This is a joyful night. The liberation of Tripoli and Libya is one of those events we never could have predicted at the beginning of the year, I've been glued to the screen, sharing the triumph of the hopeful people in the streets in north Africa.
And all through the Libyan events, there are parallels to the situation in Palestine. How long can Palestine be the west's exception when it comes to a people's right to self-determination?
--International law. Again and again on Al Jazeera and CNN we hear talk about international law, and the indictments by the Hague last spring of Moammar Gadafhi and his son Saif. On Al Jazeera, commentators are deprecating "rough justice" and saying that the Libyans must turn the Gadafhi's (if the rebels should catch both of them) over to the International Criminal Court. Good.
But what does international law mean for Gazans, who were slaughtered in mass numbers barely 2 years ago, and who were the subject of an exhaustive report by the U.N. Human Rights Council? It has to mean something, if Libya means anything for international law....
--The western coalition. Of course, the west shares in this triumph.
NATO was the air force of the Transitional National Council, Jacky Rowland said on Al Jazeera. Alright-- well what do other western overtures and promises to the Arab world mean? If UN 1973 had such force, what about UN 194 and UN 242, which concretize the rights of Palestinians? When do those Arabs count? When does their loneliness end? When do their long-trampled rights warrant international intervention?
--When Al Jazeera was broadcasting from Benghazi tonight, I heard a man cry out "Obama" in the street celebration. This is a good night for Barack Obama. USC law professor Josh Lockman says the president's decision last March to participate in the air assault has been largely "vindicated."
But the month before he went into Libya on a human-rights pretext, Obama vetoed the UN Security Council resolution against Israeli colonization. And next month, the Obama administration has indicated, it will oppose the Palestinian statehood initiative at the U.N.
When Obama called on the Libyan transitional council to pursue a peaceful "transition to democracy that is just and inclusive for all of the people of Libya" --my emphasis-- how do those words sound to more than 4 million Palestinians who cannot vote for the leaders who rule their lives?
This is a great night for the self-determination of the Libyan people. Yes, and what about the self-determination of their neighbors in Palestine? How long can the west maintain this cruel double standard?
RE: “This is a great night for the self-determination of the Libyan people.” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: It might be. It might not be. Only time will tell.
SEE: NATO’s New Problem: Post-Qaddafi Libya? ~ By Ted Galen Carpenter, 08/18/11
Link – link to nationalinterest.org
P.S. ALSO SEE: Cakewalk? Libya’s Future Far from Guaranteed ~ Paul McGeough, Sydney Morning Herald, 8/22/11
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to commondreams.org
P.P.S. ALSO SEE: Divided Rebels – Many Militiamen Say They Will Not Take Orders From Transitional National Council, By Patrick Cockburn, Counterpunch, 08/22/11
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to counterpunch.org
That’s wrong. It is not at all evident that Gaddafi has lost or will go or that the NATO-led Al Queda terrorists have triumphed.
Well, unless you believe the mainstream media or can see it from your house.
Lizzie Phalen reporting from Libya says otherwise: link to libya360.wordpress.com
As for those scenes from “Tripoli,” they’re fake too, filmed in Doha:
link to youtube.com
Remember the WMDs in Iraq? Remember the babies thrown from incubators in Kuwait? Along with bombing civilians, NATO is waging an all-out media disinformation campaign. And you keep getting fooled again and again and again.
P.P.P.S. ALSO SEE: Avoiding a ‘Mission Accomplished’ moment in Libya, By Stephen M. Walt, 08/22/11
ENTIRE POST – link to walt.foreignpolicy.com
dont worry phil; democracy in the arab world will mean the end of zionism. there is simply no way israel, in it’s current form, will be sustainable when it is surrounded by democratic, modern arab states. the west acted in libya because of the uprisings in tunisia and egypt; the entire narrative of the arab people shifted within a few months and suddenly the west had to be on their side.
as benny morris admitted a few years ago: the walls are closing in for israel. they know they are already constrained to act against lebanon, they have angered the powerful, democratic turks, and pretty soon, they will be limited in their options against gaza. all these things point to a massive amount of pressure on israel as it currently exists.
we are going to see a palestinian tahrir moment, but first, their newly free neighbors must secure their governments as successful democracies.
stay patient. :)
Please, no crocodile tears. Were the people of Libya and their plight EVER mentioned on here till the recent uprising? No. Just like no one cared about the Iraqis under Saddam being butchered and no one cared about Assad and his Dad butchering Syrians etc etc. You only care about in the context how this could negatively impact the US and Israel
Robert Fulford at the National Post says it right.
link to nationalpost.com
yer wrong
Phil, I am sorry, but you are a schmuck. 1300 Libyans were killed today, probably over 40,000 since the “Arab spring” hit Libya. You could care less about these ppl. The only Arabs you care about are those being ‘persecuted’ by Jews.
and i take it the only arabs you feign to care about are those that arent butchered by jews.
@ultra_bravo
Who cares the least about dead Arabs? Zionist trolls on Mondoweiss.
You clowns only bring up Syria as part of rule #4.
Biorabbi is literally spamming every thread recently with ‘blah blah but, in Syria blah blah’.
This assumes Phil hasn’t touched the topic of Syria. He HAS.
You just don’t want anyone, for any reason, covering the I-P issue.
You trivialize Palestinian suffering, identity and rights. If YOU cared about anything, you’d care about the issue that comes closest to ‘home’ or reflects on you.
That’s how NORMAL people function. It doesn’t mean that Syria is less important, but it isn’t the issue you emotionally connect with. There are people who work and advocate for tons of issues that aren’t based on ‘who is dying more’.
When 7 Israelis die, you want to blame all of Palestinian society or use those deaths to undermine the legitimacy of Palestinian self-determination (Dick Witty’s argument).
SEVEN ISRAELIS. How many HUNDREDS of Palestinians die without being reported on in the MSM? Or without declarations of the end times from Zionists? Exactly, you’re goddamn hypocrites.
