Dan Shapiro, the new ambassador to Israel for the Obama administration, is doing major outreach for Obama. He glowingly describes his Zionist bona fides in this speech to the Jewish People Policy Institute five days ago.
Not a word about settlements or the occupation or Palestinian human rights. (When even Ahmadinejad is criticizing Syria!) Here is the closest Shapiro comes to referring to settlements:
When an effort was made to insert the United Nations into matters that should be resolved through direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians in February of this year, we vetoed it.
Then noting how committed he and his family are to Israel, he notes the American trend is against them:
The percentage of our friends who, like us, have chosen to address issues of concern to the Jewish community, including Israel, prominently in their professional lives never ceases to amaze me. But it may be deceptive. Much research has shown that growing numbers of younger American Jews feel disconnected, or at best ambivalent, toward Israel. Valuable programs like Birthright have exposed many to this connection, but many more have not been reached.
As JPPI and others have observed, a stronger commitment to Zionist education for American Jewish youth could do much to strengthen bonds that we want to be even stronger in the next generation, but may not be if left untended.
What a bunch of idiotic makebelieve. I gave up after getting only this far:
>> “America and Israel are unique in the world, in that our founding fathers and mothers made a conscious decision to leave their place of birth in search of a better future, in the case of Israel, to rebuild the ancient homeland of their ancestors. Both our countries were established on the very premise that all people have a right to live and to thrive and to determine their own futures.
we have deep admiration and respect for a society, especially in this part of the world, where peaceful protesters can march and be heard, where violence and fear never enters the equation, and where the people and their government rely on democratic institutions to resolve issues of controversy.” <<
This guy is living on ziocane, he's completely lost the plot; what a strange fantasy world. This is more Zionist than Zionism is!
That he was selected tells us much about where Obama and the US stands.
I should know better, but I can't believe how there can be such absolute denial of the obvious.
“our founding fathers and mothers made a conscious decision to leave their place of birth in search of a better future,”
Whereas in our case,
From distant climes, o’er wide-spread seas we come,
Though not with much eclat, or beat of drum,
True patriots all, for it be understood,
We left our country for our country’s good:
No private views disgraced our generous zeal,
What urged our travels was our country’s weal:
And none will doubt that our emigration
Had prov’d most useful to the British Nation.
(Henry Carter, though usually attributed to George Barrington.)
Wait, which one is he again? The US ambassador to Israel? And he’s extolling Zionism? So he thinks he answers to Netanyahu then?
The fifth column grows.
This Shapiro character is like the prostitute who is proud to be one. Perhaps it’s best if he changed his name to Madam Shapiro. Or better yet, someone do humanity a favor and give him an Israeli passport. Let him stay where he feels at home.
And good for Obama for pleasing The Lobby with his appointment of Shapiro.
Perhaps they should all drop all pretense and make Tel-Aviv the capital of the United States. Just a thought.
My brother and I are both “lost” Jewish youth in our twenties. Neither of us will likely marry Jews, judging by who we date- we may raise our children with some Jewish traditions but probably mix in the traditions of our spouses as well. Neither my brother nor I have attended services in almost a decade, and we don’t go home for Jewish holidays (unless theres concern about a family member or we’re really missing my moms cooking). My brother went on birthright for the free trip, I refused to go (I did manage to visit family in Israel once… it did not end well). I am firmly pro-Palestinian and my brother is completely apathetic to the whole conflict. I assume we are the people Dan Shapiro is describing.
Except both of us were raised in a very Jewish and Zionist aware household. Dan Shapiro would give my mother the “Zionist mom of the year” badge. My mother was born in Israel and is very active in synagogue politics, serving as President for a term. We were going to Hebrew school from the time we were old enough to walk- Hebrew preschool until well after we were Bar/Bat Mitzvahed, we went to Jewish day camp and then Young Judaea sleep away camp, we were both put in USY and other Jewish teen activities. We had books about Jews, Israel, and the Holocaust, music, video cassettes. We were brought to synagoge for all the major services, all the special activities planned to get young Jews involved so we would be good Jews when we grew up. We went on a big two week trip to Israel when I was 11 and he was 9. My family donated heavily to both of our schools Hillel’s although neither of us ever set foot in one.
Except every chance my brother and I found to get out of these activities, we got out. My parents didn’t give up easily either- we fought tooth and nail to get out of every single obligation. Well I fought the tougher battles, by the time my brother reached the milestones- my parents were already broken in by me and they let him do what he wanted. Besides sending us to Jewish boarding school or moving us to an Orthodox neighborhood, really they did all they could. I look back at my battles and I have to say they were very formidable opponents.
So Mr Shapiro, where did my parents go wrong? Did they offer us too many choices to explore our individual interests? Did they let the US public/private education system with their mantra of “melting pot” and “diversity is good” melt our brains (Even though my mom was involved in teaching Jewish and Israeli culture in our classes!)? Were we raised to be too American? Should they have just shipped us to Israel at 18 and had us do a tour in the military? Because that is the only thing my parents didn’t try….
(I should point out that our rejection of Jewish and Zionist culture is the ONLY thing my brother and I have in common. I may be the bleeding heart liberal but my brother is a cold conservative libertarian type, neither of us is a copy of our parents or their ideologies, so neither of us could be described as a black sheep. Also, all of my cousins except one are non-religious, dating non-Jews, and ambivalent about Israel. My branch of the family tree was the second strictest, the stricter one spent every summer in Israel and still turned out an ambivalent young adult)
mle – fascinating personal story and thanks for sharing.. i don’t think a person can be made to think or act a certain way if it doesn’t make sense to them.. i admire you for trying to find your own identity while growing up in a family that encouraged you to be a certain way… the superficial ways that people have of identifying never made any sense to me, although i know others find great comfort in these same things.. we are so much more then the colour of our skin or the religion that our ancestors were a part of… on some level all religions and people merge into one.. that is the world, religion and people i want to be with, not the divisive world where everyone is so busy protecting their turf and can’t get past their narrow self interests… thanks for sharing your experience growing up..
Have you ever attempted to discuss Zionism with your mother and convince her that it might be inherently wrong?
My mom isn’t Likudist, she’s nostalgic for the kibbutznik days. I think she’s in line with Richard Witty’s line of Zionism. She’s disappointed by my political views but she does attempt to protect me from my more critical relatives and synagogue members.
We’ve settled on I don’t start arguments at family events and she will keep family members from starting them with me. They come awfully close sometimes, but I’ve become very good at stuffing my mouth with a big piece of food when the subject comes up.
