Israeli settlers al-Shuhada street, Hebron (Photo:Hazem Bader/AFP/Getty)
Andrew Sullivan
I'm ecstatic about this new post by Andrew Sullivan. He's got a firm grip on the main artery of of Israel's relentless expansion and he's not backing down, he's doubling down, driving it home and not letting go. He clenches their argument by the throat, shakes it til the bones starts to rattle, and then strangles unmercifully. In this must-read 25-plus paragraph piece, he takes it all the way.
Let's pick up where we left off a few days ago Sullivan unmasks Goldberg:
I repeat: What would be a very good way to remove those settlements?
And now in his favorable review of Peter Beinart's book, the Crisis of Zionism, titled Why Continue To Build The Settlements? Sullivan continues to place the settlements center stage, where they belong. In his previous interrogation of Goldberg he didn't use Netanyahu's Goldberg's own analysis to make his points, this time he does several times over:
The answer is that the settlements are there because the current Israeli government has no intention of ever dividing the land between Arabs and Jews in a way that would give the Palestinians anything like their own state; and have every intention of holding Judea and Samaria for ever. Netanyahu is, as Beinart rightly calls him, a Monist. He is the son of his father, Ben Zion, as Jeffrey Goldberg has also insisted on. But what Peter does is spell out one side of the Netanyahu vision that Goldberg elides.
Vladimir Jabotinsky was a huge influence on Netanyahu's father and Netanyahu himself. He's a complicated figure, as Beinart readily concedes. For Jabotinsky, what it all came down to in the end was "the single ideal: a Jewish minority on both sides of the Jordan as a first step towards the establishment of the State, That is what we call 'monism'." My italics. The Revisionist Zionists (whence eventually Likud) envisaged a Jewish state that would not only include the West Bank but the East Bank as well, i.e. Jordan.
Ben Zion Netanyahu followed Jabotinsky's vision, and his willingness, even eagerness, to use violence to achieve it: "We should conquer any disputed territory in the land of Israel. Conquer and hold it, even if it brings us years of war ... You don't return land." Ben Zion Netanyahu even favored the "transfer" of Arabs living in Palestine to other Arab countries.In 2009, Netanyahu Sr, put his position this way to Maariv:
"The Jews and the Arabs are like two goats faing each other on a narrow bridge. One must jump into the river." "What does the Arab's jump mean?" asked the interviewer, trying to decipher the metaphor. Netanyahu explained: "That they won't be able to face the war with us, which will include withholding food from Arab cities, preventing education, terminating electrical power and more. They won't be able to exist and they will run away from here."
Suddenly, the situation in Gaza and much of the West Bank makes more sense, doesn't it? It's a conscious relentless assault on the lives of Palestinians to immiserate them to such an extent that they flee. And if you do not think that Bibi Netanyahu's father isn't easily the biggest influence on his life and worldview, read Jeffrey Goldberg. Money quote:
By all means do read the money quote. Sullivan's taking on the rotten core of Zionism using Netanyahu's dad to drive home the argument:
"withholding food.... preventing education, terminating electrical power ....They won't be able to exist".
Sounding very very ugly indeed.
So yes, it's a review of Beinart's book. But more importantly it's an evisceration of Israel's expansion policies, a further unmasking of Zionism, via Goldberg. The very same Goldberg who's assured us that he will be getting back to us very shortly on two fronts:
a) Netanyahu’s perspective on Israel striking Iran (off the table for now, as of this week) and
b) Having accused Sully of being a "scapegoater of Jews" and claiming he would disengage from the spat, Goldberg changed his mind (cornered) and promised readers he would provide them with: "the specific examples" of Sully's intransigence.
Goldberg is traveling, he hasn't written a stitch since then, nothing I've run across anyway. And since the war's off til next year, filling us in on Bibi's perspective of why an Iran strike would be successful is a moot point.
Sullivan is not on holiday though, we're very certain of that. He's got Goldberg boxed in.
The best part of all this is the placement of settlements on the front burner during an election cycle. Americans need to understand the ugliness of Israel's expansion policy, they need to fully grok how the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is happening every single day.
Phil has quipped in the past that this is a conversation Jews must have. For me, I am content watching Sully pound Goldberg. -N49.
yeah, i am so loving it. did you read sully’s post in total? one of the things i like about his presentation is he’s got these posts surrounded by ones around health care, the sexual revolution, a view from your window contest (would someone in gaza or the WB pleeeease send in an entry to that competition!!!), monkey parks, you name it. he’s all over the map and so is his audience which, from what i understand, is huge. does nayone know how to find out how many hits he gets? there must be some place to do that.
Yeah, Annie. I have been following Sully’s blog more and more. It is an amusing ride and great daily read. Love the way things are shaping up on I/P. Sullivan is pounding Goldberg and is now under his skin big time.
Thanks for the coverage and colour commentary.
I support Beinhart ’cause, even though he remains clueless in many regards, he moves the ball down the field. At the same time I support Atzmon ’cause, even though he is the equivalent of a stupid ten yard penalty, he speaks many truths.
Best -N49.
annie,
what better views from the windows, as well as from the street and from the shops and from the classrooms, are those taken by children; in the case below the pictures are taken by children from the ‘camps’ around Nablus who attend school at Teach for Palestin (teach-for-palestin.org):
link to teach-for-palestine.org
link to teach-for-palestine.org
link to teach-for-palestine.org
link to teach-for-palestine.org
link to teach-for-palestine.org
link to teach-for-palestine.org
Great post, Annie….tho hard to say “great” after reading his fathers words…and reflecting on present conditions.
I’m wondering how much the Zionist attack on gay communities has had on Sullivan’s intense focus on the settlments. Certainly settlements have ALWAYS been the main issue. But the gay community’s adoption of the Israel apartheid theme has caused friction – particularly here in Toronto where funding has been cut and laws passed(or considered)banning the use of the word “apartheid”is assocation with Israel.
Whatever the reason – well done Andrew Sullivan…
From N49: Phil has quipped in the past that this is a conversation Jews must have.
