Israeli soldier shoots protester in face at close range with teargas canister

NabiSalehprotester
Mustafa Tamimi, a 28-year-old Palestinian from the village of Nabi Saleh, moments before he was shot by the Israeli army and critically injured. “Circled in red are the barrel of the gun and the projectile that hit him,” according to the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee (Photo: Haim Scwarczenberg)

Violence rocked the occupied Palestinian territories today, as a demonstrator in Nabi Saleh was critically injured and Gazans continued to brace Israeli air attacks. Four Gazans were killed in the attacks, including at least one civilian.

6482435069 64edf9cd26 z
Ola Tamimi shouts after watching her brother, Mustafa Tamimi, get shot by the IDF.
(Photo: Anne Paq/Activestills.org)

Mustafa Tamimi, a 28-year-old resident of the village of Nabi Saleh, was shot in the face by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tear-gas canister after apparently throwing stones at an Israeli army vehicle. News of the injury quickly came in through Twitter:

Linatweet

Other Twitter users on the ground in Nabi Saleh claimed that at first, the Israeli army was not allowing them to take Tamimi to the hospital. But their troubles weren’t over when the Israeli army allowed Tamimi to go. A tweet sent from the account of the Active Stills photography collective reported: “One of our photographers and 2 friends of Mostafa Tamimi are detained by Security guards in Beilinson hospital.”

The Popular Struggle Coordination Committee (PSCC) has more on what happened:

Mustafa Tamimi, a 28 year old resident of Nabi Saleh, was shot in the face today, during the weekly protest in the village of Nabi Saleh. He sustained a severe injury to his head, under his right eye, and was evacuated to the Belinson hospital in Petah Tikwa. He is currently anesthetized, breathing through tubes, and his condition is described as serious. Tamimi is undergoing treatment in the trauma ward of the hospital, and is expected to undergo surgery later tonight…

The incident took place in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh today, when dozens gathered for the weekly demonstration in the village, protesting the theft of village lands by the adjacent Jewish-only settlement of Nabi Saleh. After the army dispersed the peaceful march, minor clashes erupted followed by a severe response by Israeli forces. Several people were hit with rubber-coated bullets and directly shot tear gas projectiles. Three were evacuated to the Ramallah hospital for further treatment. One protester was arrested.

The demonstrations, which have been held regularly for the past two years have seen hundreds of injuries to protesters by Israeli forces as well as dozens of arrests carried out with the aim of supressing dissent.

The PSCC posted this video of the aftermath of the shooting. Warning to viewers: It is extremely graphic and disturbing.

An IDF spokesperson, Avital Leibovich, tweeted a photo of a slingshot Tamimi was allegedly using to explain the Israeli army’s actions.

Tamimifamily
Mustafa Tamimi (L) poses for a photo with his parents (front) and brothers in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh, 10.9.2010. (Photo: Activestills)

Meanwhile, there has been an escalation in violence in the Gaza Strip. This latest flare-up was sparked by an Israeli air strike in Gaza that killed Palestinian fighters who Israel says were involved in attacks on Israel originating from Egypt’s Sinai.

Ma’an News has the story:

Prime Minister in Gaza Ismail Haniyeh said Friday that his government was holding intensive talks with regional and international parties to stop Israel’s escalation in attacks on the enclave.

Four Palestinians have been killed since Wednesday and at least 20 injured in a series of airstrikes on Gaza City. The Israeli army expressed regret that civilians were hurt in the attacks, which injured at least seven children.

Speaking after Friday prayers in Gaza City, Haniyeh said Israel’s latest flare up in aggression was preceded by threats of a new military action by Israeli leaders.

About Alex Kane and Philip Weiss

Alex Kane is an assistant editor for Mondoweiss and the World editor for AlterNet. Follow him on Twitter @alexbkane.
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{ 199 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Gellian says:

    I don’t condone shooting people in the face with tear gas canisters, not at all.

    But if it’s a peaceful protest, why was this guy throwing stones?

    For that matter, why do I hear constantly of Palestinians throwing stones at Israelis? It seems a very stupid thing to do, like prodding a rotweiler with a stick. Especially if you want to call your protest ‘peaceful’.

    • Kathleen says:

      flipping the script…standard.

    • Cliff says:

      ‘at Israelis’

      Do you mean Israeli soldiers, Gellian? I could care less that the occupiers aren’t greeted with flowers.

    • eGuard says:

      Gellian: I do [...], but

      Classical trick.

    • Mndwss says:

      I don’t condone using gas against jews, not at all.

      But if Jews protest peacefully, why throw stones at SS soldiers?

      Did the Jews in Germany go to far, prodding the German rotweiler with a stick?

    • Mooser says:

      Gellian, can you imagine what might have happened if one of those stones had hit the “jeep”? The Israeli soldiers inside might have heard a noise! Good God, what kind of barbarians would subject Israeli soldiers to torture like that?

      • Mooser says:

        Oh, never mind Gellian, I apologise for my sarcasm. I read a few more comments, and I must admit, I hadn’t thought about the paint on the armored car being scratched by the stones.

    • MRW says:

      He used a slingshot against an armored truck.

      A rock against an army truck that shouldn’t have been there, should not have been provoking the crowd.

      • Shingo says:

        He used a slingshot against an armored truck.

        Hence he was an existential threat.

        When you see these IDF Dough Boys being such cowards and behaving so appalingly, is it any wonder they were so easily crushed by Hezbollah?

        • Gellian says:

          Shingo, you are basically making my point with your comment, but not the way I think you mean it. You and others around here keep calling these soldiers a bunch of cowards and pussies.

          They aren’t. They’re deadly dangerous.

          That’s why it is extremely foolish to throw stones at them. They’ll kill you for it, as they did this guy.

          And throwing a stone isn’t the kind of symbolic act that will ignite a revolution, the way that Arab fruitseller who self-immolated earlier this year did. (And I am ***not*** suggesting anyone should do that!)

          But throwing a stone at someone who will kill you for it is a futile gesture, and a dangerous one.

          Sorry to see so few around here understand my point.

        • Shingo says:

          IYou and others around here keep calling these soldiers a bunch of cowards and pussies.

          They aren’t. They’re deadly dangerous.

          That’s what makes them dangerous. They are frightened little boys with no training, and it never occurs to you that there might be something fundametlaly wrong with sending such immature people armed with guns to enforce the occupation.

          It never occurs to you that it’s extremely foolish on teh part of their commanders to send them there in the first place.

          Sorry to see so few around here understand my point.

          You’r point is that you see nothing wrong with the presence of armed ISraeli troops in Palestinian teritory.

        • jonah says:

          Indeed, Gellian. Little kids throwing stones against soldiers is a risky provocative game, such as in following classic weekly protest. link to youtube.com
          It begins in supposedly peaceful way, but soon it degenerates into chaos and violence against the police.
          Sad to say, but it seems to be part of the strategy of the Palestinians. And when a young man or boy hurling rocks is struck by a tear gas canister, as in this case, with all cameras focused on the event, they can blame the Israelis for it. All Western media will report the fact, Israel critics will have more daily food for their abysmal criticism and the Palestinians will score propaganda points for their fight, as was intention. That are the rules of the game.

        • Shingo says:

           It begins in supposedly peaceful way, but soon it degenerates into chaos and violence against the police.

          What Jonah leaves out is the part about the thuggery on the part of the police, usually on loving the firing of tear gas or rubber bullets into crowds.

          Sad to say, but has always  been part of the strategy of the Israelis, who have admitted that they are unable to deal with non violent protests.

            And when a young man or boy hurling rocks is struck by a tear gas canister, as in this case, with all cameras focused on the event, they can blame the Israelis for it.

           

          Yes, that has can mister just happened tone minding it’s business when a Palestinians ran into it. The fact that the IDF thug happened to be pointing the barrel of his gun at the victim is purely coincidental.

          I suppose you’re also going to tell us that the footage was carefully edited to leave out the part where the victim ran into the path of the projectile to make Israel look bad.

        • Shingo says:

          Hey Jonah,

          Did you happen to notice the others videos taken from that day?

          No rocks being thrown here, but the IDF thugs are still aiming their guns at protesters 4 feet from them.

          link to youtube.com

          What about this example of IDF bravery?

        • Taxi says:

          jonah,

          I wanna smash that violin of yours in the face of the criminal invading Apartheid israeli colony every time you pull it out of your crack!!

          You’re a frigging immoral murder supporting euro thug!

          You and Apartheid israel will NEVER have peace, not even in death!

          You disgust me as the nazis disgust me!

        • jonah, why is the army there? in their town. they know they walk towards the spring once a week. it is their spring. what business does the army have there? at all? if they want to protect the settlers why don’t they go to the settler side and prevent them from disturbing the towns people from visiting their spring?

          Sad to say, but it seems to be part of the strategy of the Palestinians.

          the strategy? to protest the occupation in their own village? you mean instead of rolling over and playing dead like real men? because if you were in the warsaw ghetto you would have been a nice sweet victims and not disturbed your own ethnic cleansing.

          what planet are you on dude, blaming the victim.

          that soldier didn’t have to protect himself, he could have gotten in his tank of truck or thatever the f it was. he shot at close range into a man’shead and you call it a ” strategy of the Palestinians”.

          you make me sick.

        • jonah, actually i want to thank you for expressing your honesty here. it is only because of the honesty of zionists like yourself the world is viewing the inhumanity of israel’s gruesome zionism and their supporters. you’ve gone off the moral cliff dude and people are waking up to it. gradually for many, but they are waking up.

          the rest of us have been awake for a long long time. that photo of the slingshot? speaks volumes. israel killed david, not goliath. israel is goliath. but you know what? one of these days goliath will go down. it might take awhile but that is the nature of metaphors. what happens over the course of a century happens in only a moment.

          but the world knows israel is the goliath and Mustafa Tamimi, in his death and martyrdom will bring light in a way perhaps his life did not.

          i never understood the concept of ‘christ died for our sins’ until after my sister died..but then i got it. in experiencing death of a loved one, the living awaken and it cleanses us. his death will cleanse us and just make us stronger. and what does israel have? that little slingshot, a photo of a slingshot as the rationale of their murderous occupation forces depriving a village from visiting their own spring.

          disgusting immoral depraved and you defend it. so thank you for showing us your ugliness, much appreciated.

        • Shingo says:

          that soldier didn’t have to protect himself, he could have gotten in his tank of truck or thatever the f it was.

          The soldier already had everything he needed for protection. He was wearing it.

          I have to laugh at those who expect us to believe a rock is can somehow penetrate body armour and helmets designed to stop bullets.

          He didn’t shoot the victim to protect himself. He shot him because he could.

        • Shingo says:

          jonah, why is the army there?

          No doubt on a mission looking for a parther for peace.

          I guess they’ll be back next week for another look.

        • Don says:

          “Sorry to see so few around here understand my point.”

          Nothing personal, Gellian, but I think you do not understand the essence of oppression (Israeli or otherwise).

          For a Palestinian to get him (or her) self killed by an Israeli soldier has nothing to do with whether or not the Palestinian throws stones. “when (Palestinian) children throw stones, he shoots them. When they do not throw stones he also shoots them.”

          This point was precisely articulated by some astute ex-Israelis in an Israeli Imperial news editorial several years ago. Here is the larger quote with link…(Ariel Sharon is mentioned in particular, but the point is quite general…)

          link to israelimperialnews.org

          “What Ariel Sharon is doing now (what he did in Lebanon in 1982, when he was the War Minister, you will find elsewhere in this issue), is nothing new, it’s just a brutalisation and an acceleration of this very same policy. Watch his actions carefully: when children throw stones, he shoots them. When they do not throw stones he also shoots them. When people shoot, he shoots them. When they don’t shoot he still shoots them.”

        • jonah says:

          Annie,
          if you appreciate my honesty, so don’t be angry with me if I will try to be even a little more honest. These kids and young men who throw rocks against the police – the army works here as police force – and not only against the police but also against Israeli Jewish civilians, are not there for their own, but because they are sent there to riot, endangering their safety and life. It would be like if I, being contrary to the city traffic, send my children on the streets to stop the cars against which I fight. Hard to accept for me and civilized people, but I can not help but notice that the Palestinians abuse their children for political and propaganda purposes – and even in warfare. There are many reports on it and you need only to google them. There is a veritable industry of martyrdom orchestrated by the political and cultural authorities within the Palestinian society, aimed at inculcating in the children the spirit of sacrifice in the service of a political and religious cause. Here a single symptomatic example: link to haaretz.com
          This is disconcerting, but a fact beyond doubt. If you would be honest, you would have the moral courage to admit it, but I fear you aren’t.

          Instead of working toward political reconciliation and peace, the Palestinians choose the path of confrontation and belligerency at various levels, and are not afraid to use their kids as tool of fight and propaganda in order to score points in their favor. This sad and narrow-minded, to put it mildly. We know this topic is taboo for you and your friends, who tend to idealize the Palestinian struggle to the romantic image of the resistance of American Indians against the white invaders, with the consequent obsessive demonization of Israel. This vicious cycle is perpetuated as long as people like you will not learn to be more honest with the truth that shows us the reality. Western moral dishonesty helps to keep the Palestinians in their misery, feeding in an artificial dichotomous way the contrapposition to the “evil Zionists.” This mentality is fatal to a solution of the conflict.

          There is another path, which brings hope, not misery. Here an example: link to nswas.com

        • @jonah

          I just had an epiphany!

          You are not being facetious – you actually believe the stuff you write! And I bet, all your co-zionists do also!

          Now, that is a tragedy of epic proportions!

          Since you are so locked in your belief, you discount the perspective from outside your cocoon – which means that none of you will give a second thought to changing anything.

          So, that’s why everything that is discussed here must sound so alien to your POV. It would be futile for any of us to try to change your perspective.

          What that says is that there is nothing we can say or do to save you from the disaster that awaits you, because you don’t believe that such a disaster exists.

          Given that, visiting this site must be very frustrating for you, since the rest of us must seem totally blind and unreasonable to you.

          Wow! Talk about a clash of civilizations! There are none so blind as those who will not see!

          I bet you think that about us!

        • ddi says:

          You should at least have the decency to STFU instead of blaming the victim for being murdered. Shame on you.

        • Shmuel says:

          Jonah,

          What you say may be honest in the sense that it is what you truly believe, but it is in fact little more than a variation on the racist “they don’t love their children” meme. You show little understanding of the realities of the occupation and little sympathy for Palestinian resistance. The Neve Shalom project is lovely, but such initiatives cannot possibly – and do not purport to – address the daily lives and needs of Palestinian kids and Palestinian society in general.

          Let me give you a real-life example of the dilemmas faced by Palestinian parents. A Palestinian friend of mine was telling me about his worries regarding his kids – not wanting them to go to jail or God forbid get hurt, but not wanting them to ignore the national struggle either. One is at university, and very focused on her own life, not interested in politics. He is relieved that she is not putting herself on the line (although the dangers of occupation are everywhere), but hopes that she will find a way of contributing to the collective good later in life. The other is still in high school, and active politically – in an artistic, completely non-violent way. His father is proud, but worried that he will get arrested, or worse.

        • Cliff says:

          You are a disgusting liar, jonah.

          Nothing you say has an ounce of honesty to it.

          Just as you spewed forth every single hasbara meme in one paragraph a couple of weeks ago.

          Your racist, apartheid State sends it’s colonial army onto Palestinian land to subjugate them while the government and the settlers steal/colonize Palestinian land.

          You keep repeating the lie that ‘kids’ are being ‘used’ as political tools. How many children are kidnapped by Israel into the prison system? How many has your ‘police force’ killed since the 2nd Intifada?