Great story, showing inter alia that there are several paths that non-Zionist Jewish youth can take.
My own story is about the polar opposite. Parents had rejected religion entirely. No bar-mitzva. Got a book for birthday or Christmas (yes!) from one of my father’s aunts, and saw through the tissue paper, the title “Basic Judo” and couldn’t wait to unwrap it. Consider my disappointment when the title turned out to be “Basic Judaism”. Oh well. In late June, 1967, I married a Palestinian, a Quaker. My father never said a word about Israel/Palestine to me or her. Many years later, after she had died, he let me know that the 1967 war was a turning point for him, by which he had become proud of (well I forget what: Israel? Jewish military prowess?) something. But out of consideration for me he’d not mentioned it. I guess 1948 seemed OK to him. (In 1967 I was so ignorant that I didn’t know about either Israel or Palestine. Mathematics nerd.)
Well, thank God all the Zionists alive to day will live forever, and will be around to see that nothing changes in terms of Judaism and Zionism.
And if by some unforseen and impossible accident, they should die, we certainly can’t change any of the terms or definitions of these things, out of respect for the deceased, or fear they will come back to haunt us, or re-draft their wills.
I want to clarify my position of my religious beliefs. I consider myself Jewish the way my boyfriend considers himself Catholic. Neither of us practice- but we were born into it. I don’t begrudge anyone who decides to embrace their Jewish faith and fully practice. If my brother marries a Jewish girl in 10 years and they have a Jewish household, I won’t consider it a betrayal. I’m pointing out that my family (including extended) produced five young adults disconnected with our Jewish faith despite the fact we were saturated with the Jewish experience.
I don’t think theres one issue that led to this- I don’t even think Israel as a political issue drove any of us away from Judaism. We’re fully assimilated into American society and I think its for the best. I believe this is what Jewish Americans fought to become, fully assimilated productive members of society. The Catholic Church is losing membership and is becoming less relavent, but Catholics don’t have such strict requirements for membership. It’s religious Darwinism- if you can’t hold onto your base and you can’t recruit new members, then your religion will die off. Either adapt or accept the inevitable.
The only reason I bring up my Jewish heritage is when I discuss the education I was given regarding Israel until late high school when I was given a more objective view of European colonialism in the Middle East, and the history of US foreign policy. My disgust with the policies carried out by the United States government under the banner of “Manifest Destiny” was the biggest influence in getting involved in anti-Zionist activity. Actually, I officially became anti-Zionist when my parents suggested that Palestinians should learn from the Native Americans and open casinos in the Gaza Strip and West Bank and I couldn’t tell if they were joking or not. The fact that my very liberal Democrat family who supports the causes of so many different groups and movements (my mom is huge on women’s liberation) could make tasteless comments on two groups that they directly or indirectly assist in exploiting really changed my world view.
The fact remains that by whatever means: Supreme Court or otherwise the president of the United States on the day of the September 11th attack was the son of a former president who had attacked Iraq the first time around and hadn’t finished the job, which led to an attempt on the father’s life. True George Bush Jr. came into the presidency concerned about one thing: lowering taxes for the rich, but after September 11th it was a sure thing that he would pursue a military path, given his political party and his vice president’s political path. Cheney, his vice president, the man he took into the commission to testify together with him, had an “interesting” career starting with a record of middle of the road Republican foreign policy attitudes swinging over to the neocon side of the street less than a decade later. By the time he was chosen as vice president, Cheney had acquired the commitment to the neocon concept of an aggressive American presence in the middle east spear headed by a strong Israel. He also assembled the personnel who were ready to make things happen, if given the opportunity, which September the 11th gave them.
Those who are inspired by the Arab Spring (usually) speak for a policy that is different from the Cheney concept of muscular Zionism as a major player in the military power politics of the middle east. Those who see only danger emerging from the Arab Spring feel a need to redouble muscular Zionism as the essential tactic.
There is an iron wall logic that automatically views nonpeaceful Palestinians as the enemy. There is a political reality that Israeli centrist parties or voters will not see a need to declare its borders without a major Palestinian concession (on Right of Return specifically, or possibly on Jerusalem as well) and without a border the momentum of the continued “drip, drip, drip” of West Bank permissiveness of the settler movement will continue without a clear declaration of the long term goal of a specific border.
It is still unclear to me what to do or where to stand vis a vis boycotters of Israel and where to stand vis a vis Netanyahu.
As a rule those Jews who express a sympathy with the boycott movement exude minimal Jewish feeling. I am not saying they are not Jewish, but for every Shmuel who knows his Talmud and Jewish history, there are 30 to 50 Jews who have a chip on their shoulder vis a vis anything Jewish, or an absolute coolness and lack of apparent sentiment towards issues that animate “traumatized Jews”, if indeed we are splitting the Jewish entity into two different entities and for simplicity sake we call them- those who wish to toss all Jewish ritual onto a bonfire and those who are obsessed with Jewish identity.
President Obama chose Shapiro to argue the pro Israel credentials of Obama to the Jewish voting (or donating) public. That Shapiro would speak to a Jewish group we should admit to be an unusual (compared to ambassadors to other countries) but natural part of his job description: ambassador to the American Jews, so he is invited to speak and he does and he doesn’t merely deal in platitudes he speaks to a specific Jewish concern: continuity. A concern that is scorned by this web site for the most part, but not a concern that is scorned by thinking Jewish people. As the Jewish people change, with a large contingent marrying out and losing religion in their life and with it a reason to associate with a religion, there will be those who will say: I am the change and others who will say “How will we adapt to this change?”
I favor Israel negotiating immediately on the issue of Israel’s border with the neighbor between it and Jordan on its east, based upon the 1967 boundaries. Thus I leapfrog over the Netanyahu position, and probably over the Israeli centrist position as well.
There is very little that one could have realistically expected from Obama in his first term in office. certainly he has been more a reactor than an actor regarding the Arab spring and certainly the border negotitations that I favor before any Arab concessions on any issue is perfectly in keeping with the attitude conveyed by the Obama administration.
I am not sure that my position is “logical”. The logical Zionist position might be pro Cast Lead. I view Cast Lead as the wrong direction in terms of its harshness and with the rejection of a military campaign comes the possibility of rejecting the militaristic inclination of the entire non Magnes wing of Zionism. That might be the logical next step and I am not willing to take a step in that “logical” direction either.
