In the Israeli documentary, The Gatekeepers, former heads of the Shin Bet make some rather serious charges. One says that Israel is “making the lives of millions unbearable, into prolonged human suffering.” Ok, that seems demonstrable—but when another says that Israel has become “a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II,” I don’t know.
With all due respect to former Shin Bet chiefs, who I concede are better informed than I am, comparisons of Israeli behavior to that of the Nazis seem to go a bit far. It’s time to confront this exaggeration head on, so here is a partial list of ways in which Israel is not like Nazi Germany:
*Throughout its history, Nazi Germany killed millions of innocent people; Israel has killed only, say, fifty thousand innocent Palestinians, Lebanese, and Egyptians– tops.
*For the sake of deterrence, Nazi Germany would kill ten innocent people, randomly selected, for every one of its own people killed by the resistance. By contrast, Israeli retaliation is less random; indeed, it doesn’t kill even the family members of Palestinian militants who attack Israelis, but merely demolishes their homes.
*Nazi Germany had contempt for all Jews and black people, most of the rest of the European peoples and societies, and the United States. By contrast, while Israel has contempt for Muslims, black people and most European states (the goyim), it has contempt only for some Jews (e.g. Jewish critics of Israel), and not (by and large) for the United States, at least if you don’t count its black President.
*Nazi Germany ruthlessly cracked down on all internal dissent and protest; Israel’s recent pressures on dissenters and other attacks on civil liberties are not as extensive.
*Even before the Holocaust, Nazi Germany passed many laws excluding Jews from all normal participation in their country. True, Israel discriminates in many ways against Arabs, but not as extensively.
*In Nazi Germany, there was no democracy. In Israel, despite the increasing anti-democratic trends, if you don’t count the Arabs democracy is still generally intact—especially for Jewish Israelis who support the government’s policies towards the Palestinians.
No doubt additional comparisons could be made, but the point should be clear: Nazi Germany was much worse than Israel. What a relief!
This is a crosspost from Jerome Slater’s site, “On the U.S. and Israel.”
I agree with Slater for the most part. That being said, Israel is bad enough. So the Nazi comparison is not just hyperbole, but pointless.
Israel crimes and the crimes of other law-breaking, pariah States around the world are bad enough.
It is a pointless article. Israel is not nazi germany but that doesn’t mean anything. Neither is it the Care Bears. And that is what counts.
The Zionist agenda is surely responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqis via the sanctions of the 1990s and the invasion of 2003.
And God knows how many Iranians died in the 1980s due to the US backing of Saddam due to a Zionist agenda.
Millions killed so far. Not 50,000
So the Nazi comparison is not just hyperbole, but pointless.
Actually the people who kvetch against the eyewitnesses making the comparisons (in this particular case a group of Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs) are the parties engaged in a pointless exercise.
The people who make the comparisons include Jewish intellectuals, like Hannah Arendt, who witnessed life in Axis occupied Europe and its concentration camps first hand.
The same United Nations Organization that accused the Fascists of crimes against the peace and security of mankind and which codified The Nuremberg Principles, has documented the Israeli role and participation in similar crimes of aggression, the crime of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. Israel’s massacres differ only in the matter of extent or quantity, not the criminal quality or nature of the acts.
@ Hostage
Exactly. I do hope Cliff and seafoid respond to your comment. Has either of them even read Arendt’s writings on the subject? I’m sure they are at least aware of her coinage, “the banality of evil” re Eichmann Trial. Have they read the Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs who didn’t think what they said was pointless?
I’m not dismissing the ‘banality of evil.’
I think Israel is bad enough on its own. I think it’s crimes are both predictable as well as unique precisely because of the Jewish Lobby/Israel Lobby and the strength of Jewish agency in the States and its effect on other social groups.
Once you make Nazi comparisons you open yourself up to attack by Zionist charlatans. The point we should make is that Israel’s crimes are bad enough, illegal enough, immoral enough – and we live in the present-day.
Once you make Nazi comparisons you open yourself up to attack by Zionist charlatans.
It isn’t just Zionist charlatans who rush to Israel’s defense, see “Why Nazi Germany references are banned on my blog” By Noam Sheizaf
link to 972mag.com
@ Hostage
Thank you for the link. From the article:
“Saying someone is a Nazi means he represents the ultimate evil – something that shouldn’t be negotiated or compromised with, but only fought. If you think Israel should be wiped off the map, not just the country but its people themselves, you won’t find support on this blog.”
