The Israel-Lebanon border continues to be inflamed, but it appears that I was wrong when I said that the Israelis were going onto the Lebanese side yesterday. A couple of friends have pointed this out, thanks. And apparently the Lebanese started the firing. Let's hope this is contained.
Guardian: "Unifil, the UN force that monitors the border, today said the tree was in Israeli territory."
BBC:
"The trees being cut by the Israeli army are located south of the Blue Line on the Israeli side," said Unifil spokesman Lt Naresh Bhatt in a statement, referring to the UN-drawn line of withdrawal for Israeli forces from Lebanon that was agreed in 2000.
Unifil said the Lebanese government had "some reservations" concerning the Blue Line in this area, but noted that both sides had committed to complying with the UN's decisions on the border.
Israel has welcomed the Unifil finding, saying it "clearly corroborates" the Israeli version of events.
However true that is, it is more important to note that the Lebanese Army demonstrated that they will take action against Israel. This is happening at a time when Israel is seriously, and again, considering an attack against Lebanon.
Oh yeah, don’t fuck with Lebanon!
They actually ADMIT in all honesty that they fired the first shots: as WARNING SHOTS (very civilized of them unlike some immoral armies around the world like you know who!). And so what at this stage anyway?! Israel has over 7000 recorded violations of the Blue Line since 2006. Don’t be shocked by the high number, just consider how often israel illegally breaks the sound barrier over Lebanese air space (we pay for the gas of those multiple daily missions by the way – costs israel nothing to break international law and terrorise it’s neighbors on their own soverign soil time and time again).
I just listened to Nassrallah’s speech of last night and oh boy: does he have tel aviv in his sights or wot?!
Summerized, he explains it thus:
The bulk of isreal’s populace, industries, banking, military headquarters, civic institutions etc, the important ‘chunk’ in israeli life, if you may, is in the heart of tel aviv and stretches only approx some 15 miles this way and that. He focused on this particular area. He warned for every ‘dahiya’ building struck inside Lebanon, BUILDINGS in tel aviv will BE instantly attacked. (no mention whatsoever of attacks against jerusalem).
He said: They will burn us, but they’ve burned us before and we know how to heal and deal. He warned: the next time around, the hizb WILL strike tel aviv and let’s just see if israel can really heal and deal.
I believe him.
The drama was hightened when he promised to present at a news conference he aims to give next monday, ACTUAL EVIDENCE that proves israel is behind Lebanese Prime Minnister Hariri’s bloody and explosive assassination.
Whoaaaaa!
This cliff-hanger is insanely steep and infernal!
you are such an effin war-monger Taxi.
Thanks Mr. Gandhi.
Thank you for this clarification. I saw so many ruthless comments before anybody knew the facts on the first story.
If this is the way that antisemites react before hearing even one single fact, glorifying Nasrallah, cheering the death of Israelis, what hope is there for dialog on this forum?
I would have commented but I am heavily moderated.
Wow,
You ignored all the atrocities listed time and time again here by Israel….
You must really be experiencing an existential crisis.
I’d been following the BBC reports during the day and was finding it hard, though I don’t treat the BBC as gospel, to avoid the conclusion that it was the Lebanese government that had decided to make a lethal issue of the border and the scrubby tree, and that by undermining the authority of Unifil it was behaving irresponsibly, even if it has genuinely good reason to question the Blue Line at that point.
I suppose that with the highly publicised Nasrallah accusations against Israel about to be launched the mainstream Lebanese needed to burnish their patriotic credentials and show that Nasrallah does not have a monopoly on readiness to stand up for Lebanese interests.
An Israeli lieutenant colonel was killed in the incident. Why send a lieutenant colonel to trim hedges?
The simple fact is that now Israel can cite this incident as proof of the Lebanese army’s lack of credibility and inability to adhere to ceasefire agreements. The situation is volatile. Ehud Barak was threatening Lebanon just a week or two ago. In turn, the border region was on high alert. The volatility of the situation required Israel — if it were indeed acting in good faith — to behave accordingly. It didn’t.
And the Israeli government knows very well that its violations of Lebanese airspace and waters goes unreported in the western media, while an incident like this one makes the headlines. It’s defamation by omission and Israel knows that it can capitalize on that.
