I’m a Lutheran member of a Jewish organization, and I support Presbyterian divestment

Morgan Bach

Morgan Bach

My name is Morgan, and I’m part of the Jewish Voice for Peace delegation to the Presbyterian (PCUSA) General Assembly. I’m also a member of Bay Area chapter of Jewish Voice for Peace.

I’m not Jewish. Actually, I’m Lutheran, and I want to share my relationship, as a Christian, with JVP. Often I’m asked what brought me into a space of Jewish social justice activism, and I tell them it was my experience living and volunteering in Palestine that made me reach out for Jewish solidarity.

My first visit to Palestine/Israel lasted for three weeks, and I was so disheartened by what I saw: an entrenched military occupation that showed no signs of ever being lifted.

The roads and outposts and infrastructure I saw were for the benefit of Israeli settlers, at the expense of Palestinian communities. I could see no security justification for this oppression, actually it seemed obvious that this oppression made Israelis much less safe. I make the same criticisms of my own government’s policies, and yet I was afraid to speak out against the Israeli occupation.

When I returned home to the States, I reached out for an interfaith consensus on Palestinian rights. At the time, I wasn’t sure it existed. All I saw was controversy and tension, and it distressed me that I offended some of my Jewish friends when I talked about Palestinians struggling under Israeli occupation. Looking back, I put fear above my own values and my own witness, and I failed to remember controversial struggles for justice that came before me. It’s my privilege to forget. I am a privileged person.

But solidarity gave me strength, and Jewish solidarity was easy to find. I had met Israeli activists demonstrating against their own military with Palestinians in the West Bank. I found Rabbis Brant Rosen and Brian Walt, and their Jewish Fast for Gaza. I joined Jewish Voice for Peace. These voices gave me courage that I should have had all along.

On Monday, a member of the JVP delegation reminded the Middle East Peace committee that they don’t need Jewish permission to follow their conscience and divest from companies that profit from the Israeli occupation. I can say from experience that this is easier recommended than accepted. I sought Jewish permission to speak out for Palestinian rights, and I’m not the only one.

When Christian delegations go to Palestine/Israel and visit Christian communities in Bethlehem, Ramallah and Jerusalem, they tend to come back with a greater commitment to justice and solidarity with Palestinians. They come back with a deeper understanding of what it means to live under Israeli occupation than most Jewish delegations, which tend to stay in Israel.

I know that there are exceptions to this rule, but we can’t ignore the impact of witness, and where groups choose to travel if we’re going to address the disconnect between Christian and Jewish congregations on the issue of Palestine/Israel.

I’ve been to Jewish congregations that have reported from their trips, and I’ve been to Christian congregations that have reported from their trips. If there is a disconnect between Jews and Christians on how to address the Israeli occupation, it’s because Christian delegations spend time in the occupied Territories, and bring their witness back to their congregations, and General Assemblies.

Most members and supporters of Jewish Voice for Peace I’ve met have also witnessed the occupation first hand, and I come back to that simple fact when I get weary from hearing “this issue is too complicated” or “you’re not considering both sides.”

Have you seen both sides of the wall?

Look at the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship and the energy they brought back from their January delegation with Interfaith Peace-Builders. Read their testimonies and you can see how many organizations they interacted with, and the questions they asked about how to best support justice work on the ground. I know that when Lutherans travel to the Holy Land and engage with their Christian brothers and sisters, they come back ready to advocate for Palestinian rights. They come back with stories from Deheisheh refugee camp in Bethlehem, and the Tent of Nations farm, which recently had 1,500 of its trees uprooted by the Israeli military. They come back with stories of stolen land, stolen water, and people who are prohibited from going to Jerusalem, only minutes away.

Christian witnesses to the occupation are growing in number. So are Jewish witnesses. This is the reason why general assemblies are voting on divestment.

Presbyterians witnesses are bringing divestment forward as a way for the church to address structural injustices that prevent Palestinians from creating a viable economy and taking care of their basic needs. Without divestment, positive investment is a shallow gesture to people who are having their homes and livelihoods destroyed under Israeli occupation. I’ve seen this destruction with my own eyes, and I stand with my Presbyterian and Jewish and Palestinian brothers and sisters in supporting Overture 04-04, because it includes divestment from Caterpillar, Hewlett Packard and Motorola Solutions. These companies maintain the oppressive infrastructures that make peaceful solutions impossible, and violence inevitable.

You will hear a lot of arguments against divestment in the next few days. You will hear that divestment will damage interfaith relations, that it’s too rash, and extreme, and will alienate our Jewish neighbors.

And yet, the letter signed by 1,700 rabbis against Presbyterian divestment, does not include the word occupation once. The writers of this letter should have mentioned it, so that Presbyterian witnesses to the occupation would take it seriously. I simply cannot.

That extreme Israeli policies would isolate American Jewish communities from an emerging interfaith consensus is not something to be celebrated. It’s a tragedy. That’s why I support the efforts of Jewish Voice for Peace to educate, support and lift up Jewish voices of witness and compassion for both Israelis and Palestinians. The conversation is changing.

Fellow Christians, I ask that you follow your instinct for justice, and listen to interfaith voices in support of divestment. Our coalition is present at the Assembly, and each person wearing a purple and green stole carries an amazing story of witness. It has been a life-changing experience for me to meet new Presbyterian and Jewish partners for peace this week. I believe that these are the prophetic voices that are truly leading the way.

Posted in BDS, Israel/Palestine

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  1. thank you morgan. wonderfully stated.

    • morgan, you’re the closest thing to rachel corie i’ve ever heard of. you, and all your fellows involved here, are beautiful beautiful people.
      i called up your tennessee headquarters yesterday to congratulate your delegation.
      but i’m just afraid your efforts are too meek. the letter from the 17oo rabbis is just another perfect example of the historic lies and truth-perversions of these psychotic zionist maniacs.
      they’re the ones with the military power behind them, israel and their host puppet america. even if most americans suddenly awoke from their anesthetic stupor and realized the truth about terror israel, and they all demonstrated in the streets like vietnam, the powers would just use that as an excuse for martial law to be declared with mass arrests and the real police state would finally show its hideous face.
      but still, keep up your good work!

  2. I encourage your views, but at the same time christian zionism is what in part upholds this occupation due the political groups in america and their lobbying/power.

    • W.Jones says:

      Right, you can’t generalize, because there are Christians who are pro-Israeli nationalists too.

      When Christian delegations go to Palestine/Israel and visit Christian communities in Bethlehem, Ramallah and Jerusalem, they tend to come back with a greater commitment to justice and solidarity with Palestinians.
      It’s probably true that even C.Zionist groups go to the Palestinian territories because they go to Bethlehem for the church of the Nativity, but it often isn’t a long stay.

  3. Shmuel says:

    Thanks, Morgan, for a very moving report and appeal.

    • bintbiba says:

      Your report is truly inspiring, Morgan. I am a Humanist (no particular religion) and I receive all of the JVP petitions and sign them all . My Faith is in young and sincere people like you that WILL make this sad world a much better place.I may not live to see it ,but hopefully my children and grandchildren will .

      • just says:

        I consider/fancy myself a humanist as well, bintbiba.

        I wish nobody felt that they needed to identify their religion (or lack thereof) in order to engage in this quest for justice. It just plays into the hands of the extremists on all sides, who will try to exploit anything and anyone to further their cause. It can also lead to divisions and distractions along the noble path, because agitators look for differences rather than similarities.

        Congratulations on finding your way and your niche, Morgan. It is through people like you that change can come where it is so desperately needed.

  4. Feathers says:

    Yesterday Chris Hedges and Noam Chomsky talked about militarization, and how the “intellectual elites” took over the role of running the nation, with the rest of us mere “spectators” to be guided by their propaganda. The masses are conditioned to acquiesce to war. At the heart of that conditioning of the masses is the dehumanization of the Other.

    In a conversation with Prof. John Dower, Dr. Sanho Tree spoke about the conditioning that is essential to change an 18- or 19-year old human into a soldier who would kill. At the heart of that conditioning is the dehumanization of the Other.

    The most potent defense — rather, antidote — to that relentless process of conditioning to hate through dehumanization is to put eyes on the Other, human-to-human.

    That seems to be what happened to Phil Weiss: he travelled to Palestine and saw human beings, not the demonized caricatures of the manufacturers of war. It seems to be what happened to Morgan Bach: she went to Palestine and observed reality-in-reality, not a created reality whose purpose is to serve a private agenda. Morgan Bach, and those delegates at the Presbyterian Conference who, like her, wear the Just Peace badge of the Israel-Palestine Mission Network, are history’s NEW actors, who are working to create a JUST reality and the reality of justice.

    • seafoid says:

      If you don’t grow up in the Hebrew bubble and instead grow up in a normal country where everyone has rights it’s hard to go to Palestine to see what Israel does to the Palestinians- you can’t possibly look at what Israel does persecution- wise and agree with it.

      • DaBakr says:

        or-if you grow up in Israel you get to experience as neighbors all races and all religions living their lives with full access to all the rights of a thriving multi-cultural nation. is it perfect? nobody said it was perfect. but its good
        and the nations enemies know it. but , consumed with self-righteous indignation, they go to extremes to discount every single issue in the nations history as some type of lie, as if it is the biggest conspiracy on the planet earth when the truth is right here on the ground. flaws and all, for anyone to examine and see. including megan

        • seafoid says:

          Jim crow is shit, dabakr. If you think jim crow is the best the world’s showcase of Judaism is capable of, you need to get out more.

          • DaBakr says:

            hardly jim crow. look up who just made head general of golani brigrade. jim crow my ass. (but then you’ll have some shtty excuse about collaborating no less. uh-hm) this is no ‘token’ placement like exists in US. this is the real deal showing Israel is by no means racist at heart like so many here try to convince themselves with singular context ‘proofs’. Zionism fails? again, my ass

          • seafoid says:

            Separate buses, different laws for non jews, water allocated by religion, it’s Jim Crow wearing a kippa.
            And tokenism doesn’t mask the stench of jewish cruelty.

          • Woody Tanaka says:

            Dabakr: “hardly jim crow.”

            No, worse than Jim Crow. And hiring a Druze to do your dirty work doesn’t change that. They’ve long collaborated with you. The Jim Crow comes from how you treat Palestinians Arabs, Muslims and Christians alike.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          Oh, bull. You get, as neighbors, millions of people you are oppressing in their very own land, based on the fact they’re not Jews, as you and your demonic ideology justifies stealing more and more of their land, murdering more and more of their children and destroying more and more of their lives. You’re a typical lying Zionist, but I wonder why the mods let you people post your lies here. It’s quite disgusting that they permit you to poison the proceedings so.

          • DaBakr says:

            why don’t you point out any “lie” in the above post for starters then work your way down. I do not lie and have no reason to lie as much as you may like to hurl accusations around. opinions are not considered lying unless you want to claim to be as big a lier here as all you accuse.

            * and as for lying: what bus is separate based on religion? and what you claim are laws based on religion are laws based on exceptions in other countries. I allow that your singular focus is on Israel and Israel has laws that end up being discriminatory and certainly can use updating especially pending a peace treaty but don’t act like religious exemption laws aren’t common throughout the region. Their are nations I could never set foot in due to my ethnic status that are less scrutinized then Israel ever is.

            ** and if this site ever ‘banned’ me it would be your loss not mine. I come here out of respect that my opponents deserve to have an honest airing of the pov of a huge chunk of my populace. If you simply want to play in your own sandbox you will be the ones deprived of a target to aim your screeds at.

