Unbelievable.This fills my eyes with tears. Jews are coming home. Two years after Gaza, Goldstone is resonating and the blood can't be washed away. A beautiful moment in the moral arc of the universe. Gaza can't be forgotten. Israel will be changed by this, so will the lobby... Remember that the Defense Minister is the charming man who hoodooed Bill Clinton and whose knee Barack Obama sat at, months after the Gaza massacre, in which 300-400 children were killed and hundreds more maimed and every child in the strip terrorized/traumatized. From Ynet:
Defense Minister Ehud Barak spoke before an audience Tuesday as a guest speaker in an Iran seminar held in the Tel Aviv University. Barak discussed the Islamic Republic's nuclear program and the Middle East's political-security state but was repeatedly interrupted by protestors who waved pictures of Palestinian victims. The protestors shouted "You murder children in Gaza" and called Barak "a phony liar."
The audience was mainly comprised of senior officials in the security establishment as well as Israeli and foreign academics. The protestors were quickly removed from the hall by Barak's and the university's security guards. The minister later said he did not see fit to respond to the claims.
Update: Please note Tom Pessah's comment below that the protesters included at least one Palestinian Israeli.
Whoah!
Little earthquakes – but earthquakes.
Oops … first Netanyahu is rudely interrupted in New Orleans; now Barak is heckled on home turf in Tel Aviv.
Britain’s Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne thinks it’s high time these ill-treated Jews got freedom of speech. Excerpt from Osborne’s speech to the Board of Deputies of British Jews 250th anniversary dinner:
link to hm-treasury.gov.uk
Yay — soon Tzipi Livni can shop at Harrod’s unmolested! Finally the unjust shackles of oppression are being removed from these long-suffering Israeli officials.
Errrr … would it be impolite to wonder how much the Board of Deputies paid Osborne for his obsequious pandering?
Gee, the head of the British treasury speaks at a Jewish social club about how war criminals — well Jewish war criminals — need to be protected, because otherwise if laws that were enacted in response to the Holocaust were actually enforced, well…. that would be anti-Semitism!
You can’t make this stuff up.
Does Harrod’s sell the white phosphorous Livni is shopping for? They might even sell internationally “acceptable” tear gas cannisters to shoot at Palestinians.
See? And someone (I can’t remember which troll) insisted to me that I never recognized that there were men and women of good moral standing in Israel. Well here they are!
Check out this rapier-witted skit from the Israeli comedy show Eretz Nehederet:
link to youtube.com
Saw it posted on Gilad Atzmon’s site …
What a hypocrite! Isn’t this the same country which recently kept Julian Assange in solitary confinement for a week? Oh, I remember now. It was because it was because he had a leaky condom, it had nothing to do with Wikileaks.
RE: “he had a leaky condom, it had nothing to do with Wikileaks.” – AnaSanchez
MY BANALITY: “Willy leaks”, perhaps?
willy – link to urbandictionary.com
Gaza must not be forsaken, ever again. I’m thankful for small blessings.
Wow. This is really something. The dam has another chink.
Power in Israel is based on acceptance. The more people stand up to Barak and the rest of the war mongers the harder it is going to be for them to get their message across to Yossi and Yossette Israeli.
This sort of action would have been unthinkable 10 years ago.
“Israel will be changed by this, so will the lobby… ”
I doubt it. Far more massive protests and cries of murder occurred in Tel Aviv (tens of thousands demonstrated) just after Israels 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the Sabra & Shatila massacres. Although the demonstrations forced the resignation of DM Ariel Sharon, everything was back to business as usual weeks later. The lobby was not only unscathed but emerged even more powerful in the years and decades that followed. And Sharon came back as PM. I wish I could share your enthusiasm Phil, but doubt this amounts to much.
I think this time is different for Israel. The country is more rabid than it was in 1982. It made a fatal mistake under pressure of recognising the Palestinians in 1991. The world is waiting for that Palestinian State. And Israel can’t do it.
Plus YESHA is 300,000 more people than in 1982. The cancer has spread all over the West Bank.
And the split between tribal and racist Israeli Jews and liberal Yank Jews is only going to get wider.
