In new leaked tapes, Romney rejects two-state solution – ‘The idea of pushing on the Israelis to give something up to get the Palestinians to act is the worst idea in the world’

Day two of leaked video from a May, 2012 Romney fundraiser in Boca Raton is focused on foreign policy, and specifically Israel/Palestine. In the new tape Romney rejects the two-state solution using a familiar Israeli security argument (he didn’t quite go as far as using “Auschwitz borders”) and blamed the Palestinians for “not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel.”

Here are the full remarks from Mother Jones:

I’m torn by two perspectives in this regard. One is the one which I’ve had for some time, which is that the Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish. Now why do I say that? Some might say, well, let’s let the Palestinians have the West Bank, and have security, and set up a separate nation for the Palestinians. And then come a couple of thorny questions. And I don’t have a map here to look at the geography, but the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv, which is the financial capital, the industrial capital of Israel, the center of Israel. It’s—what the border would be? Maybe seven miles from Tel Aviv to what would be the West Bank…The other side of the West Bank, the other side of what would be this new Palestinian state would either be Syria at one point, or Jordan. And of course the Iranians would want to do through the West Bank exactly what they did through Lebanon, what they did near Gaza. Which is that the Iranians would want to bring missiles and armament into the West Bank and potentially threaten Israel. So Israel of course would have to say, “That can’t happen. We’ve got to keep the Iranians from bringing weaponry into the West Bank.” Well, that means that—who? The Israelis are going to patrol the border between Jordan, Syria, and this new Palestinian nation? Well, the Palestinians would say, “Uh, no way! We’re an independent country. You can’t, you know, guard our border with other Arab nations.” And now how about the airport? How about flying into this Palestinian nation? Are we gonna allow military aircraft to come in and weaponry to come in? And if not, who’s going to keep it from coming in? Well, the Israelis. Well, the Palestinians are gonna say, “We’re not an independent nation if Israel is able to come in and tell us what can land in our airport.” These are problems—these are very hard to solve, all right? And I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say, “There’s just no way.” And so what you do is you say, “You move things along the best way you can.” You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize that this is going to remain an unsolved problem. We live with that in China and Taiwan. All right, we have a potentially volatile situation but we sort of live with it, and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it. We don’t go to war to try and resolve it imminently. On the other hand, I got a call from a former secretary of state. I won’t mention which one it was, but this individual said to me, you know, I think there’s a prospect for a settlement between the Palestinians and the Israelis after the Palestinian elections. I said, “Really?” And, you know, his answer was, “Yes, I think there’s some prospect.” And I didn’t delve into it.

After saying all that, Romney emphasized that he was against applying any pressure on Israel: “The idea of pushing on the Israelis to give something up to get the Palestinians to act is the worst idea in the world.”

One takeaway from Mitt Romney’s comments on Israel/Palestine is that they expose the candidate’s ignorance of the issue, as the Christian Science Monitor’s Dan Murphy points out. For instance, Romney says that “the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv.” This is clearly geographically wrong.

But on the other hand, they’re quite refreshing. Romney bragged at the same fundraiser that his campaign features aides that have worked for Benjamin Netanayahu, and yesterday Phil notioned that this is most likely referring to Arthur Finkelstein. With Finklestein and Sheldon Adelson backing Romney, it’s no surprise he rejects the two-state solution. Still, it’s rather shocking to hear a candidate for president of the United States make the case for maintaining Greater Israel until “ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it.” Romney has come out against a two-state solution and endorses what Noam Sheizaf calls Israel’s “status quo” choice. This tape should put that status quo under the microscope.

Mother Jones’ David Corn correctly notes that Romney’s remarks demonstrate that “he is out of sync with the predominant view in foreign policy circles that has existed for decades.” That’s true, but that’s also a good thing to have in 2012–it sharpens the debate and makes it clearer. It won’t happen during the campaign, but as Romney’s view begins to be expressed within the mainstream of the Republican Party (and it likely will), perhaps Americans can be treated to a debate about whether apartheid or equal rights is better for Israel/Palestine.

Romney wants to throw the two-state solution in the trash because “Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace.” He wants to keep the situation as is. But the situation as it is right now is one of apartheid.

It’s somewhat ironic that these leaked tapes have come out by way of James Carter IV, Jimmy Carter’s grandson. In the ex-president’s 2009 book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid, Carter drew a stark choice for the way forward in Israel/Palestine. Looks like Romney has made his.

About Alex Kane and Adam Horowitz

Alex Kane is an assistant editor for Mondoweiss and the World editor for AlterNet. Follow him on Twitter @alexbkane.
Posted in Israel/Palestine, US Policy in the Middle East, US Politics

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  1. seafoid says:

    Romney’s position on Israel is consistent with the Republican position on reality.

    • kalithea says:

      I hope you’re not naive enough to believe that Democrats have a different position on Israel? The Democrats position is: Wherever the Republicans left the can; we’ll kick it down the road from there; only we’ll do a better job of PRETENDING we’re doing something.

      • Kris says:

        You’re right, the Democrats have exactly the same position as the Republicans, but like to pretend that they care about human rights for the Palestinians. (Just as they like to pretend to care about protecting unions, Social Security, Medicare, the environment, human rights, etc., etc.)

        Check this out: “Why We Should Welcome Mitt Romney’s Middle East Straight Talk,” here: link to electronicintifada.net

        • HemiFaulk says:

          Excellent points. If you know that and others know that, what happened to Romney’s campaign, you know like use these facts as attack points to show a sitting President who has done next to nothing in four years. Nothing changed, then again it got worse especially the last two years, and no I don’t look at the DOW as indicative of the American economy. The DOW and broader markets have risen because the same banks that screwed it all up have taken low cost government funds and reinvested in the markets, and who is say how much the FED put into our markets, which does not benefit the broader economy. Instead of actively seeking out programs to loan money to small business and create jobs they want to make sure the winners in the Derivatives Games, a most crooked enterprise that is nowhere as complex as they make it out to be, more like Vegas on leverage and steroids, maybe financial crystal meth, yet the winners of those games want their money though the losers didn’t have enough money to pay what they owed.

          It looks to me like the Russian Federation is controlled by Oligarchs, so is Israel, and America, home of the free and the brave, well we seem to be headed there if we have not already arrived. When elections are won by whoever has the most dollars to spend, then we are screwed. 2016 should see the rise of a Centrist Party that is more inclusive of all concerned.

          For years watching the news it would be like this: a suicide Palestinian bomber today entered an Israeli café, etc; followed by Israel counterattacked and killed a bunch of Palestinians; followed by peace talks, followed by more murder on both sides. I questioned how could any people be so full of hate that they resort to carrying out these suicide attacks. One day an Orthodox priest from a church in southern California told me he had an old friend who was a Palestinian Christian who grew up close to the beach in present day Israel, I didn’t get the exact location, doesn’t matter, its anecdotal not fictional. The Palestinian Christian family’s mother would have her kids take food down to the beach area before they were allowed to eat their dinner in order to help the Jewish refugees who had washed up on shore like Flotsam and Jetsam. These same Palestinians were later forced out of their home, the one they had lived in for at least 3 generations, they came to America, end of story. The point is they were forced out, compensated for the home I assume(think that gave them the capital to come here), not like today as Israel expands and uses bulldozer diplomacy, but I believe I made my point and anyway that is how I have grown to comprehend the plight and tragedy of the Palestinian people, though it may seem a oversimplification to many more educated in the manner than I.

          Obama and his administration are like a baseball player hitting a sacrifice bunt with the bases empty, its a guarantee for failure, you lose, we all lose, but you probably won’t offend many people. Romney, genius that he is, he has come out of the minor leagues and facing some major league pitching but he ain’t making contact. He is swinging for the fences, but having trouble focusing on the ball. My point is a sacrifice bunt at this time guarantees not change but more of the same failure that has plagued the present administration. Romney can be trained, more time spent learning in the political batting cage, a new administration that granted, may be similar to Obama’s ineffective cohorts, but this time it is time for change. Of course I can always write in Barry Goldwater(1964) to signify the similarities if Republicans don’t get it together in time and Romney continues to strike out.

      • Ellen says:

        Kalithea, absolutely right. Recently a former Obama Administration staffer blurted out at a fund raising event that”the Palistinians have no interest in peace.” I witnessed it. Same language used by Romney.

        she was not speaking for the Administration, but it exposed the prevailing mindset. What is interesting is that her meme mirrored Romney’s. These guys are parrots.

      • seafoid says:

        The dems are rotten at the moment but the people who vote for them aren’t. The lower middle classes who vote republican after 30 years of stagnant median income are stupid. End of.

        The republicans are looking at a declining white proportion in the population and they have constructed a parallel reality via their media friends. Fox is BS and so are the talk stations.

        Climate change is a liberal fantasy, is it? That is the most obnoxious example but it is just the tip of the melting iceberg.

        When Israel goes belly up the Dems will recognise the changed landscape. The Republicans won’t.

        Israel is just a side issue to the main beef anyway . Americans are going to have to wake the **** up over the next 20 years and the Republicans won’t be able to join them on the journey.

        I think post 2016 Obama will be a very interesting commentator even though I wouldn’t vote for him now. He could end up like Carter. Romney is a liability.
        America is in denial.

  2. seafoid says:

    Watching the video with the waiting staff scurrying around while the rich guy speaks reminds me of “the Great Gatsby”.

    • chocopie says:

      I turned off the sound and just watched that one guy stuffing his piehole till his cheeks were bulging. He’s probably hoping to steal some Palestinian family’s olive grove if Romney wins. But he should relax, because he’ll probably be able to get it even if Obama wins.

    • Mitt Midas is a truly loathsome individual. And if he gets anywhere near the reins of power, he’ll definitely have a reverse Midas touch (i.e. everything will turn to shite – even for his billion dollar buddies).

  3. eljay says:

    >> One takeaway from Mitt Romney’s comments on Israel/Palestine is that they expose the candidate’s ignorance of the issue, as the Christian Science Monitor’s Dan Murphy points out. For instance, Romney says that “the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv.” This is clearly geographically wrong.

    That’s a pretty weak point with which to “expose [Romney's] ignorance”. In the two sentences that immediately follow the one partially quoted above, Romney adds: “It’s—what the border would be? Maybe seven miles from Tel Aviv to what would be the West Bank… ” A quick look at Google Maps shows this to be clearly geographically correct.

    On the other hand, this comment…
    >> “Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace.”
    …demonstrates a tremendous amount of ignorance.

    • To be accurate, the narrowest point between “Israeli” coast and border with West Bank is actually 9.3 miles (15 km). From Tel Aviv a bit lower on the map it should be a bit more than that, maybe 13 miles. It’s very narrow but not the 7 miles Rmoney stated.

      • eljay says:

        >> From Tel Aviv a bit lower on the map it should be a bit more than that, maybe 13 miles. It’s very narrow but not the 7 miles Rmoney stated.

        Romney’s off-the-cuff estimate was “maybe seven miles” from Tel Aviv to the West Bank. Unlike his other comment – “Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace.” – the fact that the West Bank is actually six miles farther away from Tel Aviv is not proof of his “ignorance” on the I-P issue.

        (Similarly, if an American politician were to express concern for Seoul because the border with North Korea is “maybe fifteen miles” away – rather than 30 miles away – it would not be an indicator of his “ignorance” regarding tensions between the two Koreas.)

        And as far as underscoring his message of concern about Israel’s security against a potential Palestinian threat from the West Bank, the difference of six miles is irrelevant.

        • Citizen says:

          @ eljay
          There’s a strategic military axiom from antiquity to the present that you need a certain amount of land between you and the enemy. Problem is, Israel really has no legal right to that land. The rest is BS. (This is a reason why Israel takes Palestinian land continually, and will never settle for anything but a Palestinian state that is sovereign in name only.

  4. lysias says:

    Romney made these remarks at a fundraiser at the house of private equity manager Marc J. Leder in Boca Raton on May 17. One wonders how much of his audience was Jewish.

  5. Krauss says:

    And now we know why the neocons cheered on him from the beginning and why the neocon donor class kept at his side from the beginning.

    Sure, Gingrich was going to be a tool too, but Gingrich is inflammable. Romney’s calmer, smarter and easier to control.

    This was the price that they neocons wanted from Romney. You get our money, we get to bury the 2SS solution.

    This shows the importance of independent journalism. Bravo to Mother Jones and David Corn!

    Do you think you’d see this kind of reporting in the NYT, even if they got the tapes on the 2SS? Maybe they’d show the 47 % bit, but this?
    Never.

    • Mooser says:

      “Sure, Gingrich was going to be a tool too, but Gingrich is inflammable. Romney’s calmer, smarter and easier to control.”

      Oh, it’s easy for you to say Romney’s smart, you know you’ve always got that +15 tucked away up there, Krauss. But those of us without that advantage try to tear fine smart, calm men like Romney down. Hey, Romney sure showed all those great qualities this week, huh?

  6. Citizen says:

    It seems Mitt knows absolutely nothing regarding the history of Zionism, and the consequential history of the I-P conflict. He just accepts pure hasbara boilerplate premise regarding Palestinian resistance. Every US regime falls for the Jew/Israel victimhood good guys premise. AIPAC-Israel win every time; the pressure is just too much for any US mainland politician of either main party. Israel’s security is the rubber band the Israel Firsters can just stretch endlessly, and if an American leader points this out, he or she has “thrown Israel under the bus.” Courage vanishes contemplating loss of moneybags, whether a Soros or Adelson. Press is complicit all the way.

    Sabra-Shatila 1982; Iran 2012? How American best values, interests R crushed by #AIPAC-ISRAEL pliers. link to counterpunch.org

  7. stevieb says:

    Wow – clever fellow that Romney…

    • stevieb says:

      I, once about two years ago now, sent a letter to President Obama via the White House website. I wrote something along the lines of suggesting that the American people would back him if he were to stand up to the Israel Lobby – that he could change the world, even ‘save’ the world, blah blah blah. I clicked the box(in the affirmative) that asked if I would like a call back to my comment from the White House. I left my number.

      Anway, about 1/2 hour to 3/4 of an hour later I get a phone call. Long distance – and not a number or area code I’m familiar with (and I’m familiar with a few, with family in Europe and friends in the U.S) . So I’m shitting my pants, really. I really didn’t expect this. So I wait a few minutes, summon up the nerve and call back the number. Well it rang and rang, without any answering machine(or answer).

      I looked up the area code on the web and it turned out it was from California. And a quote “very wealthy and affluent” area in Southern California, I can’t remember which( though it did say, I’ve since forgotten).

      Maybe it was telemarketers, but I don’t think so…

      • ColinWright says:

        stevieb: “… So I’m shitting my pants, really. I really didn’t expect this. So I wait a few minutes, summon up the nerve and call back the number. Well it rang and rang…”

        Relax. You’re just not that important.

        Don’t take it personally. I’m not either.

  8. Citizen says:

    Mitt tries to appear factually reasonable, raising a couple of factual issues if a new Palestinian state was born, but he repeats, on initiation of his Mr Reason, Mr Businessman stance, and at his closure, that he assumes in any case the Palestinians really don’t want peace in the first place, and that they are committed to extinction of Israel. So he concludes he favors the status quo, kicking the can down the road, in the hope something will magically happen to resolve the situation. Imagine Mitt analyzing his investment options by gazing at a comparably biased graph of a fund’s performance.