          • Shingo says:

            why don’t you point out any “lie” in the above post for starters then work your way down.

            We already have. The fact that Israel has appointed a handful of Druze and Arabs to enforce their apartheid policies does not make Israel anything other than apartheid.

            You lie through your teeth, because as Moshe Sharett admitted in the mid-1950s, Israel cannot be ruled without deceit as if it’s essential for the Jewish state’s survival.

            “I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism. These are historical facts that cannot be altered. . . In the end, history will justify both the stratagems and deceit and the acts of adventurism. All I know is that I, Moshe Sharett, am not capable of them, and I am therefore unsuited to lead this country”
            Simha Flapan, p. 52-53

            In other word, what Moshe Sharett is saying that the “Jewish state” is incapable of surviving without lying to its citizens and the rest of the world and by extension, it’s supporters cannot excuse Israel’s criminality without lying to the world either.

            I allow that your singular focus is on Israel and Israel has laws that end up being discriminatory and certainly can use updating

            What do you mean updating? The segregation laws have been recently introduced. Try as you might, these are not anachronisms that have been overlooked from decades ago, they are deliberate segregationist policies that are intended to reinforce apartheid Israel.

            y but don’t act like religious exemption laws aren’t common throughout the region.

            Then don’t act like Israel is a democracy, seeing as the regimes to which you are comparing are clearly not democratic.

            Their are nations I could never set foot in due to my ethnic status that are less scrutinized then Israel ever is.

            And they don’t claim to be democracies, which is why Israel should stop making that claim until it stops being an ethnic supremacist apartheid state.

            . I come here out of respect that my opponents deserve to have an honest airing of the pov of a huge chunk of my populace.

            if you had any respect for your opponents you’s stop insulting them with your lies and hasbara.

          • seafoid says:

            DaBakr

            It’s the lies about apartheid that tell me Israel is doomed. You can’t be honest and say to the goys “this is Jewish land, we make the rules” like you do in Hebrew amongst yourselves. No, it’s all denial. Israel is a normal country and we treat the n#ggers mighty fine here and they are so happy to live under our enlightened patronage.

            The goys are figuring out slowly that Israel is not what you say it is.
            And when TSHTF it’s going to be awesome.

            G-d wouldn’t have it any other way, I guess. She has had so many problems with her people losing their way , hasn’t she ?

          • talknic says:

            @ Woody Tanaka ” You’re a typical lying Zionist, but I wonder why the mods let you people post your lies here. It’s quite disgusting that they permit you to poison the proceedings so.”

            But it’s revealing. I’ve recommended MW to numerous people who’ve come to realize the amount of BS spread by the likes of Dabakr & co thru their lies being shown for what they are and just how low they’re willing to go.

            Ironically the Dabakrs don’t seem to understand the dis-service they do to their own cause.

        • Shingo says:

          or-if you grow up in Israel you get to experience as neighbors all races and all religions living their lives with full access to all the rights of a thriving multi-cultural nation.

          The other apartheid state, South Africa also considered itself a thriving multi-cultural nation.

          Charles Manson wasn’t perfect either, but I am sure his mother had some nice things to say about him.

          • DaBakr says:

            oh right-like South Africa gave its multi-coloured peoples the vote, the right to be members of parliament, become judges, doctors that, omg, treat ‘Jews’. (how could we ‘racist’ Israeli Jews stand to have Muslim doctors treat us?
            Your pyramid of lies is toppling. Israel has much to rectify before it becomes the ‘perfect’ nation but its far from the ‘jim crow’ hell you imagine

          • Shingo says:

            oh right-like South Africa gave its multi-coloured peoples the vote, the right to be members of parliament, become judges, doctors that, omg, treat ‘Jews’. (how could we ‘racist’ Israeli Jews stand to have Muslim doctors treat us?

            The multi-coloured peoples had a right to vote in their bantustans, which Israel has not only copied but which Sharon admired as a solution to Israel’s Arab problem.

            It’s you lies that are toppling your hasbara.

            Suggesting Israel has much to rectify is like suggesting Nazi Germany came up with some misdirected policies. Israel will never even aspire to becoming the ‘perfect’ nation because it wants to be an apartheid one more than it wants democracy and equality.

        • Shingo says:

          look up who just made head general of golani brigrade

          And his job is to enforce Israel’s apartheid policies. And yes, Israel is among the most racist countries in the world. So much so that it ranks among the most intolerant category and it not ever categorized as a democracy, but a hybrid regime.

          • just says:

            The brigade’s mascot is the olive tree.

            You cannot fault the Israelis for their gift for bs.

          • DaBakr says:

            so I take it your opinion of Israeli Druze people is as low as your opinion of Jewish Israelis… my my

          • Shingo says:

            so I take it your opinion of Israeli Druze people is as low as your opinion of Jewish Israelis… my my

            Nice deflection. You mean like this opinion?
            link to 972mag.com

            What about the opinion of these Druze?
            link to jnews.org.uk

            The Druze people are not even recognized as Israeli nationals so they are by defaults. 3rd class citizens in Israel.

            My my, you really do love apartheid don’t you?

          • DaBakr says:

            Fk Moshe Sharett. Sorry that one nitwits opinion isn’t going to bring a nation to its knees in abject guilt. Also sorry you see things so crystal clear that you have no room for any movement. It reminds me that the old canard about ‘behind every hand-wringing leftist liberal is a tyrant in sheeps clothing. I know for certain that many Palestinians laugh at your viewpoint while they may appreciate the sentiment. When one speaks of equating democracy with the destruction of Zionism I feel just as strongly in the willing denial of the consensus here as you feel the Jewish nation is in denial as a whole.

          • Shingo says:

            Fk Moshe Sharett. Sorry that one nitwits opinion isn’t going to bring a nation to its knees in abject guilt.

            Similarly, one nitwits opinion isn’t going to absolve them of guilt either.

            Also sorry you see things so crystal clear that you have no room for any movement.

            Of course I do. There is plenty of room for any movement beginning with the occupation moving out of Palestine.

            It reminds me that the old canard about ‘behind every hand-wringing leftist liberal is a tyrant in sheeps clothing.

            Which in turn reminds me of the obvious fact that behind every liberal Zionist there is a right wing Zionist racist supremacist waiting to come out of the closet.

            I know for certain that many Palestinians laugh at your viewpoint while they may appreciate the sentiment.

            I know for certain that we’ve heard that crap before from MY1 who keeps insisting all the Palestinians he knows love being occupied, expelled from their homes, seeing their homes demolished and look forward to night raids.

            When one speaks of equating democracy with the destruction of Zionism I feel just as strongly in the willing denial of the consensus here as you feel the Jewish nation is in denial as a whole.

            You are entitled to feel whatever you like, but we already have Olmert and Barak on record admitting that Zionism is incompatible with democracy, such is reality.

        • Bumblebye says:

          Israel is wholly based on dubious mythology and outright lies.

          link to youtube.com

          • DaBakr says:

            well, the same can be said of the USA but it doesn’t mean its not a great nation.

          • Shingo says:

            well, the same can be said of the USA but it doesn’t mean its not a great nation.

            It could be argued that apartheid South Africa and even Nazi Germany were great nations.

          • Woody Tanaka says:

            “well, the same can be said of the USA but it doesn’t mean its not a great nation.”

            Perhaps not, but we can say that Israel is not a great nation in any sense of the word.

        • Kris says:

          >>DaBakr: “or-if you grow up in Israel you get to experience as neighbors all races and all religions living their lives with full access to all the rights of a thriving multi-cultural nation.”

          Wow, just like south Texas when I was a girl there in the late 50s! Our “neighbors all races,” who we felt were “born to sing and dance” (and eat watermelon, and be grateful for the scraps from the holiday dinners they cooked and served for us) were perfectly happy under Jim Crow, don’t you know. We all understood each other–they understood which lines not to cross, and we understood that white privilege ruled. Our simple, happy lives were turned upside down in the 60′s by yankee outside-agitators like Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, and James Chaney, who created discontent in our “neighbors all races.” Those yankees actually thought that our “neighbors all races” should have the same rights we white people had!

          Sort of the way the rest of the world is realizing that Palestinians should have the same rights that Israeli Jews have. I have to specify Israeli “Jews,” because, as you know, there is no such thing as “Israeli,” since Israeli Jews are privileged under Israeli law.

          • Shingo says:

            Sort of the way the rest of the world is realizing that Palestinians should have the same rights that Israeli Jews have. I have to specify Israeli “Jews,” because, as you know, there is no such thing as “Israeli,” since Israeli Jews are privileged under Israeli law.

            Oh snap!!

  5. seafoid says:

    Zionism fails the justice test. And if it isn’t just, what is the point ?

    • W.Jones says:

      Power, justice for one group only? Other groups don’t count so it’s justice?

      • DaBakr says:

        and as if I need to affirm the state of Israeli democracy here is a recent quote by MK Zoabi where she explicitly applauds exploiting:

        “the power inherent in democracy to undermine the moral and political legitimacy of Israel.”

        irony.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “and as if I need to affirm the state of Israeli democracy ”

          it’s no democracy. When you don’t hold 4 1/2 million people without a say in the government that controls their lives, having done so for three generations, then you maybe get to call yourselves a democracy. Until then, it just means you’re a run of the mill liar.

        • eljay says:

          >> DaBakreee: … here is a recent quote by MK Zoabi where she explicitly applauds exploiting: “the power inherent in democracy to undermine the moral and political legitimacy of Israel.”

          The Jerusalem Post article continues:
          >> Her pearls of wisdom include the following: “A Jewish state leads to the end of democracy,” “The largest threat to Zionism is democracy,” and “to demand full civic and national equality is actually to demand the end of Zionism. So we don’t hate Zionism. Zionism hates democracy.”

          Yup. Zionism is Jewish supremacism. Zionism does not strive to ensure that Israel is and remains a secular and democratic state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, ex-pats and refugees, equally. Its goal is to ensure that Israel is and remains a supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

          >> Her bottom line is that Israel’s disappearance as a Jewish state is democracy’s praiseworthy, progressive objective. To oppose said objective is undemocratic.

          Absolutely. “Jewish State” is a supremacist construct. To support “Jewish State” is to support supremacism. Supremacism is not democracy.

        • talknic says:

          DaBakr “and as if I need to affirm the state of Israeli democracy here is a recent quote by MK Zoabi where she explicitly applauds exploiting:

          “the power inherent in democracy to undermine the moral and political legitimacy of Israel.”

          irony”

          Indeed. Ironic that you can only produce a truncated cherry picking. The missing words most likely tell the truth to what she actually said.

          • DaBakr says:

            I think we know that she is not for a Jewish and/or Zionist state but she can’t deny the democratic process that put her in the position of MK is what she wants to exploit to undermine what she sees as the deficiency of israels ‘democracy’. It certainly is an ironic statement and pov-probably the only place in the ME where an MK can state as much

          • Shingo says:

            but she can’t deny the democratic process that put her in the position of MK is what she wants to exploit to undermine what she sees as the deficiency of israels ‘democracy’.

            It was not a democratic process that put her in the position of MK and it wasn’t a democratic process that stripped her of her position as MK.