Israel has three ignored issues any one of which has the potential to blow up sooner rather than later. The Zionist tendency is to sweep them under the carpet and hope for the best . Or else apply a “once and for all dose of violence” when it relates to non Jews. .
- Orthodox social welfare dependency
- YESHA
- The Palestinians and representation in Erez Israel
The split between tribal and racist Israeli Jews and liberal Yank Jews is only going to get wider.
This could serve as the topic sentence for a 500-page book. It will be one of the major geopolitical themes of the century.
Who would have thought the internet would blow up decades of social conditioning in Hillels and Hebrew day schools?
here’s what worries me about the American part of the equation — David Frum is an organizer and spokesperson for “Nolabels.” It looks innocuous — even looks like a good idea: “break the gridlock and partisan bickering of Republican vs. Democrat. Let’s all come together, find common ground . . .”
When Frum was on C Span to talk about his new project, he emphasized that the 1000 participants in the kick-off event in NYC “paid their own way.” He repeated that the project was very low-budget –”we spent only a million dollars the first year of organizing.”
BUT, one of the Board members and angels of Nolabels is the co-inventor of Facebook.
Democrats and Republicans from every sphere are included in the organization.
The one-year goal of the group is to set up offices to influence voters in each and every of the 435 voting districts in the US.
Frum was irenic in the extreme in urging that America’s political parties come together. He was irenic until the topic of Iran was raised; then it was no holds barred.
Here’s what I think NoLabels is all about: the zionists that Frum represents have control of the Republican and Democratic parties. BUT Ron Paul is gaining in influence, and has some backing from Tea Party. Zionist operatives were quick to set up Dick Army to fragment the Tea Party, but some uncertainty must linger in the zionist limbic system about the effectiveness of that smash action. NoLabels will reach into every US election district and squash any move toward independence from corporate/two-party control of the electorate. Because that might erode support for Israel.
Hate to rain on your parade, Phil; yes, that’s a good thing, that protest of Barak. But things are going to get worse, at least in the US, before they get better. Zionists are too deeply entrenched in US money and power sources to go quietly into that good night.
very interesting. i had never heard of this no labels group. they fear (rightly so) there is discontent in both parties and that is something they may try but cannot control.
Israel is beginning to tear itself apart internally anyway . The centre won’t hold. Israel is a fragile creature that Bibi and co have used as a test tube for their neoliberal experiments. There is only so much rampant inequality and militarism that Israel will bear.
link to haaretz.com
“Since the reality is hard to digest, circles that are considered liberal keep searching for pills to sweeten it. There is, for instance, the belief that Lieberman is the root of the evil, and that if he were to vanish, so too would the problem. That is an unfounded theory. Lieberman might be the first to accumulate power with the help of slogans that were once taboo, but he would not have succeeded in doing so were circumstances not ripe.
Right-wing governments have continually weakened Israel’s social fabric and civil structure. The collapse of the public system, which was especially manifest during the Second Lebanon War and the Carmel fire but also finds expression every day in education, health and welfare (all spheres that are flourishing in the settlements and eroding within the Green Line ) has created a chaotic vacuum that is readily manipulated.
Meanwhile, politicians cultivate the impasse in peace talks, along with the undisturbed perpetuation of the occupation, and dangerous rumors of impending economic prosperity. Good times are to come! Look at how much natural gas there is in the sea! Who needs peace? Who cares about what the world thinks?”
“… Good times are to come! Look at how much natural gas there is in the sea! ” (Seafoid)
Seafoid, good times won’t come from the natural gas because of Israel’s claim on the east Med gas of about 100 trillion cu. ft. is for the totality for the field that stretches from Gaza, up Israel’s cost, up Lebanon’s and up Syria’s. It has already served notice on Lebanon that any offshore mining by Lebanon shall be construed as theft of Israeli natural ressources. Of course, this claim would be backed up the US because the natural gas exports to Europe by Israel would put a dent on Europe reliance on Russia. I think the gas off the coast of Gaza is surely the main reason behind the blockade and why no ship is allowed to get anywhere near it under any circumstance. While Cast Lead was being readied in November 2008, Olmert was negotiating with British Gas for Gaza’s gas. War will surely come to the area and the 6th fleet would surely be part of it.