Avi- My understanding is that the lieutenant colonel was not trimming the hedge but was located elsewhere when he was shot and killed. And his killing took place before there was any retaliation.
Do you agree that the loss of life is more newsworthy than the violations of Lebanese airspace?
There have been many incidents in which Lebanese civilians were killed as a result of Israeli “trespassing”, to say the least.
And I’m not about to distill this incident down to the most basic of terms because that suits your black and white paradigm.
Just last week, Ehud Barak threatened the Lebanese government, army and Hizbollah.
This provocation on Israel’s part served to validate the assertion inherent to that threat — that the Lebanese army is nothing but a glorified Hizbollah. That’s Israel’s contention. It’s Israel’s way of neutering whatever internationally recognized state-mandated powers the Lebanese army acquired as a result of the 2006 ceasefire agreement and subsequent UN resolutions.
Israel needs to do so in preparation for another large-scale attack on Lebanon since its representatives have time and again clearly stated that according to the Dahiya Doctrine Israel considers any structure, installation, and human who directly or indirectly supports Hizbollah to be a fair target. Essentially, Israel considers anything that moves in Lebanon to be fair game. The bombing of mosques, food factories and schools in Gaza confirmed that “broad” definition that Israel applies to the Dahiya Doctrine, the Mad Dog strategy.
So, Israel is merely laying the ground work in preparation for an attack in which it seeks to destroy Lebanon’s military and civilian infrastructure while drawing very little criticism. And that ground work requires the de facto reversal of the internationally recognized mandate of the Lebanese army.
It’s rather instructive that Israel is now demanding that France stop supplying Lebanon with military equipment. It’s also rather instructive that Israel is now lobbying the US congress to condemn and censure Lebanon and the Lebanese army.
One has to be dense not to see the political and strategic game being played here.
As for the specifics of yesterday’s incident, Robert Fisk reports:
[...]
Just ask yourself what would the Israeli response have been if the situation had been reversed.
It would have been a pretext for war, but given the situation, this is still an opportunity for Israeli military engagement – especially since the UN has backed the story. Although Hezbollah may be preparing for another fight with Israel as well, we’ll hear from the defenders in months to come ‘Lebanon started it’.
if the situation had been reversed.
It is, on the West Bank.
The most interesting news here is that Israel has put a fence way their side of a border.
And of course Gaza.
So what if the tree was on the Israeli side? The IDF has violated the ceasefire agreement many thousand times by invading Lebanon airspace on a daily basis. In combination with other mounting tensions, it is not surprising that the Lebanese are getting increasingly fed up and touchy. UN forces reported that IDF soldiers were specifically requested to stop the tree pruning – but that they ignored this Lebanese request communicated to them by the UN forces on site. They are pruning again today, according to the latest reports. Persisting in doing something that aggravates the Lebanese just because the IDF has the right to do it is not exactly exercising restraint or diffusing tensions, is it?
“Unifil, the UN force that monitors the border, today said the tree was in Israeli territory.”
Hmmm, I thought Israel had no totally defined borders, to allow itself maximum leeway when taking land from other countries.
Also the image shows Israeli troops on one side of the fence and the tree on the other. All other instances of fences constructed by Israel are invariably on other peoples’ land rather than Israel’s. Why should this one be different? Perhaps the Blue Line is a bit like Kill a Turk – i.e start a war, advance the Blue Line and rest. Repeat ad mauseum.
Oooops – messed up the URL link.
>> So what if the tree was on the Israeli side?
If it is clear that Israel is not responsible for this recent incident – if it is clear that the Lebanese are to blame – then it would be hypocritical to blame Israel regardless of the facts.
Israel is legitimately guilty of enough crimes as it is. No need to dump on it just for the sake of dumping on it.
eljay your logical statement is a good start
eljay — My question was why Israel persists in doing things that aggravate the situation. I can agree that uprooting the tree was a legitimate, routine IDF operation. What is unwise, at best, or offensive and provocative, at worst, is to insist on executing their pruning rights without Lebanese interference while violating Lebanese airspace on a daily basis — and then unilaterally blame the Lebanese for opening fire (warning shots, according to the Lebanese), with the IDF retaliating disproportionately, including firing on civilian targets. This appears to be a typical Israeli/IDF strategy. Like running an illegal blockade of Gaza and then defending their right to intercept an aid ship by force in international waters (similar disputes here about how far into international waters the Israeli navy can legitimately defend their interests)
Or, as Israel says, a “provocation.”