          These Palestinian children cannot live an apolitical life. They are going to become radicalized, not by their parents – but by the occupation.

          The notion that Palestinians are retreating from reconciliation is garbage. They have no power except that they EXIST. They are in your way.

          Why don’t you take some goddamn responsibility for what happened? The soldier fired directly at the protester.

          DIRECTLY. He opened the back-door to the ARMORED vehicle, took aim, and FIRED.

          You don’t fire tear gas horizontally AT A PERSON. It’s not meant to kill or maim.

          There is no use dialogue with you except to point out what a morally vapid, ideological psycho you are.

        • Cliff says:

          Jonah also denied the comments made by jldllel who said he saw Israeli fascist soldiers urinate on Palestinians.

          Jonah asked for DNA evidence essentially.

          You can’t have a discussion with people you have absolutely no common ground with.

          And that common ground just has to be basic concepts of human decency.

          These people are more concerned about antisemitic Hamas cartoons than physical consequences like almost 50 years of occupation and colonialism and the disproportionate violence wreaked upon the Palestinians by the Israeli army, the settlers, etc.

        • jonah says:

          Then try to use some proper reasoning, cloak, and I will listen to you.

        • I am curious as to what “proper reasoning” looks like to you? Certainly the rationale provided by others looks very “proper” and “reasoned” to me. Is “proper reasoning” just code for agreeing with you?

        • Shmuel says:

          Then try to use some proper reasoning, cloak, and I will listen to you.

          I doubt it, because your point of departure is the idealisation of Israeli policies and actions, and the dehumanisation of Palestinians. Israeli violence is thus always justified (or at the very worst some sort of inevitable natural phenomenon), and even the mildest forms of Palestinian resistance are always provocative. It’s about prejudice, not reasoning.

        • Shingo says:

          Try to temper your lies jonah,

          These kids and young men who throw rocks against the police – the army works here as police force – and not only against the police but also against Israeli Jewish civilians, are not there for their own, but because they are sent there to riot, endangering their safety and life.

          There is no evidence of that. On the other hand, the IDF are indeed sent there to crush protests, be they peaceful or otherwise. Don’s link explained it best.

          “What Ariel Sharon is doing now (what he did in Lebanon in 1982, when he was the War Minister, you will find elsewhere in this issue), is nothing new, it’s just a brutalisation and an acceleration of this very same policy. Watch his actions carefully: when children throw stones, he shoots them. When they do not throw stones he also shoots them. When people shoot, he shoots them. When they don’t shoot he still shoots them.”
          link to israelimperialnews.org

          It would be like if I, being contrary to the city traffic, send my children on the streets to stop the cars against which I fight.

          No it wouldn’t, because you are not living under military occupation and where the occupation forces are enablers to illegal land theft and settlements activity.

          Hard to accept for me and civilized people, but I can not help but notice that the Palestinians abuse their children for political and propaganda purposes – and even in warfare.

          It’s not so hard for you Jonah. Abusing people in general is the cornerstone of Zionism and Israeli apartheid.

          After all, what civilized people would subject their children to this kind of abuse and vile indoctrination?
          link to sabbah.biz

          There are many reports on it and you need only to google them.

          No there aren’t, hence your inability to link to any.

          There is a veritable industry of martyrdom orchestrated by the political and cultural authorities within the Palestinian society, aimed at inculcating in the children the spirit of sacrifice in the service of a political and religious cause.

          False on all counts.

          First of all, Tamimi was not a child and was not acting as an agent on behalf of some handler. Secondly, Israeli society is founded on the spirit of sacrifice in the service of a political and religious cause. Those unable to contribute to the Israeli Project were often left to die.

          Here a single symptomatic example: link to haaretz.com

          Not at all Jonah. Thanks to the fascist apartheid occupation you so love, many Palestinian children do indeed lose their innocence and their childhood. The same was true of children who survived the Holocaust. This sad state of affairs exist for one reason alone, because the state of Israel is stealing their land, killing them with impunity, destroying their culture, and wiping them out.

          If you would be honest, you would have the moral courage to admit it, and you would be hanging your head in shame for supporting this, but I fear you aren’t. The elephant in the room that you try o desperately to ignore Jonah is that Israel is creating this cycle of hatred and violence. How can anything good possibly come out of an ideology that is based on racial/ethnic supremacy and the belief that such supremacy grants a license to kill?

          The Israelis have never been interested in working toward political reconciliation, for the simple fact that Zionism is incompatible with these ideas. Land and territorial expansionism is far more important to them. The Israelis choose the path of death and destruction at various levels, and are not afraid to use their kids as tool of fight and propaganda in order to score points in their favour.

          This sad and narrow-minded, to put it mildly, but that’s what Zionism has become. We know this topic is taboo for you and your friends, who tend to idealize the Zionist project to the romantic image of the Hebrews at against the Roman invaders, with the consequent obsessive demonization of Islam and Arabs. This vicious cycle is perpetuated as long as people like you will not learn to be more honest with the truth that shows us the reality. Western crap about negotiations and partners for peace.

          As Miko Peled said in a speech recently, the Zionist ideology is fatal to a solution of the conflict. There is only one path which brings hope, not misery. End the occupation.

          Summer camps for Palestinian children are nice, but so long as you are demolishing their homes and mass murdering their friends and family, it amounts to little more than a bandaid on a haemorrhage.

        • Shingo says:

          Then try to use some proper reasoning, cloak, and I will listen to you.

          You’ve demonstrated time and time agains that you are impervious to reason Jonah. For you to listen to reaspon would require you to suspend your life time of Zionist indoctrination.

        • seafoid says:

          Jonah

          What are “Israeli Jewish civilians” doing in Nabi Saleh? why are they there? why do they have their own laws? Why do they have property rights ahead of the local people?

        • eljay says:

          >> Western moral dishonesty helps to keep the Palestinians in their misery …

          …but that moral dishonesty pales in comparison to Zio-supremacist moral deficiency:
          - which created the misery in the first place;
          - which justifies and glorifies Zionist terrorism, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, the creation of a religion-supremacist state and Israel’s 60+ years, ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder;
          - which emboldens Israel to refuse to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace;
          - which enables Zio-supremacist aggressors falsely to claim victimhood even as they continue to crush their Palestinian victims.

        • jonah says:

          You show little understanding of the realities of the occupation and little sympathy for Palestinian resistance

          Shmuel,
          I have no sympathy for Palestinian resistance, indeed. But not because, as you may think, I’m against resistance per se. I have for instance great respect for the Tibetan resistance against China, or the resistance of the Myanmar people against the military junta. This kind of resistance deserves my full and total respect. Not so the Palestinian so-called “struggle”, which is in fact a state of belligerency against Israel at various level, as I said above, in which even children are used as tool of fight and propaganda. I don’t consider it a form of honest, true resistance. To put it frankly – you deny this, of course – Palestinians do not really fight for their own state – living side by side with Israel in peace and security -, but rather for the destruction of Israel, which they still consider an alien entity. This makes their case so desperate, because there is no honesty in a resistance which want the dissipation of the adversary. As long as they do not know how to separate clearly between war and resistance, renouncing violence and terrorism, their alleged fight can not be considered serious and will get my condemnation. The resistance should not be done by placing bombs in cafes and markets, launching rockets on cities, sending young men throwing stones or a gang of terrorists to kill Israeli civilians along the border, but rather by electing people who can bring reconciliation ans peace between the two peoples. When will a Palestinian Aung San Suu Kyi become head of the Palestinian protest or resistance? That is real strength, not the bogus claim of Palestinian alleged “resistance”.
          This doesn’t mean that the life conditions under occupation are not difficult. They are – but mainly self-inflicted, because of the policies on Palestinian (and Arab) side, deleterious to say the least.

        • eljay says:

          >> This doesn’t mean that the life conditions under occupation are not difficult. They are – but mainly self-inflicted …

          So, the problem is not Israel’s illegal, immoral and ever-expanding occupation of Palestine far beyond partition borders, it’s that the Palestinians are inflicting difficult “life conditions” upon themselves under Israel’s illegal, immoral and ever-expanding occupation. Interesting.

        • Shmuel says:

          Not so the Palestinian so-called “struggle”, which is in fact a state of belligerency against Israel … the destruction of Israel…. This doesn’t mean that the life conditions under occupation are not difficult. They are – but mainly self-inflicted

          Exactly why I wrote that “reasoning” is not the issue here. No amount of reasoned argument or evidence will ever shake your basic belief in Israeli good faith (and inherent victimhood) and Palestinian belligerency.

        • jonah says:

          Yes, eljay, you said it, but you need more intellectual courage to see beyond the veil of your ideological blindness. The occupation is there because there is a ongoing war in ME, with weekly and daily firing of rockets and (attempts of) terror attacks on Israeli territory. Before 1967 there wasn’t any Israeli occupation, just the Jordanian one, yet Palestinians had nothing to complain and became citizens of Jordan without flinching. However, Israel was even then constantly under attack both through wars forced upon her by the surrounding Arab countries and through terror attacks by Palestinian fedayeens. So, according to logic, it can not be the Israeli occupation. The occupation is necessary as long as the is a state of potential or actual war against Israel. The settlements are the consequence, not the cause of violence. It’s the war waged against Israel, on several fronts. Renounce the violence, the incitement, the unilateral diplomacy, the delegitimization, the terror – and occupation will end. But you need to be ready to choose the path of peace. Palestinians are not, they prefer to play the victim and blame Israel. So be it.

        • eljay says:

          >> Yes, eljay, you said it, but you need more intellectual courage to see beyond the veil of your ideological blindness.

          1. War is peace, ethnic cleansing is a “necessary” evil, occupation is defence and a religion-supremacist state is “a good in the world”. Yeah, “ideological blindness”.
          2. “intellectual courage” – This must be what Zio-supremacists use to make themselves comfortable with the immorality and injustice that their ideology engenders.

          >> The occupation is necessary as long as the is a state of potential or actual war against Israel. The settlements are the consequence, not the cause of violence. … Renounce the violence … and occupation will end.

          This is just plain funny. No one – not even jonah – can sincerely believe that if the Palestinians halt all resistance to Israel’s illegal, immoral and ever-expanding occupation of Palestine far beyond partition borders, Israel will simply melt back to within its partition borders and abandon everything it has stolen and occupied outside of them.

        • MRW says:

          Gellian,

          “You and others around here keep calling these soldiers a bunch of cowards and pussies.”

          What the US military officers, who have to work with these soldiers, say is even worse because they assess them professionally. These are the US Military Liaison Officers to the Middle East. These officers blame the IDF brass, of course, for the lack of discipline.

          As Richard Sale reported the other day in Truthout about what an Israeli war with Iran would look like, and referring to the stateside armchair civilian analysts (Jewish and pro-Israel) crowing about the “invincibility” of the Israeli military taking on Iran, “‘The Israelis have no idea of the scale and complexity of this kind of operation,’ said a former senior US intelligence official.”

          Which is true. Behind closed doors, active US military call the Israeli army a glorified police force. Colonel Lang (ret) who worked in/with Israel for 10 years comes right out and says it: undisciplined and badly trained.

        • Gellian says:

          Thanks for the perspective, MRW. It’s a nice counterweight to some of the fervid-but-uninformed passions that arose from my earlier comments.

          I should add, though, that I’m looking at the situation from the protestor’s perspective. These soldiers have a proven track record of brutality toward Pal protestors–whether that’s because they’re frightened, untrained, ordered to be so, evil, lazy, whatever, doesn’t matter. What does matter is protesting in a meaningful way.

        • @Gellian

          I’m looking at the situation from the protestor’s perspective. These soldiers have a proven track record of brutality toward Pal protestors

          Any bigot who refers to Palestinians as “pal” or “pali” is doing anything but looking at it from their perspective.

        • Donald says:

          Jonah is unwittingly demonstrating why it is wrong to act as though Israel’s crimes against Palestinians began in 1967. If you do that then you leave the door wide open for people like Jonah to say that Israel was subject to unprovoked attack before 67–ignoring the ethnic cleansing and violence that Israel had committed before then.

        • Mooser says:

          “Any bigot who refers to Palestinians as “pal” or “pali” is doing anything but looking at it from their perspective.”

          And he has been told about it many times, but he won’t stop doing it. Probably it’s a kind of inverse or negative shibboleth. Gellian knows how excited with hatred the pejoratives “pal” and “pali” get him, and he figures if he just keeps repeating those ethnic expletives, others will hate the Palestinians, too. Because it never occurs to him that people won’t join him in his bigotry.
          Seen that one over and over and over. People do the same exact thing with “Jew”, but I don’t suppose that occurs to him.

        • Gellian says:

          “Gellian knows how excited with hatred the pejoratives “pal” and “pali” get him”

          Believe it or not, this is completely news to me. I didn’t realize Pal was a slur and apologize to any and all if I caused offense in using it.

        • American says:

          “They are frightened little boys with no training, and it never occurs to you that there might be something fundametlaly wrong with sending such immature people armed with guns to enforce the occupation.”….Shingo

          Look, it’s damn well time to tell it like it is. These are not frighten little boys….these are young adults who have been taught they are’ chosen and entitled’ and that non Jews ‘are animals’ who can be killed for looking at a Jew sideways.
          90% of them don’t know what frightened is….have never been in a real battle or gone up against anyone but unarmed civilians.
          And it doesn ‘t matter if their parents made them that way or the state trained them that way or not, they need to be dealt with as what they are.
          Some rare birds in the IDF have refused to be part of this and gotten out and spoken out…..the majority don’t.
          When the US finally had to confront the Vietnam My Lai massacre it indicted 26 US soldiers for killing unarmed women and children and convicted the platoon leader….despite the ‘heat of war’ conditions and mentality. Notable is three of the soldiers in that platoon tried to stop the massacre and were subjected to all kind of harassment for it. Later they were recognized as the heroes they were.

          Even trying to use ‘scared’ or ‘fear” in what the IDF whimps face in Palestine as equal or in any way like a hellious bloody war lsuch as Vietnam or any real war is sickening. It wasn’t accepted as an excuse for My Lai and it sure as hell isn’t an excuse for the IDF.

          No more ‘excuses’ for these freaks. NO MORE EXCUSES.”

        • American says:

          Here’s part of what Col Lang said:

          “In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it.
          In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble.
          I have seen a lot of things like that. ”

          Here’s what Blankfort reported:
          Jeffrey Blankfort says:
          May 14, 2011 at 12:50 am
          I was considerably luckier than Chris when in 1983, an Israeli soldier in Lebanon fired a bullet that creased my hair when I was taking photos at the Awali Bridge where the Israelis cut off all traffic, including perishable foodstuffs, from heading south. At the same time those brave young lads with the star of David clearly available on their uniforms were taking pot shots at women wading through the river with bags of groceries, not trying to hit them, but to get them to drop their bags”

          Mondo has covered many, many examples of these incidents:

          Here’s one for example:

          link to mondoweiss.net

          There are too many examples of IDF sadism for anyone to try and excuse or justify them.

        • Shingo says:

          I have no sympathy for Palestinian resistance, indeed. But not because, as you may think, I’m against resistance per se. 

          No Jonah, just resistance against Israel.

           Palestinians do not really fight for their own state – living side by side with Israel in peace and security -, but rather for the destruction of Israel, which they still consider an alien entity. .

          Completely false, though Israel has already carried out the destruction of Palestinian society.

           As long as they do not know how t o separate clearly between war and resistance, renouncing violence and terrorism, their alleged fight can not be considered serious and will get my condemnation. 

          Israel has never renounced violence and war. It’s how Israel was created. They only gave up blowing up buildings, markets, hotels and cafes when they got what they wanted. 