That’s very interesting, Walid. There must be a reason behind the EU stance.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results Amar. I say this in reference to constantly protesting, and even with smaller groups because the resistance has almost disappeared (shrunk) in Israel. The point is that people are just not serious about this stopping, they want life to go on as usual, with their personal peace and comfort ultimately undisturbed, pleading for change. Both Israel and the USA love the fact that this movement is not more radical, and very very easy to handle, they can live with the “non-violent” movement and recuperate it repeatedly. They serve as a buffer for the status quo, as if nothing serious is transpiring while things get worse and worse – perhaps I am insane for posting the same point over and over again, because essentially people do not care and subconsciously want their pretty little neat lives to continue undisturbed
THE REPETITION OF THE STATUS QUO
A stunner? The heckling of Israeli politicians is quite common. This is a meaningless incident. Also it carries absolutely no risk to the hecklers. Let’s see Taxi heckle a Saudi prince. That would be a “stunner”.
What matters is only one thing, how much power these hecklers have as a political force, and the answer is zero. Israeli actions will be determined by the results of elections in Israel, no other way. Let the hecklers form a political party and woo the public or have influence in the current parties. Otherwise, in Israel they are not news anymore.
There is only one peaceful solution. A negotiated 2 state solution.
Ooh! Ooh! Let’s see Smurfette heckle the Cobra Commander! If you’re going to make a straw man, eee, might as well make as outlandishly garish as possible. It might actually be distracting then.
To be fair, I think what people are stunned about is seeing a protest like this in Israel and having nobody end up with a tear gas canister lodged in their eye socket.
You missed your 2 state solution train in 1967, eee
Who is going to evacuate the Jews from Hevron in your shangri la?
Seafoid,
It is either going to be a peaceful two state solution arrived at by negotiation or a civil war between the settlers in Kiryat Araba and the Palestinians in Hebron. That is what your proposals will lead to, bloodshed. A repeat of 47-48 with most likely the Palestinians suffering the most.
No it isn’t. The Jews either leave Hevron or it’s equal rights for everyone in the binational state. Violence doesn’t achieve anything for Israeli Jews. Didn’t you know that?
a civil war between the settlers in Kiryat Araba and the Palestinians in Hebron
iow, you assume if a negotiation is peaceful the implementation would be too? you don’t envision a situation in which the goi makes an agreement and the settlers won’t budge thereby creating a situation of idf vs settlers?
A repeat of 47-48
where the world stands by and doesn’t see or act and then the zionists make a myth about what happened and everything is hunky dory.
fat chance of that.
so eee, i guess i am not understanding who’s going to confront these religious nationalist fanatical settlers. your scenario implies if/when a negotiation is agreed upon then the problem is fixed. to say the goi is unwilling to confront the settlers seems completely missing the crux of the problem…the goi supports them. the goi is heavily radically right wing. who exactly in this radically rightwing government do you envision negotiating for a sovereign palestinian state?
i’m just not getting how this will happen, at all.
Annie,
It is very simple. If there is a negotiated two state solution supported by the majority of Israelis, it will be implemented. Part of the solution may be to leave the settlers in Kiryat Araba as Palestinian citizens, who knows?
And if there is no negotiated solution, and say Israel unilaterally moves to the separation fence, makes that the border by annexation and gives the Arabs in its borders citizenship, in the Palestinian side there will be civil war. And my bet is on the guys from Kiryat Arba, but in any case there will be plenty of bloodshed and I do not want to see this happen.
And who is going to fight beside the Palestinians? You? How are you going to stop a repeat of 47-48, send an international force? The UN? Nobody will interfere. That is why there is no alternative to a negotiated 2 state solution. What you are proposing is just a recipe for another Nakba.
Annie,
In addition, the EU is saying exactly what I am saying:
link to haaretz.com
Because they understand that any other solution will lead to bloodshed.
How are you going to stop a repeat of 47-48, send an international force? The UN? Nobody will interfere.
really? is that why israel keeps building? because they can do whatever they want? if nobody will interfere while they ethnically cleanse the rest of palestine what’s to motivate israel from coming to any sort of agreement except perhaps an agreement where palestinians agree to be living in a permanent apartheid state?
huh?