    • piotr says:

      If you have a business plan that will not cause major problems for 5-10 years, you will sell the company when it rides high. Creating an illusion of value is often easier and more profitable than actual creation of value.

      • Citizen says:

        @ piotr
        Point well taken. Mitt would “turn around” a falling company by borrowing money in its name, then he would cut employees, downsize, etc to pay the company debt off. What a model for what he will do if he is POTUS. More federal debt, cut the 47% ‘s government lifeline, while sending higher compensation to the top bracket few. I bet he’d cut the mortgage deduction, child credit, etc in a nanosecond, but not any of the IRS subsidies, credits, allowances, tax off sets that favor big corporations and those with lots of spare change to invest, and of course, he’d lower the cap gains tax even more for the few who even know what a capital gain is apart from sale of their only home. No gain on those these days BTW. A loss.

  9. subconscious says:

    Unlike the other parts of the Romney tape which dissed Obama supporters as free-loaders and got widely reported, I doubt if these parts of the tape, revealing his views on the US-Israeli-Palestinian conflict, will get widely reported or denounced in the mainstream media. It wouldn’t be considered as scandalous as the voter-dissing part. Also, watching the Republicans carving up and eating their food, w/ cutlery noise & all, while Romney is rejecting any Palestinian sovereignty, is symbolic of Israel carving up and devouring the WB while Romney would be presiding over the Mideast conflict.

    • Mondowise says:

      i’m glad to see it’s being covered on CNN…an entire section with multiple articles about the leaked tapes. in the article “In new tape, Romney casts doubt on peace for Israelis and Palestinians”, they link to Mother Jones and include a couple of Hanan Ashrawi quotes (this woman should be president)

    • Citizen says:

      @ subconscious
      Nobody in mainstream cable TV news shows has questioned his blanket statement that Palestinians are not interested in peace and want extermination of Israel.

  10. Mndwss says:

    Romney has accused President Barack Obama of “throwing Israel under the bus”.

    Romney has thrown Palestine under the Israeli Skunk truck.

    • kalithea says:

      The comment I just posted was not meant for you.

      Hopefully, everyone who really cares will figure out that I’m addressing “concerned” Zionists.

  11. David Samel says:

    Romney, through no credit of his own, is being refreshingly candid about how he and Israeli leaders view the situation. He has removed the fig leaf of the two-state solution, which is not only unworkable but also undesirable to them. The one-state solution is of course unthinkable. As Sheizaf says, the continuation of the status quo is the most rational choice for Israel. For all the talk about how it is “unsustainable,” it has sustained quite well for 45 years and counting. Israelis can live with it just fine. They get to control everything, and gradually steal more and more Palestinian land. They can tolerate very well their imposition of abject misery upon millions of people who don’t count. True, there is a slight but growing danger that it will be seen for the apartheid system that it is. But somehow, they continue to glorify themselves as the only democracy in the Middle East despite their military rule over four million people without voting rights, and they get away with it, at least among the political and media elites of the world’s most powerful nation. If it ain’t broke, . . .

    Romney’s bottom line that the status quo is a viable option represents the truest feelings of Israel’s leadership. It is undiplomatic to say it publicly, and he did not intend to do so, but the unvarnished truth is perversely refreshing. This is the plan for the future: do nothing while pretending to want to do something.

    • piotr says:

      The “non-sustainability” of the continuation of the current Israeli policies is a bit subtle. To give some perspective, I will ask: why torture is a bad method of obtaining intelligence?

      After some study, can it work, it does not work, no, it does, I observed the biggest setback of torture as a policy: it drives perpetrators insane. It is addictive. Planning torture is addictive. People who find it revolting are driven away from position of influence, so you purge the system from the most sane and thus most qualified.

      The “status quo” policy in Israel is perpetual war. War drives people insane too, to be vengeful, paranoid, intolerant etc.

      • Mooser says:

        And I can’t see the “one-state solution” as anything but locking the Palestinians in with the Zionists to slug it out, only the Zionists all have guns.

      • Mooser says:

        “To give some perspective, I will ask: why torture is a bad method of obtaining intelligence?”

        You’ll have to talk to Colin Wright about that. He seems to think it’s an effective and useable technique. Check his archive, word-search “torture”.

        • ColinWright says:

          Mooser says: “…You’ll have to talk to Colin Wright about that. He seems to think it’s an effective and useable technique. Check his archive, word-search “torture”…”

          You should check it too! Try reading the whole conversation.

      • Inanna says:

        Isn’t the biggest setback of torture is its complete lack of usefulness in obtaining information, since anyone experiencing pain will confess to anything to make the pain stop?

    • chinese box says:

      Romney, through no credit of his own, is being refreshingly candid about how he and Israeli leaders view the situation. He has removed the fig leaf of the two-state solution, which is not only unworkable but also undesirable to them.

      @David Samel,

      It’s useful and revealing to those of us already involved in this issue, but I question whether the average Americans will pick up on this. I seriously doubt many people in this country are aware fully aware of the various ramifications of 1ss, 2ss, bantustan “solution”, “kicking the can down the road”, etc. And even if people do pick up on it they may erroneously ascribe this mindset to the Republicans only.

  12. seanmcbride says:

    You know, when a future Edward Gibbon writes “The Decline and Fall of Zionism,” I suspect that he or she will be fascinated by this trajectory: a political movement which began with its roots in socialism and progressivism (even Marxism) ended up fully associated and identified with the world’s most extreme oligarchs and plutocrats. The historical irony of it all.

    We are living during a phase of Zionism in which multibillionaires like Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban (made guys and bosses) are able to purchase the services of mere quarter-billionaires like Mitt Romney (associates and hirelings).

    Israel has placed itself in sharp opposition to more than 99% of the world’s population — not a smart political move.

  13. pabelmont says:

    We may not like Romney (I don’t) but as to asking (making) Israel give up something IN ORDER TO BRING ALONG THE Palestinians, I agree.

    The pressure should be to require Israel to comply with international law, to remove all settlers and demolish (dismantle) all settlements, and the wall, and break the siege of Gaza.

    This pressure would be felt by the Israelis as pressure to negotiate, but those applying the pressure could adopt (and claim) a pure law-and-order position.

  14. radii says:

    Bibi recruited Mitt in college … Bibi, your subtlety is showing

  15. kalithea says:

    Let’s get real; Romney is only voicing what both parties believe: none care about Palestinians or their rights. Zionist money talks; bullshet walks. Everyone kicks the can down the road and Democrats are the worst offenders of all because they go through the motions and pretend to give Palestinians hope. Obama did SQUAT and gave Israel more funding, aircraft and weaponry than any other President!

    Okay so now that the two-state solution is dead, because only delusionals believe it isn’t, CAN WE PLEASE START REFERRING TO ISRAEL AS THE APARTHEID STATE, and quit legitimizing oppression with some fictitious hope that this situation will ever change??? Every time we refer to Israel as merely Israel or the state of Israel WE ARE LEGITIMIZING APARTHEID! It’s time to legitimize addressing Israel, as APARTHEID Israel, or the Apartheid State of Israel. Quit talking about doing it and put it to practice already!

    THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. It’s been dead for a long time and it’s farcical and insulting to keep talking about it, tearing hope down with further discussion on it and to keep imagining that Democrats are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat when they care SQUAT about Palestinians and so do most Americans!

    Nothing will happen for the Palestinians until the entire world starts calling a spade a spade and Israel, APARTHEID Israel!

  16. The Daily Mail (UK) originally titled their converage of this story “Mitt Romney told wealthy Jewish donors there is no point in seeking Middle East deal,” as you can see from the link–
    link to dailymail.co.uk

    It’s been subsequently changed to just “wealthy donors.” (Hey, there was probably at least a couple of gentiles in that room.) BTW, the host of the event was a leveraged buy-out guy called Marc Leder.

    • lysias says:

      Jonathan Chait in New York Magazine has no compunction about saying the audience was made up of Jewish donors:

      Unlike Romney’s deranged rant against the 47 percent, where he appeared to be speaking from the heart and had no reason to present himself in such terms to rich people who require only some general reassurance, Romney has a clear incentive here to cater to the views of his audience. Conservative Jewish donors have very right-wing views on Middle East policy. Romney’s comments here can easily be viewed as a pander as opposed to the unmasking of an authentic worldview.

      • Citizen says:

        @ lysias

        So, if Mitt gets in office, will he not be pushed into a war on Iran? Will he refuse, as Bush Jr did near the end of his term, and as Obama has done so far? Bibi has crying Iran’s about to have the bomb for 20 yrs, but I think he now figures it’s really now or never to attack. This ups the ante.

  17. For instance, Romney says that “the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv.” This is clearly geographically wrong.

    yeah, and he also said

    The other side of the West Bank, the other side of what would be this new Palestinian state would either be Syria at one point, or Jordan.

    syria? that’s news to me.

    • dimadok says:

      “This is clearly geographically wrong. “- have you checked Google maps recently? The distance from Tel Aviv suburbs to nearest Palestinian town is 15 min car drive. Try Qualqiliya.

      • a suburb is not the same as a city. i live in a suburb of SF, it takes me 30 minutes to get there.

        from Tel Aviv suburbs to nearest Palestinian town is 15 min car drive

        for whom?

      • Elliot says:

        Dimadok is right on this one. Metropolitan Tel Aviv, is the center of Israel and is right up against the border with the West Bank. If Romney were to explain this in meticulous detail, including the differentiation between the City of Tel Aviv-Jaffa and the surrounding towns that constitute Greater Tel Aviv (“Gush Dan”) plus the points that other commentators have raised (Qalqilya has a wall around it etc.) – his audience would still agree with the thrust of his comment: The West Bank border looms over Israel’s center. Certainly by any U.S. standard.

        Anyway, all this is beside the point.
        I don’t see the need for the article’s opening attack on Romney as an ignoramus.
        Romney is crass, cynical and anti-Palestinian – and he’s honest about it. Isn’t that enough rope to hang him with?

    • biorabbi says:

      He is confusing some sort of negotiation between Syria and Israel for the Golan Heights as contrasted to the West Bank between Israel and Palestine. Or he could be confusing the Druse of the Golan from the Palestinians. I guess they’re both part of the 47′th % tile? Romney is turning into Nixon without the charm. I thought he would beat Obama given the economy, but that was before I heard him speak.

      But to all the faux outrage here, I haven’t heard many Mondoweiss readers in favor of a two-state solution. I doubt very seriously that Obama believes it is feasible. I doubt very seriously that anybody feels it is possible on the dovish Israeli side or Palestinian side anymore.

      The only solutions left are the one state solution or some sort of continuation of the status quo.

      • yeah, the expansion/’facts on the ground’ make it unfeasible, that’s not the same as not being in favor of it. don’t confuse the two.

        • Mooser says:

          What am I missing about the “one-state solution”. What on earth makes it anything but the perfect chance for Israel to eliminate the Palestinians with the door closed to the rest of the world, as Israel deals with its “internal security”
          What is it I am missing? Who in the hell is going to go inside another sovereign state and tell them how to treat their citizens? That’s an invasion, isn’t it?
          Where is the assumption that a “one-state” will put any power or resources into the hands of the Palestinians? What am I missing? It doesn’t matter what the state is called, or who is in it, the Zionists are organised in and of themselves and I can’t see why they wouldn’t continue their program of Palestinian elimination even more easily from within the one-state?
          What am I missing?

        • libra says:

          Mooser: What am I missing?

          I hate to say this Mooser but you’re beginning to sound like Witty on this issue – he thought that in a single-state the Jews would just buy out the Palestinians (as liberal Zionist he really just wanted them to take the cash and depart quietly to somewhere else without making a fuss that would embarrass him). So to start a debate on this I offer the following brief answer.

          The one-state solution is anathema to all Zionists as it removes the fig-leaf for the current modus operandi of squeezing the Palestinians onto smaller and smaller parcels of (nominally separate) Palestinian land. Carry on this policy within a single-state and it’s formalised as Apartheid. Pressurise the Palestinian citizens to leave and it’s ethnic cleansing, “eliminate” them and it’s genocide. Could this be overlooked by the world? Not for long in my view, especially if the Palestinians maintained peaceful mass protests for their rights.

          For the outside world to effect change there is no need to intervene militarily. Serious sanctions would quickly cripple Israel. I have to believe that sufficient Israelis are more interested in the good life than a “Jewish state” and would decide separation from the world isn’t such a good idea after all.

          The above would still leave the Palestinians in a second-class position economically, that would be a longer-term struggle but the basis for success would be there with political equality.

          Perhaps I should add that I think the above prospect would be so horrifying to the current Israeli government that moves towards it would likely trigger an attempt to grab more of the West Bank and then try to impose an “independent” Palestine on the remaining fragments. But in my view, forcing Israel’s hand in such a manner is better than the current “no solution” (that Romney – at least – is prepared to go along with) as again the consequences would be very hard for the world to ignore.

        • thanks libra. i completely agree. great comment.

        • Inanna says:

          Mooser,

          what you’re missing is the fact that Israel never intends to allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Maybe a couple of Bantustans, tops.

          I agree with you that Palestinians are screwed either way but at least in a nation where they have equal voting rights, they have a chance at some form of justice.

        • Abierno says:

          I would side with Mooser. Please identify one instance wherein the US or
          the quartet have effectively set boundaries on illegal Israeli actions. Netanyahu is well aware of this and some of his associates have already indicated that if his administration expelled the Palestinians, there would
          be outraged verbiage but no real follow up.

          What gets forgotten is how close Olmert, Livni and Abbas were to establishing a two state solution in 2008. And what Romney either doesnt know or his neocon associates suppress is that with the ascension of Netanyahu owing to the support of Adelson and political guru Finkelstein that all negotiations stopped, and pressure on the US to tacitly back off on
          the settlement issue ratched up, with extensive coordination of US/Jewish
          organizations such as AIPAC. Romney’s stated position simply reflects the Adelson/Netanyahu policy regarding Palestine – with time, Israel will own it all. (The Levy report?) Also not mentioned is the fact that when the quartet more recently asked for plans from both Israel and Palestine as a basis for continuing negotiations, the Palestinians provided theirs and Netanyahu refused to comply with the result that the Quartet – as usual – demurred to Israel’s position and the negotiations quietly ended.

          Given this history, as well as Israel having no respect for the UN or its lawful prescriptions, I would suggest that with a one state solution, the Israelis would simply see it as an opportunity to accelerate current policies, possibly treating the Palestinians as they do lawful refugees – either expelling them outright or placing them in concentration camps. As regards sanctions, please cite some reference somewhere that would suggest that the current US House of Representatives or Senate would vote for sanctions
          on Israel.

        • seafoid says:

          The closest israel got to giving the palestinians crumbs of land was 2000 and that was a joke. Olmert got nowhere near. the settlers have been in charge since the start of Oslo.

        • dimadok says:

          What you are saying can be summarized as follows: Palestinians cannot be bought, however Israelis can? Fact check for you-most of the liberal Zionists do serve in IDF, and do believe in Jewish state and do have ideological merits. Not everything can be bought.

      • American says:

        “”But to all the faux outrage here, I haven’t heard many Mondoweiss readers in favor of a two-state solution.”

        Well I have favored the 2 state solution all along…and I’m not faux.
        Israel has made it near impossible however.

  18. bobsmith says:

    I am waiting for someone to do a Romney impersonation while dressed as Marie Antoinette. This is possibly the only thing that could cheer me up about this year’s election.