Like Annie, I would urge people to read Sullivan’s review of Beinart’s book. As Sullivan implies, the most probable plan of the present Israeli government is the immiseration and then total expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank – even though no Arab nation is likely to be willing to accept them.
Let us presume for the moment that this most probable outcome will be the actual outcome. Then what conversation will American Jews have, after the fact? Please try to imagine the political environment that will be developing in America simultaneously, while this ‘final solution’ to the Palestinian problem is being consummated.
Here is the question I would like to ask American Jews, earnestly and without malice: Do you think, in the deepest recesses of your souls, that this ghastly process can be executed without a very sharp rise in genuine anti-Semitism in the U.S.? And throughout the world?
I want to be clear about my meaning above in using the phrase “very sharp rise in genuine anti-Semitism.” I meant an unprecedented escalation in America of personally-felt hatred toward Jews, on a widespread basis.
So few Americans have any sophisticated grasp of the problems the Palestinians face. I don’t think most of them would even notice the Palestinians being driven out of the West Bank, especially if it were done slowly.
I agree Carowhat. You are most certainly correct in saying Americans wouldn’t even notice the Palestinians being driven out. You are too polite , however, by writing, “sophisticated’ grasp . Americans , the vast majority , basically do not care and whatever feelings shown is through the lens of the Israeli Hasbara machine and the ” Arab, Muslim,” equal terrorist campaign . And ,of course, no one wants to be accused of anti-semitism by objecting to any Israeli action.
Carowhat, I’m afraid I must agree with your “especially if it were done slowly”, as per the old boiling-frog analogy, and I’m also afraid that goes for many liberal American Jews, too.
the settlers are actual terrorists and once the world coalesces around that idea the focus shifts to their terror activities and how to stop them
Radii says it truly. If the settlers were forcibly resettled in the OPTs (and Golan) by the GOI — against their wills — it’d be one thing. But they go there willingly, go there in spite of long expressed international opinion and the often expressed opinion of the UNSC that the OPTs are subject to the Fourth Geneva Convention and that that Convention forbids the occupier to transfer its own population into the occupied territories (see UNSC 465 and ICJ July 9, 2004 advisory opinion on the Wall). Thus by merely being there they are willing instruments of illegality (Israel’s if not their own); and now — with “price tag” etc. — they have become actual terrorists, armed thugs oppressing another population. (Happened in Hebron long, long ago, a model of what was to come.)
Sullivan should directly ask not only “Why more settlements?” but also “Why is the international community so quiet on this long-developing tragedy/crime?”
RE: “And now in his favorable review of Peter Beinart’s book, the Crisis of Zionism, titled “Why Continue To Build The Settlements?” Sullivan continues to place the settlements center stage, where they belong.” ~ Annie Roberts
SEE: How Israel Is Like an Alcoholic Mother, by Noah Millman, The Atlantic, 3/22/12
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to theatlantic.com
P.S. ALSO SEE: Requiem for a Dream, 2000, UR, 102 minutes
A widow’s growing dependence on amphetamines and a self-help television show parallels the struggles of her heroin-addicted son and his girlfriend and friend in Darren Aronofsky’s bleak drama.
Cast: Ellen Burstyn, Jared Leto, Jennifer Connelly, Marlon Wayans, Christopher McDonald, Louise Lasser, Marcia Jean Kurtz, Janet Sarno, Keith David, Sean Gullette, Ben Shenkman
Director: Darren Aronofsky
Netflix Availability: DVD and Blu-ray
NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
REQUIEM FOR A DREAM TRAILER HD HQ – best scenes of a movie (VIDEO, 03:32) – link to youtube.com
P.S. Be certain to watch/listen to “The making of…” and the “Director’s Commentary” in the bonus/extra features. Aronofsky has some interesting things to say about addictions that I think might also apply to Zionism* (and many, many other things). Also, try to have Dolby/DTS 5.1 audio when watching the feature film. They make very good use of the side/rear channels. And Ellen Burstyn’s acting is absolutely brilliant!
* I see some parallels between Zionism and Sara Goldfarb’s (Ellen Burstyn’s) addiction to amphetamines and her obsession with the self-help television show – an infomercial hosted by self-help guru Tappy Tibbons (Christopher McDonald), based on the acronym JUICE (Join Us In Creating Excitement).
BUT THEN, WHAT DO I KNOW? I’m certainly no Stuart Smalley!
P.P.S. YOU GUESSED IT! AN EARLY SPRING AFTERNOON’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE, brought to you courtesy of the makers of new Ziocaine Xtreme®: It’s guaran-damn-teed to blow your effing mind!™
• Requiem For A Dream / Music composed by Clint Mansell, performed by the Kronos Quartet. / From the soundtrack for Darren Aronofsky’s second film. (VIDEO, 05:21) – link to youtube.com
dickerson, that excellent article is by Megan McArdle, not Noah Millman. she does however quote him at the beginning. i linked to this in my last sullivan article btw. (P.S. Things are getting a little out of control in his own backyard: gossip about Goldberg nurturing Israel like a son protecting his diseased alcoholic mother…heavens!) but it’s worth reading in its entirety.
In Tom Lehrer’s song, “But Oedipus LOVED his motherrrr”. Let us, therefore, not excuse the Goldbergs of this AIPAC-dominated world with the gentle remonstrance that they are merely honoring their [alcoholic] mother:
NO, they are also protecting something of their OWN.
They may be protecting their place in their own Zionist society, protecting their jobs, keeping Israel or future employers friendly with them, protecting their reputation for consistency, whatever * * * but they are clearly willing to sacrifice their reputation for honesty, decency, logic, politeness, honor, etc., in service of this ideology.
From pabelmont, this actionable phrase: … this AIPAC-dominated world ….
Thanks for that, Peter. Makes me feel less lonesome.
Thanks for thanks. I hoped by that phrase to point to AIPAC (or its equivalents) operating in UK, EU generally, perhaps more widely, whether by coercion of USA foreign policy or (as in Anglophone countries — UK, Canada, Australia) independently.
RE: “…that excellent article is by Megan McArdle, not Noah Millman.” ~ Annie Roberts
MY REPLY: “Oops” (VIDEO, 01:23), as Rick Perry might say!
