Our friend Elliot had this comment on a post on Christian Zionism the other day. We're trying to break out comments from time to time.
Many Orthodox Jews are not believers. That's where Jews are different to Christians. Orthodox Judaism is also a lifestyle.
Commenter Michael W. is right. There is a large contingent of Orthodox Jews who very fervently believe that the exile is over. The hardcore of that group are the ideological settlers of the West Bank.
And as for eee, the fact that the mainstream ultra-Orthodox (commonly known as "black hats" or "black skullcap") no longer openly oppose the State of Israel does not mean that they believe the exile is over. They still say all the traditional prayers mourning the exile and have added nothing to the liturgy to indicate that anything has changed.
To the extent that there is an ultra-Orthodox dogma, they still believe in the exile. And for the reasons Craig Nielsen gives in the article.
What is mystifying to me is how Zionist secular American Jews are. Even as cultural and family assimilation picks up pace their Zionism remains undimmed. That indicates that the source of their Zionism is not Judaism (or the Judaism that is practised today in America).
Secularized Christian America may have done away with fish on Fridays but they are still good Zionists. American Jews are good Americans too ergo: they are just as Zionist as their Christian neighbors.
Christian Zionism is the reason American Jews support Netanyahu and settlements.
Part of my childhood and young adulthood was spent in Los Angeles – the largest jewish population center outside of israel … and what I found was that these very secular, very Westernized, very materialistic jews were supporters of israel because A. It was expected B. It was a “homeland” C. It gave them a sense of importance and strength D. It played into jewish supremacist thinking
and for the young males, it had a very macho swagger aspect to it – Entebbe, the Olympics revenge, 6-day war, etc etc. … there was very much a macho posturing aspect to it … and many of the young jewish males with which I was friends also supported right-wing extremist monsters like Irv Rubin – it made the guys at least feel like no one will fuck with the meanest kid on the block … pro-active bullying if you like
it is only these decades later that the israeli lobby’s nefarious influence and serial horrific war-crimes has finally been exposed and gains widespread attention thanks to the internet that the secularized American jewish identity finally breaks somewhat from israel
“Los Angeles – the largest jewish population center outside of israel” Not counting New York… or Miami, but why quibble?
“these very secular, very Westernized, very materialistic jews were supporters of israel because A. It was expected B. It was a “homeland” C. It gave them a sense of importance and strength D. It played into jewish supremacist thinking ”
Your personal prejudices are truly fascinating and offer great insight into almost nothing.
Your pompous self-importance only goes to prove radii’s point gf.
And what’s certainly NOT fascinating is YOU and your insidious anti-goy inverted snobbery.
So like what the heck do you want? For the whole world to be in-love and blind-proud of the apartheid state of israel like you are? Otherwise you consider them prejudice eh?
Sheesh – grow up and snap outta yer indulgent one woman personality cult.
“So like what the heck do you want? For the whole world to be in-love and blind-proud of the apartheid state of israel like you are? Otherwise you consider them prejudice eh?”
Uhh, Taxi, that can be a singularly hard point for Zionists to grasp.
Is that you singing here Mooser?:
link to youtube.com
“Is that you singing here Mooser?:”
Oh sure! I wish!
Actually, California — and Los Angeles in particular — has the largest Jewish population density in the US. So, saying that Los Angeles is the largest center outside Israel is true.
What’s your problem, frog?
So that’s how it is, huh? I comment on one guy and two of his cronies leap to his defence.
You guys are such playground bullies. This whole thread is a jumble of subjective bollocks, and you two are classic trolls who comment on the person, not the content. Ugh.
So you feel bullied, picked on, persecuted?
Is that all you got?
You’re no Oscar Wilde when you dish it out buster – just a pompous supremist wannabe wit-master.
“You guys are such playground bullies.”
Like regular Don Cossacks! Yes sir, when I was training for the monastery that was the first order every day: “Don Cassocks!”
[my emphasis]
Guess your irony meter is malfunctioning GF. In one comment you acknowledge your original comment was about the poster, not their comment – then you criticise other people for doing just that. Ugh!!!
“and for the young males, it had a very macho swagger aspect to it – Entebbe, the Olympics revenge, 6-day war, etc etc. … there was very much a macho posturing aspect to it … and many of the young jewish males with which I was friends also supported right-wing extremist monsters like Irv Rubin – it made the guys at least feel like no one will fuck with the meanest kid on the block … pro-active bullying if you like”
Have you been spying on me? Who told you about me? Why, that’s been a perfect description of me ever since ’67! Oy, did I swagger!
There is such a thing as lifestyle Christianity too, with social interaction far more emphasised than theological belief, which for many is not of absorbing interest. This is not necessarily a superficial thing – indeed a whole philosophy based on Wittgenstein’s exaltation of way of life over propositional belief was developed way back in the 50s and received a lot of Christian support.
On the other hand people to whom belief – thus orthodoxy of belief – is very important will always tend to think that way of life is not enough.
