The other night in Jordan my wife and I ate at a fancy place and when the bill came, I had to walk off to the cash machine to get more money.
When I got back my wife was sitting with the restaurateur and two of his friends drinking tea and having a political conversation. The men were complaining about King Abdullah of Jordan. The night before the king's brother had had a wedding in the desert. 15 million dinar ($22 million). Earlier this year the queen had had a birthday. 10 million dinar. Then the queen was off to Italy to help the poor children of Italy. There are no poor children here?
I was excited to hear Jordanians complaining about their king. They spoke English well, they were thoughtful men. I sat on a plastic chair that a boy brought over.
The king doesn’t care about his people. There is a layer of rich people and then nothing-- and then there are the common people. Many make 3-500 dinar a month. But it takes 1000 dinar a month to live in this country.
I said, What will it take to change that? The restaurateur said, "Obama can change it, maybe."
In that moment, the conversation made a sudden turn.
I felt he was saying that the U.S. is propping the king up to support Israel and that only when American support for Israel changed would the corrupt dictatorships of the Arab world begin to loosen.
I said, “Do you think Obama can bring middle east peace?"
The man made a face. “No. He cannot. No one can do that.”
Why not? “When someone takes your land and your house, and makes you flee, and they rape your mother and kill your sister, do you think that you can forget that? No. No one can forget that.”
Besides, he went on, there was a difference between the Palestinians in the 67 territories and the ones in the 48 territories. In the 48, they are relatively comfortable, they can make money. But in the 67 it is a prison. You know, he went on, Netanyahu is more powerful than Obama. "Because what is the most powerful thing in the world, money. And who has the most money? The Jews. So Netanyahu doesn’t have to do anything he doesn't want."
I said, "But Abdullah and 'Asad just met in Damascus and said that they would accept Israel on the 67 lines. The Arab League has said the same. Why isn’t that possible?"
My wife stood up. "Phil I’m going back to the hotel." She finds political conversations boring. I told her to wait a minute.
He said, “No one can make a peace. God can’t make a peace. Besides, there are too many people making money off the situation.”
And after that we shook hands and left.
A few comments: I went to Jordan to learn more about the Arab context of the problem. And it is interesting that this man has a more sophisticated understanding of the root of the problem than most people in the United States, when he speaks so feelingly of the Arab dispossession and persecution of the Palestinians. Few people in the U.S. are aware of these things. Even though Brown scholar Glenn Loury talks about the Nakba on bloggingheads.tv, this is a minority understanding. If you read Michael Beschloss’s book on great presidential decisions or Robert Kaplan’s book on The Arabists, you will find that the creation of Israel is described as a great liberal advance. But it wasn’t a liberal advance. It was solving a European problem with a colonial enterprise that resolved itself with ethnic cleansing. The ethnic cleansing is remembered and resented across the Arab world. The Israelis thought that they could merely push the problem away, and they still think that, but it has haunted them.
The conversation reminds me of why I am for the right of return. Because it is way overdue, because as Gideon Levy says in his column that Adam quoted here the other day, it is the soul of the issue, because it is right, because it is about respect, because the U.N. demanded it again and again and again, and because it would heal more than anything else would heal. These old grievances must be dealt with. There is only one way to put them aside, acknowledgment, apology, compensation. And yes, restoration of villages and homes when people wish to return (without eviction).
The description of Jewish power will strike many people as anti-Semitic. And I guess it is; certainly it is imprecise and makes gross generalizations about a group of people. Some years ago Tom Friedman (who is rich as Croesus) spluttered that the Arab world is filled with conspiracy theories; surely he meant talk like this. While it is true that I should have said to the man that I am Jewish, (my wife was impatient, I wanted to ask him if he was Palestinian and didn't), I would just point out that his statement is consistent with, a, Seymour Hersh saying on Amy Goodman that the Iran bombing push is about “Jewish money” in the political system, b, MJ Rosenberg saying recently that Netanyahu has more power in Congress than Obama does, again because of election contributions/the lobby, c, Juan Cole saying that neoconservative ideas persist because half of the Fortune 400 billionaires are neocons (which yes is shorthand for rightwing Jews), d, Netanyahu saying, in a recently discovered video from ten years back, that the U.S. is "something that can be easily moved" (or similar words; lousy internet connection here). I have always said that an honest descripton of how much money Jews bring into the political process is necessary if we are going to straighten this issue out. Denying Jewish power is an intellectual dodge--yes, one widely undertaken to prevent another Holocaust. Well sorry it's not helping.