P.S. On second thought, make that a ‘double dog’ oops!
Actually McArdle is on a sabbatical and has a roster of guest bloggers to fill in. So that post is by milman; mcardle is incapable of such reasoning or sticking her neck out like this.
thank you ahmed. i realize now i read it wrong.
Thanks Annie- great post & bravo to Sullivan. I hope as you say that the settlements can become part of the public discussion leading up to the fall 2012 election- Obama may want to avoid the subject but maybe Santorum as an opponent (Santorum who says the West Bank is already Israel- a One-Stater) would flush the issue out before the American public.
“He’s got a firm grip on the main artery of of Israel’s relentless expansion and he’s not backing down, he’s doubling down, driving it home and not letting go”
Good for Andy but it’s 40 years too late. Every non zionist looking at this for decades has recongized that Israel was and is carrying out a deliberate slow motion ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Now that Israel has taken 85% of Palestine they finally start saying something?
Totally meaningless in terms of stopping Israel. Maybe it makes some people feel better about themselves to condemn it after the fact. ..but that’s about all it does.
The millions of words and articles and endless Jewish ‘conversations’ and zionist naval studying can’t paper over the fact they supported this right up to the last minute.
Where were they all these years? Sorry, I’m not into forgiving or praising them — too little, too late.
All this back and forth crap between zionist anbd soc alled liberal zionist is just that —crap.
If any of the Sullivans were actually serious about ‘change” they would writting about and going after the Israel firsters in congress and elsewhere and exposing the Israel-US political corruption that keeps Israel I/P going. But they don’t do that do they? And we know why. Well, they made their choice. May they live to regret it.
it’s never too late american. we have to keep hammering it home til something transforms.
Every non zionist looking at this for decades has recongized that Israel was and is carrying out a deliberate slow motion ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
and what of the complicit americans who do not even know their complicity? do you know how many americans have no idea what’s really going on over there? it’s never too late.
If any of the Sullivans were actually serious about ‘change” they would writting about and going after the Israel firsters in congress and elsewhere and exposing the Israel-US political corruption that keeps Israel I/P going.
damn, he just called out goldberg (the gatekeeper of israel in the american media) as being a shill for netanyahu, a virtual mouthpiece for the israeli gov. that’s not nuthin.
annie, here what I see/ have seen.
“and what of the complicit americans who do not even know their complicity? do you know how many americans have no idea what’s really going on over there? it’s never too late.”
The Americans who don’t know of their complicity don’t know because they weren’t/ aren’t avid followers/supporters of Israel, don’t care about it one way or another and have been prevented by the msm from even knowing what Israel really does so they had no reason to pursue it. I would expect the pro Israel community and supporters, on the other hand, such as Sullivan and others to have been aware of this and out front long, long ago.
“damn, he just called out goldberg (the gatekeeper of israel in the american media) as being a shill for netanyahu, a virtual mouthpiece for the israeli gov. that’s not nuthin.”
Yea is it nothing or at least not much in the non Jewish conversation going on out here about Israel…I posted several links on here to FP experts like Brenner and others at Col Langs and the National Security Journal who some time ago called Goldberg a media mouthpiece and conduit for Netanyahu…it’s common knowledge.
Sullivan may be pushing it now, but he and the rest finally coming out, are way ”behind the curve” of what has already been said about Israel and it’s minions outside of their circle.
No one except MJ Rosenberg has used his pen to pen any attacks on the rotten core of US-Israel Lobby that is the real problem of I/P.
But let them natter on and fight their blog war of words on each other in the battle for the Jewish soul over Israel—-let me know when it results in a Jewish million man march on DC to protest US support of Israel which is the mainstay of I/P and keeps it going ,as it will down to the last square foot of what use to be Palestine.
May I live to have to eat my words, but I doubt it.
let me know when it results in a Jewish million man march on DC to protest US support of Israel which is the mainstay of I/P and keeps it going ,as it will down to the last square foot of what use to be Palestine.
and until then what? here’s the thing, sullivan is not col lang or the national security journal. his audience is much different than that. he’s very very mainstream.
i know they have no reason to pursue it or even care. that is EXACTLY the target audience we are aiming for, as i have argued repeatedly. this is also the lobby’s target audience, mainstream america. we have to engage them.
The link must be made (by the side that believes in justice) between insane American support for Israel and what is actually happening to the american middle class in real time .
link to ft.com
“First, the great American middle class is in long-term crisis. Most people cannot get secure, well-paid jobs any longer. The top 1 per cent captured 93 per cent of the income gains in 2010. The remaining 99 per cent were either treading water or seeing falling incomes. This includes those with an undergraduate or vocational degree, whose incomes have not budged in real terms since 2001. Only postgraduates and those with PhDs have seen income growth since then. Income mobility, once America’s greatest exception, is now wallowing at sub-European levels.
America now boasts of an unmatched plutocracy – or what one observer dubbed a “plutonomy”, given the growing role billionaires play in politics. Below them is an increasingly large floating world of the former and semi-middle class, who have lost the security their parents once had. Concern about a permanently divided America is not confined to the left, or the centre. Charles Murray, the conservative commentator, talks about a new “cognitive elite” that lives in “SuperZips” (the richest zip codes) far removed in sight and habit from those less fortunate. People on all sides of the spectrum admit that America’s egalitarian creed looks increasingly hollow. “America is a society that is starting to belie its promise as a land of equal opportunity in which the place you were born was not as important as the talents you were born with,” says Lawrence Katz.”
Israel is a complete waste of time
From American: The Americans … have been prevented by the msm from even knowing what Israel really does ….
While I agree, American, with the gist of your comments about the lateness of the hour and the despicable culpability of the Jewish and non-Jewish ‘communities’, I would like to add that for all those decades the Zionist movement had an iron-clad hold on the U.S. national and local media. Only with widespread access to and use of the Internet has it become possible for anti-Zionist, anti-Lobby voices to be heard in significant numbers.
This (together with the M&W book) is what has finally made it possible for non-Jewish critics like Sullivan to have some influence wrt Israel/Palestine. Even if the worst occurs and the Palestinians suffer a fate reminiscent of what the N@zis intended for the Jews, it will still be necessary to have a Truth Commission to try to recover some morality in the world.
