. And secondly, I am particularly incensed that Jewish people should be maligned in any way because of Israel.
“C’mon Joer, you know it is all the Jews.”
Schwartzman
You’d be mistaken if you think there could be the least common ground between you and joer, (apart from being a Jew that is).. He’s one of the staunchest anti-Zionists I’ve ever seen. More like Avi and VR..
Thank you Shingo,
I can understand an anti-Israel sentiment, especially today. The last 43 years of occupation have been a horrible with the last 20-30 being an utter disaster. I get your rage, although on the other side of the aisle, I often feel the same rage. I have thought about giving up on Israel more than once, but then I hear people like PG and Debonaire and I stay resolute.
All I can do is pray to God that Israel starts to do the right thing, the government realizes they are digging their own grave, and the people of Israel realize that they need peace more than anyone else.
“The last 43 years of occupation have been a horrible with the last 20-30 being an utter disaster.”
And how about the 20 years before 1967? All good and dandy?
You see, this is a problem. Until you internalise the fact that the crux of the conflict, is what took place in 1948 (and well before in other regards) with the Nakba and the ethnic cleansing, not with 1967. Until your recognise those events as defining and foundational in their implications, your understanding of the conflict will always be flawed. It’s like seeing one leg of the proverbial elephant and think that is all what makes the frigging animal.
in a speech at Council on Foreign Relations last week, Bibi tracked the source of the problem to 1920.
He’s now demanding that, in addition to Palestinians and all Palestinians acknowledging Israel’s right to exist as “the Jewish national homeland,” that Palestinians be educated by their leaders to eliminate “the wish” that Israel did not exist.
Schwartzman, quit projecting you obsessive delusion on others here.
do you pray any of those prayers for the people of Iran who have lived under threats of military attack by Israel for over five years? How about Palestinians — do you pray to god that their unfathomable suffering will be made right?
I’ve looked in their eyes and seen their fear, Schwartzman. Israel’s fears are not real:
Israel is insane, and in its psychological, unreal state, is killing and threatening to kill millions of people.
That makes me angry. I love the Iranian people. I don’t want to see them killed.
I have thought about giving up on Israel more than once, but then I hear people like PG and Debonaire and I stay resolute.
great.
then my work here is done.
Debonaire, wanna go throw back some brewskis? Then I gotta paint the living room or the little lady will have my head.
PG ~ You’re not being consistent. In one post you wrote:
“I agree with you 100%, joer; it’s unfair, genuinely crappy that ALL Jews are lumped into the boatload of shit that has been crafted by a FEW Jews. That’s your problem. That. is. your. problem.”
“If you want to save your Jewish neck, joer, you’re going to have to stick it out…”
Your comments have been menacing lately. I get that you’re angry, but I seriously think you need to stop and take stock of what you believe in, what you want, and what you’re saying [and possibly doing] to bring that about.
If you’re not willing to reject and fight the “us vs them” mentality then YOU are part of the problem. To defeat neocons, you need to reject their Clash of Civilisation thesis, not adopt it.
On the one hand you say you think it’s unfair that all jews are being lumped together, but you propagate that mindset. In a heated thread a few days ago you were actually writing things like “be afraid of me, be very afraid”. The comment to joer above is along the same lines. Your doing more than just forecasting violence.
Let’s say the US and Israel attack Iran. Inevitably there will be some backlash directed at American jews. Given your recent comments I’m not sure you’d be bothered by that. In fact, I’m not even sure you wouldn’t be participating in that. You seem to be on the path of a “scare the jews into reigning in Israel” campaign. It’s a disturbing and dangerous way of thinking, that could easily spiral out of control.
I have thought about where this could end up. I do not share your view that a second holocaust is in the making. I believe that lessons *have* been learnt from the holocaust. I also don’t know if you actually believe what you’ve written about a second holocaust, given you have made statements endorsing a bit of fear for the jewish community. Is it a tactic or a belief? But this is a side issue..