The question of whether Israelite exile is over does seem to be a question of belief rather than of way of life, and to depend, as questions of belief tend to, on what people mean. If ending exile means being en masse in an appropriate spiritual state then it’s unlikely, I’d have thought, that many people of traditional or orthodox belief will, when confronted with the non-orthodoxy of many others, think that the end has been reached.
On the other hand Zionism, an attitude and a habit of making certain choices, has been built into a way of life and so has a power to project itself through the generations. I’m not as sure as Elliot is (though I’m not saying that he’s wrong) that this is a secondary way of life, developed to fit in with another, that of the Christian Zionists. Why do we hear so little in this discussion from supporters of Zionism who are Christian or do not claim Jewish ethnicity? It is they who – even though they are very numerous – seem to be secondary, to have strangely little to say.
“Why do we hear so little in this discussion from supporters of Zionism who are Christian or do not claim Jewish ethnicity? It is they who – even though they are very numerous – seem to be secondary, to have strangely little to say.”
Lydda shed some light on this question in a recent post. She maintains that Christian Zionists listen only to Church news. They do not read MW or alternet. There appears to be no way to reach out to these folks, at least at this stage.
the stereotypical Christian Zionist (CZ) would have a really difficult time with this site because they generally tend to be legalistic in their life and worldview. therefore if they read/ see that someone is homosexual, atheist, uses profanity, is Catholic, or somehow diverges from their narrow worldview of life and “godliness” then that person is “not a true believer” and therefore should not be leaned on or taken seriously in matters of faith and life. that’s their general thinking in a nutshell.
also, i don’t think mondoweiss was open to hearing about Christian Zionists until more recently. mondoweiss certainly has MANY Christian readers, including many former CZ. also CZ are generally more interested in the theology of the end times than the humanity of Palestinians. i probably wouldn’t be stretching the truth if i told you CZ believed that Palestinians are “vessels made for dishonor”, a phrase taken from the bible to imply not chosen. how much space is there here to get into theology? i know that some of the best Christian minds that are critical of CZ read mondoweiss, maybe one of their articles can get a post?
“vessels made for dishonor”
What a buncha repugnant and regressive/barbarian campers!
Zealotry at it’s absolute evil squatting worse!
Shouldn’t these people be locked up somewhere tranquil and serene so they may experience REAL religion?
i know that some of the best Christian minds that are critical of CZ read mondoweiss, maybe one of their articles can get a post?
lydda, if you read something you think would make a good post send it to phil or adam. i’d be interested in reading it.
Me too, annie.
It seems Christians have a ‘lot of skin in this game’ as the saying goes.
I’ve just watched a 3 part interview with Harvard prof Dr Norton Mezvinski who maintains that the Christian Zionist Lobby is more influential than the Jewish Lobby in propping up the apartheid state of Israel. For example, he states that it was CZ money that paid for the transfer of Russian Jews in the late 80s and early 90s.
Here are the videos:
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Hi Taxi, I’m glad you’re back too.
I don’t know what we can do about these bigoted Christian Zionists. But we sure have to think of something! Fast! They’re a major major block to changing US and Canadian policy re Israel.
Locking up their very wealthy leaders might be a start.
I am in complete support of all ‘Name and Shame’ campaigns.
Pouring sunlight over gruesome shadows.
Thanks for shedding more light on the CZ, Lydda.
“i know that some of the best Christian minds that are critical of CZ read mondoweiss, maybe one of their articles can get a post?”
I second Annie in asking you to ask these righteous Christians to post articles on MW. You’re probably right in thinking too much theology wouldn’t be welcome. What we really need is an action plan to get rid of this lobby.
Why are secular, assimilating American Jews so Zionist? involvement with Israel is a very natural way to express one’s ethnicity, even if one isn’t religious. As a student, for example, the Greek student is reading the news from Greece, the Chinese student the news from China, etc. I started reading Haaretz 11 years ago as a way of being Jewish everyday. I told this to the rabbi and he understood.
Israel involvement is natural, and Zionism has (in the past) flowed smoothly from Judaism. What’s more, Zionism is written into the cognitive structure of newspapers and media. its possible to read the US media for decades and learn nothing about the Palestinians. They come across as vague, weak, terror-animals. And you learn nothing.
The fact that you ask the question about why American Jews are so Zionist shows that you have reached an advanced phase of thinking about the issue. For most American Jews, they have no idea that anything else is on offer besides for Zionism. I responded earlier to Phil’s desire for a big debate within the Jewish community about Zionism. For most people who haven’t seen the videos, photos and documents of the occupation, Palestine is viewed as an indistinct, undeserving, vague terror-blob. Most conversations on the subject are like a merry-go-round, where negative information about the Occupation, and positive information about Palestinians, doesn’t penetrate. It has no effect.
That’s what one might call False Equivalence.
The Greek student is from Greece. American Jews are not from Israel. They were born and raised in the US, and so were their parents and their grandparents.
I have yet to see third-generation Italian-Americans displaying the same fevered dedication to Italy the same way third-generation Jewish-Americans do to Israel.