Noam Sheizaf makes baseless assumptions. He comes up with his own definition of the term “Nazi” (= ultimate evil -> Holocaust uniqueness) and own ideas of how to combat Nazism (= only fight -> no mercy). Then he puts these words into the mouths of the people who draw parallels between Nazism and Zionism. However, just because someone makes a Nazi comparison doesn’t mean that this person wants to see the Zionists massacred. Personally, I don’t believe that the Nazis represent the ultimate evil. Also, I don’t want anyone to be wiped off the map, not even evil people.
By the way, can anyone tell me whether Noam Sheizaf is an anti-Zionist or merely a “liberal” Zionist?
Good point, Hostage!
The comparison and contrast with Nazi violations is a major basis used by human rights groups in evaluating persecution. It is important to point out important similarities (eg. nationalistic categorizing), even if there are important differences too (body count due to the direct actions of each army).
Wake up, guys! Slater’s being sarcastic, “defending” Zionism by pointing out the many ways it isn’t nearly as bad as Nazi Germany. With shomers like Slater, who needs delegitimizers? Very funny, Jerome!
The emerging Arab theocracies and Iran do resemble Nazi Germany in the extraordinary violence men who believe in rule by divine fiat are willing to employ to repress all opposition.
In Tunisia, a secular Arab leader was murdered by Islamists. From Western leftists, the reaction has been one of deafening silence. Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.
A pro-Zionist site would not be permitted to exist in any Arab country and Iran. Non-Zionist, indeed anti-Zionist individuals and groups can operate openly in Israel.
Much of the vitriol, slander and defamation of Israel has nothing to do with reality let alone the truth of the Middle East, which is exactly the opposite of the way Israel is commonly depicted.
“Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.”
Israel regularly kills Palestinian protestors and jails Palestinian activists on trumped up charges like ‘incitement’.
Israel may not indiscriminately bomb Jewish neighborhoods. Fantastic. It spares no expense however in murdering Palestinians – whether they be Hamas or children caught in the cross-fire.
Oh and Israel sometimes bulldozes American human rights workers.
>> NormanF @ February 12, 2013 at 10:17 am
“Israel: We maynot be as good as the best but, hey, at least we’re not as bad as the worst!”(c)
>> Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.
Sure it does. Among other things, it:
- constrains free speech;
- shoots opponents in the face with high-velocity tear-gas canisters;
- imprisons opponents;
- tortures opponents; and
- assassinates opponents.
>> Much of the vitriol, slander and defamation of Israel has nothing to do with reality let alone the truth of the Middle East …
But it has everything to do with the reality and truth of the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel.
Norman- in israel a secular prime minister was murdered by the settlers. Israel shoots to kill.
Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.
I take it that you haven’t seen the examples of extra-judicial killings that are shown in the Israeli documentary, The Gatekeepers. In 2006, the Supreme Court of Israel rubber stamped the government program. The Anat Kamm – Uri Blau affair centered on evidence that destroyed the credibility of the IDF and Supreme Court regarding their compliance with the token safeguards that had been proposed.
Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.
Israel now detains 15 Palestinian MPs. and how can you say Israel does not kill its opponents after the most recent targeted assassination of Ahmed Al-Jabari? this comment of yours is baffling.
>> this comment of yours is baffling.
Really? He’s a Zio-supremacist, and his brazenly-dishonest comment is very much the sort of comment a Zio-supremacist would make. Nothing baffling about that.
Annie and Eljay,
You are both right.
“Nothing baffling about that.”~Eljay
Yes. Nor is there anything baffling about the idea that an oxymoronic Liberal Zionist’s internal logic would be baffling, either.
On one hand, liberals often denounce specific policies they oppose by comparing them to fascism or Nazism. Yet the point of the article at hand is to emphasize the difference between Israeli human rights violations and Nazism.
Is that baffling, or isn’t it?
“Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.”
Oh, how soooo cute!