          I must say, I have to laugh when you but jobs consider yourself arbiters as to what is DBS is not serious or think anyone is concerned with whom you condem.

        • American says:

          You know what I find most frustrating about I/P and zionism?
          All the comparsions that are made between the US and Israel except the real comparison that should be made for Palestine.
          It’s that if the zionist had picked any where on earth but Palestine, a mainly agricultural, non militant and unarmed community, they would have all been wiped out. Israel would be the shortest footnote in history.
          If some portion of the US had been chosen as their promised land in 1948 and they did the exact same things as they did in Palestine the American people whose land they encroached on would have killed them to a man…holocaust or no holocaust.
          People everywhere feel the same about their homes and land and rights…the Palestines are not exceptions to that basic human instinct.
          If Americans knew exactly what was done and were not lied to about the facts they could related it to their views and feelings about their land and homes and livilhoods and Israel would find no supporters.

        • Cliff says:

          Exactly.

          Imagine if someone said, ‘that Jew protestor’.

          Even saying ‘Jew’ a certain way can be antisemitic.

          You’d think people would understand this by now. It’s common sense that the inflection in your voice or how you abbreviate a word can imply a context.

          Then there is the idiot-’we are tired of being PC’-crowd. They are straight out of South Park (dey tuk our jabs!). Of course, this crowd is coincidentally only anti-PC when it comes to groups they don’t approve of.

        • Potsherd2 says:

          Not just undisciplined and badly trained. The IDF is run by a political establishment that pisses its pants at the thought that one of the “boys” might be killed or, God forbid, taken prisoner, and thus operates on such permissive rules of engagement that during Massacre Cast Lead, almost half their deaths came from their own indiscriminate fire.

          In short, the IDF is a pack of cowards afraid to face enemy fire, and whose commanders do everything possible to keep them out of harm’s way.

        • Shingo says:

          Before 1967 there wasn’t any Israeli occupation, just the Jordanian one, yet Palestinians had nothing to complain and became citizens of Jordan without flinching.

          That might have somethig to do with the fact that:

          a) Jordan was not carrying out ethnic cleasing, home demolition, eviction and illegal settlement construction – unlike Israel
          b) Jordan offered them citizenship – unlike Israel

          However, Israel was even then constantly under attack both through wars forced upon her by the surrounding Arab countries and through terror attacks by Palestinian fedayeens.

          Israel began the ethnic cleasing of Palestinian in 1947, and expelled 300,000 of them before any surrounding Arab countries even set foot in Palestine. You’ve had this explained to you countless times Jonah, so why the lies?

          The occupation is necessary as long as the is a state of potential or actual war against Israel.

          If the occupation is necessary because of a state of potential or actual war, then why is Israelallowing settlements to be contructed is such a dangerous region?

          The settlements are the consequence, not the cause of violence.

          Really, how so? What purpose do the settlements serve in response to teh violence?

          Do you admit the settlements are in themselves an act of violence.

          Renounce the violence, the incitement, the unilateral diplomacy, the delegitimization, the terror – and occupation will end.

          No it won’t bevasue the occupation took place in repsonse to Israel’s agreesive war in 1967. The Palestinians played no part in that war. They were not blowing up cafes or firing rockets, so the occupation cannot possibly be a repsonse to terrorism.

          And if the settlements are part of the occupation, are you suggesting that the renouncing of violence will lead to teh settlements dissapearing?

          Surely you cannot believe this crap you are posting Jonah?

        • tree says:

          You and others around here keep calling these soldiers a bunch of cowards and pussies.

          They aren’t. They’re deadly dangerous.

          I don’t think you understand human psychology. Being a coward and being dangerous are not antithetical. “Cowards and pussies” who think they need to be macho are in fact much more dangerous in situations like this than are courageous people. Someone with true courage would know and understand that such a violent action was totally wrong and uncalled for. A coward who wishes not to seen as one is anxious to “prove” his manhood by lashing out at someone in a weaker position than he is in, because he knows he faces no real threat by doing so.

        • jonah says:

          Hi Shingo -
          first of all I try again to post some links about Palestinian indoctrination to hate you asked me for, which the censors on mondo seem so terribly scared to publish. But this time I promise: no video of parents praising the matyrdom of their children, no selected documents about Palestinian children as combatants, no anti-Semitic propaganda on Palestinian media – only pure and simple pdf-documents and reports about the issue. Enjoy the instructive reading!

          link to ipcri.org

          link to impact-se.org

          link to fpc.state.gov

          link to robat.scl.net

        • Citizen says:

          To jonah, with love:

          Academic Claims Israeli School Textbooks Contain Bias
          Date posted: August 08, 2011
          By Harriet Sherwood

          Nurit Peled-Elhanan, an Israeli academic, mother and political radical, summons up an image of rows of Jewish schoolchildren, bent over their books, learning about their neighbours, the Palestinians. But, she says, they are never referred to as Palestinians unless the context is terrorism.

          They are called Arabs. “The Arab with a camel, in an Ali Baba dress. They describe them as vile and deviant and criminal, people who don’t pay taxes, people who live off the state, people who don’t want to develop,” she says. “The only representation is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer.”

          Peled-Elhanan, a professor of language and education at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has studied the content of Israeli school books for the past five years, and her account, Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education, is to be published in the UK this month. She describes what she found as racism– but, more than that, a racism that prepares young Israelis for their compulsory military service.

          “People don’t really know what their children are reading in textbooks,” she said. “One question that bothers many people is how do you explain the cruel behaviour of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians, an indifference to human suffering, the inflicting of suffering. People ask how can these nice Jewish boys and girls become monsters once they put on a uniform. I think the major reason for that is education. So I wanted to see how school books represent Palestinians.”

          In “hundreds and hundreds” of books, she claims she did not find one photograph that depicted an Arab as a “normal person”. The most important finding in the books she studied – all authorised by the ministry of education – concerned the historical narrative of events in 1948, the year in which Israel fought a war to establish itself as an independent state, and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled the ensuing conflict.

          The killing of Palestinians is depicted as something that was necessary for the survival of the nascent Jewish state, she claims. “It’s not that the massacres are denied, they are represented in Israeli school books as something that in the long run was good for the Jewish state. For example, Deir Yassin [a pre-1948 Palestinian village close to Jerusalem] was a terrible slaughter by Israeli soldiers. In school books they tell you that this massacre initiated the massive flight of Arabs from Israel and enabled the establishment of a Jewish state with a Jewish majority. So it was for the best. Maybe it was unfortunate, but in the long run the consequences for us were good.”

          Children, she says, grow up to serve in the army and internalise the message that Palestinians are “people whose life is dispensable with impunity. And not only that, but people whose number has to be diminished.”

          Peled-Elhanan approaches her subject from a radical political background. She is the daughter of a famous general, Matti Peled, who became convinced that Israel’s future lay in a dignified peace with the Palestinians. After leaving the army, he became active in the peace movement.

          The family produced a poster, calling for a peaceful settlement to the conflict, featuring Peled-Elhanan’s only daughter, Smadar. It’s message was that all children deserve a better future.

          Then, in 1997, Smadar was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber while shopping in Jerusalem. She was 13. Peled-Elhanan declines to talk about her daughter’s death apart from once or twice referring to “the tragedy”.

          At the time, she said that it would strengthen her belief that, without a settlement to the conflict and peaceful coexistence with Palestinians, more children would die. “Terrorist attacks like this are the direct consequence of the oppression, slavery, humiliation and state of siege imposed on the Palestinians,” she told TV reporters in the aftermath of Smadar’s death.

          Her radical views have exacted a professional cost. “University professors stopped inviting me to conferences. And when I do speak, the most common reaction is, ‘you are anti-Zionist’.” Anybody who challenges the dominant narrative in today’s Israel, she says, is similarly accused.

          She hopes her book will be published in Hebrew, but is resigned to it being dismissed by many in the political mainstream.

          Asked if Palestinian school books also reflect a certain dogma, Peled-Elhanan claims that they distinguish between Zionists and Jews. “They make this distinction all the time. They are against Zionists, not against Jews.”

          But she concedes that teaching about the Holocaust in Palestinian schools is “a problem, an issue”. “Some [Palestinian] teachers refuse to teach the Holocaust as long as Israelis don’t teach the Nakba [the Palestinian "catastrophe" of 1948].”

          Perhaps not surprisingly for someone of such radical views, Peled-Elhanan is deeply pessimistic about her country’s future. Change, she says, will only come “when the Americans stop providing us with $1m a day to maintain this regime of occupation and racism and supremacy”.

          She said that within Israel, “I only see the path to fascism. You have 5.5 million Palestinians controlled by Israel who live in a horrible apartheid with no civil and no human rights. And you have the other half who are Jews who are also losing their rights by the minute,” she says, in reference to a series of attempts to restrict Israelis’ right to protest and criticise their government.

          She dismisses the Israeli left as always small and timid, but especially now. “There has never been a real left in this country.” She believes that the education system helps to perpetuate an unjust, undemocratic and unsustainable state.

          “Everything they do, from kindergarten to 12th grade, they are fed in all kinds of ways, through literature and songs and holidays and recreation, with these chauvinistic patriotic notions.”

          Read More …

          Togetherness Takes Wings
          By: Pierre Klochendler
          Date: 12/12/2011
          Israel is in the Midst of a Culture War
          By: Gideon Levy
          Date: 12/12/2011
          Palestinian Protester ‘Was Deliberately Shot in the Face’ With Gas Grenade
          By: Hugh Naylor
          Date: 12/12/2011
          By the Same Author

          Israel Faces Legal Challenge Over Block on Palestinians Exiting Gaza to Sue State
          Date: 03/12/2011
          Israel Sanctions Mean Palestinian Authority Cannot Pay Employees’ Wages
          Date: 28/11/2011
          Israel Rushes Settlement Growth After UNESCO Accepts Palestinians
          Date: 02/11/2011
          The Battle of Bet Shemesh
          Date: 01/11/2011
          Palestinians Press for Full Membership of UNESCO
          Date: 31/10/2011
          Source: The Guardian, 7 August. 2011

        • jonah says:

          With regard to the rest of your post:

          Jordan was not carrying out ethnic cleasing, home demolition, eviction and illegal settlement construction – unlike Israel

          Read the definition of ‘ethinc cleansing’ and compare the definition with the demographics of the Palestinians territories: Where is Israel carrying out ethnic cleansing, please? Where exactly, if the global Palestinian population growth rathe corresponds to 2.097%?

          Besides, where exactly is written that the settlements are ‘illegal’? Where is the binding resolution? And also, where are written
          the legal – that means according to the law (to which you appeal so often) – property rights on the land supposedly owned by the Palestinians? And they are somewhere, is there any evidence that you could provide?
          Before 1948 the Palestinians were part of the Ottoman Empire, then they became Jordanian citizens, and finally – after 1967 – they were called Palestinians. Nobody wants to deny the legitimacy of their request for a sovereign state, but this request must be negotiated with the Israelis, because there is no rightful owner according to a unanimously accepted and recognized law. Unless you want to go back to the Balfour Declaration, that was incorporated into the binding San Remo resolution of the 1920 ….. Or if you absolutely want to play on Resolution 242, so you should know that it does not automatically – de jure – give the territories to the Palestinians, but makes an Israeli withdrawal from territories dependent on the peace process between Israel and its neighbors (including the Palestinians).

          And if the settlements are part of the occupation, are you suggesting that the renouncing of violence will lead to teh settlements dissapearing?

          Are you suggesting that violence will lead to the disappearing of the settlements and of the Israeli presence in the territories (aka ‘occupation’)?

        • jonah says:

          To Citizen, a critical review of his educator(s):

          The Psychopathological Acting Out of Israeli Educators and ‘Celebrity Jew and Israel Bashers’ – The case of Nurit Peled-Elhanan
          By Dr. Gary Katz, (Ph.D., The Wright Institute,Berkeley,California,1979)

          “This professional educator has turned to malicious indoctrination of a hateful ideology which she advocates to replace the liberal democratic tenets of Israeli culture. Israel has integrated people of all cultures and colors in an ongoing social experiment that has been remarkable given its mere 60 year tenure. Integration of over 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries has been a priority. No refugee camps purposely displayed so as to showcase their ‘victimhood.’

          Yoav Peled is an avowed communist who teaches political science at Tel Aviv University. He made news in 1997 after his niece was murdered in a suicide bombing by Palestinians. Peled flamboyantly invited a PLO spokesperson to the girl’s funeral and, at the funeral, explained how her death was all the fault of then-Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu. Peled pronounced this view to the world in an op-ed piece in the Los Angeles Times. The Prime Minister was insisting on “reciprocity” and received “atrocity” instead.

          Nurit Peled-Elhanan, lecturer in Language Education at Hebrew University blamed Israel for the death of her daughter Smadar (z’l). Smadar (14 years old) was killed by an Arab suicide bomber on September 4, 1997. Did she blame the Arab murderer? No Way! “Neither Judaism nor Islam nor any religion for that matter are the cause for murder and terror. Racist education is. American imperialism is, and Israeli ruthless regime of occupation is….The people who are destroying the world today are not Muslim. The people who are using the most sophisticated disastrous weapons to kill thousand of innocent civilians are not Muslim. They are Christian, and Jewish.”

          Nurit Peled-Elhanan is the sister of Yoav Peled. At the funeral for her own murdered daughter, a spokesman for the PLO was invited to speak and tell everyone how the death of Smadar was all the fault of the Israeli government. Peled-Elhanan is active in the leftist extremist anti-Israel Gush Shalom organization which helps explain some her significant clinical psychopathology.

          “And if my son Yigal really does want to participate in the military programs that they impose on high school students starting in grade 10, or God forbid, to enlist in the army of occupation and torment, I will see it as a dreadful educational failure. A terrible maternal failure. And if I do not do everything I can to prevent him from becoming a murderer or a corpse at age of 18 I will know that I betrayed him and my vocation as a mother.” Who else has she betrayed in her highly visible position? Not just tens of thousands of our children.

          Only the technical psychological term misuse and misrepresentation used by the anti-Israel Israelis, BBC et al to pathologize any person who insisted on facing the actual reality (“paranoid”: unjustifiable fears?) rather than mindlessly escaping to the safety of academia with their hallucinations (including ‘negative’ hallucinations, i.e. not seeing what actually IS there) as well as ordinary hallucinations of a ‘commitment to peace and stopping terror by Abbas’, the success of leaving ‘land for peace’, the change in intergenerational transmission of Jew-hatred to children in the PA in their textbooks and TV programming, the glorification of the most heinous of crimes and cold-blooded random murder, etc. Of course BBC called us “paranoid” when we fear what has happened on an unimaginable scale since we left the Gaza-Egypt border. Never a retraction or clarification or even an accounting of the fact that more weaponry and explosives have been smuggled into Gaza in the last 2 years than the previous 40 years. The pathology is …well, malignant and untreated as well as unamenable to treatment. As for me, despite my Civil Rights credentials and working with third World children and in academia for 35 years, I am suddenly pronounced a right wing Nazi for mentioning anything not anti-Israel. And Marx’ great contribution of historical materialism, i.e. facts are real and cannot be ignored or history and possibility for progressive change is undermined…this great boon to understanding is also ignored by the ‘new’ extremist-left.

          ….