The simple answer is that Zionism is a continuation of classical Judaism in secular form. The Holocaust is hell, anti-Semitism the devil, and Israel represents salvation. A secular religion which offers opportunities for devotion and community, with no god-head. A chance to appear to assimilate while maintaining a strong Jewish identity and a strong emphasis on tribal exclusiveness. The ability to have your cake and eat it too. For some Jews, anti-Zionism (neo-Zionism?) performs a similar function.
“For some Jews, anti-Zionism (neo-Zionism?) performs a similar function.”
Darn. Just can’t win. Of course, a sort of essential difference would be that most, if not all, anti-Zionist (if we open that term up to include any organised Israel-critical activity) espouse non-violence in their methods. Whereas Zionist groups not only espouse violenece they (barf) glorify vicarious violence which, as far as I’m concerned, is about as low as you can go, especially with children.
Yes, yes, I know guys, all the anti-Zionist stuff, it’s all directed by Hamas, yeah, yeah, yeah.
“Christian Zionism is the reason American Jews support Netanyahu and settlements.”
This statement is one of the most absurd and reprehensible things I have read on Mondoweiss over the last three years. If I had the time now I would write a lengthy and pointed rebuttal – but I don’t so I can only hope that others will perform that essential task. All you need is a little knowledge of the histories of America and the Zionist/settler movement itself to do it.
I was about to say the same thing…and I don’t have time either to go into a long rebuttal of Elliot’s statement.
I don’t know if Elliot is Jewish or Christian or neither but that statement is crazy to say the least.
I live in Christian and evangelical land and the christian zionist only interest in Israel is their weird beliefs and desire to see the ‘return of the Jews” result in the “Rapture” where all Jews not converted to Christians will flame out or be eaten by locust while they, the Christians, are transported to heaven from the temple mount.
So to say US Jews support Netanyahu and settlements “because of the christian zionist” is really an unbelievable statement….like saying Jews support the Christians converting them or setting them aflame before boarding their God sent End Times shuttle to heaven.
Really bizarre statement.
“Really bizarre statement.”
No, I like it! Blame the Gentiles! Always the best policy. And if I can’t blame the Gentiles, I just blame my wife.
It’s really hard to evaluate his statement without knowing what time period Elliot is referring to. Is he talking about ZIonism’s beginnings in Europe, or the present, when Christian Zionist support may have an influence on Israeli politics or policies?
Thomson –
Consider that:
1) Netanyahu acknowledged that Christian Zionism paved the way for Jewish Zionism.
2) There would be no State of Israel if not for the Christian Zionist British cabinet that issued the Balfour Declaration.
3) American Christian Zionist support is crucial to Netanyahu and to pro-Israel Jews.
4) Mainstream America is pro-Netanyahu. He gets to address a joint session of congress
5) The U.S. is a Christian country spanning from Christian fundamentalists to atheists (for whom the religion they don’t believe in is Christianity). We all observed the Christian calendar.
And from the Jewish angle:
1) Jews increasingly see no boundary between being Jews and being American i.e. culturally Christian.
2) Zionism is the ONLY article of dogma that Jews are expected to adhere too.
Isn’t it strange that the one thing that Jews have to believe, confess and act on to be mainstream Jewish is something completely safe. The traditional markers of Jewishness: no pork, endogamy and observing Saturday as the Sabbath are gone. Instead of this separate identity comes a concept that other American embrace anyway: Zionism.
The essential and sufficient requirement for being a good Jew is to espouse the doctrine of (cultural to religious) Christians.
I’m curious why you find this idea ‘reprehensible.’ Please tell me who I am offending.
You aren’t offending ‘anyone’ in particular….you’re just insulting the general intelligence of the average person with this stuff.
I’ve seen some really way out hasbara but this is so ..er…ridiculous…it should be embrassing to whatever zionist group thought this line up.
Elliot, I’m surprised at the responses to your 12:13 comment. They appear to have aroused very strong emotions. I don’t understand it.
One point: Shahid Alam, pp. 112-113 on the Balfour Declaration:
“The British cabintet that took office in December 1916 was also more sympathetic to Zionist claims. At least five of its members —the Prime Minister; Lord Balfour, Foreign Secretary; Lord Milner, member of the war cabinet; Lord Cecil, Minister of Blockade; and Winston Churchill, Secretary of State for Munitions— were all committed Zionists.” He goes and gives his sources.
Note: Alam, Shahid. “Israeli Exceptionalism” 2009
“…atheists (for whom the religion they don’t believe in is Christianity).”
Well said, Elliot! Spoken like a true Christian! Of course, the religion they don’t believe in may be religion, but you are prepared to be generous. I like that.
I wonder what Jewish atheists don’t believe in? If “eee” is any guide, there’s nothing they don’t believe in.
That sentence caught my attention when I read it, too. I have no idea what Elliot was thinking when he typed that, but I sure would like to know; as kids nowadays say, “WTF”?
” I have no idea what Elliot was thinking….”