Thomson
I think the general breakdown in authority/discipline/respect for institutions that have resulted from the post Lehman financial crisis is linked to this as well. So many institutions have been shown up for paper tigers run /run into the ground by know nothings and Israel is no different .
So, I’m in Tel Aviv now, and the city has never looked more young, vital, energetic, and wealthy. I don’t know what to compare it to? Sydney maybe? Wealthier even. I can tell with every word Annie writes she’s never been here, or she’d realize just how provincially American it is to talk about Andrew Sullivan!
I can tell with every word Annie writes she’s never been here
you’d be wrong.
What exactly is your point? Tel Aviv could not be “vital, energetic and wealthy” without America’s support. Sullivan speaks the truth. If that is “provincial”…so what?
That’s great Terry. We’re all very glad you were able to tell us how great Tel Aviv is. It’s ‘energy’ and ‘youth’ is something that we are concerned about first and foremost when discussing the Israel-Palestine conflict.
In fact! F**k the Palestinians, Tel Aviv is ‘energetic’! Why have we wasted all our time on unattractive and ‘un-hot’ things like international law and human rights!
Thanks Terry. You are a treasure. How many languages did you speak again? I am truly in awe of your wondiferous insight!
terry doesn’t mention the fact 30 minutes away in jerusalem (or is it 40 i can’t recall)there’s a battle going on over women in the back of the bus, photos of women are not even allowed in public, no billboards or nuthin, some guy just tried enforcing a draconian fatwa on some music thingamagig and got arrested and there are neighborhoods where men and women walk on different sides of the streets. so he talks about how modern tel aviv is. so what?
I don’t doubt you’ve been to Jerusalem and that you’ve been on the “tour.” But Tel Aviv? Nah. If you’d walked the boulevards, and ridden the busses I’d know.
But Annie, West Jerusalem is cool. It has a gay pride parade.
And marketing gay pride is much more important than Orthodox women’s rights, right ?
It’s a PR mitzvah. Probably.
Terryscott: “… and ridden the busses I’d know.”
Who cares about busses Tel? What about the Irish bars? Even the smallest city with any pretence of international status must boast three as a minimum, though I would say it takes at least half a dozen to be considered truly world-class.
Lotta irony here. perhaps TERRY was being ironic, although why, here, I cannot guess.
If he was not being ironic, then he was being rather indirect. Maybe he just meant to say, whether or not from a Zionist perspective, that Israel will WIN, the settlements will continue, it’s a DONE DEAL, and nothing any American says about it will change that.
BTW, Terry, wasn’t Berlin a sort of “hot spot” before, say, 1944?
Lotta irony here.
Looks like a threadjack to me.
To get back on topic, the settlements are a no-brainer, as a boycott of Israel (not just settlement products) should be – if only for its occupation and settlement policies. On my way to our local Land Day/GMJ rally near the Israeli embassy, I saw some posters (admittedly sponsored by right-wing creeps with an ulterior motive) that stated simply: “Free Tibet. Boycott Made in China”. They didn’t say “Boycott Chinese products made in Tibet” or “Free Tibet. Invest in the rest of China”.
I’ll point out that “Terryscott” has named himself after a long dead British comedian…could explain a few things.
@ Schmuel,
Q: Looks like a threadjack to me.
R: My thoughts, exactly.
“perhaps TERRY was being ironic,”
I bet he is. Too dumb for words if he isn’t. I mean..that would be like the guy who used to comment here, forgot his handle. “why do you always attack Israel? Come and see how beautiful the beaches are! And Israeli women! They’re beautiful, you’d like them!”.
That kind of thing..
the settlements are a no-brainer
See today’s unsigned editorial in Haaretz: link to haaretz.com
Is it being too provincial to ask why are Israeli citizens, with or without US citizenship, making US policy towards Israel and the Middle East? Do citizens of China, with or without US citizenship, set US policy towards China and Asia? Americans surely have the right to have US foreign policy set for and by the US and not used as just another tool of foreign governments and their US based agents.
ps, i’ve been to sydney also, there is absolutely no comparison. sydney is a world class international destination, another league altogether.
So tell me some of the things you liked about Tel Aviv during your visit?
my companions brother designed the new wing of the art museum and we got a tour of it by the museum director while it was still under construction. that was shockingly amazing. other than that the people we met. i met dalit baum and rebecca vilkomerson there at rabin square, very cool. actually i had met dalit days before in southern israel. so i would have to say the people and the tel aviv art museum. there are lots of wonderful people in israel.
oh, and we took the bus to the museum. a stunning display of impressionist art there (i think it was their permanent collection) an then downstairs there was some very current startling art. it’s been 2 1/2 years so the details are fuzzy. during the trip we did the very first ahava action ever, at the sheraton in tel aviv, i have written about that previously here. you’re just wrong that’s all.
I was impressed by the cheap vodka, the absence of Palestinians, the religiousness of the taxi drivers I met and the shoddiness of the architecture.
the religiousness of the taxi drivers
i noticed that!
I apologize. You were in Tel Aviv, it made no impression on you.
Why were you taking taxis?
you’re threadjacking and i am helping you. one last answer, we took one w/our luggage to the airport and another time a bunch of us crammed into one to get back to the hostel. both times were queried the driver. end of tel aviv non related gossip.
Annie, ignoring Shmuel’s warning above you are enabling this troll to hijack the thread. You need to be more vigilant and discriminating about such things. MW should not be regarded as a chat-board, especially not for trolls.
Edit P.S. – Just saw your last comment above so please regard this as a caution only.
thomson, you might notice the timestamps. i didn’t ignore shmuel, once i saw his comment i ended the exchange. thanks for looking out for us tho. ;)
Annie, I acknowledged your 4:19 pm comment in my “edit p.s.” above and indicated that I had not seen it when I composed my 5:59 comment, but I sent that comment anyway because I felt you needed a mild ‘rebuke’. And now I want to close by wishing you also a happy and glorious :) – -. Keep up the good work!
rebuke away anytime thomson, i’ll try my best.
thanks
Tel
Take a sherut to South Tel Aviv and count the number of Prada boutiques.