    • marc b. says:

      I am waiting for someone to do a Romney impersonation while dressed as Marie Antoinette.

      pre- or post-guillotine?

      • ColinWright says:

        Marc b. says: ” ‘I am waiting for someone to do a Romney impersonation while dressed as Marie Antoinette’

        pre- or post-guillotine?”

        I’ll do ‘pre’ if I can see Mooser as conclusively ‘post’ first.

  19. ColinWright says:

    Well, it’s problematical what the rest of the world would have done to deserve it — but if we elect this bozo, we deserve what we’ll have coming to us.

  20. Rusty Pipes says:

    Let them eat pizza (if there’s any left over after the settlers carve it up)!

  21. Sin Nombre says:

    You guys aren’t thinking this through. You should be *cheering* Romney on.

    “No second state? Well then of course you have to agree that Israel give the Palestinians the right to vote at least in whatever state they are in, right?”

    And thereby ask him if he also doesn’t believe in democracy.

    That’s the problem with the morons the Neo-cons use like Bush and Romney; at *some* point *some* daylight intrudes.

    And at least *something* is happening, instead of watching the Israelis and the U.S. keep paying off the P.A. to pretend it’s doing anything, all the while watching the pizza it should be fighting over getting eaten by settlers.

    • ColinWright says:

      Sin Nombre: “You guys aren’t thinking this through. You should be *cheering* Romney on…”

      I would…except that I have this foolish hope that something will turn up, that we’ll be able to salvage this country.

      And weak as Obama is, he’ll do less damage to it than Romney would. So vote for Obama — and hope that if a light at the end of the tunnel appears, it’s not an oncoming train.

  22. giladg says:

    If you doubt the premise that the Palestinians are not interested in peace, I invite you to review Yassar Arafats “Salami Speech” from 1994, one year after the Oslo Accords were signed. Asked how he could have supported the agreement, Arafat admitted that they had a plan for the destruction of Israel and I believe he said that it would take 32 years. Interesting how he came up with this number.
    What this told me at the time was that Arafat had a plan to take from Israel whatever he could under the Oslo “umbrella” and when the big issues, that were left to the end, would cause the negotiations to fall apart, he (Arafat) would step back and blame Israel for the breakdown and then let the Europeans, BDS and others to take over “dealing” with Israel. Arafat made the infamous “salami speech” in South Africa, in a mosque and it was on this trip that he adopted the long term tactic, as it was used against apartheid South Africa, to be used against Israel. This is why we continually hear the lie that Israel is like or even worse than apartheid South Africa. Israel is nothing of the sort, but the Palestinians need this to push their plan forward.

    • is that all you got gilad? heck i can cite the atlantic and debunk that.

      link to theatlantic.com

      It’s never hard to find cynics willing to question the motives of either the Israeli or Palestinian leaders engaged in the peace process. And it’s never hard to find cause for cynicism in that long, frustrating, difficult process. But it’s unsettling to see a would-be leader of U.S. foreign policy, which includes stewardship of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, so blithely and sweepingly dismiss an entire side. It would be surprising enough if Romney had suggested that, say, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has “no interest whatsoever in establishing peace,” but to treat Palestinians as categorically opposed to peace is a rather extreme interpretation, one that would not seem to serve his potential role as mediator.

      btw, arafat is no longer with us in case you hadn’t heard.

      • giladg says:

        Annie, I don’t know you. I assume you are an ashiest/agnostic. In general, it is very difficult for someone, from this position, to understand how and what drives a religious and/or “affiliated” Muslim, Christian or Jew.
        Arafat may be long dead, but his legacy lives on. Abbas is a loyal soldier to Arafat and was part of the team that came up with the strategy I refer to.
        If you ever reach a point whereby you understand the game they have been playing, you are going to feel like someone who has been deceived and used, and you are not going to like it.
        One “light” article in the Atlantic does not debunk anything. When you live it and breath it, you understand exactly what the strategy is. The game of deception, as played by the Palestinians, uses well intentioned but naive souls. The Palestinians are always referring to the Ra’is. For them, only part of him is dead. You should follow Arabic news. Listen to them in their own words instead of relying on Barghouti and his propaganda machine to be the go-between.

        • One “light” article in the Atlantic does not debunk anything.

          sure it does, it debunks the idea you can make generalizations about a people from one or two leaders.

        • No Gilad , you should listen Israeli news in Hebrew and see teh face it hides from US by using English.
          Read Palestine papers from Guardain and from Al Zajeera.

        • giladg says:

          If you pay attention to what Arafat said in his “Salami Speech” and many, many times subsequent, Jerusalem is their main aim. Abbas has continued the same line. This is a religious position that they have taken. When they talk about Jerusalem, what they really mean is the Temple Mount. You need to understand this point and never forget it.
          And if you have been paying attention to what has been going on in the Middle East, you would have noticed that the Muslim Brotherhood is on rise. In Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Iran, Lebanon, Tunisia, Syria, Jordan, the Gaza Strip and also in the West Bank, but are currently being subdued there by Abbas, even though they have the same goal. In the meantime the so called moderates like Barghouti mess with you minds. You think and believe there are reasonable individuals, with whom you can do the business with. If you have learnt anything from the Arab “spring”, then you would have realized that the moderates are squashed in a flash and the Islamists take over. The same goes for the Palestinians. They are no different and they have no intention on finding a reasonable solution to the Arab/Israeli conflict that leaves the Jews in any position of strength. By strength I mean with continued connection to sites central to Judaism and with borders that can be defended. Therefor Romney’s statement is accurate.

        • Mayhem says:

          From Wikipedia

          Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, “I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace.”
          The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit. Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr [a former minister in the Palestinian Authority who was shot in the legs through the window of his house in Ramallah by unknown gunmen in 2004].

          Demanding after a stoush or two on the battlefield to return to the previous armistice lines as if nothing had happened (they can never lose or admit to it because it goes against their culture which cannot cope with blame or shame).Always making pre-conditions.
          So much for Palestinian peace efforts …

        • gilad, why do you keep talking about arafat? are you intentionally clogging up the thread? and now mayhem is on it too. he’s dead.

          When they talk about Jerusalem, what they really mean is the Temple Mount.

          if only you knew how funny this sounds. have you ever looked at the skyline of jerusalem, see that big gold dome….not everyone looks in that direction and thinks ‘temple mount’. just sayin’.

          here’s a little reminder for you not all palestinians think the same.

          link to rawstory.com

          “No one has an interest in peace more than the Palestinian people, because peace for the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leadership means freedom and independence from the Israeli occupation,” Erakat said.

          “No one loses from the failure to achieve peace more than our people and its leadership, because it means the continuation of the occupation and the (Israeli) settlements (in the occupied territories) and the continuing tragedy of our people.”

          need i remind you if someone were generalizing about jews the way romney has re palestinians (your defense of his comments directly implicates you here too) has would be called racist.

        • eljay says:

          >> … [Palestinians] have no intention on finding a reasonable solution to the Arab/Israeli conflict …

          Unlike Zio-supremacists, who are more than happy to find a “reasonable solution” that includes:
          - Israel remaining a supremacist “Jewish State”;
          - Israel keeping all that it has stolen;
          - the Palestinians forgoing all they have lost (aside from whatever meager scraps the Zio-supremacists may choose to throw them); and
          - no accountability for past or ON-GOING crimes committed by Zio-supremacists or the “Jewish State”.

          Shame on those Palestinians for being so unreasonable!

        • giladg says:

          Annie, you touch on a point that defines the difference between Right and Left. The Left prefer to look “forward” to the near future and have little regard for history. The Right place heavy emphasis on history and on long term goals.
          The problem with Erkat’s statement is that he has no intention of finding a win-win solution. I am sorry to say but your comments on the Temple Mount and the skyline of Jerusalem shows just how out of touch you really are. The major players in the Palestinian camp are looking in this direction but they do not tell you this in English. As I suggested to you before, try to follow Arabic websites (translations off) on websites like MEMRI. Missing from your available resources is understanding of Hebrew. You can get news clips online, often showing clips of Palestinians talking in Arabic, translated with Hebrew subtitles. Unfortunately you are just fed the bits “necessary” to keep you interested in the Palestinian cause. You are being used.
          Regarding myself being a racist, on a personal level I am not. On a national level I will fight the Palestinian national cause with all I have, until such a time when they are ready to accept a solution with Israel instead of on top of it’s ruins they hope to bring about. Remember that Palestinians have never in all of history, controlled Jerusalem. Even for one day. Yet they are making this their highest goal with total disregard for Jewish history. This is what it is all about. The other stuff is purely a distraction.

        • The Left prefer to look “forward” to the near future and have little regard for history. The Right place heavy emphasis on history and on long term goals.

          i thought you might appreciate this most excellent speech at Australia’s National Press Club last night. i recommend..

          link to abc.net.au

          to say the left has little regard for history is so ridiculous it’s hard to know how to respond.

          The major players in the Palestinian camp are looking in this direction but they do not tell you this in English.

          sure they do. maybe you missed jerusalem vote at the dem convention. i’d say the cat’s kinda out of the bag gilad, in all languages.

          Remember that Palestinians have never in all of history, controlled Jerusalem.

          triple yawn!

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Remember that Palestinians have never in all of history, controlled Jerusalem. Even for one day”

          LMAO, as opposed to the Jews, who controlled it for 15 minutes back in the Mesozoic era.

        • ColinWright says:

          giladg: “…Remember that Palestinians have never in all of history, controlled Jerusalem…”

          If length of control is your criterion, then clearly Jerusalem should be a Muslim city. Number two would be Greece, I suppose — first on account of the Hellenic tenure, and then courtesy Byzantium. Italy could insert a claim. Western Europe has a couple of short but clear periods of control…

          Lessee…going by faith, we’ve got Muslims at 1300 years, Christians at 300-400, Romano-Hellenic pagans at about 600, Jews at about 100…take 200 if you like. That Jewish tenure would also be the Palestinian tenure, incidentally. Many Palestinians practiced Judaism back then.

          Persia I suppose could claim primacy. The city seems to first historically appear as a significant place in their administration.

          But what’s your point?

        • Hostage says:

          Remember that Palestinians have never in all of history, controlled Jerusalem. Even for one day.

          In fact it’s a matter of public record that an Ottoman-era official memorandum, written by a member of the Sultan’s entourage in the Yildiz Palace, Ahmed Hamdi in 1884 complained that between Aqaba in the south and the northern towns of Nablus and Salt there was a stretch of 800 hours travel distance of an anarchic nature where no single government employee was ever seen or heard from and which was entirely left to the local shaykhs (‘urban mesayihine terk olan)”. See the discussion on pages 53 & 54 of Johann Büssow, Hamidian Palestine: Politics and Society in the District of Jerusalem 1872-1908 link to books.google.com

          Even in the best of times, the Sultan exercised suzerainty through the ruling class of local notables, & tribal and clan chiefs. Even the Jewish Virtual Library has biographical articles which explain that the Palestinian representative of the District of Jerusalem was the Speaker of the Ottoman Parliament. See link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

        • Blake says:

          @giladg: It amazes me how you oppressors can speak for Palestinians. Afrikaners in Apartheid South Africa did the same thing. “Life is better when the natives have no freedom” is all it amounts to what you are saying.

        • giladg says:

          “triple yawn”. I’ll tell you want triple yawn is. It is total arrogance and disdain for the truth and a tactic that is common on the Left.

        • eljay says:

          >> Regarding myself being a racist, on a personal level I am not.

          Perhaps you’re not a racist, but you sure as hell are a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.

        • giladg says:

          15-0, 800-0, 1000-0, 1500-0
          Zero is 0, no matter how you try to dress it. And where do you get 15 from anyway?

        • I’ll tell you want triple yawn is. It is total arrogance and disdain for the truth and a tactic that is common on the Left.

          triple ouch!

        • eljay says:

          >> I’ll tell you want triple yawn is. It is total arrogance and disdain for the truth …

          Says the hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist. G*ddamn, that’s funny stuff!

          :-)

        • giladg says:

          Afrikaner rule was all of 40 years. Do yourself a favor and try and understand what proportional means.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “I’ll tell you want triple yawn is. It is total arrogance and disdain for the truth and a tactic that is common on the Left.”

          LOL. Nonsense. What is total arrogance and disdain for the truth is the bullshit notion that a people who have had no connection to Palestine for 2000 years, save for being fans of story books set there, have a greater right to that land than the people who’ve lived there during that 2000 years. That’s arrogance and disdain for the truth.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Perhaps you’re not a racist, but you sure as hell are a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.”

          One cannot be a zionist without a racist, because zionism = racism.

        • giladg says:

          My point is that Palestinians have no right to the city, especially not control of the holy sites. A nation that is barely 150 years old wants sovereignty over the holiest site of another religion that is thousands of years old. And at no point in the past 2,000 years has Jerusalem been as open and as free for all religions, as it is and has been under Israeli control. And so it will remain so with continued respect to Islam and Christianity. Palestinians need a reality check. Israel is ready to share but at no point have we ever heard of a compromise from the Palestinians that maintains a strong Jewish connection to the Temple Mount, the holiest site for Jews. The city cannot be divided and anyone who understands the geography as well as the religious landmines, knows why.

        • Mooser says:

          “On a national level I will fight the Palestinian national cause with all I have, until such a time when they are ready to accept a solution with Israel instead of on top of it’s ruins they hope to bring about.”

          Calm down, giladg! Just wait until you’re all in “one-state” together, and then you can deal with those who want to overthrow and take over the one-state. After, overthrowing the state by violent means? That’s treason baby! BTW, don’t forget to keep fighting the “one-state solution” as if it will somehow force you to give Palestinians rights! That will shorten the time until you are left alone with them. Say, better still, ever heard of Br’er Rabbit?

        • Mayhem says:

          @Annie, instead of the ABC interview with Pappe to which you have alluded where Pappe was going a free ride turn your attention to an interview Pappe gave to Le Soir newspaper:

          Q: Did you first become communist or “new historian”?

          A: I have to correct something: I like life too much to be communist! I am socialist. True I am member of Hadash which is a front where you find the communist party to which I don’t belong. You also find the non-Zionist Arab-Jewish group to which I belong. I think both my political commitment and historian known position developped simultaneously. And one supported the other. Because of my ideology I understood documents I saw in the archives the way I understood them, and because of the documents in the archives I became more convinced in the ideological way I took. A complicated process! Some colleague told me I ruined our cause by admitting my ideological platform. Why? Everbody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.

          Pappe admits what he writes is not about facts but ideology. If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying. This is the position of many who post here at MW.

        • Hostage says:

          If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying.

          No, the extract that you just quoted speaks for itself. But your lame attempt at a summary is not an accurate restatement of what he said.

        • Mooser says:

          “On a national level I will fight the Palestinian national cause with all I have, until such a time when they are ready to accept a solution with Israel instead of on top of it’s ruins they hope to bring about.”