          That someone like … Peled-Elhanan would make a career out of castigating ISRAELI textbooks and trumpeting the illegitimacy of Israel, the racist state, is truly reprehensible as her flowing misrepresentations and apologist distortions masquerade as truth wherever she is invited.”

          link to isracampus.org.il

        • Citizen says:

          jonah, this is from Wikipedia; you can go check out the footnote sources there:
          The International Court of Justice[3] and the international community say these settlements are illegal,[4][5] and no foreign government supports Israel’s settlements.[6] Israel disputes the position of the international community.[7] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel’s construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[8]

          Remember, the Nuremberg Trials, from which so much international law and its institutions derived, applied ex post facto law. Israel’s current status as a legitimate state, a nation among nations, itself was authorized by the UN (with all local countries against it, and the Palestinians sans any direct representation). Further, Israel’s acceptance into the UN was based on a condition subsequent, which Israel never honored, and originated in the Balfour Declaration’s condition that the rights of the locals would not be negatively affected by establishment of a Jewish “homeland.” Also, what are Israel’s borders? Are they the same as those the new state declared in its application to join the UN?

        • tree says:

          first of all I try again to post some links about Palestinian indoctrination to hate you asked me for

          Jonah, I strongly suggest that you actually READ the pdfs you linked to. All are pdfs concerning Palestinian textbooks. Three out of the four contradict your assertion that Palestinian textbooks exhibit “indoctrination to hate”. The first is from the Israel Palestine Center for Research and Information. It has several criticisms of the Palestinian textbooks but none of them constitute “indoctrination to hate”, and all of the criticisms could be equally applied to Israeli textbooks. The second pdf is from the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, which is a right wing Israeli center with ties to extremist Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories. This is how Dr. Nathan Brown, an American professor who has lived in Israel and studied Palestinian textbooks has described the CMEP work on Palestinian textbooks: (note: This is from YOUR 4th link)

          Any treatment of Palestinian education must confront at the outset the oft-repeated claims that Palestinian textbooks instill hatred of Israel and Jews. In a sense, this issue is at most tangential to this paper, which focuses on internal Palestinian politics and portrays textbooks as outcomes of domestic struggle more than producers of international conflict. But virtually every discussion in English on Palestinian education repeats the charge that Palestinian textbooks incite students against Jews and Israel. It may therefore come as a surprise to readers that the books authored under the PNA are largely innocent of these charges. What is more remarkable than any statements they make on the subject is their silence—the PNA-authored books often stubbornly avoid treating anything controversial regarding current Palestinian national identity, forcing them into awkward omissions and gaps. The first generation of Palestinian textbooks written in 1994, the National Education series, make no mention of any location as Palestinian outside of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967; those books go to some lengths to avoid saying anything about Israel at all and the few exceptions are hardly pejorative. The second generation of books—issued beginning in 2000—breaks some of that silence but with neither the consistency nor the stridency that critics of the textbooks allege.

          Then where do persistent reports of incitement in Palestinian textbooks come from? Virtually all can be traced back to the work of a single organization, the “Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace.” The Center claims that its purpose is “to encourage the development and fostering of peaceful relations between peoples and nations, by establishing a climate of tolerance and mutual respect founded on the rejection of violence as a means to resolving conflicts.”2 Critics charge that the Center’s real purpose is to launch attacks on the Palestinian National Authority, and it would be difficult to contest such a conclusion. They point to the identity of the Center’s first director, Itamar Marcus, to support their suspicions.3

          The Center’s own reports suggest such suspicions are well-founded. The Center began operation by issuing its first report in 1998 on Palestinian textbooks that might best be described as tendentious and highly misleading. When the PNA issued a new series of books for grades one and six in 2000, the Center rushed out its second report that passed over significant changes quite quickly before presenting its allegations of “delegitimization of Israel’s existence,” implicit “seeking of Israel’s destruction,” “defamation of Israel,” and “encouraging militarism and violence.” However, in contrast to the alarm and alacrity with which it studied Palestinian textbooks, the Center’s work on Israeli textbooks showed a far more generous spirit and proceeded at a far more leisurely pace, taking years rather than months. The report on Israeli books followed a very different method: rather than quoting example after example of offending passages with little historical context or explanation (a method that would have produced a very damning report indeed), the report on Israeli textbooks is nuanced and far more careful. Incendiary quotations are explained, analyzed and contextualized in the report on Israeli books; they are listed with only brief and sensationalist explanations in the reports on Palestinian books. In short, the Center is fair, balanced, and understanding for Israeli textbooks but tendentious on Palestinian books.

          The Center’s work has been widely circulated: its reports are the source for virtually any quotation in English from the Palestinian curriculum. Indeed, its influence has begun to be felt in policy circles, and has informed congressional and presidential statements in the United States, numerous newspaper columns, and—more recently—a decision by some external donors to cut off funds for Palestinian education. Recently some European parliamentarians have begun to press their governments and the European Union as a whole, and an Israeli cabinet minister has spoken of taking the issue to the United Nations. Since the Center’s reports have dominated the public debate with considerable effect and little contestation, it makes some sense to examine them.

          While often highly misleading and always unreliable, most of the contents of the Center’s reports are not fabricated. Clearly false statements are rare, though when they do occur they are far from minor. For instance, the Center’s first report on Palestinian textbooks, issued in 1998, included the statement that: “PA TV is a division of the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Education,” which allowed the report to saddle the Palestinian educational establishment with any statement broadcast on Palestinian television. The statement was false, however. In its second comprehensive report on Palestinian textbooks, issued in 2000 on the new books for the first and sixth grades, the Center claims that “the PA has rejected international calls” to modify books for the other grades. In fact, as will become clear, the plan to replace the textbooks in question was as old as the PNA itself and was proceeding according to a well-published schedule when the Center’s report was issued. Several lesser errors occur throughout the Center’s work.

          But the real problems with the Center’s reports lie elsewhere. In particular, three sets of flaws characterize its work (and much of the public debate about Palestinian textbooks more generally).First, the Center generally ignores any historical context in a way that renders some of its claims sharply misleading. In its 1998 report, the Center adduced numerous incendiary statements about Israel and Jews from books in use in Palestinian schools. The statements quoted were accurate. Some indeed were highly offensive to Jews and sharply anti-Israeli.4 Yet they came not from books authored by Palestinians but from Egyptian and Jordanian books used in Gaza and the West Bank, respectively.5 The books were distributed by the PNA, to be sure, but they antedated its establishment. (The Center’s report does hold the PNA responsible for distributing the Egyptian and Jordanian books and therefore holds Palestinians responsible for the content. Here it displays an odd double standard: it does not note that Israel has distributed the exact same books in East Jerusalem, removing only the cover. The only books that the Israelis refused to distribute after 1994 were those authored by the PNA—the National Education series—even though those books were free of the content that Israel objected to. The likely reason for this odd policy is that Palestinian sovereignty in Jerusalem—implied by using PNA-authored books—was far more problematic for Israel than anti-Semitism.)

          By sharp contrast to the Egyptian and Jordanian books, the 1994 National Education series, actually authored by the PNA, verged on blandness. The first generation of books made no mention of any Palestinian area within the 1967 borders (the second generation of books—written after the Center’s first report—reversed this policy). Indeed, the 1994 books went to some length to avoid any controversial matter whatsoever. An organization claiming to “monitor the impact of peace” might be expected to compare the older, non-Palestinian books with the newer, Palestinian ones. Indeed, such a task would seem basic to its mission. The Center goes beyond failing to live up to its name; its reports are written to obfuscate the distinction between the old and new books. It does not simply fail to note the change, but, in one of its rare falsehoods, the Center claims that in the 1994 series, Israel does not exist.6 (The treatment of Palestinian history in the 1994 books is extremely brief, but Israel is indeed referred to; remarkably, the 1994 texts resorts to awkward phrasing to avoid citing Israel in some negative contexts.) It is difficult escape the conclusion that the Center was far more interested in criticizing the PNA than in an honest assessment of the changes produced in Palestinian education by the Oslo Accords. The second problem with the Center’s work is its prosecutorial style. Its reports offer little more than brief themes and then list statement after statement purporting to prove the point. Any evidence that contradicts the Center’s harsh message is ignored, obscured, or dismissed, such as maps that clearly draw Palestinian governorates as covering only the West Bank and Gaza, an extended and laudatory treatment of Gandhi’s nonviolence, or a tour of Palestinian cities that includes only those under PNA rule. Other evidence is interpreted inaccurately. For instance, a topographical map of Palestine (inserted most likely to avoid drawing any sensitive political issues regarding borders) is presented as a denial of Israel’s existence. Many of the selections included are presented in a highly tendentious manner: a unit on tolerance is criticized for omitting Jews, while a reading of the entire unit makes perfectly clear that its topic is tolerance within Palestinian society.7 ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam is mentioned in texts as a Palestinian national hero; the Center’s 2000 report
          explains:

          The primary terrorist organization operating against Israel since the signing of the Oslo Accords is the Hamas, whose members terrorized Israeli citizens with suicide attacks, primarily on buses. The terror wing of the group is called the “Az Aldin Al Kassam” squad, named after the terrorist who fought the British and Jews before the establishment of the State of Israel. The new PA
          schoolbook glorifies Kassam…

          In essence, the Center provides a context for the mention of al-Qassam that, while accurate, is irrelevant to the text: it deliberately obscures how the text itself presents al-Qassam or how Palestinians would understand a reference to him. Al-Qassam was killed at the beginning of his attempt to organize a rebellion against the British mandate. Subsequent generations of Palestinians have been able to read various dimensions into his short career: for mainstream nationalists, he is a rebel against the British, for Islamists, a warrior for Islam, and for leftists, he is a mobilizer of the popular classes. To imply that mentioning al-Qassam is an implicit endorsement of suicide attacks and bus bombings is thus based on a hostile, inaccurate, and even dishonest reading—what matters is not whether the textbooks cite him but how they present him. Palestinian texts mention him onlyas a martyr in the struggle against British imperialism.8

          In short, the purpose is clearly to indict the textbooks and the PNA rather than analyze and understand the content of the books. Were the Center to take a similar approach in other countries, including Israel, it could easily find comparable material.9

          And your 3rd pdf linked is from a Congressional report that rather dispassionately lists the various sources, including CMIP, IPCRI, Nathan Brown and the George Eckert Institute and what they claim about Israeli textbooks. So, in other words, of your 4 links, only one makes the claim that you allege, and its objectively is severely questioned by other sources (including other Israeli sources) that disagree with it.

          And as others have pointed out, the deficiencies in the Palestinian textbooks are mirrored by similar deficiencies in Israeli textbooks, and the Israeli textbooks, in addition, are guilty of gross racism towards Arabs and a denial of Palestinians, despite the fact that Israelis of Palestinian descent make up 25% of the Israeli population.

          Again, jonah, honestly read the very links YOU provided. They give a very different picture that the one to which you are so far too emotionally attached to question.

        • Shmuel says:

          leftist extremist anti-Israel Gush Shalom organization

          LOL. There goes the credibility of this “critical review”. No need to read the author’s paean to “the liberal democratic tenets of Israeli culture”, or ramblings about “communists” and the “psychopathology” (don’t tell me; Selbsthass, right?) of his ideological opponents.

        • tree says:

          Jonah,

          Your “critical review” of Peled-Elhanan’s work is really just an extensive ( and racist) ad-hominem. Katz does not refute any of the allegations made about Israeli textbooks, but instead engages in pseudo-psychological mumbo-jumbo and various aspersions against Peled-Elhanan’s character because she has the audacity to criticize Israel and Israeli textbooks. Barring any actual refutations of her claims, Katz’ diatribe is simply hot air, and not worthy of the space it took to link it. If you have any proof that her allegations about Israeli textbooks are wrong, come forward with them. Ad hominems are useless and cheap.

        • jonah says:

          tree –
          indeed, these reports are quite moderate, because the rest is not digested by the sensitive stomachs of the mondo editors. The first pdf of The Israel/Palestine Center for Research and information (IPCRI) offers perhaps the most dispassionate, comprehensive and detailed examination of the PA textbooks. But even here we read the following description of the concepts of “Jihad, Freedom, Sacrifice and Martyrdom” in Palestinian textbooks (those of more moderate Fatah faction, let alone those of Hamas):

          “The concepts of Jihad and Martyrdom, mostly in their religious and militant form, appear in a large number of quotations (Quranic and literary). These quotations are presented in both historical and present-day contexts. In the former case, they mostly relate to the duty of defending the new religion and safeguarding its achievements against the infidels and the apostates. In the latter context, these quotations are mostly interwoven with the themes of librating the homeland from the hands of invaders, occupiers, oppressors, and usurpers. No references are made to a “Jihad” against the followers of the other monotheistic traditions or their symbols, beliefs and holy places,
          however within the current political context clear inference can be made by the pupils that the text is in fact referring to “Jihad” against the Jews and against the State of Israel.
          • Several passages contain references that promote making sacrifices for the sake of the homeland. Sacrifice is understood in different contexts to include sacrificing self, material possessions, steadfastness, etc. In this context, sacrifice would entail martyrdom which is the terminology used today for suicide bombers (as well as for others). Several of the references relate to sacrifice made in the recent past in Palestine and in Arab countries seeking freedom and independence from the British and French.

          Maps

          •”Israel as a sovereign state within the borders of pre-1967 does not appear in any of the maps, nor does any Israeli city established by Jewish immigrants/Israel in modern times (e.g., Netanya, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, etc.). Some maps show the whole country as “Palestine” with the regions of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip distinguished from the rest of the country.
          • Several world and extended regional maps are presented in different contexts that show Palestine and the neighboring countries, all labeled with the exception of Israel.
          • A series of topographic maps accompany material that talk about the geographic and physical features of what is referred to as “Palestine”. The maps cover the area of “historical Palestine” and include plains, rivers, mountain ranges, desert regions, coastal plains in both the State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.”

          But more impact on the children than textbooks have PA and above all Hamas television and radio programms. We all know the lovely Teddy Bear Nassur Al-Aqsa TV. This is his debut in 2009: link to youtube.com

        • Cliff says:

          LOL@that pseudo-scientific nonsense about Nurit.

          Jonah cites the most phony sources with a straight face, I almost feel sorry for him.

          Nurit’s book hasn’t been published in english yet. Waiting on that.

        • Cliff says:

          Its like when Aztmon psychoanalyses. Zionists do it much worse though. There is that shamelessness to it.

          Total lack of self-awareness.

        • jonah says:

          And if the editor has the courage to show it, I would like to add this other video of “TV-education”. No fear: nothing terrific, only the flat normality on Palestinian TV.

          link to youtube.com

        • tree says:

          Jonah

          The reports are “quite moderate” because most of the sources are not biased and inflamatory like the rest of your sources, and their criticisms do not equal the “indoctrination of hate” that you falsely claim. And please tell me what is essentially different about the paragraph you quoted on jihad versus any other country’s textbooks. All attempt to instill a sense of patriotism which is what the Palestinian textbooks do. As illustrated before ( and you have not refuted this because you can’t) Israeli textbooks do the same kind of thing. And Israeli textbooks do not show the green line on maps, they refer to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria as if they are a part of Israel proper, and refer to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as a good thing. If you are going to claim on the basis of your quote from IPCRI that Palestinian textbooks indoctrinate “to hate” then by all rights you must make the same claim about Israeli textbooks. And therefore, why the anger about one set of textbooks and a whitewash on your part about a similar set? Your double standard is clear.

          And while as your quoted link makes clear, “No references are made to a “Jihad” against the followers of the other monotheistic traditions or their symbols, beliefs and holy places,however within the current political context clear inference can be made by the pupils that the text is in fact referring to “Jihad” against the Jews and against the State of Israel. ” In other words, like the textbooks in any other normal country would, the texts refer to a belligerent occupation of their country in a negative light. Only a person hallucinating on ziocaine would believe that any other people would choose to view the people who ethnically cleansed them, demolished their houses, killed their children and adults and subjected them to a violent belligerent occupation for over 44 years in anything other than a negative light. The negativity is not religious in nature. To paraphrase Carville, “Its the occupation, stupid…” And the ethnic cleansing, and the discrimination, and the killing, and the house demolitions, etc. Only a masochist would consider those things something to speak positively about. Why Zionists have such a problem with empathy, I still don’t quite get. But you surely do.