Israel’s opponents aren’t a choir of angels. They too can be devious and mendacious. If we dump on Israel ‘for the sake of it’ the accusations of anti-Semitism will acquire a sharper edge.
There’s more to this than meets the eye. Why send a battalion of IDF soldiers with a senior commander to “cut down a tree?”
Good point.
Why not let the UN forces do the pruning under such tense circumstances (say after protests and/or warning shots were fired by the Lebanese).
Yeah, right. Part of the UN mandate is cutting down shrubbery.
The UNIFIL mandate is intended to discourage ceasefire violations. In a volatile situation like this a neutral third party cutting down the tree seems like a very reasonable solution. Why the antagonism over reasonable solutions?
Israel should have a third party contractor clear the bushes. Then they can always claim civilian fatality. Using the IDF trim the hedges is suspect.
It’s like having the FBI write you a speeding ticket.
You know what their mandate is. Maybe they should have called in a tree service company? Do you think this is about tree pruning?
Well, maybe it is. I kind of like the wider connotations re Zionist dream/myth and reality. From the Jewish Magazine website (excerpt):
“In the latter half of the nineteenth century, when the Ottoman Turks ruled the land, the first waves of Zionist immigrants began to arrive with the goal of developing the land and restoring some of its former splendor. When Tu BiShvat arrived, they would assemble to mark the day with tree planting ceremonies. Clusters of young saplings were soon transformed into forests. Each forest that was planted brought the dream of a Jewish state a little closer — a dream that seemed distant while the land was under the harsh rule of the anti-Zionist Turks. Just as every forest was precious, so too was each tree.
The story of one particular tree symbolized the plight of Zionism in its earliest days and proved that adversity might be an obstacle, but not a deterrent. No impediments would prevent the development of the land of Israel.
While visiting Israel in 1898, Theodore Herzl sought an audience with the German Kaiser Wilhelm II, who was also in the Holy Land …..
As he passed through the Judean hills, he noticed its splendor as well as its barrenness due to neglect over the centuries. However, he noticed an island of green amidst the desolation. It was a small Jewish settlement, the only one in the area. The settlement, named Motza, possessed a population of 200 and was located a few miles west of Jerusalem. …
Herzl and his entourage proceeded toward the village where he was warmly received. As he rested in the shade, he gazed upon the land of Judea. The sun began to set and a variety of lights of brilliant colors reflected upon its hills. Captivated by the sight, he told members of his entourage that he wished to plant a tree at that location. He ascended the hill and planted a young Cypress Tree. The tree grew rapidly. Six years later, it stood tall and statuesque signifying to the settlers the Jewish people’s return to Zion.”
Kind of ironic to risk a major military conflict by uprooting a cyprus tree at the Lebanese border. Not exactly the best way to return the land to its ‘former splendor’
Israel’s love of trees is demonstrated by their enthusiasm for chainsawing Palestinian’s olive groves.
This tree-trimming is not a neutral act. It is a hostile act, to clear the field of fire. It is a preparation for war.
There is no way that the UN forces could or should assist in such activity.
Business Week today
“A clash that left five people dead along the Israel-Lebanon border occurred because the two nations couldn’t agree on how to remove a tree that was on Israel’s side of the disputed frontier, the head of United Nations peacekeeping operations said.
Lebanon didn’t respect as Israeli territory this spot along the UN-imposed “Blue Line,” said Under-Secretary-General Alain LeRoy. “They have reservations about the Blue Line,” he said.
Israel rejected the UN’s offer to cut down the tree and, after waiting about five hours yesterday for the UN to settle the dispute, went ahead on its own, LeRoy told reporters in New York.
“We asked for more time to ensure that both parties would agree, to ensure there would not be incidents,” LeRoy said. “Maybe we would have expected a bit more hours. Israel wanted to go on with cutting of the tree because they considered they had the right.”
Israel says Lebanon fired first. LeRoy said the Lebanese army said its first shot was a warning shot. Two Lebanese soldiers, an Israeli officer and a journalist were killed in the firefight.