The only time you compare numbers is between relevant parties to a conflict. A and B. We talk about I-P, you bring up Darfur, Sudan, China, etc.
Now you bring up Syria because you’re so hopelessly RACIST, that you think we specifically care only for ‘dead Arabs’.
Every SINGLE Zionist commentator on this blog has no shame, is superficial, and total trash.
Except WonderingJew. Everyone else is a dishonest, cynically, racist.
Great reply Bravo lol.
“The only Arabs you care about are those being ‘persecuted’ by Jews.”
Right, because neocons are only concerned with “liberating” Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc. Sounds more like lefty do-gooder stuff with our tax dollars and the lives “other” people’s children.
I highly doubt there’s a Podhoritz wearing desert fatigues. Or a Kristol or a Krauthammer or a May or a Rumsfeld or a Perle or a Feith or a Wolfowitz..
Is there a DBG wearing fatigues? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
You’re not alone, Phil. MJ Rosenberg wrote a great piece here:
link to huffingtonpost.com
longliveisrael,
Read the goddam archives.
Read the goddam archives.
it blows my mind how people do not pay attention. there have been multiple libya threads here. googling “mondoweiss libya” is too difficult for some people. i stopped counting after 5 pages of listings. maybe they don’t know how to click the Show more results from mondoweiss.net after the initial 4.
Take a look at the period before the uprisings in the Arab world. NOTHING.
Take a long look at Israel’s entire history. Bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of native populations to make room for European immigrants.
Phil has sufficiently covered the Syrian and Egyptian uprisings. Libya as well.
There is NO DOUBT that he supports democracy in the Arab world.
So what is your argument? We know for a fact that a racist hasbaranik like you (and DBG, Biorabbi, etc.) don’t give a damn about non-Jews.
And why would someone with an Israel-centric world-view care about dead Arabs Israel is not responsible for??
You might as well throw DARFUR and SUDAN and CHINA into the mix, you cynical dolt. Phil reports much less on them than I-P.
But I think your RACIST argument was that Phil doesn’t care about ‘dead Arabs’ outside of the ones Israel murders.
Only in this bubble, the Israel-Palestine bubble, is your hate and ethno-religious self-centeredness tolerated.
We are heartily touched your concern of arab world longlive. Specially before those “uprisings in the Arab world”. Yes, we did hear your pain and worry all the time about arabs…..
What a moron. Thus guy was aming the main cheerleaders for the Iraq war. He cites Saudi Arabia as some moral benchmark.
When Iran condemned the Saudis for putting down the uprising in SA and Bahrain, the were called hypocrites.
Fulford can now claim the prize.
Iran condemned the Saudis for putting down the uprising
Now there is irony for you. In your world however, it makes sense.
Yeah, it’s kind of like the IDF condemning the use of white phosphorous! Oh wait, that’s right, they redacted that tweet didn’t they?
How many times have I read this article, about 20000? And the hypocrisy is still breathtaking.
Funny, it’s long been the Left that provides the only criticism of US militarism and American foreign policy hypocrisy. While many on the Left are opposed to the US solving every problem with the military (which apparently bothers Fulford), the Left also opposes American support of dictators. Where is your outrage, Mr. goliveinisraelyoushmuck, for what is going on in Bahrain? If you’re as old as some of us, did you oppose the Shah or US support for Saddam back in the day when Rumsfeld was literally kissing him? Have you uttered a peep about dictators in Saudi Arabia or Jordan? Did you object to Mubarak? Of course you didn’t. Your Israeli friends loved him. Did you protest extraordinary renditions to Syria? Of course not. You and your buddy Dersh love torture. And you sure as hell don’t think the Arab Spring should ever happen in Palestine.
When Iraqis were being butchered by Saddam, it was mostly with US support because it was in the context of Saddam’s war on Iran, which the US supported. Israel and its soldiers use torture and killing of innocent people for the very same reason Assad does, to prove who’s the boss. They both use tanks and air fire against civilians. Israel also uses torture, killing and denial of access to water and their own farms to take away people’s land and exile them because they don’t happen to be Jewish. The Assad regime is horrible and should go, but not it’s not bent on ethnic cleansing.
The previous US administrations surely did not give a rats ass about the Iraqi people when we were selling Saddam chemical and biological weapons. Clearly the US, UK, etc did not give a rats ass about the people of Egypt etc when we supported brutal dictators for years.
Clearly Feith, Wolfowitz, Bush, Cheney, Hadley did and do not give a rats ass about the people in Iraq when they lied about WMD’s and executed a horrific invasion that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, inuries and millions displaced.
How absurd that UK’s David Cameron, The US’s Secretary of State Clinton, Prez Obama demand that Gaddafi to be held accountable for crimes against humanity. The UK and US have their own war criminals running free. Oh yeah one of them might be Clinton…she voted for the horrific quagmire in Iraq.
Iraqis killed, by Turkey no less
link to english.aljazeera.net
are you certain the killers were not Eyeranians dressed up like Turks? after all, Eyeranians are the ones causing all the problems in the Middle East. Everyone knows that.
“This is a great night for the self-determination of the Libyan people. ”
Not really, Phil. Not any more than it was for the people of Iraq when they were “liberated” by the forces of good but most probably a great night for Muslim fundamentalism in Libya and a great night for the Zionist-led campaign to get France and NATO involved in helping it overthrow Gaddafi because like in Iraq, hundreds of Israeli companies will start getting work in Libya, but not a great night for the women in Libya that had the most equal rights of all Arab countries and now will most probably have to eventually go back to the fundies’ compulsory wearing of the abaya and lose their right to drive. It had to be a great night for half of Lebanon’s population because Gaddafi is reputed to have killed their Shia Imam, Moussa Sadr in the 70s. Self-determination had nothing to do with what happened eventhough Gaddafi was no saint. Mubarak was just as bad during 3 decades but the American press never disparaged him because he had the blessings of the US government till the end.
I think the situation in Libya sucks . The rebels are hopelessly divided and it was only NATO carpet bombing that brought them to Tripoli. How many people have been killed ? The Libyans are not going to get anywhere near democracy . Their oil and gas are far more important.