Here’s a list of those most prominent “opponents” murdered by Israel:
Mustafa Hafez
Salah Mustafa
Heinz Krug (German nuclear scientist working in Egypt)
Abdel Wael Zwaiter
Ghassan Kanafani
Mahmoud Hamshari
Hussein Bashir
Basil Al-Kubaissi
Muhammad Al-Najjar
Kamal Adwan
Kamal Nasser
Zaiad Muchasi
Mohammad Boudia
Wadie Haddad
Zuheir Mohsen
Ali Hassan Salameh
Yehia El-Mashad
Mamoun Meraish
Khalid Nazzal
Abu Jihad
Gerald Bull (Canadian engineer)
Abbas al-Musawi
Atef Bseiso
Fathi Shaqaqi
Yahya Ayyash
Jamal Abdel Raziq
Samih Malabi
Massoud Ayyad
Osama Jawabiri
Omar Saada
Jamal Mansour
Amr Hadiri
Imad Abu Sneneh
Abu Ali Mustafa
Raed Karmi
Yusif Suragji
Bakr Hamdan
Ayman Bihdari
Mohammad Abu Halawa
Fawzi Murrar
Yasir Raziq
‘Amr Kufa
Salah Shahade
Ali Ajuri
Murad Marshud
Nassa Jarrar
Ibrahim al-Makadmeh
Ismail Abu Shanab
Mekled Hameid
Muhammad Judah
Tarad Jamal
Ibrahim Dayri
Ammar Hassan
Ahmed Yassin
Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi
Adnan al-Ghoul
Mahmoud al-Majzoub
Jamal Abu Samhadana
Imad Mughniyah
Muhammad Suleiman
Nizar Rayan
Abu Zakaria al-Jamal
Said Seyam
Khaled Shalan
Masoud Alimohammadi
Mahmoud al-Mabhouh
Issa al-Batran
Mohammed Nimnim
Islam Yassin
Mohammed A-Najar
Tayseer Abu Snima
Darioush Rezaeinejad
Abu Oud al-Nirab
Khaled Shaath
Mostafa Ahmadi-Roshan
Zuhir al-Qaisi
Ahmed Jaabari
And that’s just the top of the crop. Thousands of other less known were murdered over the decades.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I just take note that hasbarists are not as good as they used to be..Or is it that the same BS doesn’t pass the smell test anymore?
Same, repetitive stuff, so my vote is for the latter. A good thing…
Up to 1939, the number of people — including political dissidents — whom Nazi Germany had killed numbered, I would guess, in the five figures. This was certainly objectionable, but I don’t think it merits the phrase “extraordinary violence.”
In fact, most of the distinctions people draw between Israel and Nazi Germany only apply to post-1939 Nazi Germany. And pre-1939 Nazi Germany was still Nazi.
What happened post-1939 shows what evil potential existed pre-1939 in Nazi Germany. Where the evils in Israel up to now will eventually lead, we do not know.
If Nazi Germany had been dependent economically and diplomatically on a lone superpower, and what it did was done after a Nuremberg & Tokyo court set minimum limits on sovereign states’ power, supported by Genevaesque international laws, Nazi Germany would have done what Israel has done, and it would justify its conduct in the same way Israel does.
For a tiny country the size of NJ, post-1945, I’d say Israel has been very successful in creating a state so far immune to the basics of humane conduct as supported by world consensus, especially Western consensus–important since Israel bills itself as a bastion of Western freedom and humanity.
The Nazis did what was in their power to do in their time, and the Zionists have done, and do what it is in their power to do controlling a sovereign state since 1948.
So Israel has no gas chambers. We should applaud it?
Nazi Germany could never have come into being in this media age, where state radio and movies no longer have total control of information sent to the people anywhere.
Israel mimics what it can of Nazi tactics at home and abroad, considering this is the age of cable Tv and the internet and other electronic social media programs.
So Israel has no gas chambers. We should applaud it?
Nah, they just have the signs and intent:
link to abdelxyz.files.wordpress.com
I have always liked Prof Slater…but he has outdone himself here…this is tooo blinking funny…”comparisons to Nazi Germany are exaggerated”…
Yeah, I agree. When the question is how much a state resembles Nazi Germany, that state has already lost the game.
“When the question is how much a state resembles Nazi Germany, that state has already lost the game.”
Which was precisely my point. Hard to imagine that the state that was supposed to be a light unto the nations now defends its behavior on the ground that nobody complains about, say, Syria. From “a light unto the Nations” to “Not as bad as Nazi Germany.”
@ Jerry Slater
Was that precisely your point? Maybe you better reread what you wrote. Pretend you are a reader from, oh I don’t know, Iceland?
But I do agree with your responsive comment’s conclusion.
I read your article as satire – was I wrong to do so?
Woody Tanaka: “When the question is how much a state resembles Nazi Germany, that state has already lost the game.”
Jerry Slater: “Which was precisely my point.”
I had the feeling that this article should not be taken literally when I read the last two sentences: “Nazi Germany was much worse than Israel. What a relief!”