          • DaBakr says:

            isn’t “truncated cherry-picking” the name of the game here? I could list dozens of instances just off the top of my head and that doesn’t even include reports that turn out to be completely false that are never ‘corrected’ because some element can be construed as ‘true’. As for not understanding the level of “disservice” I do “my cause” ? please. I am not a child. I understand where I am on the internet, on MW and what the views of anti-Zionist are. I even understand there is a basic assumption that your trying to do ‘right’ by the world and you believe Israelis are trying to do wrong. I have a much more farsighted pov then I expect you could ever imagine-except for the ‘racist’ and ‘bigoted’ diatribes hurled against me.

          • Shingo says:

            I could list dozens of instances just off the top of my head and that doesn’t even include reports that turn out to be completely false that are never ‘corrected’ because some element can be construed as ‘true’.

            I bet you can’t, based on the your abysmal track record of half truths, lies and hasbara.

            I have a much more farsighted pov then I expect you could ever imagine-except for the ‘racist’ and ‘bigoted’ diatribes hurled against me.

            That’s a physical impossibility. As a Zionist, your thinking and beliefs are constrained to a very narrow range of possibilities and limits. Zionism is anti intellectualism, and short sighted by it’s very nature, and thus, so are you.

          • talknic says:

            @ DaBakr “I think we know that she is not for a Jewish and/or Zionist state”

            She’s Israeli. If she didn’t want to be Israeli why is she an Israeli MK?

            “but she can’t deny the democratic process that put her in the position of MK is what she wants to exploit to undermine what she sees as the deficiency of israels ‘democracy’”

            Hey there, wake up, you’re using an UN-QUOTED section of an article. I.e., not the words of MK Zoabi. She’s not “quoted” as explicitly applauding anything!

            ” It certainly is an ironic statement and pov-probably the only place in the ME where an MK can state as much”

            But she didn’t ‘state as much’ What isn’t in “quotes” ISN’T what she stated!

            Your Hasbara BS ain’t gonna fly here pal. Try something else, because bullsh*t only sticks to the hands that try to throw it!

          • talknic says:

            @ DaBakr “isn’t “truncated cherry-picking” the name of the game here?”

            Your game … obviously. You DIDN’T link to a source so readers could read the whole in context and little wonder, when a source was found you were found out!

            “I could list dozens of instances just off the top of my head … etc etc “

            But you haven’t listed any.

            “As for not understanding the level of “disservice” I do “my cause” ? “

            Your lies and cherry picking are evidence of the fact that you cannot be trusted! Readers simply ain’t gonna believe anything you say. YOU give the impression that supporters of Israel’s illegal expansionism are liars.

            “I even understand there is a basic assumption that your trying to do ‘right’ by the world and you believe Israelis are trying to do wrong”

            Wrong. The majority of Israelis are very likely as oblivious as I was because they have been fed a diet of propaganda and outright lies and nonsense perpetuated by the Zionist Federation/Jewish Agency and successive Israeli Governments. I used to be an ardent admirer and defender of our Jewish state and all its excuses, until I looked closely. link to wp.me

            The BS that Israel didn’t proclaim any borders. Yet there is evidence of such a proclamation and recognition on which subsequent UN and UNSC resolutions are based.

            “..the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ link to trumanlibrary.org

            Try denying it.

            Perhaps the second most important document in the history of the modern state of Israel, on which Israel’s recognition was based, is missing from the Israeli Govt and educational narrative!

            The BS that the UN is biased against Israel. When in fact the majority of the hundreds of UN/UNSC resolutions against Israel are only reminders of its legal obligations and a prior UN/UNSC resolutions Israel has ignored. Had Israel adhered to International Law and the UN Charter and Israel taken notice of the first UN/UNSC resolutions, there’d be no need for hundreds of reminders.

            In fact, the UN has given Israel more opportunities to comply with the law and UN Charter than any other UN Member state in the history of the UN. Israel has ignored the opportunities preferring the illegal acquisition of territory instead.

            The BS that Five Arab states attacked Israel 1948… When in fact there are no UNSC resolutions against any Arab state for attacking Israeli territory because the Israeli Govt statements to the UNSC May 22nd 1948 tell us the war was in territory “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

            “I have a much more farsighted pov then I expect you could ever imagine”

            Why then are your falsehoods so easily be exposed?

            “except for the ‘racist’ and ‘bigoted’ diatribes hurled against me”

            A lie has no race pal!

        • talknic says:

          @ DaBakr “…. irony”

          The irony is that another pathetic zionist troll LIED on the internet thinking their BS won’t be uncovered. Seems stupidity and supporters of illegal Israeli expansionism go hand in hand

          Liars cannot be trusted. Time to change your abusername and start the pathetic routine anew.

          • DaBakr says:

            oh boy. y’all really told me , didn’t you. you called me a “liar” and said my whole nation is based on a ‘lie’. I am so flabbergasted. I have never debated with such a clueless bunch of mediocre-minded true-believers. and you think all Israelis are brainwashed? hah. No. You’ve read it “all”. All the things you have read on Israel expose the lie. No truth in anything a Zionist would ever promote as truth. And whats even funnier? It all happened before, more then once. You are evidently as much a part of the plan as your awful Zionists.

            oh…

            Better not read Chloe Valdary’s newest piece ‘native son’ lest you go apoplectic. Guess not all young educated people are buying into the ‘stuff’ your selling.

  6. seafoid says:

    Zionism is such a mindless ideology. Leave your brain at the door

    The lust for punishment of the Palestinians this week reminds me of this song

    Morons welcome. Blow my mind, Bibi blow my mind.
    And Judaism used to be so proud of its thinkers.

    • piotr says:

      As an old foggy, I have different associations with young troops eager for action getting orders from sage leaders. link to youtube.com

      • Feathers says:

        With respect, piotr, and from one old fogey to another, why is the patriotic motivation of one group hunkey-dorey, even if it’s a vicious pack of lies, as is this post-WWII training video by Theodore Geisel and Frank Capra, but the patriotic motivators of the OTHER are odious and outrageous?

        We have got to look at the Other as human beings, not as demons. Period. Full stop.

        • piotr says:

          I personally think that “Giovinezza, giovinezza, primavera di bellezza” sounds very nice. “Facetta nera” is perhaps even better (by the way, it means “cute black face”, so it would fit with the posted video).

          Applying oil to your skin can be very beneficial, I do it myself, but believing snake oil salesmen may be very un-beneficial.

  7. bilal a says:

    Whatever you do, don’t put Lutheran or Presbyterian on your resume’.

    Max Blumenthal ‏@MaxBlumenthal

    Anti-Semitism RT @washingtonpost Study: Putting religion on your resume hurts your job chances — unless you’re Jewish link to wapo.st

    link to twitter.com

    • DaBakr says:

      that study has got to be one of the most fatuous in recent history. A) it focuses on the southern US where there is like, less then .5% Jews. The premise of the study os absurd because employers have no right to ask what religion one adheres to in the 1st place.

      • Shingo says:

        that study has got to be one of the most fatuous in recent history. A) it focuses on the southern US where there is like, less then .5% Jews.

        Miami is a southern city Dufus. Are you telling us that Jews have no presence in that city?

      • Walid says:

        DaBakr, it’s 5% rather than the 1/2 of 1 % as you expressed it. Either way, both you and the wapo survey have the wrong numbers; the wapo report seems a disguised attempt to show Jews in a good light especially when compared to Arabs and other ethnic groups. The number of Jews from a report dated a few years back shows 1 out of every 20 Floridians is a Jew. And that’s not counting the Jewish snowbirds. Looks like you haven’t had the chance to visit that state yet.

        From the Manfred and Anne Lehmann Foundation that has an interesting history of Jews in Florida, especially in Miami :

        Understanding the growth of the Jewish community in Southern Florida is a very interesting exercise in Jewish history. Back in 1915 only ten Jewish families and ten Jewish bachelors lived in all of Dade County, Southern Florida. In 19400, 7,500 Jews lived in Miami, with a rapid growth to 40,000 in 1949, and 69,000 in 1950. In 1989 an estimated 238,000 Jews lived in Dade County. That is more Jews than live in Haifa, Israel. And today, more Jews live in Miami than in Chicago or Philadelphia. Although, New York is the Jewish capital of the United States with one in three U.S. Jews living in New York, Florida is a close runner-up with one in twenty Floridians being Jewish. If you combine three counties in Southern Florida — Dade, Broward and Palm Beach — they form the second largest Jewish community in the United States.

        link to manfredlehmann.com

  8. Thank you, Morgan.

    Would you please explain why you have found it so difficult not to ask for “Jewish permission” before speaking out for Palestinian rights? I could guess, but an exact explanation for you would be much better.

    There is also the question of what constitutes “Jewish permission”? For instance, would the approval of a single Jew suffice?

    • ritzl says:

      Agree. Great questions. I’d add, “And I’m not the only one.” What does that mean? A simple choice of phrasing, or does it actually mean that there are many people out there waiting for a Jewish consensus (i.e. collective permission) to form on the morality of killing Palestinians before they raise their voice to object?

      And once having sought and gained “permission” to agitate for Palestinians, if that “permission” was to be revoked by the same nebulous process it was granted, would she stop agitating for Palestinian rights?

      Good article. A lot of nobility in it. But that “permission” part is a pretty significant item. It’s odd that Ms. Bach even mentioned it, but I’m glad she did. It adds depth and perhaps an opportunity for insight.

      • Morgan Bach says:

        I think for Presbyterian commissioners, “permission” means going back to their congregations and not being inundated with protest from local Jewish congregations. It’s a little hard to believe that individual pastors would be punished for a church-wide decision, but the specter is looming large here. Ultimatums and threats are being made.

        It felt strange to promote Jewish Voice for Peace while promoting their message that Presbys don’t need Jewish permission to divest. Like, you don’t need permission, but here, we’re giving it to you! Ideally we should be able to follow our moral compass even if no one else stands with us, I just wanted to share my journey, since Christian-Jewish relations are a big theme of this assembly. I regret ever believing that Palestinian voices were not enough, and I hope I didn’t perpetuate that view here.

        • just says:

          “I regret ever believing that Palestinian voices were not enough, and I hope I didn’t perpetuate that view here.”

          You didn’t. You are doing good work, Morgan.

          “Ultimatums and threats are being made.”

          That is the tragedy that you are witnessing and experiencing. Stay strong and safe and whole.

        • MHughes976 says:

          If those of us who wish to support Palestinian rights – including the honourable Jewish people in our company – wait for a promise not to be called anti-Semites we will wait a long time.

          • seafoid says:

            The insult is dispensed kneejerkingly and is thus meaningless. If Israel can’tmanage to respect human rights it must be challenged. An amoral Israel makes as much sense as a psychopathic Atticus Finch.

          • just says:

            seafoid– you are an enduring treasure. I stopped in my tracks at this absolutely perfect comment today:

            “And if it isn’t just, what is the point ?”

            Now you bring dear Atticus into my mind again…justice.

          • MHughes976 says:

            It seems I have to reply to myself – I agree that there is something of the kneejerk about the array of accusations, always centred on anti-Semitism, that pour forth – will certainly come raining down on the heads of many innocent Presbyterians. The automatic style of the response may deprive it of objective credibility but not, I think and fear, either of meaning or of impact. I met someone only yesterday who expressed many opinions about many things but froze when the topic of Zionism came up – this in the same academic context where I had been told that my anti-Zionism amounted to ‘picking on Jews’. The whole discussion that I encounter is still dominated, or at any rate strongly affected, by the overriding need to avoid, in effect, being considered anti-Semitic. If I were a Zionist wielding this sword I wouldn’t think it was becoming blunt, even if my knees seemed to jerk a bit when I thrust it at the opposition, but that the old trusty weapons are still the best.