          Now, I wouldn’t want anybody to think I was being unfair to “giladg” (how on earth do you pronounce that? is “dg” like “tczh” or something?)
          and I want everybody know that he said “national”. It’s nothing personal, he’s got nothing personal in all this. Nope, if the Israeli Government said ‘empty the settlements’ and ‘we must pay reparations’ and ‘equal rights for all’ and ‘we’ll need affirmative actions to catch up on the equality etc.’ “giladg” who is ready to give his life for the cause of preventing the Palestinians from taking over and driving him and all the little Israeli children into the sea, will forget all about that, and welcome them as brothers, with open arms. It’s nothing personal, nope, just a political position, and he can turn on a dime if asked to do so. Yup. Gosh, won’t recalcitrant Southerners in the US be abashed, when they see the turn-around!
          That’s how it goes, you see, one day you think the Palestinians are ready to cut your throat and take your country away, and may have to be exterminated, and the next, poof, you let it all go. Nothing personal, nothing racist.
          Remember, Jews don’t lie, and it’s anti-you-know-what to accuse them of it.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying.”

          LOL. No, that’s not what he’s saying, but I don’t expect the likes of you to be honest.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Mayhem wrote:

          Pappe admits what he writes is not about facts but ideology. If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying. This is the position of many who post here at MW.

          How many misstatements of fact can you find in my comments on Mondoweiss? Please name even one.

          Few groups on planet Earth are more mired down in a rigid ideology than Zionists. Most human beings have abandoned ethnic nationalist ideologies altogether as not being defensible or sustainable. Free yourself of your mental chains.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Demanding after a stoush or two on the battlefield to return to the previous armistice lines as if nothing had happened (they can never lose or admit to it because it goes against their culture which cannot cope with blame or shame).Always making pre-conditions.
          So much for Palestinian peace efforts …”

          Seldom does one see so much bullshit, self-aggrandizement, excuse-making for zionist evil and racism mixed together in so few words.

        • no, he admits no such thing. Because of ones ideology one understands archival documents the way one understands them, and because of that one can either become more convinced, or not. Some colleague told him he ruined the cause by admitting an ideological platform. but he argues everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. (which they probably do) Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. no where does he say he doesn’t write about facts. here is more from the same interview:

          Q: It is precisely because of that very conclusion that you appear to be so controversial in your country, isn’t it? Because you say “There was a unwritten Zionist plan to expel the Arabs of Palestine in 48″…

          A: Absolutely. They were cautious enough not to write it although there was this “plan D” (Dalet), that reveals enough of the systematic expulsion. The idea was prepared by the Jewish military forces in March 1948. In that plan, they defined very a important principle: any Arab village or neighbourhood that would not surrender to the Jewish forces, that would not raise the white flag, would be uprooted, destroyed and the people expelled. I think they knew well that there was very little chances for more than five or six villages to surrender. Why should they surrender, especially after (the massacre of) Deir Yassin in April and the big fright in the Arab community? In fact, only four villages rose the white flag. All the rest were potentially an object of expulsion. I must add that a few other neighbourhoods rose the white flag but it didn’t help them… All this is very clear. We have to remember that the UN partition plan of November 1947 would have left an equal number of Jews and Arabs in the Jewish state. This contradicted the idea of a Jewish state. So they had to make sure that as few Arabs as possible were still there. And that’s what happened.

          Back to the old historians, I would say they are more suspicious of my ideological trappings than that of Benny Morris, also because I am more relativist. I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings, but so what? I mean it is the case for everybody.

          Q: Both Morris and you worked on the same issues, established the same facts and yet you failed to draw the same conclusions (Morris keeps on claiming that even though there was expulsion of thousands Arabs, one cannot say that there was ever a masterplan of mass expulsion)…

          A: Morris is more positivist: if it is only implicit, not written, he doesn’t want to raise it in his books. I think historians should go further than that. The nature of the discussion is that: Morris says that even if someone says he wants to expulse you from your house and you run away because you know that it is what he wants to do, this is not called expulsion. I regard it as expulsion. I regard the transfer of people from one neighbourhood in Haifa to another as transfer, not as dislocation: it is an experience of refugeehood which is more difficult sometimes than leaving your town altogether for you see daily the people who took you house.

          So these are the kinds of disagreement. I claim that they also stem from ideological positions, not just from facts. I am more anti-Zionist if you want, and Morris still regards himself as zionist, may be this is where the difference lies.

          link to ee.bgu.ac.il

          he writes about facts, the way he interprets them is thru his ideology. it doesn’t mean he’s not applying the facts or the archives.

          for example, when he says “Morris says that even if someone says he wants to expulse you from your house and you run away because you know that it is what he wants to do, this is not called expulsion. I regard it as expulsion.” they are both working from the same facts. pappe, like you..are going to interpret those facts differently. maybe you will even deny the archived evidence. but pappe doesn’t ignore the facts and he does write about them. most all historians interpret events thru their own lens.

        • eljay says:

          >> If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying.

          Zio-supremacists appear to have taken Mr. Pappé’s lesson to heart…and perfected it!

        • Mooser says:

          “Pappe admits what he writes is not about facts but ideology. If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying. This is the position of many who post here at MW.”

          Did Israel take Olympic Gold in Calvin-ball this year? Or did they just give themselves (I mean, who could be a better judge?) the perpetual championship?

        • Mooser says:

          “but he argues everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. (which they probably do)”

          Yep, wanting to live and not be killed or dispossesed could be called an ideology, I guess.

        • Mayhem says:

          The anti-Zionist droves come out to defend their pinup boy Pappe, a proponent of ideology over facts. No spin can put aside the fact that Pappe is pushing a political agenda and using ‘history’ that he doctors to his advantage. This guy is supposed to be a historian concerned with what has actually happened, but he doesn’t abide by this fundamental premise. Too hard he mutters.
          The pro-Israel side is constantly abused for using hasbara which is aiming to produce facts for discussion, while Palestinian supporters want to get off scot free for producing a doctored. revisionist narrative.
          Furthermore Pappe is not only an ideologue, he is also a proven liar.
          Refer to the Teddy Katz saga, where one of his students pushed the myth of a massacre that had occurred in Tantura near Haifa in 1948. This was exposed and Pappe supported the trope.

          The middle aged MA student named Teddy Katz, submitted a masters thesis to the University of Haifa that had been prepared under the supervision of Israel’s most extremist and anti-Zionist academic, Ilan Pappe. Pappe likes to describe himself as Israel’s most hated person and I suspect he may be on to something there.
          Pappe’s student Teddy Katz claimed that a platoon of the Alexandroni brigade of the Hagana had in 1948 conducted a massacre of Arabs at the town of Tantura near Haifa in Israels 1948 war.
          It was, as it turned out, a complete fabrication based on some Arabs suddenly recovering from repressed memory syndrome after 50 years and claiming there had been a massacre when they were infants. Except, when the tapes of interviews with these folks were checked out, it turned out even these Arabs had never said there was any massacre. but rather that the Hagana had been very nice about helping the civilians.
          When word hit the press, the Hagana vets organization sued Katz and the University of Haifa for libel. Eventually the matter reached a court settlement in which Katz agreed to admit publicly he had lied, publish a retraction at his own expense, and apologize to the vets. Katz was represented in all this by ultras-leftist lawyer Avigdor Feldman, who took time off from his usual passion for representing Arabs who have murdered Jewish children. Feldman was present when Katz signed the court settlement.
          But a few days after that, Katz tried to back out of the settlement, probably under encouragement to do so by Pappe, who continues to insist the massacre really took place even though not a shred of evidence has ever been discovered by anyone that there had been one. (Even Arab journalists and reporters who had been present at the battle never claimed there had been any massacre.) The judge refused to allow Katz to back out of the deal. When Katz refused to publish the retraction, the vets successfully sued Katz to recover their costs. Pappe and the communists  then organized a campaign to try to raise cash to help out Katz with this.
          Katz and Pappe had simply invented the story.

          And then there are the Ben Gurion quotes that Pappe contrived and construed …

        • Blake says:

          @mayhem: If someone steals your home and land and offers you just some of it if you agree to accept them on your land is hardly fair or right. You do not need to have pin up boy to know that.

        • “Pappe’s student Teddy Katz claimed that a platoon of the Alexandroni brigade of the Hagana had in 1948 conducted a massacre of Arabs at the town of Tantura near Haifa in Israels 1948 war.”
          Well, duh! Only an unscrupulous, shameless hard line Zionist would deny a massacre took place in Tantura. But this is to be expected as most massacres have been denied until the archives have been open to historians.
          The Tantura massacre :

          “Tantura Massacre exposed: 21 eyewitness testimonies of war crimes against humanity”

          Muhammad Abu Hana, born in 1936, resident of the Yarmuk camp

          “We were awakened in the middle of the night by heavy gunfire. The women began to scream and run out of the houses, carrying their children, and gathered in several places in the village. I went out of the house too and began running around the streets to see what was going on. Suddenly a woman shouted to me: “Your uncle is wounded! Quick, bring some alcohol!” I saw my uncle bleeding heavily from the shoulder. Being young, I was unconscious of danger. I grabbed an empty bottle and ran to the dispensary nearby. Zahabiyya, the nurse, was there. She was one of the Christians of the village. She filled the bottle with alcohol and I ran back to my uncle. The women cleaned the wound and took my uncle to our house where he hid from the soldiers in the grain attic. But the soldiers saw the trail of blood and soon burst in, asking my grandfather where my uncle was. My grandfather said he didn’t know. They left but came back several times with the same question. At some point my uncle, who was in pain, asked for a cigarette and my grandmother gave him one. When the soldiers came back again the smell of the tobacco guided them to him. They took him away. On their way out they insulted my grandfather and called him a liar, and he answered back that anyone would protect his own son.
          My uncle survived thanks to the intervention of the mukhtar of the Jewish colony Zichron Yaacov. He had good relations with my grandfather, who was the mukhtar of Tantura. At 9 in the morning, the shooting stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up on the beach. They sorted them out, the women and children on one side, the men on the other. They searched the men and ordered them to keep their hands above their heads. Female soldiers searched the women and took all their jewelry, which they put in a soldier’s helmet. They didn’t give them back when they expelled us towards Fraydiss. During the entire operation, military boats were offshore.
          On the beach, the soldiers led groups of men away and you could her gunfire after each departure.
          Towards noon we were led on foot to an orchard to the east of the village and I saw a bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura, who emptied their cargo in a big pit. Then trucks arrived and women and children were loaded onto them and driven to Fraydiss. On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about.”
          link to palestineremembered.com

        • ColinWright says:

          Mayhem says: “…Refer to the Teddy Katz saga, where one of his students pushed the myth of a massacre that had occurred in Tantura near Haifa in 1948…”

          Even if true, this would be a bit like excusing the Nazis by demonstrating that the Katyn forest massacres were indeed carried out by the Communists, or that actually fewer than a thousand people were killed in the bombing of Rotterdam. That the Russians long insisted that the Katyn massacres had been carried out by the Nazis, and that for years, death tolls of up to 70,000 were cited for the bombing of Rotterdam does nothing to demonstrate that the Holocaust et al did not in fact happen.

          Worse, and in fact, even a cursory glance at the hits for ‘Tantura’ makes it clear that while many now deny that a massacre took place, many (including Ilan Pappe) continue to insist that it did. No one has been prepared to permit an excavation of the graves to see.

        • ColinWright says:

          Mayhem says: “Pappe admits what he writes is not about facts but ideology. If facts get in the way, make new facts up, is what he is saying.”

          I read your quote from Pappe. No, that is not what he is saying. He is admitting that he has an agenda, which is something of an improvement over those who pretend they do not have an agenda.

        • ColinWright says:

          Absent racism, Zionism is nonsensical.

          First, Jews have to be a ‘race’, else there is no one to ‘return’ to ‘Israel.’ Second, Jews have to be a ‘race’ whose rights supersede those of other ‘races,’ else there would be no justification for having expelled the erstwhile occupants of the land in question to create ‘Israel.’

        • Sumud says:

          More cut and paste hasbara from Israel’s Team Apartheid.

          For the blockquoted text, why don’t you name your source(s) Mayhem? It is because they aren’t actually reputable, just some bonehead spouting an opinion on the internet?

          I think so, refer to the first comment by ‘Dan Patton’ on this 2003 thread:

          link to warwithoutend.co.uk

          And the identical comment is on this Huff Post article from 2012, the handle in that case is ‘Kelso’:

          link to huffingtonpost.com

          You can see Mayhem has merely re-arranged a few paragraphs.

          You want to talk about facts Mayhem – how about you employ some reputable sources AND cite them properly?

        • ColinWright says:

          giladg: ” And at no point in the past 2,000 years has Jerusalem been as open and as free for all religions, as it is and has been under Israeli control.”

          I don’t think that’s true. For most of that time, Jerusalem has been ruled by Muslims, and generally they have tolerated both large Jewish and large Christian communities and encouraged pilgrimage by all faiths.

          Today, Muslims are being methodically driven out of the city, Christian pilgrims are frequently spat on, and Muslims are routinely barred.

        • Care you put up a link to to the article you’re quoting from, Mayhem? I feel like having a bit of a laugh today.

        • Ilan Pappe’s support of Katz’s opinion

          ‘Historian Ilan Pappé continues to stand by Katz and his thesis, and has challenged the Israeli veterans to take him to court because he has evidence that the massacre occurred.”
          link to en.wikipedia.org
          ——————
          Strange that no veteran came out to take him to court over the “allegations”!!
          Personally I’d go by what the 21 eyewitnesses had to say about the “events”. I believe those who have committed the massacre had good reasons to deny:
          For example:
          Muhammad lbrahim Abu’ Amr, born in 1935, resident of the Yarmuk camp

          “We had gathered at the center of the village, in the house of Hajj Mahmud al-Yahya. When the village fell and the soldiers entered, they herded us to the beach. On the way, near the house of Badran on the street leading to the mosque, I saw the bodies of seven young people from the village. A woman, ‘lzzat Ibrahim al-Hindi, started to scream, but a burst of gunfire silenced her for good. This woman was the mother of the martyr Abd al-Wahhab Hassan Abd al-Al, who had been killed during an attack with explosives by the Jews of Haifa at the end of 1947 (*).
          When they loaded us onto trucks, we saw bodies piled along the road like stacked wood. A woman recognized her nephew among the dead–it was Muhammad Awad Abu Idriss. She started to scream. She didn’t know yet that her three sons had met the same fate. Her sons, Ahmad Sulayman, Khalil, and Mustafa, had been killed, but we only learned this later, in exile. But the mother always refused to believe it, and insisted that they had escaped to Egypt and would come back to find her one day. She spent the rest of her life waiting for them.”
          link to palestineremembered.com

        • ColinWright says:

          gidadg: “My point is that Palestinians have no right to the city, especially not control of the holy sites. A nation that is barely 150 years old wants sovereignty over the holiest site of another religion that is thousands of years old…”

          You probably think this is an argument. One might as well claim that Italy has no claim to Rome, on the grounds that while Italy has only been a nation for one hundred and fifty years, Rome has been around for 2500 years. Greece can’t have Athens: Greece has been a nation for only one hundred and eighty years, Athens is pushing 3000.

          Etc. In the era of nationalism, the Palestinians have emerged as a nationality. Their land is Palestine. The major cities in that land include Jerusalem. It is theirs.

        • Hostage says:

          No spin can put aside the fact that Pappe is pushing a political agenda and using ‘history’ that he doctors to his advantage.