The conversation gave me a sense of purpose. Zionism created this thoughtful man’s rage. Which, yes, is shared across the Arab world. This grievance must be answered. Only madmen want to strip Jews of power in western societies. Jewish power is just the flavor of the elite these days, the meritocratic culture of the west. The idea is to change Jews. Young Jews, liberal Jews, aware Jews, empowered Jews, universalist Jews, led by people like Lynn Gottlieb and Rebecca Vilkomerson, freely acknowledge the man’s grievance and are working to change the Jewish adherence to Zionism. That is the most productive work I can do.
Is that true? I’m no expert on who is Jewish or otherwise, but glancing through the list at the list left I’m doubting it’s anywhere close to half Jewish, right-wingers and otherwise.
If that’s Juan Cole’s statement, he said “neocons” not “right-wing Jews.”
I suspect the two sets converge to a great degree, though.
Juan Cole didn’t even say that. He said that neocons “have perhaps half of America’s 400 billionaires on their side”. That’s not the same as saying that half of America’s 400 billionaires are neocons, much less talking about Jewish power/money.
link to juancole.com
(Of course, it is a legitimate question–why is it that so many billionaires see eye-to-eye with neocons?)
(Of course, it is a legitimate question–why is it that so many billionaires see eye-to-eye with neocons?
because that’s where the money is?
i would very much like to know more about this too. but i think it possible the neocons have control of wall street. i think it is worth researching the hamilton project/goldman/obama.
It’s also a legitimate question why so many billionaires decide to pursue right-wing Zionist causes. It doesn’t come automatically with being Jewish.
I’ve just started Yehouda Shenhav’s The Time of the Green Line, and he expresses a similar idea (translation mine):
Shmuel,
Where did you get the book? I’ve been wanting to purchase one.
Where did you get the book?
Tel-Aviv.
Tel-Aviv.
Ah!
Avi,
The publisher is Am Oved, and you may be able to buy a copy through their site (probably cheapest). If not, both Steimatzky and Tzomet Sfarim will ship abroad.
There is a difference between resolving the Palestinian’s and the man’s grievance and ignoring the grievance of Israelis.
As I stated at the Anna Baltzer lecture that I attended, peace is the only answer. Peace comes either after negotiations or after war, both result in peace (or more war).
“Who has the most money, the Jews”?
“Denying Jewish power is an intellectual dodge–yes, one widely undertaken to prevent another Holocaust. ”
If you are asking the question of “how can this power be used for good, rather than evil?”, good question. If you are asking the question, “how can Jews as a group be prohibited from power because of their group or sympathies?” then you are INVESTING in fascism, pretending to be humane.
In the Arab world, if you have the guts and means to inquire, there is similar opportunism, that uses the Israel/Palestine conflict as its means of attaining street cred.
I don’t think you have the means to probe that deeply, and would never recommend it for your personal safety.
But, if you don’t probe that deeply and take shots at Israel expedited by naziism, for being a “European problem”, not a human question, then you are again investing in a fascism.
And, you know that the traumas that the Jordanian man described also exist within Israel. Specifically, everyone that is over 20, knows someone that has a family member that was the victim of a suicide bombing, and to the extent that those occurred during periods of intra-Palestinian squabbling for Palestinian street cred, they know someone that was murdered for Palestinian bluster.
So, which of five possible options are you going to advocate for?
1. 67 or negotiated boundaries, separated communities, with gradual connection starting with academic, cultural.
2. bi-national democratic state magically not remembering that their cousins cousin was murdered in a suicide mission in a fight for street cred between Fatah (Al Aqsa Martyrs) and Hamas, and that their sisters were harrassed at a border and their cousins home demolished.
3. Palestinian dominated single state – with the humanist Palestinians advocating a single democratic state stepping down relative to Hamas, not standing up to defend the rights of their Jewish compatriots.
4. Zionist dominated single state – with thee humanist Israelis actually standing up to criticize their state, possibly better treated than otherwise if Torah is applied, “honor the stranger for you were a stranger in a strange land”.
5. The same as now, incremental heat changing water to ice (limited sovereignty to choked in fact, not just inconvenient).
Or, are you going to advocate for cooler heads, mutual acceptance of the other, persuasion to convince Israelis that there is a possibility of deep reconciliation with mutual apology and intention for better life.
I suggest that adding heat to the fire of a pressure cooker, will not result in a good outcome.
