The Israel/Palestine issue seeps into American culture

Israel/Palestine
on 78 Comments
An anonymous friend who has summered at the same retreat community for over 50 years sent me the following vignette. I have changed some minor particulars so as to protect his/her privacy.
 
OK so I am at the folk dance tonight in the community hall in town. A bunch of close old friends are there. They are doing our favorite dances, I am dancing with people I love who I have known, some of them, since I was 2 years old, others since I was 15.  The music comes on and you just watch yourself do a dance you have not done in a decade or two, it just flows out of god knows where. The whole experience is exalting. For some reason someone has brought along a notebook of who attended folk dancing on the same date in 1974 (!), and there is my signature, and the signatures of many of those present tonight, and we read through the names with wonderment and delight. The whole evening fills me with a profound sense of warmth and belonging and gratitude.
We did all our favorite Eastern European dances, some with 11 beats to the measure and others with 15, lots of stomping and shouting. And of course Pata Pata, which brings everyone to their feet  and all the 12-year-old girls streaming in from the overflow crowd outside. My favorites were always the Israeli dances, full of joyful leaping. A few of these have become tainted for me though. The “Israeli” dances with the great drum rhythms, I have learned are, uh, not Israeli. And one of my favorite real Israeli dances has the name of a destroyed Palestinian village: Al Tira.
Toward the end of the evening, I realize that that this guy who has been dancing  all night with us, that I had not recognized before in his beard, is B. Now B. was never a particular buddy of mine, he was on the far periphery of my social circle. And in fact now I remember that after I gave a talk about Palestine in the town library 10 years ago his dad came up to me in the ball park and scolded me, waving his finger way too close to  my face. But anyway– never mind, B. has been around forever, in fact there is his signature too in the folk dancing notebook also from 1974. So I tell him who I am and ask him what he is up to.

He says he is living just south of Jerusalem.
I form a mental image of Jerusalem jutting out into the West Bank, and I think: Huh, just south. That must be a settlement.
So I say: “Where exactly?”
He gives a name I dont know. (Not any of the major settlement names).
And I say: “Well, what I mean really is, which side of the Green Line?”
He says: “Oh, no one cares about the Green Line.”
I say: “*I* care about the Green Line, and so do millions of people.”
Then things are happening around us with other people talking and I take the opportunity to get away from him.
A little later I feel bad that I had to dive straight into it. So I walk up to him again, intending to be conciliatory, and say: “I’m sorry about that, it’s just something I feel strongly about, and I just don’t think it is ok to live in a settlement—”
Then when he does not reply immediately I say:  “I mean, do YOU think it is ok?”
He says: “What do you mean by ‘ok’”?
I say: “Do you think it is ETHICALLY ACCEPTABLE…….because frankly, I don’t.”
He says: “Our people have been there for 3,000 years.”
I lose it and walk away.
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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78 Responses

  1. American
    August 2, 2013, 12:15 pm

    ”He says: “Our people have been there for 3,000 years.”

    Needs relocating to a Jurassic Park island.

    • Donald
      August 2, 2013, 5:48 pm

      Yeah, that 3000 year remark is just so bizarre and fantastic–you have to be immersed in propaganda to say something like that with a straight face. I’m always joking in this context about how half of my ancestors (if you go back far enough, and 1000 years let alone 3000 is plenty far) were probably oppressing the other half (even apart from the gender issue), because if you ignore inbreeding, there’s 1024 ancestors ten generations back, over 1 million going back 20, and if you go back 30 you’re talking about a billion, though of course long before then there are third cousins mating and so forth. 3000 years is maybe 150 generations. Essentially, unless his family tree looks like a bamboo shoot, if this guy has any Middle Eastern ancestry from 3000 years ago, and no doubt he does (and I bet I do), he is just as likely to be related to the Palestinians as anybody else. But I doubt he means that connection.

      • MHughes976
        August 2, 2013, 6:08 pm

        The non-Jewish population of Palestine has been there for 5,000 years or more.

      • American
        August 2, 2013, 11:51 pm

        @ Donald

        Yea, horses have been in Palestine for 6000 years.
        Maybe we should turn it into a horse park.