And when the two state solution arrived at by negotiation leads to bloodshed when the IDF tries to evict the settlers, then what?
Oh, but of course there will be no eviction of settlers in the sort of negotiations eee has in mind.
Annie,
Israel keeps building in Jerusalem because there is a broad agreement in Israel that this will be part of Israel in the future (there is certainly American recognition for this).
As for other areas, this is a policy that has no broad consensus but is the result of political expediency on behalf of many governments. In many cases it is really natural growth.
But why Israel keeps building does not matter, the fact is that it does and the way for the Palestinians to stop this is to reach a negotiated agreement. They have no other choice. Hoping that the “international community” will come to their rescue is just foolish. Hoping for a one state is ultra foolish. If worst comes to worst from the Israeli perspective, Israel will do what I described in the comment above and then the Palestinians will be deep in it.
obviously ‘no alternative’ is a colloquialism. of course there are alternatives to a negotiated settlement, like ethnic cleansing is an alternative. here’s another alternative that might sound familar to you
what you are really saying eee is that in your opinion the only opportunity for a successful outcome is for the two sides to peacefully negotiate. right now we are at a stalemate, one where israel is continuing to expand, which has implications we probably disagree on.
so, while israel expands (pressure) we apply bds (pressure). the longer both sides hold out the more likely one state becomes a reality.
you’ve got your opinion, i’ve got mine.
ciao
Negotiations according to eee:
Palestine: E Jerusalem wil be our capital.
Israel: No. That’s non-negotiable. We’ve already taken it and built settlements all over it.
Now, explain how this leads to peace?
Israel keeps building in Jerusalem because there is a broad agreement in Israel that this will be part of Israel in the future (there is certainly American recognition for this).
what on earth do mean by (there is certainly American recognition for this)?
everyone and their sister recognizes israel wants all of jerusalem, but you didn’t say there is certainly American recognition of this did you? let’s get one thing straight, the only country in the world who recognizes all of jerusalem as part of israel..is israel (the fact there are american uber zionists who go along w/this fantasy is beside the point). if the US recognized this we’d have our embassy there..and we don’t. there will never be a negotiation in which palestine gives up all of jerusalem, it will not happen period finito forgedaboudit never.
so you can go ahead and spin your merry tail (or tale, take your pick) about some future negotiated settlement where palestinians hand over their home and their ror in one fell swoop. not happening. you’re in la la land.
>> But why Israel keeps building does not matter …
No common sense, no tact and, clearly, no desire to negotiate in good faith. Just thuggery and Zio-supremacist disdain for ‘the Other’. You continue to define and devalue yourself with each and every post.
Annie,
Fair enough, people can disagree about future outcomes. But since I gave you a clear example how Israel can unilaterally avoid the one state solution, the one state is not even a possibility at all. The only two options are a negotiated solution or a civil war in Palestine.
Whenever someone says “no alternative” or “no choice” you know they are a liar.
In eee’s case, these phrases mean, “it might inconvenience some Jews.”
False. Even after Obama gave his speech to AIPAC declaring this idea, he then retracted it.
It gas never been US policy. The only US policy WRT Jerusalem is the Clinton parameters, which Israel has violated if course.
Have you ever been diagnosedas a sociopath eee?
Annie,
Obviously, if the Palestinians insist on the right or return there will be no agreement.
As for who is in la-la land, let’s look at the history of the conflict:
1) In 47-48 who estimated the situation correctly?
2) In 67?
3) The second intifada?
4) The Gaza conflict?
But have it your way. Let’s keep waiting. The Palestinians have never been more divided anyway and there is no chance of an agreement.
eee, there is no chance of an agreement.
coupled with your idea the only solution is a negotiated 2 states what does this spell out for us?
frankly it reminds me of my statement, if israel wanted 2 state we would have 2 states by now.
so, if there is no chance of an agreement what remains is one government w/2 sets of rules, ie an apartheid state. and i predict someday that one state will be liberated.
Why are you listing the dates that Israel committed massacres?
The day that Israel locked the gates against the Palestinian exiles, its fate was sealed and the slow collapse began.