          But more impact on the children than textbooks have PA and above all Hamas television and radio programms. We all know the lovely Teddy Bear Nassur Al-Aqsa TV. This is his debut in 2009.

          Another case of Zionism overcoming simple logic. the greatest impact on Palestinian attitudes towards Israelis is made by the Israelis they see everyday at checkpoints, etc-the IDF. Or those Israelis that they don’t see, that drop one ton bombs on their houses, or the snipers that shoot children in their schoolrooms, or while they are playing soccer. Or the settlers who steal their olives, or their land, or set fire to their trees, or attack them in their fields. And yet you insist that a cartoon character introduced on TV in 2009 is somehow responsible for suicide bombing made 9 years prior. You have no logic to your argument, just emotion and an overwhelming desire to blame the victims to soothe your sense of Zionist self.

        • jonah says:

          tree

          “their criticisms do not equal the “indoctrination of hate” that you falsely claim”

          What is false is the last video I posted, please? This is the reality on Al-Aqsa-TV. The editor had the courage to post the link, do you have the courage to watch it?

          “As illustrated before ( and you have not refuted this because you can’t) Israeli textbooks do the same kind of thing.”

          From the above quoted text by citizen: “Peled-Elhanan approaches her subject from a radical political background.” Is Peled maybe “not biased and inflamatory”? Do you have any other “more moderate” source to support your claims against Israeli textbooks?

          Another case of Zionism overcoming simple logic. the greatest impact on Palestinian attitudes towards Israelis is made by the Israelis they see everyday at checkpoints, etc-the IDF.

          The same can be said for the Israeli kids in regard to the daily rockets and terror against Israeli civilians and kindergarten, don’t you think? Or are you maybe denying the fact that also Israeli children can be traumatized by Palestinians war deeds?

          And yet you insist that a cartoon character introduced on TV in 2009 is somehow responsible for suicide bombing made 9 years prior.

          No, I’m saying that these kids are indoctrinated from early age. The suicide bombings made 9 years before had the same root: indoctrination. link to en.wikipedia.org

        • courage? i have no issue with the station who runs it, i have issue with memri , with whom it has been established time and again has pasted up distortions in their translations.

          and btw, you’ve yet to produce one iota of evidence to refute a scholar whose work you are denigrating by implications her political background alone determines the outcome of her thesis. it’s easy enough to simply provide evidence that what she claims is untrue.

        • Shingo says:

          No, I’m saying that these kids are indoctrinated from early age. The suicide bombings made 9 years before had the same root: indoctrination. link to en.wikipedia.org

          Robert Papae conducted a study of all suicide attacks over 3 decades – funded by no less than the DOD. It concluded that in 95% of all attacks, the motivation is directly linked to foreign military occupation – NOT indoctrination, NOT religion, but occupation ONLY.

          Do you have any other “more moderate” source to support your claims against Israeli textbooks?

          More Zionist is not more moderate. You continue to refuse to address the evidence and insist on attacking Peled-Elhanan. If she weren’t Jewish you’d call het anti Semitic, but becasue she is Jewish, you insist she’s from a radical political background.

          From our perspective, you are the extremist with the radical political background.

          The same can be said for the Israeli kids in regard to the daily rockets and terror against Israeli civilians and kindergarten, don’t you think?

          Not really, seeing as the Israeli kids don’t see other Israeli kids dismembered and mutilated.

        • Citizen says:

          I’d say it is radical to point out that Israeli textbooks inflame Jewish Israeli children at least as much, if not much more, than Palestinian textbooks inflame Palestinian children when in America, the huge enabler of Israel, the Arabs, and especially the Palestinian Arabs have been painted as negative cartoon “sand monkeys” of one sort or another for my entire life, which is probably longer than anybody’s who posts on this site. Yes, radical indeed, when Newt Gingrich, an historian, and a main contender for our next POTUS claims on national TV during prime time a few days ago that Palestinians are terrorists, and an invented people, and cause the intractable ruckus over there by firing rockets at Israeli civilians day and night–never mentioning that Palestinians are the natives of the land in question and have been subject to brutal treatment, dispossession, and occupation for decades. Yes, radical indeed when another main contender, Michelle Bachmann, for POTUS, competes with Newt by telling the American mass voting audience that the root of the I-P conflict is that the Palestinian child textbooks teach their kids to hate Jews–yes, Bachmann, who also tells us Americans that our foreign policy in the ME is mandated by God in her bible, where she says, it says we must give a blank check to Israel right or wrong in every way because God said so and we will go to hell if we object. Yes, it’s downright radical, given the power and influence of AIPAC and our less than objective MSM, and given we Americans are told there is no sky or space between Israel or its manifested totally ethnocentric values and interests and America, home of full equal rights under law, yes radical to counter all this powerful pro-Likud zionist propaganda with simple facts that, if Americans knew, would tend to outrage them once they knew what they’ve been supporting with their tax dollars–the tiny, nuclear-armed & relatively wealthy state of Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid in US history–and still is, despite the fact Israel today is a rogue state and Americans really need their taxes to be directed to help their impoverished own people.

        • jonah says:

          it says we must give a blank check to Israel right or wrong in every way because God said so and we will go to hell if we object.

          So was the peace with Egypt, and the return of the entire Sinai Peninsula, as well as the peace treaty with Jordan also God’s will? Good to know, citizen.

        • jonah says:

          You continue to refuse to address the evidence and insist on attacking Peled-Elhanan.

          Peled-E. is a left-wing activist, known for her radical views. Why can only you accuse of bias and unreliability the right-wings?

        • Donald says:

          Israel made peace with Egypt after the 73 war because they realized Egypt posed a serious military threat. Egypt had offered peace before 73, but between 67 and 73 Israel had contempt for Egypt.

          And Jordan has long been regarded by some Israelis as the natural home for the Palestinians and aside from that, there’s always been a weird sort of half friend half enemy relationship between Israel and the Jordanian government.

          Palestinians don’t have the military might of Egypt, so they’ve been out of luck. What Israelis seem to understand is force, unfortunately.

        • Cliff says:

          What is radical about her views?

          She is radical when compared with someone like you! Hence, she is – most importantly – a true humanist.

        • jonah says:

          Egypt had offered peace before 73, but between 67 and 73 Israel had contempt for Egypt.

          False claim. You need to revise your biased historical opinions, Donald.
          Egypt peace proposalswere made on a take or leave it basis. Nothing new under the Arab-Palestinian sun.

          What Israelis seem to understand is force, unfortunately.

          The blame-Israel-mantra was and is always a good excuse to wage war against Israel. If this your belief, are you suggesting that only force will solve the conflict? Are you here just trying to make palatable the apology for anti-Israel violence?

        • Donald says:

          “The blame-Israel-mantra was and is always a good excuse to wage war against Israel. If this your belief, are you suggesting that only force will solve the conflict? Are you here just trying to make palatable the apology for anti-Israel violence?”

          Anti-Israeli violence is the only sort of violence that seems to interest Israel and its supporters. That’s my point, actually. Israel gives up territory for security, not because of anyone’s just claims. When the Egyptian military showed it was a formidable opponent in 1973, Israel suddenly became more interested in territorial swaps and peace with Egypt. Israel has always been willing to use violence to obtain land unjustly.

          But no, I don’t think violence against Israel will work for the Palestinians. If they could win that way, they would have the right to do it, (though not by targeting civilians) but they can’t and a lot of innocent people on both sides would die needlessly. I’d prefer nonviolent solutions anyway, but it’s hypocritical for me as an American to tell others that they should never use violence. Ideally, the Israelis would try to work with Palestinians to reach a mutually acceptable solution, but until then, it looks like some sort of pressure of the nonviolent type needs to be used.

          As for your book link, my reply is to suggest you read Avi Shlaim’s “The Iron Wall”.

        • jonah says:

          When the Egyptian military showed it was a formidable opponent in 1973, Israel suddenly became more interested in territorial swaps and peace with Egypt.

          Your reading of events is very indicative for the total enstrangement of anti-Zionist historiography from historical facticity. If it were not written before me, I could think that this was simply a bad joke. But it is not – this is real historical revisionism at work, practiced live.

          Just a little quiz for you, Donald:
          1) How many miles did Israeli troops get to within of Cairo, after having pushed back the Egyptian army and crossed the Suez Canal?
          2) How many miles did the Israeli troops get to within of Damascus, after having pushed back the Syrian forces from the Golan Heights, using the main road from Tiberias to the Syrian capital?

          Ideally, the Israelis would try to work with Palestinians to reach a mutually acceptable solution, but until then, it looks like some sort of pressure of the nonviolent type needs to be used.

          As explained above, there isn’t such a thing as “non-violence” in Palestinian attitude and actions. It’s an oxymoron in itself.

        • Shingo says:

          But it is not – this is real historical revisionism at work, practiced live.

          Says he who claimed that:

          a) the Hebron massacre was aimed at indigenous Jews when it clearly was not

          b) the occupation was a result to rocket attacks which only began in 2003 and terror attacks which began after 2000

          Just a little quiz for you, Jonah:
          1) Who received the biggest air lift of arms in history from Washington in 1973?
          2) Why did Israel threaten to resort to using nukes unless they received the biggest air lift of arms in history from Washington?

          As explained above, there isn’t such a thing as “non-violence” in Palestinian attitude and actions. It’s an oxymoron in itself.

          Look up the definition of “oxymoron”. 

          As Miko Peled said, Zionism is incompatible with peace.

          As Benny Morris said, ethnic cleansing lies at the very core of Zionism

          As the leaders of France, Germany and many others have observed, Israel is not interested in peace.

          Never was, never will be. After all, with the exception of 1973, Israel started every war since 1948.

          Zionism is racism.

        • Donald says:

          “Just a little quiz for you, Donald:
          1) How many miles did Israeli troops get to within of Cairo, after having pushed back the Egyptian army and crossed the Suez Canal?
          2) How many miles did the Israeli troops get to within of Damascus, after having pushed back the Syrian forces from”

          Don’t be stupid Jonah. I didn’t say that the Arabs won the 73 war. That’s the point of your quiz, but it just shows your utter inability to understand a different point of view. Yes, Israel won, but they got the fright of their life in the opening days of that war after the cakewalk of 67. They had brushed off Sadat’s peace offers before, but became serious afterwards. Try reading Avi Shlaim or Shlomo Ben Ami on this point. (Or maybe even Sy Hersh’s book on Kissinger–he’s got a chapter or two on Israel and Egypt as I recall.)

          Incidentally, I’m old enough to remember reading about the Yom Kippur War while it was happening. I was a Christian Zionist adolescent at the time and was cheering for you guys then. The Egyptians scared the sh** out of Israelis and people who were on their side, but you won in the end and at the time I was glad. Nowadays I’d take a more jaundiced view.

          “As explained above, there isn’t such a thing as “non-violence” in Palestinian attitude and actions. It’s an oxymoron in itself.”

          Yeah, no doubt you believe that. I knew plenty of white racists growing up–your attitude is drearily familiar.

        • Shingo says:

          Peled-E. is a left-wing activist, known for her radical views. Why can only you accuse of bias and unreliability the right-wings?

          It doesn’t matter if she’s a left-wing activist or not. Why can’t you address her arguments?

          You’re a right wing extremist. Does that mean I should simply attack you and not your views?

        • Shingo says:

          False claim. You need to revise your biased historical opinions, Donald.
          Egypt peace proposalswere made on a take or leave it basis. Nothing new under the Arab-Palestinian sun.

          Israeli propagandists always rejected peace offers by lablleing them as take or leave it offers, even when they’re not.

          Sadat’s offer was anything but a take or leave it offer. All he asked for was for a partial Israel pullback in the Sinai of 2 miles.

          link to books.google.com.au

          What Israelis seem to understand is force, unfortunately.

          VEry true. When ISrael rejetected his very modest request, Sadat realized that Israel wouldnot respond so long as the Arabs lacked the military capability or US diplmatic suport.

          The blame-Israel-mantra was and is always a good excuse to wage war against Israel.

          How can it be when Israel as started evry war since 1948 – with the exception of 1973, which was payback for 1967 anyway?

          The officials have refused to disclose their evidence for that allegation.

          The whole artilce is vague and full of qualifiers, just like the IAEA report. Lot’s of statements beginnign with “officials say”, but no evidence provided.

          Your logic simply doesn’t hold up Jonah.

    • dahoit says:

      You picked on the wrong people Gellian,these Arabs just won’t give up.Aint that a shame.
      I saw that the iron dome,one out of six,is really a tin foil dome.More of our tax dollars wasted,and this European deployment must have the criminals salivating over their profit margins rising on our idiocy.

  2. Hamishe_Sabz says:

    hopefully he ll be ok.

  3. Mndwss says:

    What? He threw a rock at our armored truck? This is how they thank us when we try to steal their land as peacefully as we can? Now they scratch the paint on our new truck? Open the door and shoot the ungrateful bastard in the head!

    IDF you give Jews, a bad name.

    • Kathleen says:

      a stone at an armored truck…Israeli assholes pure and simple brutal assholes

    • Tristan says:

      That reminds me of an article in The Onion, called “Israel Intercepts Massive Palestinian Rock Shipment”. My favorite line: “According to munitions expert James Wolk, if thrown with enough force and accuracy, the seized rocks ‘could create permanent scuff marks in an Israeli tank, and possibly even make a small dent.’”

      link to theonion.com

  4. Charon says:

    Definite precision and intent. And the aftermath video is very disturbing… not sure how one can survive something like that, not without loss of vision and brain damage. I hope he makes it.

    They say that video games and Hollywood have desensitized us to violence. It might be true for some people. I don’t know how anybody with a conscious can watch that aftermath video and not feel ill. The hasbarists will make an excuse to divert the topic. Like “That’s nothing… you should google the Fogel murder photos” for example. Or they’ll make an excuse that you can’t prove it was intentional. Well I’m not a mind reader and I’m pretty sure the solider will lie. The photo is proof, that and the soldiers have a history of deliberately firing these canisters at people. And if you’re going to make excuses about it, you have no heart or soul.

    • Taxi says:

      The idf are instructed to aim at the head. Remember the first intifada?

      “In the first weeks of the Intifada, head and upper-body injuries accounted for a great portion of Palestinian casualties. “A large part of those wounded by live bullets are those we indeed wanted to not only injure but kill,” wrote General Giora Eiland in a letter to Israeli human rights lawyer Neta Amar. “These are the same people that shoot at us with live ammunition. The fact that most of them are wounded in the upper body or head is a positive thing.”

      After a flurry of international condemnation, the rate of head and chest injuries dropped, replaced by devastating leg and abdomen wounds. “I consider it a form of torture,” says Kirschner of Physicians for Human Rights. “There’s no question in my mind that this was a very conscious military decision to use this weapon to wound people as a form of intimidation of the population. And as a result, probably several thousand young Palestinian men will end up with permanent disabilities.”

      The M16 ammunition was at first mistaken by Palestinian doctors for the dumdum bullet, banned by the Hague Convention in 1899. “Many people think that it’s a dumdum bullet, because if it does penetrate deep enough, it will break,” says Martin Fackler, a former army surgeon who now runs ballistics tests for the U.S. Department of Defense. “Fragmentation does cause more wounds.””
      link to ifamericaknew.org

  5. MRW says:

    “The Israeli army expressed regret that civilians were hurt in the attacks, which injured at least seven children.”