“True George Bush Jr. came into the presidency concerned about one thing: lowering taxes for the rich”
Are you seriously suggesting that he had an idea, let alone actually being concerned about it?
So let me get this straight — Jews who act out against the occupation aren’t “Jewish” enough as far as you’re concerned?
You honestly think being Jewish means automatic allegiance to Israel above everything else? You know, some day soon you’re going to have to decide which passport you hold really represents you.
“So let me get this straight — Jews who act out against the occupation aren’t “Jewish” enough as far as you’re concerned?”
Not when they don’t do shit outside of going to pro-Palestinian rallies and proclaiming their Jewishness while actively knocking everything they can about the religion, from circumcision to marriage to synagogue practice. This is nothing to do with political allegiance. It has everything with do with rejecting a part of one’s identity only to cynically resurrect it for the sole purpose of promoting a partisan political cause. It’s hypocrisy and misrepresentation.
Again, very well said.
I would only add that they not only reject the religious aspect of Judaism, they also reject the national aspect of Judaism. So what aspect exactly of Judaism are they left with?
“Again, very well said.
I would only add that they not only reject the religious aspect of Judaism, they also reject the national aspect of Judaism. So what aspect exactly of Judaism are they left with?”
ROTFLSKJAO!!! And so says our resident “atheist Jew”!
The “aspect of Judaism that they are left with” is the “right” to fly to Israel tomorrow and become citizens, while Palestinians who were born in Israel cannot even visit.
hophmi is building his case on a strawman here, and so are you. i’ve already debunked this giving examples. you’re moving into anti semitic territory by denying people’s jewishness. using a broad sweep to make a big leap assuming jews who “act out against the occupation” or are anti or non zionists “reject the religious aspect of Judaism” (whatever that is supposed to mean because what is judaism if not religion?) is a cheap smear. don’t think you can twist a bunch of bogus hypotheticals to conflate jews are not jews for your own political gain. you don’t own jewishness.
“i’ve already debunked this giving examples. you’re moving into anti semitic territory by denying people’s jewishness.”
Please. You’re distorting the argument, and you know it. No one is denying anyone’s jewishness here. I’m simply questioning the credibility of those who claim Jewishness in the name of pro-Palestinian activism while rejecting and actively arguing against Jewish practices like circumcision, synagogue attendance, and marriage. It’s about credibility and cynicism, not the technical question of whether a person had a Jewish mother or not.
“using a broad sweep to make a big leap assuming jews who “act out against the occupation” or are anti or non zionists “reject the religious aspect of Judaism” (whatever that is supposed to mean because what is judaism if not religion?) is a cheap smear.”
Oh, it is? Then why does this blog spend time criticizing circumcision, proclaim how great it is to marry outside the faith, and criticize any serious attempt by American Jews to give their children comprehensive Jewish educations? Forget about the technical requirements for being Jewish. Let’s talk simple labels, because for the pro-Palestinian movement, the Judaism of these activists is a convenient label, not a religious identity. If someone was elected to Congress as a registered Democratic and was anti-abortion, favored laissez-faire economic policies, anti-affirmative action, and voted with the Republicans 99 percent of the time, would you call him a Democrat because that’s his registered party? So why would you call a person who was born to a Jewish mother a Jew if he hates synagogues, observes nothing, sees no problem raising his kids in another religion or without any religion, speaks out against circumcision, and criticizes all attempts to give Jewish children a Jewish education?
>> I would only add that they not only reject the religious aspect of Judaism, they also reject the national aspect of Judaism. So what aspect exactly of Judaism are they left with?
It’s been made abundantly clear on this site that the national aspect of the Jews is their collective-ness. No matter where they are in the world, Jews are part of the Jewish “nation”.
Israel represents merely a geographical grouping of this Jewish “nation”. Rejection of Israel cannot, therefore, be considered a rejection of the Jewish “nation”.
Or is eee suggesting that some Jews get to tell other Jews whether they are Jews, aren’t Jews or, perhaps, simply aren’t Jewish enough?
“Or is eee suggesting that some Jews get to tell other Jews whether they are Jews, aren’t Jews or, perhaps, simply aren’t Jewish enough?”
My relatives went on a trip to Israel, and brought back a bottle of Sinai sand. You could put the bottle in the center of a circle of Jews, spin it, and it would come to rest pointing at the self-hater in the group.
First time I saw it in use, I thought it was some kind of kissing game, but no such luck.
Well, well. Hophmi’s and eeee’s position sound anti-semitic to me. Denying Jewishness on account of their opinions? After all the mystical mumbo jumbo about bloodlines and ethnicity. And they wonder why they aren’t taken seriously here? Seems Jewishness is an elastic concept, stretched to fit whatever it needs to. They mean Zionism of course, not the same thing as Jewishness, which seems to irk them.
>> You could put the bottle in the center of a circle of Jews, spin it, and it would come to rest pointing at the self-hater in the group.
Very diplomatic of you not to say who the bottle ended up pointing to… ;-)
“Hophmi’s and eeee’s position sound anti-semitic to me. Denying Jewishness on account of their opinions?”
Trust me, no one takes your definitions of antisemitism seriously.
“And they wonder why they aren’t taken seriously here?”
You people do nothing but endlessly discuss and bash what we say, so I think you take us pretty seriously.
“Seems Jewishness is an elastic concept, stretched to fit whatever it needs to.”
Seems to me that you’re the one promoting that idea, and we’re the ones saying that it actually means something other than showing up to a Pro-Palestinian rally.
“I would only add that they not only reject the religious aspect of Judaism”
What ‘religious aspects” of Judaism are people here rejecting eee?
@eee
Noted intellect and reluctant Jew Albert Einstein (he was more a deist and said he did not observe Jewish religious practice) said that being a Jew meant a shared set of histories and cultural affiliations or something to that effect … it is not a race, not a nationality, not even a religion
Jewish law is what determines who is a Jew and that is set by the rabbis, who can decide how they wish, so it is subjective (this set of rabbis might decide one thing, another set another decision) – as is all religion, ultimately – a crap-shoot of made-up stuff and make-believe that serves to render people into sheep and elevate a priest-class to take advantage of them
… add to the mix a supremacist set of texts written into your “law” and you have license to bahave inhumanely and cruelly toward other human beings all with the justifications of your “god”
Albert Einstein was not noted as a scholar of Judaism.
“What ‘religious aspects” of Judaism are people here rejecting eee?”