  2. yrn
    August 2, 2013, 12:48 pm

    How can I not be Amused
    “The Israel/Palestine issue seeps into American culture”

    Well I thought for a Moment, Wow what hot news.
    what can the man write under such a booming head line…………
    A new research that 90% of the American houses are dealing with this issue……….. minimum

    Well in the way it looks like in this article it will take a million years…………….
    But I can’t say the head line did not surprise me.

  3. Annie Robbins
    August 2, 2013, 1:05 pm

    ethnic cleansers look and act like everyone else when they are folk dancing.

    sad.

    • just
      August 2, 2013, 6:37 pm

      Annie– you really are brilliant and a treasure.

    • mcohen
      August 2, 2013, 9:33 pm

      Reply

      Annie Robbins says:

      “ethnic cleansers look….sad”

      Cetaphil is a good for oily skin–,personally I prefer olive oil soap for that extra, extra, slipperiness

  4. Ludwig
    August 2, 2013, 1:50 pm

    We have to keep in mind that the green line is an armistice line. Once Israel made peace with Jordan, the green line disappeared because it wasn’t an armistice any longer, there was peace. This means it’s true, nobody cares about the green line because it simply does not exist.

    It is for this reason that we see massive building and growth all over the Land of Israel, including Judea and Samaria.

    • piotr
      August 2, 2013, 4:25 pm

      who is “nobody”? Some individuals care. Subhumans?

      • just
        August 2, 2013, 5:29 pm

        Judea and Samaria? Really? Get over yourself, Ludwig. Are you so afraid that the world has changed? Perhaps you are a luddite wrt to modern history. Yeah, Israel has moved ahead in technology, but it clings to the ancient past and seems to have stopped with the Holocaust.

        “1. One who fears technology (or new technology, as they seem pleased with how things currently are…why can’t everything just be the same?”

        link to urbandictionary.com

        Move on and realize, please, that what has happened/is happening to the indigenous Palestinians is grotesque and criminal in the extreme. A great fellow, Thayer Hastings, wrote here just the other day of ‘the ongoing Nakba’.

        link to mondoweiss.net

        ‘The Times, They are A- Changin’.’ ‘A Change is Gonna Come’.

      • Ludwig
        August 2, 2013, 5:57 pm

        What is a subhuman?!

        • Citizen
          August 3, 2013, 1:17 am

          @ Ludwig
          A person who is not entitled by birth to all the rights you have?

        • amigo
          August 3, 2013, 7:37 am

          “What is a subhuman?!”ludwig

          An Illegal squatter or his /her apologist.

        • Ludwig
          August 5, 2013, 1:33 pm

          Amigo. I think when you refer to Jewish settlers, it isn’t proper to call them, or anybody else as subhumans. This is what is called “dehumanization” and should be avoided in the context of fair and reasonable debate.

        • Cliff
          August 5, 2013, 2:12 pm

          Ludwig,

          You are a concern-troll.

          The settlers are bottom-feeders and thieves.

          Not subhuman but they treat Palestinians as subhuman.

        • Woody Tanaka
          August 5, 2013, 2:29 pm

          When the settlers stop their land theft and get the hell out of Palestine and stop trampling over other people and their rights, then maybe I’ll give a damn about whether someone calls them a name. Their crime is so many billions of times more serious than calling them “subhuman” that your decision to make it an issue, as opposed to making an issue out of the crimes committed by these settler/colonial criminals, that it demonstrates your questionable character.

    • talknic
      August 2, 2013, 6:05 pm

      Ludwig
      ” Once Israel made peace with Jordan, the green line disappeared because it wasn’t an armistice any longer, there was peace……. It is for this reason that we see massive building and growth all over the Land of Israel, including Judea and Samaria”

      Israel Occupied the West Bank in 1967. The Green line didn’t lay between Israel and Jordan at the time of the signing of the Peace treaty, it lay between Israel and Palestine.