        • ritzl says:

          Hi Morgan, Your journey is admirable and inspirational. I did not mean to imply otherwise. Thank you for sharing your story.

          The reason “permission” sticks out is because it implies deference. To me, that deference was a principal reason the divestment resolution failed in the last GA. As I recall, the speakers against the resolution repeatedly cited it as a reason to vote no (as opposed to arguing the morality, which they couldn’t).

          PCUSA has sought to address that deference with “Zionism Unsettled.” As a study guide it provides them with internally-shared factual and therefore decision-making independence. When you included “permission” in your own personal path it suggested that your ability to support PCUSA’s move toward “non-deference” might be muted. Your comment here shows it will not be.

          Thanks for the clarification.

          Please continue to make a difference.

          Peace.

    • Kris says:

      I think most non-Jews understand what she means about seeking “Jewish permission.” Though the “antisemitic” card has lost much of its punch, Zionist Jews have been very successful since the Nakba at suppressing criticism of Israel by claiming that such criticism is “antisemitic.”

      I have Jewish friends (more accurately, I HAD Jewish friends, who are now acquaintances) who react very emotionally to any criticism of Israel’s abuse of the Palestinians, considering such criticism to be “blood libel,” and evidence of support for the Third Reich’s “final solution.” Not all of them are older than 60; some of them are in their 40s. These people honestly believe that Israel’s theft of Palestinian land is justified so that Jews in the U.S. can have a “back-up” country available to them. They believe that the Holocaust entitles Jews to be free of criticism as they destroy the lives of the Palestinians, who are non-people to them.

      No one likes to be the one standing up for justice for the Palestinians, who are not only far away, but are regularly demonized in our media, at the expense of being ostracized and condemned by Jews in our own liberal communities of friends right here at home. Morgan Bach, to her great credit, has found her voice for justice, and is helping more timid souls in her faith community to do the same.

      • seafoid says:

        I think it’s sad to hear of Jews using loaded terms such as blood libel and antisemitism in order to silence those who ask why Palestinians are without rights in greater Israel. The first time I went to the West Bank I saw the gross injustice of the system. Israelis may think the status quo is eternal but injustice corrodes a society and the end of the system when it comes is painful for those who turned their eyes away from the evil for the sake of a quiet life.
        Judaism is more important than Zionism. Both are at risk.

        • wes says:

          Seafoid

          “injustice”

          Where were you guys before israel.where were the presbeterreans when jews were getting the boot in the face
          before israel
          who stood up for justice
          in …..no jews allowed country clubs
          You were looking the “other” way

          so why not now or do you just pick and choose your “justice” depending on race colour or creed

          • seafoid says:

            Sorry Wes

            I wasn’t around when Nazis were murdering Jews.
            I just don’t see nihilism working out for Judaism. It didn’t work in Dixie.

          • American says:

            wes says:

            June 20, 2014 at 8:37 am

            Where were you guys before israel.where were the presbeterreans when jews were getting the boot in the face>>>>>>>

            They were all in the military fighting Hitler and Japan.
            Lucky for the Jews they were.

          • Shingo says:

            where were the presbeterreans when jews were getting the boot in the face
            before israel
            who stood up for justice
            in …..no jews allowed country clubs

            What are you blabbering about? Herzl proposed that antisemitism be encouraged to promote the move to create a Jewish state, while also promoting the idea that whoever happened to be living on the land earmarked for that state be driven off it.

            Hostage has pointed out that Jabotinsky, Weizmann, Herzl, Ruppin, and Ben Gurion ridiculed ordinary Jews in the Diaspora and used derogatory terms to describe them, like Yid, eunuchs, Orientals, & etc. These were “Zionist people” who claimed they were inventing a “new Jew” and they even attempted to employ eugenics in pursuit of their goals. So it is hardly ludicrous to give them credit for inventing a new people. See for example Etan Blooms dissertation on Arthur Ruppin, the Father of Jewish Settlement in Palestine.
            link to tau.ac.il

            So give up thi scrap about Israel standing up for anyone’s human rights.

          • talknic says:

            @ wes “Where were you guys before israel”

            Lemme see … that’s 66 years ago… Individuals were highly likely to have been small children, maybe primary school age. Might have been able to read or write, but unlikely to march or fight.

            Don’t they teach you about maths, chronology at Hasbara 101?

      • Kris says:

        I forgot to mention that, as well as fearing being ostracized and condemned by their circles of friends, many people keep silent because they don’t want their careers to be destroyed by Zionist vigilantes.

      • I suspect that under this sort of intense emotional pressure some (many?) Gentiles may internalize the false accusations and fear that in some way they really are being anti-Semitic if they criticize Israel “too harshly”. The existence of anti-Zionist Jews may give them a way out, enabling them to prove, at least to themselves, that the accusations are indeed false. This could be understood as anti-Zionist Jews “giving permission”. My own attitude is something like this: logically you should not need Jewish permission, but if you have a psychological need for such permission in order to speak out then be my guest.

    • bilal a says:

      permission can be retracted, once you are in the database

      FBI files reveal Anti-Defamation League [ domestic spying for zion ]
      link to electronicintifada.net

  9. Bravo, Morgan Bach.

  10. Sycamores says:

    Thanks for your insightful piece.

    interfaith solidarity to find courage to opposed Israeli occupation is an interesting point. finding strength within yourself to stand up against injustice can be a frightening path to ostracization for many.

    when someone says “this issue is too complicated” the answer should always be “for who?”

  11. Woody Tanaka says:

    The “permission” part is interesting. Clearly it is the result of a concerted effort by the Zionists to cause potential critics to self-censor. They prey on the fact that most people are decent people and those decent people who would be appalled at the barbaric treatment by Israel of the Palestinians are also not antisemites and would be appalled at the suggestion that they were. By doing everything in their power (slandering critics of Israel as antisemites; constantly raising the issue of the Holocaust where inappropriate; lying about Palestinians and Arabs; etc.) to conflate criticism of Israel with hatred of Jews, they hope to get the decent people who are appalled at Israel’s barbarism to hesitate and question whether they should keep quiet, because they don’t want to be slandered themselves.

    But upon a moment’s serious reflection, it is self-evidently foolish to self-censor or even to seek permission. Would you seek permission from white people to criticize the KKK? No, of course not. Would you seek permission from German-Americans to criticize the Nazi state? No, of course not. Would you seek permission from Japanese people to criticize the acts of the Empire during WWII or from Korean-Americans for permission to criticize the North Korean government?? No, of course not.

    Because in each case, you instinctively know, and it is self evident, that you’re making a valid, moral criticism and you harbor no improper bias or animus. The same is true in the case of the Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israelis, but, in that case, you’ve been bombarded with endless examples, subtle and overt, accusing critics of Israel as being antisemitism, false and improper references to the Holocaust, lies about the Arab and Muslim worlds, all the way to fools on the internet who respond to the mildest of criticisms of the policies of Israel with “Yeah, blame THE JOOOOOSSSS, NaZi!!!” and then you self-censor. Because who would want that to fall on them?

    Well, for me, screw that. The Zionist don’t get to tell me how to think or control when I talk, and if they believe I’m an antisemite because I believe that it’s wrong to oppress someone simply because they’re Palestinian living in Palestine, then they can go to hell. I know it’s false and their opinion doesn’t mean squat. Ask permission? Hell, no.

    • tokyobk says:

      Woody,

      I don’t think anyone needs permission Jewish or otherwise to follow their conscious. I also think in general Jewish feelings are less important than Palestinian rights.

      However, your examples don’t really fit because you are considering the Jews as Israelis and thus like the other power abusers you mentioned.

      The context for Jewish permission is Jews having been historically victims in the Christian world and therefore the correct analogy would be a white person saying he or she does not need black permission to have an opinion about say Affirmative Action.

      That is to say, even though there has been a history of white racism in the US a white person may have opinions about that issue and don’t need a Jesse Jackson or their cubicle mate who happens to be black to police their minds.

      I don’t see anything but respect from this author and I am glad because I do think especially Lutherans should speak with humility regarding Jews and rights, given their history and the ideas of their founder.

      There is nothing wrong with asking people to be sensitive especially when their own histories regarding others are tainted as pretty much all of ours are.

      • tree says:

        However, your examples don’t really fit because you are considering the Jews as Israelis and thus like the other power abusers you mentioned.

        No, he is considering Israelis as power abusers, something that knows no boundaries as far as race or religion goes; in other words, Jews are no less capable of being power abusers than anyone else, as the case of Israel profoundly illustrates. Therefore there is no need to get the “permission” of anyone to criticize those excesses.

        The context for Jewish permission is Jews having been historically victims in the Christian world and therefore the correct analogy would be a white person saying he or she does not need black permission to have an opinion about say Affirmative Action.

        No, your analogy is all wrong. Affirmation action is a US concept dealing with the historical victimhood of blacks within the US. Woody’s analogies are spot on because they deal with criticizing the reprehensible actions of a foreign state, not US policy questions like affirmative action. The proper analogy with respect to seeking “permission” from US blacks would be whites criticizing the genocide of Tutsis by Hutu extremists, or criticizing Idi Amin, or the Lord’s Resistance Army in Africa. No one I know seriously advocates that US whites cannot legitimately criticize tyrants in Africa without first getting “permission” to do so from black Americans.

        There is nothing wrong with asking people to be sensitive especially when their own histories regarding others are tainted as pretty much all of ours are.

        And that should likewise apply to Jews, whose “own histories” (in the collective rather than individual sense of history) now include over 100 years of victimization of Christians and Muslims. A fundamental problem of the present situation is that Zionist Jews ( and some Christian Zionists as well) have shown no such sensitivity and seem to think that none is required. Again this is the exceptionalist thought that Jews are morally incapable of doing what they are clearly doing in Israel, and thus it is acceptable to them to lash out at non Jews using the same type of collective bashing of Christians and Muslims that they claim to abhor when it was used against them in the past. Slappy’s rant is a perfect example of that kind of extreme bigoted thought.

        At this point in history its less a case of Christians and Muslims not being “sensitive” enough, but more a case of Zionist Jews in Israel (and their fellow travelers here in the US) being incredible insensitive to the fact that they are inflicting pain on non Jews simply for the reason that they are not Jewish. Jews are in power in Israel and they have proven no more moral and sensitive than the rest of the world, but they (Zionist Jews) can’t acknowledge that, so they double down on the insensitivity by castigating those who have the nerve to criticize Israel’s rampant institutional bigotry.

      • Woody Tanaka says:

        “I don’t think anyone needs permission Jewish or otherwise to follow their conscious. I also think in general Jewish feelings are less important than Palestinian rights.”

        Then I suggest that the next time you hear a Zionist talk about “sensitivity” or “new antisemitism” or conflating “anti-Israel” and “anti-Jew” or suggesting that criticism of Israel demonstrates antisemitism because of “singling out” or all of the myriad ways in which they use people proper distain for antisemitism as a shield to protect this state from criticisms of its actions agains the Paletinians, they you should take them to task. They are the problem.

        “However, your examples don’t really fit because you are considering the Jews as Israelis and thus like the other power abusers you mentioned.”