          LOL! The Encyclopaedia Judaica and personal diaries of the leaders of the Zionist movement record the fact that various Zionist officials, like Vladimir Jabotinsky, held official positions as Directors of Propaganda for the Zionist Organization, and its subsidiary organs from the moment the movement was founded, e.g. link to web.archive.org

          Hannah Arendt and other scholars have described the habit of Jewish, Zionist, and other historians to isolate the hostile elements in their opponents sources and to stress the series of catastrophes, expulsions, and massacres that have punctuated Jewish history just as armed and unarmed conflicts, war, famine, and pestilence have punctuated the history of Europe. She noted that Jewish historiography had a strong polemical and apologetical bias. See:
          *Jacob Katz, Exclusiveness and tolerance: studies in Jewish-Gentile relations in medieval and modern times, Behrman House, Inc, 1961; and *Zeev Sternhell, The Founding Myths of Israel, Princeton University Press, 1999;
          *Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, Croom Helm, 1987

          Zionist propagandist and various other Israeli officials specialized in distorting the facts and telling outright lies about things like the bombing of the SS Patria, the massacres carried out by Jewish militias and IDF units (e.g. Sharon’s notorious Unit 101), and botched espionage operations like the Lavon Affair. The details of those things can be verified from the published personal and political diaries of the second Prime Minister of Israel.

          At this late date, no amount of spin can salvage the founding myths of Israel from the legions of scholars who set-out to debunk them. The Zionist lies and legends were usually discredited with publicly available, third party verifiable, archival materials contained in various State and Zionist archives. The fact that the scholars usually did have opposing ideological views to those held by the various the Zionist bureaucrats that had served in the Organization’s propaganda organs is pretty unremarkable.

        • giladg says:

          Quote from the NYT today,
          ״What I respect about Memri is that it translates not only the ugly stuff but the courageous liberal, reformist Arab commentators as well.״ – Thomas Friedman

        • Hostage says:

          Afrikaner rule was all of 40 years. Do yourself a favor and try and understand what proportional means.

          What are you trying to establish? Sharon withdrew from Gaza and northern Samaria within 38 years of the start of the occupation.

        • Ellen says:

          Wikipedia is a tainted source, not reliable. You will have to work harder.

        • Ellen says:

          Mayhem, can you back up the name calling with the sources of your wrath?

        • tree says:

          Mayhem, I noticed you blockquoted from some source but failed to give a link. (Perhaps an oversight?) The only place I found those exact words was in the comment section of Leonard Fein’s blog at Huffington Post, by one “Kelso 998″, not exactly a known reliable source for anything, and in fact “Kelso 998″ gets several facts of the Katz saga wrong, which pretty much totally undermines his accusation that Pappe is a liar. If you are going to accuse someone of lying, its best not to lie yourself. link to huffingtonpost.com

          First off, Pappe was NOT Katz’ supervisor for his thesis, as this Kelso claims. Katz’ thesis supervisor was Kais Firro. Pappe only enters into the story later, because, after the controversy began, he defended Katz and his thesis, which had originally been submitted in 1998 and accepted by the University with a very high rating. Katz was granted his masters degree in 1999, and the controversy didn’t ensue until after Katz was interviewed in January 2000 for an article on Tantura in Maariv. This is when he was sued for libel.

          Kelso also lies by implying that Katz only interviewed Palestinians for his thesis when in fact he interviewed Israeli Jewish members of the Alexandroni Brigade as well. Kelso also claims that it took Katz a “few days” to change his mind and retract his apology. In reality, Katz, after signing the out of court settlement near midnight , WITHOUT his lawyer, Avigdor Feldmen, present (another lie Kelso told), attempted to retract the agreement in court the very next morning. Katz did not talk to Pappe in the intervening 10 or so hours before his attempted retraction, so Pappe could not have influenced him on this, again contrary to Kelso’s claim.

          The settlement Katz signed at midnight did not in fact have him “admit(ing) publicly he had lied” as Kelso also claimed. Instead:

          Katz agreed to an out-of-court settlement, signing an “apology” in which he admitted that what had happened in Tantura was not a “massacre” — this word was used in the apology and denying it seems to have been the entire point. The irony is that the real issue, whether civilians and unarmed ex-fighters were killed after the surrender, did not play a role. All that the veterans seem to have wanted was an apology for usage of the word “massacre”, a word which, it should be repeated, never appeared in Katz’s thesis.

          As to what actually happened in Tantura, again, contrary to Kelso’s adamant insistence that the Haganah “had been very nice about helping the civilians”, both Tom Segev and Benny Morris have confirmed Katz’ research.

          Finally, it is of some interest that, among several others, two senior writers on the period of the 1948 war have subsequently concluded that Katz’s claim about the events in Tantura is not without merit. Tom Segev concluded his article on the issue by saying that, while Katz may not have been without fault as a historian, the events he reported probably happened. Benny Morris decided that a significant number of Tantura villagers had been killed after the surrender of the place and concluded that they were unarmed or disarmed when killed.

          The judgment by Morris is particularly interesting, since he has a methodological objection to the admissibility of oral historical evidence. (When, earlier, he had been asked to come to Katz’s assistance, he refused because Katz had relied on oral testimony.) In an interview in the Jerusalem Report, Morris contended that, while he is not sure whether what happened in Tantura was actually a massacre, he was now convinced that atrocities, rapes and killings were committed by the troops in Tantura.

          link to monabaker.com

          So, Mayhem, now that its obvious that your source was guilty of numerous false statements, will you step up and admit you were wrong on this? Or is your own ideology negatively affecting your ability to acknowledge the numerous falsehoods you just laid on us?

        • giladg says:

          I am not afraid of the one-state solution Mooser. It is better than what is currently on offer. There are two groups who do fear this solution. The secular Israeli’s and the Palestinians themselves. The secular Israeli’s will understand that they will need to embrace their Jewish roots, some for the first time, and join a Jewish partly. And the Palestinians will need to contribute to the state, something most are currently not doing, both in Israel and in the WB and Gaza. Today they are so dependent on aid and little will change with a one-state solution. Sad but true. As the Palestinian numbers have been greatly exaggerated, a Jewish majority will continue for many years to come. So bring it on. Nothing like a good struggle. The only alternative to the one-state solution is one where the Palestinians agree to keep Jerusalem united under Israeli control but are granted special access to the holy sites. Imaginative ways are possible to grant this access to inure Muslim pride is not damaged too much. Muslim pride would need to absorb the shock of accepting that Jews are an equal party to this land as well. Will this ever happen? Probably not in my lifetime.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “And the Palestinians will need to contribute to the state, something most are currently not doing,”

          Yeah, well, living your life with the israeli Jews’ boot on your neck will do that…

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “A nation that is barely 150 years old wants sovereignty over the holiest site of another religion that is thousands of years old.”

          Well, your racist lie at least is better than that usually peddled by you gutter trawlers. Those pigs usually say the 1960s. Of course, the reality is that the Palestinian nation is thousands of years old. This is in stark contrast to the Israeli nation, which is only, at most, sixty-some years old. (and no, there is no Jewish nation. It is a religion, a people, even an ethnicity, but not a nation.)

          ” And at no point in the past 2,000 years has Jerusalem been as open and as free for all religions, as it is and has been under Israeli control. ”

          Bullshit. israel is, right now, engaged in the process of ethnically cleansing the eastern portion of al-Quds, in order to replace them with more Jews. And this is after decades of oppression and neglect, based on your fithly zionist ideology.

          “The city cannot be divided and anyone who understands the geography as well as the religious landmines, knows why.”

          Then the correct solution is that the city be made into a copus separatum, as the zionists agreed to.

        • giladg says:

          Jews are from this land and were on this land a long long time before Palestinians came along. The Romans did what they did and many Jews were forced to flee the land, but many remained. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in this land for over 2,500 thousand years. Jews practiced Judaism in this land long before Islam was born and the events since 1967 or even 1948 do not change the Jewish connection to this land, Only that Palestinians and their Muslim brothers would deny this connection. There is a battle under way over the land. It is contested territory as it was never controlled by the Palestinians themselves.
          There is nothing to compare to Afrikaner rule of South Africa.

        • giladg says:

          Mooser, what are talking about when you mention affirmative action? Are you so far done the road of big government looking after you? Are you not able to function on your own?
          In any case, if you want to compare the Palestinians to anyone, compare them to their brothers in other Arab lands. And what you will find is that they compare very well, especially with those countries without much oil. Israel owes them nothing. You can take your affirmative action somewhere else. If they want to live and work together with Israel, good. Let them begin to take personal responsibility. This will be a win-win situation. But the Palestinians have no intention of doing so as their leadership is as poor as one can find. The struggle with Israel brings in cash and support. Leading a country and supplying jobs is another story altogether. That’s when the real work, the hard work, begins.

        • ‘unbroken Jewish presence’ is relatively meaningless in the context in which you are using it unless one is brainwashed to thinking otherwise.

          Jews are from this land and were on this land a long long time before Palestinians came along.

          not all of them. you can’t haul out the collective shoe whenever it suits you. well, you can…but most people just don’t think on those terms.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Jews are from this land”

          Nonsense. Only some Jews are from that land. Shimon Peres is from Poland. The fascist Lieberman is from Moldova. The terrorist Baruch Goldstein was from Brooklyn.

          “and were on this land a long long time before Palestinians came along. ”

          LMAO. The very same people you claim as your ancestors are also the ancestors of the Palestinians.

          “The Romans did what they did and many Jews were forced to flee the land, but many remained.”

          Yes, and many became Christians and later, most became Muslims. Some remained Jews, too.

          “There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in this land for over 2,500 thousand years.”

          Yes, and for the vast majority of that time, they were a very small minority.

          ” Jews practiced Judaism in this land long before Islam was born and the events since 1967 or even 1948 do not change the Jewish connection to this land, ”

          Well, if you believe that the Judaism being practiced today is the same religion practed two thousand years ago in that land, you are an idiot.

          “Only that Palestinians and their Muslim brothers would deny this connection.”

          LOL. The connection which the overwhelming majority of Jews over the last two thousand years have had with the land of Palestine is that they liked ancient religious stories set there. Nothing more. When contrasted with the fact that the Palestinians lived in that land during the last two thousand years, the crime is in the likes of you denying the Palestinians their preeminant position with relation to their land.

          “There is a battle under way over the land.”

          Nonsense. It’s a colonial enterprise by a horde of foreign, mostly Europeans and their offspring to steal the land from its rightful owners. You’re Belgians in the Congo.

          “It is contested territory as it was never controlled by the Palestinians themselves.”

          Yes, it was. They lived there day to day. The fact that they never had an independant polity is nothing but post-hoc racist fantasy. If we are to go by the past, then the fact that it was mostly controlled through it’s history by Muslims and Christians should mean that a Jewish government has no right to exist there. (But, of course, your arguments aren’t based on principle but your evil racist ideology, so I doubt you can even understand the argument.)

          “There is nothing to compare to Afrikaner rule of South Africa.”

          Only to the extent that it’s worse.

        • giladg says:

          If anyone has a claim to Jerusalem, that out-dates that of the Jewish people, then let them come forward and make that claim. The land was stolen from the Jewish people, by the Romans. Stolen goods, and in this case. stolen land, needs to be returned to their rightful owners. And as terror and war has been waged on the rightful owners, the case for Israel only gets stronger. Now go do the right thing.

        • giladg says:

          Jews have always lived in the land, even after the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple, in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount, under the site of what is now the Dome of the Rock. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in the land for over 2,500 years and before Jews were Jews, the connection goes back the Abraham, 4,000 years ago.

        • seafoid says:

          Potato dumplings would seem to indicate your theory is flawed, gilad.

          The Afrikaners were deluded just as you are. Chosenness is a real curse .

        • American says:

          “So bring it on. “…gilad

          O.K….lol

        • MHughes976 says:

          There’s also an unbroken non-Jewish presence existing for far longer, though something depends on how you define ‘Jewish’ and ‘Palestinian’, how you evaluate the Bible record historically and how the idea of divine donation that is so important in the Biblical record is evaluated for our moral purposes. Genesis 20 says that the Philistines/Palestinians were there even before Abraham. Of course you’re right that it’s meaningless in any event to claim political rights in any territory simply on the grounds that some ancestors lived there.

        • Mayhem says:

          @tree, I am happy to step up to the plate and hit you for six.

          First of all nothing you have said refutes the fact that Pappe was a mentor and supporter of Teddy Katz and his notorious hoax. The real inspiration for Katz’s thesis was Pappe, whom the author warmly acknowledged in the opening of his work.

          Nothing you have said negates the fact that the Tantura massacre was a complete hoax.

          You claim Katz interviewed Israeli Jewish members of the Alexandroni Brigade as well as Palestinians. According to your reference he supposedly interviewed Israelis as well as Palestinians, but there is nothing to substantiate your assertion.

          Refer http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=981  from which I quote:

          The trial took place in Tel Aviv in December 2000. After two days’ cross-examination in court, Katz signed a statement that nullified his research. “After checking and re-checking the evidence,” it read, “it is clear to me now, beyond any doubt, that there is no basis whatsoever for the allegation that the Alexandroni Brigade, or any other fighting unit of the Jewish forces, committed killing of people in Tantura after the village surrendered.”

          No wonder Katz admitted this. The trial had abundantly exposed the flimsiness or nonexistence of his evidence. To cite just two examples, Katz had quoted a surviving Arab villager, Abu Fahmi ‘Ali Daqnash, as saying that after the surrender of the village, Israeli soldiers had “often shot, killed, and wounded people.” And he had quoted another villager, Abu Riyaj Muhammad Hatzadiyah, as saying, “I know that they shot young people after the fighting and that there was a big slaughter in the village, even after everyone surrendered and stopped fighting.” No such statements appeared, however, in either Katz’s recordings or his notes of his interviews with the two men.

          Actually former Palestinian Authority minister Feisal Husseini paid $8,000 for the legal defense of historian Teddy Katz,

          Furthermore I would question the remarks you have attributed to Benny Morris.

          BTW there is quite a compendium of stuff on this whole saga if anyone is interested – refer http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/

          The Benny Morris article I read from there (link to ee.bgu.ac.il ) is hardly conclusive about what may have happened at Tantura as hard documentary evidence is scant.

          What Morris contended was 

          the total of fewer than 800 Arabs killed in war crimes was ‘peanuts’ in comparison to atrocities committed by other people, even in recent decades, in recent civil wars:

          “When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire one percent of our population, you find that we behaved well.”  

          Finally tree I have no problems with my ideology – I certainly don’t let it steamroller the facts, which stand as evidence in this case of another lie in support of the Palestinian narrative.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “the connection goes back the Abraham, 4,000 years ago.”

          LOL. Abraham is no more real than Scooby Doo or Darth Vader. It’s like basing a claim to the city of London because of something Peter Pan did.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “If anyone has a claim to Jerusalem, that out-dates that of the Jewish people”

          The problem with your position, of course, is that “the Jewish people” is not an entity capable of making a claim for anything, let along a 2000 year old one.

          “The land was stolen from the Jewish people, by the Romans. ”

          No, it wasn’t. The Romans conquered them. The land was then part of the Great Roman Empire. You should consider yourselves lucky that the land was once deemed worthy to for the site of Aelia Capitolina.

          “Stolen goods, and in this case. stolen land, needs to be returned to their rightful owners.”

          Then the Jews are entitlted to none of it, because even in your story book, the Jews conquered the land from the Canaanites. So if the Romans didn’t get good title by conquest, then neither did the Jews.

          “And as terror and war has been waged on the rightful owners,”

          Yes, you israelis have been waging terror and war on the rightful owners — the Palesinians.