Annie,
What does “liberated” mean? Controlled by Hamas or controlled by Fatah or perhaps the settlers or the “racist” Israelis? Seriously, what does that mean?
And who is going to fight beside the Jews? How are you going to save them from the gas chambers? Nobody will interfere. After all, who remembers the Armenians?
It apparently doesn’t disturb eee when he sounds exactly like A Hitler.
So because Israel is going to keep on illegally steal land they should just cave. do you have any morality at all in regards to Israel and palestine?
liberated means
Yes, let’s do that.
Did the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto estimate the situation correctly during he uprising?
Nasser didn’t have a say. He was attacked.
As General Chaim Herzog, a founding father of Israel’s Directorate of Military Intelligence said:
“If Nasser had not been stupid enough to give us a pretext to go to war, we would have created one within a year or 18 months.”
Yes, that played into Israel’s hands, though Netenyahu has bragged about derailing oslo.
Israel broke a 4 months ceasefire. The Palestinians were fish in a barrel. What were their options eee?
Liar! Wasn’t it just yesterday you said that what happened to the Palestinians was just fine because it was a little bad that had to happen for the greater good?
But now you are for “negotiated 2 state solution”
Epist off, won’t you.
Why o why o eee would I wanna heckle a Saudi prince now? I don’t question their ‘links’ to their land – they’re not occupying another people on another continent (like the ashkenazim are occupying the mideast) – so what gives? Or you just wanna sling mud for the puerile sake of it? Parrot that old swindle-joke about a “negotiated” solution – yeah well turns out your slogan “A negotiated 2 state solution” is a forty something old swindle that the whole world is now sick of. Turns out to be just empty words. Souless. Knowadamean?
Fact is, both the USA and israel are in decline – israel super much faster though.
And heck NO we won’t be dragged down with it for too long.
Listen to this and learn eee: Zionism will always be outnumbered in the mideast (thank eff!) – spin as you may, it’s only a question of time before the whole sick charade is over.
Even if you make peace with the Arabs, you will HAVE TO BE ABSORBED INTO ITS ARABNESS eventually. You can’t forever have a european fortress in the thick of an arab jungle – THAT status quo is NOT sustainable. It’s just universal law – don’t take it personally.
Join them, become them/like them, or perish.
If any of your elders were wise enough, they’d be thinking THAT far into the future.
Taxi,
I thought maybe being of Saudi origin (perhaps I am wrong about this) you may want to question the fact that there is an absolutist monarchy there instead of a liberal democracy. But I guess not.
Of course we will always be outnumbered in the middle east, in fact, we will be outnumbered wherever we are. The Jews were outnumbered and downtrodden for centuries and maintained their unique identity. And Israel’s existence makes maintaining our identity even simpler.
Why would we want to become like the Arabs:
link to nytimes.com
No thank you, we will take our chances which look brighter everyday.
If you think Israel’s future looks brighter, you haven’t seen the reports form the educational sector. Tell me, eee, who’s going to kill the Arabs for you when all the Jews are locked up in yeshivas?
You’re already eating hummus, you’re already on the road to Arabization.
What on earth gave you the idea that I’m saudi?! You may as well say I’m from Venus as they’re both equally alien to me.
And yeah zionists WILL ALWAYS be outnumbered because their ideals are so unbelievably racist and anti-social!
You’ll forgive me if I don’t follow your supplied link – what’s the point? No point at all. No point even arguing with zionists anymore. Why? Cause I think zionism’s elitist end is near.
eee,
last I checked, Saudi Arabia did not ethnically cleanse and occupy someone else’s land (unless you count Najd culturally and socially occupying the rest of Saudi – but that’s a different story).
Dude, if Israel is to have a lasting peace with its neighbors, it cannot continue to isolate itself any longer. You will end up destroying yourselves with your own hands, and even destroying much of the region with you. Either you make peace with Palestinians through a 1ss or a 2ss, or you continue sowing the fruits of this blind hate and bitterness, with all the sickness that will permeate your society. Israel will eventually have to make peace with its Arab neighbors to survive. If it doesn’t, it destroys itself.
Don’t view this transient phase in history as a prime reason against the very notion of integrating in the region – you only spell your own destruction, really, not ours. We’re here to stay. Deal with it.