So let’s speculate that there is a shift in violence – from isolated incidents as occurred in my city – Melbourne – during the Gaza Massacre (yelling at the Orthodox from cars, angry/threatening emails to various jewish organisations, i think perhaps one physical assault) to actual “get-the-jews” mob violence. How would you feel about that? Is a little bit OK, but not a lot? If, consequently, there were demonstrations in support of the jewish community – as I believe there would be in my city – would you be marching?
Why is it just joer’s problem if all jews are punished for the actions of a few? To me, this attitude is a corruption of what has made America great: liberty, opportunity and *especially* equality. Your thinking seems to be different, along tribal and/or religious lines. The impression I get is “I am American, and you (jews) are not. I am saving my country, watch out.”
It’s alarming, even more so because you know from Mondoweiss that an increasing amount of American jews are actually FIGHTING against Israel and against the lobby.
Sumud –
do you mean to suggest that I caused this violence?
(If I were to don the full Monty angry dude role, I’d say something else like, Goshes, that really violent; people yelled. ooooh. Anybody get four bullets in the head? But I’ll be civil. After all, the four bullets in the head incident was justified anyway. )
ps. Sumud, you and someone else pointed out that “PG is angry.”
Yes, I am angry.
Harriet Goldhor Lerner wrote a definitive book on anger and its uses. Anger is a human response to a serious disruption in the human system.
It’s been awhile since I last read Lerner’s book, but I do recall several passages, including the counsel to refrain from “marching off to war” before knowing what the battle is all about. I understand that to mean, be sure you know how it is that the system is disorded; don’t wage a battle on the wrong enemy.
That’s what you are doing: you have made me the enemy because I call your attention to the human reality that, as joer said, a few wealthy Jews cause disruptions in the body politic, to which there MAY be a tendency for some people to respond with anger and violence, ie. the Melbourne “violence,” misdirected at noncomplicit Jews, that is, the anger is misdirected. But inasmuch as your anger was misdirected toward me and not the real cause of the violence and of the situation, doesn’t that suggest that the tendency for anger to take the path of least resistance is a not uncommon occurrence?
Jewish people celebrate their facility with words and with rhetoric and argument; Herzl wrote about it in “Der Judenstaat.” But sometimes the intellectual delight such mental gymnastics stimulates causes rhetoric that is too cute by half: there is a very simple concept at play that you may enjoy twisting and examining from every angle, but the application of pilpul is not going to change the barebones reality the Leveretts — not me, a Jewish woman, Hillary Mann Leverett — pointed out:
here are the barebones:
Very powerful and systemic Jewish forces -Israel’s leadership and its American Jewish supporters — are acting in ways that are going to have the most dreadful of all possible outcomes for the Jewish people.
Getting angry with me for pointing out how provocations “drive a culture mad,” or getting angry at Obama for not being sufficiently supportive of Israel, are displacements of anger. I am not the cause of the situation; Obama cannot solve the situation because he is simultaneously enabling the individuals and organizations that ARE the causes of the situation.
If you are distressed — if something is causing your response systems to glow red, indicating a disorder in the system — you are going to have to be brutally honest with yourself to discover exactly what it is that’s alarming that anger light.
It’s a lot easier for you to rail at me, an anonymous blogger with no power, than it is to take on Bibi Netanyahu and Haim Saban. That’s the same thinking of the “mob” in Melbourne — they took the path of least resistance.
(If you knew who I really am you would know how laughably ironic is the warning, “Be afraid, be very afraid.” But you don’t know me. You know how powerful Bibi is, tho. He can wave his hand and four bullets find there way into your head. Wave his hand again and the four bullets, X 9, are “justified.” “Be afraid, be very afraid” — of Israel. I certainly am.)
PG ~ A coupla’ background things.
I’m not angry, and I haven’t branded you an enemy, so please don’t read me with that thought in your mind. In fact please re-read what I wrote, without thinking I was angry, because I wasn’t. I’ve just noticed your attitude has gotten pretty hard recently and I’m trying to understand why. Am I wrong in thinking there has been a change? Maybe you’ve been the same and I hadn’t noticed, but I don’t think so.