Your right seafoid, but remember this is “we do not believe in violence” Mr. Weiss, which really translated correctly means – “we only believe in US or Western violence with them wearing nice uniforms.” Of course, they will never get close to any democracy, and the thousands of deaths will amount to a hill of beans in some minds. Either way this post is ample proof of mile high hypocrisy and no understanding about what has occurred in the region.
Thanks, Walid.
Jeffrey Feltman was ambassador to Libya under Condie Rice & the 2006 Lebanon Destructo-gasm, and is now Hillary Clinton’s Man on The Scene in Tunisia, Egypt, now Libya:
Feltman’s Frequent Follies
Let’s Tell Lies about Hariri’s Murder
Lebanon said, No thanks; my Momma didn’t raise no fool.
if Feltman is involved, there is every reason to believe that the US is stirring up the crap that is going on in Syria. –>
spot on walid. weiss’s breathless credulousness can be wearisome, as he chases each ‘pivotal historical moment’ like a dog chasing after passing cars. reminds me of an old marshall mcluhan article criticizing the press: what species of insight into international affairs can a man have whose eyes bug out at the sound of wailng fire engine? or something like that. this especially true for someone who is old enough to have lived through the whole terpil-wilson shennigans in libya, what with the US intelligence arming and training the nascent ghaddafi regime. he’s just like noriega, whose usefullness had ended. let’s see what happens to all the indices of a functioning civil society in libya, like life expectancy, literacy rates, treatmen of women, etc. as the CIA’s man takes over.
All I have to know is the Jeff Feltman is involved.
that translates to, Libya is screwed.
I’m waiting for the International Court and ‘international law’ to do something with the thug Mahar Assad who can be seen shooting and torturing protestors on youtube; he’s Bashar’s brother. Rwanda also comes to mind as to the abject failure of international law.
#4) Everybody sucks!
How much foreign aid are we Americans giving Assad?
“How much foreign aid are we Americans giving Assad?”
Currently nothing but in the past, it depends if you mean directly or indirectly, because in 1990 it forgave it for $90 million in debt as its payoff for having joined Bush Sr’s coalition in Iraq. Indirectly, it’s hard to calculate since it allowed it to remain and benefit economically in Lebanon for 25 years. So the aid was substantial although it seems to have been made mostly with other people’s money. A few years back, it got another indirect helping hand when the IAEA gave Syria about 15 million for peaceful nuclear research along with a similar grant to Iran and the US funds about a quarter of these UN grants. It’s ironic how the US grants money for nuclear research and when these countries start research programs, the US wants to bomb them.
link to online.wsj.com
“It’s ironic how the US grants money for nuclear research and when these countries start research programs, the US wants to bomb them.”
It is SOP Walid (but I think you know that and are just pointing out the irony), they purposefully support what they intend to attack later (either policies or people, it is called pliable policies) – they put dirty people in for future purposes in countries. As another example, look at the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, first they talk about how they dread them – then they put them on the payroll. It is all a game, and gross ignorance of the rules causes people to make posts like this – “they liberated them!” (Libya) They liberated them with harsh Muslim “rebels,” these will ties down the people to commiseration while the West liberates them of their oil and encumbers them with businesses that will start the process of national rape. Than we will hear some years down the road “look at these monsters in control of Libya, the people need to be liberated!” It is bullshit on steroids, and anyone who believes these activities have any redeeming quality needs their head examined, or they are a plant by the powers that be to cheer on their carnage.
biorabbi :
“the abject failure of international law”
++++ International law is just fine. Problem are countrys who doesnt follow it. Wanna make harsh rulez ? Well that doesnt do the trick either. Ur barking up the wrong tree here….
But israel NEEDS Asad. LOL!
Rwanda also comes to mind as to the abject failure of international law.
With me it did not. Easily distracted, biorabby?
biorabbi,
LOL yeah sure I’d love to see israel’s face the morning after Asad falls and the Syrian Brotherhood in their thousands rush at their occupied Golan properties and fields. Sheesh and you thought the Sinai borders were “insecure with the fall of Mubarak”? LOL go back to the drawing board Einstein.
I really advise you to be careful what you wish for others.
The UN gave the Palestinians a country in 1947. They just didn’t like what they were given and chose war. They made a mistake and it was costly. Between 1948 and 1967 the Arabs could have given the Palestinians a state, but they chose not to and the Palestinians did not complain. So, why is the West responsible in any way for the Palestinians not having a state? The Arabs are responsible and the Palestinians themselves are responsible. They had ample opportunity till 1967 to declare their own state in the West Bank and Gaza.
You ziofascists always hide behind reductionist arguments. The UN Resolution in 1947 represented a victory for Jewish self-determination, but denied this essential right for the Palestinian Arabs. All around Palestine, we saw successful independence movements, and to be sure, Palestine’s own independence movement was gaining ground until the Zionists intervened with their own vision.
So no, you are wrong eee, it is not the Palestinians fault. They voiced their protest against the Zionist/UN plan but were ignored time and again. Who was the Palestinians’ representative at the UN at the time of the vote? They were thoroughly denied their right to self-determination, an error we continue to pay for today.
Sweet, name calling is so productive! Anyways, if there was a successful independence movement why wouldn’t they have pressed for an independent state when Gaza and the WB were occupied by other Arab countries? There was zero talk about Palestinian independence until after 1967.
I agree it wasn’t specifically the Palestinian’s fault, but the Arab countries surrounding Israel weren’t exactly on their side either. They were the ones who were against Partition and then started a war with Israel following it’s independence. They are the ones who’ve held the Palestinians and their descendants in camps using them as pawns against Israel.
There was zero massmurder, home demolitions, ethnic cleansing and home evictions.
False. Israel started the ar in 1947 wehn they expelled 300,000 Palestians between Decemeber 1947 adn May 1948. The Arabs forces came to their resue but were too late and too weak.