Or, are you going to advocate for cooler heads, mutual acceptance of the other, persuasion to convince Israelis that there is a possibility of deep reconciliation with mutual apology and intention for better life.
Incidentally Witty, how many militant Zionists have taken your advice of “enough Zionism?”
Inquiring minds wants to know the potential success of your constantly advertised peace plan.
Many that are confident that they will be safe. Not through me personally, but historically.
Please again consider that 200,000 Israelis attended single Peace Now demonstrations in the early 90′s. That’s what they were advocating, “enough” Zionism.
Witty, seriously. The rest of here are so G–d— sick of you waving your arms and panicking about pogroms that aren’t chasing you, and then using your delusional fears as just cause to have soldiers with Stars of David emblazoned on their armbands murdering Palestinian grandfathers, cousins and sons.
“Many that are confident that they will be safe. Not through me personally, but historically.”
Please explain how one is to be historically safe?
“That’s what they were advocating, “enough” Zionism”
Really? I never saw a sign that said “enough” Zionism”.
Of course these days, Israelis are having picnics on the hills as they watch white phosphorous being dropped on children. Evidentally, there’s not quite enough Zionism.
You didn’t mention another possibility: a binational single state that neither nationality dominates, because each is given veto power by the constitution. (I’m thinking of two legislatures, plus two executives, like the consuls of Rome. The constitution can also guarantee the rights of all individuals, whatever their nationality.)
“There is a difference between resolving the Palestinian’s and the man’s grievance and ignoring the grievance of Israelis.”
For those of you who may not be aware, these are the Istaeli grievances Witty is alluding to:
1. The are Arabs in Israel
2. There are Arabs in East Jerusalem
3. There are Arabs in the West Bank
4. There are Arabs in
Gaza
5. Israel is criticized for it’s murderous policies
6. Israel is criticized for ethnic cleansing and home demolitions
7. Israel gas to ask for the world’s biggest aid package, when it should be unconditionally offered
8. Israel is expected to behave like any other civilized society and adhere to the norms of international law
9. That other states feel they are entitled to nuclear power after signing the NPT
10. That other states believe they are entitles to defend themselves
11. That Arab states are so ungracious when attacked or invaded by Israel.
As Witty reminds us, there can be no peace until all these grievances are addressed.
You say honest discussion, but what you engage in is antisemitism and what you prove is that a lot of people who should know better are prejudiced against Jews. None of this is honest. Jews do not have all the money, and we are not solely responsible for Iran policy, which is, after all, an issue on which a good deal of Europe is united. Bibi Netanyahu does not have more power in Congress than Barack Obama does, and Juan Cole’s theory that neoconservatism, which houses views shared by many people in this country, is alive because many of the Fortune 400 are Jewish is nonsense which you turn into just another antisemitism trope.
You’re not being productive, Phil. You’re searching for justification for your own self-hatred and trying to pull everyone else down with you. Sorry, it’s not working.
You know you’re right when the opposition has to resort to the old “self-hating Jew” canard. Don’t you have anything better, hophmi?
Is Gideon Levy a self-hating Jew, too? He condemns the influence of Jewish billionaires. He names a number of them. link to haaretz.com
Maybe we should talk about “peace-hating Jews” instead.
hophmi,
It is you who is not being honest. It is you who brandishes the anti-semitic label as if it were gaffer tape that you can use to silence any discussion.
point
Jews, with money, are disproportionately involved with US politics, and use their dough to get what they want. As Americans they are entitled to do that. Your claim that discussing this is anti-semitism is bogus. This is the truth, and if something is true, it’s not anti-semitism, is it? Or have you just pulled a new definition out of a hat to suit you?
point
Israelis and their US sympathizers are absolutely responsible for Iranian foreign policy. Europe is not united on it. They think Israelis are warmongers for wanting this. The only people screeching for the US to get into WWIII with Iran are Israelis and their US sympathizers: rich right-wing Jews and Islamophobes, and Christian Zionists. Let me put it to you another way: if the Israelis and their Jewish American counterparts did not want a war with Iran, it wouldn’t happen. (But I’ll grant you this, if you want to see real anti-semitism in this country, go ahead, go on, bomb Iran.) In case you missed the news, here are a few of the hundred of articles detailing Israeli and extremist right-wing Jewish and Christian Zionist lust for war with Iran, and their efforts to get the US to destroy itself for Zion. There is no question as to who is behind it:
mrw – a thoughtful concise reply… for that you get silence.. why am i not surprised?