          “Now go do the right thing.”

          The “right thing” would be for all the Jewish squatters from Russia, Europe and America to go back to ther homelands of Russia, Europe and America, respectively, and, in place of the zio-supremacist abomination in place now, to have a single state from the Joran to the Med where every person will get full human, political and civil rights and everyone gets a vote. What you want is the wrong thing where you get to keep Palestinian children under your boot.

        • giladg says:

          It is that connection, context or not, that gives Jews the moral right to live in the land now called Israel.
          If there is this connection, then there is no middle ground. You either ignore it completely or you embrace it, you study it, and you plonk it on the table when it comes to negotiations with the Palestinians. It is heavy in historical significance and it is certainly relevant. If you say it is not relevant, then Jews must pack up and leave the land altogether. Not Tel-Aviv, not Haifa and not Jerusalem. Uganda maybe? It is or it is not. Make up your mind Annie.

        • seanmcbride says:

          giladg,

          You are so mired down and immersed in cult thought patterns that you have no idea about how you sound to cult outsiders.

          This is the problem with messianic ethno-religious nationalists: they are cognitively impaired by extreme narcissism and solipsism. They live in a bubble, disconnected from the rest of the human race. They say irrational things and think they are making sense.

          You need an intervention.

        • Citizen says:

          @ giladg

          Affirmative action? The theft of land by Jews at the expense of the unrepresented locals, which was legitimized by the UN (US & another Western state applying economic pressure to the swing micro states) was the biggest case of affirmative action in all of human history. Biggest iron of “do good” history, considering the locals never had Jews as slaves or anything remotely so, and were innocent of what happened to Jews in Europe–the exiled Mufti was not the elected leader of Palestinian Arabs.
          And the ironic affirmative action continues unabated: What country is more on the American dole than Israel? And this even when Israel’s credit rating is better than America’s (thanks to America’s underwriting Israeli debt & paying for that by borrowing from China, and now, mostly by the Fed Reserve printing dollars out of thin air).

          “Are you so far done the road of big government looking after you? Are you not able to function on your own?”

          Yes, if your state name is Israel.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “It is that connection, context or not, that gives Jews the moral right to live in the land now called Israel.”

          There is no such moral right.

        • giladg says:

          Israeli settlements sit on 4% of the West Bank. So what you are telling us is that if the Palestinians had the extra 4% since 1967 that their plight would have been completely different and they would be sitting pretty now with a strong export economy? Yeh right.

        • Hostage says:

          Imaginative ways are possible to grant this access to inure Muslim pride is not damaged too much. Muslim pride would need to absorb the shock of accepting that Jews are an equal party to this land as well. Will this ever happen?

          Nope. See the “Greek Inscription, Found on Site of Temple Area, Forbidding Gentiles to Enter Within the Inner Temple Wall” in the Jewish Encyclopedia: link to jewishencyclopedia.com

          Discovered by Clermont-Ganneau in 1871. It reads:

          No Foreigner
          Is To Go Beyond The Balustrade
          And The Plaza Of The Temple Zone
          Whoever Is Caught Doing So
          Will Have Himself To Blame
          For His Death
          Which Will Follow

          Everyone knows that the real troglodytes in the “Temple faithful movement” won’t be satisfied until they can restore that authentic practice and animal sacrifice to Judaism. They will waste no time building an inner wall around their so-called “holy place” to keep the gentiles out on pain of death – just like “the good old days” – once they become the majority. Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education. The rest of these ultra religious figures are just nut cases who want to start a war. They’ll use “Talmudic rituals” or any other convenient excuse:

          PNN

          Thursday 6th September, 30 members of Israel’s intelligence community headed by Likud member, Moshe Feiglin, and groups of settlers broke into al-Aqsa mosque since early hours of the morning.

          Al Aqsa Institute said in a press release that Moshe Feiglin, escorted by settlers broke into the mosque to perform Talmudic rituals, under the protection of Israeli forces.

          link to english.pnn.ps

        • Hostage says:

          Jews are from this land and were on this land a long long time before Palestinians came along.

          That’s platitudinous and a misstatement of the facts. According to the Jewish legends, the Patriarch Abraham wasn’t indigenous to Palestine. The Palestinians are descended from the indigenous peoples, including the Jews who took up residence in Palestine. The notion that you have a right to seize a land because your distant relatives were “from” that place is utter nonsense.

        • Bing Bong says:

          “The notion that you have a right to seize a land because your distant relatives were “from” that place is utter nonsense.”

          So at some time in the future (or even now) a ROR for the Palestinians is going to naturally run (or has already run) out?

        • Bing Bong says:

          “Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education.”

          No they’re not.

        • giladg says:

          Wrong on two acounts Colin. Under Ottoman rule, Jews were prevented from praying anywhere near the Temple Mount, including the then called Wailing Wall. And secondly, the Arab population of Jerusalem is actually growing.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Israeli settlements sit on 4% of the West Bank. ”

          This isn’t only about that 4%. It’s about all the additional land that goes with it, and the land that the pig bastard gun men of the zionist terror forces control.

        • ColinWright says:

          Woody Tanaka: ““Israeli settlements sit on 4% of the West Bank. ”

          This isn’t only about that 4%. It’s about all the additional land that goes with it, and the land that the pig bastard gun men of the zionist terror forces control.”

          ‘Pig bastard gun men?’ My…

          Anyway, it’s the ‘Stand on Zanzibar’ argument, to some extent. The science fiction novel of that title dealt with a wildly overpopulated future world where the argument was that the world wasn’t overcrowded — in fact, all twenty billion or whatever people could stand on the island of Zanzibar.

          Similarly, the actual housing tracts of the settlements may include ‘only’ 4% of the territory of the West Bank — but I’m sure if you add in the areas around them where Palestinians can’t go, that figure jumps, and if you add in the area in which Palestinians are liable to attack by settlers, it jumps still further.

          Finally, of course, the whole argument leaves aside the point that the Zionists have already helped themselves to 78% of Palestine. Just how little of it do they intend to leave to the Palestinians?

        • ColinWright says:

          Hophmi says: “Wrong on two acounts Colin. Under Ottoman rule, Jews were prevented from praying anywhere near the Temple Mount, including the then called Wailing Wall…”

          You need to come up with better lies, Hophmi.

          link to legrandcirque.tumblr.com

          The caption on that photo reads, ‘Jews praying at the Wailing Wall, Jerusalem, Palestine, July 1900.’

        • ColinWright says:

          Hostage says: “The notion that you have a right to seize a land because your distant relatives were “from” that place is utter nonsense.”

          It doesn’t exactly bolster the argument when it can be demonstrated that most of your ancestors aren’t even from there in the first place. It’s as if I attempted to claim an Aegean Island on the grounds that I was Greek — and then it emerged that I wasn’t even Greek.

        • “Jews have always lived in the land”
          For most of 2000 years the number never exceeded 1% of the population.

        • “If anyone has a claim to Jerusalem, that out-dates that of the Jewish people, then let them come forward and make that claim. The land was stolen from the Jewish people, by the Romans. Stolen goods, and in this case. stolen land, needs to be returned to their rightful owners. And as terror and war has been waged on the rightful owners, the case for Israel only gets stronger. Now go do the right thing.”

          Right wing revisionist crackpottery. Would be laughable if it wasn’t mainstream among Israeli decision makers and their sock-puppets in the US.

        • The Tantura massacre is well documented:

          Tantura Massacre exposed: 21 eyewitness testimonies of war crimes against humanity
          link to palestineremembered.com

          I’d rather listen and believe those who survived than those war criminals and their apologists like Morris and Mayhem living in denial.

        • Additional evidence that Hophmi is making things up:
          Here are some pictorial evidence:
          Jews praying at the Wailing Wall

          link to luirig.altervista.org

          Jews praying at the Wailing Wall
          link to pictorialgems.com

          And here:
          link to gilai.com

          And here:
          Jewish men and women praying at the Wailing Wall
          July 1, 1912
          link to 100yearsagotoday.wordpress.com

          And here:
          The Jews at the Wailing Wall
          link to commons.wikimedia.org

        • More photos of Jews praying at the Wailing Wall under Ottoman rule ( 1875) but Hophmi would us believe it’s not true
          http://www.gilai.com/product_958/Jerusalem.-Mur-o%C3%B9-les-Juifs-vont-pleurer—Bonfils-circa-1875

          And in 1900
          link to israeldailypicture.com

        • RoHa says:

          giladg says “Jews have always lived in the land”

          But they were not Polish, Russian, or American Jews. They were Palestinian Jews.

        • Hostage says:

          The Benny Morris article I read from there (link to ee.bgu.ac.il ) is hardly conclusive about what may have happened at Tantura as hard documentary evidence is scant. . . . What Morris contended was

          the total of fewer than 800 Arabs killed in war crimes was ‘peanuts’

          Morris actually cited undisputed evidence from the Alexandroni veterans themselves that atrocities, including summary executions of unarmed prisoners were committed:

          But atrocities — war crimes, in modem parlance — appear to have occurred. Many of the Tantura dead, even if they only numbered 70-75 as Alexandroni veterans would have it, were unarmed civilians or disarmed militiamen. A number of Alexandroni veterans said as much in undisputed interviews. We have Makovsky’s diary and Micha Vitkon’s statements, both to Katz and to Gilal, that there was execution of prisoners by B Company’s commander, Kami, and that there had been “killing.’

          At this point, any “undisputed” evidence of atrocities from the veterans can’t be fairly described as inconclusive. You and Ms Wurmzer of the Hudson Institute offer a lame, cherry-picked analysis of your own sources.

        • Hostage says:

          So at some time in the future (or even now) a ROR for the Palestinians is going to naturally run (or has already run) out?

          I’ve already discussed cases where that happened, e.g. Cyprus, although there are justicable differences. In the case of Israel, the UN organization has taken the position that Israel agreed to allow the refugees to return or to pay compensation. If the UN recognizes the state of Palestine this year, then the question of return to Palestine wouldn’t be subject to the negotiations with Israel. That wouldn’t relieve Israel of responsibility to pay compensation to refugees, their heirs, or assignees. Descendants of the refugees, who are registered as refugees with the UNRWA, would have the legal right to return to their country of nationality in any event.

        • Hostage says:

          “Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education.” . . . No they’re not.

          Here’s a recent article from Haaretz on that topic:

          In the first grades now – among those defined in Israel as Jews – a majority is once again being consolidated. It’s no longer “only” Jerusalem, it’s all of Israel. The country is funding and subsidizing religious or Haredi education for most children. And not moderate religious education. Among the vast majority, boys and girls study in separate classes, never see a secular person, and receive a racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal education, whose inevitable result is the violent events in Zion Square and the Latrun Monastery.

          See “The final moment before the liberal population leaves Israel”: The moment the public comprehends the irreversible nature of the process, the outcome will be clear and enlightened population will leave Israel and move west, as was the case with Jerusalem. — link to haaretz.com

        • talknic says:

          giladg September 20, 2012 at 7:04 pm

          “Under Ottoman rule, Jews were prevented from praying anywhere near the Temple Mount…”

          Oh for goodness sake stop with the twaddle. BTW you can shove ye olde tired Hasbara waffle about Jordan forbidding Jews to pray in Jerusalem up an appropriate aperture too. Israel and Jordan were at war over what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of Palestine.

          Countries at war forbid their citizens from entering the territory of hostile states and citizens from hostile states from entering their territory or territory under their military control. In 1948 Israel forbade Israeli citizens and residents from entering the territory of hostile states (still in force today). It’s common practice to all countries at war. Its normal behaviour. Australia, the US, the UK interred or deported people they considered might be enemies in WWII

        • Bing Bong says:

          He is known for making facts up.

          link to camera.org

          link to camera.org

          link to camera.org

          And the subsequent discussion here which MW and Hostage played an abetting role to further distort translation.

          link to mondoweiss.net

        • talknic says:

          Correct, that has been the Israeli M/O from the start. Do you really think the Zionist Colonial project were/are unaware of the Law and conventions surrounding RoR or any other Law or convention they have completely ignored?

          Some of the arguments they present in order to justify their ghastly policies and demands really do beggar belief. The moronic notion that there must be a Peace Agreement before any RoR is a classic example of Hasbara style stupidity 101…

          A) RoR is an individuals right to decide to return or accept compensation, be they Jewish, Arab, Inuit. In order to return, they must, as individuals agree to live in peace INSIDE the country of return, as citizens of the country of return. (The country of return has the final right to justly veto on an individual basis).

          B) A peace agreement however, is with a neighbouring entity to live alongside in reciprocal peace, with it’s citizens, who have not returned to what is now Israel. Those who have been granted RoR would be ISRAELI CITIZENS! Not Palestinian citizens. It just doesn’t add up! link to wp.me

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Pig bastard gun men?”

          Shrug. What else would you call the uniformed filth that carry out the occupation?

          “Anyway, it’s the ‘Stand on Zanzibar’ argument, to some extent.”

          I agree. The 4% number is so clearly a lie, as it omits all the other land that has been taken from the Palestinians that it does nothing more than demonstrate the irrationality and bad faith of the person asserting it.

        • giladg says:

          So Colin, are you telling us that from this one photo you have determined that the Turks did not prevent Jews from praying in Jerusalem?

        • giladg says:

          Well you seanmcbride are obviously not affiliated to anything, an outsider as some may describe. And usually the outsiders allow the hate to bottle up inside. Tell me I am wrong. Tell us how much you hate Jews mr. mcbride. Go on, let it out. It is the outsiders who are disconnected. You have it the wrong way round.

        • seanmcbride says:

          giladg,

          Every abusive and abrasive word that comes out of your mouth is guaranteed to turn most people off and to further marginalize and self-ghettoize your ethnic nationalist cult. What would motivate any cult outsider to support or make sacrifices for your narrow and selfish political program?

          Most Americans and Europeans oppose ethnic and religious nationalism for themselves and for the world in general. Israelis and pro-Israel activists are increasingly out of sync with the modern Western democratic world.

          That is why so many Israelis are fleeing Israel:

          “Jewish migration from Israel to Europe on the rise”
          link to middleeastmonitor.com

          Almost 1 million Israelis left the state to live in the US, Britain, Australia and Germany in 2011. The figure was revealed by researcher Michel Sharon, who added that they end up having a prosperous life in their new countries.

          The details of Israel’s migration statistics were given in a television programme on Israeli Channel 2. Migrants to Canada told the programme that life there is “more peaceful” than in Israel. Around 2,500 Israelis migrate to Canada every year; one of the reasons given is that there is no talk of death and destruction there. This is causing the Israeli government some concern.

          According to Israeli newspaper Maariv, the state is losing out on the migration stakes. The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics said that the number of migrants to Israel in 2010 was 18,129, the lowest since 1988.

          Maariv also reported that 70 per cent of American Jews have not been to Israel and do not even intend to visit the country which is given vast amounts of tax dollars by the US government. More than 50 per cent of those Jews are married to non-Jews and 50 per cent do not care if Israel ceases to exist. For this reason, Israel’s government is preparing an initiative which aims to reinforce the relationship of Jews around the world with Israel.

          Of the 87 per cent of Jewish youth from the countries of the former Soviet Union who want to migrate, only 36 per cent would be willing to go to Israel, claimed Maariv. The newspaper said that Jews from Eastern Europe are no longer regarded as potential immigrants by the Israeli government “in reserve” to counter the demographic reality of a growing Palestinian population. US Jews are not expected to fill the migration gap.