I reject just about all of them (except the idea that morality is more than local opinion) but I’m not a Jew, so my Jewishness isn’t in question.
Albert Einstein was also pretty outspoken against the founding of Israel and US support for Zionist terrorism.
“Albert Einstein (he was more a deist ”
Considering he said “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists” I would say he was more of a pantheist. Deists tend to think of a more personal god.
This letter from Einstein to Gutkind is interesting.
link to lettersofnote.com
we are left with the aspect of judaism that has to do with always siding with the slave, never with the slavemaster, even (better, especially) when, as in occupied palestine, the slavemaster is a jew
WJ,
I understand what you are saying very well. Don’t be hard on yourself trying to find “logic” in your position as logic is not the issue here. There are no axioms or evident truths that we can deduce our correct actions from. What we should do depends very much on what the future will bring and in order to decide correctly we have to forecast the future correctly. How likely is that? Not very likely.
So do not beat up on yourself. Nobody knows what should be done exactly. All we can do is rely on the democratic process knowing that any decision that comes out is far from perfect but that is the best we can do. We will just have to muddle along and be resilient.
“There are no axioms or evident truths that we can deduce our correct actions from.”
You betcha, mien Herr the only thing you can count on in this crazy, mixed-up world is the power of the will, and the will to power.
There is no reason in the world why the Jews shouldn’t take on the entire world. After all, ultimately we can reproduce faster than our enemies can kill us, huh?
The only thing we can count on in political issues are processes, not outcomes. We can determine how we make decisions, not what the results of these decisions will be. There is too much uncertainty about the future. Therefore, we should commit to the democratic process but not expect miracles. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst system except for all the others. How you take this obvious statement and interpret it as wanting to take on the world is beyond me.
Well eee your group doesn’t practice democracy..so your outcome will be will dictated by that other worse system.
I believe what WJ is saying essentially, is that there is a mainstream conception of what he calls “Jewish feeling.” What this means apparently is that Jews who do not consider the entire history of Jewish suffering when they partake in political action are less Jewish. Being Jewish means that you refrain from certain political actions against Israel.
being jewish no more means that you refrain from political actions against israel, than being german (outside germany) during the nazi era meant that you refrained from taking action against the nazis. Willy Brandt, for example, although forced to flee germany to continue his anti-nazi activities, returned to his homeland post ww2 and went on to became chancellor of west germany. although zionists are desperately trying to silence critics of their settler entity israel, so far it hasn’t been necessary for jewish anti-zionists to flee either america or the zionist entity. dissolusionment of jewish youth from the shame that is zionism will hasten the day when the u.s-israel special relationship ends, probably within the next year or so, what with the future now racing towards us
Good freakin’ Lord, what a waste of space and words you are “Wondering” Jew!
How long do you think you can play that same tune “I’m undecided now”?
Say, by the way, have you moved out of the settlement yet?
Why don’t you go and try to sell that “undecided” crap to people dumb enough to fall for it?
Mooser,
And what exactly are you doing about your convictions except writing on this blog? Are you out there in the Jewish community trying to change minds? What does having an opinion matter if you do nothing about it?
“What does having an opinion matter if you do nothing about it?”
As usual, you don’t know what you are talking about, chump. My opinions and proposals for Jews and Judaism are available to all, and free for the asking, and I stand ready to enlighten the entire Jewish community.
I do ask that enquirers enclose a SASE and a 9×11 manilla shipping envelope. I’m not made of money, you know.
But the opinions and proposals are free and available to all. I’d sure love to give you, for instance some of my ideas on where you should go, and what you should do when you get there.
“But the opinions and proposals are free and available to all. ”
You should charge for them. They’re worth it.
“I favor Israel negotiating immediately on the issue of Israel’s border with the neighbor between it and Jordan on its east, based upon the 1967 boundaries.”
ROTFL! For God’s sake, don’t give it a name Wonderful! If you give it a name, it might exist!
i favor israel’s unconditioinal surrender to the palestinians and their worldwide supporters, as per nazi germany’s surrender to the allies in 1945
“i favor israel’s unconditioinal surrender to the palestinians and their worldwide supporters, as per nazi germany’s surrender to the allies in 1945″
I favor you getting your head checked.
WJ,
You have isolated something you call “Jewish feeling”, which you believe tends to abound in Jewish supporters of Israel, while generally lacking (30-50 to 1!) in Jewish supporters of BDS. Could it be that you are advancing a circular argument? Perhaps what you call “Jewish feeling” is in fact the difference between a “my people/country right or wrong” attitude and a more critical, universalist approach to issues such as human and civil rights. Is this any different from say anti- or pro-immigrant attitudes in Europe? Would you say that the France-for-the-French crowd has greater “French feeling” than those who fight for immigrant rights?
Adjusting for the circular argument, what leads you to believe that the vast majority (again, 30-50 to 1!) of non-Zionist I/P-active Jews (NZIPAJ) are so close to the “those who wish to toss all Jewish ritual onto a bonfire” extreme of the simplified spectrum you have created? I can see the logic in the argument that someone who hates everything about Judaism and Jewishness comes off as a bit of a prat advocating anything “as a Jew”, but what leads you to believe that this is somehow typical of NZIPAJs? I haven’t done any surveys (nor has anyone else, to the best of my knowledge), but I would guess that most NZIPAJs fall somewhere in the middle, in terms of attitudes to ritual, and probably exhibit a stronger sense of Jewish identity than those who show little or no interest in I/P either way.
And finally, except for the really extreme cases (the “prat factor”), what do the values we score on the Yidometer (calibrated how?) really matter in the context of our criticism and even extreme criticism – as Jews – of things that are done in the name of all Jews (whether we like it or not), and clearly colour Jewish and non-Jewish perceptions of Jews and Judaism?
BTW, I’ve read The Finkler Question (on your prompting), and hope to write a post on the subject (beli neder, of course).
That is basically it. Are you human first, or Jew first?
An Israeli writer observed that one cannot be really true Jew outside Israel — although one can approximate. I think he meant “Jew first” kind of Jew. There are many things that sages enjoin Jews to do because they can inflame goyim and turned out to be bad for Jews. Only in Israel one can truly do all those things and if it makes goyim upset, so there.
“Human first” Jews think that certain things enjoined by sages and more modern authorities are simply wrong, and they should be avoided even if it means less money, land, weapons etc. for Jews.