        No, I’m not. I’m saying that the Israelis are the power abusers and they attempt to paint any criticism of Israel as a bigoted attack on Jews, leading to the insanity of people asking “permission” of Jews on whether it’s okay to be critical of Israel. That’s the Orwellian evil that I’m trying to stomp on.

        “The context for Jewish permission is Jews having been historically victims in the Christian world”

        No, we’re not talking about Jews, we’re talking about the Israeli state. It is you, here, that is conflating the two. And that is the problem.

        “and therefore the correct analogy would be a white person saying he or she does not need black permission to have an opinion about say Affirmative Action.”

        Nonsense. You fail to grasp that it’s not about “having an opinion that the other person has an opinion on.” It’s about “a state acts barbarically, and the other person has a favorable opinion of that state.”

        If you want a correct analogy integrating African-Americans, you’d have to do something like imagine an alternate history where an African-American state was created in, say, Oklahoma and they were oppressing the Native Americans there. Would a white person need the “permission” of African Americans to criticize that oppression? Nope.

        “I do think especially Lutherans should speak with humility regarding Jews and rights, given their history and the ideas of their founder.”

        I think that’s a horrible position to take. No one should lower himself or censor himself because of what someone else did or someone else thought. A person who is Lutheran is not, therefore, Luther and does not bear any of the guilt for Luthers’s sins. To say, “you deserve to be criticized, the criticism is morally valid, the criticism is being leveled in good faith and with no improper animus, but I will not say it because you are a Jew and I am a Lutheran” is not only twice bigoted, but also is harmful to anyone who might have therefore benefited from the criticism.

        “There is nothing wrong with asking people to be sensitive especially when their own histories regarding others are tainted as pretty much all of ours are.”

        I disagree, unless the specific subject matter under discussion is that history. If you’re talking specifically about that history, then sensitivities are appropriate.

        I think if the person making the criticism are doing so in good faith has no obligation other than, perhaps, to be fair in the criticism (and that I’m not totally sure about, as there is benefit in hyperbole.) I think that the person receiving the criticism has an obligation to accept the criticism in good faith and inquire whether there is truth to the criticism.

        To say, “I don’t have to consider whether the policy of {insert subject here} is evil because I am {insert identifier} and that person, by his background probably just hates {repeat identifier}.” is not a valid, reasonable argument; it is an excuse not to think. And that’s true regardless of how those blacks are filled in. (It doesn’t mean you have to agree, though. You just have to consider it in good faith.)

        Any time you run into such a situation, such as, for example:

        “I don’t have to consider whether the policy of occupying Palestine is evil because I am Jewish and that person, by his background, probably just hates Jews.”

        or

        “I don’t have to consider whether the policy of waterboarding prisoners is evil because I am American and that person, by his background, probably just hates Americans.”

        You’re probably go about things wrong.

      • Keith says:

        TOKYOBK- “The context for Jewish permission is Jews having been historically victims in the Christian world….”

        Oh, lord, here we go again! You distress me, Ben. I think you are capable of doing much better, yet you cling to your Jewish myth-history and your psychological victimhood. Jews were an integral part of the Christian world, performing specialized functions, ghettoized mostly by choice, whose social position was always well above the peasants. Of course anti-Semitism existed, but so did Jewish anti-Gentile chauvinism. And don’t ever forget that it wasn’t Black slave traders who sold the Jews into slavery to work and die in the new world but the reverse. It is one thing to be a Zionist, another to be an ignoramus who limits himself to self-satisfying mythology. At the least, you should read “Jewish History, Jewish Religion” by Israel Shahak.

        Tokyobk said: “…I do think especially Lutherans should speak with humility regarding Jews and rights, given their history and the ideas of their founder.”

        Once again, intellectual integrity requires you to put this in historical perspective. I am under the impression that Martin Luther was initially somewhat philo-Semitic, however, upon learning Hebrew and reading the Talmud and how Jesus and Gentiles were depicted, he became anti-Semitic in the religious sense. So don’t go complaining about what Luther said without acknowledging what the Talmud said, Jews spitting when they passed a church etc. Also, don’t forget that Europe back then was a violent place. Many different groups experienced violence and victimization. Continuing to ignore what the majority of Gentiles experienced is intellectually dishonest. It is all relative. Finally, lumping all non-Jews together will inevitably cause a misreading of history and political economy.

  12. just says:

    I read an interesting piece this morning:

    “In his guest commentary, “Israeli Settlements and Peace,” David Rubinstein replaces documented fact with propaganda. A fellow Jew with orthodox relatives living in segregated Jewish settlements in the West Bank, until 2006 I shared Rubinstein’s beliefs. But then I did something unusual for a defender of the Israeli narrative: I decided to investigate the validity of my beliefs. My primary sources were Israeli leaders and Israeli state archives. Among my findings, which are common knowledge among the vast majority of Israeli and other historians, is that Israel has always prized territorial expansion, seizing more and more Palestinian land, over peace.

    Israel refused, beginning in 1948, to look at peace proposals from Syria, Egypt, the United States, and Yugoslavia. The PLO in 1988 offered a two-state solution and in 1993 recognized Israel’s right to exist.

    Israel had never recognized a Palestinian right to exist until 2009 when Benjamin Netanyahu was compelled to do so under American pressure, with the qualification that Netanyahu has sabotaged opportunities for peace whenever possible, while continuing to extend Israel’s presence throughout the Palestinian West Bank.

    Israel’s dismissal of the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002 and 2007 — endorsed by every Arab and Muslim nation — would have ended the conflict, normalized relations with the entire Arab world and provided security for “all the states of the region.”

    ……….

    With regard to Barak’s proposal, chief negotiator Schlomo Ben-Ami admitted that the prime minister’s idea of the concessions required of Israel “fell far short of even modest Palestinian expectations.” And the Palestinian capital Israelis disingenuously offered was not Jerusalem, as Rubinstein believes, but Abu Dis, a small, undeveloped suburb of Jerusalem that no Arab leader could ever consent to. Reports from American, Palestinian and Israeli participants at the 2000 peace talks further demonstrate the lack of seriousness in Israel’s negotiating position.

    For leaders to obstruct peace, refuse to comply with international law and fail to negotiate in good faith, they first must succeed in misleading their loyalists.

    The real conflict for any who ignore or deny documented history is not Israel versus a hostile world. The real conflict is the inability to integrate the hard-to-believe but inescapable awareness of Israel’s inhumane treatment of non-Jews with unquestioned loyalty to the Jewish state. One consideration recognizes Israel’s dark side. The other denies the dark side exists.”

    the rest is here:

    link to dailycamera.com

    • Bumblebye says:

      I read an article which appalled me – “Israel elected to leadership of UN committee on [wait for it....] “Decolonization”.”

      link to electronicintifada.net

      “Just when it appeared that the United Nations could not be more ineffective in protecting Palestinian rights and holding Israel accountable for violating them, here comes the news that Israel has been elected as vice-chair of the UN Special Commitee on Decolonization – which deals among other things with matters related to Palestinian refugees.

      According to UN minutes, the representative of Israel, the world’s last settler-colonial power, received 74 votes for the post, despite strong opposition from the Arab Group of UN member states.”

      Twilight zone.

      • just says:

        It is appalling.

        How will Israel defend itself/ the indefensible? Perhaps it is part of a plan that needs to run its full course further down the abysmal hole that they keep digging.

        Just when you think it cannot get worse, it does.

  13. Slappy says:

    “I’m not Jewish. Actually, I’m Lutheran…”

    I never would have guessed…

    And it distressed your Jewish friends because your Lutheran kith and kin were gassing them at Chelmno and Treblinka not so long ago. In other words, no, you’re not going to “address the disconnect”, what with 2,000 years of Christian Jew-hating. I say this as a Roman Catholic. We’re but 60 years on from mass gassing and you want to divest. Would a Night of the Crystals work instead? Your fellow Lutherans have some form in that regard, and you wouldn’t need permission. But so you get my point, as Lutheran, you must be especially distrusted:

    Luther’s hatred of the Jews is a sad and dishonorable part of his legacy, and it is not a fringe issue. It lay at the center of his concept of religion. He saw in the Jews a continuing moral depravity he did not see in Catholics. He did not accuse papists of the crimes that he laid at the feet of Jews.

    You might ask yourself, despite what you claim that you saw, well, did you really see what you saw? Or did you see in the Jews a continuing moral depravity that you do not see in Roman Catholics such as myself? That is the legacy of Luther, and since you are Lutheran, that’s a reasonable question to ask.

    Lastly, in one your missives that I had the good fortune to miss the first time ’round, but the incredibly bad luck to read now, you wrote:

    That young man from Bil’in couldn’t possibly desecrate my flag any more than my president did last week.

    And the young man from Bil’in was probably in the streets there cheering on 9/11. You did see that too, right? Here, in case you missed it:

    link to youtube.com

    So, yeah, keep on siding up with those who rejoiced at the deaths of your fellow citizens.

    And did you see this:

    link to youtube.com

    And, please, don’t say that “it’s because of the ‘occuption’” since a vast number of humans in the same or worse position did not teach their children to hate.

    And see this as well, and here again, note my Roman Catholicism:

    link to youtube.com

    Rome will be conquered? Oh, and for a bonus freebie, that’s what Walid meant when he wrote somewhere on this site about how the conflict has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Walid might otherwise want to read that part of the Hamas character that provides:

    The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

    And so who can blame them for building a wall. And at least no one has blown up the Sbarro pizza joint of late. And in case you missed the history, the PLO was formed in 1964, and back then, the only “settlement” was Israel itself.

    • just says:

      You have some serious issues, Slappy.

    • lysias says:

      This product of a parochial school education finds it very difficult to believe that you are a Catholic.

    • W.Jones says:

      We’re but 60 years on from mass gassing and you want to divest.

      Does one brutality mean that you cannot work to stop another by the victim against a second victim?

    • eljay says:

      >> Slappy @ June 19, 2014 at 6:41 pm

      Slappy the Zio-supremacist is one very angry clown. :-(

    • Walid says:

      I wish you would have said which conflict I was referring to when I said it had nothing to do with religion. You are ignorant of the fact that I dislike Hamas and any other fanatically religion-driven group eventhough I don’t condone the way it keeps getting punished by Israel and its friends and I respect that it was democratically elected by the majority of Palestinians for whatever reason.

      For a Catholic you’re sounding just as marginal as a Muslim takfiri.

      • Walid says:

        Slappy, I used that term twice in the last 6 months and neither had anything to do with Rome being conquered by Muslims or with the Hamas Charter.

        On April 20th on Marc Ellis’ thread about Christians of Conscience when I said flags in synagogues and churches have nothing to do with religion, and on June 3rd on the thread about the Palestinian woman that was riding on the tram that was frisked when I said the veil had nothing to do with the Muslim religion as it was a pagan custom that predated Islam.

    • Morgan Bach says:

      Slappy, I want to thank you. I realize now how prepared I have to be to defend Lutheran social justice work in Palestine/Israel. I’ll just leave you with a few links for now.

      The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America publicly condemns the anti-Semitism of Martin Luther: link to download.elca.org

      Biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, pastor, theologian, and anti-Nazi activist, considered a Lutheran hero:
      link to justus.anglican.org

      Lutheran work in Palestine/Israel:
      link to download.elca.org

      • Slappy says:

        Prepared? Here, another wall for you to inspect from both sides, in Belfast. There’s about 60 more:

        link to cain.ulst.ac.uk

        I will be waiting for the joint Lutheran and Presby missive calling them “apartheid walls”. Of course, that will never happen as no one involved has anything other than white skin. No one concerned is otherwise Jewish. So no time for Jew-hating and no time to fawn over the Third World. Is the history of the Prods in the US since I’ve been alive.