Yeah, but I like where he is going with it. This blame the Gentiles thing is very attractive! First we blame them for persecuting us, and then we blame them (wait, I can improve on Elliot) for infecting our pure and peaceful Jewish Zionism with all their Gentile violence and colonialism!
Holy Smokes! Why not blame the Gentiles?
Elliot’s first 5 points are beyond dispute, aren’t they?
Certainly his statement “…atheists (for whom the religion they don’t believe in is Christianity”) is an unusual one and open to ridicule, but it too is correct, is it not?
The ratio of Christians to Jews in North America is high today and has always been high. I say Jews couldn’t have pulled off this swindle without enormous help from us goyim.
Elliot, I do not find it offensive because I think it springs from a lack of knowledge regarding the whole religion of Judaism to Zionism. I am not saying you are totally off, but where the fault lies in the history behind the development of Zionism. I must confess though, it would be a daunting task to run you through the whole of history to this point – so I think it might be good for you to do a little compact study, let me suggest something not exhaustive, but a good short treatment by Aki ORR –
ISRAEL: A ZIONIST STATE
This will take you through some historic basics, and some interesting insights, when you are done let me know what you think.
Elliot wrote:
Have you any proof for this? I’m basically asking you for a reliable source.
In general, I find your entire claim in your 12:13 comment to be ridiculous. But, that’s a different story.
‘Christian Zionism is the reason American Jews support Netanyahu and settlements.’
What do you base that on?
All due respect but this a shoddy attempt at passing the buck…instead of recognizing the nearly universal de rigueur support for Zionism in the Jewish American community you’re attempting to pass buck and blame it on trying to keep up with the Christian Zionists?
Most Jewish Americans live on the coasts, NYC, LA, FL…These are the most secular areas the country. I have lived in both places and I can tell you that there is no is social pressure from Christian Zionists or anyone else to support Israel. In my travels I’d be hard pressed to find any non-Jewish person who would “support” Israel, let alone, Netanyahu and settlements. No the support for Israel at all costs is not coming from outside of the Jewish community, just the opposite.
I know many people who emigrated to the US from Russia. Most of them were secular Russians who had Jewish roots. They signed up thru Jewish aid offices to go to Israel…and in the middle of going there changed their minds and applied for asylum here in the US instead. They have never been to Israel. They practice no form of Judaism. They have assimilated, intermarried, etc. If you asked, they would say that they identify first as Jewish and then perhaps Russian…American, etc. It is part of their how they identity themselves, even though there no form of traditional Judaism in their life. Typically they are also sensitive to any criticism of Israel and supportive of Israel no matter what. This doesn’t come from trying to keep up with Christian Zionists… a term they have probably never heard of.
They have an idealized view of Israel..something along the lines of ‘Jewish people never bother anyone. They are peaceful people that are being picked on by the Arabs.’ Knee jerk support for Israel is perhaps the only thing they do that makes them feel Jewish or part of the Jewish community. This it seems to me better explains why American Jews support Netanyahu and settlements…we live in a secular world. Religion and customs have been left behind…but people still want (need) to have identity…for being Jewish, this has become, ‘support for Israel’. This a problem. And it didn’t come from Christian Zionists.
I’ve got to agree with iamuglow here. Christian Zionism is not a big factor, or even a factor, period on the big urban centers on the West Coast, because Christian Zionism is the purview of evangelical Christians, who do not play a big role here in influencing opinion, and the role they do play is often looked at with disgust from the mainstream here – most definitely including the Jewish mainstream.
Elliot,
Secularized Christian America may have done away with fish on Fridays but they are still good Zionists.
Excuse me for pointing this out, but this statement alone indicates you don’t really understand the various branches of Christianity. Fish on Friday, or more exactly abstinence from meat on Friday, was most particularly a Catholic observance, not a Protestant one and certainly not an evangelical, or a Christian Zionist, one. The Second Vatican Council did away with the requirement for abstinence from meat, although it still recommended it for its Catholic followers. This had nothing whatsoever to do with what Protestants did or didn’t do(and abstaining from meat on Fridays was not something Protestants did), and even less to do with “secularized Christian America”.
They have an idealized view of Israel..something along the lines of ‘Jewish people never bother anyone. They are peaceful people that are being picked on by the Arabs.’ Knee jerk support for Israel is perhaps the only thing they do that makes them feel Jewish or part of the Jewish community. This it seems to me better explains why American Jews support Netanyahu and settlements…we live in a secular world. Religion and customs have been left behind…but people still want (need) to have identity…for being Jewish, this has become, ‘support for Israel’. This a problem. And it didn’t come from Christian Zionists.
I think iamuglow hit it on the head here. This also explains the blindness and the refusal to see what Israel does to its victims on the part of Zionist Jews. If one has wrapped up one’s identity with that of Israel, an attack on Israel’s actions becomes in one’s mind a personal attack on one’s self. If you believe that you are essentially a good person, but have over-identified with an entity that has done despicable things, its hard to admit that to yourself, as it becomes, in essence, an admittance about yourself, until and unless you can break that identification, which is a very difficult thing to do. Defensive mechanisms go into overdrive.