    • Bumblebye
      August 2, 2013, 6:17 pm

      Earwig
      If the Green Line simply disappeared once peace was made with Jordan, then the indigenous people of the West Bank would have automatically had full citizenship and civil rights in the ‘undivided’ country. But the whole greater Israel project is about stealing the land and dispossessing its people utterly, of everything (in order to build Jewish only settlements – ethnic cleansing, much?) – not a possibility if they were equal citizens with equal rights.

      • just
        August 2, 2013, 6:24 pm

        Exactly correct, Bumblebye.

      • Ludwig
        August 2, 2013, 6:56 pm

        Bumblebye, I will not reply to you if you misuse my name. I am here to speak with respect to people. I expect you to do the same.

        • Annie Robbins
          August 3, 2013, 12:29 am

          nobody cares about the green line…..I am here to speak with respect to people

          lol

          btw, ‘not replying’ actually has a meaning. it starts by not clicking on the reply function.

        • amigo
          August 3, 2013, 7:27 am

          “Bumblebye, I will not reply to you if you misuse my name. I am here to speak with respect to people.”

          I would suggest you are the one misusing your name by attaching it to support for ethnic cleansing/war crimes/oppression and any other number of crimes committed daily by the so called light unto the nations.

          And you demand respect.

          Typical zionist delusion.

        • just
          August 3, 2013, 7:50 am

          Incisive!

          Hasbara buster extraordinaire.

        • Ellen
          August 3, 2013, 12:11 pm

          @Ludwig, It appears you are here to spout distortions and non-truths. An ultimate act of disrespect to all reading this blog.

          Bumblebye responded to you in kind.

        • Bumblebye
          August 3, 2013, 12:16 pm

          Aw, Earwig’s miffed!
          Well, when what you write isn’t a load of hasbarist cobblers, maybe then I’ll respond ‘respectfully’. Tho’ I can’t see what is respectful to anyone in a comment full of lying nonsense!

          Honestly, how else can we blow a razzberry at some of the twerps who turn up here??

    • ckg
      August 2, 2013, 9:02 pm

      Ludwig exclaims

      nobody cares about the green line because it simply does not exist.

      The dogs of justice, ICC and ICJ, certainly care about the green line.

      Release the hounds.

    • Shingo
      August 3, 2013, 10:37 am

      We have to keep in mind that the green line is an armistice line. Once Israel made peace with Jordan, the green line disappeared because it wasn’t an armistice any longer, there was peace.

      They would explain why there has been a “peace process” for 30 years – because there was peace. LOL

      Of course, if there had been peace, Iseael should have retuned to the 1948 border, ended the occupation and given up East Jerusalem.

      It is for this reason that we see massive building and growth all over the Land of Israel, including Judea and Samaria.

      The government of Isrsel disagrees. It claims it needs the settlements for security.

    • Russian Prussian
      August 4, 2013, 3:00 am

      If the green line is irrelevant then the internationally recognized borders of Israel of 1948 apply because there are no other internationally recognized borders beside the 1948 and the 1967 ones.

      But why does it matter when in a final solution of the conflict everybody can settle everywhere but vote only in one’s own country’s elections?

    • Talkback
      August 7, 2013, 6:23 am

      According to Ludwig Israel since 67 is colonializing territory outside its declared borders of 48, because the armistice line of 49 disappeared in 94 after Jordan ceded its claims to the West Bank to the Palestinians in 88.

      Oh, this is going to be fun.

      The International court of Justice:
      “The Court ascertains whether the construction of the wall has violated the above‑mentioned rules and principles. It first observes that the route of the wall as fixed by the Israeli Government includes within the “Closed Area” (between the wall and the “Green Line”) some 80 percent of the settlers living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Recalling that the Security Council described Israel’s policy of establishing settlements in that territory as a “flagrant violation” of the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Court finds that those settlements have been established in breach of international law.”
      link to icj-cij.org

  5. Krauss
    August 2, 2013, 2:14 pm

    Honestly though, how is this a sign of “seeping into the broader culture”?
    I do agree with the general premise of the title, but not with the congruency of the actual story.

    What’s in front of us are 1) someone who deeply cares about these issues since a long time ago and 2) someone who lives there for a duration of his time.