mrw – Europe and Iran
Europe may not be you united on this, but the Islamophobes are sure trying to get them on board. Just stumbled over this website, which gets ten thousands of hits daily, spreading anti-Muslim hatred under the header of being ‘pro-Israel’, ‘pro-American’ and “Politically Incorrect” (domain name). The bomb-Iran article is in German, but the video from Israel’s/Caroline Glick’s latma TV is in English, and about as sophisticated and ‘funny’ as thei post-Marmare release “We con the world”:
link to pi-news.net
They also report on an academic conference that reminded me of the recent one at Yale. This one, in Bavaria, dealt with “Israel in the Media”. I watched the two videos posted, in which several participants are being interviewed on their contributions to the meeting. Their message: The Palestinians cannot win the war against Israel by military means and are continuing the struggle via ‘Pallywood’ – productions, amplifying and faking victimhood in order to fuel anti-Israel protests and anti-Semitism in Europe. And yes, occupation necessarily produces ‘ugly pictures’, like children throwing rocks at Israeli tanks. So the Israelis are at a distinct advantage to counter the negative fallout. And so on. All very familiar.
The article insists that the P/I conflict is not essentially about territory, but about the ‘clash of civilizations’, and only supporting Israel’s fight against radical Islam will prevent ‘Eurabia’
link to pi-news.net
Another thoughtful post, Mr. Weiss. It’s a shame that Mr. “Ethnic cleansing is not currently neccesary” Witty’s comments will, at some point, sully this thread and detract readers from the substance of your post.
>> … and detract readers …
Correction: … and distract readers …
At least we can be sure this is the only article they’ll comment on today. The other one I’ve seen thus far falls neatly in the Zionist blind spot regarding the outright murder of civilians.
when the bill came, I had to walk off to the cash machine to get more money
Anti-Semites wouldn’t take a credit card, eh? Where’s Abe Foxman when you really need him?
I hope those men don’t get arrested.
Mr. Weiss made a point of protecting their identities, so.
it’s true that i changed a key detail or two to protect the man from possible reprisal
Phil, have you had time to read Levy’s latest? It directly confronts the issue of Jewish billionaires and their corrupting effect on Israeli politics.
link to haaretz.com
your words here and the solution presented in your final paragraph about the most productive work you can do is essential, on the mark and exceedingly brave.
Time to bring back the word ‘noble’.
Most people living in Jordan are of Palestinian extraction. There are also many Iraqi exiles there. These people are probably not very happy with the king. The native Jordanians are probably more supportive of him.
So how small a minority in their own country does that make “native Jordanians”?
I am not sure. I think Jordanians are 20-50% of the population
Funny how the Jordanians can be a minority and not ethnically cleanse Palestinians. I guess Israelis have a lot to learn from Jordan about modern civilization.
Levy’s article is silly. There are rich men involved in the politics of virtually every developed country, especially this one. And it’s hypocritical, since the human rights organizations he so often touts are virtually all foreign-funded, some with sizable infusions from George Soros.
Soros is Jewish, so what’s your point?
Soros is the default whipping boy for the right wing. His name is meant to evoke a frisson of horror.
So according to hophmi it’s OK to say that rich men are corrupting influences on government, but it’s antisemitic to point out when they are Jewish and corrupting Israel and the US, for Israel’s sake.
Phil,
You used the word ‘sophisticated’ twice to describe the Jordanian men, and you used it a touch surprised and with an impressed air.
I found that patronizing and annoying. I know you didn’t intend it this way but it sure reminded me of when Biden called Obama “articulate” and “clean” during the presidential election.
taxi,
They spoke English well, they were sophisticated men.
in a nutshell this describes an important distinction between americans and other societies. most americans (including myself) think speaking a foreign language equates sophistication. my guess is that the only place in the world it’s perfectly normal for exceedingly educated individuals to not speak a foreign language is here whereas that isn’t the case in europe at all where speaking a foreign language is completely average. i’m not saying your instincts are incorrect, i’m just mentioning the context in which i read it. i think this was one of the things that shocked me the most about palestinians when visiting gaza, how many of them spoke english. i can’t help it but i know that one feature contributed to the elevation of my impression of gazan society as a whole immensely. in turn i repeatedly felt less adequate there. several times over the course of my time there i wondered ‘why me?’ the counterparts to these remarkable people should have been their equals in my society. of course gaza is not the same as jordan but my point is that as americans we equate sophistication w/education and a degree of wealth. it was shocking for me being in the midst of so many educated sophisticated poor people living in these conditions.
another thing i didn’t know til i started traveling internationally was how much foreigners knew about the US verses us (me) about them. here we primarily hear about the US. i couldn’t believe in australia and and nepal they were watching cnn, and a more interesting international cnn at that. in general people outside the US have a much more well rounded concept of how america and american interests impact the world than americans who basically know nothing about the global reality in comparison. it’s a more sophisticated viewpoint and informs his other usage of the term in this article. it’s a mark of american naivete that permeates our society.
