Gaza: Crushed between Israel and Egypt

Israel/Palestine
on 113 Comments
An empty smuggling tunnels in Rafah, Gaza. (Photo: Marius Arnesen)

An empty tunnel in Rafah, Gaza. (Photo: Marius Arnesen)

The furor over the recent chemical weapons attack in Syria has overshadowed disturbing events to the south, as Egypt’s generals wage a quiet war of attrition against the Hamas leadership in Gaza.

Hamas has found itself increasingly isolated, politically and geographically, since the Egyptian army ousted the country’s first democratically elected president, Mohammed Morsi, in early July.

Hamas is paying the price for its close ties to Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamic movement that briefly took power through the ballot box following the revolutionary protests that toppled dictator Hosni Mubarak in 2011.

Since the army launched its coup three months ago, jailing the Brotherhood’s leadership and last week outlawing the movement’s activities and freezing its assets, Hamas has become a convenient scapegoat for all signs of unrest.

Hamas is blamed for the rise of militant Islamic groups in the Sinai, many drawn from disgruntled local Bedouin tribes, which have been attacking soldiers, government institutions and shipping through the Suez canal. The army claims a third of the Islamists it has killed in recent operations originated from Gaza.

At an army press conference last month, several Palestinians “confessed”  to smuggling arms from Gaza into Sinai, while an Egyptian commander, Ahmed Mohammed Ali, accused Hamas of “targeting the Egyptian army through ambushes.”

The Egyptian media have even tied Hamas to a car bombing in Cairo last month which nearly claimed the life of the new interior minister, Mohammed Ibrahim.

Lurking in the shadows is the army’s fear that, should the suppressed Muslim Brotherhood choose the path of violence, it may find a useful ally in a strong Hamas.

A crackdown on the Palestinian Islamic movement has been all but inevitable, and on a scale even Mr Mubarak would have shrunk from. The Egyptian army has intensified the blockade along Egypt’s single short border with Gaza, replicating that imposed by Israel along the other three.

Over the past weeks, the army has destroyed hundreds of tunnels through which Palestinians smuggle fuel and other necessities in short supply because of Israel’s siege.

Egypt has bulldozed homes on its side to establish a “buffer zone”, as Israel did inside Gaza a decade ago when it still occupied the enclave directly, to prevent more tunnels being dug.

That has plunged Gaza’s population into hardship, and dealt a harsh blow to the tax revenues Hamas raises on the tunnel trade. Unemployment is rocketing and severe fuel shortages mean even longer power cuts.

Similarly, Gaza’s border crossing with Egypt at Rafah – the only access to the outside for most students, medical patients and business people – is now rarely opened, even to the Hamas leadership.

And the Egyptian navy has been hounding Palestinians trying to fish off Gaza’s coast, in a zone already tightly delimited by Israel. Egypt has been firing at boats and arresting crews close to its territorial waters, citing security.

Fittingly, a recent cartoon in a Hamas newspaper showed Gaza squeezed between pincers – one arm Israel, the other Egypt. Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesperson, was recently quoted saying Egypt was “trying to outmatch the Israelis in tormenting and starving our people”.

Hamas is short of regional allies. Its leader Khaled Meshal fled his Syrian base early in the civil war, alienating Iran in the process. Other recent supporters, such as Turkey and Qatar, are also keeping their distance.

Hamas fears mounting discontent in Gaza, and particularly a demonstration planned for November modelled on this summer’s mass protests in Egypt that helped to bring down Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas’ political rival, Fatah – and the Palestinian Authority, based in the West Bank – are reported to be behind the new protest movement.

The prolonged efforts by Fatah and Hamas to strike a unity deal are now a distant memory. In late August the PA annnounced it would soon be taking “painful decisions” about Hamas, assumed to be a reference to declaring it a “rogue entity” and thereby cutting off funding.

The PA sees in Hamas’ isolation and its own renewed ties to the Egyptian leadership a chance to take back Gaza.

As ever, Israel is far from an innocent bystander.

After the unsettling period of Muslim Brotherhood rule, the Egyptian and Israeli armies – their strategic interests always closely aligned – have restored security cooperation. According to media reports, Israel even lobbied Washington following the July coup to ensure Egypt continued to receive generous US aid handouts – as with Israel, mostly in the form of military assistance.

Israel has turned a blind eye to Egypt pouring troops, as well as tanks and helicopters, into Sinai in violation of the 1979 peace treaty. Israel would rather Egypt mop up the Islamist threat on their shared doorstep.

The destruction of the tunnels, meanwhile, has sealed off the main conduit by which Hamas armed itself against future Israeli attacks.

Israel is also delighted to see Fatah and Hamas sapping their energies in manoeuvring against each other. Political unity would have strengthened the Palestinians’ case with the international community; divided, they can be easily played off against the other.

That cynical game is in full swing. A week ago Israel agreed for the first time in six years to allow building materials into Gaza for private construction, and to let in more fuel. A newly approved pipe will double the water supply to Gaza.

These measures are designed to bolster the PA’s image in Gaza, as payback for returning to the current futile negotiations, and undermine support for Hamas.

With Egypt joining the blockade, Israel now has much firmer control over what goes in and out, allowing it to punish Hamas while improving its image abroad by being generous with “humanitarian” items for the wider population.

Gaza is dependent again on Israel’s good favor. But even Israeli analysts admit the situation is far from stable. Sooner or later, something must give. And Hamas may not be the only ones caught in the storm.

About Jonathan Cook

Jonathan Cook won the Martha Gellhorn Special Prize for Journalism. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel’s Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His new website is jonathan-cook.net.

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113 Responses

  1. OlegR
    October 2, 2013, 10:25 am

    /That cynical game is in full swing. A week ago Israel agreed for the first time in six years to allow building materials into Gaza for private construction, and to let in more fuel. A newly approved pipe will double the water supply to Gaza./

    We block supplies and it’s called a brutal siege on innocent people.

    We allow those same supplies and it’s called a cynical game.

    Dude make up your mind.

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 2, 2013, 12:54 pm

      “We block supplies and it’s called a brutal siege on innocent people.”

      No, it’s not just “called” that, zio. It IS a brutal siege.

      “We allow those same supplies and it’s called a cynical game.”

      Yes, because you people have no right to do any of these crimes to the Palestinians in Gaza.

      • OlegR
        October 2, 2013, 4:29 pm

        /We allow those same supplies and it’s called a cynical game/

        I didn’t know that allowing supplies to pass into enemy territory was considered a crime.
        I guess we should close it down then.

      • Citizen
        October 3, 2013, 4:18 am

        @ OlegR
        The Israeli siege on the entire Gaza community is the crime.

      • OlegR
        October 3, 2013, 4:29 am

        Oh go cry a river to the Egyptians and their defender here Taxi.

      • talknic
        October 3, 2013, 5:49 am

        OlegR “I didn’t know that allowing supplies to pass into enemy territory was considered a crime”

        There’s also a lot you need to pretend not to know..

        Israel, Egypt and Jordan were High Contracting Powers in ’67. The Geneva Conventions apply (confirmed in UNSC res, 242, 476 and dozens of others). So too the Laws of War and the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States regarding the inadmissibility of acquiring territory by war ( confirmed in UNSC res 242 and dozens of others )

        Laws of War link to avalon.law.yale.edu Art. 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.

        GC IV link to icrc.org Art. 55. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate.

        Art. 56. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining, with the cooperation of national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory , with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics (i.e., adequate sanitation & clean water)

        Art. 59. If the whole or part of the population of an occupied territory is inadequately supplied, the Occupying Power shall agree to relief schemes on behalf of the said population, and shall facilitate them by all the means at its disposal.
        (my emphasis)

      • OlegR
        October 3, 2013, 5:55 am

        Oh dear God another Hostage copycat.
        And a poor one at that.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 6:51 am

        Oh dear God another Hostage copycat.

        Yes, all that evidence and factual data is overkill to counter your hasbara gutter trash.

      • talknic
        October 3, 2013, 8:05 am

        @OlegR link to mondoweiss.net = fail to challenge or refute. Instead attempts to insult = another empty Hasbarrister

        BTW “I guess we should close it down then.”

        Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907
        link to avalon.law.yale.edu
        SECTION II
        HOSTILITIES
        CHAPTER I
        Art. 23.

        In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -
        To declare that no quarter will be given;

        To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
        ( fletchettes, cluster bombs, white phosphorus on a school in DAYLIGHT and where there NO IDF TROOPS to use it as camouflage ) my emphasis

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 3, 2013, 8:07 am

        “I guess we should close it down then.”

        No, YOU should go back to Russia, where you belong, and leave the Palestinians in THEIR land.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 6:03 pm

        No one supports Taxi’s position here on Egypt Oleg.

        I am quietly praying that whatever they slipped into her drink in Cairo will wear off and she’ll return to get senses.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 9:59 pm

        You do not speak on behalf of everyone in the world, shingo. You are not the Egypt expert – unless you think that drinking Fosters makes you one.

        I have arrived at accepting our differences on Egypt. Maybe you will one day. Maybe not.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 10:21 pm

        “Oh go cry a river to the Egyptians and their defender here Taxi.”

        Only the dead don’t weep.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 10:26 pm

        You do not speak on behalf of everyone in the world, shingo.

        True, just 95% of them,

        You are not the Egypt expert – unless you think that drinking Fosters makes you one.

        Nor does smoking Shishas make you an expert. What we do know is that a few months ago you wee swearing that there was no a coup and now even your own links say it is.

        I have arrived at accepting our differences on Egypt. Maybe you will one day.

        I have accepted them Taxi, but I can’t say I thrilled with you being in the Zionist camp.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 10:44 pm

        “True, just 95% of them”

        Over-confidence will get you everywhere… in your own lunchtime. Your statistic? Link it or you’ve blinked.

        “I have accepted them Taxi, but I can’t say I thrilled with you being in the Zionist camp.”

        If you truly accept them, ie you’re in a neutral place about it, you would be neither thrilled nor not thrilled. And apparently, you’re not “thrilled”. So, sorry to say but l think you still have work to do on that ‘acceptance’ thing.

        Shingo, I really have no problem with you supporting the Moslem Brotherhood. I accept and respect your choice.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 11:26 pm

        Over-confidence will get everywhere… in your own lunchtime. Your statistic? Link it or you’ve blinked.

        It’s not over confidence, I was being conservative. It’s closer to 99%. If 67% of Egyptians disprove of the coup, then less than 30 million support it.

        If you truly accept them, ie you’re in a neutral place about it, you would be neither thrilled nor not thrilled.

        I am neutral about your transition into Zionist camp Taxi. I have heard and seen enough Egyptian coup supporters to understand that there has been a counter revolution in Egypt and that many are happy about it.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 4:50 am

        “It’s closer to 99%”
        No link for the above? Then it sure looks like you blinked with a mouth full of BS, shingo. Bravado fibbing is for propagandists and brats, not for the serious analyst.

        “I am neutral about your transition into Zionist camp Taxi.”

        You are not “neutral”, my friend. You still passionately despise my POV (check your uncalled for personal attacks on me on this thread). You emphatically support Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood. Morsi was a USA-israel agent: one of the major reasons why he was ousted. Good riddance. Your absurd accusation about my “transition into Zionist camp” only makes your argument look facile and intended to smear. My archives prove the falsity of your assertions.

        Sorry that you’re still heartbroken over the fall of the moslem brotherhood in Egypt. I’m “quietly praying” you’ll get over it.

        The two major enemies of Palestine and the greater mideast are zionists and islamists – one day you’ll understand this. Just because you’re misguided about your support for the Moslem Brotherhood does not make me think that you’re against the Palestinians, actually. I respect your POV and support for the islamists – I will not stoop to smearing you with falsities by announcing that your “transition into Zionist camp” is appalling.

        You oversimplify politics when you describe it in black and white. There is white, there is black, and there is also gray in politics – and in life. One has to be adept at analyzing all three shades before one can be taken seriously.

        I’m happy the moslem brotherhood lost Egypt and Syria. So are the many millions of progressive revolutionaries of the mideast, including in Palestine – them upright people who risked life and limb to make it so.