    In other words, two deeply engaged people in the issue are simply having a fight.

    • Philip Weiss
      August 2, 2013, 2:29 pm

      The fight is taking place in an American cultural setting– a vacation retreat’s folkdancing night. I believe these fights are happening all over the U.S.
      But maybe it’s not a good headline? TTB, as they used to say at a glossy magazine I worked for. Try to Beat.

      • Angel
        August 2, 2013, 3:51 pm

        Your friend did not engage you over this issue. YOU did. You’re the one who wanted to coral him, to make the point that HE was wrong to live south of the green line. You’re the typical left-wing fascist who feels so self-righteous about this point that he is looking for every opportunity to go on the offensive, in particular when no one asked for your opinion. To call your infantile behavior proof that the conflict is “seeping into American culture” is vastly overstating the importance of your role. You’d be making better use of your time if you spent it asking your Palestinian friends why they still refuse to make the most minimal concessions in response to the all-too numerous gestures already made by Israel. And leave your friends alone. Friends don’t hang out long with bigots, political or otherwise.

        • Annie Robbins
          August 3, 2013, 12:40 am

          “Your friend did not engage you over this issue. YOU did.”

          either you did not read the preface or you’re insinuating phil is not being truthful. scroll to the top:

          An anonymous friend who has summered at the same retreat community for over 50 years sent me the following vignette. I have changed some minor particulars so as to protect his/her privacy.

          side note; i’ve notice a lot more over the last year, even the more over the last 6 months, people/strangers talk a lot more about palestine/israel than they used to. they chime in, lots of people have opinions down at the corner store.

        • yrn
          August 3, 2013, 8:42 am

          I am getting more Amused

          Making up some story about an “anonymous friend”…..
          Pushing a atmosphere that this is common all around the USA.
          and here we have an Intellectual discussion.
          Why not write what did the “anonymous friend” ate for breakfast, or what dancing shoes he models. “scroll to the top:”………..

          everything runs in this section, as long as Israel is in the center…………..

        • Shingo
          August 3, 2013, 10:43 am

          You’re the typical left-wing fascist who feels so self-righteous about this point that he is looking for every opportunity to go on the offensive, in particular when no one asked for your opinion

          Yeah right. Phill is the fascist for calling out someone’s fascism.

          You must be a typical right wing fascist on that case.

        • seanmcbride
          August 3, 2013, 12:09 pm

          yrn,

          Might you be missing the big picture here?

          Most Americans and Europeans have rejected ethnic and religious nationalism as a political tool for themselves. Isn’t it likely that they are going to grow weary of the endless embittered arguments over Jewish nationalism which go round and round in neurotic circles, the same charges and counter-charges, rationalizations and justifications over and over again?

          And then what?

          Why would you expect Americans and Europeans to be more interested in your ethnic and religious nationalism than you are in theirs?

          My sense of things is that Americans and Europeans are already becoming fatigued by any controversies concerning Israel — there are many issues and topics of much greater importance for them.

        • Donald
          August 3, 2013, 1:21 pm

          “You’d be making better use of your time if you spent it asking your Palestinian friends why they still refuse to make the most minimal concessions in response to the all-too numerous gestures already made by Israel”

          Comedy gold.

        • Angel
          August 3, 2013, 1:47 pm

          That’s all you can come up with? What a pathetic response. Copout rules.

        • Donald
          August 3, 2013, 2:06 pm

          “That’s all you can come up with? What a pathetic response.”

          No, but there are plenty of people you could be reading if you wanted a serious, long, detailed response, some of them who support a 2SS and some who support a 1SS. Finkelstein, for instance, supports a 2SS and would point out that international law supports Palestinian demands for negotiating on the basis of the 67 lines. And nobody except the Israeli government and other idiots thinks that Israel had any right to build settlements. Israel shouldn’t be expanding settlements while ostensibly negotiating for peace. The entire issue didn’t start in 67 either–it started with the ethnic cleansing of 48–if the Palestinians agree to a 2SS with slightly adjusted 67 borders they’ve already conceded 78 percent of their homeland. You’d know all this if you cared to, and I just wasted a couple of minutes typing it out for someone who clearly doesn’t care about Palestinian rights.

