From Huffpo, a piece saying that the peace process under Obama is risking greater violence. Interview by Shamine Narwani of Hamas leader Khaled Meshal in Damascus:
KM: These negotiations are taking place for American and Israeli considerations, calculations and interests only. There are no interests at all for us as Palestinians or Arabs. That's why the negotiations can only be conducted under American orders, threats and pressure exerted on the PA and some Arab countries.
The negotiations are neither supported nationally nor are they perceived as legitimate by the authoritative Palestinian institutions. They are rejected by most of the Palestinian factions, powers, personalities, elites, and regular people -- that is why these "peace talks" are destined for failure.
This represents a perfect example of how the US administration deals with the Arab-Israeli conflict -- how American policy appears to be based on temporary troubleshooting instead of working toward finding a real and lasting solution.
Consecutive US administrations have adopted this same policy of "managing conflict" instead of "resolving conflict." This can be useful for American tactical and short-term purposes, but it is very dangerous on the long-term and the strategic levels. This approach will ultimately prove catastrophic for the region.
SN: There is debate about whether Hamas accepts the premise of a two-state solution -- your language seems often vague and heavily nuanced. I want to ask if you could clarify, but I am also curious as to whether it is even worth accepting a two-state solution today when there has been so much land confiscation and settlement activity by Israel in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?
KM: Hamas does accept a Palestinian state on the lines of 1967 -- and does not accept the two-state solution.
SN: What is the difference between the two?
KM: There is big difference between these two. I am a Palestinian. I am a Palestinian leader. I am concerned with accomplishing what the Palestinian people are looking for -- which is to get rid of the occupation, attain liberation and freedom, and establish the Palestinian state on the lines of 1967. Talking about Israel is not relevant to me -- I am not concerned about it. It is an occupying state, and I am the victim. I am the victim of the occupation; I am not concerned with giving legitimacy to this occupying country. The international community can deal with this (Israeli) state; I am concerned with the Palestinian people. I am as a Palestinian concerned with establishing the Palestinian state only.
SN: Can you clarify further? As a Palestinian leader of the Resistance you have to give people an idea of what you aspire to -- and how you expect to attain it?
KM: For us, the 20 years of experience with these peace negotiations -- and the failure of it -- very much convinces us today that the legitimate rights of Palestinians will be only be gained by snatching them, not by being gifted with them at the negotiating table. Neither Netanyahu nor any other Israeli leader will ever simply gift us a Palestinian state. The Palestinian Authority has watered down all its demands and is merely asking for a frame of reference to the 1967 borders in negotiations, but Netanyahu has repeatedly refused to accept even this most basic premise for peace. Nor will America or the international community gift us with a state -- we have to depend on ourselves and help ourselves.
As a Palestinian leader, I tell my people that the Palestinian state and Palestinian rights will not be accomplished through this peace process -- but it will be accomplished by force, and it will be accomplished by resistance. I tell them that through this bitter experience of long negotiations with the Israelis, we got nothing -- we could not even get the 1967 solution. I tell them the only option in front of us today is to take this by force and by resistance. And the Palestinian people today realize this -- yes, it has a steep price, but there is no other option for the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people tried the peace process option but the result was nothing.
Meshal, the Terrorist’s gut reaction, kill 5 civilians(if this is the type of crowd that counts fetuses as living beings) to try and stop the talks. We’ve seen it many times. Hamas is willing to risk an all out war and death and destruction for their people to stop the peace process.
Hamas is willing to risk an all out war and death and destruction for their people to stop the peace process.
That’s unfortunate, what with Israel being at its best behaviour and giving up on killings, ethnic cleansing and collective punishment…
And stopping all construction in the west bank, too!
“Hamas is willing to risk an all out war and death and destruction for their people to stop the peace process.”
Isn’t that precisely how Israel was created? You see Schwartzman, who says the Arabs haven’t learned from the Israelis?
“Meshal, the Terrorist’s gut reaction, kill 5 civilians(if this is the type of crowd that counts fetuses as living beings) to try and stop the talks.”
Yet when Israel kills 5 or 6 Palestinians, it’s business as usual and doesn’t even rate a mention.
As Meshal stated, Netenyahu has already rejected th e1967 borders, so there will be talk, but no solution.
so there will be talk, but no solution.
And the West Bank will flourish and Gaza will continue to be a cesspool. The people of Gaza will be smart enough to rise up against their oppressors and join the Abbas/Fayyad government with a new State.
It will be fun to see Hamas use their failed terrorist tactics against their Palestinian brethren.
BTW, thanks Chaos for the most irrelevant post of the year. You spam the shit out of that link, no matter how far it is from the topic at hand.