        I’d be happy to debate the definition of a ‘revolution’ with your good self, but it really isn’t worth my time to debate the polemic between us regarding your support of the Moslem Brotherhood. You like them, fine. Enjoy supporting them then; just don’t get mad cuz I won’t be following you on this point. Wild horses couldn’t drag me to where you and the Moslem Brotherhood stand.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 5:39 am

        You emphatically support Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood.

        Stop the uncalled for personal attacks on me on this thread. I have no time for Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood, but they were democratically elected and IMO, they represented the first foray for Egypt into a democratic political system.

        Morsi was a USA-israel agent: one of the major reasons why he was ousted.

        Any link for the above? What a joke!! The US was sending billions to the military, not Morsi. He was ousted because the Saudis wanted him gone and the Egyptian military did as it was told.

        For Christ’s sake, Ehud Batak was demanding the world they should back El-Sisi’s coup and you’re telling us that Morsi was the USA-israel agent?

        Talk about Orwellian thinking!

        Talk about facile and conspiracy lunacy. You sound like those pro Mubarak kooks who claim the DHS has been overtaken by the MB.

        You oversimplify politics when you describe it in black and white.

        That’s because when you call it like it is, it makes your position look ridiculous. Again you’re resorting to the tactics of the Zionist camp, who keep insisting that the situation in the I/P conflict is “complicated”.

        Tis is not complicated. Even if you hate the MB, the fact that they have been banned in Egypt, and the fact that Morsi has been detained on charges of trying to escape from prison during the Mubarak era tells you all you need to know about this counter revolution.

        Even Walid can see through the BS, and can explain it in a few short sentences, yet all you can do is impotently bleat that it’s not black and white.

        How pathetic!

        I’m happy the moslem brotherhood lost Egypt and Syria. So are the many millions of progressive revolutionaries of the mideast, including in Palestine – them upright people who risked life and limb to make it so.

        Actually, the progressive revolutionaries in Egypt have been cast aside and are kicking themselves as they realize they were useful tools for the Saudis, and have now been consigned to irrelevance. It does make me laugh how you denigrate the left wing in one thread, then sing their praises in another – whatever serves your disjointed and incoherent narrative at the time.

        You like them, fine. Enjoy supporting them then; just don’t get mad cuz I won’t be following you on this point

        You can’t even bring yourself to justify the coup – you;’re position has been reduced to just parroting how bad the MB were.

        I know you don’t like them, you’ve chosen your poison and you’ve opted for Salafist/Saudi/US backed , tyrannical fascists.

        As for Syria, the MB were the more moderate of the jihadists. They didn’t lose to Assad, they lost to your team – the organ eating/head chopping Salafists, who are in turn losing to Assad.

        I guess Mazel tov is in order.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 5:58 am

        BTW. I have to laugh at how you accuse Morsi of being a US agent when it was El Sisi who was trained at the U.S. Army War College

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 7:59 am

        And I have to weep at your dedicated loyalty to the moslem brotherhood. So sad.

        Morsi being the poodle of USA/israel/qatar and Turkey, is a fact, Shingo. But of course, because I’m relaying it as messenger, you refuse to acknowledge the message. Amazing that you forget how McCain and Graham went to Egypt to bully the Egyptians into releasing their beloved Morsi – and that’s just one instance of many where the USA tried to have their poodle released from the kennels. Here’s just one link from thousands that show USA’s support of Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood:
        link to examiner.com

        Why don’t you link me to some fact sheets that show that Sisi is an American or israeli “agent”. Your breathless opinion and conspiracy theories don’t count for facts. Israel giving Sisi categorical verbal approval (propagandist kiss of death in real terms) does not count. Give me the facts on Sisi. Pure and simple. Realpolitic maneuvers doesn’t count as evidence either (nature of the beast in politics). Show me Sisi documents that demonstrate his alignment with israel-usa; documents that show him as being against the Egyptian people. The Sinai situation is an Egyptian national security issue, not an israeli one – though, like I said earlier, its unintended consequences benefit israel, unfortunately – just for the time being though.

        In other words, Shingo, please provide cold (and unemotional) evidence to your assertions – your opinion is getting repetitive and rather stale. Show me where Sisi is putting the interests of America/israel/saudi arabia before the interests of the Egyptian people. Cuz that’s what a political “agent” does: puts illicit cash in pocket, also puts the interests of his pimps above all else. The onus is on you to “show me the money”!

        Take a page from Hostage’s style of debate: provide verifiable documentation when accusing someone of malpractice or crimes.

        I’d really love to read an Egypt post by you that doesn’t include a conspiracy theory and that just sticks to the facts.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 4, 2013, 4:15 pm

        Stop the uncalled for personal attacks on me on this thread.

        shingo, i’m really not getting how you can consider, interpreting your position ‘support Morsi and the MB’ as a personal attack when you sling around insulting taxi as a zionist supporter repeatedly (over and over and over, picking a fight), referencing ‘transition to zionist camp’ etc. . you started this name calling (and accusations of zionism towards taxi is way way way below the belt) and it’s a shitty way to argue knowing taxi is an ardent critic of zionism and israel. it’s below the belt. and now you scream victim of a personal attack?

        stop your mudslinging everyone. arguing your positions is one thing but making these kinds of arguments so personal is really disconcerting for me, coming from the both of you.

        i don’t want to get into this mudslinging or this egypt argument but can we stop from taking it to this level?

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 4:42 pm

        My apologies Annie ,

        My claims to victim good were a feeble attempt at sarcasm.

        As for being below the belt , I find Taxi’s flippant dismissal of the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza vulgar and beyond the pale.

        Had these measures taken place under Mubarak or Morsi, she would undoubtedly have condemned them. Unreservedly. But because she has sided with the brutal military regime in Egypt and isn’t honest enough to admit that a counter revolutionary took place, she’s dismissed their plight as merely unfortunate.

        She’s also resorted to the justification that you deserve what you get when you back the wrong horse.

        And you would have to agree that such justifications and disregard for human life sounds distinctly Zionist.

    • eljay
      October 2, 2013, 12:56 pm

      >> We block supplies and it’s called a brutal siege on innocent people.
      >> We allow those same supplies and it’s called a cynical game.

      Blocking / unblocking the shipment of supplies depending on what is politically advantageous is a cynical game.

      But perhaps in Israel’s case we’ll be proven wrong when Israel declares that it will never again block the shipment of supplies to Gaza.

      • OlegR
        October 3, 2013, 4:32 am

        /But perhaps in Israel’s case we’ll be proven wrong when Israel declares that it will never again block the shipment of supplies to Gaza./

        It will happen the moment Hamas promises (and delivers)
        never to take another shot at Israel nor allow anyone else to do the same.BTW they were behaving pretty well since Pillar of Cloud hence the
        current inflow of supplies from our side.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 6:09 pm

        It will happen the moment Hamas promises (and delivers)
        never to take another shot at Israel nor allow anyone else to do the same.BTW they were behaving pretty well since Pillar of Cloud hence the
        current inflow of supplies from our side.

        Bullshit. They were very good before Cast Lead, but your fascist stage broke the ceaefirr because it was going too well and you didn't want to re-negotiate an extension to it (it was about to expire), because Hamas were benefitting politically from it.

        Wikileaks revealed that Israel had planned all along to sabotage the ceasefires for that very reason and internal Israrli documents show the blockade has nothing to do with security but economic warfare.

      • Donald
        October 3, 2013, 6:37 pm

        “BTW they were behaving pretty well since Pillar of Cloud hence the
        current inflow of supplies from our side.”

        I never get used to the unconscious double standards of Israelis and many Americans. The mere thought of BDS, which wouldn’t be anywhere near as stringent, drives Israel supporters into a frenzy, but they take for granted their “right” to impose sanctions on Gaza, just as Americans, including liberals, think it’s perfectly fine to enforce harsh sanctions on Iran.

      • eljay
        October 3, 2013, 6:44 pm

        >> It will happen the moment Hamas promises (and delivers) never to take another shot at Israel nor allow anyone else to do the same.

        Like I said.

  2. Theo
    October 2, 2013, 11:35 am

    I certainly hope one day those egyptian generals will pay heavily for their treacherous action against their arab brothers.

    This is the problem of the ME, each group, tribe, religious community, nationality, etc. fight eachother, instead of concentrating their power on outside enemies, and they certainly have a few. The hegemony of Eretz Israel, the new colonial intentions of France and GB, and above all, the empire building by the USA, just to name the most important ones.
    Did the arabs unite, they could be one of the greatest powers on this globe and that is exactly what the west and Israel want to avoid at all costs.

    • JustJessetr
      October 2, 2013, 1:50 pm

      “Did the arabs unite, they could be one of the greatest powers on this globe…”.

      That sounds a lot like Pan-Arabism, which went out with Nasser. Whatever the West did to undermine that movement, tribalism and religious sectarianism would have done it anyway.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 2:51 am

        “That sounds a lot like Pan-Arabism, which went out with Nasser.”

        That’s an outdated statement. There is currently a huge pan-Arab revival taking place across the Arab word; except, of course, in the zionist Gulf oil countries (minus the Sultanate of Oman). Pan-Arabists even have their own TV news station, one of the most popular news stations in the Arab world: Al Mayadeen.
        link to almayadeen.net
        (Too bad it broadcasts in Arabic only, but I hear they’re presently setting up for an English version).

      • Walid
        October 3, 2013, 4:57 am

        Great TV station, Taxi, but it’s operating on a shoestring budget, so I doubt it will be launching an English version anytime soon. It took forever for Jazeera with hundreds of millions of dollars backing it to do it and it’s only now that it has been allowed to break into the US market because of Libya and Syria. Most of the pros at Mayadeen including its founder are Jazeera vets. Good honest reporting and the only one carrying the torch for the Palestinians. For Mayadeen live:

        link to almayadeen.net

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 5:33 am

        Walid,

        According to my friend (ex-aljazeera PR exec), who is very close to a Mayadeen editor, Al Mayadeen are working towards setting up Al Mayadeen-English, not so it can hit the lucrative American market, but to spread the pan-Arab message to internet English speakers. Message before profit, has so far been Al Mayadeen’s message and MO. Al Mayadeen-English is not launching ‘tomorrow’, but the project is definitely in the works. My friend says they’ll make faster advances on it once Al Maydeen roots its presence more firmly in the Arab media world, ie raises its viewership to optimum in the gulf region. Yes, that’s quiet a challenge, considering the suffocating censorship of the Arab Gulf regimes on their own media, also including impositions of internet censorship on their public at large.

    • ziusudra
      October 6, 2013, 12:40 am

      Greetings Theo,
      …. did the Arabs unite, they would be…….
      Theo, we remember the Sarazen conquest of 633AD.
      They stopped conquering after a centuary.
      By 1K AD, they had some 600 principalities in Spain alone.
      By 1025AD refusing to help eachother, Spain began their
      re-conquista of contiguous Spain!
      Corruption began as early as 661AD where the 5th Califa, Muawija
      removed to Damascus creating the Umyyaden dynasty til 750AD.
      All concepts, ideals & institutions corrupt. We shouldn’t be worrying
      about what a Religion could become by preempting senseless global
      warfare! That’s imperialistic thinking in itself. Zionism of Zionistan
      will implode if it doesn’t explode. The US will move on to greener pastures.
      ziusudra
      PS None of us live long enough to live thru such grand changes.

  3. ivri
    October 2, 2013, 11:35 am

    If you look at it strategically these are the new trends – leading to some sort of stability. Hamas is a kind of outlier even in the Palestinian context – its staunch stance to never recognize Israel cannot be part of workable program for some kind of arrangement and its general violent attitude, past terror adherence and the use of rockets against civilians in Israel (AFTER Israel quit there) disqualifies it from being a part of that. The PA is emerging as the sole representative of the Palestinian side, supported by the main existing Arab forces, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan as well as good contacts with the West while Hamas past allies, Syria and Iran are crumbling or at least on a constant decline. The PA alos enjoys a reasonable level of realtioship with Isreal. So what we see are the phases of an ongoing process of regional consolidation where the trouble makers: Saddam, Assad. Hamas and soon Hezbollah too are withering away (together with a constantly declining Iran`s “resistance axis” including the downsizing of Iran itself) – it`s all History in the making.