Of course, the extent of the crimes are not the same. However, the nature of the crimes as well as the ideology (i.e. ethnic nationalism) is the same.
By the way, according to a report from 2011
48.8 % of the Portuguese
47.7 % of Germans
42.4 % of Brits
38.7 % of the Dutch
37.6 % of Italians
agree with the statement that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.” Of course, this was misinterpreted as anti-Semitic.
link to library.fes.de
“I read your article as satire – was I wrong to do so?”
Okay, now I’m confused about all the people who are confused. Isn’t the point obvious? On the one hand Slater is making some very literal points of fact–Israel has “only” killed maybe fifty thousand Arabs, not many millions, etc…
But he’s clearly doing it to ridicule the people who defend Israel against the charge of being like Nazi Germany by pointing out that while it isn’t as bad, it’s still pretty bad and oh, by the way, there are some resemblances (as there tend to be between all states which seriously abuse human rights, even when one does it on a much larger scale than the other.) And as Woody made explicit, if you have to defend yourself by saying you’re not as bad as Hitler, you’ve lost.
I guess satire is a risky way to make a point.
I thought you had two points: first, that Israel wasn’t nearly as bad as Nazism, and second, a satiric point that this is not an achievement.
Can’t you just see the promotional bumper stickers? ‘Israel: Not as Bad as Nazi Germany!’
Indeed. Wasn’t there a movie dialogue that ended like:
She: “… but I am not that kind of a women!”
He: “We have already established what you are. from here we are only haggling about the price”.
that was george bernard shaw that was…they say arabs are unfamiliar with western culture..pfft.
light unto the nations. what an absurd notion and its Tibet in this secular New Age isnt it, before Michael Parenti got to it anyway( his book on Tibet is a good example of how not to approach a subject, but he has written some very good stuff too.
one love from the Allites
“We have already established what you are. from here we are only haggling about the price.”
eGuard, I understand what you mean, but please don’t compare prostitution to ethnic nationalism and ethnic cleansing. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with prostitution, because nobody’s rights are violated. Where I live, prostitution is not a crime at all. And in other countries, it’s a victimless crime.
link to quoteinvestigator.com
actually the comparison is apt. now comparing nazi treatment to jews is a little much but to how the nazis treated some of peoples is basicly the same to how Israel treats the palestinians. look at the nazi occupation of poland and the parallels are striking.
That’s what I was thinking about – seeing a Israeli soldier antagonize and abuse the Palestinians in their concentrated encampments.
What was the point of this article?.. that Israelis will never be as bad as Nazi Germany. Israel’s saga isn’t yet complete.
@ Chu
I agree, the point of the article is ambiguous to say the least.
i thought i get get a better grasp by reading the comments where it’s cross posted at slater’s blog. but there’s only one comment published so far.
Annie,
This is why Mondoweiss rocks: it generates vigorous and intelligent discussion and debate. Its readers are engaged. They are paying attention.
Home demolitions are carried out in the spirit of Lidice. The Bots don’t have to go as far as the Nazis _ we don’t have a world war to make a proper comparison_but Zionism is a sick ideology.
I was thinking that the film referred to should have been called 6 broken gatekeepers. To go with the 5 broken cameras.
It seems worthwhile pondering WHY did the retired Shin Bet leader make the sensational comparison? Not because of total equality in evil or deaths, but because there are similarities and it’s especially powerful and ironic given the Zionist tendency to repeatedly and constantly portray themselves only as victims.
As to the differences, the innocent death tally attributable to Israel seems low. Whether it is through support to apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia in the 60′s and 70′s, or to arms sales to Central American dictatorships when they were so bloody and bad that sales were prohibited by US Congress, there are a lot more deaths and mayhem that Israel has contributed to. What about the heavy role played by Israel and its American or dual citizen supporters in promoting the Iraq war which has led to a million dead? Looking to the future, if there is a war with Iran, how many are going to die in that conflagration? Israel is in the forefront promoting that potential catastrophe.
Still I think the author is correct in pointing out significant differences. Here is another: Nazi Germany was a major and principal force; Israel is a pit bull and regional power but the master is elsewhere.
I read elsewhere (sorry, can’t remember which site) that this particular individual was referring to his childhood memories of Nazi Germany – footage that ended up on the cutting room floor. BUT apparently (from the same article) the film maker intends to use the many hours of unused footage to expand the film into a series, which will be released later.
@ rws450
Astute comment. See my comments above on this thread.