        • Angel
          August 3, 2013, 2:46 pm

          Wow. A fountain of knowledge we have here. So kind of you to waste a few of your precious minutes to enlighten us mere ignorant mortals. Except that you clearly have no clue about what you’re saying, parroting as you do the factually-challenged Palestinian narrative. To make it short given that your minutes are so precious: 1. international law in no way “supports Palestinian demands to start on the 1967 lines”. Armed conflicts all through history have always ended the same way: through peace negotiations between the parties involved. The Palestinians lost every war their Arab brothers foolishly launched on their behalf and with their support. They were the aggressors. They lost. End of story. They are in no position to make demands. Ask the Japanese and Germans how it feels to be defeated aggressors. 2. As long as the status of the disputed territories remain … in dispute, Israel has every right to do what it wants with these territories. To wit: it annexed in full the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, but it kept the status of the West Bank and Gaza (the latter until 2005 when it unilaterally left it) open in the vain hope that an agreement could be reached with the Palestinians to have the 2SS become a reality. The Palestinians have never conceded anything, and that’s the problem. They lost land because they tried to win it all by force. But instead of learning their lessons, they keep making the same unrealistic demands, with the same predictable results. And in the meantime, Israel keeps building cities. The only way for the Palestinians to stop that trend is to sign a peace treaty now. Once their territory has been delineated by mutual agreement, there will be no more Israeli construction on what has finally become their territory. But until then, it is not. It’s up to them. it’s been up to them since 1967…

        • RoHa
          August 3, 2013, 11:45 pm

          ” the all-too numerous gestures already made by Israel.”

          I presume you are referring to the Israeli equivalent of the gestures the British make with two fingers and the Americans with one.

        • Shingo
          August 4, 2013, 4:21 am

          1. international law in no way “supports Palestinian demands to start on the 1967 lines”.

          Again, Israel tried to present that argument before the ICJ and was defeated 15-0.

          Armed conflicts all through history have always ended the same way: through peace negotiations between the parties involved.

          False. WWII did not. Not did the Iraq invasion of Kuwait. There’s a simple reason for that.

          The customary international law contained in Articles 7 & 8 of the Fourth Geneva Convention does not allow the Occupying Power to negotiate any special agreements with the local authorities that would impair the rights of any protected population safeguarded under the terms of the Convention. The negotiation of a cession of territory during a belligerent occupation would also violate Article 52 and 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties and render the agreement null and void.

          Resolution 242 contains a logical sequence of events in fulfillment of Charter principles: a) Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; and only then b) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency.

          The wording of Resolution 242 cannot eliminate the existence of a belligerent state as a result of an occupation. The Geneva Conventions regarding a belligerent state of occupation apply to all, not just some, of the territory captured in 1967. So long as that belligerent state exists, no valid agreement on cession of territory can be concluded between the occupied and the occupier.

          The Palestinians lost every war their Arab brothers foolishly launched on their behalf and with their support.

          True, but the ones in which Israel was the aggressor . 1948 and 1967, is what led to Israel stealing land.

          Ask the Japanese and Germans how it feels to be defeated aggressors.

          So one minute you say conflicts have to be resolved through negotiation, the next you are saying the loser has no rights to negotiate.

          Too funny.

          2. As long as the status of the disputed territories remain … in dispute, Israel has every right to do what it wants with these territories.

          False and false

          1. The territories are not disputed. Only Israel considers then disputed and even then, they only began to refer to them as disputed once they thought they could get away with building illegal settlers.

          2. As explained above Israel is required to withdraw from the occupied territories before the Palestinians are require to end their state if belligerence resistance.

          To wit: it annexed in full the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, but it kept the status of the West Bank and Gaza (the latter until 2005 when it unilaterally left it) open in the vain hope that an agreement could be reached with the Palestinians to have the 2SS become a reality.

          False. It didn’t try to annex the West Bank as that would have threatened Israel’s demographic Jewish majority.

          As Levi Eskol famously said, “we want the dowry, not the bride”

          The Palestinians have never conceded anything, and that’s the problem.