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 2, 2013, 12:56 pm

      “the use of rockets against civilians in Israel (AFTER Israel quit there) ”

      The zios still haven’t quit torturning and murdering the Gazan people.

    • talknic
      October 2, 2013, 1:41 pm

      @ ivri Hamas is a kind of outlier even in the Palestinian context – its staunch stance to never recognize Israel cannot be part of workable program for some kind of arrangement and its general violent attitude, past terror adherence and the use of rockets against civilians in Israel (AFTER Israel quit there) disqualifies it from being a part of that. “

      Terrorism didn’t disqualify Jewish terrorists from becoming leaders of the new State of Israel.

      “The PA is emerging as the sole representative of the Palestinian side”

      Ignorance personified… The PLO was the sole representative of the Palestinian people. However, now Palestine has been recognized as a state. The PA was a body set up to administer with Israel, the occupied West Bank

      “Hamas and soon Hezbollah too are withering away (together with a constantly declining Iran`s “resistance axis” including the downsizing of Iran itself) – it`s all History in the making”

      Opinionated fantasy in the making is not history

    • Shingo
      October 2, 2013, 7:22 pm

      its staunch stance to never recognize Israel cannot be part of workable program for some kind of arrangement and its general violent attitude

      It’s so funny how Israel demands that they need to be reorganized as a condition, but they refuse to recognize the Palestinian State, and even try to block it from being recognized.

      The hypocrisy in mind numbing.

      past terror adherence and the use of rockets against civilians in Israel (AFTER Israel quit there) disqualifies it from being a part of that.

      Israel has fired more shells into Gaza (not including the 2 wars) than all the rockets fired by Hamas in the same period. That must surely disqualify Iran from being a part of that.

      The PA is emerging as the sole representative of the Palestinian side

      Yes, they are showing promise of being a very good puppet regime.

      So what we see are the phases of an ongoing process of regional consolidation where the trouble makers: Saddam, Assad. Hamas and soon Hezbollah too are withering away

      The biggest trouble makers of all are Israel. They are the ones committing the crime of occupation, land theft and ethnic cleansing, which is the elephant int he room that you hasbrats are incapable of acknowledging.

      And far from being on the decline, Syria and Iran are emerging as more powerful and emboldened as ever.

      Israel is clearly the state that is crumbling, as we saw at the UN this week.

    • ziusudra
      October 3, 2013, 4:58 am

      Greetings Ivri,
      — new trends—-
      Pssst, the Action is somewhere else, namely by O’Bloomers calling out the perpetual warmonger grand Golem, nitwit-jahu:
      …….. O’Bloomers spoke on ‘de telphone’ with none other than the new Pres.
      of Iran!………..
      Mosel Tov, Bubala, that’s a new trend!
      Aipac & the other 60 Zio lobbies are pumping up more shekels for the US politicians to ‘torp.’ O’Bloomers.
      An even greater new trend would be for the high Echelon Zios to ‘sack’ Bibi-inski!
      No war ‘agin’ Syria or Iran from the US side! What to do Chicken Little, de sky is falling?
      Hmmm, they could bring in a mild mannered, meek Rabbi to front as the new P.M. squaring off with Irans Pres. & go on playing Musical chairs ?
      ziusudra
      PS It took but water to kill the wicket witch!
      Now O’Bloomers, w/o a bullit, simply shrugged & changed the political winds ‘agin’ Zionistan;
      Zionistan, all the king’s horses & all the king’s men………
      couldn’t put Zionistan’s Israel back together again!
      PPS we have the boycott ‘agin’ Zionistan, enter the EU starting open Business with Iran, everybody but the US & Zionistan!

  4. Obsidian
    October 2, 2013, 12:31 pm

    Here we have the usual Jonathan Cook agitprop.

    For the first half of the article, Cook sticks to the facts, explaining Egypt’s quarrel with Hamas.
    Than Cook casually drops Israel into a sentence.

    Then in another paragraph Cook drops in Israel again, and then slowly he steers the his readers away from the Egypt-Hamas quarrel and toward the Israeli boogeyman, which Cook created.
    Then, of course, it’s Israel, Israel, Israel until the article’s anti-Isreal conclusion.

    A hackneyed magic act.

    • eljay
      October 2, 2013, 1:00 pm

      >> Then, of course, it’s Israel, Israel, Israel until the article’s anti-Isreal conclusion.
      >> A hackneyed magic act.

      The title of the article is “Gaza: Crushed between Israel and Egypt”.

      The article explains how Gaza is crushed between Israel and Egypt.

      The only magic evident is your misrepresentation of the article.

      • Citizen
        October 3, 2013, 4:27 am

        The US is heavily invested in both the Egyptian Military (not Egypt itself) and the Israeli Military (Israel is a Spartan state) in a continual cash dole of Egyptian Military getting two thirds of what Israel gets annual (although Egyptian Military does not get it all up front of the financial year nor doe sit get it with interest as Israel does). All of this serves to crush the Palestinian people whom the US government views as totally expendable in the macro interest of serving Israel.

    • talknic
      October 2, 2013, 1:45 pm

      @ Obsidian ” Cook casually drops Israel into a sentence”

      Israel as the Occupying Power, has the right to control all of Gaza’s crossings. Read the 2005 agreement. Furthermore, Egypt’s Peace Treaty with Israel tells us Egypt cannot allow anything considered harmful by Israel be allowed to pass Egypt’s borders.

      “A hackneyed magic act”

      A matter of AGREEMENT and a TREATY between Israel and Egypt actually

      • Citizen
        October 3, 2013, 4:28 am

        And funded by the US apropos of that treaty, as I just said in my earlier comment here.

    • Shingo
      October 2, 2013, 7:23 pm

      Than Cook casually drops Israel into a sentence.

      Like Bibbi said, facts are stubborn things. There would never have been a blockade were it not for Israel. It’s not Egyp that has a quarrel with Hamas, it’s the US backed Military junta.

      Then in another paragraph Cook drops in Israel again, and then slowly he steers the his readers away from the Egypt-Hamas quarrel and toward the Israeli boogeyman, which Cook created.

      The boogeyman was created in 1948 dufus.

  5. Woody Tanaka
    October 2, 2013, 1:01 pm

    “Than Cook casually drops Israel into a sentence.”

    Nothing casual about it. The cause of the Egypt/Gaza conflict is the fact that the Egyptian generals decision to bed the israeli whore.

    “toward the Israeli boogeyman, which Cook created.”

    No, the devil, israel, is quite real and commits its evil every single day on the people of Gaza. No discussion of the hell the Gazans are forced to endure would be complete without discussing the party primarily responsible for that pain: the zionists and their abomination of a state.

    • talknic
      October 2, 2013, 1:57 pm

      @ Woody Tanaka ” the zionists and their abomination of a state”

      Control of a state, the foundations for which were laid well in advance of Israel becoming a state to the point where ” we, members of the People’s Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel and of the Zionist Movement , are here assembled on the day of the termination of the British Mandate over Eretz-Israel and, by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.” link to pages.citebite.com

      First thing they did was rob the state of its promised constitution. There has never been a legally elected Government in Israel, under the promised (per the declaration) and required constitution (per UNGA res 181).

      The Zionist notion of creating a Jewish state didn’t originate in the region nor did the Zionist movement. It only moved to Palestine in 1936. Its founders could have in their life times immigrated to Palestine, obtained Palestinian citizenship bought land and settled anywhere in Palestine. Herzl didn’t even bother…

      • fnlevit
        October 4, 2013, 1:36 pm

        Herzl died in 1904.

      • talknic
        October 4, 2013, 2:38 pm

        @ fnlevit “Herzl died in 1904″ Uh huh. Was dying the only event in his life? Did you have a point?

        He lived some 26 years of his life as an adult who could have immigrated, obtained Palestinian citizenship bought land and settled anywhere in the Jewish historical homeland. Instead he lived anywhere BUT Palestine. Weird!

    • JustJessetr
      October 2, 2013, 1:58 pm

      “The cause of the Egypt/Gaza conflict is the fact that the Egyptian generals decision to bed the israeli whore.”

      That goes all the way back to Sadat. Sorry.

      “The devil, Israel, is quite real and commits it’s evil every single day on the people of Gaza.” Swap Egypt for Israel, and you have the exact same truth. Or Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon. It doesn’t look like anyone wants to deal with the Palestinians, and that’s the fault of Arab sectarianism, tribalism, and religious feuds.

      Woody, I’m sure you are a publicly committed atheist or at least agnostic, so you have to ditch the term “evil” and look at it for what it really is. And whatever you wind up labeling it, Israel is by far not the worst nor the first nor the prime cause, of those who regularly strip the Palestinians of their human rights.

      • talknic
        October 2, 2013, 10:35 pm

        JustJessetr //“The cause of the Egypt/Gaza conflict is the fact that the Egyptian generals decision to bed the israeli whore.”//

        “That goes all the way back to Sadat. Sorry:

        It goes back to the Peace Treaty, the 2005 agreement and the fact that Israel is the Occupying Power by which it has the final say in what, when, who enters or exits occupied territories.

        //“The devil, Israel, is quite real and commits it’s evil every single day on the people of Gaza.”//

        “Swap Egypt for Israel, and you have the exact same truth. Or Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon..It doesn’t look like anyone wants to deal with the Palestinians”

        Oh? The Arabs have continued to fight in the legal battle for the Palestinians for some 93 years, through the LoN and now the UN. They’ve fought wars on behalf of the Palestinians against Israeli aggression and colonial expansionism. They’ve offered refuge, hosting Palestine refugees for 65 years.

        All of which has been at an incredible cost, expecting nothing in return. No illegal settlements, no illegal territorial claims. No threats, no white phosphorus splattering over schools (in daylight when there’s no need to illuminate or where there were no troops to be hidden by the smoke). No stupid demands to recognize them as Arab states

        ” Israel is by far not the worst nor the first nor the prime cause, of those who regularly strip the Palestinians of their human rights”

        Strange. It is since the insistence on having a Jewish state that the Palestinians have been stripped of any rights.

      • Walid
        October 3, 2013, 12:19 am

        “The Arabs have continued to fight in the legal battle for the Palestinians for some 93 years, through the LoN and now the UN.”(talknic)

        Talknic, when you first mentioned Arabs fighting for Palestinians through the Arab League at the LoN in a reply to Inanna on another thread, I thought you you were being sarcastic. I see here that you weren’t.

        The AL wasn’t around in 1920 as it was formed in 1945 and my reading of Arab involvement with Palestinians of the 1920s is more about their dealing with the Zionists on and behind the backs of the Palestinians such as in the aborted Faisal-Weizmann Agreement whereby the Zionists were to have been given the whole of Palestine and a piece of the right bank in exchange of Zionist scientific knowhow and for backing Faisal in getting the British to go through with his promised Greater Syria kingdom, which of course didn’t happen. The other involvement was in the ongoing negotiations in the 20s and 30s with the Zionists to transfer Palestinians to Iraq in exchange for cash and bringing Iraqi Jews to Palestine to replace them, and that didn’t happen either. Palestinians were not consulted for any of these. Same stuff happening today.

      • talknic
        October 3, 2013, 2:52 am

        @Walid Yes. My response to Inanna was a little sloppy. Attempted to correct it via edit .. too late. Stated differently here.

        ” Faisal-Weizmann Agreement “ was only one Arab faction and one period. Same with the Iraqi suggestion. In general the neighbouring Arabs have been supportive of the Palestinians beyond the call

      • Walid
        October 3, 2013, 3:21 am

        I thought you were agreeing with me, talknic, that’s why I followed it up with my “valiantly” pun.

        You’re right about it having come from one faction, in fact both issues were undertaken by those that became Saudis; the first of the failed Faisal-Weizmann Agreement by the Hachemites that simply ended up with kingdoms in Jordan and Iraq as a consolation prize and the second by the house of Saud that ended up with Saudi Arabia as the big prize and went on to negotiate the transfer of Palestinians. Ironic that today, 70% of Jordanians are Palestinian. The Arab people in general are supportive of Palestinians but not to the point of doing anything about it or of taking any risks on their behalf. Had it not been so, the conflict would have been resolved a very long time ago and all these years, Israel has been capitalizing on their inaction.

