Today I talked to Col. Desmond Travers, a member of the U.N. Human Rights Council's mission on the Gaza conflict, who lives in the Republic of Ireland, about the Israeli treatment of children in the occupied territories.
Col. Travers: If the British had behaved toward children who threw stones at them in the manner that is the norm on the West Bank for the Israeli security forces-- whereby children are rounded up in the evening and taken to places of detention, hooded, beaten, and in some cases tortured-- the northern Ireland problem would not be resolved today. It would still be a place of conflagration.
Why is that?
We talked to a psychiatrist in Gaza, and he said, "We already see in our schools in Gaza the next generation of Hamas revolutionaries, children exposed to so much violence, they have no option but to terminate their childhood and move into a different frame, and the likelihood is that they will never stabilize."
But what would have happened had this taken place in Northern Ireland?
We could not have stood idly by-- the Republic of Ireland would not have stood idly by. Our prime minister said that [in 1969]. He was specifically referring to severe discriminatory and violent behavior toward Catholic enclaves in Belfast and Derry [in northern Ireland]. They were in danger of being annihilated. And in that scenario there [would have been] no option for the Irish.... Even without an army.. if they had crossed the border in some fashion, militarily, they would have internationalized the event, and the U.S. couldn’t ignore it, and certainly the int'l community and European community couldn’t have ignored it.
Make the connection to children.
If this were done to Irish children, we would have had a conflagration that would have forced a Republic of Ireland intervention, which would have imposed an American intervention-- if the Irish Diaspora had any influence.
Just as important, if they had targeted children, they would have created a multigenerational conflict that could still be with us today. You know, we still have conflict today but it's the old loyalists and old Republicans that are at this. Whereas in the West Bank and Gaza, the predictions are that it's the young children who have been brutalized and traumatized who will be tomorrow's activists.
So you are telling me that the situation in Palestine is an extreme one.
Well it wasn’t extreme when I lived in Israel 25 years ago. It is now.
What are you saying? Now is all that matters.
I am saying that it is deliberate. Someone made a conscious decision, peace is not in our interest. Control and instability are best for business. Managed instability is in their long term best interest.
The rabid reaction of the Israeli public to the arrival in Israel of 600 people who want to help the palestinians non violently show that Israel has interest in neither peace nor justice.
Ehud Barak’s lies about the flotilla expose what passes for the Israeli left as complicit in the torture of Gaza.
Israel has been captured by the settlers and the Rapturists.
It is beyond redemption absent a revolution.
This should be on the front page of every newspaper in the world. Like Murdoch, Israel has been corrupted by its own power to do as it likes. It has hidden its evil from the majority and now assumes it always can, coupled with lying and flagrantly untrue denials. However, like Murdoch, truth catches up with you in the end, and when it does, the whole rotten, corrupt and venal empire can come crashing down around your head. Truth is like water dripping on a stone.
Israel is going to end up with the Murdoch treatment.
There is too much shame that has to be covered up and hidden from the world for it to be safe when the light arrives. Zionism today is darkness.
And of course Murdoch is a fanatical Zionist and Neo-Conservative. War criminal Tony Bliar was on the phone to him throughout the Iraq war so Murdoch could brainwash the public with propaganda “proving” Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in his newspapers.
That’s lovely jwp.
“We already see in our schools in Gaza the next generation of Hamas revolutionaries”
Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with being indoctrinated with hateful radical islamic ideology in school, summer camps, and on Hamas TV.
No, it’s all Isreal’s fault.
It must be.
You believe everything you read in Jpost, huh. I would say that you reap what you sow, and Israel has sown the seeds of violence in children by their hateful radical Zionist ideology promulgated everywhere in Israel, in the schools, summer camps and TV. It wasn’t Hamas who rained down bombs on children and their families, starved them, destroyed their schools and houses, deprived them of medicine or caged them in an open air prison like animals. That was Israel. Ideology is one thing, traumatic violence is another. Being indifferent to the suffering of children, targetting them to punish parents – that is about as sick as you can get. And Israel excels at these practices.
“It wasn’t Hamas who rained down bombs on children and their families [...]”
It was *Hamas* that fired thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, forcing Israel to retaliate.
And it was *Hamas* that chose to “defend” itself using illegal gorilla tactics[1] during Cast Lead, thereby causing the high Palestinian civilian casualty rate which would have otherwise been avoided.
(Note that, due to IDF vigilance, the civilian-to-soldier casualty ratio was still several magnitudes lower than in similar inner-city battles in history, especially ones were Arab armies were the invading forces).
————–
[1] Illegal tactics (each of which is a war crime) used by Hamas include, but are not limited to:
– barricading themselves in densely populated inner-city places, rather than confronting the IDF in open places such as fields and bays
– using hospital roofs as missile launching sites
– using schools and nursery homes for ammunition storage
– fighting without wearing uniforms that would differentiate fighters from civilians
Sandy’s Hasbarrow over floweth
“It was *Hamas* that fired thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, forcing Israel to retaliate”
A) Hamas is a response to Israel usurping and dispossessing the Palestinians, which began years before Hamas was formed. B) The Israeli military has also suffered casualties from these ‘thousands of rockets’.
“the civilian-to-soldier casualty ratio was still several magnitudes lower than in similar inner-city battles in history, especially ones were Arab armies were the invading forces”
Sources? (nil at a guess)
“barricading themselves in densely populated inner-city places, rather than confronting the IDF in open places such as fields and bays”
Is not a war crime to protect yourself by hiding or camouflage in your own territory or to protect your property and it is not a legal requirement during war to fight from open places.
“using hospital roofs as missile launching sites … etc “
Non partisan sources…. thx
” fighting without wearing uniforms that would differentiate fighters from civilians”
A) The Laws of War and GC’s do not call for a uniform. B) The IDF and Livni IN THE KNESSET tell us Hamas wear uniforms
It was *Hamas* that fired thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, forcing Israel to retaliate.
nobody forced israel to do anything. israel broke the ceasefire. had they been interested in no rockets they wouldn’t have broken it. they planned their massacre in bad faith after the ceasefire agreement. this is israel 101, spare us your rudimentary bs hasbara. been there, done that.
Sandy,
You really must be some kind fo idiot to try selling this recycvled trash on this web site.
False. Israel broke a 4 months ceasefire, on the day of the US presidential elections, killing 6 Palestinians. Wkileaks reveaaed that Isrel wanted to broke the ceasefire because Hamas were becomming too politically strong.
Israel then rejected a call in December to return ot a ceasefire.
Absolute rubbish. Isrlae started the war based on lies and Hamas defended using the only lmeans they had at their disposal.
Perhaps Israeli trops should have gone string into Israel without using F16′s to bomb the place, and without tanks and bullet proof vests to show how manly they were. That surely woudl have rduced the amount of collateral damage (children they killed) they inflcited.
Debunked BS. Hamas did not use hospital roofs as missile launching sites
Debunked BS. Hamas did not use schools and nursery homes for ammunition storage
The IDF do that all the time.
“Being indifferent to the suffering of children, targetting them to punish parents – that is about as sick as you can get”
Which is why Israel doesn’t do that.
The only ones who purposefully sacrifice the lives of children for political gain are Hamas and their supporters.
Which is why Israel doesn’t do that.
link to btselem.org
thanks tree, here’s more
and here’s from one of the links in that blockquote:
and the ‘village’ link
cruel cowards using special units to target children.
And thanks back atcha, annie!