“After Benedict XVI” – editorial, today’s LA Times”
notes & comments -
…..”his resignation’s will discomfit conservative roman catholics who worry that the existence of a former pope might delute the mystique of the office?”
choosing style over substance?
…..”he became disenchanted with the results of the 2nd vatican council’s call for an engagement with the modern world?”
something holding back these abrahamic religions?
….”the pope’s reverence for the traditional authority of the church may also have figured in his failure to respond forcefully to the church’s child sex abuse scandal?”
excuses, excuses, excuses?
….”the central theme of this papacy was the importance of holding fast to ancient truths, not an openness to the new insights that catholics believe represent the workings of the Holy Spirit?”
no modern truths?
….the next pope should be “….less doctrinaire and more pastoral than benedict, and more willing to decentralize authority in the church?”
first tend the flock?
…..”benedict was insufficiently vigilant about the sexual abuse of minors by catholic priests and the hierarchy’s self-protective impulse to cover up the crimes?”
covering up the crime of child abuse, itself a crime?
….”the man chosen to be the next bishop of rome should have an impeccable record of protecting children from wolves in shepherd’s clothing?”
impeccable record & from the very institution that gave us the crusades, the inquisition, colonialism (co-culprit), and silence (mostly) during the holocaust? -
& israel’s impeccable record?
invented?
its actual record?
more & more widely known?
justice for palestine?
right on time?
covering up the crime of child abuse, itself a crime?
Of course it is. Many of the victims are already pointing out that, as a former head of state, the ex-Pope no longer enjoys immunity from lawsuits arising from the role he played in cover-ups.
At least one group of victims has filed a complaint with the ICC describing a joint criminal enterprise in connection with widespread and systematic sexual abuses perpetrated by members of the clergy and cover-ups involving high ranking Church officials, including the Pope.
* link to s3.documentcloud.org
* link to ccrjustice.org
‘Israel has killed only, say, fifty thousand innocent Palestinians, Lebanese, and Egyptians– tops.’ German population was around 80 million in 1940 and Israel is about 7 million today. If we were comparing equal numbers, say Israel were 80 million, they would have killed closer to 600,000. But to be so blase with 50 thousand deaths though…
But those deaths are somehow less offensive, tell us why?
The problem with Israel is, the killing machine is on a silent simmer. It’s been going on for decades and people know what the charade is about.
Wow. What a relief. Israel not as bad as Nazi Germany. I believe the point made by Citizen is most apt. “The Nazi’s did what was in their power to do in their time. and the Zionists have done and do what is in their power to do. ” I don’t believe Nazi Germany has occupied any State or people for nigh onto three generations. “For a State the size of NJ”, Israel has done quite well in the demonization, ethnic cleansing, murderous assault, torture of a ,basically, defenseless , innocent people. And Slaters belief that Irael doesn’t crack down on dissent leaves out the thousands of Palestiniands imprisoned , without charges for years, teachers, scholars , social activists, politicians. He should see the film 5 broken Cameras to see Israel’s treatment of “dissent”. And believe me it did not show the extreme cruelty of Israel’s occupation. BTW, the vast majority of the thousand s of homes demolished had nothing to do with people or families involved in “terrorism. ” Building shelter for a Palestinian family on Palestinian land seems to be incitement enough to the sensitive Israeli occupiers. “What a relief”, indeed.
I prefer to call Israel a ‘midget’ Nazi state…not full blown Nazism.
Although it hasn’t gone so far…..yet…as to round up ‘all’ the Palestines, just some of them…..the ‘mentality’ is the same.
Just substitute Aryan for Jewish and there you have the same ideology and mentality of ethno/religo/race like majority and rule.
Does anyone doubt that if Israel could, it would ‘transfer’ the Palestines out of Palestine as a solution for Israel, the same way the Nazis first ‘emigrated’ the Jews out of Germany?
If Hitler existed today in the 21st century this is the way he would present his plan for removing the Jews from Germany, as a——-.“humanitarian” plan. As a matter of fact Hitler used this same rational in his Jewish plan in the early days of nazism. The plan to move Jews to ‘colonies’ outside of Germany or get other countries to take them in in exchange for a payment since they couldn’t learn to assimilate within Germany,… ..just like the ‘defect’ the Palestines have in being ‘incapable of statehood” according to zionist…..and where they could learn to farm and have their own communes ‘for their own good’ and Germany’s.
link to jerusalemsummit.org
B. Analysis
1. Analysis of their deeds and declarations over the years make it difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Palestinians are in effect both unwilling and incapable of achieving and maintaining statehood.