      • ziusudra
        October 3, 2013, 5:16 am

        Greetings Walid,
        Jordan has a land mass of 91.0K Sq Km with 7 mill. People.
        Wasn’t this land & its People a greater part of Falesteena &
        only the Establishment of the Kingdom thro’ the conniving
        of the Monarchies of Europe changed the Nationalities?
        These are the same People who were semi nomading in ancient
        times when Canaan/Falesteena was 408K Sq Km!
        ziusudra
        PS Zionistan only inhabits 9.0K Sq Km of 21.0K Sq Km of Falesteena
        of today.

      • talknic
        October 3, 2013, 11:10 am

        Walid “Ironic that today, 70% of Jordanians are Palestinian.”

        70%? & ironic how and Jordanians are Palestinians? Let’s apply some very simple logic here

        The Jordan of today was once a part of Palestine. 100% of its citizens were Palestinian. 100% of Palestinians who lived in the region when it became Transjordan automatically had Jordanian citizenship. All Jordanian citizens are Jordanian

        Palestinians who lived outside the region that became Transjordan had no right to automatic citizenship when it became Transjordan.

        Palestine refugees who fled to Jordan were given temporary citizenship rights while refugees.

        Palestinians of the West Bank were given citizenship whilst the West Bank as it is now known, was legally annexed at the request of the Palestinians link to jcpa.org.il (self determination) and under the temporary sovereignty of Jordan ( as a trustee only Session: 12-II Date: May 1950 link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org ) (per the UN Charter Chapt X1)

        “All The Arab people in general are supportive of Palestinians but not to the point of doing anything about it or of taking any risks on their behalf”

        In the main they have already taken huge risks and suffered for it at the hands of Western powers and a Western backed Israel. As I said before, ‘beyond the call’ and BTW, within the Law, UN Charter and relative Conventions judging by the number of UNSC resolutions directly against them on the I/P issue

        Even with all the Arab states combined a US supported Israel, the US, UK, and allies have and still can outgun them militarily, financially, influentially and in practiced manipulation through propaganda and the mass media

        “Had it not been so, the conflict would have been resolved a very long time ago and all these years, Israel has been capitalizing on their inaction.”

        The Arab states are UN Members abiding by the UN Charter on the matter. It has been the UNSC’s inaction bought about by the US veto vote that Israel has been capitalizing on.

        It could have been resolved by the West NOT starting it, subdividing and conquering and Israel could have resolved it a very long time ago by adhering to its borders, by adhering to the Law and could end it today, immediately. Except of course the Jewish state has created so many illegal facts on the ground it cannot now afford to adhere to the law. Only an agreement can circumvent the law.

        The only legal way out of the illegal facts on the ground is to plea bargain (negotiate) with the Palestinians who have absolutely no legal obligation to forgo any of their legal rights or territory even in negotiations.

        Unfortunately all the US veto has done is allow the Jewish state to bully the Palestinians into submitting to Israel’s terms as it creates even more illegal facts on the ground.

      • Walid
        October 3, 2013, 12:50 pm

        “70%? & ironic how and Jordanians are Palestinians?”

        That was my turn at being sloppy; I should have said “of Palestinian descent”. The ironic part was about a monarch, Abdullah, from what became Saudi Arabia being parachuted into Palestine to rule over the Palestinians and that it was his brother Faisal that had come close to swapping away the whole Palestine with Weizmann .

        About the issue of the (Jericho) self-determination for the West Bank and how it tied in with the illegal annexation, it had not been the majority of Palestinians that had sworn allegiance to King Abdullah but only a part, which had met at Jericho since another part was looking into a union with Egypt. Seldomly discussed are the deals between Jordan and the Zionists to allow Jordan to grab the West Bank in exchange of not actively participating in a coming war. The illegal annexation was recognized only by the UK and Pakistan with the Arab League putting Jordan in the doghouse for 2 years because of it. So the annexation wasn’t as legitimate as pretended.

        I exaggerated when said that the Arabs did nothing for the Palestinians. I should have mentioned the 1973 oil embargo that had knocked the wind of the West for about a year until the Arabs were easily sweet-talked with promises into ending it.

      • talknic
        October 3, 2013, 2:22 pm

        Walid “That was my turn at being sloppy; I should have said “of Palestinian descent”. “

        They were ALL of Palestinian descent, it had been Palestine.

        “The ironic part was about a monarch, Abdullah, from what became Saudi Arabia being parachuted into Palestine to rule over the Palestinians…”

        I think you’re misinformed. He’d been there most of his life. There’s a discussion clarifying the matter somewhere on Mondoweiss, about a year ago.

        “About the issue of the (Jericho) self-determination for the West Bank and how it tied in with the illegal annexation,”

        There’s no UNSC resolution calling it illegal. In fact it complied with A) the UN’s notions of self determination by being requested and B) by being as a trustee only, the UN Charter Chapt XI.

        Furthermore it complied with the legal custom of consent or agreement. See the agreements the US had in the annexation of Texas (first a referendum of Texan citizens, then a referendum of US ) . Ditto an agreement with Hawaii, even Alaska long after it was bought from the USSR. The US custom of having an agreement to validate annexation was instrumental in the custom passing into Customary International Law.

        ” since another part was looking into a union with Egypt. “

        From Egyptian occupied Gaza?

        “The illegal annexation was recognized only by the UK and Pakistan “

        Recognition does not determine legality. There’s no vote on recognition of annexation or recognition of statehood. The UN only votes to accept already existing and recognized independent states (nations). There are numerous countries in the UN that legally exist, yet do not recognize each other. The Law determines legality and Customary International Law requires self determination thru an agreement with the citizens of the territory to be annexed or their representatives.

        “I exaggerated when said that the Arabs did nothing for the Palestinians. I should have mentioned the 1973 oil embargo that had knocked the wind of the West for about a year until the Arabs were easily sweet-talked with promises into ending it”

        I’ve not examined the 1973 oil embargo issue in detail, but as I recollect only Japan issued a statement re Palestinian self-determination.

        Easily and on what basis?

        January : Israel pulls back to the East side of the Suez
        March 5th: Israel withdraws from the West side of the Suez
        March 17th: End of the embargo against the United States.

      • Walid
        October 3, 2013, 3:43 pm

        “They were ALL of Palestinian descent, it had been Palestine.”

        We were discussing people that became Jordanian citizens. Of course they were mostly Palestinians. I don’t know if the numerous Bedouin nomadic tribes counted as part of the Palestinian people.

        Abdullah, was born in Mecca, Hejaz and educated in Istanbul and Hejaz. From age 27 to age 32 sat in the Ottoman legislature as deputy for Hejaz. From age 35 to 37 he joined TE Lawrence as architect and planner of the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans. At age 40 (1921), he was made ruler of TransJordan by the British. So he had spent about 2 years or so in the Jordan area at the time of the revolt when he was appointed Emir of Transjordan where he stayed until his assassination in 1951. So when he was parachuted on the Palestinians, he had been there only 2 to 4 years and not most of his life. Abdullah actually supported the partition of Palestine so he could annex the rest of it. Because of his dealings with the Zionists and his willingness to sign a separate peace with Israel, it cost him his life in 1951.

        As to the “easily” part, the Arabs had vowed to keep the embargo going until Israel would end its occupation of all Arab territories. After one year, Israel had pulled back a bit from the Sinai as you noted and the US then promised the Arabs that it was close to convincing Israel of ending its occupation, and the Arabs took its word for it and ended it. That was easy and 40 years have gone by and the occupation is still to be ended.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 1:12 am

        “Zionistan only inhabits 9.0K Sq Km of 21.0K Sq Km of Falesteena
        of today.”

        Hi ziusudra, interesting about the 408K sq km of the old Canaan and it blends in with what Shenhav wrote somewhere in so many other words about oriental Jews having been part of the roaming crowd and therefore naturally at home anywhere in that large area. We can’t say as much about those other European and American Jews that stick out like a sore thumb.Seeing that Israel today is about 27K sq km, I didn’t understand which area you are talking about when you said today Zionistan inhabiting only 9K sq km of the 21k sq km of Falesteena. Would you please explain.

      • ziusudra
        October 6, 2013, 1:59 am

        Mahaba Salam Walid,
        9.0K Sq Km is the area that is used to accomodate 5.9 Mill Israelis.
        Even though they control contiguous Falesteena of 21.0K Sq Km.
        I was making the point that even a greater Zionistan would be superfluous
        for such a small group of people.
        For example,
        Tel Aviv City itself supports 408K People on 52 Sq Km, (Sardine City)
        but only have a bunker capacity of 30K!
        Outside of Tel Aviv 1.3 mill People on 176 Sq Km.
        Jerusalem has 801K People on 125.1 Sq Km.
        Haifa has 586K People on 364.2 Sq Km.
        etc, etc.
        Following you & Talknic, i can’t understand what value
        is placed on the term, descendency of the Jordanian People?
        These People have been there 90K to 110K yrs.
        Jordan gets annexed after WWI by a Euro Kingdom & becomes
        a Hashemite Kingdom under UK rule from 1928 to 1946.
        These Jordanians are Falesteeni from their age old DNA!
        Palastine, Arab, Hebrew, Semite, Citizenship are all modern
        terminologies compared to the ancient ethnicity of these people.
        Mashallah,
        ziusudra

      • yrn
        October 3, 2013, 4:43 am

        JustJessetr
        You are a party-pooper, why ruin the “Israeli Devil” party.
        It’s all about Israel Devils, not Egypt or Saudi or Lebanon or Jordan.
        Or the Palestinians, as long as you can party on Israel Devils.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 3, 2013, 9:14 am

        “That goes all the way back to Sadat. Sorry.”

        Nope. Sadat didn’t make the deal with the devils that led to this.

        “Swap Egypt for Israel, and you have the exact same truth. Or Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon. It doesn’t look like anyone wants to deal with the Palestinians, and that’s the fault of Arab sectarianism, tribalism, and religious feuds.”

        Naqba-denying lies. The fact is that the israelis are the cancer at the heart of these dysfunctions and although the Arab states have been better or worse on this issue through time, the plain fact is that the issue only exists in the first place because of the evil plans of the zionists to steal the Palestinians land, murder them, and drive them out of their own homes.

        “Woody, I’m sure you are a publicly committed atheist or at least agnostic, so you have to ditch the term ‘evil’ and look at it for what it really is.”

        Nonsense. That’s a bit of anti-atheist bigotry and idiocy. “Evil” is a moral judgment and the zionsits’ and israel’s acts have earned them that label and worse.

        “And whatever you wind up labeling it, Israel is by far not the worst nor the first nor the prime cause, of those who regularly strip the Palestinians of their human rights.”

        Baloney. If it wasn’t for the cancer of zionism, the Palestinians would be where they belong: in their homeland of Palestine, governing themselves.

        And whatever you wind up labeling it, Israel is by far not the worst nor the first nor the prime cause, of those who regularly strip the Palestinians of their human rights.

  6. JustJessetr
    October 2, 2013, 1:59 pm

    “Over the past weeks, the army has destroyed hundreds of tunnels through which Palestinians smuggle fuel and other necessities in short supply because of Israel’s siege.”

    Shouldn’t you say then, “Israel’s and Egypt’s siege”?

    • talknic
      October 3, 2013, 11:15 am

      JustJessetr “Shouldn’t you say then, “Israel’s and Egypt’s siege”?”

      No. Israel is the Occupying Power, it dictates what, when and who passes thru Gaza’s borders. Egypt is only abiding by the Peace Agreement and the 2005 agreement

  7. Ludwig
    October 2, 2013, 5:46 pm

    I applaud the blocking of weapons of war to Gaza. Remember these weapons are used in indiscriminate attacks against civilians. They should be cut off completely so that not one rocket remains in the area.

    • Shingo
      October 2, 2013, 11:42 pm

      I applaud the blocking of weapons of war to Gaza.

      Then surely you must be anxious to see the blocking of weapons of war to Israel. Remember these weapons are used in indiscriminate attacks against civilians, and has killed thousands of them.

      These weapons are also being used to maintain and carry out the occupation, which is against international and US laws.

      You do agree don’t you Ludwig, that they should be cut off completely so that not one F16 remains in the area.