And more:
14 Feb.’11: B’Tselem volunteers film soldiers waking children in Nabi Saleh to take their photographs
Israeli Channel 10 TV aired yesterday footage filmed by Nariman and Bilal a-Tamimi, volunteers in B’Tselem’s video project and residents of Nabi Saleh, offering a rare glimpse into a new method employed by the army: soldiers enter homes at night to photograph youngsters from the village. The soldiers enter the homes and demand that every child and youth over the age of 10 be wakened. They then photograph the minors and leave. B’Tselem knows of at least four incursions of this kind during January 2011.
The army uses the photographs to identify minors who throw stones during the regular Friday demonstrations in the village. Soldiers then return to their homes at night and arrest them.
link to vodpod.com
Video is in Hebrew.
More on this from annie’s link:
link to 972mag.com
Israel massacred 330 children in Gaza, not the Palestinians.
Children are Israel’s main target of choice, especially amend IDF snipers.
@annie
Ah yes, if Joseph Dana says so, it must be a true and neutral account of what happened. (Hint: There might be some sarcasm here…)
Oh please, Israel does it every day of the week. The Hamas bogeyman is all you can offer in response, which as feeble as they come. I suppose you believe in Bigfoot too. Try reading the myriad of articles on this site about the corroborated and witnessed vindictive and deliberate cruelty of Israel to all Palestinians but most unforgivably to children.
there’s a video at the link sandy. or, according to you, are those idf soldiers dressed up for another pallywood production? those good ol days of israel’s mythical goodness are over now dearie, the palestinians and internationals started documenting the crimes against humanity going on over there. people tend to believe what they see and hear with their own eyes and ears. that is exactly why israel didn’t allow foreign reporters into their gaza massacre and they confiscated all the cameras and videos on the flotilla. it’s amazing what one video of an idf soldier pumping bullets into the brain of furkan lying down will do to strip away the fantasy of innocent israel, isn’t it?
go stuff a sock in it, you’re narrative is toast here.
“go stuff a sock in it, you’re narrative is toast here”
Ha, word!
tree and annie – thank you… i notice sandy has gone silent…
it is interesting the anology to ireland being used here as it seems to me the irish have been much more outspoken and proactive in a movement towards addressing israels state of apartheid… that i find especially interesting given irelands history….
“The only ones who purposefully sacrifice the lives of children for political gain are Hamas and their supporters.”
Sandy is a cruel and dangerous person supporting the apartheid state of Israel
Palestinian doctor’s daughters killed during live Israeli TV report
link to rawstory.com
sandy…said,
“Which is why Israel doesn’t do that.
The only ones who purposefully sacrifice the lives of children for political gain are Hamas and their supporters.”
*******
Hey sandy…your beloved Israeli IDF/police at work!!!
No words needed…when a picture says it all !
~~~~~
The day Israel used a Palestinian boy aged 13 as a human shield
Click on link to view:
link to normanfinkelstein.com
Like you don’t?
West Bank Rabbi: Jews can Kill Gentiles, What if he were an Imam …
www.loonwatch.com/…/west-bank-rabbi-jews-can-kill-gentiles-what… – CachedNov 9, 2009 – An Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in the West Bank has written that it is permissible for Jews to kill Gentiles including children and babies who ….
If the British had behaved toward children who threw stones at them in the manner that is the norm on the West Bank for the Israeli security forces– whereby children are rounded up in the evening and taken to places of detention, hooded, beaten, and in some cases tortured…
Why is it so hard for some Zionists to understand this simple fact of human life? You treat a child like shit and that child will come to hate you. He doesn’t need to be “indoctrinated” by anyone else. You have done all the indoctrinating yourself by your cruelty.
Israel treats the Palestinians like shit and then acts as if the hatred it see in return is somehow unexplainable except by “radical islamic ideology”. Its the height of stupidity. Maybe you should question your own indoctrination Sandy, because its very apparent to us here that you are the indoctrinated one.
Yes, the same israel that fails to teach its children about Palestine, that rears them to have little more than comtempt for these “other” in the land they are told is “theirs” from sea to river. That then teaches them to brutalize them during army service. Nothing to do with plain old zionist supremacist ideology, that their own schools, summer camps and ZioTV blares at them day after day of their lives. Couldn’t *possibly* be poor ickle israel’s fault.
Sandy, Hamas TV doesn’t instantly flip a Gazan kid out.
If you’re insinuating that no one factor contributes to radicalization, then let’s agree.
However, I’d put Hamas TV at the bottom of the list. More immediate influences are abound. Like, the violence those kids live under from the occupation.
I think we should also ask ourselves whether Zionists seem to think Palestinians are more radicalized than themselves – because of the brand of Hamas Islamism that persists.
I think Zionists consider themselves less radical, precisely because of this and they use things like Hamas TV, to draw that line.
No, it’s all Isreal’s fault.
i’ve said it before and i will say it again, there is NOTHING in this conflict as abhorrent as the targeting of children under israel’s apartheid military rule. kidnapping them from their homes, torturing them, incarcerating them, using them as pawns to control families and society. it is despicable, inhuman and disgustingly gross. yes, that is all israel’s fault, without a doubt.
what kind of cowards go after the children in a society? if this were happening to jewish children you would be screaming bloody murder.
Sandy, habibi
Tell us what you know about the history of Gaza.
Who are the people of Gaza? Where did they come from and why are they in Gaza?
>> Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with being indoctrinated with hateful radical islamic ideology in school, summer camps, and on Hamas TV.
Indoctrination is partly to blame, but without a receptive audience, indoctrination is not very effective. Israel’s ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder has helped to create that receptive audience. Taking a simple-minded “They only hate us for our freedoms!” approach doesn’t change that reality.
Sandy.
“it’s all Isreal’s fault”
Indeed. Israel has brought this upon itself and the Palestinians.
On the 25th May 1948 Jewish forces were already outside of the territory being declared as the modern Jewish Homeland, the State of Israel. They had already cleansed tens of thousands of non-Jews from territory that became Israel and from territory outside of Israel.
Had Israel adhered to the UN Charter as it stated in the Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel and withdrawn Jewish forces to Israel’s newly declared sovereign territory and acknowledged RoR for the PART of a MINORITY (simple maths tells us there was and still is no demographic threat) of non-Jewish CIVILIANS who had fled the violence, there’d've been no UN or UNSC Resolutions against Israel.
By not withdrawing Jewish forces on May 15th 1948, the civil war that existed and was escalated under Plan Dalet pre-declaration, became a war waged by the State of Israel against what remained of the Provisional State of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of that Provisional State.
Israel has ignored all UNSC Resolutions and the UN Charter in respect to Palestine. It has continued to usurp, illegally acquire territory, illegally annex territory, illegally settle territory.
There are exactly NO UNSC Resolutions against any Arab State in respect to the I/P conflict. There are NONE against any Arab state for attacking Israel. NIL. NADA. NOUGHT. ZIP!!
The Arab states and the Palestinians have NO THING belonging to Israel. NO UNSC Resolution calls for peace in Israel. They call for peace in Palestine.
This “hateful radical islamic ideology in school, summer camps, and on Hamas TV.”
….will of course be courtesy of Memri , Camera, PMW. None of which ever have their translations corroborated.
It’s close to impossible to forgive crimes against children. Especially crimes of actual torture.
There’s no excuse for that and there’s certainly no forgiveness for the perpetrators – ever! Even in times of peace.
If you tolerate this your children will be next
link to youtube.com
“The future teaches you to be alone
The present to be afraid and cold”
Israel is just a repeat of the 1930s in Spain. Liberman is Franco.
wow, powerful video
There’s going to be a big traffic jam in hell the day Israel and it’s supporters get their just deserts.