          Most Jews around the world are interested in getting along with their non-Jewish neighbors — not in getting into ugly, divisive and self-destructive arguments with them over Israel and Jewish nationalism.

          You have positioned yourself on the wrong side of history, giladg — much like Southern Confederates, white South Africans, Nazis, Italian Fascists, Communists, etc. Wake up before it is too late.

        • Blake says:

          @giladg: Instead of criticizing PW just don’t come on here if you do not like this site. There are so many racist/bigoted sites for you to visit and show your ignorance and bigotry on. Many of my comments do not see the light of day because (I am assuming) I am far more critical of “Israel” than Mondoweiss permits, but I refuse to whine about that as it is his site after all.

        • Philip Weiss says:

          i dont know blake, i believe giladg is free to ask me why i dont speak about the holiness to jews of the temple mount. that’s one reason i believe in the internationalization of jerusalem!

        • tree says:

          Finally tree I have no problems with my ideology – I certainly don’t let it steamroller the facts…

          You are wrong, Mayhem. You are in deep denial about the gross negative effect of your ideology on your ability to recogize facts and its illustrated perfectly in your response above.

          You, Mayhem, said:
          You(tree) claim Katz interviewed Israeli Jewish members of the Alexandroni Brigade as well as Palestinians. According to your reference he supposedly interviewed Israelis as well as Palestinians, but there is nothing to substantiate your assertion.

          And yet you linked to the very piece penned by Benny Morris that my reference cited. You clearly either didn’t read what Benny Morris said, or you so firmly had your head up your ideological @ss that you missed the numerous references Morris made to the interviews with the former Alexandroni Brigade members that Katz conducted. Here’s some examples from the Morris piece you cited but apparently missed:

          “He (Katz) scoured the archives and conducted over 130 interviews with refugees and soldiers, taping many but not all.”…”Katz quotes Alexandroni veteran Micha Vitkon…”…”Some Jewish witnesses, according to Katz, recalled a different order of killing.”… “Katz quotes Alexandroni engineers officer Shlomo Ambar as saying…”

          Every serious news article on the Katz imbroglio refers to the fact that Katz interviewed both Palestinians who had been in Tantura at the time, AND former Alexandroni Brigade members. The very fact that this appears to be some bit of new news to you despite your two posts on the subject absolutely shows that your ideology is interfering with your ability to accept obvious undisputed facts.

          Another example of this was again illustrated by your Morris link. You consciously chose only to quote from the lead-in to the article, in which Morris was quoted as minimizing all atrocities committed by Haganah forces in the 1948 war and justifying the extensive ethnic cleansing that took place then (curiously highlighting the fact that Morris, and you, also have “an agenda”).

          You claim that
          Furthermore I would question the remarks you have attributed to Benny Morris.

          but as Hostage has pointed out above, from that very same article you cited, Morris said this:

          But atrocities — war crimes, in modem parlance — appear to have occurred. Many of the Tantura dead, even if they only numbered 70-75 as Alexandroni veterans would have it, were unarmed civilians or disarmed militiamen. A number of Alexandroni veterans said as much in undisputed interviews. We have Makovsky’s diary and Micha Vitkon’s statements, both to Katz and to Gilal, that there was execution of prisoners by B Company’s commander, Kami, and that there had been “killing.’

          You managed to read Morris and totally miss that Katz’ thesis included interviews with Alexandroni veterans, and that Morris concluded that “atrocities -war crimes, in modern parlance, appear to have happened” in Tantura. Your ideology got in the way of your reading comprehension. I suggest you re-read the Morris article and try for comprehension rather than denial this time.

          And on a trivial but explanatory cultual note, “tree, I am happy to step up to the plate and hit you for six” makes no sense. “Step up to the plate” is a baseball term, and the best you can score at the plate is a grand slam home-run ( if the bases are loaded) which is only worth 4 points, not six. You just hit a pop-up fly for an easy out.

          And, as a side note, for anyone interested in reading the original Maariv January 200 report on Katz thesis, translated into English, it is available here:

          link to cosmos.ucc.ie

        • Hostage says:

          So Colin, are you telling us that from this one photo you have determined that the Turks did not prevent Jews from praying in Jerusalem?

          Digitized photos of Jews praying or loitering around the “Wailing Wall” are available online via the Library of Congress. There are even Jewish web sites that have pages devoted to the subject, e.g. link to israeldailypicture.com

        • Hostage says:

          He is known for making facts up.

          link to camera.org

          link to camera.org

          link to camera.org

          And the subsequent discussion here which MW and Hostage played an abetting role to further distort translation.

          link to mondoweiss.net

          Actually Ben Gurion is rather infamous for destroying archival evidence and for personal dishonesty in connection with various cover-ups, like the one that destroyed his political career. CAMERA has a reputation for being cavalier with the facts, distributing false information, and deliberate distortions too, e.g. link to momentmag.com

          Here are the facts that we know:
          *Researchers relied upon transcripts prepared by Ben Gurion for many years before they were given access to the original letters;
          *The redactions were made before the letters were deposited in the Ben Gurion archives.
          *The Ben Gurion estate owns the copyrights to both versions of the “Letter to Amoz”, and Ben Gurion prepared both for publication.
          *The Ben Gurion regime did physically displace thousands of the non-Jewish inhabitants and used martial law to prevent them from returning to their homes and villages. In many instances Jewish refugees from Europe were settled in their place.

          We get it. You’d like to distract attention away from what happened.

        • ColinWright says:

          gildadg says: ” So Colin, are you telling us that from this one photo you have determined that the Turks did not prevent Jews from praying in Jerusalem?”

          I’ve been through this before. You said: “Under Ottoman rule, Jews were prevented from praying anywhere near the Temple Mount”

          That is clearly a false statement. The Jews in the picture were obviously not prevented from praying at the Wailing Wall. They are praying at it. Ergo, those Jews at least were not prevented.

        • Hostage says:

          “Are you so far done the road of big government looking after you? . . . Yes, if your state name is Israel.

          LOL! Of course the Israelis should be added to Romney’s 47 percent! Obama should take Netahyahu’s advice and draw a red line through Israel’s foreign military assistance budget.

        • ColinWright says:

          Philip Weiss says: “i dont know blake, i believe giladg is free to ask me why i dont speak about the holiness to jews of the temple mount. that’s one reason i believe in the internationalization of jerusalem!”

          Internationalizing it probably would be the only perfectly just solution.

          …curiously, you can see a move in that direction late in the Crusades.

          Frederick II managed to get his excommunication lifted in exchange for agreeing to go on Crusade.

          To the Pope’s considerable chagrin, he fulfilled the vow by assembling a rather small and shabbily equipped force, sailing off to Palestine, apparently slipping the Mameluke Sultan an enormous bribe, and obtaining the right to occupy Jerusalem for ten years with the proviso that the walls would be razed first and not rebuilt.

          Hey, he’d regained Jerusalem. And to some extent, it had been at least temporarily internationalized. Christendom held it — for as long as the Muslims chose to let them.

        • talknic says:

          Wake up before it is too late.

          Waking up from Ziocaine means facing up to reality. Starting again. Being ostracized and stabbed in the back by the people who were your friends and associates only as long as you remained addicted. giladg’s life will fall apart.

        • Bing Bong says:

          Your quote from that opinion article isn’t true. If it isn’t an outright lie the author probably means that a vast majority of ultra orthodox schools are not practising a moderate religious education. I don’t know about ultra orthodox schools but I do know that among non orthodox schools it isn’t the case that “the vast majority, boys and girls study in separate classes, never see a secular person, and receive a racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal education”. It’s an outright lie.

          link to haaretz.com

          “The Changing Face of Israel” was written by Richard Cincotta, a consulting demographer to the U.S. government’s National Intelligence Council, and Eric Kaufmann of the University of London.”

          “In 1960, the [Central Bureau of Statistics] reported that just 15 percent of students in the Israeli primary-school system were either Israeli Arabs or haredim. Now, about 46 percent are. Around 2020, the majority of primary-school students will likely be composed of children from those two groups, each segregated into its own segment of the school system.” The authors note that the average number of births for each ultra-Orthodox woman is seven, and the average number for Arab Muslim women is 3.9.”

          “Prof. Sergio Della Pergola of Hebrew University, an expert in contemporary Jewish demography, said he was familiar with the figures cited in the Foreign Policy article but was not convinced that the article’s predictions would prove accurate.

          It remains unclear whether ultra-Orthodox fertility trends will remain steady in the coming years, he said, since much depends on state funding for child allowances.”

          I believe there are moves by the government to avoid this demographic change.

          link to ynetnews.com

          “A report recently put together by Nachum Blass from the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies…..The two sectors [ulta orth and Arab) together currently make up about half of all nursery school children in Israel.”

          Israeli Education Policy: How to Move Ahead in Reform, OECD Economics Department Working Papers, No. 781

          “Most remarkable is the rise in Ultra-orthodox education; roughly one quarter of Hebrew-speaking children (or a little under one-fifth of the total population) now start primary school in this stream.”

          One fifth is not a “vast majority”

        • Sumud says:

          giladg – read and learn. You’re wrong.

          Western Wall / History / Ottoman period 1517–1917

          When are you going to wake up and understand that you’ve been lied to – a lot – by zionists…?

        • MHughes976 says:

          If we believe the Abraham story we should note that the Philistines were there first, that they treated Abraham well, that he treated them rather badly and that he promised (Genesis 21, 23) an eternal oath that their kindness would be repaid. I think that this story is influenced by the situation in the Second Temple period but it’s still there in the sacred text.
          But would anyone say that everyone has a right to share in sovereignty over a territory because some of his/her ancestors lived there? If you accept a social contract elsewhere you abrogate (unless by special agreement with all concerned, as with dual citizens) your former rights. If you live, work and pay taxes in a territory you do have rights there, as Locke demonstrated centuries ago, with a possible exception for those who regard themselves as ‘denizens’ with a deeper loyalty to a foreign state.

      • Annie -then there is the Palestine papers that came out in Guardian news paper last year showing feckless Palestine leaders were genuflecting everyday to get sometihng from Israel to show that they were trying while agreeing to every demads from Israel ,only to be rebuffed and ridiculed and assailed by Israeli elders. You can never satisfy a beast.

    • eljay says:

      giladgeee’s proof that Palestinians are not interested in peace is a 1994 “salami speech” by a guy who’s been dead for almost 8 years.

      My proof that Israelis are not interested in peace is the supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel’s 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

      I leave it up to you, dear reader, to decide which party is truly “not interested in peace”.

      • ColinWright says:

        What one needs to realize is that Israel defines peace as ‘unconditional surrender.’

        Then, when the Palestinians don’t agree, of course it’s indeed true that they ‘don’t want peace.’

        …but really, it’s all a good thing. A reasonable Israel could bamboozle the Palestinians into terms that would prolong all this indefinitely. As it is, a completely unreasonable Israel should self-destruct completely within a decade or two.

        …and Palestine will be free. To make of their freedom what they will. And whatever that is, it’ll have the overwhelming advantage that it won’t be my affair.

        • seafoid says:

          The funny thing is that Israel has never had peace. The Zionist people of Israel have always lived in fear. That is the price of Sparta. Israel is a traumatised space.

        • Philip Weiss says:

          I agree. I think there’s plenty of misery there. And I always wonder why mothers and fathers dont stand up and say, Let us reconstitute this place before our children have to go into uniform. It’s really a bad advertisement for the human species, this blindness

        • ColinWright says:

          Israel cannot afford peace.

          Her people are not actually a people, and the only way to maintain internal unity is to maintain an external enemy. This is why she has attacked every single one of her neighbors over the years. It’s why she maintains the Palestinians as a subject population that is continuously oppressed and kept aware of its oppression. She has to have these enemies.

          This was never more clearly illustrated than a year ago, when rising social protest resulted in a ‘terrorist attack’ that produced a suspiciously smooth response and an immediate rush by all parties to the ramparts.

          It worked beautifully. What do you think is behind all this fuss about Iran?

        • giladg says:

          There is no more honorable thing than standing up and defending your family, especially when the truth is on your side. Israel is far from perfect but yes, the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle. Where is your sense of honor Philip? What have you ever defended that is yours Philip? Flower power peace man or should I say Cheech, or is it Chong?

        • Citizen says:

          Yeah, Phil, a regular “light to the world” by the nation of priests(rabbis),” aka in Arabic terms, “the people of the book.”

          So maybe we are all slowly, much more slowly than say, Hannah Arendt, beginning to realize how close we are to Goldhagen’s view of the Germans? Or is Goldhagen’s view of the Germans itself, also what Arendt was horrified by?

        • Citizen says:

          @ ColinWright

          So, you think they want to become isolated dots like the WASPs are now? If you read the now classical American Jewish novelists, you will see just how powerful the WASPs were, both in fact and on the ambitious mind of the American Jews once upon a time in America when there was civil societal discrimination against Jews–this unraveled during WW2 and was made short work of ASAP thereafter. Gee, ask Gregory Peck. Or Phil, who heard the old stories from his folk family when their stories were no longer the lay of the land.

          Now all of WASP England is subservient to lone superpower America’s AIPAC-controlled Jews, and those even more rabidly Zionist, such as Sheldon Adelson. And, all in all, America’s WASPs are left with nothing but fat, sweaty Hagee and antiseptic, stiff Mittens–and they have to share them, and Hagee envisions the death of most Jews in the final days, and Mittens baptizes Jews after they are dead.

        • Philip Weiss says:

          is my tribe my family? you didnt come after my daddy did you?

        • ColinWright says:

          gidadg says: ‘yes, the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle. ‘

          ! What element of the Zionist justification and of Zionist history is not a lie?

          Please, list them. I really want to hear.

        • ColinWright says:

          giladg: “…Israel is far from perfect but yes, the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle. Where is your sense of honor Philip? What have you ever defended that is yours Philip?…”

          So if Philip were a good Jew, he would defend Israel? Have I got that right?

          Now what if — purely hypothetically — Israel was profoundly evil? Should Philip still defend it?

        • giladg says:

          Answer the question posed to you Philip!

        • giladg says:

          In answer to Colin : Historic homeland of the Jewish people long before anyone else currently contesting it came along. However if you are asking such an obviously easy question to answer you are probably trying to set me up for sometHing. Go on, what is it?

        • Answer the question posed to you Philip!

          where’s your honor gilad? supporting ethnic cleansing? you’ve got a lot of nerve insisting on a response if you ask me.

        • ColinWright says:

          giladg: “Answer the question posed to you Philip!”

          …maybe this is a joke, and I’m just not getting it.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Answer the question posed to you Philip!’

          He did, you dimwit.

        • ColinWright says:

          gildadg: “In answer to Colin : Historic homeland of the Jewish people long before anyone else currently contesting it came along.”

          You know — or should know — that’s the purest nonsense. The Palestinians who were there in Biblical times — among whom were the Jews — are still there, and are still Palestinians. ‘The Jews’ — as you understand the term — have no defensible claim to Palestine at all.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Historic homeland of the Jewish people long before anyone else currently contesting it came along.”

          Baloney. I’m the last remaining Canaanite. Of my land, bitch!!

        • eljay says:

          >> There is no more honorable thing than standing up and defending your family, especially when the truth is on your side.