11. As for the Palestinians resident in Israeli administered territory, there is only one reasonable and feasible alternative that will:
(a) extricate them from their dire humanitarian plight;
(b) free them from the yoke of generations of misrule by their leadership;
(c) ensure the survival of Israel as the nation-state of the Jews.
12. This is a generous relocation and resettlement package to allow them to build a new life for themselves and their families in countries preferably, but not necessarily exclusively, with similar religious and socio-cultural conditions.
13. In order to minimize the ability of organized Palestinian interest groups to impede the success of such an effort, the offer of financial inducement to emigrate must be “atomized” – i.e. made to individual Palestinian breadwinners on a one-to one personal level and not on a communal level via some formal Palestinian entity.
C. Conclusion
1. The establishment of a Palestinian State must removed from the international agenda.
2. However, removing the issue of a Palestinian state from the international agenda will not eliminate the humanitarian predicament of Palestinians residing in Israeli-administered areas.
3. This is clearly an issue that must be addressed and resolved. But it must be addressed not in political terms but in humanitarian ones.
4. Thus, to successfully resolve the Palestinian problem, the Political Paradigm must be replaced by a Humanitarian Paradigm. This, however can only be done if the current Palestinian narrative, which fuels the Political Paradigm, is de-legitimized.
5. Thus, the de-legitimization of the Palestinian narrative becomes a vital prerequisite to any comprehensive resolution of the Palestinian issue.”
You can’t read this without seeing it for exactly what it is and if you check out the board members of this group you will see the well known Zionist we are familiar with and even some US politicians who endorse it.
Several comments cite this quote: “Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.” I’m not sure who was supposed to have said that, but it certainly wasn’t me.
On the contrary, I did say this: “Israel has killed only, say, fifty thousand innocent Palestinians, Lebanese, and Egyptians–tops.” The word “tops” was to supposed to be satirical, as was the whole piece: obviously if you kill fifty thousand innocent people, the word “only” is preposterous, even though the Nazis killed millions.
Several comments cite this quote: “Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.” I’m not sure who was supposed to have said that, but it certainly wasn’t me.
Norman F said it above. His second paragraph:”In Tunisia, a secular Arab leader was murdered by Islamists. From Western leftists, the reaction has been one of deafening silence. Israel does not kill its opponents or prevent them from expressing their views.”
The comments are in response to Norman F.
Glad to have Professor Slater make explicit the satirical nature of his piece – I thought so, but, frankly, wasn’t entirely sure. Yes, “Nazi Germany was much worse than Israel. What a relief!”
This seems like a fitting occasion to recall the parallel images compiled by Norman Finkelstein in the wake of Operation Cast Lead – check them out at
link to countercurrents.org
(They were originally posted on Finkelstein’s site
link to normanfinkelstein.com
but at least for me the images no longer load from there.)
Along similar lines, recall the Adbusters article that the Zionists tried to use to crucify Professor William Robinson of the University of California at Santa Barbara:
link to sb4af.wordpress.com
obviously if you kill fifty thousand innocent people, the word “only” is preposterous, even though the Nazis killed millions.
I agree completely. I think the Israeli and Palestinian experience has been more corrosive in some respects. Several generations have become inured to violence and crime as valuable tools for achieving their political goals through deterrence or reprisals.
The members of the “peace camp” (on both sides of the conflict) are treated as the lunatic fringe, or worse still, as “collaborators”.
@ Jerry Slater
Well, you ain’t exactly Jonathan Swift. Maybe you should check your own ambiguities–and respond to those who replied to your article with comments, not to each other’s comments.
The word “tops” …
If your general audience doesn’t know you’re attempting to be satirical, it’s best to avoid humor or satire when talking about dead people in general. Leaves a bad taste in general.
i.e. ‘ Those Germans only killed only 6 million Jews, and some other slavs as well’
(not funny)
What could be better satire than Dr. Strangelove? The Air Force commander uses that word “tops” in describing the millions of deaths that would result from a nuclear war:
I’m a little uncertain about Jerry’s tone here. He clearly is being at least partially sarcastic, but I’m unsure if he means to be completely sarcastic. What he is saying is that Israel isn’t as bad as Nazi Germany but is guilty of a lot of the same offenses, only to a lesser degree, and it’s hardly something for Israelis to take comfort in. I will say from experience that my efforts at sarcasm on this site have been misinterpreted by some very smart people. Tone is sometimes difficult to convey.