Of course, Col. Travers is correct – when the children are targeted it is generational, showing that the Israelis want conflict without end. I will not call it war, they want perpetual massacre of the Palestinians. You cannot disconnect the activity from those in power and their conscious decisions, nothing occurs without that governments complete approval, and the government is a rubber stamp for its own elites designs – the people are the dupes and the willing participants that assassinate their brains for whatever material advance.
I can remember a while back a lady telling me how terrible it was to see children armed in a photograph from Gaza. She was completely taken back when I said “damn them,” that is, the Israelis – they want to perpetuate this slaughter of the children. It is no different that my damning the USA for its policies globally, or any other dominant country – anyone can see the even hand, so it is extremely difficult to accuse me of prejudice, especially in light of the fact that I am also a member of the community.
As long as people are aware of the fact that it seems ridiculous to appeal to a global superpower (USA) that kills children globally without a twinge of conscience when addressing a regional dominant (Israel) that does the same thing – they are in bed together. However, until people realize these inconsistencies they can continue to address a stone wall – when they are ready the people can tear the wall down. My only question is when will people become cognizant of the illegitimacy of this entire system, because when this happens than we can move on to real answers. I don’t care if you think this is totally negative, it is reality and until it is acknowledged it can never be properly acted on in regard to the real change that is not merely cosmetic which we all desire (I hope).
For a graphic view of how the Israel deliberately targets Palestinian children, and it consequences, view the video “A Story of a War” at:
link to youtube.com
As an example of what can be achieved (and since we’re talking about Ireland) I’d like to note this lovely article about Rory McIlroy in the Times today:
link to nytimes.com
I don’t think you have to worry about this issue at all. You guys believe anyway that these kids will be model citizens of the secular and democratic one state that is inevitable. So obviously, they will turn out being ok instead of what Travers predicts.
completely unlike those little jewels screaming ‘death to arabs’ on jerusalem day, no doubt.
I never claimed the “little jewels” are going to be great citizens in the one state. It is your claim. I guess you just need to say some magic words that I am not familiar with and all the extremists will become Jeffersonian democrats.
To put it a little more bluntly, I hope you realize that supporting the one state solution is inconsistent with accepting Travers’ predictions.
hey, show me 2 states and i’ll support them eee. it’s isn’t palestine gobbling up the remains, it’s that pesky little zionistista empire you support day in and day out. do i support one state over transfer/ethnic cleansing or genocide? you bet i do. yer barkin’ up the wrong tree if you want to divert this into a ‘it’s the one staters fault’ routine. go find yourself another sucker.
One State over the course of many many years. The 2SS is dead.
The Palestine papers have shown the depths of appeasement the PA was willing to go.
Hamas is a non-issue. Israel is at war with the occupied – the Palestinians themselves. It does not matter what leadership arises. Clearly, the PA was held in as much contempt by Israel as is Hamas.
Only partisan hacks like the anti-mascot want to keep this delusion alive because while Palestinians waste time, Israel is still colonizing.
Annie,
You will see two states soon enough. But you won’t support it. You will yell “bantustans” and “collaborators”.
You will yell “bantustans”
i will if it’s a bantustan instead of a state.
You will see two states soon enough
when mr genie with his crystal ball? what’s your definition of ‘soon’? do you know something i don’t?
eeek, you are an expert at attributing views to people who haven’t said any such thing. You are arguing with your own weird ideas, not anybody here. But then, narcissism is a trait of self-obsessed apologists for Israel. And it allows you to claim victory over yourself, while completely avoiding the topic. Well done. Promotion must be imminent.
One man’s bantustan is another woman’s state.
If the Palestinians accept it, why would you yell anything?
i asked you first, now you answer my question and then i’ll answer yours.
Palestinians live under apartheid in the territories. And the PA is by definition a collaborator.
The Palestine Papers have proved that.
And the reaction from the Palestinian public is enough proof. What evidence do you have that the Palestinian people think differently of the PA? None.
Typical of you, eee. Pain doesn’t count unless its Jewish pain. No need to worry about any of this unless it redounds negatively on Jews, right?
Tree,
Of course. Why do I need to worry about the Palestinians when there are the people on Mondoweiss to worry about them? You guys write about them, and try sailing to them and flying to them, so really, they do not need anything else.
The 1993 Grawemeyer Award for Ideas Improving World Order was given for Donald Harman Akenson’s: “God’s Peoples: Covenant and Land in South Africa, Israel and Ulster”
Seeing the similarities of the “covenental” mindset of the three groups he was optimistic for two but not the third (guess which). He said the following in 1993:
The only smart thing the zionist ever did was pick a relatively small area and defenseless population’s land to confiscate.
Anywhere else and they would all be long dead and gone.
Exactly.
The smartest thing we did was pick enemies like you.
ee-aye, you just can’t suppress the bully in you, like your government. Wanna sound like a mobster in the movies, do we? Weeeeah
Thank you for proving my point.
So let me get this straight. The Zionists aren’t here to deny that they target children… and not merely to justify that they target children… but the Zionists are bragging that they target children? Because that proves how “smart” they are?
Kids, this is the part of Israel they don’t show you on the Birthright tour.
Anywhere else and they would all be long dead and gone.
i don’t think it was so smart, it doesn’t take brains to be an armed to the teeth bully. zionist probably thought it would be a since. they radically underestimated the palestinian sumud. anywhere else and they would all be long dead and gone, but not palestine. not in the least. and the global community is just starting to wake up to the crimes against humanity taking place all these decades while we were lulled into silence by myths, propaganda, intimidation and bullying. those days are over for israel. no more ‘in the cover of darkness’ for israel. we’re armed with pens, computers, video cameras, cell phones and TRUTH.
eee: The smartest thing we did was pick enemies like you.
you must be quaking in your boots little man. humping the death of a 4 year old from 1929 to get yer hasbara on today eh? face it hot shot, you wouldn’t need to be here if you’d been smart. you support war criminals, how smart is that?
Annie,
Excuse me. It is you that support war criminals. You supported the flotilla to the Hamas controlled Gaza territory. You are just picking on Israel because you can get no traction with your BS in the US. But keep trying.
Here is an answer for you eee, nothing will suffice except the complete destruction of Zionism – whether there is a one state or a two state is immaterial. As far as the USA is concerned and all of the cadre of dominant nations, nothing will suffice except the complete destruction of the current global system. That is the point and that should be the goal, period. Both the cradle and superstructure do not deserve to exist.
Bringing food and medicine to children is a war crime? But not, you know, SETTING THOSE CHILDREN ON FIRE with white phosphorous?
You are just picking on Israel because you can get no traction with your BS in the US.
excuse me? what are you talking about. there’s lots of action here. 80% of obama voters support getting tough w/israel according to the last zogby poll.
It is you that support war criminals. You supported the flotilla to the Hamas controlled Gaza territory.
so you’re a supproter of collective punishment eh. funny because the WB voted for them too. you’re a fool, a total sucker for an apartheid government. you’re the frier eee. a pathetic one at that. supporting palestine and gaza is not support for hamas’s militia. you on the other hand support the idf, war criminals.
face it hot shot, you wouldn’t need to be here if you’d been smart
Or you could support yourself, freier.
You obviously do not understand what a freier is. According to your logic, you are the freier for supporting me.
Hello eee,
You said:
“you are the freier for supporting me”
I take it you refer to you (USA readers of Mondoweiss) and me (yourself and your Israeli Zionist compatriots).