>> it’s a mark of american naivete that permeates our society.
America is a “beacon unto the nations” (where have I heard that before?!), so it only makes sense that:
i) the rest of the worlds hungers and thirsts to know and consume as much as it can about America and culture; and
ii) Americans don’t need to know a damned thing about the furriners in the lesser nations that lie outside of her borders.
It also explains why when other nations don’t deliver on the first point – even if it is most courteously presented to them at the business end of occupation and slaughter – they can only be described as savages or “freedom-haters” because, really, who doesn’t want to be like Amurrika?
they can only be described as savages or “freedom-haters” because, really, who doesn’t want to be like Amurrika?
don’t forget ‘prone to conspiracy theories’. i’ll never forget the first time someone on a blog told me ‘the arab world’ (or something like that) all believed in conspiracy theories as if it was some genetic trait and they were just inherently prone to paranoia. riiight.
Everything you say is the beautiful, humble and honest truth, annie.
Well, Taxi, I guess we’re doing a two-step again. ;-) Using the word ‘sophisticated’ gave me a visual lock on the men, and their discourse. I know exactly what kind of worldly, cultured people he was talking to, many of whom I’ve met on my travels who blew me away with their erudition and knowledge of history and consequence.
Most restauranteurs in this country will backslap you and talk about sports, and the ones I meet don’t have a clue about life outside the US, nor do they care to.
I don’t mind in the least to be dancing with you, buddy :-)
“I felt he was saying that Obama was propping the king up to support Israel and that only when American support for Israel changed would the corrupt dictatorships of the Arab world begin to loosen.”
Do you personally believe that? Support for Arab dictatorship predates support for Israel. Countries like the US support dictatorships because they believe dictatorships offer more stability and greater friendship than the alternatives. Not that Jordan is really such a dictatorship; obviously the people feel free enough to criticize the king. And for anyone who has ever listened to the king, he is without a doubt one of the brighter lights in the region.
““No one can make a peace. God can’t make a peace. Besides, there are too many people making money off the situation.””
Like who? Do you really think this is about money?
““When someone takes your land and your house, and make you flee, and they rape your mother and kill your sister, do you think that you can forget that? No. No one can forget that.””
Assuming this is what happened, can you not understand why Jews have similar feelings?
“The ethnic cleansing is remembered and resented across the Arab world.”
So is the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab lands in the years that followed.
But the resentment is gone, because the Jews had a place to go. This is not to mention the outright murder of the Jews during the Holocaust, which is part of this situation, and creates an unjust outcome should your so-called “right-of-return” come to pass, an unjust outcome that you refuse to deal with.
“The conversation reminds me of why I am for the right of return. Because it is way overdue, because as Gideon Levy says in his column that Adam quoted here the other day, it is the soul of the issue, because it is right, because it is about respect, because the U.N. demanded it again and again and again, and because it would heal more than anything else would heal. ”
It’s not international law. It is not something the UN has demanded; the UN position is the two-state solution as articulated in UNSC resolution 242. It’s not respectful to the Jews who built Israel as a Jewish refuge. It’s not the soul of the issue, which is as much about Arab intransigence and the failure of the Arab to provide for the Palestinians. It’s not right, because it would result in the ethnic cleansing of Jews and a bloodbath.
“Denying Jewish power is an intellectual dodge–yes, one widely undertaken to prevent another Holocaust. Well sorry it’s not helping. ”
It is not an intellectual dodge. It is the truth; the extent of “Jewish power” (the very idea is so laden with hatred that it simply should not be repeated) is completely exaggerated around the world. The motivations are different. In Asia, people overstate it out of admiration. In the Arab world, people overstate it out of jealousy and hatred. But a stereotype is a stereotype whether it is positive or negative, and just as we don’t accept it for others, we should not accept it for the Jews. If you keep using terms like “Jewish power”, you shouldn’t be suprised when others use terms like “antisemitism” to describe your views.