Sheruts are for inter-city travel. Still waiting for your latest investment advice, seafood. I made a killing buying Euros and shorting Israeli stocks . . .
Tel
Israel’s meltdown is like good bordeaux. It’s all about patience.
Stay here and we can watch it together.
South Tel Aviv isn’t rich. Most of Israel isn’t.
link to ft.com
“Adi Peled, a 30-year-old activist from Ness Ziona, moved to Rothschild Boulevard three days after the first tents went up. She now lives in tent number 13 and occasionally helps out at the communal food stall, which is constantly replenished by donations from supportive restaurant owners.
“I am a teacher but with my salary I cannot even finish the month without going into debt,” she says. “My friends and I have been talking about this for years. The system is not working for us. It is not just about housing but also about taxes, which are very high; it is about gasoline, which is very expensive and about the cost of food.”
Ms Peled’s complaints are echoed up and down the boulevard. “Our parents and grandparents used to live in a welfare state. They have pensions, they have everything. But they have crushed the welfare state,” says Yaniv Sharon, a 36-year-old protester. “People are now saying that they cannot even afford to bring a child into the world.””
But never mind, eh? At least the settlers have everything they want. And that’s a mitzvah.
Israel’s meltdown is like good bordeaux. It’s all about patience.
Stay here and we can watch it together.
okay, that made me laugh.
“Sydney maybe?”
Brilliant. How lucky we are at Mondoweiss to have our very own peripatetic paddy, Tel Aviv Tel, with his droll travelog. Finally a humorous hasbarist, even if it’s taken an Irishman. Whilst he’s in town, let’s hope Tel pops into Hasbara Central and gives a few tips on how to sweeten the bullshit with a bit of blarney.
That said, not even the Israelis can touch his Irish chutzpah. A couple of cheap flights on Ryanair and he’s a man of the world, patronising the provincial Americans like the worst kind of English snob. Though poor old Tel gives the game away with his vulgar obsession with glitzy wealth.
Terryscott: while you are living the good life in Tel Aviv, just remember that it is built on a dung heap of immorality, treachery, evil, and violence much like the life of the kommendant of Auschwitz whose home with wife and kiddies was right outside the wall. You are taunting in your comment indicating that the citizens if Israel comparmentalize their morality and ethics as applied to their tribe and a more onerous set of morality for the Palestinians. God forbid that your hasbara does not lose its effectiveness when the Truth is finally known, especially here in the U.S,
You’d be wrong Terry. Australia has a GDP per capita of around $60,000 while Israel has a GDP per capita of around $30,000. Go look at the IMF, World Bank and CIA Factbook data – Australia is around number 6 in the world, Israel is somewhere in the low 20s. So Israelis are half as wealthy as Australians.
And Sydney, Melbourne and other Australian cities do consistently well in quality of life indices. Don’t see Tel Aviv there, mate.
Tel Aviv = Sun City. The city of apartheid!
So wealthy that it wants aid from the US to increase. So wealthy that it stil streal natural resources from the Palestinians, imports cheap labor, and is entirely dependent on foreign donations.
Not even close. Is the median house price there over half a million $US? Top prices beyond 40 million? Get a grip.
And unlike Tel Aviv, Sydney is not an apartheid city in an apartheid state. It’s multicultural, completely secular and citizenship is open to all nationalities. Unlike Tel Aviv, Sydney siders are ashamed of racism and have said sorry to they naties of the land and pay reperations. Not enough IMO, but Tel Aviv is not even on the radar.
As someone who has been there, I can say that Annie and Sully are on the mark. If Annie is provincial, then you’re inbred.
side note:
Q: Sydney is not an apartheid city in an apartheid state.
R: How may Aboriginals do you think will disagree with your assertion?
yes because that erases all the crimes that were committed to create it.
I’m sure Germans described Dresden before the bombing exactly like you described Tel Aviv. I’m not surprised the ‘Zionaakers” (my take on Afrikaaners) are living in a bubble of total delusion, numb to the suffering of the prisoners in their gulag operation next door. Lemme tell you something: your post is RIFE with apathy and arrogance, is contemptible beyond belief given the context and is pure stinky vomit.
May I suggest “Ziokaaners”? (This not to be confused with Ziocane).
Definitely! Ziokaaners sounds perfect.
Once again…thanks, Annie.
…2nd to last paragraph…”…threatens to eclipse Israeli democracy, corrupt Jewish ethics…”
and I found myself thinking, relative to Phil’s post about Noah Pollak and Rachel Abrams…threatens to…corrupt? For these 2 at least, way past threatening.
agreed don. here’s the passage:
maybe we should write sullivan and tell him there is no israeli democracy.
A variation on the “alcoholic”metaphor is: one doesn’t allow their best friends to drive drunk (for fear of self destruction). And tragically those who are the true believers and their well funded and highly organized enablers (viz. AIPAC) are fueling this inherently evil enterprise which is heroic for the Zionist but on the backs and eventual destruction of the Palestinians (“rocks in the road–Ben Guerion; …”if they stay, they can live like dogs”-M. Dayan; “a Palestinian is a beast who walks on two legs”-Golda Meir”..
Lest we forget Obama, he of the Cairo speech fame who denounced the settlements as a barrier to peace, now is committing our Nation’s economic health in serious jeapordy by threatening to conduct no trade with other nations who buy oil from the nuclear superpower, Iran. These nations include China and India. He has capitulated to the Zionist cabals and continued the downward slope of our national foreign policy and economic interest for the benefit of a pariah state engaged in murderous policies toward the Palestinians, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid, policies that our Founding Farthers would react to with horror.
Rensanceman, like it.
If you don’t drive drunk, why do you keeping buying drinks for AIPAC?
israeli settlements on the west bank? but isn’t all of occupied palestine one huge settlement?