        Lastly, and the way, I’m not worried and I don’t think that anyone in Israel is either. There were about 2.8 mil Presbys in ’92. There’s about 1.8 now, so the loss of a third. Those retaining a faith usually end up with the evangelical crew, who overwhelmingly support Israel. You might ask yourself why the Presbys are going the way of the dinosaur.

        Here’s one:

        At an opening program of the IPMN-PCUSA annual conference, the Rev. Craig Hunter said “greed and injustice is a cancer at the very core of Zionism.”

        Would that bigot have said the same about Irish Republicanism? And I know the theology, as it is a replacement theology, which was the excuse for all of that 2,000 years of Jew hatred.

        And as for your being connected again, the Presbys can’t even connect with their own:

        link to pfmep.org

        Note the discussion of the replacement theology.

        And if you want to read a damning indictment, well, they don’t come any better than this:

        link to icjs.org

        But I’m not holding my breath, as I rather suspect that notions of truth are your last concern. By the way, see the claim reported re Rabbi Hartman. If the Presby study guide says that, then you’ve violated the Ten Words in a rather blatant manner, as Rabbi Hartman was simply incapable of having that thought. You might try reading this work:

        link to amazon.com

        Courtesy of the NYT, you might tell your Jew hating Presby friends:

        In recent years he had been highly critical of the growing influence of the ultra-Orthodox on public life. He described as “insane” an ultra-Orthodox boycott of a military ceremony in which women sang.

        “What is happening today with religion is more dangerous than what’s happening with the Arabs — the Arabs want to kill my body, the Jews are killing my soul,” Rabbi Hartman said in a 2011 interview with the Israeli daily Yediot Aharanot. “I want to return the Torah to the Labor Party, to the entire people of Israel. I don’t want religion to be the private property of certain people. I don’t want the length of the sidelocks to be the determining factor.”

        He also said:

        He called the followers of Rav Kook “Cookians,” announcing that they—along with the kosher-obsessed ultra-Orthodox—posed the most powerful threat to Judaism since the Enlightenment, by having reversed the process of history and then “given up on the rational capacity to build a human life. We’ve given up on reason, the greatest treasure that human beings have.”

        This site, by the way, beat you all to the slander:

        link to mondoweiss.net

        As you can see, this site too is given to gross slander from not being able to read the English language. And for the gross slander smearing others, and yes, Mr. Weiss, you are patently guilty of the same, as Donniel Hartman said:

        If the peace process has any goal, it is to create here, between the Mediterranean and the Jordan, two national entities. It is to forego any fantasy of a single binational state and to make room for two independent nations – each with its own aspirations – that covet the same land yet represent distinct legitimate national identities. The process of peace negotiations requires that each side relinquish its claims to the whole land and be willing to live with only part of the geographical space which it claims as its own. Once a territorial compromise is in place, each of these two peoples must recognize the other as a legitimate sovereign national entity; anything less fails to fulfill the essential aspiration of the peace process.

        The Israeli demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state seems therefore, at first glance, not only reasonable but also an essential part of the peace process. This demand, however, is a mistake based on a superficial understanding of the complexity of the modern State of Israel. While most Jews – but not all – clearly define Israel as a Jewish state, not every Israeli does. To ask a Muslim or Christian who is an Israeli citizen to regard himself as a citizen of a Jewish state is to expect him to declare himself a perennial outsider within his own country.

        You can read that here:

        link to richardsilverstein.com

        So, Mr. Weiss, Mr. Johnson and Mr. North. You owe both Donniel and his late father an apology. Should be added to your above linked piece. That is, if have the integrity of a gnat.

        • just says:

          What’s wrong, Slappy? Are you simply too tired to spell ‘Presbyterian’ properly.? You can take the time to spell ‘Roman Catholicism’ and ‘Republicanism’, but ‘Presbyterian’ seems to take too much energy…or something.

        • talknic says:

          @ Slappy ” Here, another wall for you to inspect from both sides, in Belfast. “

          Patrolled by a one sided armed equivalent of the IDF occupying the other? I’ll await your reply ….

          “You might ask yourself why the Presbys are going the way of the dinosaur”

          And you might ask yourself why Judaism is declining in the diaspora link to economist.com

          ” as I rather suspect that notions of truth are your last concern”

          Yet you point to no untruths. Your suspicions and accusations are worthless speculation, not fact, not evidence.

          “This site, by the way, beat you all to the slander”

          But you don’t point out any ..

          “The Israeli demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state seems therefore, at first glance, not only reasonable “

          It has no legal basis. Numerous UN Member states do not recognize each other because recognition is not mandatory. The requirement that Israel withdraw from non-Israeli territories does have a legal basis. It ain’t Israeli territory link to wp.me

          “So, Mr. Weiss, Mr. Johnson and Mr. North. You owe both Donniel and his late father an apology. Should be added to your above linked piece. That is, if have the integrity of a gnat.”

          Why? Nothing you have identified is slanderous or deserving of apology.

          • Walid says:

            ” Here, another wall for you to inspect from both sides, in Belfast. ”

            Did someone mention Irish republicanism? A small divertimento, diversion or di-something:

          • Slappy says:

            Did you bother to read the Mondoweiss piece that I linked? Of course not. Why bother doing that when you can troll. But the piece reports that the late Rabbi Hartman urged the govt to kill all Arabs. He never did any such thing. And by implication, by quoting his son as saying that the surrounding places are crappy places, then apparently the son feels the same way as well. No, he doesn’t.

            But, yes, Syria, the Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt are crappy places, which is why the whole world is not rushing to move there. On the other hand, Oz land, Kiwi land, the US, Canada, almost all of Europe are uncrappy places to live and so people from all over the rest of the world are flooding in. I know, that irritates the reflexively anti-West crowd that still spouts the propaganda of the former USSR like parrots and forgets that the former USSR is just that, former.

            Next, re walls in Belfast and some other parts of Northern Ireland, the point isn’t who is patrolling or not. The point is, you call the wall in Israel an “apartheid wall.” There are the same walls, almost 60 of them, in NI, and for the same reason. Because if they weren’t there, it would be a bloodbath. And the wall doesn’t stop people from trying to hurl things over the wall, so if you Google the thing, you will see that the homes along the walls also have things like metal grills, so molotov cocktails and rocks won’t penetrate into the house. Here’s NI:

            link to youtube.com
            link to youtube.com

            And for Walid, ask Anna Lo how things are going for her. And save me Clare, as she’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, and as an independent, so not Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, or Labour, she represents the lunatic fringe.

            Next, here’s why, since you missed the blatantly obvious, only the one side is patrolled:

            link to en.wikipedia.org

            Here’s some of the low lights:

            Suicide attack on Passover seder in Park Hotel. 31 dead
            Matza restaurant suicide bombing. 15 dead
            Tel-Aviv central bus station massacre. 23 dead
            Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing. 17 dead
            Davidka Square bus bombing. 17 dead
            Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing. 23 dead
            Maxim restaurant suicide bombing. 21 dead

            That, of course, isn’t all, just the extreme low lights, but over a mere two year period, 2002-2003.

            And you recall the whole let’s protest Mubarak thing there at Tahrir Sq? You recall the blogger who went by the name Sandmonkey? From a post on his own old Rantings of a Sandmonkey blog:

            Let’s speak of the real reason why you don’t like Coptic Christians: they have money and they take care of their own!” “That may be true, but why do you defend them anyway? You know that they hate you, right? They hate all of us. If they could kill us they would!” Reem yelled! “I am not sure that’s true Reem. But let’s put it this way, have we given them any reason to not hate us? They get treated like shit in this country!” I said. I was getting aggravated with this. “What are you talking about, treated like shit?!” Waleed, our IT guy, jumped in. “They get everything they want. You know that Mosques and Zawayas (small mosques in regular buildings) can no longer be open all day, and only allowed to be open for 20 minutes before prayer and 15 minutes afterwards? They even have 2 policemen who will stop you from going in and could arrest you. They don’t have that in churches here. They have police cars there for protection. Not a single mosque in Egypt has police cars for protection, and you claim they have it bad?” I smiled and said “I didn’t know that the government did this but, well, look at the reasoning behind it and u would get it. They naturally don’t want the mosques open all day because then some young people who can’t find jobs and have no purpose will go and sit there all day to get closer to god and listen to the Imam. That’s the best recruitment atmosphere for terrorist groups. Some of them could be the imam and fill those kids up with ideas about jihad and committing terrorist acts against this “infidel country”. That’s what happened in the 1970’s , 80’s and 90’s. You only need like 5 people to commit a terrorist act. Any Zawya can fill up at least 50. That’s 10 different terrorist cells waiting to happen, and you telling me you don’t see why they do that?” “Yeah, I guess so!” Waleed said. The rest of the group seemed to be watching us now. “Ok then, let’s address your other point. Now explain to me, why would the government protect mosques? Who would dare attack mosques in Egypt? Nobody! So why would you need police there for protection? Now let’s talk about churches, if there was no police cars protecting them, what would happen?” Waleed smiled and said “We would carry beating sticks and destroy and loot the hell out of them! Ok, I see your point!”

            So, there’s police cars protecting churches in Egypt but not mosques. Kinda for the same reason one side of the wall is patrolled. Israeli Jews were not crossing the Green Line to blow themselves up on a bus, in a pizza joint, and at the discotheque.

            And for one more from the Sandmonkey, the message that was for years there appearing on every post:

            Support the Neo-con American Right-wing Zionist Christian Imperialist Conspiracy in the Middle-east!

            Then a link reading:

            Make A Donation

            Then in ( ) below that:

            (Emergency Escape Money)

            And the Sandmonkey’s top post, by his own admission:

            1) The 7 rules of the APU

            with APU standing for the Arab Parallel Universe.

            On that note, the Arab Parallel Universe, and back to crappy, is the Arab world, for the much better part, so Rabbi Hartman’s son isn’t wrong, and you and rest of the inhabitants of Mondoweissburbia need acknowledge that. And you can hear it from Arabs themselves, so you don’t need the Jew and Roman Catholic me to make the point. Here:

            Ibrahim al-Buleihi:

            link to youtube.com (terrorism is the product of a flaw)(“In my opinion we should not describe these people as deviant. This is the product of our culture. They are the product of a culture that believes that the other does not deserve to live.”)

            link to youtube.com (Arab society is backwards and Arabs have nothing to offer others)

            link to youtube.com (more on the denial of backwardness and having nothing to offer)(“we have yet to acknowledge that we are backward’)(“If we were to send back to the prosperous (the West) everything we got from it, what would be left? Even the ‘Aqqal headband you are wearing was made in Britain. We are incapable of producing anything…..If not for their industry our oil would be worthless.”)