Thank you, John Bolton, for your accurate predictions.
As opposed to what Israel did on November 4th, 2008?
How do cease fires end, really?
“kill 5 civilians”
They’re not civilians..Those are settlers, Hebron settlers!! The worst type ever! Armed to the teeth and hellbent on destruction..
Get informed!
It’s obvious that Schwartz has not actually read Meshal’s remarks. The Palestinian people tried the peace process option but the result was nothing.
The “peace process” is nothing more than a program of pressuring the Palestinian sockpuppet into signing a surrender of everything the Palestinian people value. Of course Meshal rejects it, and so should any honest lover of justice.
Speaking of Damascus, according to the Israeli daily Ma’ariv, Israel is at the moment mobilizing armored tank divisions into the Golan Heights in preparation for an (possible) attack on (alleged) Hizbollah arms depots in Syria.
“The Palestinian people tried the peace process option but the result was nothing.”
Who could argue with that?
You know who could argue with that…
Take a look at the following video posted by As’ad Abu Khalil; it gives you an insight where these “negotiations” are heading and how much the PA guys are begging for love:
link to youtube.com
Permanent war.
The problem for Hamas in the prospect that the PA will successfully negotiate a viable peace are twofold:
1. It isn’t us that are “heroes”
2. It validates that the Jewish people are a people, and not just a barely accepted insignficant non-peer minority in the Arab society; and as a people that they have and deserve a state.
Permanent war.
Abbas’ mandate ended 2 years ago and he no longer represents the Palestinians and even less those Palestinian-Israelis’ rights that Netanyahu is trying to indirectly suck into these negotiations. These negotiations between 2 illegitimate parties cannot lead to anything healthy for either of them. What is there to negotiate since Israel has made it crystal clear that it has 3 fundamental points from which it would never budge: Recognition by one and all that Israel is a Jewish state, that it’s not returning to any 67 borders and that it doesn’t want to hear anything about any right of return. Calling such talks “negotiations” is obscene.
If someone holds a gun to your head and abducts your family while burning your olive trees, would you say “all right, let’s talk about this over the course of, say, the next 5 years, and see where it leads”?
Waiting for a post on the terrorist attack in South Hebron Hills and Hamas’s claim of responsibility for it.
Why don’t you call it a “extrajudicial assasination” of “individuals linked to terrorism”?
That wouldn’t make it morally right, but if Obama and Netanjahu can whitewash their murder squads with such speech, why can’t Hamas?
Right, we forgot, the deaths of Jewish people are privileged over the deaths of Palestinians, or anyone else for that matter, such that hundreds of Palestinian children will die and you will be silent, but five Israelis who are basically involved in criminal activities get killed and we’re supposed to check everything else right in the dust bin and focus laser-like on that.
Empirical proof that Zionists are ignorant.
Hey, hophmi, I’m waiting for your denunciation of the genocidal remarks of Shas leader Ovadia Yosef.
Meshal is always solid on why the peace process is useless. wish he could explain what on earth he means by state in 67 borders but not two states. this ambiguity by hamas regarding what their political aim is has gotten very frustrating.
I agree Mohammad. I think it really keeps things stalled, including their acceptance as viable political party.
Which is ironic, because you are one of the most vocal Islamophobes I’ve thus far met who has painted every man, woman and child with anything to do with Hamas as valid military targets of the IDF.
MOHAMMAD- Curious, Meshal’s position is crystal clear to me. To support a two state solution is to support Israel as a legitimate state. While Meshal ACCEPTS the existence of Israel, he does not support it, rather, he seeks a Palestinian state which, under current circumstances, is obliged to coexist alongside the Jewish state. I tend to agree. To recognize Israel’s right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE is to legitimize ethnic cleansing. Israel exists. The United States exists. Yet, no state has an inherent right to exist.
What keeps things stalled, Witty, is incessant Israeli land theft, settlement, siege, denial of freedom of movement and apartheid. Whatever overtures the Palestinians have made towards their oppressors, including at one point renouncing their right to 78% of their own homeland, has been met with contempt and further colonization by Israel. We most certainly are not in agreement.
Keith, I appreciate that clarification. However, what I was referring to specifically is Meshal’s view on the realization of the right of return-it seems like Hamas is steadily following the Fatah path of statehood first, rights later. Hope I’m wrong.
Is it just me think, or there seems to be a pattern that when peace talks start, an American official visits or whenever Israel talks security, all of the sudden there is an act of violence of some sort? An act that will demonstrate Israel’s willingness to negotiate even under fire, an act that will show to the world that Palestinians only understand violence as opposed to the Israelis … Anyone noticed that “pattern” too ?