A number of comments: 1. American Jews who intermarry tend to be less supportive of Israel/Zionism. Which is the cause and which is the effect, I don’t know.
2. Judaism/Jewishness has existed in a diaspora/exile situation for over a thousand years and whatever pressures or social conditions contributed to the ability of the various groups of Jews to persevere in their Jewishness it also became part of the education passed down from generation to generation. If the Torah aspects of Judaism naturally disappears in a secular society, it does not surprise me that for those who care about the survival of the Jewish “people” caring about the Jewish state will persevere as an alternative to religion.
3. If Israel would be trouble free (a difficult idea to fathom) and would disappear from the constant headlines, Jewish identity with Israel would diminish. Greek Americans and Italian Americans hardly ever think about the country of origin of their grandparents because there is nothing to think about or to worry about (other than occasional economic crises, but certainly nothing of an existential nature). Jewish Americans have something to worry about and so there is a more intense identification. (The disappearance of the “homeland” of Jews in Eastern Europe, due to WWII naturally moved identification from Europe to Israel.)
4. Although 1967 was the date of the 6 day war and a change in the status of Israel vis a vis its neighbors and vis a vis the United States and policies regarding pan Arabism, we should not forget that the sixties also contained other important features: a. The black power movement when the blacks “asked” the Jews to step away and let the blacks control their own destiny. and b. the rejection of the idea of the melting pot and the embrace instead of ethnic identity. I think these elements meshed with the 6 day war in leading American Jews to identify with Israel more than they did earlier.
5. Russian Jews were treated as a separate category of ethnicity in a very intense way under the regime of the Soviet Union, so it is to be expected that their identity with the state of the Jews would be more intense.
Yes well, wondering jew, I would have to say that it is almost impossible to shake the feeling of being out of place, it has a deep root. It is like a flame that is occasionally lit, especially when we are treated with some sort of disdain, but I think it is something that can be overcome without resorting to this isolation resident in a Zionist island where people are used to the design of the few and thinking we have gained.
I mean I have experienced this otherness a few times when being accused of certain things in an antisemitic spirit, and it is painful but can be dealt with without recourse to the extremity of Israel. Some might think this is a corny example in the link (the first 5 minutes), but in a number of instances it has been true, it should just not produce senseless escape from the world to our own detriment –
THE “TRADESMAN”
So, when I reflect on things like the Balfour Declaration, I am not so sure its motivation was Christian Zionism, in fact it looks to me like antisemitism. It was Europe in many instances getting rid of its “Jewish Problem,” but it is not the same today. In fact, it has proven to be nothing less than a curse, being immersed in this regional hegemony in the name of Western hegemony, and bequeathing impunity is deadly and damaging for everyone concerned.
Identity and ethnicity in Zionism is not a given, it is a quandary, and no marriage by Ben-Gurion between the two can avert a well deserved divorce. Judaism is not Zionism and it never will be, and Zionism is not representative of all the people. Better to embrace all of humanity, it is an inevitable destination and has bought great reward.
“Why are secular assimilating American Jews so Zionist?”
Cokie Roberts’ husband Steve Roberts did an excellent job explaining WHY? Though that question wasn’t their intention, listen to then on NPR’s Talk of the Nation or read my transcription below: relevant discussion begins at 3:00 and ends at 4:30, link to npr.org
Here’s the summary of what they said, “tribally and culturally Jewish … non-observant Jewish family … to say the least … mother was a Jewish woman deeply attached to tribe and culture … these were people who were very political and zionist … that is actually quite typical … they were very Jewish just not religious … they were tribally and culturally Jewish … never went to a synagogue … never participated in any religious ritual … but as you point out in that world of Eastern European immigrant Jews often politics replaced religion, zionism, socialism, bundism (?) … they were all very powerful i used to tell my grandfather his real Rabbi was actually Larry Speevak who was the host from Meet the Press when he was growing up … and my grandfather’s religious devotion was to listen to “Rabbi” Larry … but that grandfather had gone to Palestine as a young man and as a pioneer [pioneer what!? who?! nice revision on history Cokie, as if Palestinians weren't in Palestine then?] so he was very much a zionist [Z-word on NPR makes host nervous dog whistle to change subject goes off ...]
thoughts? seems pretty obvious to me …
i was transcribing this in the middle of the night, see a need to clarify/ correct what i wrote. this should read more like,
“… but as you point out in that world of Eastern European immigrant Jews often politics replaced religion -zionism, socialism, bundism (replaced Judaism) …”
the answer my friends is found on NPR, though the NPR story does not provide a transcription and the NPR write-up does not mention zionism, socialism, bundism as powerful forces replacing religion/ Judaism.
I’ll summarize and respond to several of the criticisms raised in response to my post:
1) –Talking about the Christian background and influence on Jewish Zionism is an attempt to shift the blame. –
I don’t see a contradiction between taking responsibility and describing background causes. If Jews are assimilated in Christian culture/lifestyle, then saying that their Zionism is influenced by CZ is just ascribing their Zionism to the part of them that is Chistian-influenced.