          Apart from 50% of their territory.

          They lost land because they tried to win it all by force.

          False again. They played no role in the ’67 war.

          they keep making the same unrealistic demands, with the same predictable results.

          1. the results are supported on international law
          2. the reason they are considered unrealistic is because Israel doesn’t want to abide by international law, and the US has protected Israel from facing the consequences.

          And in the meantime, Israel keeps building cities.

          In violation of the Geneva Conventions. The could just as easily be firing rockets at Israel and insisting they will continue until they negotiate an end to the attacks.

        • Shingo
          August 4, 2013, 4:35 am

          Don’t worry Angel, I shredded your Hasbara in detail below.

        • Donald
          August 4, 2013, 8:53 am

          I find arguing with morally deficient people pretty frustrating and tedious, Angel, especially when they make historically illiterate and self-serving analogies and are unable to acknowledge any wrongdoing by their own side.

          Incidentally, not that it should matter, but everything I said could be endorsed by an honest liberal Zionist. (There are some.) Though again, there’s no particular reason why one should rely solely on self-critical Israeli historians to tell the truth about the history.

        • James Canning
          August 4, 2013, 1:21 pm

          Great post, Shingo. Most European diplomats seem to think the best way forward is to go with 1967 borders. Even if it takes many years for Israel to accept them.

        • Elliot
          August 4, 2013, 3:11 pm

          “Oh, no one cares about the Green Line.”
          The arrogance in B’s retort is classic Zionism:
          “You American Jew need not worry your little, diasporic head over these Israeli affairs. Let me assure you that, over there, in the center-of-all-things-Jewish, nobody I know or care about gives two hoots about this so I guess I don’t care at all what you think. Just keep up the good work with all that money and political muscle you provide for me and my settler buddies. And shut up about stuff that is none of your business.

      • just
        August 2, 2013, 5:19 pm

        They ARE happening. I have witnessed it myself, finally and thankfully.

      • Bumblebye
        August 2, 2013, 6:31 pm

        Hip I/P Hop?

        • Taxi
          August 3, 2013, 12:05 am

          Folk Dancers At Town Hall Duke It Out Over Palestine.

          A Fight On the Dance Floor Over Palestine.

          Folk Dancer Steps On Toes Of Settler In NY Town Hall

          Israel-Palestine War Hits USA Dance Floor.

  6. Clif Brown
    August 2, 2013, 2:49 pm

    Anything can be accepted once one takes up the us vs. them mindset. The Old South was filled with those who defended slavery without a thought as “our way of life” etc. etc.

    My analogy would be to the submarine crew. Once inside with the last hatch closed, you exist in a world in itself, safe from the great pressure of the water around you. The ocean contains your environment but the crew is oblivious to it, can’t see it, can’t feel it and there isn’t a drop of salt water allowed into the sub.

    But carry the analogy further – the sub cannot stay under indefinitely. At some point it must be resupplied. The U.S. is the reliable re-supplier of the Israeli submarine. Until that changes, that submarine crew will continue to be in a world of its own.

  7. Chu
    August 2, 2013, 2:54 pm

    better to walk away and avoid the zionauts.

    bad new for Zionists and Israel:
    link to bbc.co.uk

    Evolution does not favour selfish people, according to new research.
    This challenges a previous theory which suggested it was preferable to put yourself first. Instead, it pays to be co-operative, shown in a model of “the prisoner’s dilemma”, a scenario of game theory – the study of strategic decision-making.

    • CloakAndDagger
      August 3, 2013, 6:27 am

      @ Chu

      Interesting BBC article. I took note of the following:

      He argued that it was not groups or organisms that adapt and evolve, but individual genes and each living organism’s body was a survival machine for its genes.

      Prof Andrew Coleman from Leicester University explains that this new work suggests that co-operation helps a group evolve, but does not argue against the selfish gene theory of evolution.

      Rather, he adds, it helps selfish genes survive as they reap the awards of inhabiting co-operative groups.

      This explains why Israel continues to survive.