I don’t have a problem with anger, it’s just another emotion, but what you (generic you, not you-PG) do with it is what counts. If your happy to keep talking then let’s do, one Q at a time otherwise we will go off the rails will long long posts..
As I said before I don’t share your thesis that there will be another holocaust or mass violence directed at jews in the US. You stated that opinion a few days ago, and I wasn’t sure if you were saying it because:
1. you actually believe it
2. you want to scare the bejesus out of American jews so they work to bring about positive change
So is it one or the other, a combination, or something else?
PS PG ~ I do mean to get to the rest of your post above, just step-by-step.
“And secondly, I am particularly incensed that Jewish people should be maligned in any way because of Israel.”
And now we get to find out how Muslims, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and so many other feel. It’ll be good for us.
It’s painful, maddening, and frightening. It’ll be good for us.
And let’s cut the crap: As American Jews, we have a long, long, long, long way to go before we need to actually be afraid of anything more than embarassment.
When America starts treating its Jews with a fraction, a tiny fraction of the discrimination that the ZIonists have shown the people who were there, I’ll start to worry.
Your comments have been menacing lately.
how menacing? 4-bullet in the head menacing or just, geez, that makes me uncomfortable menacing? Worry about how I’m gonna feed my family menacing a la Ephraim Sneh menacing or worry that Iranians will become so angry about not being able to buy gas for their cars that they will riot and, perhaps kill another Neda, (the Dore Gold/Ed Royce scenario) menacing?
How uncomfortable do PG’s “menacing” comments make you feel? How realistic are those feelings, how rooted in an imminent reality?
Sumud, first, thank you for the measured discussion.
It is NOT my “thesis” that there will be another holocaust.
It is my FEAR that there could be mob violence that harms innocents. It is precisely the intention of US legislation sanctioning Iran that the people become so constrained by their economic circumstances that they will riot and overthrow their government. Ed Royce said those very words in 2007; Dore Gold discussed his book about dealing with nuclear Iran and stated exactly that hope.http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/288632-1
Why is it horrible to suggest that Americans — American Jews — should be fearful of the potential for mob violence when Israeli Jews and their American operatives are pulling out all the stops to make that happen in Iran?
I am haunted by the faces and the eyes of Iranian people who have told me that they fear what US can or will do to their country. I can’t get their eyes out of my head. The US and Israel have worked to keep Iran in a constant state of fear for close to a decade.
My purpose, therefore, is probably “2. you want to scare the bejesus out of American jews so they work to bring about positive change.”
I started out innocently enough — at least I thought so — reading and thinking out loud (ie. typing on blogs) about Israel-Iran relations and was very, very quickly shouted down as an antisemite. I was confused, and started to study the nature of antisemitism from every public library resource I could get my hands on. The study mushroomed, into Jewish history, Jewish intellectual history, nature of terror, propaganda, etc.
With that information under very dubious intellectual control (I’m not that smart or organized), I started another set of observations: how do people react and why? What pushes hot buttons? Are those reactions realistic or are they the absolutely to-be-expected reactions to years and years of propaganda? I think the latter is the case. It is extremely difficult to unwind half-a-century of very sophisticated propaganda when your only assets are public libraries and a temperamental computer. So you have to go for big effects while staying within the bounds of the law. I push, hopefully just a BIT too far, in an attempt to ‘stretch the Overton window,’ as they like to say on the big Orange.
(I recognize that the major focus of Phil’s extraordinary effort is the Palestinian people; I applaud that. I’m not so knowledgeable of the intricacies of Israel-Palestine as I am of Israel-Iran; I stick to what I know.)
Israelis rationally fear Iran. They maintain a proxy army on their border, with tens of thousands of mid-range warheads.
Without Iran, all of the militant states and militias would be entirely inconsequential by now.
Israel would have peace, and likely Syria would have the Golan, and Lebanon Shabaa Farms, and Palestine all of the West Bank and Gaza. There would be no cover for incremental settlement construction.