Now take a big breath and think if you are really doing Israel a favour by being manoeuvred into owning up just how much you disparage and despise your principal benefactor, USA public.
eeeinstein,
fully aware what freier means. not my logic. but i think congress is. and the mass of jews who swallowed zionism whole in a 16th c-style groupthink without one idea, one conception, one simple understanding of what the consequence would be. young people (with brains) like jack ross understood it enough to search out its genesis and write a book about it. you’re in lemmings land. monkey see. monkey do.
eeeinstein! why didn’t i think of that?
Col Travers point was quite explicit. Israel does not want a peaceful settlement and their tactics in the WB and Gaza are calculated. I would add that it goes a little deeper than that. Israel knows that it cannot win a struggle with the Palestinians if they unified in non-violence. They need Palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists in order to gain sympathy abroad. I am sure these Israelis that are torturing children see this as a good long term investment. They long for the day when one of their subjects succeed in killing a Jew.
This may sound cynical, but I think it has some truth in it. Remember, Israel is ruled by former military commanders — it is not at all uncommon for commanders to sacrifice some of their own troops for the greater good. Since Israel is a militarized society, it is only reasonable to expect the military mind to sacrifice a few civilians in exchange for better public relations in Europe.
This why the Palestinian nonviolent resistance is going to be so difficult. Besides direct provocation of this kind there are numerous ways for the Israelis to stage false flag operations.
“Well it wasn’t extreme when I lived in Israel 25 years ago. It is now.”
Even 30-40 years ago — CLOSER TO THE HOLOCAUST — and when Israel was much more militarily vulnerable than now — totally dominant now — Israel would not act like it does today — like it did when a couple of uniformed soldiers on duty were grabbed POW off the Lebanese border and one off Gaza — massively bombing both neighbors.
IT IS NOT THE HOLOCAUST or any unreal fear caused by same. I think it is Israel’s growing guilty conscience. The worse Israel acts the more it wants to hide from its acts — the more massively Israel attacks any entity who reminds it it is not the upstanding, civilized, respectable nation it longs so desperately to think it is — sort of like a Mafia boss who lately wants respectability too. Any reminder of Israel’s true behavior towards its neighbors brings on hysterical repression.
The worse Israel acts — the worse its conscience — the worse its conscience the worse it acts — on and on.
Or something like that — I may not have it pinned down perfectly — but the further Israel gets from the Holocaust the crazier its behavior — must be something else.
Dennis says:
The worse Israel acts the more it wants to hide from its acts
That definitely contributes to the psychological state of the Israeli citizen who votes for the the far right parties. The leaders on the other hand know exactly what they are doing. We do not need to speculate on their psychological state, they are proven psychopaths that know how to manipulate their sheep.
Israel is the next Holocaust. Or more accurately, they are the next Holocaust’s perpetrators.
It’s just that the next Holocaust won’t target Jews. They’re on the other end of the genocide-making this time around.
Chaos,
I am convinced that the Israel is slowly acquiring a crowd psychosis stage where preventing deliberate and large scale deaths of Arabs will be impossible.
>> I am convinced that the Israel is slowly acquiring a crowd psychosis stage where preventing deliberate and large scale deaths of Arabs will be impossible.
Should that point be reached, the “humanist” Zio-supremacists will “hold their noses” while their hardier co-collectivists undertake the the “necessary” (or “required” evil) dirty work.
To paraphrase: “I cannot consistently say that ‘the deliberate and large scale deaths of Arabs is never necessary’.”
unfortunately, it’s going to take israel becoming a complete crowd psychosis country, if i can say it that way, before u.s. jews will wake up from their slumber…or until the churches here realize they are backing commies.
it’s russian peasants, and ancient orientalist ideas of conquest. I don’t want to give a speech or write an essay. but there are two massive main strains in russian culture, one high-minded and brilliant, culturally capable beyond all measure, and the other runs like the red mafiya, an underworld mentality so deep and treacherous, so brutal, that what it’s capable of is unbelievable at times. (putin’s brilliance was in understanding both and not judging them. gave him the power to manage them.)
by allowing the latter behavior, israel has changed its culture. now that culture is rewiring people’s brains. israel is little odessa, usa. good luck undoing that. won’t happen until american jews become ashamed.
(getting a new keyboard soon, btw. caps only working for number row.)
Won’t happen even after that happens, MRW. Assuming that happens at all on a large scale and I’m decidedly not optimistic that Jewish American culture will stop blindly supporting Israel as a mainstream concept. Israelis look down on American Jews as their lieutenants. American Jews will always be the inferior officers of any Israeli. You can hear it in the way wondering jew, eee and jon talk about the US and the diaspora generally. Israelis consider themselves the ubermensch Jews, and American Jews are taught to aspire to that from very early on.
anybody know what happened with this scandal?
link to occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com
01.11.10 – 10:59 Bethlehem – PNN – Palestinian Minister of Prisoner Affairs Issa Qaraqa’ said he has uncovered a new scandal in the treatment of child prisoners by Israeli soldiers, in which Israeli soldiers urinated on two 13-year-old boys and held them naked in a bathroom for two days.
Qaraqa’ said that he had contacted a lawyer on behalf of two detained children, Muhammad Tariq Abd al-Latif Mukhaymar and Muhammad Nasir Ali Radwan, both 13 and from Beit Awar. They were detained last July, when they were in the sixth grade.
Mukhaymar said that border guards arrested him and Radwan near the wall, on Street Number 443 near Beit Awar, beat them severely, bound their hands, blindfolded them, and transported them to the nearby settlement of Binyamin.
He said the soldiers then pushed them into a bathroom and forced them to take off their clothes. They said they were left naked in the bathroom for two days without food or water and that the soldiers set the air conditioning unit to blow cold air for the duration.
Mukhaymar said he was very thirsty and had to drink the toilet water and suffered from severe chills, and every time he and Radwan tried to sleep, the soldiers came into wake them up.
He said the worst thing that happened, however, was that when the soldiers came in they didn’t relieve themselves in the toilet, but urinated on the boys’ heads and faces instead. The soldiers then mocked and laughed at them while one took pictures.
After the two days in this cruel condition, said Mukhaymar, they were led into Binyamin settlement and interrogated from 10 p.m. until 3 a.m., then taken to Ofer Military Camp. They remained there for three months, then were transported to the youth prison in Rimonim. They were never arraigned in court.
Minister Qaraqa’ said, “The base inhumanity of the occupation soldiers has been on the rise lately. The Ministry of Prisoners will present a complaint against the Israeli soldiers that committed this abomination.”
A NICE LITTLE FILM: Amreeka, 2009, PG-13, 96 minutes [Streaming from Netflix until 7/12/11, 3:00 am EDST tonight]
Eager to provide a better future for her son, Fadi (Melkar Muallem), divorcée Muna Farah (Nisreen Faour) leaves her Palestinian homeland and takes up residence in rural Illinois — just in time to encounter the domestic repercussions of America’s disastrous war in Iraq. Now, the duo must reinvent their lives with some help from Muna’s sister, Raghda (Hiam Abbass), and brother-in-law, Nabeel (Yussuf Abu-Warda). Cherien Dabis writes and directs.
Availability: Streaming and DVD (Streaming until 7/12/11)
NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
Amreeka Trailer (VIDEO, 02:18) – link to youtube.com
The Amreeka Interviews – link to youtube.com
It is the following quote from Col. Travers that I found most interesting:
“If this were done to Irish children, we would have had a conflagration that would have forced a Republic of Ireland intervention, which would have imposed an American intervention– if the Irish Diaspora had any influence.”