Strangely enough, it is impossible to say where Dan Shapiro stands. For that, I see something positive in his speech. He did not mention “settlement”, “border”, “unilateral”, “Netanyahu”* etc. Would Obama endorse tomorrow “transfer to Jordan”, his speech would be invalid, but would Obama endorse freezing aid to Israel until all outposts are evacuated, it would fit. And a huge zone in between.
Note that a French envoy with Jewish background was fired for criticising “unilateral approach” of PA, quite contrary to the current French policy. Dan Shapiro’s speech could be safely uttered by a French ambassador. Unlike any pro-Israel speech by an elective representative or a candidate. Expect a truckload of manure from more vigilant Zionists. This is a true “Bambi” speech.
From that point of view, dwelling on Zionist education, thriving trade etc. is just filling the space. The silences are less visible to some as a result, but important and noted where needed.
Perhaps it is my wishful thinking, but this is how I see “Bambi” line. Bambi is cute, her heart is in the right place, and wolves are ready to tear her apart. So she is careful. Her huge beautiful eyes tell volumes, the mouth, much less. Right now, it goes like that: “I am opposed to unilateral recognition of statehood for Palestinian (hiccup) but of course I support that statehood (more hiccups). If it will be out for vote in Security Council we will veto [eye speak: please, please, do not do it in Security Council because it will make me vomit].”
———-
Well, Netanyahu is mentioned, but not in a way that would make Netanyahu happy.
“the values we score on the Yidometer ”
If they make these in Israel, wouldn’t they come under BDS restrictions?
If they make these in Israel, wouldn’t they come under BDS restrictions?
Well, there’s the Israeli “Yehudometer”, manufactured by Israel Aircraft Industries on the settlement of Ma’aleh Gerah, but it’s practically useless, as it is calibrated (with an inbuilt explosive device set to go off at any attempt to recalibrate) to measure only the swelling of the heart at the sight of the Israeli flag, a Jewish soldier or a picture of Benjamin Netanyahu.
There are a wide variety of Yidometers manufactured around the world and sold under various brand names – such as the Sephardic Judeometro, the French/North African Juifomètre, the Italian Giudiometro, etc. I think there’s even an Aussie Jewdownunderometer (not recognised by Lubavitch).
hello Shmuel,
There’s no question that the 30-1 or 50-1 ration was exaggerated or a goozmah. (Is that an Aramaic word that has penetrated both Yiddish and Hebrew?)
I based my comment on the commenters here on Mondoweiss, the two Israelis beside yourself who comment here- Danaa and Avi have never expressed anything positive regarding any Jewish ritual nor have they ever said anything positive about the idea of Jewish continuity. They can correct me if I am wrong.
As far as the nonIsraeli Jews here on MW, in the discussion about circumcision, only the Zionists considered this as a mark of Jewish continuity. On issues of Jewish continuity, only Zionists have expressed support for the concept of Jewish continuity.
Who would you point to in the comments or from Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz, who has expressed Jewish feeling towards Jewish continuity or any Jewish ritual? So my 30-1 ratio was rhetorical and inaccurate, but here on this web site, who are the nonZionists or the anti Zionists who advocate or have advocated any aspect of Jewish continuity or any Jewish ritual or book of Jewish learning?
So to you… Judaism is all about Jews supporting A) Israel and B) circumcision. And that’s it?
WJ,
Yes, guzma is Aramaic.
So you have an Israeli sample of 3. I would add Elliot, who is a very Jewish Jew and has written here about subjects relating to Jewish ritual and continuity. I don’t recall any posts by Avi on such subjects but, of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Danaa has written about the split she sees and foresees between Israeli and non-Israeli Judaisms, from what appears to be more than a passing personal interest in the outcome.
As for the non-Israelis, Phil has written about his sense of Jewish identity and aspirations for Jewish future – which includes intermarriage, but so does the Judaism of so many American Jews (even active and affiliated Jews), Zionist and non.
Only a handful here have expressed opinions on the subject of circumcision and, generally-speaking, except for intermarriage (part of the Jewish “norm” in the US and around the world) and I/P (naturally), most topics of what you might consider Jewish interest go undiscussed here – certainly by the vast majority of posters and commenters. So what do you really know about the Jews who post and comment on this blog, and what does that say about NZIPAJs (non-Zionist I/P-active Jews) in general?
And back to my question: Apart from rare cases of truly Judeophobic NZIPAJs (only two come to mind, and neither consider themselves Jews, so they aren’t part of the “as Jews” category anyway), why does it matter?
WJ, as a rule, secular people don’t advocate religious ritual or religious learning.
WJ,
You connect ‘Jewish feeling’ implicitly to support for Israel.
You say the majority of Jews criticizing Israel do not partake in any traditional Jewish rituals or have anything positive to say about Jewish continuity (tribalism). Or that said Jews are not knowledgeable about the history of Jewish suffering.
So basically, they are less Jewish.
Except, it’s not really an issue of Jewishness for you. Your irritation is that they criticize Israel and support BDS.
So you put forth these guidelines to undermine their Jewish ‘feeling’. Hence, these ‘subversive’ Jews aren’t really Jews in any meaningful sense (to you). Hence, their criticism of Israel is alien and not informed by Jewishness.
I really have no idea what your point is since your post was so disjointed.
The only thing that matters is whether the criticism itself is valid.
as a rule, secular people don’t advocate religious ritual or religious learning.
Sure they do. They just call it “culture” or “tradition” or “history” or “community” or “family” or something. Often, they will change and adapt it to suit their non-religious purposes and needs – not entirely unlike the evolution of religions themselves.
Sure they do.
Shmuel, are you familiar with Talal Asad‘s oeuvre? It feels he might support your argument. But I am really not familiar with it.
are you familiar with Talal Asad‘s oeuvre?
No, I’m not, but it looks fascinating. Thanks!
given the choice between jewish continuity and survival of life on earth, what does choosing the former offer anyone except the opportunity to be the one who has to answer the call for the last one out to please turn off the lights?
Shmuel- It need not matter to you or to anyone else, I mentioned it in the context of not knowing where I belong (where I stand or what to do) in the boycott to Netanyahu spectrum.
I respect the moral problem presented by Israel. Israel was supposed to be an answer, but to a very large degree it poses a question.
But at this point of time (or at the point of time that I wrote the original comment) the question that I “need” answered, is from those who oppose Zionism: “What is your strategy for the survival of the Jewish people?” Orthodox have the clearest strategy (clearer than Zionism). Zionists have a strategy. Conservative have a strategy that isn’t working. And Reform have a strategy that is “we are disappearing as a people, let’s make the best out of it on our way out.”