With the presence of threat, real threat, Israel defends.
In contrast to the accusations that “Israel is behind the Iran war drum as it was behind the Iraqi”, my suspicion is that the Persian Gulf Sunni oil magnates are larger drumbeaters, and more compelling.
I’d be curious to hear what the State Department Arabists think of Iran. Maybe they see hope in Muslim unity, and against a common enemy, except when the “enemy” does their military mission for them.
“Israelis rationally fear Iran. They maintain a proxy army on their border, with tens of thousands of mid-range warheads.”
Bullshit FuckWity.
There is nothing rational about it. Even Barak and Livni said so.
The lie that there is a proxy army on the border is just a cheap propaganda stunt by Israel to lump all it’s enemies together so that it can justify attacking Iran.
“Without Iran, all of the militant states and militias would be entirely inconsequential by now.”
You;re out of your fucking mind Witty.
Hamas and Hezbollah were created by Israel and their consequence is directly related to the occupation, and the Israeli murderous policies. There is no peace because Israel has rejected peace. Israel could have a peace treaty with 22 Arab States tomorrow if it wanted. All it would have to do is accept the peace treaty, but Israel is not willing to pay the price.
A peace treaty with 22 Arab states would isolate Israel’s enemies in an instant and make them entirely inconsequential. What makes Hamas and Hezbollah inconsequential is the hype that Israel makes about them.
Israel simply makes excuses for not making peace, because peace involved returning land it stole and Zionism is committed to expansionism and settlement.
“With the presence of threat, real threat, Israel defends.”
Bullshit. There is nothing defending about collective punishment, breaking ceasefires, stealing land, ethnically cleansing populations, mass murder, home demolitions and evictions,. These are all part of the one single policy.
“In contrast to the accusations that “Israel is behind the Iran war drum as it was behind the Iraqi”, my suspicion is that the Persian Gulf Sunni oil magnates are larger drumbeaters, and more compelling.”
Your suspicions are about as credible as your comprehension of reality. Israel has 2 nuclear4 armed submarines parked off the coast of Iran. There are reports that Israel has moved military attack aircraft into Azerbaijan, Georgia and Saudi Arabia. These acts alone are acts of war against Iran. Indeed, if Iran had moved aircraft top within striking distance of Israel, Israel would already be at war.
“I’d be curious to hear what the State Department Arabists think of Iran.”
There are no State Department Arabists FuckWitty. Link to the comment:
You’re nothing but a sick, pathological warmonger.
Enjoy your Israeli death porn you sick, sadistic freak.
Anyone know the reason why Witty has not become an Israeli settler since he has the same mindset?
What do you want from an older man? I know that I could never face the physical discomfort and danger of the settlements, and Witty is older than me. He sent his son. Can there be any greater proof of devotion?
“They maintain a proxy army on their border, with tens of thousands of mid-range warheads.”
It’s the opening sentence and it’s already bullshit..Bother no further..
Anyone who thinks that Nasrallah takes his orders from Ahmadinejad knows nothing about Hizbullah or the Lebanese altogether. You really have no idea, dude…
“It’s the opening sentence and it’s already bullshit..Bother no further..”
You’re right TGIA, Witty has no clue, but he’s not interested in facts and reality.
And notice the hysterical reference to the term warheads?
a) Not a single rocket fired by Hamas carried a warhead.
b) Neither did any of the rockets fired by Hezbollah.
c) Even if Hezbollah had warheads, all Israel need to do stay out of Lebanon and not attack them.
Of course, Witty knows the terrorist state of Israel won’t be able to help themselves, so he’s blaming Hezbollah for their inevitable attempts to fight back. Only non violent dissent is allowed in his sick and sadistic mind.
The guy is a pathological liar and war propagandist.
“Without Iran… Israel would have peace, and likely Syria would have the Golan, and Lebanon Shabaa Farms, and Palestine all of the West Bank and Gaza. There would be no cover for incremental settlement construction.”
One of the most ridiculous things you’ve EVER said.