I’m not sure what he meant to communicate by this, other than this sort of treatment of children would have been viewed as an intolerable outrage that would have led to serious consequences both the the British Isles and the Irish Diaspora.
Is Travers implying that he is puzzled by what he sees as the “relatively muted” outrage expressed by Palestinian adults? By the muted outrage by Arabs/Muslims generally? He seems to be suggesting that both Palestinians as well as non-Palestinians (except perhaps Israelis) should be protesting the terrorizing of Palestinian children much more vigorously…(if he is, I totally agree with him. Too little attention has been given by world media to this issue and too much to the “peace process.”)
“I am saying that it is deliberate. Someone made a conscious decision, peace is not in our interest. Control and instability are best for business. Managed instability is in their long term best interest.”
I have heard Art Gish say very similar things when he was still with us.
UNICEF monitors escalation in Israeli attacks on Palestinian children
link to occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com
escalation-in-israeli-attacks-on-palestinian-children/
Israeli children attacking Palestinians. Witness demands that the Israeli soldiers stop these Israeli children (believe all illegal settlers) from throwing rocks. The Israeli soldiers do nothing to stop them.
link to youtube.com
And remember this
Israeli Attack on Palestinian Family on Gaza Beach
Illegal settlers beat witnesses as well as hit Palestinian children
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
that children throwing rock video is surreal. the soldiers are unwilling to confronting the stone wielding children .
Israeli settler hit Palestinian child. Did not stop
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
I can trump this:
link to youtube.com
You really need to find more pure examples. Two copies of a video in which a member of an attacking mob of Palestinians was hit, and Eva’s video in which a driver was running over a guy who had just stabbed the driver’s wife right in front of him. Surely you can find unambiguous videos, where there was no fault on the part of the Palestinians. Where they weren’t trying to breech a military barrier, or attack someone when or just before they were hit, or shot, etc. by the Israeli.
These videos generate outrage here, where most people are inclined to believe the worst of Israelis (no benefit of the doubt) and forgive anything the Palestinians did. They don’t generate much outrage among people who are informed of the facts and not pre-disposed against Israel.
Surely you can find unambiguous videos, where there was no fault on the part of the Palestinians.
you’re right about that.
a member of an attacking mob of Palestinians
just curious fred, would you describe these children as members of an attacking mob of Jews?
if you would, please demonstrate that for us.
and if an adult palestinian used their car as a weapon of defense against the children in this video would you then think it disqualified the video as an example of palestinian aggression?
They don’t generate much outrage among people who are informed of the facts
would you be speaking of yourself here along with other supporters if israel?
what kind of ‘facts’ can you use to deflect from the pain of this video kathleen posted earlier?
speaking of not being outraged due to being pre-disposed what do you think of Ben-Ami’s article In the Israeli aquarium, humanist Judaism is a dead fish, about the rabbi’s gentile baby-killing handbook.
Assuming they are Israelis, and that the ones who are throwing unidentified objects at unidentified targets are throwing hard heavy objects at people, I would call them members of an attacking mob of Israelis. If an adult Palestinian accidentally hit one of the attackers and was in danger of being pulled out of the car and beaten to death if he stopped I certainly would say it disqualified the video as an example of Palestinian aggression. As I said, much of the outrage here would not be generated if anyone were willing to give an Israeli the benefit of the doubt. Israelis are human, and humans are fallible, quite capable of swerving to avoid hitting one person and accidentally hitting another. I don’t automatically assume that every injury caused by a human was intended.
There are real examples of aggression from both sides, neither side needs to play up incidents which only look like aggression (by the side they are trying to depict as aggressive) if you don’t look at the context. If I was trying to show aggression by the Palestinians, I would point to any number of suicide bombings against civilian targets and other terrorist attacks against civilian targets. If I was trying to show aggression by Israelis, I would show the video you just showed, or point to the Hebron massacre (the one by the settler in 1994, not the one by the Arabs against the Jews in 1929).
I am speaking of people who are neutral or who are biased in favor of Israel.
I am not sure what you mean by “deflect from the pain”.
Your video is a much more cogent example in that innocent people were killed and injured. However, there are still mitigating factors in the video you posted. The deaths were probably caused by previously fired (before the family got there) unexploded ordinance in the sand. Which were fired at Palestinians who (unlike the family in the video) use the area as a location from which to fire at Israelis, not as a recreation area. The shelling from Israel near the time of the explosion was aimed at Qassam rocket launchers 250 yards away.
When innocents are caught in a crossfire it is a tragedy. It is also typical of armed conflict. Not a single war in history has been fought without civilian deaths on both sides. If “no civilians can be killed in the crossfire” were the standard for judging a society, then the American Civil War couldn’t have been fought and England would have had to surrender to the Germans in WWII, or be evil killers of German civilians.
To me, the important point is whether a people at war try to minimize civilian casualties, or to target civilians. Which seems to be a pretty common factor in the way people process deaths and injuries when they happen to people other than themselves and their friends and families. We feel outrage for the murder of innocent people. Less outrage, but still some, over the reckless deaths of innocent people. Still less over negligent deaths. Still less over purely accidental deaths. Still less over the accidental deaths or injuries of people we perceive as being responsible for their own injuries. More people would be outraged by a lawsuit by a burglar who falls through a skylight and ends up paralyzed than by the burglar ending up paralyzed.
One thing guaranteed to outrage people is being told that a death was murder, then finding out they were deceived.
c Israelis are human, and humans are fallible, quite capable of swerving to avoid hitting one person and accidentally hitting another. I don’t automatically assume that every injury caused by a human was intended.
In the case of Israelis, it’s a bit like assuming the rapist didn’t intend to impregnate his victim in the act of raping her.
You could, but you’d have to go back 4 or 5 years because the Palestinians stopped duicide bombings 5 or 5 years ago, after Hamas called an end to them.
Yes, in your case, you’d have to point to a massacre 82 years ago, whereas we could point you to the massacre 3 years ago under Cast Lead, or the massacre a few yers ealier in 2006.
Yes Fred, the rapist could show evidence of wounds the victim inflicted on him as he raped her – scratches to his face, a bloodshot eye, maybe a pbald patch from where his hair was pulled.
As Chris Rock once said, the way to stop black Americans being killed by stray bullets would be to make bullets outrageously expensive.
That’s like arguing that the important point is whether a woman being raped is made to suffer more than she needs to in order for the rapist to complete his assault.
The other point worth considering is whether the rape needs to take place at all. Similarly, do the Israeli need to be in the occupied territories, demolishing Palestinian homes, evicting them rom their homes, stealing their land and building illegal settlements or not?
Ok, that’s it. Too many ridiculous comparisons of Israel to rapists. I’m not bothering with you anymore. You are too far from reality to be worth my time to read your posts. Back in the oldendays of usenet, we had these nifty things called “killfiles” that would let us automatically block posts from trolls and other people who weren’t worth bothering with. I’m going to have to ignore you the hard way, by just skipping your posts. Pity.
You’re right Fred, what Israel is doing to Palestine is much worse than rape.
Yes,it woudl be handy to blck trolls like you, but it’s much more useful to expose what a pathogical liar you are for the benfit of those who don;t comment here.
Don’t you worry Fred. I’ll be watching and waiting and debunking all your BS, bit by bit.
You can ignore me all you like, but it doesn’t matter. I’ll be here.