Whatever.
I’d say the Arabs are on the road to Westernization. After all, Arabs love America but hate our foreign policy, right?
it is sooo ironical.
Jews started out as Arabs — from Ur.
On Ash Wednesday Roman Catholicism has a ritual: Catholics go to Church, and the priest puts ashes on their foreheads and recites this: “Remember, man, that thou art dust, and unto dust you shall return.”
We’ll lend it to you Jews, minorities that you are.
You can change the words around if you’d like:
Remember, Jews, that you were Arabs, and unto Arabs you shall return.
Amen.
yes. the arab world was very pro western at the end of world war 2 until they denied an arab group their rights and helped zionism conqueor palestine
yeah yeah PG, Jews were Arabs, but Jews are also an invention who are the ancestors of the Khazars.
Make up your minds already!!!
I never believed that the jewish people came from the jewish state of the Khazers. I belive that they came from palestine. but in the end they are still a religion. please refrain from pushing beliefs on me in attempt to make a point.
You know what I hate, more than anything else? When someone else tells lies, slanders people, and just all around behaves like a churl but it’s the people who react to that who get punished. And silenced.
It’s a very good metaphor for what Israel does to the Palestinians, one supposes.
Let me explain, AGAIN, yonira:
The ancient Hebrews were born and lived in pagan Arabia with their semitic pagan half-brothers and half-sisters (who later converted to islam).
The euro zionist invaders of modern mideast (Arab land) are exactly THAT: european AND converts. Yes them ashkanazi have roots in khazaria – this is european history.
That’s the (big) difference between a white jew and a brown jew.
In other words, the original jews were Arabs.
And just because you deny your own history and usurp another people’s doesn’t make you blood-related to Abraham, that great old Arabian sage of the great Arabian desert.
Can we call you a self-hating jew if you insist on denying your lineage yonira?
The cancer has spread all over the West Bank.
Please, let’s refrain from adopting the parlance of Zionism and referring to undesired populations as a “cancer.” This is simply an invitation for reverse ethnic cleansing.
Human beings are not CANCER, ever.
Thank you.
Bijou
Chill out.
Take a look at this map . link to btselem.org
The settlements are cancerous . Who said the people were ? They are just deluded low rent Israelis priced out of the
Israeli market.
The illness was introduced by Israel to ensure there could never be a Palestinian state.
It’s going to destroy Israel.
Either those people go and eee gets his 2 state solution or its onwards to the binational state.
“This is simply an invitation for reverse ethnic cleansing.”
Yeah, I can see it now, the Palestinians will attack Israel with white phosphorus, jets, cluster bombs. And have it all paid for by the US.
Sure, I’m real worried.
“Unbelievable.This fills my eyes with tears.”
Oh goodie, you’re so close to getting the excuse you need.
Me, I tend to think that if it happened, it happened because Barak wanted it to.
But unfortunately, you always hold Israelis to a lower standard.
So basically, if we can find a couple of good people in Israel, it excuses the rest?
Sooner or later, you gotta take a stand: Is having your religion in charge of a state a good thing or a bad thing? Or if only the good people take charge of this theocracy-cum-gangster state, everything will be hunky-dory?
I have come to the conclusion Phil, that you secretly, beyond what you can admit to yourself, delight in Israel and its intransigence.
To use a Dicken’s-like analogy: Gaza is the whipping child in Israel’s orphanage of oppression.
correction “Dickens’ “
Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark is now visiting Gaza on a solidarity mission.
And Medveyev is going to be visiting the WB even though he can’t go to Israel because the foreign ministry is on strike. What a bright future Israel has!
“Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark is now visiting Gaza on a solidarity mission.”
OOOH! I’m scared. Maybe he’ll stay there and find a few terrorists to take on as clients.
Nothing constructive to say, hophmi?
Phil, not only Jews study at Tel Aviv University. The heckler was Ali Muwassi of the Tajjamu’ party. You can see a video here – no English subtitles, but he’s shouting “you’re a liar, terrorist.” Barak calls him childish and says he’s taken risks to try and reach a settlement with the other side.
link to arabs48.com
thanks tom, will correct