“Zionism created this thoughtful man’s rage. Which, yes, is shared across the Arab world. This grievance must be answered. ”
Because, before Zionism, the region was a paradise of peace and brotherhood. C’mon Phil, stop with the simplistic nonsense. There’s a lot more behind this man’s rage than Zionism, and in all honesty, it doesn’t sound like rage to me. Sophisticated people don’t go in for emotions like rage. Haters do. Zionism created your rage, not his. And there’s no reason to answer his grievance. How is he aggrieved? What has HE done to change his society?
It’s not respectful to the Jews who built Israel as a Jewish refuge.
Indeed, the founders of Israel would roll in their graves to know that their state was run over by savage Arabs.
It’s not the soul of the issue,
Of course not. It’s an issue of democracy after all, and how else would Israel remain democratic without denying any rights to half the population under its control?
which is as much about Arab intransigence and the failure of the Arab to provide for the Palestinians.
Now you get it. If only the Arabs had accepted Israel and its “right to exist,” Israel would never have ethnically cleansed the Negev, the Jordan valley or East Jerusalem neighbourhoods.
And who can forget the failure of the Arabs to “provide for the Palestinians?” After all, the Palestinians could go anywhere once they were liberated in the Nakba. The failure of the Arab states to take them in is the “soul of the issue,” in fact. What does Israel have to do with the refugee crisis at all? It is only innocently building colonies in its God-given territories, which only happen to extend all of Israel and Palestine, and according to some Zionists you talk to, even more than that.
It’s not right, because it would result in the ethnic cleansing of Jews and a bloodbath.
As opposed to Zionism, which resulted in neither of that. But strange enough Zionism is right when it results in ethnic cleansing of Arabs and a bloodbath, because we all can make an exception for the eternal victims. “Remember the Holocaust!”
“Indeed, the founders of Israel would roll in their graves to know that their state was run over by savage Arabs.”
They would roll in their graves if Jews were once again relegated to depending on gentiles for security given past history. It has little to do with the Arabs.
“Of course not. It’s an issue of democracy after all, and how else would Israel remain democratic without denying any rights to half the population under its control?”
Right of return is not an issue of democracy. It is an issue of practicality and security and justice. It’s not practical, not safe, and not just.
“Now you get it. If only the Arabs had accepted Israel and its “right to exist,” Israel would never have ethnically cleansed the Negev, the Jordan valley or East Jerusalem neighbourhoods. ”
Oh please, these are your examples? The Negev is a desert. There are plenty of Bedouins living peacefully there. Israel has zoning laws, and they enforce them. As far as East Jerusalem goes, the original sin belongs to the Arabs, who ethnically cleansed the Jewish neighborhoods in 1948.
What do you think would have happened if the Arabs had won in 1948? Do you think they would have allowed the Jews to stay in their homes?
“What does Israel have to do with the refugee crisis at all?”
About as much as the Czechs have to do with the German refugee crisis in the Sudetenland.
“As opposed to Zionism, which resulted in neither of that.”
How did Zionism cause the ethnic cleansing of Jews?
“But strange enough Zionism is right when it results in ethnic cleansing of Arabs and a bloodbath, because we all can make an exception for the eternal victims.”
That’s past history, and it has hardly been a bloodbath. So are you saying that you’re OK with another bloodbath?
“They would roll in their graves if Jews were once again relegated to depending on gentiles for security given past history.”
Oy, such a tough Jew! Hophmi can hold his own against his 340 Gentiles (world population divided by aprox number of Jews) why can’t I? Maybe he has a golem? I wonder if I can find one on Craigslist.
>> They would roll in their graves if Jews were once again relegated to depending on gentiles for security given past history.
I wonder if accepting billions of dollars annually from the U.S. government counts as “depending on gentiles for security”… ;-)
They would roll in their graves if Jews were once again relegated to depending on gentiles for security
unbelievable! as if israel is an island sans the global superpower propping it up! it’s not just the billions of dollars annually from the U.S. government it’s the damn wars we fight at their bequest. it’s the protection we afford them to go on their rampages.
you’ve got a lot of nerve pretending israel isn’t manipulating US policy at a detriment to what’s best for our national interest. as bib so aptly put it ‘american can be easily swayed’. get your hand out of the cookie jar and then try telling us israel’s paving their own way in this world. pff!
Israel has zoning laws How convenient!
“Right of return is not an issue of democracy. It is an issue of practicality and security and justice. It’s not practical, not safe, and not just.”
On teh other hand, ethnic cleasing and mass murder was just.