Would you under those circumstances? A mob out for your blood that had already attacked you and could easily overpower and kill you if you stopped?
A man comes around a blind corner down a hill, gets attacked by a mob throwing stones. He swerves to avoid hitting one (carefully edited out of the beginning of the swerve, but you can see the shirtless boy standing in the road on the left when the camera pans that way a second later), and runs right into another one, who is in the middle of the road, trying to throw rocks through his windshield. When you see a person (or even a cat or dog) in front of you, you instinctively swerve to avoid him. Lots of people get into accidents because of that. To avoid hitting what is in front of you you react without having time to look to see what is on the side of you.
Then, rather than stopping, and being pulled out of the car and beaten to death along with his son, he does what any sane person would do, he drives off without hitting anyone he can avoid. If you had a mob throwing rocks at your car and had accidentally hit one, would you stick around? I sure as hell wouldn’t. I’d get to safety then let the cops know what had happened. Especially since there were plenty of people around who could take care of the kid and get him medical help.
Face it, if this were an Arab driver in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood being attacked with rocks, accidentally hitting one of the mob, then driving off, none of you would have the slightest objection.
When did that last happen Fred?
Yes,m he reverses over the guy he’s hit a few times to say sorry and then drves off, minding his own business, and retuning to the house he stole or built on the land he took from a Palestinian.
Thos epoor settlers, living in illegal settlements pn lansd that was stolen from Palestinians, just want to be left alone.
When did what last happen? An Israeli pulled out of his vehicle and beaten by a Palestinian mob?
About 3 weeks ago, assuming there hasn’t been another incident like that since.
link to jpost.com
That was just for being a Jew driving in Issawiya (in East Jerusalem).
Being pulled out of a vehicle and beaten happens in bad neighborhoods in America (carjackings, Reginald Denny beating). It can certainly happen in Israel. I don’t keep records of specific incidents though.
Jew murdered in a riot after a gentile was accidentally killed by a car driven by a Jew? It has happened in America:
link to en.wikipedia.org
And in London, a Jew pulled out of car and beaten:
link to antisemitism.org.il
As for Israelis murdered by Palestinian mobs.
link to en.wikipedia.org
That’s in about 5 minutes googling.
Are you that intellectually dishonest that you can’t admit that a Jew who is attacked by multiple Palestinian assailants immediately upon rounding a corner in his car has a legitimate fear for his life and the life of his passenger (son) if he places himself at the mercy of those same assailants after hitting one with his car (albeit accidentally)?
Also, we’re talking about two different videos. The “surrounded by a mob” video he didn’t reverse over the kid. He just drove away from the mob.
In the video where an Israeli reversed over a Palestinian, it was because the Palestinian had just stabbed/tried to kill the Israeli’s wife. If the Palestinian from that one died, I would say voluntary manslaughter charges would be appropriate (well, under American law, I don’t know the equivalent Israeli law).
As for the settlements. That’s an appropriate subject for peace talks to deal with, not for attacks on civilians.
No, that was because Israel illegalyl occupying East Jerusalem evicting palestinaisn fro their homes, demolishing theuir houses and killing them.
20 years ago. Right.
While Israel were busily murdering 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza.
Not just Israelis, but IDF, after the IDF has mowed down Palestaking in non violent protests.
And a lifetime of denial. On all of these occasions (except the Brookly incident) , you have completely ignored the fact that Israel incited the incident by their own violence.
Are you that intellectually dishonest that you can’t admit that Israel is ilelgallyu and beligerelyntly occuping Palestinian territory, stealing Palestinian land, demolishing Paletinian homes and evicting Palestinians?
Whjat is it with your maniacs? Do you go around punching people in the face and then wait for them to say thank you?
Oh forgive me. Give that driver the Nobel Peace Prize.
Absolute rubbish. You complani thatthe video was edited, yet you’re completely making up a story.
Rubbish. The settlers attack civilians all the time. The occupation is there to proetc and enable the settlements. It’s one and the same.
The occupation is an act of war and a war crime.
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
September 29, 2000 – Present
124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,463 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
Chart showing that about 12 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children.
“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”
link to ifamericansknew.org
Interesting chart. Also interesting to read the list of actual names and circumstances of deaths. I read all the Israeli deaths from 2000-2002, looking for a single one that wasn’t flat our deliberate murder. Didn’t find one. Too depressing to read 2003-2011.
I read a lot of the Palestinian death notices for the same period. Take out the ones who were killed while attacking Israelis, or accidentally killed in a military action that didn’t target them specifically (missed the target or they were too close to the target), and I am not sure the remainder is more than the number of Israeli children deliberately murdered by Palestinians.
Also, “died because Israel wouldn’t let her in for medical treatment” shouldn’t count. Israel can choose to let people into the country for medical treatment, but it isn’t obligated to do so, anymore than Canada or the U.S. is. Look up Wafa Biss if you want to know why Israel is wary of Palestinians seeking medical treatment in Israel.
The problem is that the charts are sort of using two different definitions of “children”. One, in the sense of “anyone under 18″, when you are counting deaths. The other in the sense of “innocent non-combatants”, when you are trying to build outrage against Israel. A 17 year old Hamas attempted suicide bomber fits under the “under 18″ definition, but if Israel killed 500 of them how much outrage would you get saying “Israel killed 500 17-year old attempted suicide bombers”? OTOH, how much outrage would you get (same circumstances) saying “Israel killed 500 Palestinian children”.
In short, please don’t inflate the number of children (innocent non-combatants) killed by mixing in terrorists who happened to be under 18.
shorter fred “take out this and take out that and this and this doesn’t count either and israel doesn’t do murder”
impressive/not.
I didn’t say Israel, or rather individual Israelis, have never murdered any Palestinians. Quite the contrary. I will positively state that some Israelis have murdered Palestinians. I merely contend that Israel doesn’t have a policy of murdering Palestinians. Whereas Hamas, and other Palestinian terrorist groups do have a policy of murdering Israelis. Not merely killing them in military actions, but murder.
As I said, I would like to know how many of the cited 1463 deaths of “children” can be fairly classified as murder, as opposed to crossfire casualties in fighting, child soldiers killed while attacking, etc.
Here’s a handy test for whether it is murder. If Palestinians killed Israelis under the same circumstances, would you call that murder? I would call an Israeli suicide bombing of a Palestinian civilian target murder (assuming people died, of course, not counting the suicide bomber).
I’d also like to know how many of the cited 124 Israeli “children” killed were not murdered. Same test. If it was a Palestinian killed under those circumstances, would you call it murder?
Roll reversal when deciding these things is a great way to try to eliminate bias in your own intellectual positions. Of course, it only works if you can set aside the knowledge that it is your favored side you are judging, not your disfavored side.
You could, but you’d be wrong.
Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF) told Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz) that:
The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.
This explains why Israel kills so many civilians.
Pretty much all of them, given that all the fighting has taken place on occupied territory.
A role reversal would require Israel to be occupied by Palestinians, and Israeli homes to be demolished, Israelis to be evicted, and ethnically cleansed.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The IDF not only has an explicit policy for targeting civilians, it quite obviously also has a specific policy for killing children. In Israel, it is entirely and explicitly legal to shoot a 13-year-old girl who clearly poses no threat and then to proceed to shoot her again at least twice to make sure that she’s dead.
In the trial it was made clear – this was one of the winning points for the defense – that this is common practice.
If that’s not a policy, then what is?