DBG :
“Sweet, name calling is so productive! Anyways, if there was a successful independence movement why wouldn’t they have pressed for an independent state when Gaza and the WB were occupied by other Arab countries? There was zero talk about Palestinian independence until after 1967.”
++++ Ahem. What happened in palestine in time of british mandate ? Palestinians were opposing mandate in general ? And why ? Were the british giving statements that they support independence from ottoman empire if they join to british war efforts ? And what happened in palestine between 1948-1967 then ? Jordan tryied to annex west bank ? Which is to say that Jordan opposed independent palestine then ? And this was done by agreement between Israel and Jordanian king ?
“I agree it wasn’t specifically the Palestinian’s fault, but the Arab countries surrounding Israel weren’t exactly on their side either.”
++++ Exactly. Opportunity makes a thief they say, includes surrounding arab states….
“They were the ones who were against Partition and then started a war with Israel following it’s independence.”
++++ Because Israel was outside of resolution 181 borders, and trying to kick out rest of arab population.
“They are the ones who’ve held the Palestinians and their descendants in camps using them as pawns against Israel.”
++++ Sorry, but why they are in UNRWA camps in overall ? Until final status negotiations are held & peace & honey is flowing and I/P conflict is solved. That would be very convenient to make palestinian refugees to disappear => to become citizens to hosting countrys. No palestinian refugees to bother lovely state Of Israel. You wish. This doesnt work that way.
There was zero massmurder, home demolitions, ethnic cleansing and home
As always is good old Shingo ill-informed. Ignorance is … bliss, isn’t it?
link to sixdaywar.org
And also this for the forgetfuls:
link to meforum.org
Oh, how careless of me not see the obvious – they are all Zionist Jews … can not be refugees …..
Do you have any more anti-Arab websites subsidized by the Israeli government to share with us, jonah?
“represented a victory for Jewish self-determination,”
No it didn’t. It represented, as far as I can see, a reward for Zionist intransigence and violence and minipulation. And rewards for the ZIonist’s backers. Nobody asked the Jews whether they wanted a country, and under what conditions.
The idea that there is a process by which “Jewish self-determination” could be consulted and a consensus reached is in itself, anti-Semetic.
“The UN gave the Palestinians a country in 1947″
They took away their land and gave it to the aliens from Europe.
The UN did not give anything to anyone in 1947.
The Partition Plan failed to pass in the Security Council, in part because the Zionist terrorists had already begun their murderous assault on non-Jews and it was clear that the mere proposal of “partition” was already a disaster. As a result the General Assembly in the spring of 1948 was considering an alternative plan for Palestine – UN trusteeship. But the Zionists, having already seized a great deal of Palestinian territory by murdering or forcing out hundreds of thousands of non-Jews, simply ignored this and in violation of international law, declared the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine. Of course, the Zionists cited and continue to cite the General Assembly’s failed Partition Plan as justification. (It would be nice if supporters of Palestinian rights would learn not to.)
The unlawful and immoral Partition Plan was rightfully dead at the time of Israel’s self-declared “independence.”
Emma,
Do have any information on this Security Council vote on partition? I’m well aware of the GA vote on Resolution 181, and the bribery and threats that swirled around getting the necessary two-thirds vote in favor. But, I hadn’t heard of the issue being taken up in the Security Council after that. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Nitpicking. The UN recognised Israel in 1948 as a follow on from the partition plan. The UN had no right to dispossess the Palestinians.
Sure. Here are some of the relevant resolutions and documents:
link to unitednationstrusteeshippalestine1948.blogspot.com
link to yale.edu
link to avalon.law.yale.edu
link to palestinechronicle.com
Some extra details about the U.S. inner politicking around the recognition of the new Jewish state:
link to informationclearinghouse.info
link to mideastweb.org
Thank you, Emma.
Excellent, Emma. Thanks, I have read bits and pieces before about the internal politics that swirled around Truman’s ultimate decision to back the Jewish state. But the article you linked to regarding Clifford’s memoir is extremely insightful!
You are absolutely right that the UN had no right to partition Palestine. And the UN didn’t partition Palestine. That’s not nitpicking. It’s an important point.
You are also right that the UN shouldn’t have admitted Israel into the UN in 1949.
(Sorry, previous comment was meant to be in reply to Exiled at Home.)
Some further references on that:
link to trumanlibrary.org
link to unispal.un.org.
The only mistake the Palestinians made, apparently, was offering Zionist Jews any sort of amnesty and protection from the Holocaust. BOY, did your ancestors stab them in the back, big-time.
Expected nonsense from Chaos. Prior to 1947, anyone, Jew, Christian, Moslem living in the British Mandate was Palestinian. The so-called Palestinian Arab had no more right to the land than anyone else.
In fact, Palestine was supposed to include TransJordan, which the Brits then lopped off to give to the Hashemites. Where’s the intifada against Jordan? Oh, they tried that in the ’70s, we all know how their Jordanian brothers handled that.
Apart from the fact the so called poalestiniasn were citizens of Palestine and that land woneership was based on title deeds, as opposed to religion.
In fact, that bullshit has been debunked countless times. TransJordan was NEVER intended to be part of Palestine. Even the August 1919 Balfour memo from the peace conference mentions that the territory East of the Jordan river was not included in Palestine. He also mentions that the French interests in Syria, Mesopotamia, and Palestine were three separate territories.
So, Transjordan wasn’t even part of Palestine during the San Remo Conference in April 1920. Article 25 had to be added to the British Mandate when the territory of Transjordan was added to the British Mandate as a result of the overthrow of the Faisal regime a few months after San Remo and an agreement was reached between Abdullah and Churchill during the Cairo Conference. On 21 March 1921, the Foreign and Colonial office legal advisers decided to introduce Article 25 into the Palestine Mandate. It was approved by Curzon on 31 March 1921, and the revised final draft of the mandate, including the territory of Transjordan (for the very first time), was forwarded to the League of Nations on 22 July 1922. See Aaron S. Klieman, “Foundations of British Policy In The Arab World: The Cairo Conference of 1921″, Johns Hopkins, 1970, ISBN 0-8018-1125-2, pages 228–234
Where’s the ethnic cleasing and expusion by Jordan?