    A disciplined army would not make this mistake, not with years of occupation as practice.

    Cochons.

  6. American says:

    Where’s the sling shot? If you’re right handed you hold the sling shot in your left hand as you would an archery bow and there’s no sling shot in his left hand.
    If he’s left handed he’s holding the sling shot in the right hand hidden in front of him. So someone should ask. Not that it matters. Israelis don’t need an excuse to kill.

  7. Kathleen says:

    “the canister was precision and intent straight at his face” criminal…human rights organization alert. How many peoples eyes have Israeli soldiers put out?

    When you watch the clip of the Oakland police officer stepping back and lobbying the tear gas cannister at that young man who was seriously and purposely injured sure does make you think about that piece that Max wrote about Israeli officers training US police forces.

    Adam, Phil, Annie got a big plug in for Mondoweiss on The Ed Schultz radio program today. John Nichols from the Nation had just asked Rep Schakowsky (sp) about the claim that right wing Republicans were claiming that Obama had not been a friend to Israel. She was objecting to this description of Obama. I took the opportunity when I got on air to bring up how Mondoweiss was an important, fact based website where many views including Jewish American voices expressed about critical issues.

  8. Linah says:

    What a stupid act indeed. I am sick and tired of repeating the same thing over and over again to people who parade their self-righteousness with no concept of any context. Throwing rocks at the occupier is NOT a violent act. It has its own history for Palestinians, even before the first intifada. Throwing rocks at a brutal Nazi army is NOT a violent act. Being subjected to sound bombs, high velocity tear gas canisters fired deliberately at head level, and being shot at with rubber coated steel bullets (and live ammunition, depending on the mood of the soldiers) and responding by throwing a rock does NOT negate a peaceful protest. Chanting “peacefully” elicits the same reaction. So how’s that for a stupid act? Efft.

    • Hamishe_Sabz says:

      stupid ppl do stupid things….

    • MHughes976 says:

      I wouldn’t call this non-violent. I would call it legitimate self-defence.

    • Gellian says:

      “Throwing rocks at the occupier is NOT a violent act. ”

      What on earth are you talking about? It certainly isn’t a peaceful act, irrespective of what Israel does.

      Your attitude is white supremacy with a smile, and it’s offensive. You’re tacitly holding Palestinians to a lower standard than you do others (this is what I take your comment “It has its own history for Palestinians, even before the first intifada” to mean).

      As I said above, shooting teargas canisters at people’s faces is horrific and criminal. And of course it’s an act of violence.

      But what the hell is the point of throwing stones at soldiers? Do you think they aren’t going to react? Should they just stand there and allow themselves to be stoned?

      Would you?

      • Light says:

        The soldiers shouldn’t be there in the first place. Anyone with a conscience would refuse to serve in an occupying army.

      • mig says:

        Gellian :

        It certainly isn’t a peaceful act, irrespective of what Israel does.

        Irrespective of what Israel does ? Stealing land, dropping bombs, shooting civilians, but you cant throw a rock back ?

        As I said above, shooting teargas canisters at people’s faces is horrific and criminal. And of course it’s an act of violence.

        Before you said that irrespective what Israel does.

        But what the hell is the point of throwing stones at soldiers? Do you think they aren’t going to react?

        International law calls it “legal resistance of alien occupation”. Wanna join the club ?. And that reaction part we know allready.

        Should they just stand there and allow themselves to be stoned?

        Are they standing in the armored vehicle ? Does that vehicle stand even bullets but not stones ? Or is this something else….

        Been in quite similar situation myself. And we didnt shoot anyone. Stones cant pierce armour. Just a little hint. If you didnt know. No you do.

        But i guess that explanation number 2 enters arena pretty soon.

      • Mooser says:

        “You’re tacitly holding Palestinians to a lower standard than you do others”

        You bet I am, idiot! I would expect anybody to completly miliatarise their society, acquire arms, and shoot at them with RPGs and automatic weapons, if not heavy arms.
        That’s what I would do. Isn’t that what the Zionists did, to civilians, when they took over the place?

      • eljay says:

        >> But what the hell is the point of throwing stones at soldiers? Do you think they aren’t going to react? Should they just stand there and allow themselves to be stoned?

        1. The picture at the top of this page shows a civilian being shot from inside an armoured vehicle by a well-protected individual (presumably a soldier).
        2. Nabi Saleh is in the West Bank, not in Israel.

        Aggressor-victimhood is a tough gig.

      • iRevolt says:

        Why do Palestinians have to continuously defend themselves re: throwing stones, firing rockets etc.? Why? Have none of these self-righteous clowns read Fanon? Malcolm X? et al.

        I am sick, much like Linah, of hearing the tired old adage of looking for a Palestinian Gandhi, of wanting Palestinians to be more peaceful etc. etc. ad nauseam.

        Even when Palestinians are peacefully protesting they are dispersed with live-fire. When they sleep in their homes, uninvolved in the exchange with Hamas and the Israeli Army, they are slaughtered – see: latest killing in the Gaza Strip of children.

        Why do we even need to argue that it is not violent? And if it is? The occupied have a right to violently oppose their occupiers. Palestinians throw stones at the army occupying their land, slaughtering their people en masse, so why argue anything besides their RIGHT to oppose those subjugating them? The tactics used are justifiable.

        Educate yourself: link to zeroanthropology.net

        • Gellian says:

          “The occupied have a right to violently oppose their occupiers.”

          I don’t disagree with you, and despite what the replies to this and my earlier comment imply, I’m not on the Israelis’ side. I’m simply saying it’s (1) absolutely foolish to throw rocks at teenagers with guns who have a history of shooting people, because you are very likely to get shot yourself (as witness this poor man), and (2) you can’t throw rocks at people while claiming you’re making a peaceful protest.

          The principle is the old one: if you shoot at the king, you must kill the king.

        • RobertB says:

          Gellian… Take a moment & watch this youtube video of two former Israeli IDF describing in details the horrific Israeli IDF attacks on Palestinian homes, civilians… at 2 am…night after night…

          See if you can understand & make sense out of it!

          Click on link below to watch video

          ~~~~~~~~~

          Israeli Brutality – The Occupation, Human Rights Violations and War Crimes

        • Shingo says:

          I don’t disagree with you, and despite what the replies to this and my earlier comment imply, I’m not on the Israelis’ side.

          Yeah right Gellian. The star of David embroided on your underwear is just an oversight.

          I’m simply saying it’s (1) absolutely foolish to throw rocks at teenagers with guns who have a history of shooting people, because you are very likely to get shot yourself

          But you see nothing wrogn with the fact that there are teenagers with guns who have a history of shooting people where they have no right to be.

          (2) you can’t throw rocks at people while claiming you’re making a peaceful protest.

          You can if you began protesting peacefully and the occupation forces began violently putting down the protest.

        • eGuard says:

          Gellian 4:15 pm: Should they just stand there and allow themselves to be stoned?
          Gellian 8:18 pm: I’m not on the Israelis’ side

      • Mooser says:

        “Your attitude is white supremacy with a smile, and it’s offensive. You’re tacitly holding Palestinians to a lower standard than you do others…”

        ROTFLMSJAO!!!! Ah, so we’re the one guilty of “white supremacy”?
        Gellian, go play in the sand box with the other kids. You’re like a little smart-ass kid pretending he’s a grown-up.

      • Shingo says:

        You’re tacitly holding Palestinians to a lower standard than you do others…

        What other occupied population are we supposed to compare them too?

        But what the hell is the point of throwing stones at soldiers?

        What the hell is he point of teh soliders being there? It’s not like they are part of a good will initiative.

        hould the Palestinians just stand there and allow themselves to be occupied? Would you?

      • American says:

        ” Do you think they aren’t going to react? Should they just stand there and allow themselves to be stoned?
        Would you?”…..

        They weren’t standing there, they were in a armored truck.
        If you were standing outside my house or car throwing stones at it should I blow your head off from the comfort of my protected seat?

  9. radii says:

    and these tactics we’ve imported from our “friend” and “ally” israel … just another day at the office over there, where violence and racism and ethnic-cleansing are celebrated (as are the efforts of a spy who did more harm to America than any other person)

  10. FreddyV says:

    Disgusting.

    An utterly disproportionate response to the violence of stone throwing.

    But sadly the response however disproportionate, was a response.

    We’re dealing with kids barely out of school being given weaponry and responding in the petulant way a man child with no experience of life and humanity can.

    Whether this person feels guilt or whether he’s proud of his actions, we’ll probably never know. I hope he does, but I doubt he’ll be disciplined.

    In other words. Throw stones at the IDF, expect them to f*ck you up. I truly hate my comment, but I think there’s some truth in it.

    I hope and pray Mustafa makes a full recovery.

    • Mooser says:

      “We’re dealing with kids barely out of school being given weaponry and responding in the petulant way a man child with no experience of life and humanity can. “

      What utter nonsense! They are soldiers, they are under the command of officers, who are under orders from and obey policies set by their superiors. Soldiers do not decide when and if they will fire any particular weapons, they follow orders.

      • Citizen says:

        Yes, Mooser, that’s correct. I was a soldier at age 18, and most of the guys in my squad, company were teen-agers. And none of us, even the most unruly, would have fired in such situation without direct orders. And those IDF soldiers were inside an armored light truck. When we rode at all, we rode in canvas-topped trucks, and we would not have fired without direct orders even under a rain of stones. We did have helmets.

      • FreddyV says:

        Hey Mooser.

        I’m sorry to hear that Mustafa Tamimi passed away today.

        I wasn’t defending this. It’s deplorable and I agree with you and Citizen regarding chain of command within the Israeli military, but I’m talking about the person that pulled the trigger.

        Shooting someone in the face at almost point blank range? Is this the act of a person who fully understands the consequences of his actions? Who understands that he could creating a widow or leaving a child fatherless? It’s not someone who is mature enough to understand humanity. Or perhaps I am wrong and this person understood completely. That would make them a monster.

        Under orders or not, that person fired with lethal intent in a situation that did not require lethal force and should have been capable of reading the situation, which was the point I was attempting to make in my post. I don’t think many of these ‘soldiers’ have the ability to make such calls. I defer to citizen’s post.

        ‘I was a soldier at age 18, and most of the guys in my squad, company were teen-agers.’

        Scared kids with no idea of the consequences of their actions.

        I hope this is investigated by the IDF, but I doubt it will be.

        My thoughts and prayers are with the Tamimi family.

        • dahoit says:

          What,Israelis are incapable of being monsters?Humanity would disagree.

        • Mooser says:

          “Scared kids with no idea of the consequences of their actions.”

          Oh, come on! Please, how goddam stupid do you think I am? There was no sergeant, lieutenant, squad leader, whatever in the truck? There was no radio contact with base?
          And as far as the “consequences” go, I’m sure Citizen, who is a vet, can tell you exactly what the consequences of firing your weapons against orders would be.
          Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that military missions are like TV or movies.
          And okay, let’s say the Israelis sent out a truckfull of armed kids, with no officer or contact, and no specific rules of engagement? Why would they do that, except in hopes that this very thing would happen, and Israel could evade responsibility.
          Jeez, it’s amazing how stupid Zionists can be. What is breathtaking, tho, is how stupid they expect others, especially Jews, to be. I live in fear of the day people figure out how smart we really are.

        • FreddyV says:

          Mooser,
          I am not a Zionist. I resented that comment. I did compose, but thought better of posting an angry refutation of your comments.

          I’m glad I didn’t. I’ve just seen the IDF tweets posted up on an article on this site.

          For the record, I’m an ex Christian Zionist. Fully repented and actively encouraging other Christian Zionists to see their error.

          Being Christian, I was offering an explanation or excuse for this horrible situation.

          After seeing this (link below), please accept my apologies and misunderstanding. I’m looking for the best in people. You seem to have another perspective which appears completely validated in the link below.

          link to mondoweiss.net

          Tearful thoughts and prayers to the Tamimi family.

        • Taxi says:

          Freddy,
          The Palestinians have had sixty-four years of continuous Mustafa Tamimi moments. R.I.P. every single one of them.

          Truly, I appreciate your christian awakening and your earnest empathy.

          It’s crazy to think that your christian zionist friends would think that Jesus would approve of israel’s unrepentant crimes against humanity.

          What was it that woke you up? And what will it take to wake up your old flock?

        • FreddyV says:

          Hey Taxi,

          What woke me up?

          The flotilla raid and the public outcry against it. Christian Zionism isn’t that big in the UK, and I couldn’t understand why people were so against ‘God’s chosen people’.

          I was intending to take to the pulpit in defence of Israel. In order to prepare, I thought it best to understand both sides of the conflict. The more I read, the less I found the Zionist position squared with the Bible.

          I’ve since learned that Christian Zionists generally hold to a theology called premillenialism in it’s various forms. They believe that this conflict is part of God’s plan for the end times and Jesus’ return. The Jews must be in Israel, the Temple must be rebuilt. Ironically, it’s completely anti Semitic as it demands that 2/3rd of the Jews in Israel as wiped out with the remainder turning to Christ. Nuts eh?

          The thing is, many people who believe in Christian Zionism don’t actually research the theology fully. I didn’t and when I did, I ran.

          There are an estimated 30-50 million Americans who hold to this belief to varying degrees. In my opinion, the massive US support for Israel lies here.

        • Citizen says:

          FreddyV, when I was an eighteen-year old soldier, I did have some idea of the consequences of my actions, and so did all the guys around my age in my unit. We knew we held lethal weapons, and we knew what somebody throwing stones was in terms of danger; besides, even the stupid and most insensitive and violence-prone among us would fear military punishment if we fired, especially on civilians, without a direct order to do so. You are not talking light punishment. I think it’s safe to assume everybody in that armored truck knew the rules of engagement for their mission. I’ve read the IDF prides itself on its lack of worship of rank and soldierly deportment, but I don’t know how this common group character may affect such situations as the case here. It may be that the typical IDf soldier looks on Palestinians as subhuman; if so, the combination of laxity and such a view certainly does not aid preventing such incidents.

        • Taxi says:

          Thanks for sharing Freddy.

          Hope you spread the word, the truth about what’s really going on with Palestinians: moslems, jewish and christian Palestians – the real guardians and indigenous people of the holy land.

          I don’t know much about religion, but I do know enough to think that Jesus, being the prophet of compassion and love, would himself be throwing stones at idf tanks who terrorize and murder his countryfolk, whatever religious persuasion they may be, especially the children, the sick and the aged.

          Please also remember that Arab jews are the original decedents of the ancient hebrews, not the euro converts whose arabophobia and land theft is the very source of the violent instability in the middle east.

        • Mooser says:

          “Scared kids with no idea of the consequences of their actions.”

          You are nothing but a goddam liar, buddy! Funny, for “kids” who have “no idea of the consequences of their actions” they don’t seem to fire their weapons at each other when they argue, and they never seem to fire their weapons at their officers, if they are given an order they find objectionable.
          They only seem to have “no idea of the consequences of their actions” when they fire at Palestinians.

          Again, no matter what you say, the only basis for your ideas being acceptable is a mutual agreement that Palestinian life is worth less than others. And you won’t get that from me.

        • tree says:

          FreddyV,

          Shooting someone in the face at almost point blank range? Is this the act of a person who fully understands the consequences of his actions? Who understands that he could creating a widow or leaving a child fatherless? It’s not someone who is mature enough to understand humanity. Or perhaps I am wrong and this person understood completely. That would make them a monster.