So, it is U.S. policy that black men should murder their wives and waiters? Not just can, but should. Or is it just black professional athletes? Black professional athletes who later took up acting? Or could it be that the fact that murderers (like OJ Simpson) are sometimes found not guilty reflects an imperfect system of courts rather than actual government policy?
Or maybe they were prepared to give this $#@& the benefit of the doubt (which they shouldn’t have) because Palestinians have used children that young to carry bombs in their backpacks. Or because they believed that he believed her to be a threat. I don’t believe that he believed that, but they might have.
Also, if anything, the “policy” here would be “assume anyone in the ‘no man’s’ zone is there to plant bombs or otherwise attack”. One of the hazards of using child soldiers in civilian clothing is that the other side is liable to mistake your child non-soldiers in civilian clothing for your child soldiers in civilian clothing, particularly in places where everyone is forbidden to go.
In any case, best example I’ve seen here. First one I would describe as a clear case of murder.
Is that why you endorse the murder of Palestinian children, Fred? Because we need to assume each and every Palestinian is an “anti-Jewish” terrorist unless proven otherwise?
“Or maybe they were prepared to give this $#@& the benefit of the doubt”
You did read the part where they didn’t even charge him with any homicide-related offense? ‘Improper use of a weapon’ or somesuch was the very worst they even tried to stick to him – failing, of course.
You also seem to have missed the part where this guy openly admitted shooting the girl and ‘confirming the kill’, which by the way blows your asinine comparison to OJ Simpson – who denied having killed his wife – to smithereens?
They didn’t give anybody the ‘benefit of doubt’ about the actual deed. Everybody involved – the prosecution, the defense, the judges – openly acknowledged that this ‘Captain R’ had shot a 13-year-old girl who did not and could not pose an immediate threat, and then proceeded to shoot her repeatedly while she was lying helpless on the ground. This was not in dispute.
“One of the hazards of using child soldiers in civilian clothing is that the other side is liable to mistake your child non-soldiers in civilian clothing for your child soldiers in civilian clothing, particularly in places where everyone is forbidden to go.”
Ah, so now, in contrast to denying that Israel has child-murder policies, you’re trying to justify them. I guess we’re finished here. That went more quickly than I expected.
You mena the ones that weer kileld while lying asleep in their beds Fred, por the ones who happened to be stending underneath a bomb as it was dropped on them?
Yes, 500 and 1000 lb bmbs don’t target anyone specifically, just city blocks.
I agree Fred. Nor should rape count unless the rapist reaches orgasm.
Yes, let Ferd come up with his imaginary numbers and then extrapolate them further, because poor Fred has a hard time admitting that the IDF practically kills children for sport. Let’s just pretend they are all suicide bobers, or potential suicide bombers.
Yes, it’s upsets Fred’s digestion, plese don’t do that annie.
I’m not sure how to put it more clearly. When I say the ones who died while attacking Israel, I mean the ones who were, at the time of the injuries that caused their deaths, performing an attack on Israel. Planting bombs, shooting at Israelis, trying to get past a checkpoint while carrying a bomb. That sort of thing.
I think 500 lb and 1000 lb bombs are more building size than city block size actually.
The Palestinians who died because Israel wouldn’t let them in for treatment (unless Israel was the cause of their needing treatment) died from their ailments, they were not killed by Israel. If a hospital refuses to perform a transplant on you for free, that’s not murder, even if you die as a result. Israel is under no obligation to let Palestinians into Israel for medical treatment. Should we count every Israeli child who died from disease or injury unrelated to Palestinians as having been killed by Palestinians because the Palestinians don’t provide them with medical care? Your rape analogy is not even a straw man, it is a complete non-sequitur.
I’m sorry if you thought I was trying to claim 500 as actual numbers. It was a hypothetical example. I thought that was clear from context.
As for why you shouldn’t try to deceive by using misleading descriptions. I am concerned that ignorant people will think that your deceptive descriptions are real. Contrariwise, you should be concerned about what people will think when they find out that you have mislead them. I say “mislead” rather than “lied to” because the statistics you quote are technically true, but deliberately create a false impression in the listener.
Attacking Israelis in the occupied territories is not an attack on Israel.
They have a kill radius of 300 feet or more. How many building’s do you knwo are that large?
Denying treatment to those suffering from life threatening ailments is murder.
Israel destroys Palestinian hospitals, leaving the Palestinian no choice but to use Israeli hosptals.
Since when have any Palestinians refused medical care to Isrealis? NEVER>
It is a perfect analogy. Everythign that takes place occurs under the relentless paramters fo occupaiton, which is a war crime. There is no seperating what takes place every day from occupation – itself, an act of violence.
I don’t misled people – after all, I’m not a Zionist, hence I have no need to.
Zionism is a pox on humanity and lies are necessary to sell it to the public and to defend it.
The case of 10 year old girl Abir Aramin should be a front page post. She was murdered in 2007 by the vile Israeli border police, a rubber bullet tore the back of Abir’s head off and now the israeli supreme court has rejected a petition to put her murderers on trial.
link to richardsilverstein.com
thanks ddi. i read about this today on kate’s list. it breaks my heart. i didn’t say anything. i thought about commenting but commented on the digging in ej instead. but i read about her and thought about her right before posting. i should have said something. they don’t punish isralei killers. they have no thought to killing palestinian children. look at her beautiful face. her poor parents. what a horrible loss. her father is a co-founder of the Israeli-Palestinian NGO Combatants for Peace. i can’t believe what these people go thru. constantly.
ddi…The below article by Nurit Peled says it all !!!
*****
IDF Soldiers Never Go to Jail for Killing Palestinian. Never.
The Murder of Abir Aramin, Nine Years Old
By NURIT PELED-ELHANAN
“On a Tuesday afternoon, the 16th of January, an Israeli soldier shot his nine year old daughter, Abir, in the head as she was leaving school to go home. The soldier will not spend an hour in jail. In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. Never. It does not matter whether the Arabs are young or old, real or potential terrorists, peaceful demonstrators or stone throwers. The army has not conducted an inquiry in Abir Aramin’s death. The police and the courts have questioned no one except for Abir’s sister, who was holding her hand while she was falling. The young sister was asked time and again how many meters were they from the school gate, from the kiosk, from the jeep.
There was hardly any investigation except for a private one by Bassam and his friends who know exactly who the killer is. But as far as the Israeli Defense Forces are concerned, the shooting did not happen. The army’s official account of her death is that she might have been hit by a stone that one of her classmates was throwing “at our forces.” That in the face of the finding of a senior pathologist, who worked for many years in an institute of forensic medicine.
One of the allegations against the evaders is that they have stopped believing in “values” such as sacrifice. Whose sacrifice, exactly? On what altar? To what god?
The soldiers of Israel are called upon to sacrifice children, parents, volunteers, and sometimes themselves on the altar of the megalomania of the insolent and corrupt leaders of the state of Israel, who have succeeded in converting this whole country into an altar on which they sacrifice other people’s children to the god of death. And no one is guilty of their deaths; no one is ever punished for the murder of a Palestinian child. The state takes care of those who serve it, sometimes.”
www.counterpunch.org/peled08082007.html
There were at least two pathologists involved at the autopsy. The one conducting it, who ruled out a rubber bullet because the size of the injury was too big to be caused by a rubber bullet (too big a radius I guess, rather than too much damage), but did not rule out a stun grenade blast or a thrown rock. And a pathologist paid by the girl’s family, who observed the autopsy and said that a rubber bullet was more likely, but that a thrown stone was possible.
link to independent.co.uk
BTW, counterpunch? Wouldn’t David Duke, or a KKK website be a more objective source of news about Israel?