Yeah but for humor to be good, it has to have a grain of truth. He sums up that he is serious, but he also satirizes any inspiring feelings from this conclusion.
” the point should be clear: Nazi Germany was much worse than Israel(serious). What a relief! (satire)”
I read the piece as satirical…..but with a small ‘thank god we aren’t that bad” also.
Thanks David. It was a mix of viewpoints, though not un-complementary ones. Kind of a sarcastic preemption to a factual and comparative presentation.
Way OT, but your (and others) comments at Open Zion a few days ago about Israel coming to grips with the crimes/nature of its founding (and long-term effects) were direct and profound. It was/is a biting point (particularly the way you presented it) and I don’t know why it isn’t used more often. Hammered home, actually. Repeated ad infinitum.
From one of your comments there:
Brilliant! and direct.
Main article at OZ (dang, I just realized that that acronym relates to a fantasy…!): link to thedailybeast.com
thanks ritzl.
Zionism is Jewish fascism. The same basic philosophy-blood, soil, land, people- simply applied at a different time and place and to different peoples. Zionists haven’t killed millions of people, because they haven’t needed to. Not yet.
Jerry Slater,
One can’t judge the toxicity or criminality of any particular political or ideological movement until it has completely run its course.
How many people had Nazism killed as of, say, 1935?
What is clear is that Israel fits into the template of historical messianic ethnic nationalist movements — which includes Germany, Italy, Japan, South Africa, the Confederacy, etc. in their ethnic nationalist phases.
And Israel has promised to unleash the Samson Option on the world if it is backed into a corner — and it is backing itself into a corner as we speak.
Jeremy,
I understood your article in the spirit in which it was intended.
The scary part is that Israel has not yet finished with Palestinians, not by the long shot.
I am more petrified by trajectory of sociopolitical development of Israel than by current ( however abhorrent) and past positions it had adopted.
For the sake of deterrence, Nazi Germany would kill ten innocent people, randomly selected, for every one of its own people killed by the resistance. By contrast, Israeli retaliation is less random;
Nazi Germany was definitely much more ruthless in this respect, but I recently ran across this while searching for a response to Obsidian on another thread.
From a 2005 article in the UK Independent newspaper reprinted here:
link to monabaker.com
Wrong is dependent on scale?
Duh. Germany did not kill as many gypsies*, so it was not as bad! That’s why they do not get their own state.
*even though a higher percent of gypsies.
RE: “Comparisons to Nazi Germany are exaggerated”
MY COMMENT: The more appropriate comparison is to the Italian fascism of Mussolini’s Italy rather than to Nazi Germany.
FROM WIKIPEDIA [Betar]:
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
P.S. RE: “Mussolini set up squadrons of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement, Betar, in black shirts in emulation of his own Fascist bands.” ~ from the Wikipedia excerpt above
• SEE WIKIPEDIA [Blackshirts] – link to en.wikipedia.org
• AND SEE THIS VIDEO – Mussolini in Color : The Blackshirts [VIDEO, 02:24] – link to youtube.com
P.S. FROM WIKIPEDIA [Revisionist Zionism]:
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
“Israel does not kill its opponents…”
How about Lord Moyne, Count Bernadotte, not to mention Yitshak Rabin?
Maybe they were not “opponents”?
So let’s turn it around and see who Israel is far worse than. Ireland. nt. Holland. Denmark. Belgium. Luxembourg.
THe list is endless but why aspire to be like them. Gets In the way of the greater Israel plan
Analogies are never perfect. We should compare Israel’s efforts to get rid of the Palestinians to those of the US to get rid of the Indians.
A lovely bit of swiftian humor.
thank you!
I wonder if the esteemed professor (and/or Mondoweiss, for this matter) care to make the same comparison-points to ALL countries that want to destroy Israel, say Syria, Iran, PA, Hamas, Egypt, Hezbollah, etc.
Do you have the courage and moral integrity to make such comparison?
Asherpat,
This reminds me. I had a mild “debate” once with a left-wing Socialist, who complained that Israel’s left-wing critics wanted to “destroy” it. I said, well in the case of South Africa, integration did not destroy the country, and that’s what leftist critics want for the Holy Land. He did not reply to me.
My impression though, is that by “destroy” he was not talking about invasion and political destruction as we normally think of it. Rather, he equated pluralism and desegregation with “destruction”, in that it cancels political differences. However, since our discussion was in the context of leftist, egalitarian politics, he was not interested in explaining how pluralism would be “destruction.”