    • American
      August 3, 2013, 1:53 pm

      Everybody has a theory…..but what evolution actually shows is survival of a species, individual or human group depends on it’s ability to ‘adapt’ to changing environments and realities.
      I see nothing in zionism or Israel to suggest they can ‘adapt’.
      I think there are many examples that show that the ‘selfish gene’ eventually works against a group’s survival if it infringes on others survival.
      It will always be challenged by another group’s selfish or survival gene.

  8. American
    August 2, 2013, 3:40 pm

    Speaking of ‘seeping’.
    I heard the dumbest, most unrelated to anything, ‘news blip’ on MSNBC this am included in the regular news of daily car wrecks and etc……a story about how a bedding store in Israel let a woman ‘sleep it off’ on a mattress overnight in the store.
    These little ‘nice Israel’ blips being inserted in the daily msm news coverage are I suppose part of Isr’s new campaign against being delegitimized in the US.
    No doubt the I-Firstdom operatives have sent memos of cute stories and how often Israel is to be mentioned favorably every day to all the networks.

  9. lyn117
    August 2, 2013, 3:54 pm

    I wish I could remain calm when discussing the subject.

    People who are so immersed in a myth probably aren’t open to discussion either. While my definition of “liberal Zionist” is someone who believes in reconciliation, partial truth and keeping apartheid forever, at least they tend to be more open to facts and discussion.

    I don’t know if “B” might also have known that Palestinians have been living there for 10,000 years. In a sense, he’s right, the green line doesn’t matter. Just trying to think of ways to get through to a person such as him & get him to see the basic injustice of his claim, if not the falseness. But I’d probably just lose it too.

    • Angel
      August 3, 2013, 1:54 pm

      Interesting. “Palestinians have been living there for 10,000 years”. What a feat, especially considering that they didn’t even exist at the time, and would pop up (and the point can be argued) at the earliest around the 8th century in the form of Arab invaders (their direct ancestors). It’s always astonishing to see how the most crassly ignorant people feel the most compelled to share their lack of knowledge with everyone. In this day and age, ignorance is no excuse. It is intimately tied to laziness and smugness. A simple search on Google and Wikipedia would have taught you a few historical facts preventing you from writing something so ridiculous.

      • amigo
        August 4, 2013, 8:15 am

        Angel “It’s always astonishing to see how the most crassly ignorant people feel the most compelled to share their lack of knowledge with everyone. In this day and age, ignorance is no excuse. It is intimately tied to laziness and smugness”

        Thanks for sharing your CV with us.

        Angel.A simple search on Google and Wikipedia would have taught you a few historical facts preventing you from writing something so ridiculous.

        Haven,t seen evidence in your posts of the use of Google or Wikipedia.

        Not once in your 6 comments to date did you display evidence of scholarly endeavor.

        Move on Angel , nothing to see here except some facts that might cause you to break out into Hasbara pimples.

      • James Canning
        August 4, 2013, 1:40 pm

        @Angel – - Did American “Indians” exist 10,000 years ago? Iroquois did not. Nez Perce did not. Etc etc etc. But their ancestors lived in “America”, 10,000 years ago.

        • Angel
          August 4, 2013, 1:54 pm

          James, thanks. That was my point, precisely. No one on the planet can claim any type of ancestry, be it geographic or biological, that goes that far back, let alone in the uncharted territories of 10,000 years ago. Hence the utterly ridiculous nature of imbecilic statements like “Palestinians have been living there for 10,000 years”. Any idiot can claim to descend directly from Cro-Magnons bipeds, and they will always be right. Apparently some of them are still alive among us.

        • Shingo
          August 5, 2013, 3:00 am

          Hence the utterly ridiculous nature of imbecilic statements like “Palestinians have been living there for 10,000 years”.

          Surly the claim that the Jews gave ownership or land deeds to Pslestine from 3000 years ago must be equally imbecilic.

          Right Angel?

        • Cliff
          August 5, 2013, 2:16 pm

          Its good to see a Zionist fanatic who doesn’t think Jews have a singular ancestry that can be traced back to the primordial ooze in Palestine.

          Or were you just saying that Arabs don’t go back 10,000 years and Jews do?