You’re comparing Counterpunch to David Duke? Hahaha, you shoudl be in comedy Fred.
He’s Hasbara stupid, Shingo.
No, she had a wound that did not penetrate her head. Nothing tore the back of her head off. The autopsy ruled out rubber bullets. Though it didn’t rule out a blast from a stun-grenade or a thrown rock as the cause of her injuries.
What I find fascinating about your citation is that the line “bullet tore the back of her head off” links to an article on the same website (don’t know if it was by the same author) and that article says it was a stun grenade, and doesn’t say anything about anything tearing the back of her head off. How reliable is a reporter who puts links in his articles to other articles that contradict the text used for the link itself?
Impressive prose, though, “murdered by the vile Israeli border police”. I’m not sure I could come up with a more loaded phrase if I tried.
You know, some day some glib history book is going to draw a morbid parallel about Jews who supported what Israel did to the Palestinians vis-a-vis what Germany did to Jews.
Lets not forget this video, I believe that victim was under age:
link to youtube.com
I doubt that would have happened had Hamas recognized Israel.
Right Witty?
Witty doesn’t care about this! I’ll bet he never even opened up this article at all. That’s the self-styled “humanist” for you. Blame Hamas!
I’m not sure whether you realize it, but that video is not a good example for what you are trying to show. The man who is being run over had just stabbed the wife of the man in the car, in an attempt to murder her.
Now, revenge is not a valid reason for running someone over, so if the threat was gone then the man in the car should probably be criminally charged, but do you really want to say that a man attacking his wife’s attempted murderer is a legitimate example of “Israel oppressing the Palestinians”? Sorry, but this kind of thing can happen anywhere. Most men would want to kill you if you stabbed their wives right in front of them. Some men would actually try to do so. That doesn’t say “bad Israeli” that says “within the range of normal human (though criminal) behavior”.
Also note that despite the circumstances, other Israelis charged the car and pulled the keys.
fred, it is a rather infamous video so i imagine most people recall the circumstances. also your post might have more impact if you didn’t make claims you can’t back up (like asserting he was trying to murder her, the reports said the stab wounds were very light and the person could have been mentally deranged or driven to the point of madness).
i agree with you tho, it probably isn’t a great example. any person might naturally become enraged by someone attacking their loved one albeit running over someone several times with a car is not an average response.
Uh, no. He stabbed her in the throat. And stabbed the store owner in the back of the head. He was armed with an axe as well as the knife.
link to vosizneias.com
If you are stabbing someone in the throat. You are trying to murder them. There is no such thing as “just a friendly stabbing in the throat” or “just a harmless little throat stabbing”.
If the wounds are light, after you stab someone in the throat, that is because you were unsuccessful at trying to murder them, not for lack of trying. After getting shot by the gas station security guard, the terrorist ran down the road, then tried to attack some soldiers with the knife, yelling “Allahu Akbar”. I really wish these terrorists would stop blaming God for their actions.
Christ, I’m not surprised the Israeli lost it. Apparently in the last two years he lost 2 of his 3 children. One killed in a truck accident, the other to suicide. Then this murderous terrorist tries to kill his wife.
link to translate.google.com
Still, one of the things I admire about Israel is that they indicted the driver for attempted murder rather than throwing him a parade or naming a school after him. Come to think of it, there is no such crime as attempted manslaughter (in the US at least, not sure about Israel).
I was wrong about one thing though, it wasn’t right in front of the guy. He got there after the attack.
The video may be “rather infamous”, but I never saw it before you posted it.
When did that last happen Fred?
Oh please, you expect us to beleive a right wiong lunatuic web site that refers to the Palestinian as a terrorist? The guy wasn’t even arrested (which would have happened had she been stabbed), and the indictemnet was filed by a private attourney. There’s no evidence any such stabbing was attempted. How woudl he have done it, with the car riving past and the window closed?
You’re a complete and utter dolt Fred.
Aer you some kind of idiot? Read your own source you schmuck. His son was killed in a car accident and his daugher suicided. I guess that was the fault ofthe terrorists right?
They already did that in honor fo the terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel.
“Also note that despite the circumstances, other Israelis charged the car and pulled the keys.”
So, Mr. “Role reversal”: Do you think that if the driver was Palestinian, and the guy on the ground Jewish, that’s what the armed Israeli soldiers would have done?
Two points. Not sure about this, but I read that it was other settlers rather than the actual soldiers who rushed the car (could be wrong on that).
Second, sorry, you missed out the “roll reversal” part. The question is, if an Israeli stabbed a Palestinian woman in the throat, was shot by a Palestinian security guard, then attacked Hamas soldiers, got shot in the leg by the Hamas soldiers, then her Palestinian husband started to repeatedly run him over, what would armed Hamas soldiers have done?
I think they probably would have either let the Palestinian husband keep running over the Israeli terrorist, or finished him off themselves. Then thrown a parade for the husband rather than indicting him for attempted murder (plea bargained down to ag assault).
The measure of one’s humanity isn’t “what do you do when one of theirs is attacking a (at that point) non-threatening one of yours”. Because whether you are civilized or barbarians you shoot him.
It’s “what do you do when one of yours is attacking a (at that point) non-threatening one of theirs”. If the answer is “help the attacker”, you failed (not counting state sanctioned executions after fair trials, like when they executed Eichman). If the answer is “stop the attacker” you passed.
Also what do you do with the guy after the attack is over? Has Hamas ever prosecuted a Palestinian for trying to kill an Israeli? Has Fatah? Not rhetorical, I don’t know the answer. Anyone here know it?
I’m still waiting for proof that anyone was stabbed, or that there was any attempt to stab a woman sitting in a moving Mercades, where none of the windows were open.
Where was she treated? Why didn’t the police arrest the suspect?
Yes they have, During the 2008 ceasefire, Hamas arrested anyone who violated it. What a pitty Israel couldn’t stick to it.
No I didn’t. I just chose to “reverse” one particular “role”. Any more excuses for dodging the question?
If it’s not the same in both cases, you’re a racist. Simple as that.
I would have thought that few experiences damage children, to the point of creating mental illness, than seeing regular maltreatment and humiliation of their parents. Which must be part of the experience of many children in Palestine.
you’ve all said most everything there is to say about the hideousness of targetting children.
but here’s my two cents:
It is undoubtedly true that Palestinian children will be traumatized for life, by the horrible things they have seen and experienced.
But Israel is deliberately educating its children to hate Palestinians and, if the comments section of Haaretz and YNet are any indication, many people in Israel have a very low opinion of Americans.
According to Ilan Pappe, this is an attitude that is taught to Israeli school children.
I’ve listened to a number of Congressional hearings in which Israel lobbyist suggest to the Representatives that US should monitor the textbooks of Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, Afghani, Pakistani school children, to ensure that they are getting proper respect for holocaust, among other things, and that no anti-Israel sentiments are presented — you know, like explaining the history of Nakba.
But no Congressional committee has ever thought to ask about what Israeli school children are being taught, nor have they dared to suggest that Israeli school books should be monitored to ensure that proper respect for Arabs, Muslims, and Christians is adequately discussed.
That Israeli lobbyists persistently demand that the textbooks of other people’s children be monitored is one more manifestation of Israel’s projection pattern: Israelis project onto other states the behavior they are guilty of, and guilty about, in their own state.
I find it amusing (and disgusting) that our regular Zionists won’t get their lily-white hands dirty on this article, so they sent in some new guy to Holocaust-deny and run interference for Israeli crimes against humanity.