U.S. State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley cited the UN finding as evidence that Lebanon bore responsibility for the incident.”
If the UN offered to cut down the tree as Business Week reports, then Israel’s attempt to cut down of the tree was purely for the purpose of asserting their right to cut down the tree and was needlessly provocative.
It does seem ‘needlessly provocative’, WJ.
Telegraph headline today:
“Israel blames ‘rogue elements’ in Lebanon as it axes trees
Israel blamed rogue elements of the Lebanese army for turning a row over the position of a tree into a deadly cross-border clash that has raised fears of fresh hostilities on one of the world’s most volatile frontiers.”
That’s quite a step back from interpreting the clash as a deliberate Lebanese ‘ambush’ , as they did yesterday. One wonders who authorized the Israeli decision to go ahead with the tree business and to insist on executing their rights. Rogue forces? Bored and frustrated IDF soldiers/officers at the border, with a macho personality? Who knows.
And why didn’t UNIFIL clearly mark the blue line anyway?
There is more to this than the simple question of whether the tree was technically on “Israel’s side” of the demarcation line.
Reports I have read state that Lebanese Army personnel first shouted for the Israeli soldiers to stop their border violation, then fired warning shots in the air. This was met with Israeli artillery and attack helicopter assaults on Lebanese positions, which set off a general fire fight.
Frankly, this account seems plausible to me in the light of Israeli policy to use overwhelming and disproportionate force to maintain their “deterrence.” The report in the Israeli papers that the Lebanese army first opened up with “sniper fire” seems patently false and within the usual Israeli pattern of claiming “self-defense” when they attack.
Lebanese: shouts (unanswered), warning shots, helicopter attack and then sniper fire.
Israelis: sniper fire and then the helicopter attack.
Bearing in mind previous Israeli and IDF statements, I’m going with the Lebanese version.
What else to expect from an Israel that keeps crying “wolf” every other day? It’s no wonder mostly everyone except the Zionists pointed the dirty finger at Israel.
Apparently, seeing any pattern here is anti-Semitic, even if the ‘deterrence’-strategy has long been openly acknowledged by Israeli military and political leaders. At the same time, it’s perfectly acceptable to Zionists to always point the finger at others. Never mind.
I don’t believe the Israelis or UNIFIL.
Yes I also did tend to blame Israel on this latest exchanhes of gun fire But i was golowing the age old tradition of ignoring the boy who has cried wolf for decades. Israel is afraid of Hizbullah.So are the corrupt fanatics regime of Saudi and corrupt secular regime of Egypt.
Tell me why the fence isn’t on the blue line, then.
“Tell me why the fence isn’t on the blue line, then.”
And tell me why of all the infrastructure in desperate need of repair in Israel, does Israel feel teh need to trim some hedges along the fence.
If this is so routine, where is evidence that it has been done before?
For the same reason the bulldozers routinely plow up every blade of grass in Gaza. So TERRORISTS can’t hide behind them and shoot at Jews!
Rowan- the fence is not on the blue line for one because the fence was built before the UN asserted the location of the blue line. The fence existed before 2000 and the blue line was only demarcated after 2000.
It’s not like the Israelis to not grab every centimeter they can. They should move the fence up to the goddam line. That would eliminate the ambiguities. Ambiguities are dangerous around there.
Fisk has this to say:
Blue Line history in much greater depth:
link to pulsemedia.org
Read this in-depth analysis/recommendations by CrisisGroup and shudder:
link to crisisgroup.org
The end of the world as we ‘know it’?
Taxi: I’ve been shuddering for months. The stupid tree incident is a perfect example for the Israeli analyst’s marble (atop) metaphor in the report you posted (good link)
“You have two kinds of equilibriums. The stable kind
resembles a marble at the bottom of a hemisphere. It
has no reason to start rolling. The other is where the
marble rests atop a hemisphere. It’s not moving yet,
but it won’t take much, and [then] nothing will stop it
from gathering speed. That’s the kind of equilibrium
we have today.”
Looks like disaster has been averted this time.
I been hopping around reading comments on this all over the net and I think we can say, bottom line, about ‘where the tree was’ .. is….no one cares.
Like the boy who cried wolf, people quit listening to the Israeli protestations of innocence in all their former provocations long ago.