    • talknic
      October 3, 2013, 2:59 am

      Ludwig “I applaud the blocking of weapons of war to Gaza”

      Strange they appear to choose home made rockets over all the amazing weaponry Iran et al are alleged to have supplied them

      “Remember these weapons are used in indiscriminate attacks against civilians. “

      The IDF Memorial site shows more strikes have been made on Israeli military than Israeli civilians.

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 3, 2013, 8:37 am

      “I applaud the blocking of weapons of war to Gaza.”

      And criminals applaud ripping off old people.

      “Remember these weapons are used in indiscriminate attacks against civilians.”

      No, they’re used to defend the Gazans from the murderous predations of the zionists. And if those “civilians” you speak of keep voting for governments whose main philosophy of governance is to oppress the Palestinians, murder them, steal from them and destroy their lives, then those same “civilians” aren’t innocent, are they? Someone who pays a man to murder another isn’t innocent.

      “They should be cut off completely so that not one rocket remains in the area.”

      Yes, you and your death monger fellow zios would love that: a disarmed population of people you can murder with impunity. Oh, you’d love that, wouldn’t you, you craven devil.

  8. biorabbi
    October 2, 2013, 6:10 pm

    There is some kind of payback at play here were the Egyptian generals are trying to destroy Hamas for what they perceive as supporting(including military support)to Morsi and also in causing havoc in Sinai. I think the latter is wrong and based on having Sinai demilitarized for so long due to the Camp David Treaty… now the generals are cracking down, but the havoc in Sinai is not the fault of Israel, Hamas, or Egypt, but due to the hands of policy on Sinai since ’79. I don’t think the Egyptians are acting strictly as “Israel’s whore” rather “wife beating” would be the better metaphor. They are beating on Hamas because they, the Egyptian leadership, views Hamas, as in sync with Morsi. Using the same logic, btw, they view Edrogan and the Turks as ideological soul mates of Morsi.

    • Shingo
      October 2, 2013, 11:48 pm

      There is some kind of payback at play here were the Egyptian generals are trying to destroy Hamas for what they perceive as supporting(including military support)to Morsi and also in causing havoc in Sinai.

      Not only is there no evidence that they caused the havoc in the Sinai (the perpetrators were never identified), but it makes no sense why Hamas would sabotage themselves by doing so.

      It is very likely that these attacks were false flag attacks by Israel. After all, the Rafah Crossing was closed after they occured to qui bono?

  9. Shingo
    October 2, 2013, 10:36 pm

    I still find it amazing how anyone could believe this is the will of the Egyptian people. In 2011, they were chanting in the Tahrir that they would be setting Jerusalem free, now they are trying to imprison them and starve them.

    • Taxi
      October 3, 2013, 4:23 am

      Shingo,
      The Palestinian Moslem Brotherhood, Hamas, is the reason for Egypt’s squeeze on the Gaza tunnels, not the Egyptian people’s hatred of Palestinians, and certainly not to directly help israel out either – though, unfortunately, the unintended consequences of the tunnel closures do in practice help israel out some. The Egyptian army tends to destroy the tunnels when they receive intelligence that weapons are being smuggled/are about to be smuggled to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood from Palestinian Moslem Brotherhood, and vice versa .
      link to maannews.net

      I don’t personally approve of the tactic of shutting down the tunnels: I prefer that the Egyptian army physically monitors the tunnels for contraband and not close them.

      Hamas backed the wrong horse in Syria and in Egypt – and lost in both arenas. And we all know that when a leadership makes a mistake, its people always pays. Currently, hizbollah’s political arm is helping Hamas find its way back to the resistor’s fold. It would make life easier for Palestinians caught in between the two sides if the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood would denounce the sectarian tenets of their ideology, and Hamas would focus solely on resisting israel.

      • ivri
        October 3, 2013, 6:32 am

        Taxi, you seem to be placing a lot on Hezbollah – you expect them to shoot down Israeli aircrafts, spray Israel with deadly missiles, now guiding Hamas, etc. In reality it is a much lamer duck than you would want to believe – I think they must be very nervous now watching what unfolds all around. I am afraid you are up to a rude awakening here

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 6:20 pm

        I think they must be very nervous now watching what unfolds all around. I am afraid you are up to a rude awakening here

        On the contrary, Israel is headed for another pasting because simply put, they are a one trick pony and have no idea how to defeat Hezbollah.

        You seem to be forgetting that it was just the acquisition if anti aircraft shoulder fired missiles by the Mujahadeen that defeated the Soviets.

        Hezbollah now have anti aircraft missiles, and are far better armed and prepared than they were last time. The outcome will be the same and your beloved IDF Dough Boys will do what they did last time and go AWOL.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 9:50 pm

        ivri,

        The whole world saw the “rude awakening” of israel in 2000, in 2006, and again five weeks ago when israelis were fighting each other over gas masks, fearing a multi directional attack.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 2:40 am

        “Taxi, you seem to be placing a lot on Hezbollah ”

        Ivri, Taxi is being kind in telling you only the half of it. Hizbullah’s help is what turned things around against the rebels in Syria that forced the West (and part of the East) into pulling the chemical poisonings stunt. You probably didn’t hear about Israel’s mad rush to empty the giant amonia reservoirs in Haifa a few weeks back or of another mysterious drone-like incursion into Israeli skies last week. Looks like the people are being kept in the dark in Israel as much as in some Arab states.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 6:49 am

        Taxi,

        I hope you’ve link is evidence you’ve overcome your aversion to referring to the July events to what they are, a military coup and counter revolution that has unraveled everything that took place in 2011. You also seem to have come to accept that the military junta is clearly not acting according to the wishes of the Egyptian majority, but the behest of heir own money interests and those of foreign powers like Israel and Saudi Arabia.

        Your link also says nothing about weapons but basic necessities.

        I hope you are as disgusted as I am.

        The Egyptian army tends to destroy the tunnels when they receive intelligence that weapons are being smuggled/are about to be smuggled to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood from Palestinian Moslem Brotherhood, and vice versa .

        There is no visa versa. There is only one way in and out of Gaza and that is via the tunnels in the Sinai, so they represent no threat to the Egyptian army – thus the destruction of the tunnels serves Israel’s interests and Israel’s alone.

        though, unfortunately, the unintended consequences of the tunnel closures do in practice help israel out some.

        Sorry, but you lost that argument months ago. The useful idiots who backed the coup are virulently anti Palestinian and dare I say it, pro Israel.

        Like they say Taxi, when you lie down with dogs, you get flees. You’re in the pro Israeli camp whether you like it or not.

        Hamas backed the wrong horse in Syria and in Egypt – and lost in both arenas.

        Again, that sounds exactly like the Israeli rhetoric about the 1948 and 1967 wars – winners are grinners and losers face the consequences.

        It would make life easier for Palestinians caught in between the two sides if the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood would denounce the sectarian tenets of their ideology, and Hamas would focus solely on resisting israel.

        You can’t be serious. Hamas needs all the help it can get resisting Israel. Had they gone it alone, they would have been wiped out long ago.

        Your prescription would be music to Likud’s ears – telling Hams to march to their deaths quietly.

        I guess it’s going to take you a good deal longer to come to your senses.

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 9:22 pm

        Shingo,

        You can call what happened in Egypt whatever you like, that’s your prerogative. I ain’t here to score points like you evidently are – if I were, I’d be calling you a MB sycophant, etc. etc. etc..

        Me, I’m just waiting for the next election.

        Maybe then everyone will ‘come to their senses’.

        (sorry pal, not interested in point scoring or in Egypt polemics).

      • Taxi
        October 3, 2013, 9:42 pm

        One can be pro Hamas, the resistance group, and anti their islamist wing. But you go ahead and bury yourself up to the neck in their islamist waste if you want to, Shingo.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 10:34 pm

        You can call what happened in Egypt whatever you like, that’s your prerogative.

        Your own link called it a coup. Are you still holding out on me ?

        I ain’t here to score points like you evidently are – if I were, I’d be calling you a MB sycophant, etc. etc. etc..

        Fire away Taxi. You and you alone are a minority of one on this forum with regard to the support for the coup. Even the hasbarats have a bigger contingent.

        Me, I’m just waiting for the next election.

        Mubarak help elections, so why waste your time? We already know the winner will be hand picked by the Saudi bought and paid for military junta. The dictatorship is already locking up critics, including those who supported the coup who were silly enough to post unflattering comments about the state of the leadership on Facebook.

        But yes, I do hope you ill come to your senses.

      • Shingo
        October 3, 2013, 10:35 pm

        One can be pro Hamas, the resistance group, and anti their islamist wing.

        Agreed, but you are clearly not one fo them.

        But you go ahead and bury yourself up to the neck in their islamist waste if you want to, Shingo.

        And enjoy being buried up to the neck in Zionist, pro fascist, dictatorial waster Taxi.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 3:09 am

        “Me, I’m just waiting for the next election.”

        Those will be disappointing, Taxi, you’ll be seeing the return of the old Mubarak legislative team; the executive and administrative ones never left. In the last elections the US twisted the army’s arm to allow the Brotherhood to run as political parties for the first time in about 50 years under the premise that if these win big as was expected and subsequently prove to be undeserving, they would be defeated in the following elections. In previous elections a few Brothers had entered the Egyptian legislature running as independents. The army and the US (and most probably Israel) did not want to wait for the next elections and decided to oust them now after only a year. I didn’t agree with the way the Brothers ran things or the direction they were steering the country into but I still find it unfair how they were trounced out.

        In short, the Brothers had their brief moment in the sun and now they have been sent back to the cellars possibly for another 50 years. I doubt you’d like to see the old Mubarak team back in.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 4:22 am

        You summed up my feelings perfectly Walid,

        The military was in control throughout, and Mubarak was only ever a front man for the military dictatorship, so nothing has changed since Mubarak.

        And your theory about the US pressuring the Egyptian military makes perfect sense. After the presidential elections, there was a significant delay, and the army looked like they were going to give the nod to the Mubarak era candidate even though Morsi won more votes. When they announced Morsi, it came as a surprise to many, but it showed that the military was pulling the strings all along.

        Nothing has changed.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 5:41 am

        Thanks for your crystal ball readings, Walid. I’ll keep your ‘vision’ in mind.

        Thanks even though you make no mention of/give any credit to the millions of Egyptians who took to the streets and protested against Morsi – by far more people protested against Morsi than for him.

        What’s “unfair”, Walid, is for islamists to have hijacked the elections in the first place, with the help of USA and Qatar.

        Sorry but I can’t shed tears over Moslem Brotherhood loses. I abhor the bastards as much as I abhor zionist.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 5:58 am

        “Agreed, but you are clearly not one fo them.”

        LOL – so much sour grapes you’re choking blind.

        What an arrogant and amateur debater you are today (very unlike you) – yes, personal jabs without proof of substance will render you thus.

        The MW community might disagree with me on Egypt, but you’re the only one taking it to a personal level and falsely smearing my life-long support of the Palestinians. (Ok there maybe one or two others who despise me personally the way you do and who’ll jump into the mud pit with you). I suggest you go read my five thousand plus pro-Palestine posts before you embarrass yourself any further. You’re using the ‘anti-palestine’ smear the same way zionists use the antisemite smear: with no rhyme or reason.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 6:32 am

        Walid,

        Thirteen apolitical interim technocrats, who also happened to work for the government while Mubarak was in power, does not for a ‘regime’ make.

        So many lame and uninformed conspiracy theories flying about the place. Either provide proof that Mubarak’s “executive and administrative ones never left”, ie give us their names and statements/actions that show their undying allegiance to Mubarak, or… well, or rethink your analysis again, basing it on facts, please. No gravitas in guessing the future based on assumptions or outdated information.

        And I wish people would get up to speed on the new mideast order currently shaping itself: are Egyptians really still in need of USA aid with Putin back in the picture? Why would General Sisi defy Obama’s wishes/orders if the Egyptian army is still under the USA/israel thumb?
        link to thediplomat.com
        link to thedailybeast.com
        link to egyptianstreets.com

        Some things have already changed, Walid. They continue to change. And this change is slowly materializing, in spite of some MW bloggers insisting that “nothing has changed”.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 7:13 am

        Thanks for your crystal ball readings, Walid. I’ll keep your ‘vision’ in mind.