Stop making such a fool of yourself LLI. We already get that you are an idiot.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Jordanian army attacks
On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade of the Jordanian Army) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq’aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[13][14] However the Jordanians could not devote all their attention to the Palestinians. The 3rd Armoured Division of the Iraqi Army had remained in Jordan after the 1967 war. The Iraqi regime sympathised with the Palestinians, and it was unclear whether the division would intervene on the part of the Palestinians. Thus the 99th Brigade of the Jordanian 3rd Armoured Division had to be retained to watch the Iraqi division.[15]
Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000.[16][17]
Hostage David Raab described the initial military actions in Black September this way:
“We were in the middle of the shelling since Ashrafiyeh was among the Jordanian Army’s primary targets. Electricity was cut off, and again we had little food or water. Friday afternoon, we heard the metal tracks of a tank clanking on the pavement. We were quickly herded into one room, and the guerrillas threw open the doors to make the building appear abandoned so it wouldn’t attract fire. Suddenly, the shelling stopped.”
The armored troops were inefficient in narrow city streets and thus the Jordanian army conducted house to house sweeps for Palestinian fighters and got immersed in heavy urban warfare with the Palestinian fighters.
Amman experienced the heaviest fighting in the Black September uprising. Syrian tanks rolled across the Yarmouk River into northern Jordan and began shelling Amman and other northern urban areas. Outdated missiles fired by the PLO struck Amman for more than a week. Jordanian infantry pushed the Palestinian Fedayeen out of Amman after weeks of bitter fighting.
Casualties
See also: Palestinian casualties of war
Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated by Jordan at 3,400, while Palestinian sources often cite the number 5,000, mainly civilians, killed. Arafat at some point claimed that 10,000 had been killed.[21][22] The Western reporters were concentrated at the Intercontinental Hotel, away from the action.[citation needed] Nasser’s state-controlled Voice of the Arabs from Cairo reported genocide.
So long as we’re clear that that changed WITH ISRAEL, and that now in Israel, being a Jew means being privileged over others. Whereas before Israel, LIKE YOU STATED, everybody was equal.
supposed to maybe but transjordan historically was a different peice of land and probably should have been lopped off from the real and true historical palestine.
eee, all you do is repeat lies, lies that have been documented in great detail as lies hundreds of times on this site. Read the MW archives.
The facts are so simple and undeniable. The UN passed a partition resolution on November 29, 1947. International law in action, no? Or does international law only apply when its outcome is good for Palestinians? The partition was the international compromise reached. The Arabs and Palestinians rejected it. They appealed it at the Hague and lost but did not accept the result. The Palestinians clearly started the tit for tat attacks that constituted the civil war in Palestine. No amount of demagoguery is going to get you around this historical fact. When Israel declared independence, all the states in the Arab league declared war on it, ALL of THEM bar none.
Between 48 and 67 the Arab world and the Palestinians had almost 20 years to set up a Palestinian country in the West Bank and Gaza with its capital in East Jerusalem. They did not. Israel did not control any of the territory nor did it have any settlements there. So who is responsible for the fact that no Palestinian country exists?
eee, goes on :
“The facts are so simple and undeniable.”
++++ Hah.
“The UN passed a partition resolution on November 29, 1947. International law in action, no?”
++++ Poor eee. UN resolutions are NOT international law.
“Or does international law only apply when its outcome is good for Palestinians?”
++++ Maybe you should really study what is international law.
“The partition was the international compromise reached.”
++++ No, not really.
“The Arabs and Palestinians rejected it.”
++++ Just like anything prior say 50 years.
“They appealed it at the Hague and lost but did not accept the result.”
++++ Pardon moi, what “appealed it at the Hague” ???
“The Palestinians clearly started the tit for tat attacks that constituted the civil war in Palestine.”
++++ Sorry to say but i understand palestinians completely. When zionistas march in and start to say that they are going to kick out arabs, well well.
“No amount of demagoguery is going to get you around this historical fact.”
++++ Tihihiii.
“When Israel declared independence, all the states in the Arab league declared war on it, ALL of THEM bar none.”
++++ Can you show us those declarations, plz.
“Between 48 and 67 the Arab world and the Palestinians had almost 20 years to set up a Palestinian country in the West Bank and Gaza with its capital in East Jerusalem. They did not. Israel did not control any of the territory nor did it have any settlements there.”
++++ Yes Israel did control. Started few weeks after resolution 181 come out in Nov.1947.
“So who is responsible for the fact that no Palestinian country exists?”
++++ Israel.
No eee,
The UN took 56% of the Palestinian’s land in 1947 and gave it to the immigrant colonists.
Really? So why is the West saing no to a Palestinians decslaring their state at the UN in September?
As historical revisionism goes that is up there with The Hitler Diaries, eek. Do you just make up whatever comes to mind that day, or are you just ignorant of history?
eee, again :
“The UN gave the Palestinians a country in 1947. They just didn’t like what they were given and chose war.”
++++ You would have done the same.
“They made a mistake and it was costly.”
++++ Mistake was made by Israel a’la stealing their land.
“Between 1948 and 1967 the Arabs could have given the Palestinians a state, but they chose not to and the Palestinians did not complain.”
++++ Have you really asked that from them ?
“So, why is the West responsible in any way for the Palestinians not having a state?”
++++ West ? Say Israel and we are starting to approach the right target. West is not occupying a inch of palestinian area, Israel is so….
“The Arabs are responsible and the Palestinians themselves are responsible.”
++++ Responsible of what ?
“They had ample opportunity till 1967 to declare their own state in the West Bank and Gaza.”
++++ And after 1967 ?
++++ You would have done the same.
No, I wouldn’t have.
++++ Mistake was made by Israel a’la stealing their land.
The mistake was to start a war they could not win. If you start a war, better be sure you can win it.