2) –Folks posted alternative explanations such as Jews need a muscular hero and the Israeli provides that.–
I think that is true of many Jews in their 50s and higher. But I don’t get that, as a general rule, that resonates with Jews in their 20s and 30s. Despite this, Zionism and blind support for Netanyahu are still the norm.
3) –I think it was Avi who asked for historical differentiation and to show the link between David Lloyd George’s Christian Zionist cabinet and the Zionist movement.–
As many others have shown, CZ has a long pedigree, dating most significantly to the early to mid 19th century. To this day Jerusalem is full of institutions built by Christians who were sympathetic to, or espoused a Zionist theology. Several of these were formerly Jewish. For example, Alphonse Ratisbonne and the order of Notre Dame de Zion and, Bishop Alexander the former rabbi turned Protestant missionary. These buildings and institutions still active and are significant in Jewish-Christian relations.
But, far more significant was the CZ movement back home, in Great Britain and the U.S, in particular. And this movement shows no signs of abating.
Regarding the paramount significance of the British government’s endorsement of Zionism to the success of Zionism, I’ll just add that when General Allenby claimed the Holy Land from the Muslim Ottoman Empire for the British, not only did he change the political climate for Palestinian Jews (see Tom Segev among others) but he also ushered in a joint Jewish-British (Christian) administration. Lloyd George’s Balfour Declaration was just the formal piece that was emblematic of what was, in signifcant ways, a joint enterprise. For example, the first head of the Jewish Agency’s political department, one of the top Zionist positions was a (Jewish) British Army officer. He was seconded to that position by the (Christian) head of British Military Intelligence in WWI.
Overall, the thrust of my posting was directed at Israeli Jews who are increasingly isolated. They don’t get that Israel functions as an extension of the Christian world, not just as an extension of the West.
Finally, I still don’t see a better explanation for why young, assimilated American Jews are Zionist. The one Jewish marker that all Jews (outside of Mondoweiss) hold on to is a belief they share with their Christian neighbors who are living out the tradition of CZ.
I understand that is not the interest of most folks here, but I see our movement as a reclaiming of Jewish values both from the Jewish religious nationalists and the Christian Zionists.
Elliot,
This is telling…
“the thrust of my posting was directed at Israeli Jews who are increasingly isolated. They don’t get that Israel functions as an extension of the Christian world, not just as an extension of the West.”
Are you trying to convince Israeli Jews that they’ve been the victims(?) of Zionism because its been pushed on them by the ‘Christian world’
(whatever that means in 2011)? Really? I’m starting think, maybe this post isnt meant to be taken seriously
“Finally, I still don’t see a better explanation for why young, assimilated American Jews are Zionist. The one Jewish marker that all Jews (outside of Mondoweiss) hold on to is a belief they share with their Christian neighbors who are living out the tradition of CZ.
I understand that is not the interest of most folks here, but I see our movement as a reclaiming of Jewish values both from the Jewish religious nationalists and the Christian Zionists.”
Well, I appreciate the confession that you did not read the link I provided, nor do you have much of a connection with reality – your position is understandable. This usually happens when you do not study major works but go on surface perceptions – god bless America :)
tree –
Secularized Christian America may have done away with fish on Fridays but they are still good Zionists.
Excuse me for pointing this out, but this statement alone indicates you don’t really understand the various branches of Christianity.
Y’know that always smelled fishy to me, and now you tell me that Christianity has different denominations. This is fascinating stuff.
Historically, CZ is a Protestant phenomenon. Jewish lobbyists such as Eckstein court Protestant fundamentalists. Relationships with the Vatican is a very different kettle of fish on any day of the week.
For real, I am curious to learn more about how Zionism plays in the Catholic church.
That still does not explain, nor does it support, the claim that you had previously put forth. I see nothing in the above two paragraphs that would lead one to agree with your conclusion.
That’s quite a spurious link AND claim, certainly the”there would be no state of Israel if not for the Christian Zionist British cabinet” bit.
Evidence exists that shows Britain at the time was actually trying to encourage Jews to leave, and a Jewish homeland in Palestine was a welcome opportunity. But, that doesn’t amount to Christian Zionism.
Again, that’s quite a stretch. You seem to have inserted the word “Christian” so as to support your initial claim. I have yet to come across any historical records that show the British government actively sought to occupy the region for ideological/religious reasons as was the case evidently so during the Crusades.
Avi, you are correct, just to give this fellow (Elliot) who thinks he can say what he pleases with no support, one has only to look at history in regard to the actions of Lord Balfour up until this time (rather than pulling some idea out of ones dark nether regions as Elliot has done). This not only shows the danger of presentism in historical anaylsis (reading current day newer trends into the past), but a disrespect for historical facts at the time.
Lord Balfour was a strong supporter of the British Alien Act of 1905, who’s main purpose was to stem the flow of Jewish immigration into Britain. He (Lord Balfour) came to believe that the moving of the Jews to Palestine because they could not live in harmony with their countries of residence.