I saw and briefly chatted with Beinart at a promo event for his book this past Monday, and I just finished reading it yesterday. Both were two of the most frustrating experiences I’ve had so far this year (although, like you, I think you gotta appreciate the fact that the mainstream discourse is shifting). I plan on writing a review that will be from a decidedly different angle than Sullivan’s, that’s for sure!
i look forward to reading it austin. ali abunimah just wrote a very amusing review of the book today, in tweets .
Annie
Very interesting clip from the Israeli version of the reality show Big Brother – it might be worth its own thread
Saar Szekely spells out what the occupation is :
link to eranvered.com
thanks seafoid, yes we know about that clip. we can’t seem to upload it which is one of the problems but you’re right, it does deserve a thread.
RE: “And now in his favorable review of Peter Beinart’s book, the Crisis of Zionism, titled ‘Why Continue To Build The Settlements?’* Sullivan continues to place the settlements center stage, where they belong.” ~ Annie Roberts
AN EARLY SPRING EVENING’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE, brought to you courtesy of the makers of new Ziocaine Xtreme®: It’s guaran-damn-teed to knock you on your butt!™
*“The writing’s on the wall. It won’t go away. It’s an omen!”
• The Prodigy, “Omen” (VIDEO, 03:19) – link to youtube.com!
Jabotinsky’s vision of a Jewish State on both sides of the Jordan river?
That wasn’t Jabo’s vision. The original Mandate of Palestine did include both sides of the river and all the way to Iraq.
History is not Sullivan’s strong suit.
How many times do you trolls need to be corrected about this crap? The British mandate is not the Mandate of Palestine Trasnjordan was added 2 yeas after San Remo and explicitly cited as a sperate protectorate.
The mandate document formalised the creation of two distinct British protectorates – Palestine, as a national home for the Jewish people under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family.[1]
link to en.wikipedia.org
Neither is that outdated Hasrba spandex jump suit you’re in.
The arbitrary creation by Britain of an Arab Emirate of Transjordan required a previously nonexisting legal framework to be concocted in order to allow this new entity to be formally recognized. Colonel Meinertzhagen noted this in his diary on June 21, 1921. “The Colonial Office and the Palestine Administration have now declared that the articles of the mandate relating to the Jewish Home are not applicable to Transjordan and that the severance of Transjordan from Palestine is in accordance with the terms of the McMahon pledge. This discovery was not made until it became necessary to appease an Arab Emir…
Balfour submitted the first draft of the Palestine Mandate to the Council of the League of Nations on December 6, 1920. There was nothing in that document that would provide the basis for distinguishing Trans-Jordan from the rest of Palestine. Of course, this was before Abdullah’s appearance on the scene in the territory and Churchill’s decision to strike a bargain with him. To deal with the new political reality, a revised draft of the mandate was released in August 1921, which incorporated the change in British policy. In this revised final draft of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, a device was included that provided the “after the fact” basis for Britain’s separation of Trans-Jordan from Palestine. On July 24, 1922, the League of Nations approved the terms of the British mandate covering Palestine and Transjordan.
Notwithstanding the new version of the mandate, the Zionist leaders at the time were unwilling to consider the exclusion of Trans-Jordan from the Jewish homeland as an accomplished fact. They viewed it as a clear and cynical betrayal of commitments made to them by Britain in collusion with the major powers, and something they could not accept without a struggle. There was a sense that the effect of the partition could be undone by creating facts on the ground that negated it. Thus, at the Twelfth Zionist Congress held that same year, Weizmann stated, while discussing the question of Palestine’s eastern frontier: “The question will be still better answered when Cisjordania is so full of Jews that a way is forced into Transjordania.
you guys will just not give up on this fiction. hostage has pulverized your argument time and again. maybe if i’m of a mind to i will go find the conversation from the last time, or the time before. you must no the history will not change if you keep repeating your fictitious version of events.
it was arbitrary to split to pieces of land that for the entirity of human history had never been considered the same piece of land into their respective parts?
ans that you and the rest of the zionists feel your entitled to land that was not nor ever controlled by jews says that it wasn’t so much about a return to palastine (I refuse to use the ahistorical and quite frankly insulting term Eretz Israel) as grabbing as much land as possible.
Transjordan had been included by the Lesgue of Nations in the territory of Palestine which the League was offering Britain as a Mandate–A Peace to End All Peace, David Fromkin, pg. 505.
So you are saying your intent is not only to ethnically cleanse and Judiaze the West Bank, but also Jordan as well?
Just announcing that project is going to make you a lot of friends.
Irrelevant. the League of Nations exempted Transjordan from the terms of the Palestine Mandate, not Great Britain. The League was acting in accordance with the terms of a Memorandum that was annexed to the Council resolution that approved the joint “A” mandates for Palestine and Transjordan.
link to archive.org
According to the terms of the San Remo resolution, Palestine was to have whatever boundaries the Allied Powers chose to confer upon it and none of the draft mandate instruments were valid until they were submitted to the Council of the League of Nations for approval.
link to cfr.org
“The mandates under which the various territories have been administered were submitted by the mandatory governments to the Council of the League of Nations in accordance with paragraph 8 of article 22. The terms were reviewed by the Council, in some cases revised on its recommendation, and finally approved by it. The following table gives the pertinent data for each territory:
“A” Mandates
*Palestine
*Trans-Jordan
*Syria and Lebanon’
link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu
So Transjordan was always governed as a separate state under the terms of a separate international instrument. The fact that it was a separate foreign state for the purposes of article 15 of the Palestine Citizenship Order and the Palestine mandate was affirmed by the High Court of Justice of Palestine. See Hersh Lauterpacht (editor), “States as international persons”, in “International Law Reports”, Cambridge University Press, 1994, page 17
Judaize.
“Transjordan had been included by the League of Nations in the territory of Palestine which the League was offering Britain as a Mandate–A Peace to End All Peace, David Fromkin, pg. 505. ”
My point is that Jabotinsky was not alone in visioning Palestine as straddling both sides of the Jordan river. The League of Nations originally thought the same thing and it seems that Mr. Sullivan wasn’t aware of that.
Rubbish. The League of Nations only amended the Mandate for Palestine 2 years after the San Remo Conference via the 16 September 1922 Transjordan memorandum.