          Most Jews are the product of conversion.

          You have no claim to Historic Palestine beyond your own religious delusions.

          The Palestinian people are an amalgam of all the people who have ever lived in that land.

          European thieves drove them out and have been attempting to rewrite history with the Zionist LIE that there is some intrinsic Jewish world-wide connection.

      • Ecru
        August 5, 2013, 5:41 am

        “It’s always astonishing to see how the most crassly ignorant people feel the most compelled to share their lack of knowledge with everyone”

        Oh the irony of that statement.

        The Palestinians are the “direct descendants” of 8th century Arab invaders? When EVERY archaeological, historical and genetic study yet undertaken has clearly shown they’re an acculturated NATIVE population? One that, on a genetic level clusters WITHIN Middle Eastern Jewish populations, and is CLOSER to those populations than those Jewish populations are to each other? This has been settled for DECADES – how did you miss it? Perhaps because you wanted to?

  10. dimadok
    August 2, 2013, 3:55 pm

    I was alarmed for a moment.

  11. mcohen
    August 2, 2013, 6:54 pm

    Philip

    you are also b,only you are standing on the other side of the green line,and have been doing so for 3000 years
    you should spend more time on the edge where insights are sharper and solutions easier to come by

    there are 3 sides to a coin,heads,tails,and the edge,the edge the hand of G-d both seen and unseen

  12. James Canning
    August 2, 2013, 7:10 pm

    “No one cares about the Green Line”. Total rubbish. Bravo.

  13. RoHa
    August 3, 2013, 2:08 am

    Where is Mooser? We need his insights into folk-dancing.

    • Donald
      August 3, 2013, 1:23 pm

      He pops up at other blogs. I saw him a few days ago at “Crooked Timber”.

      • Bumblebye
        August 3, 2013, 5:23 pm

        He should be commanded to return here, pronto! Surely had enough time-out by now?

      • Citizen
        August 4, 2013, 1:44 pm

        Here’s a comment that popped up on Crooked Timber that sure looks like an analogy to Hasbara ops to me:

        The Politics of Payday Loans
        by HENRY on AUGUST 4, 2013
        Via Michael Froomkin, this Pro Publica piece is well worth reading.

        As the Rev. Susan McCann stood outside a public library in Springfield, Mo., last year, she did her best to persuade passers-by to sign an initiative to ban high-cost payday loans. But it was difficult to keep her composure, she remembers. A man was shouting in her face. He and several others had been paid to try to prevent people from signing. “Every time I tried to speak to somebody,” she recalls, “they would scream, ‘Liar! Liar! Liar! Don’t listen to her!’” Such confrontations, repeated across the state, exposed something that rarely comes into view so vividly: the high-cost lending industry’s ferocious effort to stay legal and stay in business.

  14. W.Jones
    August 3, 2013, 2:14 am

    One could tell from his first response that he was pro-settler. He said the Green Line did not matter. He was living south of East Jerusalem, so for him it makes no difference. At that point in the conversation it is not worth trying to figure out whether he does or does not, for all practical purposes.

    Your assertion was good: “*I* care about the Green Line, and so do millions of people.” One of the main rules of thumb is when you get into a argument or could, then to avoid raising one’s voice at all. I sometimes even try to seem a bit bored or quiet (minus the words). That way you don’t have to feel you overreacted.

    Ideally you can have a friendly subject about something you will not argue about, and then go into the topic you might disagree about. One non-Zionist humanitarian group had a “play” discussion where three people on a team went against three others at a fake dinner conversation, being given opposite sides of this topic. It was enjoyable, and probably helpful. You may consider trying it.

    The way you approach it of course has to do with your goal in the conversation too.

  15. Balfour
    August 3, 2013, 2:02 pm

    “Our people have been there 3000 years”

    I want to know how many U.S. citizens who make Aliyah to Israel also renounce their American citizenship: if not, why not?

  16. Rusty Pipes
    August 3, 2013, 6:20 pm

    When these types of conversations take place at community dances that don’t include Israeli folk dancing, the issue will be seeping even further into American culture.

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