Just because one is eagerly anticipating going to the Jewish people’s funeral and saying Kaddish over the Jewish people’s grave, does not make one a loyal Jew. Assimilationism which is Phil’s predominant attitude towards all things Jewish (that do not include Zionism) is certainly not a recommendation for one’s advocacy of Jewish interests.
Phil’s analogy: “I am just like the alienated educated Arabs who left the West and headed home to push for democracy in their homelands. I too have returned to my people to undo their exceptionalism,” was the underlying cause for my comments. I think the analogy of wishing to attend the funeral for Jewishness is more apt than the analogy of those who returned to their homelands to overthrow dictators.
But why does it matter to you, WJ?
If you’re asking me about my “strategy for the survival of the Jewish people”, I have none, but in the long run, I don’t believe anyone really does. If I understand you correctly, you have rejected the three-streamed religious survival strategies. You won’t get any argument from me there (although I do appreciate their respective approaches in other ways). You seem reluctant however, to let go of Zionism (as wary and critical as you may be of it), in the absence of a better alternative.
Mimah nafshakh – as your Talmud teachers undoubtedly used to say. Either the Zionist “experiment” will fail physically, through war or mass emigration or both – or it will be a resounding success, perpetually enforcing its hegemony in the region. If it fails, it will not have been a very good survival strategy. And if it succeeds, by what means will it have done so and will it resemble the Jewish people you would like to see survive? Can you envision any action, any point, at which you might say, if this is what my people is going to do and be, I would rather we didn’t survive as a nation? The status quo doesn’t strike me as particularly stable, and the various peace-making strategies on or under the table are not convincing, to say the least.
Personally, I find the imperatives of the present (and the past) far more compelling than long-term “survival strategies”.
The last part of your comment strikes me as more “guzma”. Phil was estranged, felt it was enough to be an American (and all of the other things apart from Judaism that make up his identity), but got a good look at what was going on “inside” and felt the need to take responsibility and to “return”, in order to fight for something that had suddenly become important to him. OK, so he used a little hyperbole too, comparing himself to ex-pat Arabs, but “wishing to attend the funeral for Jewishness”? Really?
Shmuel: I hear you loud and clear, as always, but I do think WJ is raising an important point. I do think it would be a tragedy if several thousand years of Jewish history/culture/tradition gradually dissipated or assimilated completely. (I feel the same way about other cultures and languages, including small ones in the Amazon rainforest or highland New Guinea.)
Of course, despite what the alarmists say, Judaism is not disappearing. But I do think the (much smaller) Parsi religion/culture is actually shrinking, so I can understand WJ’s concern.
I do think that Zionism, in practice, is doing two things:
1) It is alienating diaspora Jews, particularly among the young.
2) Within Israel, it is twisting “Judaism” into something that is militaristic and unrecognizable.
>> WJ: “What is your strategy for the survival of the Jewish people?”
Why should there be a strategy? Jews who want to continue being Jewish can do so. Those who don’t can stop. If Judaism survives, great; if it doesn’t – because of attrition, not because of slaughter* – no biggie.
(*Please do not cue the Holocaust soundtrack. That would be so trite. Thank you.)
I like Canada. If it continues to be, I’m happy to continue being Canadian. If it ceases to be – and as long as I can remain part of a secular, egalitarian and democratic society that respects human rights – no biggie.
In my immediate family, there will be no one to carry on the family name. It might be nice if there were, but there isn’t. No biggie.
With or without Jews, the world will go on. With or without Canadians, the world will go on. With or without eljays, the world will go on. Why get hung up that Jews or Canadians or eljays should “survive”?
The concern should be that humanism, respect, love, kindness, morality, human rights, etc. should survive. If the survival of Jews trumps the survival and realization of all of the above concepts, you (“Jewish survivalists” in general, not WJ specifically) have got some issues to work out.
I do think it would be a tragedy if several thousand years of Jewish history/culture/tradition gradually dissipated or assimilated completely. (I feel the same way about other cultures and languages, including small ones in the Amazon rainforest or highland New Guinea.)
Of course it would be a tragedy. I mourn the loss of Yiddish culture and of Middle-Eastern Jewish cultures – for which Zionism and the State of Israel bear no small responsibility. I mourn the loss of Ethiopian Jewish culture and the cultures of other ancient Jewish communities destroyed by immigration to Israel (willing or unwilling, free or manipulated). I mourn the loss and trivialisation of much of “diaspora” Jewish culture – replaced by Zionism and Israeli culture of the most maudlin and/or saccharine variety, or by political advocacy and financial support for crimes against humanity. I mourn these immeasurable losses every day of my life.
What continuity? What survival? A racist, militaristic melting pot that teaches Jews to despise their own heritage or pretend that nothing of value was ever created by Jews in the two thousand years of their “exile” or that their only legacy is the legacy of eternal victimhood? Zionism and Israel have done their very best to eliminate and denigrate all Jewish culture that is not Zionist (that is the vast majority of Jewish creativity and civilisation), only to tell us that Israel is the Jewish people’s only hope for survival? Chutzpeh doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Shmuel: Thanks for an extraordinarily eloquent response.
Shmuel, when I read about this peculiar–from my limited perception–fear first, it was called ethnocide and worse than the Holocaust.
But what I am slightly wondering is, why Wondering didn’t help to add his own offspring to the big old Jewish family among the nations. If I may wonder, but maybe I get his vita wrong.
perfect reply, Shmuel, really perfect.
>> JN: “Shmuel: Thanks for an extraordinarily eloquent response.”
+1.
Shmuel,
Smart, to the point, and encapsulates what so many of us here think.
“I do think it would be a tragedy if several thousand years of Jewish history/culture/tradition gradually dissipated or assimilated completely. (I feel the same way about other cultures and languages, including small ones in the Amazon rainforest or highland New Guinea.)”
Why? Shall nothing ever change? Do people have to stay locked in to “cultures” for ever?
I thought “cultures” were created to try to make it possible for people to live well. If changing a culture makes a better life possible, why cling to the old ways?
Leander- If you have a question for me, you can address it to me. Until now we have had no history of rudeness between us, so I see no need to throw the question to the heavens rather than straight to me.
Can a coward on the battlefield define bravery. Why not? So I do not measure up to my own ideal of Jewish loyalty. Granted. That does not deny me the possibility of defining Jewish loyalty.