So guess what?…the facts no longer matter for them. Damn!… the one time we didn’t lie and no one believes us!
So Israeli got ‘premptively’ slapped by the over zealous Lebanon Forces ‘concerned about their “national security’. Hummm… that sounds familiar doesn’t it? Hello?
So what next?….a million Lebanese must pay for one dead IDF?..isn’t that the usual routine?
Luckily the UN just ratified the world wide ban on the use of cluster bombs….but then israel doesn’t recognize international law so they might deliver some more to Lebanon.
It would be nice if there was a greater power who could tell Israel, “Don’t go there.”
Well I just used Taxi’s link to read the Crisis Group Report on the Israel-Lebanon-Syria-Iran standoff.
According to them Israel is ‘hesitating’ to start a ‘big’ confrontation because next time instead of fighting ‘only’ Lebanon or ‘only’ Syria or ‘only’ Iran, they would be facing the combined forces of Lebanon, Syria and Iran, and all their non state actors as well, and who knows who else, since they have agreed to come to each others aid in the event of an attack by Israel.
Most expert military men don’t think much of Israel’s military….Col Pat Lang who was pentagon liaison to the Israel military described them as undisciplined and more like a teenage swat team than a trained military. And they have a huge aversion to causalities… and conventional warfare on the others soil…which the experts say would have to take place because Israel could not subdue the kind of fighters and tactics they would be up against by airpower alone.
What it means it seems, is that Israel knows it’s going to get a hell of whomping and huge losses next time around, win, lose or draw.
And…….although the US might send Isr weapons and money as usual, the US, as of now, probably wouldn’t send our own military forces to fight for Israel.
So bottom line, if Israel can’t get a real over whelming force like the US military involved in their fighting and they have to lose large numbers of their own they aren’t keen to start that regional war…at least not right now.
I’d like to see the next war fought on Israeli soil for a change. Then they could truthfully say, for once, that they are only defending themselves.
Yes, the photo clearly showed the Israeli crane reaching over the fence to cut down the Lebanese tree, a skill at which Israel has become almost as proficient as it has in destroying houses. Given that Israeli officials have been speaking of yet another war on Lebanon, having not yet gotten over the ass whipping they received in the last one, they are just looking for an excuse to do it. And it is not just Lebanon that is in their sights as we know it. A friend has emailed me today that an anti-zionist friend who just returned from Israel where her brother is in the Israeli army said her brother told her that Israeli soldiers are preparing a “2-front war. Iran by airforce, and Lebanon on the ground.” At some point, the world is going to have deal with Israel as if it was rabid dog.
Good rationalization Blankfurt. Surely, you have bothered to read the press reports indicating that the fence is a hundred yards +/- from the actual legal border.
The “two-front war” you refer to is the direct result of the Iranian advance proxy army on Israel’s border. Somehow that proxy relationship is acceptable to you.
The photo did not show that, look again, lebanon is on the other side.
I’ve decided to escalate the moderation issue to the nation insitute, please let me know who your direct supervisor is at the nation whomever the moderator is.
My comments are delayed until no one sees them and the story is buried for a real purpose.
Please let me know who to speak to. The Nation stands for free speech and I’ll not accept the thought police violating the comments policy of this website.
“I’ll not accept the thought police violating the comments policy of this website.”
It’s not up to you your narcisitic little cretin.
I suggest that instead of trying to be more rigid, you try to be more unpredictable. Break your own rules sometimes and say uncharacteristic things. Then you might get let back on, irrespective of your views. The reason for banning you, I’m sure, is that you are just robotically predictable, which turns readers off in droves and wastes space. It’s essentially the same thing as banning spammers: they say nothing genuine, they are human robots.
“I’ve decided to escalate the moderation issue to the nation insitute,”
Why? Does the nation institute (sic) own this site, you simple minded putz? Wouldn’t you be better off addressing your complaint to the ADL..Aren’t we all anti-Semites as you systematically assert?
How do you deal with a nuclear-armed rabid dog?
“At some point, the world is going to have deal with Israel as if it was rabid dog.”
Like right now.
What a pity the US never sent it to obedience school!