          I just posted this on another thread, but it seems quite apropos here:

          Peled-Elhanan, a professor of language and education at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has studied the content of Israeli school books for the past five years, and her account, Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education, is to be published in the UK this month. She describes what she found as racism– but, more than that, a racism that prepares young Israelis for their compulsory military service.

          “People don’t really know what their children are reading in textbooks,” she said. “One question that bothers many people is how do you explain the cruel behaviour of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians, an indifference to human suffering, the inflicting of suffering. People ask how can these nice Jewish boys and girls become monsters once they put on a uniform. I think the major reason for that is education. So I wanted to see how school books represent Palestinians.

          In “hundreds and hundreds” of books, she claims she did not find one photograph that depicted an Arab as a “normal person”. The most important finding in the books she studied – all authorised by the ministry of education – concerned the historical narrative of events in 1948, the year in which Israel fought a war to establish itself as an independent state, and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled the ensuing conflict.

          The killing of Palestinians is depicted as something that was necessary for the survival of the nascent Jewish state, she claims. “It’s not that the massacres are denied, they are represented in Israeli school books as something that in the long run was good for the Jewish state. For example, Deir Yassin [a pre-1948 Palestinian village close to Jerusalem] was a terrible slaughter by Israeli soldiers. In school books they tell you that this massacre initiated the massive flight of Arabs from Israel and enabled the establishment of a Jewish state with a Jewish majority. So it was for the best. Maybe it was unfortunate, but in the long run the consequences for us were good.”

          Children, she says, grow up to serve in the army and internalise the message that Palestinians are “people whose life is dispensable with impunity. And not only that, but people whose number has to be diminished.”

          link to miftah.org

        • FreddyV says:

          Mooser,

          I don’t know what your problem is.

          I’ve stated my case that I was offering the benefit of doubt and was discovered I was wrong after reading the post here about the IDF tweets, after which, I posted an apology to you.

          I am not a Zionist or a liar. Naive, I would agree to, but please take the trouble to read my other posts here.

        • eGuard says:

          Freddy V 3:20: For the record, I’m an ex Christian Zionist.

          And off the record you are … still waving the blue-and-white apology flag.

        • FreddyV says:

          Jeez…….

          No. I am not. I am not making apologies for Israel. I naively posited some kind of explanation for how one human being could commit such an act towards another, which I was rightly shouted down for, proved wrong and for which I apologised for. Again, I apologise for thinking Israeli soldiers are decent human beings.

          I WAS WRONG! THEY ARE ANIMALS!

          What more do you want me to say?

          More to the point, what is up with you? I understand people are in pain over Mustafa Tamimi’s death. It’s woken me up a few times over the last couple of nights, but it seems you want to run me off when I’m on your side.

          Really intelligent…..

          Again, take the trouble to read my posts. I will always apologise when I am wrong.

        • Citizen says:

          FreddyV, towards all of us getting a better understanding of the mind of a Christian fundie basically supporting Israel as God told them to support “The Jews” or “the Jewish people”–when you told us you had a change of heart (at least partially) due to the murder of the Gaza boat folks, it makes some of us wonder what took you so long to investigate what Israel has been doing to the Palestinian folks for so long?

          Part of the reason I am asking is when I converse (via email exchange) with Christian fundies, often I find they will send to their email list any alleged isolated incident at all that might reflect badly on Muslims, yet they go out of their way to ignore detailed news, even by established mainstream media sources, that might indicate or shows a pattern of negative activity on the part of Jewish neocons or “pro-Israel supporters” or of the Israeli government it self or the culture in Israel. They never see anything in such activity that might suggest their own country’s best interests might be in danger due to such an enmeshment with Israeli interests, nor do they see their personal saviour Jesus might not approve of Israeli conduct towards the Arabs under Israel’s control.

        • eGuard says:

          Freddy V orig cmt 3:48: Throw stones at the IDF, expect them to f*ck you up.

          Now, there is not much more I want you to say. At all.

        • FreddyV says:

          At the time I wasn’t aware of the gravity of Mustafa’s injuries and would not have used that terminology. Here I am apologising again.

          I wasn’t saying that the retaliation was deserved, I was saying that is what to be expected. The IDF’s response by and large is completely disproportionate. As I said on the first line of that post.

          ‘An utterly disproportionate response to the violence of stone throwing’

          I don’t seem to be able to apologise enough or explain my position here without being misquoted or called a liar.

        • eljay says:

          >> I wasn’t saying that the retaliation was deserved, I was saying that is what to be expected. The IDF’s response by and large is completely disproportionate. As I said on the first line of that post.

          FWIW, I accept that your statement was not intended to be inflammatory, provocative or deceitful.

          Yes, retaliation was to be expected and, yes, it was completely disproportinate. And, sadly, it is likely that no-one will be held accountable for it.

        • FreddyV says:

          Hey Citizen,

          Thank you for taking the trouble to enquire my position. This thread and the terrible story of Mustafa has removed any questions of doubt for IDF intentions. I’ll now call it how it is. They will not receive any benefit of doubt from me ever again and I will again here and finally apologise one last time.

          As I mentioned to Taxi, I kicked the ‘Israel theology’ to the curb over a year ago. This area is the biggest problem in the whole Israel / Palestine conflict. You have 30-50 (estimated) American evangelicals believing Genesis 12:3. ‘I will bless those who bless you and curse those that curse you’. That promise was made by God to Abraham. Christian Zionists take that to include the offspring of Abraham. The Jews.

          Aside from it being theologically incorrect, you have people who believe that if the Jews are God’s chosen people and they have to be blessed. Not only that, anyone who curses them comes under the wrath of God. Now, I ask you: Where does that place the Palestinian people? In the mind of a fundie, they’re cursers of God’s chosen people. I’ve been told the Palestinians are unregenerate (not capable of receiving salvation) and those who are Christians, are not true Christians due to them not being pro Israel. Does this explain why it’s so difficult to break? As far as my family are concerned, I am cursed. I will be going to hell, which I must say is hurtful, but the thing is with this pro Israel belief, once you ‘un see’ it. you can’t see it ever again.

          By and large, the Palestinian plight isn’t widely covered in the UK. The two biggest news companies are the BBC, who are pretty good, but have a strict policy of impartiality. Every article must be balanced. The other is SKY. Rupert Murdoch. Need I say more?

          If you’re in a social circle where the pro Israel side is largely promoted, that’s what you believe as truth. Hasbara doesn’t spend millions on Israel’s public image for nothing. If those people who believe in ‘God’s Chosen People’ are bombarded with pro Zionist spin, and throw in the risk of ostracisation from their peers, and not forgetting the wrath of God, not many are going to budge. It’s tough to break.

          If you think Hasbara spin is bad, you should see some of the emails I’ve received relating to curses from God because of people speaking out against Israel. Japan’s tsunami. Hurricane Katrina. The BP oil spill. The floods in Australia. The volcanic eruption in Norway. That one was priceless. It was said that it was God’s wrath because the UK banned the Israeli Ministry of Tourism from using the Wailing Wall and Al Asqua Mosque in images to promote Israel. So God sent an ash cloud to disrupt air traffic over Britain. Mind blowing eh? But people I know, who are otherwise sane people believe this.

          The big thing that changed me was the reaction to the flotilla. Our PM, David Cameron called Gaza a ‘huge prison’. What??? The good people of Israel surrendered part of their promised land in search of peace! How dare he say that? Hasbara, as we all know is nothing but smoke and mirrors. you only need to peep behind the curtain to see it, but who wants to risk falling under God’s curse?

          Once I did take a peep, the first question: How on earth does this belief square with the person, nature and teaching of Jesus Christ in light of the situation in Palestine. It doesn’t.

          If you look at those Christians who are outspoken on this theology and Palestine, you find time and time again that they believed it themselves and have repented. Repentance means to turn away or reject. It’s natural to react against what you believed as truth to be a lie. This is what needs to happen in the Christian Zionist movement. This belief is why US dollars are funding Israel. That’s why Netanyahu gets 100% of votes in the Senate and 26 standing ovations. The electorate is indoctrinated and the politicians are scared to lose influence. Once you have Christians seeing the truth, the whole stack of cards will come down.

          The other issue is, how are those people, like me going to be received in places like this. I’ve been nearly two years out of this and still I can’t get my head around stuff. Excuse my misreading of things, wishing for better of people and learning through bitter disappointment, but once the scales start falling from the eyes of the masses, you’re going to have a whole bunch of very confused people realising they’ve lived a lie and supported a monster.

          I hope this gives you some answers.

        • FreddyV says:

          Thank you eljay.

        • Mooser says:

          “If you’re in a social circle where the pro Israel side is largely promoted, that’s what you believe as truth.”

          Really? I grew up Jewish, in Zionist circles. Your problem of terminal credulity is your own. You may have rejected one assinine theology-ideology, but the next one will be along soon.

        • Mooser says:

          “Again, I apologise for thinking Israeli soldiers are decent human beings.
          I WAS WRONG! THEY ARE ANIMALS!”

          You are really something, Freddy, really something! Your Christian Zionism let you down, so you immediately sink to anti-Semitism?
          Fred, if you can’t think straight, it really doesn’t matter which theology-ideology you embrace, it’ll always come out the same.

        • FreddyV says:

          Mooser,

          ‘I grew up Jewish, in Zionist circles.’

          Wow! Really? When did you have an awakening? Or did you intuitively know from the cradle that Zionism was inherently faulty?

          It’s quite apparent that whatever I say or however many apologies I make, it’s not going to satisfy you. Frankly, you’re like an angry drunk. You’re so full of vitriol that you don’t know or care who you’re attacking as long as it makes you feel good. I understand that anger, but I don’t deserve it. There’s better places to direct it. I f*cked up and I’ve apologised endlessly and unashamedly to you. Why can’t you accept that?

          I’m here trying to explain my position after being flamed, libeled and accused and guess what? I’m still here. Perhaps I’m a Ziobot lulling you all into a false sense of security before I unleash some new form of Hasbara.

          On the other hand, I may be sincere, albeit a little naive and still a little misguided and misinformed, but very sincerely looking to clarify and make amends for my error.

          The point is, what are you going to do when Christian Zionists turn up here wanting answers (and believe me, they will)? Tell them to f*ck off? Like you have me? Great plan. You’re onto a real winner there……

          From your posts, you’re a really smart guy, so listen closely.

          I am not your enemy.

          We are on the same side.

          Can we call this a day. Please? I hate being at odds with people, even those I converse with online.

          Regards

          Fred.

        • eGuard says:

          Freddy V: thanks for giving this background. Still, I have little patience with once-believer’s logic as you wrote here. To me, “ex christian zionist” does not sound like a free mind yet. I have left the habit long ago: start reasoning from point-in-time X. MY reflex question was: what was that jeep doing there in the first place? The issue did not start when the armoured jeep and the protesters met by coincidence.

        • eGuard says:

          Freddy V, now about some details:
          curses from God … the volcanic eruption in Norway.
          Dunno about that, you could mean Iceland? God has his own agent in Norway, called Breivik. Or, a more direct relation with Israel: the anti-Semitic thing with Norway is through the salmon. As they teach at kindergarten (1:10 for this detail).

          Next: … the Palestinian plight isn’t widely covered in the UK. The two biggest news companies are the BBC, who are pretty good, but have a strict policy of impartiality.
          I object to the “pretty good BBC”, and BBC being “impartial”. Compared to Murdoch/Fox maybe, but that is not enough. Like, the compass of the Titanic is useless too by now. I recall: after the Gaza attacks (2008-2009, white phosphor on children, 1300+ dead, Goldstone), BBC-chief Mark Thompson did not allow broadcasting the grand Humanitarian Aid fundraiser for Gaza. And on the Mavi Marmara, BBC Panorama passed through the Israel Navy hasbara talk unedited, while breaking a promise after interviewing an attacked passenger (Jane Corbin sure can hold a mike).

        • FreddyV says:

          eGuard:

          Yes it is a free mind. More so than denial. I’m not going to shy away from my past or current ignorance. This thread has annoyed me. God knows if the Tamimi family has read it. I feel quite ashamed that it’s been derailed in the way it has. Please read through my posts. I was quite willing to give the benefit of the doubt and account petulance or childishness to an IDF soldier. My honest and genuine mistake. I am truly sorry to think that all people share an equal value of human life.

          Please consider this thread as my ‘point in time X’. I’m not making some sad attempt at poetry when I say that. I truly screwed up.

          Regards

          Fred.

        • FreddyV says:

          Mooser,

          Amazing.

          You’ve attacked me as a Zionist, a liar, gullible, and finally an anti semite. For the record, calling Israeli soldiers animals isn’t anti semitism. I was talking about the way the IDF treat people. I wasn’t talking about Jewish people. The old ‘red mist’ has clouded your judgement there…..

          I’m completely stunned.

          Go punch a bag or something.

          Or better still: Accept that I f*cked up in a previous post. Accept that I have a lot to learn. I’m admitting it, so why can’t you?

          I said I’d apologised for the last time in a previous post. I will apologise again. Just for you. I am sorry.

          Please, because this is getting stupid now……

        • FreddyV says:

          eGuard,

          Sorry, you got me on the Norway / Iceland thing. Iceland screwed the UK with dodgy banking deals. They did it again? Damn. My bad.

          Are you saying the BBC are worse than we think here? Zionists continually slate the BBC, saying it’s too pro Palestinian.

          I guess impartiality leaves you hated by everyone. I kind of know the feeling…..

        • FreddyV says:

          eGuard,

          Just to clarify, I take your comments on board. I was trying to inject a bit of humour into the thread after having the ‘e’ shit beat out of me.

          Apologies if I sounded insulting.

          Regards,

          Fred.

        • eGuard says:

          Frewddy V: you are not insulting. But if you keep listening to the BBC unchecked, I will be.

        • Djinn says:

          Zionism is pretty compatible with the Bible I’ve read – God says its OK to kill certain unpeople. There’s far more of that kind of stuff in the Bible than there is of the turn the other cheek love thy neighbour stuff.

          Using ancient morality written by (or copied by – far too many similarities with older god myths) people who believed the earth was flat that has been translated, retranslated and edited for political expediency over the years to base one’s actions on is a fruitless endeavour. People with evil intent can find plenty in the Bible (or any other holy book) to justify their actions (god is down with slavery why shouldnt we be – god is down with offering up ones daughter to mass rape why shouldnt we be) and good people do the same.

          Religion is utterly irrelevant to people’s motivations, it’s just used as an excuse (for the bad) and an explanation (for the good) that people were going to do anyway

        • FreddyV says:

          Hey Djinn,

          I was having this discussion with a Zionist the other night. The question was: ‘If God is unchanging, then why was killing a good thing in Joshua’s time, but not now?’

          Simple answer is, I don’t know. Aside from the book of Joshua being neither regarded as a historical or factual document in the eyes of almost every scholar, in my opinion, rather than pointing to occasions in the Bible where justification for an act can be found, those who are turning to the Bible for guidance should be looking to specific instructions. In the case of Judaism, The Ten Commandments. Zionism has broken every one in one shape or form, some quite blatantly. Christianity additionally has Christ’s words as a moral compass.

          I don’t think there is any Biblical case for Zionism or Christian support for Zionism in either case unless you selectively pluck scriptures and distort them to fit an end. Zionism has never been led by scripture. It abuses it to suit it’s twisted ideologies.