Shmuel- The audience for Shapiro’s speech was the Jewish People Policy Institute, so my comments were appropriate to the original post.
I am concerned about the survival of the Jewish people, despite my paltry personal contributions to that survival. I assume you are not questioning the validity of my concern, but are instead questioning why such a concern would tip my foreign policy in any direction- towards the boycott movement or away from it. I suppose from a purely logical point of view, if I felt that the boycott movement would save Israel from Avigdor Lieberman Zionism and push it in the direction of Moshe Sharett Zionism, there is no reason to question the loyalty of my hypothetical fellow boycotters based upon the need to move from A. Lieberman Zionism to M. Sharett Zionism. But at this point in time I don’t see the boycott movement as the key to the future, nor do I see its goals as moving from one form of Zionism to another. The goal of the boycott movement is to move from A. Lieberman Zionism to Magnes Zionism or maybe more accurately to Haniyeh Zionism or Nasrallah Zionism or Meshal Zionism.
The lack of concern of the boycotters for the actual outcome of the conflict fits in with their lack of concern regarding the Jewish future in other fronts. And logical or not, that is another reason why I raise the issue.
“so I see no need to throw the question to the heavens rather than straight to me.”
you are of course correct. It was very impolite. If you like, I am sorry.
concerning your response: I’ll meditate on the connection between Jewish loyalty & the strategy for the survival of the Jewish people.
You see, I never ever worried about even the survival of the branch of my own family, and in fact in time it will be extinct, with my parents, my brother, and sisters gone. There will be only one niece, and considering she already is 28 and childless matters don’t look so well.
WJ,
BDS is not a Zionist movement, or even a Palestinian nationalist movement (although its primary concern is Palestinian rights). It opposes Zionism only insofar as it is incompatible with the principles of human rights and international law. As a movement, it has no interest in transforming Zionism, which is a specifically Jewish concern. Since it does not seek the removal of Israeli Jews however, those Jews and others who care about their future (including its broader, Jewish cultural and religious significance), may further whatever vision or ideal they like. Jerry Haber (Magnes Zionist) has his vision (based on the continued existence of a vibrant Jewish society in I/P), Phil Weiss has his, and the Anarchists Against the Wall have theirs. Most supporters of BDS probably don’t care about the future of Judaism, and why should they? Some Jewish advocates of BDS (like Phil) associate it with “saving” Judaism, and some have little or no interest in the future of Jewish culture, or the “Jewish soul”. I disagree that BDS-supporters lack concern for the outcome of the conflict. I think it would be fair to assume that most have a pretty clear idea of the kind of solution they would like to see, but that is simply not what the movement is about.
Unless you believe that respect for human rights is incompatible with Jewish continuity (a sad statement in and of itself), there is nothing about BDS or its supporters that would preclude your striving for whatever Judaism-specific goals you like. So where is the problem?
“I disagree that BDS-supporters lack concern for the outcome of the conflict. I think it would be fair to assume that most have a pretty clear idea of the kind of solution they would like to see, but that is simply not what the movement is about.”
I have to disagree. I think BDS is a partisan cause that is about effectuating a particular conflict outcome, namely, the one-state solution. We saw it again yesterday as Omar Barghouti expressed concern with UDI because he felt the Palestinians were implicitly accepting Israel and rejecting the right of return. BDS is a one-state project. Its adherents are overwhelming opposed to the State of Israel’s existence. They support policies which amount to a one-state solution – unlimited right of return for Palestinian refugees, and so on. They target Israel as a whole – not just the territories. And they include in their ranks many antisemites, who target the Jews.
You’re absolutely correct when you say BDSers do not care about the future of Judaism. Most don’t, except for the antisemites who do care, and hope the Jews disappear either through violence or through complete assimilation. That is exactly why it means zilch when secular assimilated Jews declare that they’re standing up as Jews to oppose Israel, because it’s pretty clear they either don’t give a damn about Judaism or hate it completely.
The BDS movement in Palestine will be no different than in SA. Once their objectives are met they will abandon the Palestinians, just like they abandoned SA after apartheid.
Yes, all true.
“We” abandoned black South Africans, the poor little lambs. I mean how are they supposed to get on in the world without the big strong white man to watch over them…? Everyone knows only white people are capable of running their own affairs, of handling the great burdens of freedom, liberty and self-determination.
DBG, based on the phrasing of your comment, at least you’re coming to grips with the fact that the BDS Movement’s objectives will be met.
Shmuel- Those who support BDS are allowed by the US Constitution (maybe even the UN Charter) and by the morality of the heavens and the earth to support BDS. Those who oppose BDS likewise.
My support for Israel at this point in time probably has more to do with my family living in Israel more than any other cause. I view the situation in Israel as inherently unstable. My primary concern with the instability is in regards to bombs going off like they did in the years 2000 to 2004. My secondary concern is in regards to my nephews and niece serving in Tzahal. My tertiary concern is in regards to the long term viability of Israel. My fourth concern is in regards to the moral viability of Israel. My third and my fourth concerns are intertwined.
If Obama gets reelected I expect some major attempts by him to accomplish his goals for I/P. And then my thoughts will be on tomorrow’s headline. If Obama is defeated by a Republican then the dynamics will be different in many regards except for the fact that my thoughts will be on tomorrow’s headline, rather than on taking a position among protestors on the streets of New York or the streets of Jerusalem.
If Zalman Shachter Shalomi came out in favor of the boycott that would rock my world. But when a bunch of people who don’t really give a good god damn about anything Jewish advocate for the boycott it doesn’t really rock my world. That’s what I was saying in regards to the lack of Jewish feeling of those who favor BDS. I am not saying anything very deep, although I am mostly communicating my emotional reactions rather than a logical imperative. If this is too illogical for you to deal with, azoy.
If this is too illogical for you to deal with, azoy.
What do you think I am, a Litvak*? OK, so my inner Litvak does get the better of me from time to time, but I hear you. So how many ehrliche yidden supporting BDS would it take to convince you (pending Reb Zalman’s epiphany)? And if that’s still too Litvish, does it help that I believe with all my Jewish heart and soul that it is the right thing to do?
* Translation for all the “shanty Irish in the cheap seats”: Sort of a Jewish Vulcan.