Balfour expressed this opinion in the forward of the book “History Of Zionism,”
“For as I read its meaning it is, among other things, a serious endeavour to mitigate the age-long miseries created for Western civilisation by the presence in its midst of a body which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb. Surely, for this if for no other reason it should receive our support.”
Hardly the glowing support of a clandestine “Christian Zionist” view, by any stretch of the imagination (unless your imagination is unfettered by the course of factual history). The Alien Act of 1905 was penned as a response to the pogroms in Tsarist Russia, right after the atrocities which was the prime time to escape the terror. If Elliot had done his homework properly he would have also seen the horrible condition we were placed in British ghettos. There (in the ghettos) where disease spread like wildfire, and not even the possibility of probability of being hooked up to the sewer systems for sanitation. We were blamed for the housing prices because of overcrowding, and of stealing the jobs – all of this was written into the Alien Act –
“The arrival in this country of large numbers of Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe and settling in the East End of London led the Conservative MP for Stepney, Major William Evans Gordon, to call for legislation. In the House of Commons in January 1902, he moved an amendment to the Queen’s Speech complaining that English families were being “ruthlessly turned out to make room for foreign invaders” who were bringing disease and crime with them. In some schools “few English children are to be found”. He objected to “advertisements on the walls in a foreign tongue”. In a particularly poisonous metaphor, he argued that “ten grains of arsenic in 1,000 loaves would be unnoticeable and perfectly harmless, but the same amount if put into one loaf would kill the whole family that partook of it”. ” The Queens “contribution.”
ALIEN ACT 1905
What angers me is the assumptions not based on the facts, and the hubris that will not even examine these facts. If you do not want to do the proper study than spare us by not posting the tripe.
ALIEN ACT 1905, P.2
One just needs to do a cursory examination of what the strictures were in this Alien Act in order to read between the lines. The knowledge is also necessary of our condition is Tsarist Russia at the time, being sequestered in shtetl and closed off from common “employment” as defined in the Alien Act. In the spirit of the age one can easily see how this would be and was used in prejudicial form with all the intended “legality” of antisemitism.
Were the British signers of the 1917 Balfour Declaration ardent zionists AND Christian bigots?
Did these few wealthy, imperially-minded, aristocrats actually believe the nasty nutty rapture story invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1830s?
Did many British upper and lower middle class people (Christian Protestants of all stripes) believe this outrageous story in 1917? Did the poor and the homeless believe it?
And finally, in the decades following the 1830s — decades of massive British immigration — did millions of poor Christian zionists bring the rapture story with them to North America, where, at the hands of Cyrus I. Scofield, commentaries in the British bible were adapted to bolster the credentials of this vile nonsense.
****
I think the answer to all these questions is YES. Here are my thoughts.
The charge of Christian bigotry. Guilty! My British ancestors were equal opportunity bigots. The Jews were not exceptional in being their victims. Think of the Crusades. The Roman Catholics in Ireland. The pagan peoples of North America. Africa. South Sea Islanders… and on and on.
Anti-Semitism? The myth of the Jew as Outlandish Other. Certainly it was present. Inbred, is perhaps a better word. I blame the editorial boards of the Old and New Testaments for anti-Semitism. If this disease breaks out in virulent form in the coming years, I will blame Israeli Zionists and their CZ enablers.
Was there something special about 1917?
Absolutely. The battle of Passchendaele took place between July and November. 250,000 British men died. And the Americans were coming! The British empire was falling apart, a new empire was on the rise. Death was on the minds of everyone. So was the lure of heaven, of seeing lost loved ones again.
And there was a still deeper well of death, grief, and bitterness that 19th century British people had to drink from. A whole world was being lost to them. Consider this account by Tim Lambert. It is one I don’t think any historian would dispute.
“During the 19th century Britain was transformed by the industrial revolution. In 1801, at the time of the first census, only about 20% of the population lived in towns. By 1851 the figure had risen to over 50%. By 1881 about two thirds of the population lived in towns.
Furthermore in 1801 the majority of the population still worked in agriculture or related industries. Most goods were made by hand and very many craftsmen worked on their own with perhaps a labourer and an apprentice. By the late 19th century factories were common and most goods were made by machine.”
Death had still another aspect in 19th century Britain. It was common as muck. No antibiotics.. No birth control pills or vasectomies. Poor water, worse sanitation. Women gave birth to many babies, many of them died.
Most British people believed in God, in Heaven. Church-going was the norm. The King James bible was a treasured item in British homes; many knew its words by heart. Their Protestant ancestors had died in a hundred years of religious warfare for the freedom to read the bible in English. And to interpret it as they saw fit.
As their old world collapsed around them, a cult of death developed among British Protestants, one with an apocalyptic edge. Mementos of the departed adorned every genteel parlour ledge. Spiritualists were in huge demand. Grieving relatives held séances to communicate with their loved ones. Many séances. Conon Doyle was big in all this. Queen Victoria spent decades mourning her Albert. Theodore Wagner first patented Ouija boards, sometimes referred to as “talking boards,” in London, England on January 23, 1854.