        So Walid points out that the Earth is not flat and Taxi tries to insist that this is subject to future events. Hillarious!!

        Thanks even though you make no mention of/give any credit to the millions of Egyptians who took to the streets and protested against Morsi

        It was the military that removed him Morsi, not the millions in the streets.

        What’s “unfair”, Walid, is for islamists to have hijacked the elections in the first place, with the help of USA and Qatar.

        Yes take note Walid – it’s unfair for the “islamists ” to have hijacked the elections – by turning up to vote – but it’s perfectly fair for the democratically elected winner of those elections to be removed by a military coup by unelected tyrants with the help of USA and Saudi Arabia.

        Sorry but I can’t shed tears over Moslem Brotherhood loses.

        They didn’t lose, they won a democratic election, and that couldn’t be allowed – becuas you see, Taxi is all for Zionist style democracy – when it only counts when your side wins.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 7:18 am

        so much sour grapes you’re choking blind.

        Yeah, a military coup de tah and counter revolution is legitimate and anyone who doesn’t like it is sour grapes. Is it just me, or does Taxi remind you or a slow motion train wreck?

        The MW community might disagree with me on Egypt, but you’re the only one taking it to a personal level and falsely smearing my life-long support of the Palestinians.

        Yeah, I just read your caustic response to Walid after he shreeded your paranoid conspiracy BS – so I know I am not the only one taking it to a personal level

        I suggest you go read my five thousand plus pro-Palestine posts before you embarrass yourself any further.

        Among them are your dismissal of the plight of the Palestinians of Gaza as collateral damage who need to be sacrificed for the greater good of the Egyptian counter revolution.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 7:35 am

        Thirteen apolitical interim technocrats, who also happened to work for the government while Mubarak was in power, does not for a ‘regime’ make.

        Yes, “apolitical” because we all know how much Mubarak loved to have independent thinkers in his government.

        And the Deep State is exactly where it was under Mubarak.

        So many lame and uninformed conspiracy theories flying about the place.

        Top of them all being the claim that Moris is a US backed stooge, while you insist that the US Army College Trainer El-Sisi – who was there throughout Mubarak’s reign – is an Egyptian patriot.

        Either provide proof that Mubarak’s “executive and administrative ones never left”,

        You have a point Taxi, some were fired, but they all got their jobs back after the counter revolutionary coup.

        are Egyptians really still in need of USA aid with Putin back in the picture?

        Not when they are in the pocket of the Saudis, who have pledged 12 billion.

        Why would General Sisi defy Obama’s wishes/orders if the Egyptian army is still under the USA/israel thumb?

        Pathetic. Once of your links claims that the Camp David accords are getting in the way of the Egyptian military, yet the Egyptian Generals have admitted they got rid of Morsi because he threatened the Camp David accords.

        You gotta hand it to Taxi. Only she could consider it progress that Egypt has moved from Washington’s sphere of influence to Saudi Arabia’s.

        ome things have already changed, Walid.

        Yes they have Walid. Mubarak is out of prison and Morsi is in prison of charges he incurred while Mubarak was in power. A 180 turn around.

        Members of the April 16th movement are even being brought in for questioning and arrested.

        Things have indeed changed. The revolution of 2011 has been completely reversed and Taxi is ecstatic.

        I wonder if she had a Mubarak 2.0 bumber sticker.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 8:02 am

        Here’s some more pearls from the counter revolution:

        1. Journalists from the pro army media are being arrested and questioned. One jouranlist was arrested for merely questioning pro army reports, so Egypt has returned to being worse than it was under Mubarak.

        2. The planning and the money for the counter revolution was orchestrated by the Saudis and the UAE. All of whom are US satellite countries.

        So the idea that the MB were supported by the US is pure fantasy.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 10:00 am

        “Thanks for your crystal ball readings, Walid. I’ll keep your ‘vision’ in mind.”

        I also respect your right to your opinion, Taxi, and I also dislike the MB mentality but not to the point of abhoring them. I also respect their rights to their views although I don’t like them. I’m sure we are in agreement on most issues but where we are not is on the issue of Egyptian street that you believe was always in control. I think it never was. It was manipulated all along in good part by the army that wanted to get rid of Mubarak that was on a fast track of imposing his son on the army and on the country.

        If you remember the several interviews with the leaderless and ruderless Tahrir kids asking them what they aspired for, none of them had a clue of what they would like to see in replacement of Mubarak’s regime; all they had on their mind was the ouster of Mubarak. A few imaginative ones said they’d want better access to internet or some other such insignificant thing. After the fausse-couche with Morsi, the army re-mobilized the kids in Tahrir and the Tamarrod clique to demand the ouster of Morsi and for a second time, these kids were manipulated. If you want to go on believing that what the kids did or accomplished was something spontaneous, it’s your right.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 10:15 am

        “Thirteen apolitical interim technocrats, who also happened to work for the government while Mubarak was in power, does not for a ‘regime’ make. ”

        Taxi, I was thinking more along the lines of attitudes and mentalities rather than actual people in these positions. Just look to the appointments of about 20 governors by the interim cabinet and you’d see that the majority are military generals both active and retired as well as other military cronies. Keep in mind that the whole military apparatus is Mubarak-inspired. The icing on the cake was placed by the interim cabinet of technocrats that appointed Amr Mussa to head the constitutional council that will be writing the new constitution. Mussa before his 10 years of doing very little at the AL was Mubarak’s FM also for 10 years and practically a clone of the master.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 2:58 pm

        Walid,

        The moslem brotherhood are Khalifa believers, first and foremost. They are no lovers or adherents of democracy or modernism. They are violent, sexist; they are sectarian and practice religious prejudice. Simply put, they are extremist moslem fundies – they are zealot islamists. They are killing and butchering innocents across the middle east for the benefit of the shiekdoms, yet you find them only ‘dislikable’. How strangely jesus of you.

        And I’m sorry to tell you that you are wrong about the ‘streets’ of Egypt. Egyptians of all ages protested against both Mubarak and Morsi. Some of the finest Egyptian seasoned intellectuals were amongst the protestors. That you should dismiss the millions that turned up as “ruderless kids” makes me doubt that you actually keenly followed the events. I consider your statement uninformed and therefore your analysis is not to be taken seriously.

        You speak of events as if the army simultaneously drugged the millions of suffering Egyptian citizens. Just because the citizenry and the army had common cause does not make the Egyptian protestors zombies following orders that they gain no benefit from for themselves.

        Instead of providing names of Mubarakite infiltrators into government, you tell me that you were “thinking more along the lines of attitudes and mentalities rather than actual people in these positions”. Wow, Walid. So you’re actually basing your whole argument on perceived Mubarakism and not on facts? Well, what can I say except: I rest my case.

        What I can agree with you on though is, Amr Mousa, whom I consider to be a horrid little opportunist. He’s not a Mubarakite, or a Nassarite, or a Tahriri – he’s a political opportunist serving only himself. But you’re mistaken about him being the sole writer and end all of the new constitution. He’s not. He’s also not a member of the interim government. He was appointed by the interim government to head the constitutional committee and the committee functions by a voting system. The final say is not in his hands, Walid. I’m told he was chosen for that position because he had gone against Mubarak in the latter years, and also, the revolution needed a familiar face for the international audience. His appointment shows us how revolution can make political compromises that dilute the spirit of the revolution- such is the way of the world.

        As to your take on the military being “Mubarak-inspired”, I beg to severely differ here. In case you didn’t know, General Sisi’s first and foremost adviser is Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, a life-long committed Nasserite and the most important journalist/intellectual in Egypt (three weeks ago the Moslem Brotherhood burned down his house). The Egyptian army is Nasser’s brainchild, Walid, remains so to this day. It’s just absurd to think of the Egyptian army as Mubarakite. Sisi placed flowers on Nasser’s tomb some ten days ago, on the anniversary of Nasser’s death. Sisi hasn’t visited or contacted Mubarak since his downfall. It is known that Nasser chose Sadat as his number two because of his lack of intellectual vigor – no risk there for Nasser being stabbed in the back by his lackluster number two. Sadat became president because Nasser suddenly died, not because of any notable military or political achievements. Sadat, thinking himself a clever Trevor, appointed a grander idiot, by the name of Mubarak, to be his number two, for the same reasons as Nasser’s. Mubarak became president when Sadat died suddenly in an assassination – again, Mubark became president not because of any notable military or political achievements. The big boys in the Egyptian army remain Nasserite to the core, remain loyal to their original leader and his ideology, as are a substantial chunk of Egyptian citizens, including millions of protestors that you dismiss as “ruderless kids”, never mind the millions of protesting retired Fallaheens across Egypt: who own farms given to them by Nasser after his successful revolution against the Egyptian mass land-owning monarchy.

        No two revolutions are the same, and no two democracies are practiced exactly the same either. Egypt presently is a work in progress, whose final results are yet to manifest. This is why I have repeatedly said I am waiting for the results of next election before I commit to a final judgement. In the meantime, I’ve grown thicker skin against the thousands of absurd Egypt conspiracy theories that I’ve come across. I’ve given up on wanting the MW community to be better informed on Egypt. It’s up to you guys to go believing what you want. But at least try present facts and context too, not just opinion.

        Here’s a ‘neutral’ link that succinctly summarizes the events that led to Mursi’s ouster:
        link to mcclatchydc.com

        Yes, the Egyptian army is now in control. But what other choice did they have? Till a new government is elected, this is by far a better choice than a sectarian war, which is what the Moslem Brotherhood were rabidly trying to instigate after Morsi’s downfall.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 3:42 pm

        Shingo,

        Thanks for your immense (obssessive?) input.

        But it’s all meaningless.

        Your bff’s the moslem brotherhood lost. Full stop. Learn to live with it.

        “Among them are your dismissal of the plight of the Palestinians of Gaza as collateral damage who need to be sacrificed for the greater good of the Egyptian counter revolution.”

        That’s your willfully twisted interpretation. I never used the word “collateral”, you did – you’re putting YOUR word in my mouth. Nasty boy! No link again either!

        You utterly refuse to assign ANY responsibility to Hamas’s moslem brotherhood wing. That’s why your analysis is unbalanced and cannot be taken seriously.

        Smear away, it’s your own time wasted.

        One thing remains steady: I love Palestine. Neither zionist nor Moslem Brotherhood supporter can take that away, hard as they pathetically try.

        And BTW, Walid and I disagree on Egypt, but we don’t smear each other. Only you, shingo, are resorting to smears. Sign of rattled nerves and weak intellect. Don’t go pulling Walid into your hate zone. He doesn’t belong there. You do.

      • Walid
        October 4, 2013, 4:05 pm

        Taxi, interesting article on McClatchy. Maybe you have a better and more recent grasp of the street since you were there a few weeks ago; my last time there was 5 years ago and didn’t rub shoulders with any intellectuals. At least we agree on Musa or is it Mousa; I remember him sitting on his hands along with the Gulf leaders while Lebanon was being pounded in 2006. A part of your answer left me perplexed. It was your evaluations of Egyptian presidents that show Nasser a coward in his appointing a dummy as his second in command, the dummy not being so dummy since he did the same thing when he in turn appointed Mubarak for the same reason and the 2 that you are calling dummies ended up presiding over Egypt for 11 years and 30 years, respectively. As to Sisi, he seems to be sticking with the winners so it could explain why he kept away from Mubarak. Maybe he too is dummy enough to become the next president.

        I hope the next elections will be to your expectations although I’m not expecting new elections before a few more years.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 5:07 pm

        Here’s a ‘neutral’ link that succinctly summarizes the events that led to Mursi’s ouster:

        That’s far from neutral. While McClatchy is usually a very reliable source, this article leaves out important details.

        But he disregarded the narrow margin through which he’d won the presidency and in a series of blunders, coupled with divisive language, became seen as grabbing for power, pushing through a constitution crafted largely by the Brotherhood, moving sympathetic judges into key positions, and prosecuting critics under Mubarak-era laws. That and a flailing economy, led to his downfall.”

        This is highly selective at best.

        1. The grab for power was nothing more than Morsi trying to appoint his own people to run government departments – you know, what US presidents do every time a new one is elected. He backed down without a fight and all the Mubarak era deep state dead wood remain in power to undermine him.