““True George Bush Jr. came into the presidency concerned about one thing: lowering taxes for the rich”–WJ
“Are you seriously suggesting that he had an idea, let alone actually being concerned about it?”-RoHa
I think WJ is right. That was Bush’s goal and it’s the sort of idea someone with his background and connections would have. Bush was (is) lazy and anti-intellectual, but he wasn’t necessarily stupid, even if his intelligence was of that low animal cunning variety that one might expect to find in a war criminal.
I think it rather says something, which of course WJ likes to tiptoe around, that Bush’s single-minded policy made him a staunch ally of Zionists. So much so that now the Obama administration pretty much has had to continue every policy Bush enacted, or else the primarily Zionist, Jewish donorship of the Democratic Party will defund said party.
that makes no sense, Bush was a Republican. Obama has to continue Bush policies so the democrats will elect him?
Yes. Militarism has been rendered non-partisan, It may even be that the mystery around 9/11, the lack-of-investigation, the lousy official story, make Americans FEAR an inside job and rally-round-the flag as militarists in an effort to fight off the nagging questions about Bush-admin co-operation in the attack. wouldn’t do for Americans to allow anti-American thoughts to surface: they must be fought down. This is like the fierceness of anti-gay emotion and speech on the part of straight men who have gay tendencies which they are uncomfortable with — gotta fight them down by exaggerated and hysterical expressions of anti-gayness.
Republican, Democrat, same foreign policy. Partisan issues are meaningless straw men most of the time. Abortion has nothing to do with running a country. Anybody who makes these non-issues decisive factors in voting is a moron.
examples of cognitive dissonance crippling the intellect
Oh, Palestine, don’t complain, you’re being bombed by people who vote!
I agree with Ambassador Shapiro!
With this little switcheroo:
I think ALL American kids in public schools should learn about zionism: They should learn about Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall doctrine;
they should be taught how zionists in the US stole/bought US military surplus to beef up Israel’s military, so that Ben Gurion KNEW that Israel could defeat anything Arabs had to defend themselves with;
American school children should add another “Apollo” to their understanding of American history — they should be taught that Zalman Shapira engaged in some still unexplained transactions involving nuclear materials, at his company in Apollo, Pa, materials that likely went toward clandestine development of Israel’s nuclear weapons.
Pictures of Palestinian children burned with white phosphorus launched by Israeli soldiers should grace the walls of American classrooms; American school children should discuss the rules of war, and the international norms governing attacks on civilians, and the taking of lands belonging to others.
American school children should be required to write an essay on the requirements of the Foreign Agents registration act, and take a position whether Israel’s agents in the US should or should not be required to register as foreign agents.
By all means, teach American school children the history of zionism — how zionists worked with the Nazi Party to transfer that much wealth from Germany to Palestine that at a time when the rest of the world — including US and Germany — were suffering from Depression, zionists in Palestine were the most prosperous people in the world.
Let’s get it all out there, on the record; every American fully conversant on the impact of the huge cohort of impoverished and unskilled Jews who migrated from Russia to Germany and Hungary, overwhelming the economies of the natives of those states, at the same time that (Germans) were laboring under war debts imposed on them by Versailles treaty, which was heavily influenced by Woodrow Wilson’s zionist advisors.
“impact of the huge cohort of impoverished and unskilled Jews who migrated from Russia to Germany and Hungary, “
Hey, that’s my people! Oh we were nobody special, just did a little thieving, some low level fencing, and there were a few attempts at brothel-keeping and pimping. We didn’t meet with much success, and American beckoned. And so here I am.
Sure, it’s not much to brag about, but I just tell people (the bastards will ask impertinent question, I never ask people those kinds of questions, it’s embarrassing to be so obviously lied to) I’m from Peru (You know, Peru. Poland +Russia!)
So was it wrong for the U.S. to insert the UN into the dispute between Palestinian Jews and Arabs in 1947? Should the dispute then also have been resolved through direct negotiations between the two parties?
Younger American Jews feel disconnected to Israel because young people are aware of the truth. Nothing can hide on the Internet and further brainwashing will not stick. 63+ years of brainwashing is finally wearing off.
Right on the money charon
As a young Jew I can tell you that you are pretty far from the truth. This is the narrative you guys are trying to push, but it isn’t reality.
Then what is the truth?
I’m basing my conclusion on polls, statistics, research, and speaking to a lot of young jews. That’s the general consensus.
what is the truth?
you’ve got to be carefully taught
These utterly hopeless zionists are getting more desperate on a daily basis. They are incapable of accepting the fact that project Israel has officially failed. So instead of coming to terms with this and consequently changing course via policies and tactics, they devise new ways of putting lipstick on the occupational pig.
Let these idiots throw more of their money in the toilet cuz one thing is for sure: Birthright, zionist education, and similar attempts to make murder and discrimination look attractive will convince very few in the increasingly knowledgeable generation of young Jews
“will convince very few in the increasingly knowledgeable generation of young Jews”
I’m not sure it has anything to do with being knowledgable, after all, look at me. But the supply of Jews who are or are willing to be brutalised is getting thin, and it’s down to the normal percentage of socio and psycho-paths produced by chance in any culture, and that’s not enough.
The only hope for Zionism is a world-wide revival of murderous anti-Semitism, the revival of which I’m sure Zionist leaders pray for daily.
not only praying for, but doing everything possible to bring lethal antisemitism back
You can spin it all you want but Israel has nothing to say to the people of the Middle East.
This month, Israel has been fighting
-Turkey on the Mavi Marmara
-Egypt on the Cairo embassy
-The Palestinians on the UN vote
-Its own middle and lower middle classes and poor on J14
And it is losing every one
Israel has 2 embassies in the Middle East. One of them has just been abandoned. It had 2 allies under the umbrella of the US – Turkey and Egypt. Now it has none.
Zionism is dying
Judaism needs to hitch itself to another project.
This is a truly exceptional MW thread. The comments are fascinating to me, a wondering, diaspora-irish goy. I think MLE’s original comment deserves to be a post of its own. I also like the balanced tone and minimum of ad hominems and snarkiness. When someone like WJ lays it all out, doubts and all, as he did, on this forum of all places, I think it shows MW is having a real impact. This thread has really gotten to the essence of the question of what is the righteous jew. Fascinating. I will now get my shanty irish ass back into the cheap seats and continue to watch the battle over the Jewish soul.
There needs to be a blog forum for us wondering diaspora shanty irish where we can examine and argue about our souls. I think I’ll wander down to the neighborhood bar and ask if any of my buddies have heard of one. I’d go ask my priest but I don’t want to interrupt his private counseling sessions for school boys.