What I find interesting is to find out the Lebanese motive behind the Lebanese escalation. I can’t answer whether Lebanese escalation was firing warning shots in the air, firing warning shots close to Israeli soldiers or firing directly on IDF soldiers, it’s a clear escalation of force anyway. Usually we see such escalation schemes from the Israeli side – and this time we see it, too, as Israel escalated the incidence by using artillery and attack helicopters.
We know from Lebanese history, that Israel has played very ugly in Israel. If Israels rolle in the Lebanese civil war is carefully examined, it could lead to the conclusion, that Israel perhaps inflicted even more damage to Lebanon than in Palestine. So we can assume, very many Lebanese don’t like Israel. But I doubt, that was the motive.
Not long ago I read in Wikipedia about the behaviour of US-army Captain Arthur Bonifas trimming a tree located in the Korean Demilitarized Zone on August 18, 1976:
I can visibly see how the Northern Korean officer Pak got more and more angry by the arrogant behavior of the representant of the superpower USA until he was fed up.
And now read in NYT about the Lebanon incident:
Lebanon sees the territory in which the incident happened as it’s own state territory. Lebanese objection? Israel didn’t care. UNIFIL shouting at Israel to stop. Israel didn’t care.
Lebanon compromises to the sake of peace. Lebanon doesn’t go to Israeli occupied northern Ghajar to cut trees without Israeli and UN consent. And the same standard of behaviour should be expected from Israel.
It was just needed for the Israeli commander to follow the established procedures with UNIFIL, wait for approval and they could have trimmed the tree they desired to. Trimming a tree is obviously not an urgent thing where some hours of time matter. But the Israeli commander didn’t care. He behaved like an arrogant bully, self-confident and confident that Israel can do what it wants follow established procedures, Lebanese objections or disobey borders like it wants.
I can imagine the Israeli arrogance was the motive that drove the Lebanese escalation of force. Sometimes people just become really angry when faced with the arrogance of the powerful. I believe that’s the story behind this senseless bloodshare.
Excellent comment. Very interesting.
‘That tree was in Israel territory”
Not so fast Mr Weiss!
“The trees were south of the Blue Line, but in Lebanese lands..
“Trees causing clashes with Israel “on Lebanese soil”: minister
BEIRUT, Aug. 4 (Xinhua) — Lebanese Information Minister Tareq Mitri said on Wednesday that the trees cut down by Israeli troops which led to deadly border clashes with Israel “were on Lebanese soil,” contradicting a statement by the UN peacekeeping force saying the trees were on the Israeli side of the shared border. “The trees were south of the Blue Line, but in Lebanese lands,” Mitri told a press conference in Beirut, noting “the Blue Line is not the international border, and Lebanon always has its reservations about it. Yet, Lebanon has always respected the line. ”
link to news.xinhuanet.com
TGIA- The tree was in territory that the United Nations recognizes as being under Israel’s control.
Look WJ…We’ve seen the eloquent photos and we’ve seen how Israel usually proceeds. Besides, notions like “United Nations recognizes” and “Israel’s control” mean nothing and its opposite more so to Israel than to anybody else. The land is famously Lebanese…
TGIA- If you want a war to break out between Lebanon and Israel, your attitude is right on target. I hope that the leaders of Lebanon have cooler attitudes than yours.
What I want is irrelevant..and I don’t believe Lebanese want war..only Israelis do…
Do you deny that Israel is actively planning for an all out war against Lebanon and beyond for that matter?
To me Israel means nothing but aggression, expansion and dispossession..I see them etched in the double helix of the very building blocks of the state..For everything thing else past present and future, to be understood it has to be seen in the light of this basic facts at the inception of this Frankenstein state..
I assume that Israel is planning a war, meaning they have a contingency plan for a war. I assume that they are consulting Obama and whereas in 2006 Bush seemed to welcome a war against Hezbollah, I don’t think that Obama will welcome a war against Lebanon/Hezbollah.
Your attitude may be “irrelevant”, but I certainly don’t think that makes your saber rattling any more attractive.
“but I certainly don’t think that makes your saber rattling any more attractive.”
And I’ve read some very relevant comments you made only yesterday and I know that when it comes to “attraction” your zionism and ethnocentrism turns my stomach..
“your zionism and ethnocentrism turns my stomach..”
turn not turns
“That tree was in Israel territory”
There is no israeli territory. It’s all stolen land.
Exactly hayate!