        That doesn’t mean I love the guy, it means he had no chance from day 1 – as your own link states from the beginning.

        2. The left and progressives refused to have anything to do with the constitution from the beginning, and then turned around and complained that is was being drafted entirely by the Brotherhood. Then at the last minute, they changed their tune and wanted in.

        They were simply sour a the fact that their man was not elected and wanted to sabotage Morsi’s presidency.

        3. Can you seriously blame him for wanting to make come changes to the Mubarak appointed judiciary? The same cretins who dismissed most of the candidates on spurious grounds? In fact, if it wasn’t for that sorry pack of bottom feeders, we might have actually seem a competent candidate emerge, rather than some dud like Morsi.

        4. The article points out that the economy was already in tatters when Morsi took over, yet he is blamed for it’s sorry state.

        The article goes on to state that:

        “Almost immediately he made enemies within the key institutions he needed in order to maintain control of government.”

        Well no sh#t Sherlock. These government institutions were rife with Mubarak Deep State types that had no intention of working with Morsi. The police were a perfect example. They refused to go to work for the entire tenure of Morsi, and the day after he fell, they went straight back to work.

        This is the same police force that massacred Egyptians in the streets in 2011, and they are the good guys?

        Yes, the Egyptian army is now in control. But what other choice did they have?

        The Egyptian army is always in control and always had been. The only difference is that they are no longer sitting back in the shadows, pretending to respect the will of the people or the government.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 5:37 pm

        Some of the finest Egyptian seasoned intellectuals were amongst the protestors.

        Such as who?

        That you should dismiss the millions that turned up as “ruderless kids” makes me doubt that you actually keenly followed the events. I consider your statement uninformed and therefore your analysis is not to be taken seriously.

        You can babbyl on about the million who turned up all you like, they are and always were a minority. They are simply the sectarian population who lost the election and could not get their way at the ballot box, so they took to the streets and got the army to do their dirty work.

        They might well have had good intentions (which have been hijacked by the military) but they don’t seem to accept that democracy means that your man doesn’t always get elected.

        Just because the citizenry and the army had common cause does not make the Egyptian protestors zombies following orders that they gain no benefit from for themselves.

        Come on Taxi, we all know the power of the media. From the day he took office, Egyptian television attacked Morsi relentlessly 24/7. I read an account from a reporter in Cairo who said a Taxi driver swore till he was red in the face that Morsi and the MB were selling the Suez to Qatar and the Pyramids to the Saudis.

        Instead of providing names of Mubarakite infiltrators into government, you tell me that you were “thinking more along the lines of attitudes and mentalities rather than actual people in these positions”.

        Why would Mubarakites need to infiltrate the government departments they were already occupying? For God’s sake Taxi, think for a minute. When Morsi tried to appoint his own people to government positions, he was accused of a power grab, so he backed down. What does that mean? It means the same people who were in those positions the day before Mubarak fell were there throughout Morsi’s presidency.

        Do you now get it?

        As to your take on the military being “Mubarak-inspired”, I beg to severely differ here.

        El-Sisi was appointed to replace Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who had groomed him for the position. Yes, the Egyptian army is Nasser’s brainchild, and Mubarak was little more than the civilian face of the military dictatorship.

        In the meantime, I’ve grown thicker skin against the thousands of absurd Egypt conspiracy theories that I’ve come across.

        I beg to differ Taxi, it appears you have developed a selective filter for absurd Egypt conspiracy theories – accepting the ones that suit you.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 5:43 pm

        Your bff’s the moslem brotherhood lost. Full stop. Learn to live with it.

        No Taxi, that’s the point, they didn’t lose. They were ousted by an illegal military coup because your bff’s couldn’t win using legitimate means via democratic elections.

        You utterly refuse to assign ANY responsibility to Hamas’s moslem brotherhood wing.

        What responsibility? Beyond moral support, what did Hamas do that was any threat to Egypt or the military? To this day, even the Egyptians living in the Sinai do not know who is responsible for the attacks on the Egyptian army in the Sinai.

        Do you completely dismiss the possibility that Israel is up to their necks in this scam? After all, who benefits from the tunnels being closed?

        And BTW, Walid and I disagree on Egypt, but we don’t smear each other. Only you, shingo, are resorting to smears.

        As someone who speaks about taking responsibility, you might want to take your own advice Taxi. You jumped head first with your own fair share of viteriol into this debate when Max Blumenthal’s piece was posted here months ago.

        And take responsibility for the fact that the murderous thugs you now support are making life a living hell for the Palestinians you profess to love.

        It’s time you owned it, because you cannot have it both ways.

      • Taxi
        October 4, 2013, 6:27 pm

        Walid,
        Nasser was not a coward. His mastermind and execution of the coup d’etat against the Farouk monarchy cost not a single life: neither civilian nor military. In fact, actually, there was only one death: a civilian who was killed by a stray bullet during the celebrations after the successful coup. Nasser also actively stood up to all the colonialists in the middle east: the French, the Brits and the israelis. They don’t make Arab leaders like that anymore. Win or lose, he stood up with dignity. How many Arab leaders in the 20th and 21st century have actually done that?

        Walid, to understand why Nasser chose Sadat as his deputy, we must take into consideration the zeitgeist of the times in Egypt in 1952, as well as the psychological culture of an army’s (any army’s) leadership in the thick of a coup d’etat and post military engagement.

        In 1952, the suffering Egyptian citizenry had lost the 1948 war, humiliated, starving and living under the boot of a fay but brutal monarchy, supported and enabled by the British, so as to have control over the Suez Canal:Egypt’s most lucrative and vital strategic asset. Like any oppressive regime, the monarchy and the Brits had hundreds of thousands of spies, arresting people on mere suspicion of anti-monarchy ideology or activity; never to be heard from again. So the general atmosphere was that of humiliation, poverty and desperation; and the general psyche of the country at the time was one of immense fear and paranoia: paranoia of your neighbor, paranoia of even your friends. Bounties were offered by the monarchy for information on underground activists and their sympathizers. Some people sold their activist friends out to feed their own kids, pay for an emergency medical operation, etc. There was no freedom of speech and no freedom of thought without the huge risk of violent consequence.

        This collective paranoia was also prevalent in the army ranks. Before the coup. And after the coup. Except it had doubled up after the coup: generals fearing a mutiny from within and political assassinations from without. After the coup, which is referred to in history books as a ‘revolution’, Nasser was appointed the position of Deputy Prime Minister. He served in this post till 1956, when he became president. In 1953, being a socialist, he introduced dramatic land reforms that benefited the farmers – generations of farmer families had been working the ‘king’s’ land for barely any money. Nasser also had invited the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood to participate in the new government but they refused – hateful of his secular socialism, they attempted to assassinate him in 1954. This is where the Moslem Brotherhood problem began. Nasser, having survived the assassination, ordered a crackdown on them and had their leader imprisoned. Two years later he became president, a very popular president, who’d made some very fierce enemies in his rise to power. The Brits bitterly wanted his head, so did the French, the israelis and the moslem brotherhood. Also, within the army ranks, there were several prominent generals who were capitalist ideologues and who despised his socialism and his friendship with the Soviet Union. Nasser calculated that a coup d’etat from within was his greatest threat, because these people have actual direct access to him on a daily basis. His thinking was that if he appointed a real spark of a deputy, an intellectual general with leadership qualities, Nasser would be risking his life should that general become corrupted by his enemies who’d united together as a gang, for the sole purpose of destroying Nasser’s presidency and dis-empowering the Egyptian people again. Powerful people, who are imbalanced, are easily temped by more power offered to them. That’s the human condition. Nasser understood this and made his decision to place an innocuous Sadat, the smiley, dopey hashish smoker, as his deputy. When Nasser died, the west and israel already knew what Sadat was made of and they worked it to their advantage. They knew that he was malleable and impressed with accolades and posh salon audiences. They let him into their fancy salons, then dangled the Pulitzer peace prize before his stoned and mesmerized eyes. This is how Egypt was first sold down the river. Sadat, as we know, was assassinated by moslem brotherhood army officers, who rejected his ‘westernized’ political leanings, his secularism and his ‘surrender of Egypt to christians and jews’. Notable here also is that Mubarak was sitting right next to Sadat when the hand grenades were suddenly thrown in their direction with a hail of bullets following.
        link to youtube.com
        Mubarak’s paranoia was triple the paranoia of Nasser from there on.

        Here’s some links on Nasser and the Egyptian revolution of 1952:
        link to en.wikipedia.org
        link to en.wikipedia.org

        Walid, I honestly don’t have any expectations from the next election. It’s too early to tell anyway – there’s not even a completed official list of the candidates yet. What I do hope for actually is an honest and truly democratic election. Instilling a well-rooted democratic system is more important to me that the cult personalities of presidents. Egypt needs a solid system, so I’ll support that. Whoever takes power is all up to the Egyptian voters and not me. I very much doubt it would be a Mubarakite or an islamist. That’s not my reading of the pulse so far – but you never know come the time of elections: political waters rise and fall like crazy in the build up to any election.

        What I do know is that the moslem brotherhood’s actions when in power proved them to be against democracy. Showed them to be opportunists and abusers of democracy. They did not work towards strengthening a system that would be available for everyone’s benefit; on the contrary, they were religious elitists who went full-throttle at destroying from within, a fragile and newborn inclusivist system. Apart from my obvious ideological differences with the Moslem Brotherhood, I also really resent them for despoiling a working system that was paid for by the blood of the protestors during the Mubarak ouster. People had died to make that first election happen and the moslem brotherhood made waste of both the lives and deaths of these civilian martyrs.

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 6:34 pm

        It just gets better and better Taxi.

        Now the Egyptian military is planning military strikes against Gaza. Netenyahu and Israel must be struggling to contain their glee. Little wonder Barak was insisting the world support El-Sisi. He’s now doing their dirty work for them.

        Egypt drafts plans to launch strikes on Gaza terror targets
        link to timesofisrael.com

        Egyptian army mulls Gaza strike
        link to upi.com

      • Shingo
        October 4, 2013, 9:27 pm

        Seeing as you’re a fan of McClatchy Taxi, you might be interested in these articles.

        1. The counter – revolution is complete:

        “Three months after the Egyptian military ousted the country’s first democratically elected president, Egypt now resembles the kind of police state whose oppressive policies gave rise to an iconic Arab Spring.”

        And your beloved el Sissi has even embraced the sterotype of a military dictator:

        “The streets are lined with posters of Gen. Abdel Fatah el Sissi , the defense minister who engineered the ouster of President Mohammed Morsi’s on July 3. Already a campaign has begun calling for Sissi to run for president in elections tentatively scheduled for next year , though the jury remains out on whether he can deliver what Egyptians want most: a vibrant, or at least not dying, economy.”

        And it is pretty clear the Egytpain pubic have given up on the idea of revolution and resigned themselves to a return to the Mubarak era.

        “Both revolutionaries and the Brotherhood say the days of expecting revolutionary change are over. The public is weary of talk of change that so far has brought only instability.”
        link to mcclatchydc.com

        2. Egypt has also turned in a fascist police state, in which activists are having to return to the bad old Mubarak days of going underground. That includes the intellectual elites you keep harping about:

        “In Egypt, where nearly three years of political upheaval first toppled a tyrant, then ushered in and tossed out an Islamist government, and finally propelled a military man to power, activists of all stripes – many of them part of the country’s intellectual elite – are feeling the chill.

        To some, an increasingly authoritarian political climate is reminiscent of the bad old days under Hosni Mubarak. Back then many of those who dared dissent simply vanished into the maw of the security services, sometimes never to emerge.”

        And

        “These days, though, the official dragnet extends far beyond the Brotherhood. Criticizing the army, the mere questioning of government policy, or expressing views that could be construed as sympathetic toward dead and detained Islamist “terrorists” has become a dangerous game.

        “It’s clear that we are witnessing a sort of exclusion against anyone who is voicing a concern against the current authority,” said Badr Shafai, a professor and political science researcher at Cairo University. “Anyone who criticizes the authority would be subjected to it.”
        link to mcclatchydc.com

        I guess it’s to be expected that Egypt would become a mirror image of Saudi Arabia after becoming it’s poodle.