++++ Have you really asked that from them ?
Is it my job to ask anything of the Palestinians? They had 20 years to setup a state in the West Bank and Gaza and didn’t. The territory was completely controlled by Arab countries.
++++ West ? Say Israel and we are starting to approach the right target. West is not occupying a inch of palestinian area, Israel is so….
Phil is arguing the West owes the Palestinians something. No it doesn’t.
++++ Responsible of what ?
For the fact that a Palestinian state does not exist.
++++ And after 1967 ?
Negotiations is the only solution. You are of course welcome to also try BDS which will of course back fire.
“No, I wouldn’t have.”
++++ Yes you would, and zionists just did that.
“The mistake was to start a war they could not win. If you start a war, better be sure you can win it.”
++++ And who did force Israeli troops to advance areas that wasnt Israel soil ? Remember, when you gross a line thats called attack, not defence.
“Is it my job to ask anything of the Palestinians?”
++++ I think that was Moshe Dayan who said that Peace is made with your enemy, not with your friend. So if you dont ask what they want….well there you are then. Enjoy, i guess more good news will follow….
“They had 20 years to setup a state in the West Bank and Gaza and didn’t. The territory was completely controlled by Arab countries.”
++++ Where did you leave poor little Israel and why ?
“Phil is arguing the West owes the Palestinians something. No it doesn’t.”
++++ To use same arguments which west uses in similar case, in different places.
“For the fact that a Palestinian state does not exist.”
++++ Again you leave that poor little Israel somewhere….
“Negotiations is the only solution.”
++++ No its not. Its only useful solution, but not only.
“You are of course welcome to also try BDS which will of course back fire.”
++++ I have used that years before anybody was speaking BDS. I didnt see any backfire then. And tell more that backfire….
sure you qould have you have repeatedly shown here your for violence for jewish gain
true. which is why they didn’t and lost to your terrorist ancestors who had been stockpiling weapons for the past 2 years prior.
how do you set up a state when your occupied?
wrong ity owes them for the crimes they have committed against them and allows them to be committed. it owes them for standing by and letting people like you steal their land.
fact a state of palestine was recognized insofar as being a class A mandate. a state which your terrorist enterprise is occupying.
how when people like you deny the palestinians their right to their own homes. puutting Israel down like the rabid dog it is is the only true solution.
really this lie again. the palestinians weren;t given a state by anyone. they had it already in the virtue of being a class A mandate. they rejected giving up the best 55% for other. those others the jews you know people like you chose war to steal. the palestinians didn’t chose war. you and yours forced it on them. I don’t know why someone who spouts these repugnent lies is allowed to stay here.
the Palestinian democracy marches will manifest too – first things first: statehood … then, if they are smart, the Palestinians will be totally nonviolent no matter what horrors evil israel visits upon them – they should take food and water and blankets and simply flood the streets of East Jerusalem and stay there until israel accepts the new Palestinian state and makes the deal we’ve all been waiting for – with East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine
… through cynical and debasing manipulation and terror israel has maintained the controlling position up until the present … history is now here to claim its mandate and that means israel changes and becomes human and humane and becomes a willing participant in the change or that it is superseded by events and is victimized by its own hubris
Very happy to see Gadaffi’s tenure as life long dictator come to an end (soon), inshallah. Wishing the same for Syria, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. In that order. (Also Pakistan).
it’s nights like this i wish i had tv reception.
no need!!! Just watch aljazeera live on their website!!!
Way better than the racist and ignorant commentary found on CNN.
A FREE AND FLOURISHING PALESTINE WILL NEVER COME TO PAST!
The countless violations of international law committed by Israel will continue. Along with the indisputable practice of institutionalized Apartheid, ever expanding illegal settlements, collective punishment of 1.5 mill people, and the daily humiliation, discrimination, and abuse suffered by the Palestinians on a daily basis.
UNLESS Americans take a stand against the hawkish Israel Lobby. A lobby who for the last 60 years has enjoyed a brutal monopoly over our foreign policy and our congress. Resulting in multiple wars, historically low international standing, and unprecedented anti-American sentiment all for the sole purpose of strengthening Israel and weakening her enemies.
But without America’s blind support and protection, Israel would be held accountable for their crimes and peace will come, just as in South.Africa. But until Americans take our congress and our country back from AIPAC and the Lobby and actually elect candidates who puts America first,.the status quo will continue indefinitely
you think SA is a good model for a binational I/P state? wow…..
Yes, SA’s international standing is superior to Israel’s.
Gosh, I guess you’re right, maybe Africans should have been herded into Bantustans and had the gates locked behind them, kind of like what Israel is doing to the West Bank and Gaza, right?
It’s quite humorous that you’re completely oblivious to the fact that your response serves to reinforce what I previously stated in addition exposes your lack of counter arguments. Out of three full paragraphs of my post you, for obvious reasons, focused solely on my reference to South Africa.
The obvious reasons go as followed:
1. There is absolutely nothing in my post that you can effectively argue by providing facts and evidence to the contrary.
2. The overwhelming power of the Lobby in the US and the horrendously negative impact it has on America is well known and indisputable.
3. The state of Israel has become so disgraceful and criminal that it is literally indefensible at this point.
4. Therefore, the Pro Israel argument has become so redundant, ineffective, and lame that they often resort to labeling opponents (aka truth tellers) as anti semetic, self hatred, nazis ect.
To answer your question: no I don’t think SA is the best example of a binational state, nor did I state or insinuate that it is. My reference to SA, which u saw as an opportunity to manipulate my words to suit your argument, was to emphasis that Apartheid can and will be overcome.
-
here’s a hint
if you need the largest
military alliance ever assembled
to prop up your ‘popular revolution’ -
you might be a redneck [sorry guys]
and if you think victory can be achieved
by guns, bombs, walls and division
you might find yourselves
prisoners within those walls
all the projection in the world
will not change the simple fact
if you kick people around
their gonna kick back
be careful what you wish for
’cause it just might come true
and you’ll be sitting there all alone
then – what the hell will you do ?