Now when I hear claims that “destruction” is desired, I have come to think more that this is a “label” put on pluralizing and integrating the society.
It’s pretty obvious that Isrseli apologists like to cite “destruction” because if the imagery it evokes based on the history of Jewish persecution, not least of which is the Holocaust. More accurate phrases like assimilation, pluralization etc. simply lack the hysteria factor.
Yeah, it makes me wonder how much they believe the stuff themselves. Obviously they know that binationalism is not “destruction.” But they act so emotional about it, it makes it seem like they are serious. I am confused.
Are they really just so emotional about assimilation that the best they can do to express it in a pluralist society is to use exagerrated expressions? I know these things dont have to make sense. After all, the anti-Communists used lots of overblown expressions during McCarthyism.
>> I wonder if the esteemed professor (and/or Mondoweiss, for this matter) care to make the same comparison-points to ALL countries that want to destroy Israel, say Syria, Iran, PA, Hamas, Egypt, Hezbollah, etc.
PA, Hamas, Hezbollah and etc. are countries? When did this happen?
Anyway, AFAIK, no one wants to “destroy Israel”, but they do want to undo oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State”…and I think that’s a very good thing.
For some reason, though, Zio-supremacists prefer to see Israel remain better than Saudi Arabia and Mali…
asherpat says:
I wonder if the esteemed professor (and/or Mondoweiss, for this matter) care to make the same comparison-points to ALL countries that want to destroy Israel, say Syria, Iran, PA, Hamas, Egypt, Hezbollah, etc.
>>>>>>>
I could give you several good reasons and examples for why those countries have a legitimate dislike of and dont want Israel in their neighborhood…..but with your zio mentality it would be a waste of time to give you those facts.
??????
Besides that, hasn’t it led to a plethora of devastating American and western attacks in the Middle East based on the transformation of British and US policy from “Arabist”(Lawrence of Arabia) to much more brutal? (the push to invade Iran being only the latest example)
OK, I got the “only” part as sarcasm.
I understand that you are referring to one-on-one “price tag” policies. However, wasn’t the assault on Gaza a massive attack on civilian centers that was done in retaliation? And weren’t the civilian casualties of Palestinians also several times higher than those of Israelis?
The Israelis would also claim that they don’t target civilians. That doesn’t make sense though when the targets are UN buildings, hospitals, universities, and churches, where such weapons would not be and were not hidden. They still haven’t found the WMDs in Iraq, so why shouldn’t we be skeptical about such claims when these poor people are targeted elsewhere?
“With all due respect to former Shin Bet chiefs, who I concede are better informed than I am, comparisons of Israeli behavior to that of the Nazis seem to go a bit far. ”
No offense ( figure of speech) but I’d go with the opinion of those who, in your own admission, are “better informed”.
At least you are intellectually honest enough not to deny the comparison outright.
“a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II,” I don’t know.
If Israel had already been established in the 30 it would have done the same as Nazi Germany. Different times..Besides, Israel doesn’t need to act like Nazi Germany as the job its doing is good enough to meet the ends. Destruction and annihilation of Palestinian society are well advanced.
The only thing I really want to know any more, the only question I have left, is when is the Palestine ‘s oppression going to end and how is it going to end.
And when and how is the Zionist control of US Israel policy and influence on ME policy going to end.
Everything else about Israel-Palestine and Israel-US I need to know I already know.
comparisons to nazi germany?
exaggerated? -
yet Gaza & the Warsaw Ghetto
same place
different time
while the world stands by
genocide
live
in president obama’s state of the union address?
re: the only gun control measure with any chance of getting through congress? -
where the president says what?
“it deserves a vote”
he’s taking on the nra?
what about the israel lobby?
much more difficult?
yet similar enough?
justice for palestine?
right on time?
It may be too soon to make the comparisons that are made here. Certainly Israel is on its way to out-doing the Germans. In terms of the present, however, the underlying philosophy of lebensraum is exactly the same and the nationalism is also the same. And so is the level of cruelty and the total lack of ethical consciousness. And there are things that are worse, such as harvesting organs from prisoners. (It is common knowledge that this is done and the Swedish newspaers who published it never retracted their story. The evidence is there and is widespread.) As for the headcount, the Israelis would have to kill ALL the Palestinains to equal the headcount. Proportionately the headcount is comparable now. Israelis are just waiting to find a more refined way than gas chambers. Maybe a virus that infects Palestininas and spares the Israeli Nation.