          It’s nice to see that giladgeee finally understands and supports the Palestinians.

        • ColinWright says:

          Woody says: “…“Historic homeland of the Jewish people long before anyone else currently contesting it came along.”

          Baloney. I’m the last remaining Canaanite. Of my land, bitch!!”

          There’s some bit in the New Testament that quite unequivocally says that Christians are the new chosen people, heirs to the birthright of the Jews, etc.

          Now, as it happens I’m neither a practicing nor a believing Christian, but my ancestors almost certainly were.

          Nor were many of the Zionists practicing Jews. Nor were they descendants of inhabitants of Palestine. Nor do I see how the Old Testament can be taken as revealed truth but the New Testament dismissed out of hand.

          So it seems to me that whatever justification the Zionists use to assert an exclusive claim to Palestine I can as reasonably employ myself.

          Of course, I dunno about you, Woody Tanaka — but Palestine’s as surely mine as it was Golda Meir’s. In fact, she was a school teacher in Milwaukee, while I had an incarnation as a school teacher in Los Angeles, and Los Angeles is a whole lot more like Palestine than Milwaukee is, so that pretty much settles that.

        • Hostage says:

          Israel is far from perfect but yes, the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle.

          More to the point, it’s far from acceptable. Some of the Jews were indigenous and meant no harm to the other inhabitants, but you narcissistic Zionists have given everyone living there a bad reputation when it comes to truthfulness. Your comments here indicate that you’re completely clueless and dishonest, but you’ve nailed the usual smug, arrogant, performance.

        • Shmuel says:

          the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle

          So “Jewish people” is identical to “Israeli” and has a single “side”. This is not only false; it is downright racist.

        • talknic says:

          giladg September 20, 2012 at 7:10 pm

          “Historic homeland of the Jewish people long before anyone else currently contesting it came along.”

          A) The State of Israel was declared the Jewish people’s homeland state, effective one minute after midnight Palestine time May 15th 1948.

          The Historic Jewish People’s homeland was never a state it was a small kingdom for a very short period of time. The moment the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel came into effect, the Jewish people’s historic homeland was relegated to history.

          B) During which periods of history were Jews the majority in the region?

        • giladg says:

          The easy, and cowardly thing in Philip’s case, is that he does not defend anything Jewish (he is Jewish) in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
          Philip, why don’t you tell us about an exchange you had with Barghouti, with whom you say you have intimate contact, whereby you asked him to acknowledge the connection Jews have to the Temple Mount? How did that go Philip, or have you not gotten around to that discussion yet? Have you asked him about an option for sharing the Temple Mount? Philip, Philip.. are you there?

        • giladg says:

          What happens to your world Annie Robbins, when one day you discover what the Palestinian’s are really about, how they have used buzzwords like apartheid and ethnic cleansing as a tactical weapon with little or no connection the current reality. In 1948 some left on their own and some where expelled by Israel. Since then nothing of sort has been repeated and you know it. One day a Palestinian is going to say something and wham, you will start to understand some of the insight I have been trying to expose here. You will realize to what level of evil they have reached and how much you have been used. It will be interesting, for yourself of course, how you then react. You will learn a lot about yourself then and will have choices to make.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “So it seems to me that whatever justification the Zionists use to assert an exclusive claim to Palestine I can as reasonably employ myself.”

          Sound logic, ColinWright. (As far as these things go. See, e.g., gilad’s postings from the sanitarium.) We’ll split it. I get the north, you get the south.

        • seanmcbride says:

          giladg wrote,

          What happens to your world Annie Robbins, when one day you discover what the Palestinian’s are really about….

          What happens to your world giladg, when one day you discover that Benjamin Netanyahu, Likud, Israeli settlers and the Israel lobby have alienated every last nation on the planet, including the United States? Then what? Will Moshiach step in to save the day? Perhaps Mitt Romney? John Hagee?

        • ColinWright says:

          Citizen: “@ ColinWright

          So, you think they want to become isolated dots like the WASPs are now?”

          What’s wrong with being an ‘isolated dot’ as you put it? Speaking for myself, I haven’t the least desire to get sucked into some identity whose definition I have no say in.

        • talknic says:

          giladg September 20, 2012 at 11:26 am

          “There is no more honorable thing than standing up and defending your family, especially when the truth is on your side.”

          Indeed.

          ” …the Jewish people have the truth on their side in the context of the Arab/Israeli struggle.”

          How strange. Nothing stands up to scrutiny when it comes to the Israeli narrative on the I/P issue. NOTHING! When you start with a lie and continue, all you have is more lies. Israeli citizens have been fed bullsh*te for 64 years.

        • ColinWright says:

          giladg says: “What happens to your world Annie Robbins, when one day you discover what the Palestinian’s are really about, how they have used buzzwords like apartheid and ethnic cleansing as a tactical weapon with little or no connection…”

          What’s the internet acronym for bitter, incredulous laughter?

          You strange, sad, sick little man, so desperately concerned to defend such an evil cause that is bringing so much misery to so many for nothing at all. All you can do is keep trying to paper it all over.

          Looking at you and your cause is like arriving on the scene of some hopeless, pleasureless depraved crime in a trailer park, deprived of any grace or redeeming virtue at all — and having to listen to the obvious perpetrator, sitting on the floor with the knife, soaked in blood, gabbling obvious lies. There’s just nothing there except bleak evil. It’s depressing as hell.

        • Sumud says:

          What happens to your world Annie Robbins, when one day you discover what the Palestinian’s are really about, how they have used buzzwords like apartheid and ethnic cleansing as a tactical weapon with little or no connection the current reality.

          Mirror, meet giladg.

          I wonder if giladg is going to go to his grave believing this tripe. He has already said that jews have a “claim” on Palestine because some jews lived there a long time ago and apparently their land was stolen by the romans. If he can prove that with the appropriate legal documents I’ll eat my hat.

          It tells us that he isn’t really connected with reality, as does his tirade about Palestinians being “evil”. Also the double standard of his claim on Palestine: it’s OK to steal titled Palestinian land (from 1947 until now; ongoing) because of something that might have happened several thousand years ago – as detailed in a magical story book.

          I get the feeling giladg will be one of those sad cases that will justify any sort of atrocity, and when apartheid Israel is long past will be a bitter old man with hatred for Palestinians and even liberal Israelis amplified tenfold. Toxic, and dangerous.

    • I ahve told you gilad before and I will repeat this – -According to Israel Palestinians /Arabs/Iraianians are saying very very bad things( against Israel ), while the truth is that Israel is actually doing those very very bad things( against Palestinians and Iranians ).

    • THis is from Ynet-
      “speaking to the Turkish parliament, Obama conveyed his “deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world – including in my own country.” The American president bowed before Saudi King Abdullah — he praised the “holy Koran,” which “tells us, ‘Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.
      In light of these statements, it is easy to understand why Obama chose to condemn the “disaster” of expanding a balcony in Gilo and the authorization of additional construction in Ramat Shlomo, just as it easy to explain his considerable efforts to force Israel to cede all its territorial assets – including those in the heart of its capital. These declarations can also explain his decision to “shred” George W. Bush’s promise to Ariel Sharon regarding the settlement blocs.

      In general, Obama is becoming more Palestinian than the Palestinians by demanding that Israel halt all construction beyond the Green Line as a precondition for renewing peace talks”

      link to ynetnews.com

      We can understand why people want to focus on speeches and ignore the actions of public figures .Worse when action is not followed as demanded by AIPAC/JINSA/ADL/AEI/FOX/WSJ, the speech is presented as evidences of
      being a cryptomulsim and antiIsrael ( Obama ) or anti peace terrorist antisemitie ( Arafat ) or alternatively as being a great statesman ( Cheney,Blair ,Bush,Sarkozy,Harper ) when the demands are met .

  23. lysias says:

    Apparently also on the tape: Romney was expecting something like the hostage crisis that doomed Carter in 1980, and planned to take advantage of it. Josh Marshall: Foreshadowing Libya?:

    In the newly released full Mojo/Romney tapes, about 4 minutes in on tape one, Romney starts to talk about what he refers to as “the Jimmy Carter election”, i.e., 1980. He then goes on to talk about how the hostage crisis and the failed rescue mission Desert One were pervasive issues through the 1980 election. Then at the end he says that “if something of that nature presents itself I will work to find a way to take advantage of the opportunity.

    Does give renewed force to the idea that the whole putting of the Innocence of Muslims video on line may have been part of a plot to help Romney.

    • my thoughts exactly lysias, especially also he said ‘i’d tell you, but then i’d have to kill you’

      • Mooser says:

        “my thoughts exactly lysias, especially also he said ‘i’d tell you, but then i’d have to kill you’”

        Sweet Jehovah on a pogo stick I can’t stand that expression! Always tempted to whack ‘em a good one and say “Sorry, In that case I better start defending myself!”
        And it’s always accompanied by a stupid little smirk which plainly announces the speakers delight in making a mortal threat.
        What is that Romney, 12 years old?

  24. seafoid says:

    This Romney stuff is ricocheting all over the Middle East right now. The Arabs and the wider Muslim world know that the US is partisan when it comes to Israel and Jewish money.

    Over the medium term this will tear Judaism apart.

    And Israel is simply not worth it. It’s like watching a paterfamilias take to heroin.

    • piotr says:

      “… know that the US is partisan when it comes to Israel …”

      The shock! The lost innocence!

      • ColinWright says:

        piotr says: ‘“… know that the US is partisan when it comes to Israel …”

        The shock! The lost innocence!’

        I can remember back when people were actually keeping a straight face and wondering whether we were jeopardizing our status as an ‘honest broker.’

        That dates me.

    • Mooser says:

      “Over the medium term this will tear Judaism apart.”

      I don’t think so, seafoid. We’re too cowed, too much in awe of ourselves. We believe our own pretenses. We’d rather the world end than be exposed. No, we’ll go down with the shits, rather than admit that Judaism is, really, just a bunch of people. We’ll never admit there isn’t something there, something much bigger than Zionism, something that makes Zionism just a bad choice, easily overcome once Jews put their minds to it. And of course, something much bigger than us (which more than repays us for the fact that we can’t change it) which we are very lucky to get a piece of.
      If Judaism was torn apart, each Jew would have to take responsibility for him/her self. And, as Shmuel says, and I was too dense to understand at the time: “It’s a ‘we’ thing”
      A weakness you can present as an asset is a hard thing to give up.
      No, we’ll go down with the ship as the band plays “Waltzing Hatikvah”

      • seafoid says:

        Mooser

        Jews will wake up some Monday morning with zionism in bits. They will need leaders who had nothing to do with the car crash.

        • Mooser says:

          “Jews will wake up some Monday morning with zionism in bits. They will need leaders…”

          You know, I think you might have hit directly on our biggest problem. Anyway, we won’t just need leaders, we’ll need proven, effective leaders. People with experience in leadership…. Wait! I think I know where we can find a bunch! And if they’re out of a job, we can get ‘em at a bargain salary! Oh, stop making that face, doubter, the ideology isn’t important, it’s the leadership skills we need, and we can’t afford to wait very long, or Judaism’s organisation and image will fall to pieces, and what will the Gentiles think of us then, and what will they do to us if we’re leaderless?

        • Mooser says:

          “Jews will wake up some Monday morning with zionism in bits. They will need leaders…”

          Oh yes indeed! Why even the most cursory review of Jewish history will show just how evolved, fair and representative our process of selecting these leaders is, and what these leaders have done for us. Can’t do without ‘em, can we?

    • ColinWright says:

      seafoid says: ‘…Over the medium term this will tear Judaism apart… ‘

      This immediately raises a question.

      When — exactly — was Judaism together?

  25. Mondowise says:

    hey, where’s Anonymous these days? why aren’t they spazzing out and going on the warpath with nation-wide (and global) protests and all their cyber tricks against izraeli occupation of american policies?

  26. Mitt Romeny will like to hand over ME foreign policy to Israel. He wants to mount attack on Iran. Now he does not beleive in any pressure on Israel to make peace with Palestine. He goes to Adelson for money and he come to Isreal for money. Adelson has only one demand – make Israel safe by bombing Iran and denying Palestine satehood on WB. Mitt does not belive in Palestine righst on WB . The Obama’s Jewish supporters are withholding money for 1-not being tough on Iran
    2-for being tough on Isreal
    3for making demnads on Israel despite sanctions after sanctions, attack after attack against muslim countries and shutting off Palestine from any discussion from the war of 2009 to until now and money after money showered on israel by Obama along with veto in UN for Israel.
    and they use the foil that Obama is not business friendly enough to hide their desire and discontent
    Mitt is proud of having Israeli centric players in his adminstartion who has close connection to Isarel at many levels. Some of them have worked for Bush Jr and been involved with PNAC and been identified by reporters for obstructing CIA’s focus on Al Quida
    The whole Republican campaign was an exercise in hatred and anger at muslims, Arabs and Iran .

    - I guess its al ot for US public to digest and synthesize. An Antisemitism charge wont fly out of israel-neocon house to smear one who describes these facts, but a simple summary of these developments saying that Mitt’s campaign is infested with same neocns who pushed for iraq war are now pushing Mitt to get elected and then to attck Iran will be termed as hate camapign of antisemitism!
    Maureen Dowd just found that out.

    • ColinWright says:

      traintosiberia says: “..The whole Republican campaign was an exercise in hatred and anger at muslims, Arabs and Iran…”

      Too bad most Americans merely think Arabs/Muslims are frightening, dangerous, and unpleasant people who should stay there whilst we stay here and haven’t the least interest in actually going to war with Iran.

  27. RE: “In the ex-president’s 2009 book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid . . .”

    MY COMMENT: You need to flip that 9 – thereby making it a 6!

    FROM WIKIPEDIA: Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid[1] is a New York Times Best Seller book written by Jimmy Carter, 39th President of the United States (1977–1981) and winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize. It was published by Simon and Schuster in November 2006.[2] . . .
    SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org

    • ColinWright says:

      Dickerson3870 says: “…FROM WIKIPEDIA: Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid[1] is a New York Times Best Seller book written by Jimmy Carter…”

      Wasn’t that the book that exposed Jimmy Carter as an anti-semite?

      I remember all that was so annoying. Jimmy Carter wasn’t and isn’t my cup of tea. But he was (and is) indubitably a good man, and to see him viciously slandered like that…

  28. ritzl says:

    Don’t know if someone already caught this, but meanwhile in Florida, Netanyahu campaigns…

    Iran, Iran, red-line, strong leader, Iran, Iran…

    link to politico.com

    (apologies if this is OT)

    • ColinWright says:

      It’d be kind of nice if Netanyahu just took the gloves off and ran for President of the United States himself.

      Technically, he can’t, but I’d be willing to make an exception — just to get this over with.

      • ritzl says:

        Heh. Ya know, when Schwarzenegger had a shot at running there was more than a few trial balloons floated about revising the Constitution to allow foreign-born candidates.

        A) Again with the wisdom of the Founders (thank God and TJ); and,

        B) As sure as you and I are talking about it, you bet there are people steeped enough in their power and thinking that that revision may be in order in Net’s case. He’s a US citizen, right?

        Yeah I realize that (B) is borderline, but hell, we’ve been having a media play about Iran, beyond any/all observable indications that that’s nothing other than pure crazy. What’s to stop a pure crazy push about BN running for US President? I mean he’s already campaigning like he brings something to voters’ dinner table conversation…