-
From CNN’s morning Hot Topics Report for Aug 22 :
CNN: Barrage of rockets from Gaza strike Israel; sites in Gaza targeted
A barrage of rockets and mortars fired into southern Israel continued Sunday, the latest in a four-day escalation of violence sparked by a series of attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers Thursday.
From the folks who give you Wolf Blitzer.
David Cameron has praised the Libyans and such. “free Libyan fighters”, “the will of the Libyan people”, “I am in close contact with [...] Chairman Jalil” (Mustafa Mohammed Abdul Jalil who was Ghadaffy’s minister of justice until … last February)the Guardian
I bet the oil contracts are safe then.
The US is the world’s biggest military power but it happens to be broke and it requires a lot of oil, coltan, uranium, copper, and other minerals, most of which come from Africa, to produce and use its weapons.
Recolonizing African has been the purpose of the US military command in Africa, called AFRICOM. AFRICOM’s headquarters was in Europe because no country in Africa would allow it.
If Gaddafi falls, Africa falls. The US will build the biggest military base in Africa, possibly in the world, AFRICOM HQ, in Libya. Pity poor Egypt, if Israel should decide to secure its border and Egypt is simultaneously invaded by both Israel and the NATO-controlled military in Libya.
Under Gaddafi, Libya had achieved the highest standard of living in Africa. There were no homeless, there was no poverty, health care and education were free, and he spent billions to build a man made river to bring fresh pure drinking water to Libyans–a system that NATO has deliberately bombed.
I hope Gaddafi prevails, because if he falls Africa will know darker days than the Congo under King Leopold. And with US control of most of the world’s rare minerals, no other power will be able to resist US domination.
The depths of this tragedy has yet to unfold but if NATO prevails it will be much worse than Iraq.
It is interesting, however, that despite all the NATO bombing, and the numerous media reports that Gaddafi had fled the country or was captured or killed, he is still there and still defending Libya. Like Fidel Castro, who survived hundreds of US assassination attempts, Gaddafi has the support of most of the Libyan people because they know what life is like in other African countries and in Europe and the US where there is enormous poverty, widespread homelessness, and millions of desperate people.
Reports from people on the ground in Libya differ greatly from the disinformation spread by the mainstream media.
Those who support US and Israeli imperialism want Gaddafi to fall. I do not.
I hear you mymarkx, but here it sounds like a voice in the wilderness, it is too bad. Most do not know how to see what is transpiring, their minds have been robbed, they just do not know it
Libya was a colony of Italy and then the British and French until 1951. I’m not sure when the Western powers turned from imperial interests to benevolent supporters of the Libyan peoples desire for self-determination occurred, but the rank and file rebels who have illusions about NATO will be sorely disappointed when they find their fight has been hijacked by Western corporations interested in taking their oil with little benefit to Libya.
If you can stomach it, this clip from Faux News shows pretty clearly the thinking in Western ruling circles.
link to tinyurl.com
When the 9/11 commission report, former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit Micheal Scheuer, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, Kathleen and Bil Christison, General James Jones, Former President Jimmy Carter, Zbigniew Brizenski (sp?) etc keep repeating the facts. That the reasons for so much anger towards the US are
1. US support for dictators in the region
2. US support for Israel no matter what they do
3. US military bases on Muslims holy lands
While we should all be celebrating the inevitable fall of another brutal dictator. The support that the UK, France, US have provided for Gaddafi for decades needs to be reflected on
Also
Let’s hope that the profits from 2% of the worlds oil in Libya make it to the people of Libya and not the multinational oil companies circling the Gaddafi Regimes carcass.
Following MSNBC, CNN, Washington Journal on this issue. Richard Engel has been at the fore front of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya in MSNBC’s reporting of brutal dicators falling. He never ever NEVER EVER touches Palestinian protest, Palestinian’s hunger for justice. He uses every opportunity to jump over to BAD BAD Iran. Rachel Maddow, Andrea Mitchell etc all partner up with this agenda. Engel celebrates with the people in the streets with his microphone..with MSNBC’s cameras and always jump right over the Palestinians fight for justice to focus on Iran.
You can bet your ass that this upcoming MSNBC special called “Day of Destruction, Decade of War” that is hosted by Richard Engel and Rachel Maddow will not mention the dead , injured, displaced in Iraq, who controls the oil in Iraq, the who , what, where and why of the manufacturing of the false WMD intelligence, what role Israel and the I lobby played in pushing for that invasion, You can also bet your ass that Richard Engel and Rachel Maddow will use this opportunity to turn the Americans publics attention onto BAD BAD Iran.
David Ignatius takes every opportunity to turn the attention to BAD BAD Iran. On Friday he did this on the Diane Rehm show. This morning he did it again on Morning Joe.
Next stop Iran folks…. The stage has been set over the last eight years. Christiane Amanpour, George Stephanapoulous, Bob Schiefer, Wolf Blitzer, Diane Rehm, Neil Conan, Rachel Maddow etc have all allowed guest to repeat unsubstantiated claims about Iran over the years. Rachel Maddow, Terri Gross and now Diane Rehm repeat those unsubstantiated claims themselves
The terror and subsequent escalations put an end to the Tel Aviv summer.
Hopefully it will be revived.
350,000 in the street demonstrating for social welfare, social justice for all. Then 5,000 demonstrating for an end to the occupation, but calling themselves the real J14 movement.
Oh boo friggin’ hoo. Too bad all those sunbathers and night club goers can’t enjoy the festival while a few kilometers away Palestinians starve and are left with bombed-out ruins.
Phil, before rejoicing at Qaddafi’s impending fall, check out the insights of Patrick Cockburn (brother of Alex).
link to counterpunch.org
The future for Libya is unclear. The rebel’s leadership is a sorry lot.
PHIL “This is a joyful night. The liberation of Tripoli and Libya is one of those events we never could have predicted at the beginning of the year, I’ve been glued to the screen, sharing the triumph of the hopeful people in the streets in north Africa.”