To Homphi, Palestinians have no need for security and justice in their lives.
“The Negev is a desert. There are plenty of Bedouins living peacefully there. ”
More and more of them how without homes, thanks to Israel demolitions, whci gos to show that being peace abiding is no guarnatee against Israeli marbarism.
“As far as East Jerusalem goes, the original sin belongs to the Arabs, who ethnically cleansed the Jewish neighborhoods in 1948.”
Original sin? Was that before or after Israel hnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians from Palestine?
“What do you think would have happened if the Arabs had won in 1948? Do you think they would have allowed the Jews to stay in their homes?”
Probably, seeing as Jews only owned 7% of the land.
“How did Zionism cause the ethnic cleansing of Jews?”
It didn’t becasue there was no ethnic cleansing of Jews.
“So are you saying that you’re OK with another bloodbath?”
Are you saying that you’re OK with the previous one?
The Negev is a desert. There are plenty of Bedouins living peacefully there. Israel has zoning laws, and they enforce them.
Zoned for purposes of Judaization. Living “peacefully” in the towns they were forced into, or under constant threat and pressure to move there.
Classic. When there is little or no counter-violence on the part of the dispossessed, everything is “peaceful”. When there is counter-violence, “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”. In the meantime, the Israel Lands Authority, the Bedouin Advancement Authority and the “Green Patrol” continue to secure as much land as they can for the Jewish people.
It’s not respectful to the Jews who built Israel as a Jewish refuge.
The Jews who drove the native Palestinians from their homes deserve no respect, only opprobrium. As do those who defend them.
Do you really think this is about money?
Absolutely. Defense contracts.
Real estate scams.
“Support for Arab dictatorship predates support for Israel. Countries like the US support dictatorships because they believe dictatorships offer more stability and greater friendship than the alternatives. ”
Yes, support for Arab dictatorships does predate support for Israel, but support for Israel is based on the same premise as support for Arab dictatorships.
“Like who? Do you really think this is about money?”
Arms dealers and developers building settlements.
“Assuming this is what happened, can you not understand why Jews have similar feelings?”
If Jews had similar feelings, perhaps they’d stop doing it.
“So is the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab lands in the years that followed.”
Nom, because it never happened. There was no resentment, because it never happened. The Mizrahi Jews actaully obeject to being claled refugees.
”It’s not international law. It is not something the UN has demanded”
It is both. The Negenvan Conventions were created to deem such actions as a violation of international law.
“In the Arab world, people overstate it out of jealousy and hatred.”
No it’s not overstated, it is demonstrated every day through the Kafkaesque doible standards and hypocrisy imposed on Arab states by the West, while Israel is rewarded for bad behaviour.
How else does one explain how Israel demands free weapons from the US, and then gets to veto a sale to Saudi Arabia of F15′s, which Saudi Arabia were actually paying for?
“Because, before Zionism, the region was a paradise of peace and brotherhood.”
What reagion go the world was a paradise of peace and brotherhood at the time? Did you miss the fact that the world have justexperiences 2 World Wars and a Great Depression?
You Zionists seriosly need to update your talking points. They are not only stale, they are rotting.
“That is the most productive work I can do.”
And when you prove that Jews can have their challah and eat it, too, you will get a Nobel Peace Prize and an award from the American Culinary Institute.
thanks for this report Phillip. In that tape that you provided a way back of Mearsheimer with an Al Jazeera reporter and two others addressing the new talks. Mearsheimer put forth a different face on this. That these new talks would be used as many of the past talks have been used to hide behind while a Greater Israel continues to expand while Netanyahu pretends to be engaged. And that is all the near future holds is a Greater Israel with bantustans becoming even more apparent.
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Was in Boulder this summer (lived in Colo for years back almost every summer) and went to hear Andrew Bacevich at the Boulder Book Store (great book store) and got in a question about Iran and Israel at 45:18
link to booktv.org
Worth listening to whole talk and question and answer session.
Years ago Queen Naor of Jordan was on Washington Journal and I got in a question about the I/P conflict. A question that I have asked many international students here at Ohio University, leaders from around the world and policy analyst. “If the U.S. began dealing with the I/P conflict in a fair and balanced way how quickly would the hatred towards the U.S. change? Queen Naor answered “the next day” Which is the answer of most individuals who know the situation in the middle east well.