        • Citizen says:

          The fundies I communicate with, all nice and upright people (mostly women) generally, I know for a fact, never show any indication they will seriously look at the inconsistencies in their general Hallmark-type view of their precious and personal Jesus, who is a responsible citizen and never forced anyone to help thy neighbor like the government does, but did so himself, and the wonder of God and the Universe, and even quarks have their place in God’s great plan, etc. I’ve sent them tons of material on biblical atrocities claimed therein as God’s will, not the least of which is the story of Joshua. None of this, nor my arguments re any, including re the existence of God, as debated classically–makes one shred of difference with any of these fundies. Ditto re the I-P conflict facts. Ditto US wars of choice, etc–All water off a fundy’s back.
          It actually horrifies me. They always say they will pray for me, and they all sent me email Xmas cards. Go figure.

        • FreddyV says:

          Hey Citizen,

          It is a kind of weird detachment, which is precisely what I couldn’t subscribe to when I started seeking the truth.

          Another anecdote: I was sat with a bunch of people who were discussing the Holocaust and the birth of Israel. I mentioned the Zionist cooperation with the Nazis and the famous quote that ‘a single cow in Palestine is worth all the Jews in Poland’.

          I was met with shoulder shrugs. It’s worse than denial. Reasonable debate is closed down for fear of them placing a curse on themselves.

          I know I’m one of the few who has a major interest in this side of the I/P situation, but at the same time I see it as one of the most fundamental problems. How Christian support for Zionism is going to be broken, I don’t know. The theology and the accompanying literature by it’s so called scholars is a true ‘opiate for the masses’. Even though these ‘scholars’ are consistently wrong in their interpretations and prophesies and are repeatedly disproved, people love a good bit of sci fi and this is the Daddy of them all.

          Someone posted a thread on here positing if the one state solution happened, what would the new state call itself instead of Israel so as to be all inclusive. That would certainly bend things all out of shape for them, but I’m sure they’d use the change to rehash previous books etc and prove they were right all along.

        • Citizen says:

          FreddyV, you may have something when you say the fundies are afraid of placing a curse on themselves. Anyway, it sure is always an interesting encounter with the swiss cheese in a fundie’s brain. I think whatever machine made the holes there may be the same one that made the holes in the typical Jewish Zionist or Jewish PEP swiss cheese brain. Perhaps it’s just that most human beings cannot live with ambiguity, to say the least, and many cannot live with having their whole framework of inculcated perception demolished? It is kinda amazing some of us dance along silently on the edge, knowing nobody can save them from falling, wondering always, yet still retaining basic sense of justice and fairness; in fact walking, dancing, trembling on it, inching along, day by day.

        • FreddyV says:

          Citizen:

          Yes! Swiss cheese!!

          Ding ding! We have a winner. That’s exactly what it’s like. They have huge gaps in their rationale. I know it’s all about the blessing and cursing thing, but it does mean that they need to skip over certain things. The best I ever got from a Zionist re: I/P was: ‘Sure, there are problems…’, but you never get any more. The minute you start saying ‘what about equal rights / occupation / ethnical cleansing’, they jump down your throat with quotes directly from the Hasbara handbook and all attempts to show them evidence to the contrary is belligerently ignored.

          To my mind, something so stubborn that it closes down reasonable debate has an underlying issue. Any Zionist will happily discuss about creation, salvation, the flood, but the minute you challenge them on Israel, the heckles come up.

          I would also point to the fact that many Christian Zionists are completely ignorant of the theology they hold to. It is complex and self contradictory and requires a large degree of theological gymnastics. I think many people may react with an attack dog mentality. They don’t know why, but you’re threatening the thing they believe in. I don’t know…..

          I’d suggest asking a Zionist how they feel about 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel being wiped out according to their theology. I’d imagine many haven’t examined their theology that far. This particular doctrine has been dressed up with a poetic name: The Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Sounds cute, but it’s dubbed by Zionist scholars as the greatest bloodbath in history.

          Thanks for the ‘swiss cheese’ thing. Very apt.

        • Citizen says:

          A Christian Zionist/fundie or Jewish Zionist/IsraelFirster brain is exactly like swiss cheese because there are holes of various sizes in it that simply stay holes in that any logic and facts that are not there, remain not there–unless the cheese melts. Cheesy, eh?

          If you bring the heat, the swiss cheesehead dials you back to its processing, e.g., the assumptions that equal how its made. If you keep up the heat, the swiss cheesehead runs away from you, the microwave, made by Maslow’s top tier.

  11. Kathleen says:

    Contact Reps let them know we are out here

  12. Kathleen says:

    And of course the “liberal” types like Rachel Maddow, Richard Engel etc will never turn their cameras on these crimes. Never. Unless you are a rebel in Libya carrying a weapon and shooting it wildly and randomly in the air these “liberals” will not touch the I/P issue….their owners will not allow it

    • Citizen says:

      Yeah, Kathleen, I wonder if Rachel Maddow would even if she had her employer’s ok. Everything she says practically has logic and some nuance, but she’s always applying a double standard. Of course, people like Hannity do the same thing on the other channel.

      • Kathleen says:

        But Hanity does not try to pretend he is something else besides a right wing radical. Not sure if he daily hides behind Christianity like so many of the right wingers. Maddow just hide behind her liberal tag while spewing right wing radical war mongering towards Iran as well as never touching the Palestinian issue. In essence she is a hypocrite

    • dahoit says:

      Landscraping to the news room huh?It’s good to be the hedge trimmer at Dianne Sawyers place.I wonder if Pedro Peon would have been given the same opportunity?
      (check out her bio)

  13. Bumblebye says:

    Does f*cking Liebobitch not understand the difference between a slingshot flinging stones at an armored bloody vehicle, and the the use of a gun to fire a canister directly at a human face?????!!!!!
    There is NO effing excuse that is remotely adequate for what the IOF or filthy “border” police shites do.

  14. Hamishe_Sabz says:

    is it true that Mustafa is in intensive care in an Israeli hospital.

  15. Cliff says:

    link to ynetnews.com

    Look at those comments.

    That is Zionism. Disgusting.

  16. Sparkle says:

    Israeli military expenditure consumes 12.3% of GDP. According to evidence given to the Russell Tribunal on Palestine, the Israeli diamond industry generates over $1 billion/yr in funding for the nuclear-armed Israeli military that stands accused of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity by the UN HRC. Jewellers who sell Israeli diamonds and claim they are conflict-free are helping to fund the sort of human rights violations witnessed today in Nabi Saleh and every day in Gaza. Fifty percent of the diamonds, in value terms, sold in America are crafted in Israel and sold as conflict-free diamonds to unsuspecting consumers who have no idea they are funding the Israeli military regime.
    Earlier this week, Brilliant Earth, a world-leading online diamond retailer which sells Israeli diamonds, censored thier Facebook Wall when fans asked if any of thier “ethically sourced”, “conflict-free” diamonds are cut and polished in Israel.
    Blue Nile, another world-leading online diamond retailer, also sells diamonds crafted in Israel and claims thier diamonds are conflict-free.
    Diamonds account for 30% of Israel’s exports. Jewellers worldwide must be held to account for facilitating the trade in Israeli blood diamods that are funding the nuclear-armed belligernet that murders, maims and terrorises with impunity. A lot more information available on this Facebook page – link to facebook.com

  17. Alex and Phil
    This photo of Mustafa after he was shot in the face would have perfectly complemented the illustration of this odious act:
    link to 972mag.com

    link to 972mag.com

    • MRW says:

      I agree. American Jews and Zionists need to see what they support. See it. And then let’s hear their justification for it. How the IDF had no choice but to take out this guy’s face because of the holocaust or Israel’s security. I want to hear the insanity.

      That little girl running naked down the road in Vietnam screaming in agony from the jellied gasoline and white phosphorous on her skin was shown on the evening news during dinner time. It hit everybody in the gut. It stopped the war fever. (It’s why graphic photos aren’t allowed on TV or in the press since, the whole embedded nonsense we didn’t fight.)

      That photo–it took 17 operations to save her life, her chin was welded to her chest by the time the photographer got her to the hospital–changed the course of history.

    • omg, i cannot imagine we would use that. i was really grateful of the warning on the video. i opened it and started to watch but once i saw, once i saw i closed the whole page. just lurched for the red dot so fast. it is so horrific to go for someones head at such a close distance, or any distance. mustafa is not the goliath here.

      • MRW says:

        I understand what you are saying, but we need the see this stuff, annie. We need to see what it is that we do. We cause others to live with what we do, and we can’t look at it? We need to see the results of our actions and choices. It is an act of profound hypocrisy on our part to refuse to face the death we cause because it causes us pain or discomfort to look at photos of it.

        Think of the army scandal this week: the army was discovered dumping body parts and crematory remains in the Delaware landfill. That is a direct result of the edict that prohibits showing or filming bodies coming back from war. Military families trusted the Pentagon to give their kids a proper burial.

        I don’t like to look at that stuff any more than you, but if the news teams led each half news hour with these stark images, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have been over half a decade ago.

        • let’s honor Mustafa today by sharing the beauty of his face.

          and argue tomorrow.

          peace

        • dahoit says:

          Agreed,the barbarity of our actions are hidden,as is the plan.As you said,if the images were transmitted to US,there would be an outcry,witness Wikileaks and the helicopter incident.Which made the US public sit up and take notice.Exactly what our minders don’t want.

        • American says:

          I understand what you are saying, but we need the see this stuff”..MRW

          Yes we do, we need our faces rubbed in it, smeared particulary in the faces of the curb sitting, war mongering, pasty assed blowhearts and chickenhawk politicians.

  18. As I have postulated in a previous post ( link to mondoweiss.net ) this is absolute proof that there is no god.

    • john h says:

      As I have postulated in a previous post (link to mondoweiss.net), this is absolute proof that there is no god.

      The fitting answer is also in that thread:

      No, it just proves that there is no such thing as a good Israel. this proves that evil does exist.

      Since gawd hasn’t been proven to exist in the first place, there’s no need to disprove it. That human nature contains much ugliness is, sadly, proven true far too often.

  19. iRevolt says:

    @Gellian the excuse you’re trying to use, that the soldiers are just doing as told (more or less) is clear-cut nonsense. Whether it’s your intention to lunge for the sympathy button or not, it won’t work with me and obviously no one else.

    On another note, I saw the picture of Mustafa’s face post-attack. I didn’t flinch. It’s not something I’m saying out of pride, no; I’m numb to seeing this type of gore and it scares me. They’ve made whole generations of Arabs accustomed to suffering. After seeing body parts ripped from sockets, corpses piled atop one another, I have become almost numb to the blood and the piles of skin. I hate Israel, for taking away even the innocence that lay behind our own eyes.
    That some of us do not lower our gaze or vomit shows the extent of the damage their brutality has had on our very hearts.

  20. mikeo says:

    He is dead. Sorry for his family and friends…

  21. seafoid says:

    Mustafa Tamimi, 28, died of his wounds after being hit by a teargas canister fired by Israeli security forces (sic) in the village of Nabi Saleh.

    link to haaretz.com

    another human sacrifice for the Golden Yesha Calf

  22. eGuard says:

    The slingshot connection that IDF has published looks like a fake. There is no slingshot on the pictures, and why would IDF keep a piece of evidence on a bed?

  23. Mustafa passed away this morning.

  24. May all the dark energy released by this vile act condense into the most potent of forces and eradicate all traces of these inhuman beasts from the face of this planet, leaving the innocents unscathed.

    … to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee.

    —Moby-Dick

    • Cliff says:

      link to ynetnews.com

      More vile Zionist comments.

      He went for his weekly entertainment/exercise.

      Nobody is to be blamed because he got what he was looking for.

      Harry Wright , UK (12.10.11)

      And according to another nut, Mustafa was a terrorist:

      Just remember – as we are lectured by your kind daily – What you call “justice” is our terrorism. If this fellow had been engaged in a truly peaceful protest – he may well still be alive. Bugger off yourself.
      Scott , Australia (12.10.11)

  25. Taxi says:

    R.I.P. Mustafa. Beautiful soul.

    You can be sure that billions of people will not shed a single tear when the twisted corpse of Apartheid israel is flung into the pits of hell.

  26. i just googled ‘israel’ (as i do frequently to check what news is trending) and this is the top story link to msnbc.msn.com

    Palestinian hit in face by tear gas canister dies
    ……
    Tamimi succumbed to his wounds at Beilinson Hospital in central Israel, said another pro-Palestinian activist from Israel, Jonathan Pollak.

    “The question is not whether the person is throwing stones or not throwing stones, the question is whether the army is allowed to use deadly force from within an armored vehicle,” Pollak said.

    B’Tselem spokeswoman Michaeli said she had personally filmed at least a dozen cases over the years of soldiers directly firing the projectiles at demonstrators, sometimes causing terrible injuries. She said the difference in this case was the very close range between the demonstrator and the soldier, who hit Tamimi in the face.

    A military spokeswoman said forces generally used canisters “to contain the violent and illegal riots that take place in Judea and Samaria,” the Biblical names for the West Bank. “Such means were used during the course of yesterday’s riot in Nabi Saleh.”

    Others who have been struck by tear gas canisters include Palestinian Bassem Abu Rahmeh, who was killed in 2009 when one hit his chest.

    They also include Tristan Anderson of Oakland, Calif., who is suffering from brain damage, paralysis and seizures after he was hit in the head by a canister at a 2009 demonstration.

    In the Gaza Strip on Saturday, hundreds of angry mourners marched in a funeral procession for a 12-year-old boy who was killed Friday along with his father in an Israeli strike

  27. Mooser says:

    You know, it would seem to me, who is no mayven when it comes to publicity and propaganda (if I was, would that fish-stealing raptor be our national animal?) that Zionists might have learned something from the Rachel Corrie episode.
    But they can’t help themselves, can they?

    • Citizen says:

      Mooser, I think what they learned from making a pancake out of Rachel Corrie (Did you ever see the video clip of her as a little kid stating her views on her mission in the world?) is that they can get away with it, same as USS Liberty. You know, those tragic “accidents?”

  28. this is a really beautiful photo of him with his parents and brothers. what a gorgeous family.

  29. DanMazella says:

    link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com
    Rocket fired from Lebanon that was supposed to target Israel falls short and injures Lebanese woman in Lebanon.
    Where is the outrage on here about this terrorist action?
    Ofcourse their is none.

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      This IS outrageous. They should test those rocket motors to make sure they don’t fail like that.

    • Mooser says:

      Dan, I too am outraged. Outraged that no-one will give the Palestinians the things they need to defend themselves from Israel.

      • eee says:

        Mooser,

        What do you mean, the Palestinians have you, isn’t that enough?
        And why aren’t you giving the Palestinians weapons? Who is stopping you?

        • @eee (all three of you)

          And why aren’t you giving the Palestinians weapons? Who is stopping you?

          Ha, ha, ha! Stop! You are killing me!

        • Citizen says:

          eee, nobody is stopping Mooser from giving weapons to the Palestinians so they can defend themselves–why he can type on MW anything he wants. BTW, have you had a gander at the new law passed by congress that kills US Constitutional due process for anyone who some government agent decides is in any way supporting anybody or group on official US terrorist shit list? Have you not noticed what happens to folks in USA who criticize Israel, even if they have much more power than a simple Moose? BTW, MW is not the NYT or Fox TV.

  30. eljay says:

    >> Rocket fired from Lebanon that was supposed to target Israel falls short and injures Lebanese woman in Lebanon.
    >> Where is the outrage on here about this terrorist action?

    Although this incident in no way justifies Israel’s 60+ years, ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder – including the murder discussed in this thread – I am outraged that a rocket fired from within Lebanon injured a Lebanese woman.

    • Citizen says:

      Does Lebanon get $3B direct aid from US annually, plus another $5B in myriad of agreements, and does US underwrite Lebanon’s debt, give Lebanon endless diplomatic cover?