      • Shingo
        October 5, 2013, 7:38 am

        Taxi,

        The history you laid out is very informative thank you. I also want to apologise for my behavior. I’ve had some setbacks these past few weeks that knocked me off center and I am struggling to come to terms with them. I took out my frustrations and anger on you and you do not deserve it. I always enjoy reading your comments, even when I disagree with you and in spite of our differences, I still regard you as a kindred spirit.

        Still, I can’t help but feel that you are being selective in your criticisms and double standards with regard to the events in Egypt.

        Like any oppressive regime, the monarchy and the Brits had hundreds of thousands of spies, arresting people on mere suspicion of anti-monarchy ideology or activity; never to be heard from again

        From the reports I have been reading (and links I have provided fro McClatchy), this description pretty much fits the situation in Cairo today.

        What I do know is that the moslem brotherhood’s actions when in power proved them to be against democracy. Showed them to be opportunists and abusers of democracy.

        Again, I find this hypocritical of you and the supporters of the coup. First of all, there is nothing democratic about the actions taken by the military in ousting Morsi, but putting that aside, what do you have to say about the challenge facing Morsi in overcoming the Deep State from the Mubarak era?
        Surely, you would have to agree that the day Morsi took office, there culture and appointees of the government apparatus were still rife with Mubarak era cronies, appointees and loyalists.

        When someone is appointed to clean up a department or organization that is rife with corruption in most western countries, the first thing those people do is fire the old guard. That’s not considered a power grab or an abuse of democracy. It considered an essential first step in the process of reform.

        If a a true reformer is elected in the next Egyptian elections, he will be required to do this. Yet, when Morsi tried to do that, he was accused of being undemocratic and imposing the MB on the state.

        They were religious elitists who went full-throttle at destroying from within, a fragile and newborn inclusivist system.

        The system was never inclusivist. It wasn’t before Mubarak and it still isn’t. Secondly, to label the MB as religious elitists sounds to me like a complete characterization. The MB are typically socialist and believe in dividing wealth. That is one of the reason the Saudis find them to be such a threat, because the Saudis abhor the idea of sharing their wealth with the common folk.

        People had died to make that first election happen and the moslem brotherhood made waste of both the lives and deaths of these civilian martyrs.

        Again I find this hypocritical and blinkered.

        First of all, more people died in this coup that in 2011, and you put that down to their own fault for daring to defy the authorities. A huge contradiction if you ask me, seeing as that is what those who diedin 2011 were doing when they were murdered.

        Secondly, the people that died in 2011, died largely at the hands of the police force. The same police force who refused to enforce the law while Morsi was in office. The same police force who returned to work as soon as he was ousted.

        The next elections cannot possibly be honest and truly democratic ‘for many reason. Egypts military rulers have decided that a large segment of the population is forbidden from participating.

      • Taxi
        October 5, 2013, 12:04 pm

        Shingo,

        Thank you for your gracious apology. I humbly accept. I’m sorry things have been rough for you lately; I hope a resolution is within your reach – take heart.

        Let me take this opportunity too to return the apology, if in any way I offended you.

        You bring up many valid points and the answers to most of them are somewhat involved and time-consuming for me right now. I also will not have much time on my keyboard for the next couple of days either: it’s olive-picking season, we’ve just had the first autumn rains here in south Lebanon, and I’ve committed myself to helping my friend pick his olive grove with him for the next couple of days, by which time I think this thread will be closed for comments. But I’m sure we will have another opportunity soon on MW to discuss and share the spicy spaghetti bowl that’s on the current Egyptian political table.

        But I’d just like to briefly clarify what I think are possibly a couple of misunderstandings.

        Indeed, I see the events in Egypt as a revolution, a continuation of the 2011 revolt. I will get into why I see it as such at the next MW Egypt article. I would also like to discuss the definition of ‘revolution’ too in the hope of clarifying the direction of my thinking. I consider myself a people supporter and I wholeheartedly support the Egyptian people’s struggle for democracy and independence. This is the base of my support. I do not support the Egyptian army, but I support the people’s support of the Egyptian army. I understand the strategy behind the army’s maneuverings, but I don’t necessarily agree with all of them. I do not see the army as the enemy of the people of Egypt, but the enemy of the moslem brotherhood, be they Egyptian MBs, Libyan MBs, Palestinian MBs, Saudi MBs, Afghani MBs, Chechneyan MBs etc. I will also get into explaining why I regard islamists as separate from their nationalities (briefly: this is how they regard themselves too).

        I also look forward to discussing the current interim government’s machinations with you, Shingo, and I promise to be a fair and good listener. My intention will not be to change minds, but to share what I know and hopefully learn from your opposing point of view too. We all each have pieces of the puzzle, and put together, we all benefit from the assemblage.

        Dearest Shingo, I have always really admired and valued your contributions and your thinking. Okay we have differences regarding Egypt – no biggie – I still earnestly value our cyber friendship and would very much like to remain on the same team as you. Always.

        Thank you again for reaching out in friendship. It means a lot to me.

      • just
        October 5, 2013, 12:12 pm

        What I just read gave me goosebumps.

        Thank you Taxi and Shingo.

      • Walid
        October 5, 2013, 3:00 pm

        Taxi, glad that little thing with Shingo is over; I’m a big fan of both of you. Speaking of fans, I see you’re a big fan of Nasser and your brief history of him would surely be music to the ears of like fans. But there was also a dark side. Starting with the coup of the young officers that he led along with the older and senior officer Mohammed Naguib, no sooner was Farouk out of the way when Nasser starting showing his intransigence with any and all that opposed him. Naguib that had developed a sympathy to the Muslim Brother was removed from power and placed under a house arrest that lasted 18 years.

        Nasser invented the army’s dissolving of all political parties and of jailing opponents, something you are seeing of the army and of Sisi today. For the elections of his second term as President in 1965, he disallowed from running every one off his arrivals for the post. He made some wrong calls that cost Egypt dearly, one of his biggest was pissing off the US that had approved granting him the needed loan to build the Aswan Dam, by buying arms from the USSR. The US ended up cancelling its participation in the Aswan which landed Nasser permanently in the lap of the USSR.

        With Nasser it was to be done his way or not done at all. Whenever things got uncomfortable such as with the frequent bread and other food riots, Nasser would start beating the drum about a war with Israel to distract the natives while it was later proven that Nasser was actually trying for a peace deal with the Israelis that kept giving him the cold shoulder. Nasser did a lot of good for the people of Egypt but there was also some bad. There’s lots more about the other Nasser, but it’s not worthwhile going into this at this point. Looking at Netanyahu today, he appears to have taken a lesson from Nasser in his incessant harping on Iran to distract everyone to his problems at home and for his devious plans for the Palestinians.

        You talk about your hopes for the elections that should come sooner or later. For Egypt’s elections, keep in mind that for the last elections in 2009 in Lebanon where you are now located, it was reported that the Saudis’ political contribution was of about $600 million and the US $400 million to ensure that their horse would win. It did by only a few thousands on a total voter list of about 750,000, but not enough to rule the country. So you can expect a similar heavy $$$ participation in Egypt.

        Getting back to where we started from, Taxi, I don’t like the Brothers any more or any less than you do. I just joined this discussion to express my disappointment on how they are being treated. The same treatment of the Brothers in Syria is behind what’s started the current revolt there.

      • Taxi
        October 5, 2013, 4:45 pm

        Walid,
        Even god has a dark and punitive side. Apparently.

        There’s a treacherous and humongous amount of political history in the middle east. The place is so damn thick with it. The past never dies here. Every old and new event, crowding and sucking out the same air. It’s hard for the spleen to absorb it all sometimes. It’s all so fitful! And it’s everywhere you go – there’s no getting away from politics and political history when you’re in the Middle East. Everyone yammers away talking politics and political history here. Some informed, others not so – but all talk politics and history. We don’t collectively do this in America. The past is irrelevant when the present is comfortable? I was here as a child, and visiting it again as an adult, living in it, I now understand my father’s attraction to the Mideast in ways I hadn’t before. He loved dramas about the powerful. He loved dramas about the meek. And he loved chatter-boxes cuz he was one too. Oof! The middle east is something else! Wild gumbo pot of characters, especially in the Arab political arena. All I can tell you, Walid, is that it must be a real crazy head-trip to be at the top of the ladder in the middle east.

      • Shingo
        October 5, 2013, 10:23 pm

        Let me take this opportunity too to return the apology, if in any way I offended you.

        You haven’t offended me Taxi. It was I who started this whole thing and it was after a one too many wines last night that I got over myself came to my senses. Annie’s reprimand didn’t hurt either. ;-)

        Anyway, I still look forward to seeing you in Sydney when you get down here and extend an invitation to home if ever you need a place to stay.

        I do not support the Egyptian army, but I support the people’s support of the Egyptian army.

        I have a problem with the reference to the Egyptian people. Just because SOME Egyptians support the actions of the military, or support Morsi’s ouster, it does not make it the desire of all Egyptians. No matter how ba a job the MB were doing, there was one legitimate means to remove them at it was not used. That casts a dark cloud over any future attempts at democracy for Egypt because it sets the precedent that democracy will only be tolerated if the right people are elected. This follows the same outcomes that we saw in Gaza and Algeria.

        I will also get into explaining why I regard islamists as separate from their nationalities

        That will itself make for an interesting discussion.

        If I were to be perfectly honest, I have no time for the MB. They’ve proven to be grossly incompetent, tone deaf, reactionary, close minded and completely out of touch. I won’t even get into their medieval attitudes to women or social issues. When Morsi gave support to the Syrian rebels and called for Assad to be removed, I gave up on them.

        But through it all, the one important factor that remained was that they were the legitimate elected leadership of Egypt and it was for Egyptians to decide who that should be.

        It’s become clear from the different factions that have emerged among the Syrian rebels that not all Islamists are the same. There are the MB type backed by Qatar and the Salafi type Islamists backed by Saudi Arabia, and we have witnessed that they do not get along. The Saudis were motivated by a desire to get rid of the MB, and knowing that their motives are virtually always malevolent, when the Saudis throw so much money at Egypt, I cannot help but the Egyptians have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.

        The army is not so much the enemy of the people of Egypt, as the enemy of Egyptian democracy. They are a law unto themselves and driven entirely by self interest, not the interest of the country.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 5, 2013, 11:36 pm

        shingo, taxi, you both mean so much to me. i can’t describe the relief, i was so worried.

    • Citizen
      October 3, 2013, 4:39 am

      @ Shingo
      Me too. The US funded Egyptian military and Israel work hand-in-hand to suppress the Palestinians–that’s what the huge chunk of US foreign aid annually to these two countries is mostly about; the end game result remains continued Israeli hegemony in the Middle East. Yes, not Egypt, but the Egyptian Military is a total whore, bought and paid for by America to benefit Israel’s agenda.

  10. OlegR
    October 3, 2013, 4:02 am

    I wonder what would our resident Baathist Taxi has to say about this article.

    • Taxi
      October 3, 2013, 9:27 pm

      Oleg,

      You will NEVER be a mideasterner. Hard as you cling to your stolen loot, you will still be forced back to your Russian homeland.

  11. yrn
    October 3, 2013, 4:54 am

    Egypt is taking care about Egypt interest.
    They don’t give a s**t if it is the Palestinians or any other nation.
    Once Hamas started with their issues and Egypt understood they are becoming a threat, they are dealing with it as any other Nation would do.
    Issue is that they don’t give any reporter or news agency to cover anything they do and they do it as most Arab Countries do it, area closed.
    Maybe Mondowiess will send Allison Deger over and she will have the capability and freedom to move and report.

    • just
      October 5, 2013, 4:11 pm

      No matter how much Egypt cares or doesn’t care about Palestinians… It is ISRAEL and the complicity of the US who have and continue to destroy the indigenous people of Palestine and steal their land.

      It’s all ‘ fallout’ from the cruelty and hegemonic ambitions of “western” machinations, and their installment of dictators. It’s unnatural and awful.

      1S1P1V– otherwise– LEAVE. You cannot keep 25%, 50%, 78%– give it ALL back and ask for permission to be there as a good and honest neighbor. One who actually believes in peace and international law. Walk it, show it, stop your bs.

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