I suppose it’s Iran’s fault that Israel confiscated all the footage from the flotilla raid too? When ARE you going to take a good hard look at “the jewel” Richard?
link to mondoweiss.net
“When ARE you going to take a good hard look at “the jewel” Richard?”
Probably becasue if he does, he’d have to realize it’s been a turd all this time. Better to keep the delusional image.
BTW. Witty’s claim that Zionism was about self governance is also a lie.
The object of Zionism is to establish for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.” … …It has been said and is still being obstinately repeated by anti-Zionists again and again, that Zionism aims at the creation of an independent “Jewish State” But this is fallacious. The “Jewish State” was never part of the Zionist programme. The Jewish State was the title of Herzl’s first pamphlet, which had the supreme merit of forcing people to think. This pamphlet was followed by the first Zionist Congress, which accepted the Basle programme – the only programme in existence. ”
—Nahum Sokolow, History of Zionism
>> Israelis rationally fear Iran.
And Iran rationally fears Israel.
>> Israel would have peace, and likely Syria would have the Golan, and Lebanon Shabaa Farms, and Palestine all of the West Bank and Gaza.
There’s nothing stopping Israel from moving ahead with these actions.
>> There would be no cover for incremental settlement construction.
This is the best of the bunch: It’s Iran’s fault that Israel is stealing land, destroying homes and building illegal settlements! Ta-daa!!!
What a clown.
>> With the presence of threat, real threat, Israel defends.
“What a clown.”
Yes but don’t you feel a bit of relief and contentment that Witty is not all that cogent or rational after all. That he says all those grotesque, outrageous things and we feel that it’s not really necessary to respond so aberrant his analysis is that everybody can see it for what it is. I’m glad he’s a nut!
A (nut) case in point:
“Without Iran… Israel would have peace, and likely Syria would have the Golan, and Lebanon Shabaa Farms, and Palestine all of the West Bank and Gaza. There would be no cover for incremental settlement construction.”
Ha ha ha ha…
Hey, if the Arab states can say that if it weren’t for Israel, we’d be democratic utopias with docile populations, then why can’t Israel say, much more rationally given that it’s the state Iran and the Arab states want to destroy, if it weren’t for Iran, we’d be able to make peace?
Listen hophmi..Israel made it clear that it will NEVER give back the Golan.
More importantly. Under the Shah, Iran was no threat to Israel, quite the contrary and Israel was already implementing a strategy of settling the OT and expanding the existing settlements…
Which is why it has been negotiating with the Syrians on and off for years. Wasn’t that the main criticism of Barak at Camp David? Well, he didn’t prepare the groundwork, and besides, he spent the year before negotiating with Syria and ignoring Yasir Arafat?
“More importantly. Under the Shah, Iran was no threat to Israel, quite the contrary and Israel was already implementing a strategy of settling the OT and expanding the existing settlements…”
Yes. That was more than 30 years ago, when the Arab states had their policy of no, and Anwar Sadat was yet to be assassinated for breaking it. Things are different now.
“Hey, if the Arab states can say that if it weren’t for Israel, we’d be democratic utopias with docile populations”
I guess there is just so much material, so many speeches, books and party platforms, saying that you don’t need to substantiate it.
Okay hophmi, okay.
“Which is why it has been negotiating with the Syrians on and off for years. Wasn’t that the main criticism of Barak at Camp David?”
No it has not been negotiating. They’ve been talking, while simultanously threatenening Syria with attack
“That was more than 30 years ago, when the Arab states had their policy of no, and Anwar Sadat was yet to be assassinated for breaking it. ”
And Rabin was assassinated for tryign to make peace. Nothing has changed.
Holy shit you have a lot of hate PG, well fuck you. To blame Afghanistan and Iraq on the Jews is a chapter out of the protocols. You should read it, you should see how you sound EXACTLY like it. Don’t try to mask your hatred of Jews, just let it flow you worthless SOB.
Good evening Schwartzman.
Pleasant to hear your dulcet tones this fine evening.