Many distraught Protestants also looked to bible prophets, to their descriptions of Zion, the perfect world. A collective hysteria seems to have been abroad in the land. In 1917, the signers of the Balfour Declaration would not have been immune.
Thanks Phil, for breaking out Elliot’s comment. I’ve sure learned alot following this thread. And by doing the research for my last comment.
And Elliot, thank you! You’ve taken an awful battering!
Disclaimer: I’d read Elliot’s comments on two previous threads, I knew he was the real deal. His awkward predicament (a complete absence of visible ‘creds’) made me think of my comment a week ago, where I’d informed a bothersome newbie that MW’s regular posters were “good-hearted” and “highly-educated” folks who contributed under “trying conditions.” Such was the case here. Online anonymity is both blessing and curse. But still, a bit of an intro wouldn’t go amiss when comments are broken out.
And another thing Elliot, your particular interests: 1. The effect on young Jews of the long-running war that is the State of Israel. 2. How Zionism plays in the Catholic church. Both issues should be addressed quickly,
if the young idf-trained hasbarists on mondo are a portent of the future.
Gotta go and cast my vote as a Canadian citizen. Boy, do I hope we throw out Israel’s best friend, CZ Stephen Harper.
So patm, what do you do for an encore, tell us how the colonials in Canada loved and cared for the indigenous population (see patm link)? Where do these people come from Mr. Weiss? Incredible…
“Where do these people come from Mr. Weiss? Incredible…”
VR, do you have any idea how pompous this statement sounds?
Patm –
Thanks for the compliment. No worries. I’m be surprised by the language of some of the commenters – it seems like the standard decibel level in the MW comments section.
I probably would have worded my comment more carefully had I known it was going to be lifted and published as a formal post. Regardless, the core issues still stand.
I haven’t got the time to answer everyone particularly as mostly they don’t go to the core issues.
@ Avi – I don’t think General Allenby’s administration or the subsequent British Mandatory government need to show that they were seeking to recreate the Crusades in order to be considered Christian. I did not argue that Allenby conquered Palestine because he was a Zionist. But the subsequent British administration was deeply committed to Zionism and I gave examples.
As MHughes noted Christianity is a lifestyle too. Secularized Jews meet secularized Christians in a society that is on a spectrum from secularized to various forms of religious Christian.
Of course there are internal, Jewish reasons for favoring Zionism over other traditional markers of Jewish identity in the mid to late 20th century, but it seems to me insufficient to put down the surprising longevity and reach of this concept to inertia. Taken with the prevalence of Zionism in the general population, it’s just too convenient.
This reminds me of how early Jewish religious reformers (in the early 19th century) made a big deal of the Bible (Old Testament), downplaying or rejecting the canonical works of rabbinical Judaism.
Conveniently, this was the one part of Judaism that could be shared with Christians. Again, there too, there were other reasons for favoring the Hebrew Bible over the Talmud but, the Christian crossover element is significant.
Isolating Jewish Zionism as a purely Jewish phenomenon feeds into the damaging Israeli myth of “a people that dwells alone.” Zionism is a European concept and is intimately tied in with Christianity as Patm and others have shown. Even for secular Israelis, Zionism has a religious component. Although that religious component is Jewish, it is the Judaism of a Christian world, what we Jews call Ashkenazi Judaism. Yet we hardly ever acknowledge our deeply involved religious relationships with Christianity.
Zionism is no exception.
Nice shift in the argument Elliot, from the outside in to the inside out – the only thing lacking is a knowledge of the time on your part. One has only to see the statements by the wonderful “Christian” gentlemen like Lord Balfour who said – “we will get a loyal Jewish Ulster in Palestine,” to understand his sentiments in maintaining imperialism in the region (while his Christian eyes teared up).
The problem is that you posit someone like Balfour’s activity in his supposed “Christian” sentiments, when they actually spring from the antisemitic view that the Jews cannot assimilate, lets say as it was said at the time, when they reach a certain saturation number. This is further immersed in the view that we bring persecution by our own activity on ourselves, because of this inherent need to subvert whatever order. You try to substitute a “harmless” religious Christian view for reams of documentation which shows what I am talking about at the time. It is indeed a trait of antisemitism to deny such strongly while feeding it to the victim.
In the end it matters little whether the sentiments are antisemitic or of the “harmless” Christian variety (“harmless” as lets say one of the strongest proponents of Christian Zionism, Hagee, who only makes statements like Hitler was sent by god to drive the Jews to Palestine in his great divine plan – which included the Holocaust, that it was both judgement for rejecting Christ and blessing for end time – of course, not antisemitic at all…), because it has created the debacle we have today. The denial of antisemitism by both the antisemitic and the Christian means little, because both the antisemitic and the harmless Christian Zionist cling to the the view of a present raging antisemitism which will never end and is clung to by the Zionist proponents leaving the Israelis in a permanent state of neurosis. There is little difference between antisemitism that “lovingly” puts us in this condition in a religious end-time doctrine , and the one that paints swastikas on someones door.