The mandate document formalised the creation of two distinct British protectorates – Palestine, as a national home for the Jewish people under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family.
So the League on Nations was perfectly clear about the fact Palestine and Transjirdan were 2 different entities.
What nut jobs like Jabotinsky was “visioning” at the time had nothing to do with reality.
it seems that Mr. Sullivan wasn’t aware of that.
oh please, spare us. it’s completely irrelevant. so what if sullivan ‘seems’ not to be aware of your illusionary obsession. it’s completely irrelevant to the topic and the thread and i can’t believe you’re still yammering on about what could have been if only reality wasn’t what it was.
we’ve all been around the block a few times pz. we know you and your cohorts love inserting your talking pts about your alleged dreamland of yesterday and how you allegedly got swindled unfairly. move on.
shingo, lots of these fruitcakes are still ‘visioning’ this crap and their ilk will be ‘visioning’ it forever and ever and ever. they invade so many threads with this nonsense. check out this hysterical video. an example of the kind of fruitcake i’m talking about:
link to mondoweiss.net
the guy in this video/ pz’s alter ego.
“Transjordan had been included by the League of Nations in the territory of Palestine which the League was offering Britain as a Mandate–A Peace to End All Peace, David Fromkin, pg. 505. ”
Annie. Shingo. What part of the sentence don’t you understand?
Annie. Your need to project truly baffles me.
I’ve never said that the Zionists were swindled. I know that Great Britain swindled the local Arabs as well as the Zionists and swindled France, the Arab States and the Ottomans as well.
And BTW Annie. I don’t dream of land. I dream of peace.
pz, what part of the word ‘exempted’ don’t you understand?
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
more at links
According to the H.M.G.’s de Bunsen Committee, (1915), the Ayelet (province) of Palestine covered the whole territory from the Mediterranean in the west, to deep into the Syrian Desert in the east. Freedman, Isaiah, “British Pan-Arab Policy 1915-1922: A Critical Appraisal” (2009 by Transaction Publishers, Pg. 316.
Pudnazi,
I would suggest that you’ve misread Freedman or Freedman misread de Bunsen, because there never was an Ayelet of Palestine in the Ottoman Empire.
Friedman’s book is on Google books. He’s ninety one years old so you can tell him yourself.
“Neither is that outdated Hasrba spandex jump suit you’re in.”
I’m really appreciating the one liners, this morning.
Pudzaniest, you are the original mandate of Palestine.
Really funny.
Have a great holiday.
Thanks Annie for the heads up. It’s a good review but what it ignores is that the same criticisms that can be made for the occupation since 1967 are the same criticisms that can be made for the occupation of Palestine since 1948. The tactics employed post-1967 are just a slower version of what happened inside the Green Line. Palestinian dispossession didn’t suddenly start in 1967.
agreed Inanna. he does reference ’60 years’ but not in a helpful context.
BB: “… withholding food…. preventing education, terminating electrical power ….They won’t be able to exist”.
DR: “Like in an old-fashioned ghetto?”
BB: “Something like that. Oh, and we should give it a name that reflects our past struggle and vision for the future…”
DR: “How about ….war…. and…. saw… Warsaw Ghetto?”
Death by a thousand expulsions and executions. How does someone suppress his/her moral gag-reflexes after or while reading these articles?
Exactly. Someone like Netanyahoo is a Jewish Nazi. Plain and simple.
Being reminded of Passover, let me say this about the question of massive Israeli military power, etc., permanent enslavement (and exclusion) of our people, the Palestinians, within and from the land of Palestine:
Even mighty Pharaoh had to let one enslaved people go — at least according to Jewish mythology — and it could happen again. There are signs of a succession of (slow-moving) plagues already. Settler pogroms, relentless lawlessness by the state, possible (further) unjustified warfare (against Iran, Gaza, Lebanon), threats against Turkey (a NATO ally of the USA) w.r.t. gas-drilling in Med, etc.
NB: I am a human being as are all the readers of this blog. Hence “our people” above. However, as a point of display of bias, I regard myself as a Palestinian ()by marriage).
So, Tel Aviv is so beautiful, so what? what good is a beautiful city when you have no Peace.
Is there a chance that those two can make peace?
Jerusamel according to wiki says this ‘dwelling of peace’, ‘founded in safety’
Semitic/Hebrew for ‘to lay a cornerstone’, yielding the idea of laying a cornerstone to the temple of the god Shalem, who was a member of the West Semitic pantheon
In Arabic, Jerusalem is most commonly known as al-Quds and meaning “The Holy” or “The Holy Sanctuary”.
Netanyahu thinks ‘Amalek’
_____________________
An op-ed piece in the International Herald Tribune, May 18, 2009 by Jeffrey Goldberg said this about Netanyahu:
“I recently asked one of his advisers to gauge for me the depth of Netanyahu’s anxiety about Iran. His answer: ‘Think Amalek’ ”
Obviously the Netanyahu family doesn’t just ‘think Amalek’ about the Iraniens, they ‘think Amalek’ about the Palestiniens too: “blot them out from the face of the earth” (Book of Exodus).
The persecution memes go real deep
link to judaicawebstore.com
Zionism was supposed to be about escaping from the shtetl….
Thanks a lot for the link to the web store. I just ordered an XL T-shirt of ‘The Jewish People Vs the Empires’. It’ll be great history to wear in Germany this summer.
Julius Streicher’s last words were “Heil Hitler! this is the Purim festival of 1946″.
What a bastard.
He was cremated and his ashes were scattered into a ditch in Bayern and his name was entered in the records as Abraham Goldberg.
(After the Reich, P 450)
Nice:
“The Jewish People
The smallest of nations
but with a Friend
in the highest of places!
SO … BE NICE!”
Bow down before the Jewish people or:
I will tell my big brother that you are not nice!!!
Everybody has an uncle in America…
But Israel has Obama – Uncle Sam/Tom (the president of the universe).
SO … BE VERY AFRAID!
seafoid the Russians did even a better one on Hitlers remains. They flushed him down the toilet and if any disciples wish to visit his last known resting place they will have to have their ceremony at the Biederitz sewage treatment plant on the Elbe River.