Would it upset you terribly if I drew your attention to certain news items that drew a connection between Israel and the Iraq war? Oh, too sensitive right now? OK, no problem; I’ll wait until your rage subsides.
You just pop in and say Howdy when your meds kick in, y’hear?
Til then,
Your in Christ,
Psychopathic God
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
“Holy shit you have a lot of hate PG, well fuck you.”
Yes, mass murder has that effect on those belonging to the human race.
“To blame Afghanistan and Iraq on the Jews is a chapter out of the protocols.”
Didn’t an Israeli judge recently suggest that Israel should follow the example of the Nazis?
Israeli policies seems determined to vindicate the Protocols. They say that Stalin’s parnoia was a self fulfilling prophecy, so one could argue the same about Zionism’s obsession with the Protocols.
“Don’t try to mask your hatred of Jews, just let it flow you worthless SOB.”
Zionism is a mental illness, so spare us the lecture.
“Israeli policies seems determined to vindicate the Protocols.”
If Israel’s policies and actions seem to conform to an anti-Semitic text, you cannot criticise them, because to do so would validate the anti-Semitic text! Hah! Wish you had figured that technique out, huh, Shingo! And since anti-Semities have, at one time or another, acussed Jews of anything and everything there really isn’t anything you can say which doesn’t validate some anti-Semitic text!
You can’t beat it, it’s the best, like complete immunity.
Shwartzman, I just read a comment from you in which you took personal credit for kicking out “the dictator” and liberating Iraq!
Shwartzman, I don’t want to shock you, but people are allowed to hate Jews, or even “the Jews”. I don’t suggest they do it, but they don’t have to listen to me.
So if you are counting on some gollem to come and crush them all you are going to be very disappointed. On the other hand, dreams of omnipotence and control and fantasies of revenge are part and parcel of the very traditional Jewish character. Comes from all the persecution, you know.
Oh crap, now I’m confused again! I thought Israel and Zionism was going to change all that. We never get a break, huh Schwartzie?
Where did you get the idea that Israel would end antisemitism completely? The idea is that antisemitism is always going to exist in some form, but that now, Jews can go somewhere to escape from it.
Sure, people are allowed to hate Jews. And I am allowed to call them antisemites when they do, and if they act violently based on that belief, I’m allowed to disable them.
Since Israel’s founding, antisemitism around the world has plummetted. We are seeing a resurgence now, but nothing compared to what it was in the past.
“I’m allowed to disable them.”
Oy! Such a tough Jew! The big disabler!
“Oder a klop, oder a fortz” that’s you, hophmi.
“Since Israel’s founding, antisemitism around the world has plummetted. ”
So has rascism, but that didn’t come about because black people were given a state to live in.
Jonathan Cook speaking about Israel’s fear of Iran developing nuclear weapons, and why :
link to youtube.com
The whole talk is worth listening to if anyone has the time.
That’s a fascinating clip lareineblanche and very enlightening.
It makes a lot more sense than the garbage we’ve been fed.
I belong to the Western world, one that is predominantly Christian but also one to which people of Jewish religion or background have made a big contribution, which I don’t wish to discredit or repudiate. Sadly the belief has grown up that there is some objective or scientifically ascertainable difference (other than a difference of ideology) between people of Jewish and Christian backgrounds, which there is not. Maligning Jews is basing malign remarks on the illusion that this difference exists. It is unjustifiable if we want to think in any scientific way. It is also unjustifiable because it promotes what it seems to oppose, ie makes Jews think ‘we’re different, we can’t trust anyone else’.
It does seem that the majority of Jews strongly support a belief system or ideology, Zionism, that I strongly oppose. It is legitimate – as is seen from the very meaning of the words – to oppose, sometimes to denounce, those who stand for something we think wrong. Of course this opposition has to be carried out without denying them their rights. They’re as entitled to denounce me as I to denounce them.
So much for the blind-leading-blind role-model’s charade!
• Evidently, it’s extremely difficult to unshackle the bewitched minds in coming to grips with the reality. Spelled out loud and clear right here!