I feel sorry for the innocent victims but I really feel uncomfortable about the “event” …
OK you lefty fundie Mondoweissers (now that I got your attention….):
Now’s a crucial time for the Middle East. I know many of you guys are utterly cynical about 2SS. You’d rather cling to something I believe is Utopian (100% justice, 100% democratic, etc.) – but now’s the time to really ask – what is DOABLE?
Of course, we need to find a way to bring Hamas into the big picture negotiations (like Ali Abuminah’s great editorial in the Time) and of course, if we don’t, Hamas will continue to express their “resistence” philosophy by killing Israeli civilians.
Of course, Israel is the much more powerful “partner”, and if there’s any hope in the current negotiations, pressure by Obama will have to be applied, primarily on Israel.
Of course, past negotiations failed because of blind Western techniques, of (as Meshal says) “gifting” the Palestinians. Many Palestinian friends have told me the same about previous negotiations: Palestinians, humiliatingly, were handed finalized conditions, and expected to “yes” them.
ON THE OTHER FREAKING HAND – what is doable?
Mr. Cool Meshal thinks “snatching” solves things.
If these current talks fail, extremists (including Meshal, most of Netanyahu’s coalition, and many of the settlers) will be ecstatic. They’ll probably get the Armageddon they long for. Meshal (comfy in his Damascus digs) will get to do a lot of long distance “snatching”. It may lead eventually to Israel feeling so isolated they’ll “do” Iran (experts estimate maybe 10,000 Israeli civilians die, and up to A MILLION Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, and Iranian civilians die).
On the ground here in Jerusalem, cynicism is a luxury. Phil and others – along with posting all your cynical posts (from Code Pink actions to Meshal to satires about past peace processes….) maybe post some pragmatic thinkers and actions??? The right often gets its power by agreeing to put aside its differences, the left usually lets power slip away because it fragments, taking refuge in revolutionary ideas. What is doable?
Justice is not doable. Without justice, there will never be peace.
How was that supposed to get our attention? ALL the Zionists commenters here rabidly fling insults. Yawn.
What’s doable? Support grassroots organizations of Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, and others who see people on both sides as people, not as terrorists or demographic threats. Continue to reject the premise of the political mainstream in the US and Israel, which see Palestinians as the more violent side, while also rejecting any hint that the murder of Israeli civilians is acceptable because Israel kills far more.
Forget solutions, where the US engineers a civil war and sabotages an embryonic unity Palestinian government and then picks who it wants to represent the Palestinians. (If we do that with the Palestinians, why don’t we do that with the Israelis). Change the way the issue is perceived in the US and put forward the Palestinian case and then maybe the US government will act as an honest broker. It hasn’t so far.
>> Talking about Israel is not relevant to me — I am not concerned about it. … The international community can deal with this (Israeli) state; I am concerned with the Palestinian people.
Unless Mr. Meshal has decided that Palestinians should relinquish their right of return, he cannot honestly say that “Israel is not relevant” to him.
>> Unless Mr. Meshal has decided that Palestinians should relinquish their right of return, he cannot honestly say that “Israel is not relevant” to him.
Overall, however, Mr. Meshal (does anyone ever tell him he kinda looks like George Clooney?) makes concrete, coherent, concise and valid points.
The distinction between a state based on 67 lines and 2 states is still rather lost on me, since the 67 lines make no sense except as a line between Israel on one side and non-Israel on the other. Negotiations are rejected, but making demands which are limited (by reference to 67) is a taking up a negotiating position.
Consecutive US administrations have adopted this same policy of “managing conflict” instead of “resolving conflict.”
By sending $3 billion-plus a year to Israel — now a member of the OECD rich countries club — the US actually i>subsidizes the conflict and the occupation.
Follow the money — the bad faith of the US is attested to in every successive dollop of aid, which is never used as leverage over Israel.
By contrast, when Israel cut off Gaza’s customs revenues, Stuart Levey at US Treasury actually coordinated a global embargo on funds transfers to Gaza to help starve them out (or at least put them on a diet, as an Israeli minister quipped).
Why should the Palestinians expect a fair deal, when Israel has the 900-lb US gorilla on its side of the table, staffed by Americans with ethnic ties to Israel?
As the old saying goes, if you’re at the poker table and you don’t know who the bagholder is — it’s you.
Jim, it’s not only the Americans that are playing dirty pool with the Palestinians, the Arabs are right in there in bed with the Israelis so where can the Palestinians turn for support? Read about the fantastic business dealings going on between the brotherly Arabs and the Israelis and you’d quickly see that the Palestinians are fighting a losing war; from Ynet a couple of days back:
link to ynetnews.com
While everyone else is following the money, the Palestinians are left behind razor wire.