I thought they meant G-d
but He seems to be very capricious
I was thinking of buying this book and comparing the teachings of a genuine legend and Jewish superstar to the miserable small minded bigotry and wanton cruelty of the world’s only Jewish state.
link to judaicawebstore.com
“I thought they meant G-d but He seems to be very capricious”
Don’t think I haven’t mentioned it to Him, and told him point-blank that people deserve a bit more consistency. I’m sorry to tell you, He just laughed. I lost my temper tried to slap Him, but he neatly evaded the blow and skipped lightly to another cloud. I think I got thru to him, tho. He’s sure been avoiding me since then.
- A note on the picture above. -
The Stars of David sprayed on (probably) Palestinian shops look to me like the Swastikas painted on Jewish shops in Germany after Hitler came to power.
gee, ya think? i suppose it is an improvement over ‘death to arabs’.
It’s not only Netanyahu’s father Benzion but also his brother Yonatan who had a decisive influence on Benjamin. (Yonatan was killed in the 1976 raid on the Entebbe airport to free Israeli captives .) Goldberg writes that one lesson Benjamin took from his brother’s death was:
“[D]estiny has chosen the Netanyahus to expose and battle anti-Semitism – before it reaches the point of genocide.”
Who is ‘destiny’ – that chose the Netanyahus? The answer is obvious considering that Netanyahu frames all issues in Biblical terms.
Goldberg writes that one lesson Benjamin took from his brother’s death was:
we linked to some of that stuff here: link to mondoweiss.net
and silverstein really takes him to task for his slobbering use of yonathan in ’09: Jeffrey Goldberg, Willing Tool of Israel’s Perception Management Campaign for Iran War:
link to richardsilverstein.com
goldberg’s been humping yonatan for years.
“The Stars of David sprayed on (probably) Palestinian shops look to me like the Swastikas painted on Jewish shops in Germany after Hitler came to power.”
Same poison, different box.
““The Stars of David sprayed on (probably) Palestinian shops look to me like the Swastikas painted on Jewish shops in Germany after Hitler came to power.”
So what do you think that’s worth, Klaus? 15% absolution? Maybe 35%? Maybe we could just say the two cancel each other out, but the Nazis had better uniforms?
“My point is that Jabotinsky was not alone in visioning Palestine as straddling both sides of the Jordan river. The League of Nations originally thought the same thing and it seems that Mr. Sullivan wasn’t aware of that.”
Mr. Sullivan is also unaware that piotr is the rightful heir to the Chinese Empire and that he should kowtow before me. I am waiting, Mr. Sullivan! OTOH it is not particularly germane to the issue of settlements.
If I recall, San Remo Conference and Balfour declaration did not amount to laws or treaties. Mandates in the Middle East stemmed from the peace treaty with Turkey which included some boillerplate about preserving the rights of the current inhabitants. So nothing indicates that Palestinian property rights are null and void.
British bestowed on South African parliament full rights dispose of affairs of South Africa, and thus Apartheid had a very solid legal basis. No ifs and buts and stretched interpretations. Which did not make Apartheid a right thing. Comparatively, dispossession of Palestinians has a feeble legal basis, and like Apartheid, it is not a right thing.
Most significantly in American context, Americans usually view individual property rights as important and do not share Israeli attitude that State has priority over individuals as far as property is concerned. I read that there were opinion polls showing that if you ask Americans if removing Palestinians from their villages to expand settlements is correct, big majority of both Democrats and Republicans would say no. If you ask if America should support Israel, majority says yes. Thus it is very important to ask the first question in public and often. Americans do not want Israel to fall victim to ghuls, jinns, Ahmedinejads and whatever dangers there may be. But Americans do not support settlements.
- “Americans usually view individual property rights as important and do not share Israeli attitude that State has priority over individuals as far as property is concerned.” -
Yes, but the point in Palestine is: Palestinien worldly property rights vs Jewish metaphysical ones (‘The land of our Biblical forefathers’).
The first people I met who were decidedly anti-Zionist were Libertarians I met in the US. They are property rights people. And among them were a number of Jews (or of Jewish descent), most prominently Murray Rothbard.
John Marshall and the U.S. Supreme Court held the European settlers’ rights to land superseded the rights of the American Indians in Johnson v. M’Intosh, 21 U.S. 543 (1823):
Interesting and at the same time an obvious thought, yourstruly.
- “It’s a conscious relentless assault on the lives of Palestinians to immiserate them to such an extent that they flee.” – Andrew Sullivan
That’s exactly what Hitler was up to when he took power: make the lives of the Jews in Germany so miserable that they emigrate and make Germany ‘Jew-free’.
Of the 500 000 Jews that lived in Germany in 1933 — by 1939 only 210 000 were left. At that stage nobody envisioned a genocide. It took WW II to kill the Jews (mainly Polish and Russian, Jews that had nothing to do with Germany.) — The parallel ends here.
It is so hard for me to hear these comparisons. I don’t reject them them…because they are not exact duplications….but the similarities make me ashamed for my people…the ones who try to justify and rationalize away.
Don’t worry too much CigarGod. — The similarities are there but limited. If Germany had treated the Jews in the occupied countries the way the Israeli army treats the Palestiniens in the occupied territories, most Jews would still be alive. But the Nazis/SS aren’t the benchmark.
What you have to worry about is why the whole world is sick and tired of the Palestinian conflict and primarily blames Israel. This can’t be attributed to some anti-Semitism of the world’s gentiles.
“But the Nazis/SS aren’t the benchmark.”
So why do you constantly bring it up?
Andrew Sullivan has been digging in deep. Chris Matthews has him on often. Hope Sullivan opens up on Hardball about illegal settlements
To think that one US President after the next has said the settlements are illegal and an obstacle to peace and nothing has changed. Not a thing.
Phil, Adam, Annie you really need to get rid of the “show content” undermining. No flow to the conversations…links etc
kathleen, look to the left at the bottom of the ‘toggle’ where it says ‘show all comments’. click on it.
Have never seen a “show content” strategy at any political blog. Really not a good idea Alec. Not going to work. Seriously. Going to run folks off. Is that the intention?