            Abd al-Hamid al-Ansari:

            link to youtube.com (we instill a love of death in our children; we have not succeeded in making our children love life)

            link to youtube.com (our culture is responsible for terror)

            link to youtube.com (speaks against suicide operations)

            link to youtube.com (Arab intellectuals are more oppressive than Arab governments)

            Tamer Amin:

            link to youtube.com (Arabs lack the capacity to listen, have invented the unilateral dialogue)

            Dhiyaa al-Musawi:

            link to youtube.com (Arabs are stuck in the gallows of ideology)

            link to youtube.com (the prison of history in which many Arabs and Muslims live; need to awaken from the political, social and even economic stupor)

            Adonis aka Ali Ahmad Said Asbar:

            link to youtube.com (Arab society does not understand the meaning of freedom)

            Abd al-Rahman al-Shimri:

            link to youtube.com (Allah, annihilate them; criticizes Arab societies over Danish cartoons)

            ‘Aql al-Bahili:

            link to youtube.com (The Quran wedded to political ideology has failed to achieve justice for over 1,400 years; all Islamists acknowledge that the freedom enjoyed in the west is 100x better than the freedom in Islamic states; we must adopt general principles by which society abides)

            Ahmad al-Rubai:

            link to youtube.com (Arab minds blinded by conspiracy theories, is this nightmare that has overcome the Arab mind)

            And the tour de force, from Iyad Jamal al-Din:

            link to youtube.com

            Iyad continues with:

            link to youtube.com (Arabs use Israel as a pretext for their backwardness)

            link to youtube.com (only nations living in the past produce martyrs)

            link to youtube.com (the Americans are solely responsible for the politics process in Iraq; the US brought the seed of democracy)(a bonus freebie for you, enjoy, though given your frame of mind, I know, it will be torture for you to hear)

            Now back to the Sandmonkey and the 7 Rules of the APU, and you can read the whole piece here, both downright hilarious and sad (you will have to click the stop button before the page flips to the account suspended page):

            link to egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com

            Here’s the short version of the 7 Rules of Arab Parallel Universe, the last 1/4 or so of the post:

            So, in summary and conclusion, the 7 political rules of the APU are: 1) Arabs never make mistakes, and they rarely lose wars. 2) The Zionists and the Americans are always to blame for everything that is wrong in the APU. 3) If there is any credit at all that can be contributed to Arabs in any way, they will take it. 4) Good leadership is inversely related to how US-friendly a leader is! 5) Any media that is not the official state-owned media is filled with Zionist, Jewish, American, Christian, imperialist, anti-arab influences and they LIE ALL THE TIME! 6) There is really no need for elections in the APU, because Presidents and rulers are presidents and rulers for life. 7) The only viable alternative candidate to the current leader or president is this current leader or president’s son. Hope that helped explain some of the confusing discrepancies that you may encounter from having those 2 parallel universes existing in the same reality. Mind you, those are only the political rules. There are other rules concerning economics , social traditions and norms, but those will be covered in future posts. This is the Sandmonkey, from the APU, signing off!

            Oh, and please watch the film Cry Freedom, with Denzel’s Biko. Pay particular attention to the part right after the rugby. This part:

            Biko: A lot of us are going to do die for nothing if our system turns us into a black version of theirs.

            Soga: I could accept that.

            Biko: A bent policeman is a bent policeman, Soga, he breaks the same heads for the same reasons, to exchange a black for a white one is not worth the price of even one child.

            And so what is completely absent in the discussion on this site is a critique of the Pal Arabs themselves, and not in relation to Israel and/or Zionists and/or Jews, but in relation to themselves. i.e., what the profit to them if no “occupation” and they wind up like Egypt, Iraq under Saddam, the Lebanon, etc. Not saying that any of that justifies any ill treatment by some others, but if you say that you well and truly care about these humans, then you need to care about their treatment from anybody and everybody. I’m reading on the one thread on the raid of the college about how Bibi will need to use these flags to show that Hamas is dangerous. Hamas being dangerous is not open to question. And not dangerous to Israel, Jews and/or Zionists, as we can put that aside, but Hamas is dangerous to the Palestinian Arabs themselves. And that’s how some of us know the Jew-hating for what it is, as if anyone in the world needs to prove that Hamas is an entirely malignant assortment of human beings. They are hostis humani generis, enemies of the human race.

            Oh, and Walid, you still here? Re the conflict over religion or not, remember your own posts. Not in the context of what you remember, but when you were talking about how “occupation” is over water, i.e., you said that Israel wants the West Bank not over some religious destiny thing but instead over water. I was otherwise not limiting myself to Israelis. Why I quoted the Hamas Charter, which reports, as I related, that Palestine is dedicated to Muslims (not Arabs, but Muslims) since was once obtained by conquest and by virtue therefor was forever dedicated for Muslims (good that they cleared up the conquest part, though, since it tends to belie the claim that all of them are indigenous persons, as some may be doing their own “occupying” as conquerors). And, Walid, be honest, please, you owe yourself, never mind the rest of us, that much. You know as well as I do that if Israelis were Muslims and not Jews that no one in Arab world would really care. Is some weird version of Planet of the Apes. Humans cannot kills apes, but apes can slaughter each other at will. That is the state of affairs. And if you want the relative outsider looking in perspective, if apes are killing apes at will, then what hope is there for human other me?

          • Shingo says:

            Why bother doing that when you can troll.

            Says the Zio troll who has only just joined Mondoweiss and dumps all the youtube clips and wikipedia entries he/she has been accumulating in their Youtube account.

            But, yes, Syria, the Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt are crappy places, which is why the whole world is not rushing to move there.

            Spoken like an ignorant racist bigot. No one is rushing to move to Israel either, and in fact, many or the educated and skilled are lining up to leave, which according to your logic must make Israel a crappy place. That’s particular remarkable, seeing as the reason so many are flooding into Oz, NS, the US, Canada, and Europe is for economic reasons, while Israel’s economy is allegedly booming.
            Imagine how crappy Israel must be!!

            The point is, you call the wall in Israel an “apartheid wall.” There are the same walls, almost 60 of them, in NI, and for the same reason.

            No, they are not. The apartheid wall in Israel is there to steal and annex land, to separate people from their own land and farms, as well as segregating people. The wall in NI do not do that.

            Next, here’s why, since you missed the blatantly obvious, only the one side is patrolled:

            Oh sure, that would explain why the Nazis patrolled the walls of the Warsaw Ghetto dufus.
            One side is patrolled because they have all the guns, all the money and control all the land. The wall has NOTHING to do with prevention of suicide attacks. All your hasbara links refer to incidents that took place long before Hamas called an end to suicide attacks. The attacks virtually came to an end in 2004, but of course, what you leave out are the waves of mass murder by the Israelis, as well as the ongoing land theft, home demolitions, ethnic cleansing, destruction of economy which led to the suicide attacks in the first place.
            No, in your demented, messianic mind, there can be room for only one victim even when they are the oppressor.

            Let’s speak of the real reason why you don’t like Coptic Christians: they have money and they take care of their own!”

            You’re not only trolling, your spamming. Who has even mentioned Coptic Christians? Israel has destroyed mosques all over Palestine, and it constantly attacking the Al Aqsa mosque, so how can you possibly compare them to Churches in Egypt. At least in Egypt they make an effort to defend the Christian minorities, compared to the Israeli government which has turned persecution and negation of Palestinians into a national pastime.
            Israeli Jews do not have to cross the Green Line to blow themselves up on a bus seeing as they have F16s and Apache helicopters to do it with far more devastation and effect. Do you think that given a suicide vest or an F16 a suicide bomber would opt for the vest? Again you just expose your messianic bigotry, whereby bombing an apartment block of civilians is legitimate so long as it’s done with a state of the art weapon, but suicide attacks are barbaric.

            (terrorism is the product of a flaw)

            Typical hypocritical crap from necocon MEMRI TV that ignores the elephant in the room. If a terrorism is the product of a flaw then a state founded on terrorism, not to mention one that elects two well known terrorist to the office of Prime Ministers, is therefore flawed. One of those prime ministers boasted about his terrorism and even claimed that he had introduced terrorism to the region, so how flawed must Israel be?

            (Arab society is backwards and Arabs have nothing to offer others)

            Oh you found an Arab prepared to denigrade Arab society. OK, let’s see of we can find any Jews willing to say the same thing about Israeli society. Oh looky here!!

            (we instill a love of death in our children; we have not succeeded in making our children love life)

            Where would you be without MEMRI TV?
            Who instils a love of death in their children? Naftali Bennet boasts that he has killed many Arabs. Bibbi posted ”Death to Arabs” on Facebook. Ever year in Jerusalem on Jerusalem Day, thousands of Jewish Extremists chant “death to Arabs”. Israeli soccer fans chant “Butcher the Arabs”

            (our culture is responsible for terror)

            Again we agree that Zionists is responsible for terror

            speaks against suicide operations

            While we await Israeli leaders to speak against their own acts of terrorism.

            (Arabs lack the capacity to listen, have invented the unilateral dialogue)

            Zios are masters of projection. If you want a blatant of unilateral dialogue, just consider Israel’s idea of peace talks. They insist that the only want to hold “dialogue” is not in some neutral venue with an unbiased mediator, but in a dark corner with their greatest enabler who swears undying devotion to them pretending to act as mediator. Israel’s ruling coalition is allowed to include all manner of extremist, violent nut jobs and racists supremacists who are overwhelmingly opposed to a Palestinian state, while the Palestinians have to agree to recognize to recognize Israel and denounce violence.

            (Arabs are stuck in the gallows of ideology)

            Oh really?
            New York Times: Netanyahu on ‘Messianic Crusade’
            link to israelnationalnews.com
            Messianic Religious Zionism Confronts Israeli Territorial Compromise
            link to amazon.com

            (Allah, annihilate them; criticizes Arab societies over Danish cartoons)

            The leader of Shas is well known for his pronouncem¬ents calling for the “annihilat¬ion of Arabs”.

            The King’s Torah is also illuminati¬ng:

            link to www¬.countercu¬rrents.org¬

            Israel falls 20 places in World Press Freedom Index

            Pot meet kettle again. You Zios are so tone deaf.
            link to jpost.com
            As far as democracy goes, Israel ranks only just above states like Iran and regarded as the world’
            S greatest threat to world peace.

            (only nations living in the past produce martyrs)

            That would explain why the US and Israel builds monuments to those killed in wars and revere’s them as heros.

            the Americans are solely responsible for the politics process in Iraq; the US brought the seed of democracy

            We know for a fact the US had no intention of bringing democracy to Iraq. Bush wanted in insert another puppet dictator in Iraq and was forced to accept elections when 300,000 Shiites took to the streets demanding elections.
            Is that torture for you to hear?

            You are yet another example of the anti intellectualism and delusion of Zionism.

          • talknic says:

            @ Slappy “Did you bother to read the Mondoweiss piece that I linked? Of course not”

            You link to something that has no slander, then accuse folk of not reading it, when it’s obvious by their previous answer they did. Typical behaviour of a domestic abuser. Rpt… there’s nothing slanderous in the article you stupid person.

            ” Why bother doing that when you can troll. But the piece reports that the late Rabbi Hartman urged the govt to kill all Arabs.”

            I guess you’d know. The piece does not report “that the late Rabbi Hartman urged the govt to kill all Arabs” it quotes link to washingtonpost.com Pathetic zionutter strawmen get shredded here real quick

            ” He never did any such thing”

            Correct. He didn’t use your straw words Pajero

            “Syria, the Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt are crappy places, which is why the whole world is not rushing to move there”

            The whole world is not rushing to move to Israel either, must be crappy place

            “On the other hand, Oz land, Kiwi land, the US, Canada, almost all of Europe are uncrappy places to live and so people from all over the rest of the world are flooding in”

            Refugees are, from unrest triggered by the coalition of the swilling’s adventures with GW Bush and his propaganda puking Zionist PNAC pals. However, according to UNHCR statistics as soon as people can, they return to their own countries.