Aw, Kathleen, no camera on you. THE key questions you asked. Basically,
what do you think of the push for War on Iran by the same people who pushed for war on Iraq, and ditto re continued US support for Israel right or wrong (especially when it comes to the Palestinians)? The Iran Question and the Israel Question. He told you “they’re not unrelated.”
Talk about understatement! But he’s wry and dry; sure laid out how our elites have ignored the gift of awareness Ike gave us all by way of his farewell address regarding the military-industrial complex. (Gotta reread that). He said Iran is NOT an existential threat to the USA. And that if he was Iranian, he’d be scared not to get nukes, given the regional history, including the CIA-SHAH, etc. OTH, he said if he was an Israeli Jew, given the Holocaust, etc he might think Iran is an existential threat to Israel. He said there was a growing awareness here that the US and Israel’s interests are diverging. Raising the question, what if Israel felt abandoned? What would Israel do? Dangerous situation. OTH, he also pointed out that forever rubbing stamping Israel right or wrong “allows dangerous situation to fester.”
He said the American people will do nothing to control this unless
conscription is implemented or taxes raised/social security cut. Only a very small percentage of Americans have their literal life on the line as soldiers and the war on terror (Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran) is/will be paid for by our children and their children. We roll along on what amounts to a Hessian army paid for by credit, borrowing from China.
The top brass go along with the program, as they did during Vietnam until GIs started fragging in the field. But a few cracks there have surfaced, the PFC Wikileaks, and the bigger crack, the General Mac recently fired by Obama.
I think once Iran gets hit, we will see a major change, and nearly over night. Nobody asked him to speculate about that.
Here’s a few of Ike’s warning gems in his farewell of 1961–imagine what he would think now:
“This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central, it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”
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“Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society’s future, we – you and I, and our government – must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without asking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.
Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.”
Accidentally got in front of the camera earlier as I was getting into line for a question. Totally forgot that C-span was there. Oops
Bacevich’s answer was careful, clear and I thought to the point.
although I was sorry that I was thrown off by his “do you have an opinion” remark. Have asked enough questions of big shots that should have been ready for that. And answered “yes I do. And I think hundreds of thousands dead, injured and millions displaced based on a pack of lies should give all of us attitudes” Damn it.
Next time. I was able to ask Bacevich some questions when he was on Diane Rehm several years ago. Was more on top of it.
I really like when he says “I am an American Catholic” and then throws the Catholic off to the side and says that he does not think that Iran does not pose an existential threat to America. Then goes on to say if he were the National security adviser of Iran he would think it would be wise to acquire a nuclear weapon as a deterrence to all of the threats. Because you get treated differently.
Then Bacevich goes onto say if he were an Israeli Jew he would have another view.
Over at Democracy Now updates
“Israeli Shelling Kills Three Palestinians in Gaza
Three Palestinians died Sunday when the Israeli military fired shells into the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun. The dead included a ninety-one-year-old man and his teenage grandson. Israel said it began the shelling in response to rockets that were fired across the border from Gaza. Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Sunday the Israeli moratorium on new settlements in the West Bank will not stay in place after it expires later this month. A new report from the Israeli group Peace Now has found that 13,000 Jewish settlement housing units in the West Bank are ready for construction once the building moratorium ends on September 26th and at least 2,000 are ready for immediate construction.”
Heard Obama the other day say that the building moratorium (as if there was really ever a moratorium) should be extended. Clearly Netanyahu does not give a rats ass about what Obama says
there has never been a freeze
>> there has never been a freeze
The aggressive, on-going land theft, colonisation, expansion oppression is what is paradoxically known as “ensuring Israel’s security”.
King Abdullah is not known as King PlayStation among many Arabs for nothing…
To blame the governance throughout the millions of square miles of the Arab world on Zionism is narrow minded. Even if it is the fault of the United States inheriting the colonial legacy of the French and the British, oil has nothing to do with propping up the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia? Of course it does. The Arab country that rates highest in terms of democracy is Lebanon and what a fine mess that country is. Certainly its proximity to Israel, the Palestinian refugees add to the mess that it is, but do you want your country controlled by Assad and Hezbollah? The failure of the Arab world to produce even one example of decent governance cannot be only blamed on Zionism or even on colonialism for that matter. In 40 to 140 years from now when there are Arab democracies we will see what the causes of their late development were. I don’t know enough to pinpoint the cause, but this “Zionism and the money of the Jews is the root of all our problems” is juvenile and dangerous and stupid.
Right, WJ. While you’re off beating up that straw man, the rest of us will be having a serious, informed discussion about the Middle East.