Ah, the triumphalism of the liberal imperialist is a wonder to behold. Cheering on the empire? Shame on you! Normal self-deception is one thing, but at this stage of the game, this is beyond the pale.
In todays Seattle Times it said that “…television showed crowds of opposition fighters in Tripoli unfurling the tricolor flag of pre-Gadhafi Libya….” Pre-Gaddafi? Back when the Sheik ruled on behalf of the Western oil corporations and Libya was one of the poorest and least educated in all of Africa? Before the tyrant Gaddafi redistributed the wealth and Libya rose to the top of per capita income and education in all of Africa, with the highest development index?
Yes, let us unite in joy with Phil to celebrate the liberation of Libyans from their country’s wealth as Libya reverts to the Third World model of poverty for the masses as Libyan assets are privatized and otherwise commandeered. As their government reverts to an imperial satrapy with elections, and structural adjustment provides hope for the future. Of course, the imperial rebels will need to consolidate their power, which will likely entail some form of the ‘Salvadoran option’ as ‘Gaddafi loyalists’ are neutralized with a little help from US Special Operations Forces. A bright future indeed.
Forgive me if I interpret events differently. Let me begin with a quote:
“in the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan.…” (Wesley Clark, Winning Modern Wars, p. 130, quoted by Michel Chossudovsky)
Obviously, the five year time horizon was overly optimistic. Iraq dragged on and Hezbollah held firm. What to do? The uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt provided a problem and an opportunity. The problem was how to contain the Egyptian discontent and prevent it from spreading to the oil rich areas. Egypt was contained, Bahrain, which borders Saudi Arabia, crushed. The opportunity was to intervene in targeted nations, such as Libya and Syria, under cover of the ‘Arab spring’, a convenient label which romanticizes and misrepresents the reality of the situation.
In Libya, the imperial ‘rebels’ have had massive imperial support from the get go. Money, weapons, training, special ops support, diplomatic support, and an unprecedented amount of US/NATO air support. Without this, they would have been easily defeated long ago. As it was, it took quite a long time to defeat the militias of this militarily weak country. If these imperial mercenaries had any real support among the people they would have won in about a week. The stiff resistance was not the result of any sort of misplaced loyalty to Gaddafi, rather it was patriotic resistance to yet another foreign invasion/intervention of Libya, with consequences that are rather easily predicted. The empire smashes yet another weak and defenseless Third World country (population 6 million), and the Progressive Only On Palestine (POOP) liberals are besides themselves with joy. So who’s next? Iran? Chavez? The noecon dream moves forward. Can’t get much more ‘humanitarian’ than that! Ah, the White Man’s Burden is alive and well!
“Of course, the imperial rebels will need to consolidate their power, which will likely entail some form of the ‘Salvadoran option’ as ‘Gaddafi loyalists’ are neutralized with a little help from US Special Operations Forces. A bright future indeed.”
Yes, it has already begun Keith, I have reports of journalists who would not bow to US/NATO demands and propagandize, hiding because of multiple death threats which I am sure will be fulfilled – truly “a day of joy” as uncompromising journalists are arrested and assassinated.
Voltaire Network concerned about the death threats hanging over Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya and Thierry Meyssan
Add that there is no “double standard” for Palestine. It’s the same standard, which is “U.S. interests.” But there’s denial about this, and “damage control” on behalf of American Empire, based partly on the argument that it’s only “Jewish interests” that are being served in the U.S. and Israel. So NATO bombs Libya into submission, and Israel is supposed to be next?
Since 1969 when Gaddafi took power in a bloodless coup:
* The Libyan economy has become the best performing in Africa and has, from time to time, outperformed developed countries such as Italy, Singapore, South Korea, Spain and New Zealand. Every citizen receives a dividend, paid into their bank account from the State Oil Industry.
* The literacy rate has gone from 20% to the highest in North Africa; over 82% .
* Education is free and compulsory up to secondary level.
* Universities and higher technical and vocational institutes have gone from zero to 84 (with 12 public universities). Higher education is funded by the State. 1.7 million of 6.4 million Libyans are students.
* Healthcare for every citizen is free, including travel for procedures not available in Libya.
* Crime.
Incarceration: 173 per 100,000 people (U.S. 743 incarcerated per 100,000)
Murder: 2.2 per 100,000 people (U.S. 5.5 per 100,000)
* Agriculture
25-30% of State expenditure goes to Agricultural projects aimed at freeing Libya from its dependence on imported food.
No wonder he had to go.
Thank you, Brewer.
Here’s a picture of the beautiful city of Tripoli before the barbaric NATO bombing:
link to t.co
Incredible how ignorant and misinformed most people in the west are, but of course that’s due to corporate-owned media and government disinformation.
Here’s a more accurate news source:
link to globalresearch.ca
“* Agriculture
25-30% of State expenditure goes to Agricultural projects aimed at freeing Libya from its dependence on imported food. ”
Interesting that you should mention that Brewer, some of the first bombings made sure that the aquifer transport was destroyed.
LIBYA, WATER – THE REAL REASON WHY THE DOMINANT NATIONS ARE IN LIBYA
If you believed it was the forces of “good” as opposed to the forces of “evil,” or humanitarian purposes, or because someone from NATO cares about the Libyans and “freedom,” think again. The real reasons are never on the surface, they are NEVER the official reason(s), and if you believe what this propagandist system has told you, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. They are there because if they gain control they can strangle the entire Northern African region to the will of the global junta – it is a resource war, a water war. With the project comes the greening of the desert, where the food cultivated would not only feed Libya, but the entire Northern Africa Region – reducing dependence of course, on Western supply of food stuffs and the lack of dependence means a lack of control by the global mafia.
The USA/NATO attack on Libya is NOT something to be celebrated.
This is part of the ongoing US aggression for control of resources started in 1898.
It’s part of US Imperialism (hegemony).
And you should see that but obviously don’t.
It calls into doubt your whole political philosophy.
You mean like how we’re a loud democracy at home but a quiet empire overseas?