            “Next, re walls in Belfast and some other parts of Northern Ireland, the point isn’t who is patrolling or not. The point is, you call the wall in Israel an “apartheid wall.” There are the same walls, almost 60 of them, in NI, and for the same reason. “

            LOL You appear too stupid to realize you’re chewing on poop. None in NI were built and run and guarded by one side occupying the other. None were built to separate people from their land, none are built on territory OUTSIDE the state, none are built thru farms and villages to help create illegal facts on the ground for an Occupying Power

            The rest of your post is long. Contains nothing of merit. Come back when the Zioncaine wears off.

          • Shingo says:

            Come back when the Zioncaine wears off.

            For some like Slapper, who are particularly vulnerable to Zioncaine addiction, it might never wear off. Much like the stories you hear from the 60s of some who took hit of LSD and never recovered.

        • Woody Tanaka says:
          If the peace process has any goal, it is to create here, between the Mediterranean and the Jordan, two national entities. It is to forego any fantasy of a single binational state and to make room for two independent nations – each with its own aspirations – that covet the same land yet represent distinct legitimate national identities. The process of peace negotiations requires that each side relinquish its claims to the whole land and be willing to live with only part of the geographical space which it claims as its own. Once a territorial compromise is in place, each of these two peoples must recognize the other as a legitimate sovereign national entity; anything less fails to fulfill the essential aspiration of the peace process.

          The Israeli demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state seems therefore, at first glance, not only reasonable but also an essential part of the peace process.

          Hartman if full of nonsense, which is why your conclusion is full of it, too. But if Hartman is right, then by all means, tell the Israelis to pull back until they only occupy half of this land and forever foreswear any interference in the Palestinians’ soverignty, in any way, on the other half or be exposed as a hypocrite.

        • eljay says:

          >> The Israeli demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state seems therefore, at first glance, not only reasonable but also an essential part of the peace process.

          “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct. No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state, and no group of people – be they Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Roma, homosexuals, women, abused children or Klingon-speaking nerds – is entitled to have a supremacist state.

          To demand that anyone recognize Israel as a supremacist “Jewish State” is not remotely reasonable.

          To demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a supremacist “Jewish State” – a move that would…
          - relegate Palestinian Israelis to a second-class citizen status, and
          - severely impact, if not completely destroy, the right of return to Israel of non-Jewish refugees from the territory comprising Israel
          …is unreasonable, unjust and immoral.

          To make such a demand an “essential part of the peace process” simply underscores just how hateful and immoral are Zio-supremacists.

    • LeaNder says:

      I say this as a Roman Catholic.

      My advise rapidly look for help. Catholicism eats the soul. Seriously. The secret force behind it also controls MEMRI, Fox, and Palwatch.

      I firmly believe in the hermaphrodite twin gods Mawoto-Lisetta, the good forces of nature and life and love. In our religion the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, or the anti-life-force par excellence. It is only interested in money and power. And thus also the source of all evil in the world.

      Thus if anyone is responsible for anything, including natural disasters, down to minor mishaps, but obviously the Holocaust too, it is always the Catholic Church or the black pope, the magical evil that that pulls the strings and controls the pope you see too.

      I hope you heed my warnings for the better of your soul. Here maybe this helps for a start: The most powerful Man in the World the Black Pope.

      The Vatican owns 60% of all Israel lands and the Land of the Temple Mount for their Third Solomon’s Temple where they want their throne. He is a part of the Arcana Arcanorum controlled by the Papal Bloodlines within the I-Mori.

      WAKE UP, and realize the evil cult you were born into. Hint: He also controls the conflict in the Muslim world.

      Apart from that, welcome. But again, seriously, seek help!

    • talknic says:

      Poor Slappy, must be a newby or in an old wrapper

      “And it distressed your Jewish friends because your Lutheran kith and kin were gassing them at Chelmno and Treblinka not so long ago”

      Simple maths tells us that 70 years ago, her Lutheran acquaintances would have been babies or children

      “We’re but 60 years on from mass gassing ..”

      70 yrs on

      “Would a Night of the Crystals work instead? Your fellow Lutherans have some form in that regard”

      Er … her fellow Lutherans would have been in diapers 76 years ago!

      “Luther’s hatred of the Jews is a sad and dishonorable part of his legacy”

      I don’t think Luther would have approved of her joining Jewish Voice for Peace and associating with Rabbis Brant Rosen and Brian Walt.

      “You might ask yourself, despite what you claim that you saw, well, did you really see what you saw?”

      You might ask yourself why you post so much hate filled drivel

      “Or did you see in the Jews a continuing moral depravity that you do not see in Roman Catholics such as myself?”

      Throwing sh*t in the hope that some sticks is gonna see you with sh*t on your hands pal. She hasn’t mentioned a continuing moral depravity in Jews. Basing your criticism of her on what YOU think is call straw. Congratulations Pajero!

      “That is the legacy of Luther, and since you are Lutheran, that’s a reasonable question to ask”

      Seeing as she has joined other Jews, its a rather mindless question to ask.

      “..the young man from Bil’in was probably in the streets there cheering on 9/11. You did see that too, right?”

      The only indication in the video that anyone was cheering because of 9/11, comes from the commentator. The video itself contains no evidence what so ever that the Palestinians were cheering 9/11.

      Your other link contains the usual pathetic uncorroborated translations one can expect from propaganda outfits such as Memri, PMW

      “that’s what Walid meant when he wrote somewhere on this site about how the conflict has nothing whatsoever to do with religion”

      Walid probably meant what Walid wrote, not what you’d like Walid to have meant.

      “Walid might otherwise want to read that part of the Hamas character that provides..”

      You might otherwise want to read, but I doubt you will, Article Thirty-One :
      “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8).

      “And so who can blame them for building a wall”

      Why didn’t they build it on Israeli soil?

      “And at least no one has blown up the Sbarro pizza joint of late”

      Yet despite the wall thousands of Palestinians illegally make it into Israel every day! link to middleeastmonitor.com

      “And in case you missed the history, the PLO was formed in 1964, and back then, the only “settlement” was Israel itself.”

      Strange… according to the Israeli Government statement to the UNSC May 22nd 1948 Israel was occupying territory “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”
      And here 12 Aug 1948 the Israeli Government claimed the occupation of Jerusalem link to mfa.gov.il

      Are you gonna tell us that by 1964 no Israelis settled in these territories Israel illegally acquired by war by 1949? link to wp.me

      I’ll bet the Israeli census figures show you’re full of ziopoop

    • RobertB says:

      @Slappy

      “And the young man from Bil’in was probably in the streets there cheering on 9/11. You did see that too, right? Here, in case you missed it:
      So, yeah, keep on siding up with those who rejoiced at the deaths of your fellow citizens.
      And did you see this:”

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Hmmm…Slappy…

      In case you missed this…And did you see this:

      The 5 Dancing Israelis/Mossad on 9/11

      link to youtube.com

      Click on link below….scroll down and click play to watch videos:

      link to whatreallyhappened.com

  14. Kris says:

    Interesting how many new (at least, they have new “names”) hasbara operators are posting on mondoweiss!

  15. xaf says:

    You are a credit to the founder of your denomination Morgan.

    • ritzl says:

      xaf- And you are a credit to passive-aggressive amoral ankle-biters everywhere. There are so many it seems.

      Morgan repudiated that accusation upthread with the added wisdom that you all teach her what she is going to be subjected to in the pursuit of justice on this issue. Her morality-resilience combo is your worst nightmare.

      Are you all so terminally dense that you are incapable of understanding that you turn people against you when you shotgun the antisemitism “j’accuse” at people who are so obviously trying very hard to follow their conscience. It makes you look completely deranged to normal people who don’t otherwise have an opinion [yet!].

      If antisemite! doesn’t work, what next? Trrrst!??

    • just says:

      Isn’t Martin Luther dead?

      (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) Why, yes he is.

      Why do Zionists and their supporters always have to reach into the way- back machine in order to justify everything that they do?

      • eljay says:

        >> Why do Zionists and their supporters always have to reach into the way- back machine in order to justify everything that they do?

        When they’re not reaching into the past, they’re looking to Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes” to justify their past and ON-GOING acts of injustice and immorality.

        Zio-supremacists: Always reaching for the bottom of the barrel and doing their utmost to be just a little bit better than the worst, rather than striving to be as good as the best.

    • libra says:

      Oh dear, it’s looks like some of Professor Ellis’s anti-Christian chickens have come home to roost at Mondoweiss.

  16. just says:

    ““A vote for divestment will cause a painful rift with the great majority of the Jewish community,” he said.

    “If we are truly partners and you disapprove this divestment overture, I look forward to sitting with your leadership in the prime minister’s office in Jerusalem,” Jacobs said. “You can choose partnership and engagement or you can choose separation and divestment.”

    “We are against settlements,” he said. “We are for a two-state solution, but we can’t fight alone. We need each other, and if you choose partnership over divestment and BDS, together we can change the world.”

    The proposed divestment resolution had been modified to explicitly distance itself from BDS, or the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement, which many in the Jewish community see as advocating for the dismantling of Israel. However, Jacobs said this was not enough, especially in light of an anti-Zionist tract published this year by a church committee.

    “The document, which is being sold through your online church store, is a vicious attack on Judaism, the Jewish people and the State of Israel,” he said. Jacobs, who is scheduled to meet next week with Netanyahu, has not yet received a response from the church leaders. ”

    link to haaretz.com

    Because talking to Netanyahu is so productive, Rabbi Rick. There’s nothing “vicious” about the document dude.

    • ritzl says:

      Wow.

      [Jacobs to PCUSA to their faces at the GA] “You can choose partnership and engagement or you can choose separation and divestment.”

      MY way or the highway… YOU, Presbys, must accommodate ME!… WE are right and unchangeable therefore YOU risk a break… WE kill (yeah, he did glom Israel and Jews when he criticized “Zionism Unsettled” as “a vicious attack on Judaism, the Jewish people, and the State of Israel.”), but YOU are bad for pointing that out…

      Who the f is this guy to say those things.

      I ask again, is the Reform movement going to invite Presby divestment advocates to its convention to warn against the dangers of not divesting and threaten a break if Reform Jews don’t divest? Not an ice cubes chance. To me that alone shows in high relief who is morally right on this issue. The Presbys are inclusive (to a fault), Zionism/ists are exclusive. If you’re right, what’s to hide from?

      I always wonder what the implicit “or else” is in those statements. Call the whole PCUSA antisemitic? How far does one’s head have to be up one’s butt to even entertain the notion for more than a nanosecond that a “sit down with Netanyahu” would be anything but a waste of time? Didn’t Jacobs just witness the last 10 months of Kerry doing just that?

      None of this “pro-Israel” advocacy makes any sense anymore, whether it’s reasonable sounding or hair-on-fire crazy talk. The guiding assumptions that have to be in place for these statements to be made must be terribly flawed.

    • Does Jacobs contend it is being “anti-Israel” to tell Israel to end the occupation?

  17. Quagmire says:

    Even the most ‘liberal’ Zionist, like JVP, still thinks people like Morgan Bach need their permission to speak out. This is, unfortunately, a universal attitude in the US among ALL the Zionists.

  18. RobertB says:

    Hmmmm….Just wondering what happened to my reply/comment to “Slappy” on this thread?

    I posted around 11:30 AM …today…6/20…!!!