Saying Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state is not anti-Semitic

Activism

As you surely know, the British Labour Party is today embroiled in a controversy over whether certain criticisms of the state of Israel can be considered anti-Semitic. The controversy is sure to come to the United States, even during this political cycle; and without wading into the statements and personalities involved, we need to point out that one aspect of the dispute is the claim that it is anti-Semitic to say– as many advocates for Palestinians do–  that Israel does not have the right to exist as a Jewish state.

The “Jewish state” language is a key element of the English debate, and of the Israel conversation globally. As Robert Mackey has written at the Intercept:

When the debate is unpacked, however, it becomes clear that what’s at stake is something much broader: whether critics of Israel, who question its government’s policies or its right to exist as a Jewish state, are engaged in a form of coded anti-Semitism.

And this is not just in the UK. The U.S.  State Department maintains just such a view as well. It has endorsed a definition of anti-Semitism that includes efforts to:

DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL [by] Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist

The State Department language has helped to shift the discourse in the U.S. For example, the California Board of Regents has also recently accepted a definition of anti-Semitism that includes anti-Zionism:

Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.

This same trend can be seen in the presidential race. Hillary Clinton has said that the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement meets this definition of anti-Semitism. She links anti-Semitism with:

all efforts to malign, isolate and undermine Israel and the Jewish people.

This is obviously a battle ground; and we have a clear position: We think it is legitimate and not anti-Semitic for critics to make such an argument. Given the principle of separation of church and state, such an argument has a long pedigree in modern political philosophy. Moreover, Israel’s history shows that creating and maintaining a “Jewish state” has entailed ethnic cleansing of Palestinians on a regular basis, including in East Jerusalem and broad portions of the West Bank to this day, in order to maintain a Jewish majority in certain areas. In practice, the Jewish State in Israel/Palestine has meant an ethnocracy where Jews are given special and exclusive rights over other citizens and non-citizens under the sovereignty of the Israeli government. This is a system that we (Horowitz and Weiss) reject for political, personal and moral reasons that are in no way connected to vilifying or discriminating against Jews, the traditional definition of anti-Semitism.

Of course, many other people oppose these definitions of anti-Semitism as well.

Palestine Legal has an excellent FAQ on the State Department definition that notes that it blurs criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. The FAQ addresses the “right to exist” idea:

Likewise, any criticism of Zionism—which questions Israel’s definition as a state that premises citizenship on race, ethnicity, and religion — is considered anti-Semitic under this redefinition, because such speech can be seen as “denying Israel the right to exist” as a “Jewish state” that privileges its Jewish citizens over others

Palestine Legal points out that blurring Jewishness and Zionism are essential tactics of Israel supporters:

[C]criticism of the Israeli state is not based on the Jewish identity of most Israeli citizens or leaders; it is based on the nation state’s historical and present day actions. Despite these important distinctions, some go to great lengths to lump Jewish people and the Israeli state together, arguing that Jews and Israel are inherently connected, and that any attack on one is an attack on the other.

In response to the possible UC policy the Stanford Students for Justice in Palestine chapter directly addressed the danger of the “right to exist” qualification and said that such a definition of anti-Semitism has chilled speakers who might stand up for Palestine:

To provide some context: recently, a bill to condemn anti-Semitism has been introduced to the Stanford Undergraduate Senate. We fully support the passing of a bill to condemn anti-Semitism; however, the proposed bill contains the U.S. State Department definition of anti-Semitism which states that “demonization, delegitimization, and double standards” against Israel are anti-Semitism. This includes saying that Israel has no “right to exist”. (see http://palestinelegalsupport.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/FAQ-onDefinition-of-Anti-Semitism-3-9-15.pdf) We have been concerned about this section of the bill as well as some other portions of the bill that also conflate anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, the bill has made some members of Stanford SJP feel intimidated about speaking out against Zionism and the existence of an exclusive Jewish state in Palestine.

And there has been some official pushback as well. Three years ago the EU’s organization for combating racism dropped a definition of anti-Semitism that included a provision aimed at the existence of Israel:

it lists the vilification of Israel or Israelis, which some scholars call “new anti-Semitism.” The definition lists “claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor” and drawing comparisons between Israel and Nazis as examples of anti-Semitism.

But those very terms are the battleground in the English case. The Labour Party is in an uproar over anti-Zionism on the eve of elections in Britain. Lest the left fall into the “gutter” of antisemitism, political writer Gaby Hinsliff in the Guardian offers what she believes is a good definition of anti-Semitism as it touches on Israel. But notice her own confusion:

Here’s a clue, for those confused about how to champion Palestinian rights or condemn an oppressive regime without overstepping the line: just treat Israel as you would any other country guilty of human rights abuses.

There’s nothing inherently antisemitic about seeking economic sanctions against Israel, supporting an oppressed minority’s right to self determination, condemning a government, or anything else you’d do if this was Burma.

But calling for its people to be swept into the sea, or forcibly transplanted somewhere else, or in any other way denying Israel’s right to exist, is crossing a line because that simply doesn’t happen to other countries no matter how oppressive their regime. No other nation state on the planet is constantly asked to prove itself morally worthy merely of being allowed to exist.

Notice the bait and switch (writes Donald Johnson, who shared the Hinsliff). “Israel’s right to exist” in this context is always understood to mean Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, which could only happen if Palestinians were forcibly expelled somewhere else.  This writer doesn’t even seem to realize the contradiction.

There is no way Palestinians should allow people like this writer to set the framework in which the issue should be discussed.

About Philip Weiss and Adam Horowitz

Other posts by .


Posted In:

141 Responses

  1. David Samel
    May 3, 2016, 12:00 pm

    It’s really quite simple. Someone who thinks that Jews should be equal citizens in any country they inhabit, but should not deprive any other people of that same equality, is an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite. There is no doubt that the overwhelming majority of anti-Zionists base their position on that fundamental principle of equality.

    Some people like to talk about Israel’s great accomplishments in building a state and a powerful military, having an outsize influence on the most powerful nation on Earth, restoring the ancient Hebrew language to modern use, inventing the cherry tomato, etc. In my view, there is no more impressive accomplishment than the PR coup of concealing the irreconcilable conflict between a Jewish State and equality, and portraying those who oppose the existence of the Jewish State as the actual enemies of equality. Brilliantly done – diabolical, morally reprehensible, but brilliant.

    • eljay
      May 3, 2016, 12:05 pm

      || David Samel @ May 3, 2016, 12:00 pm ||

      Well said.

      Israel has no right to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state of any kind.

      Israel has no right to exist as an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and (war) criminal state. No state has that right.

      Because they…
      – strongly support the “right” of Jews to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them; and
      – strongly oppose the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality (at least and especially when it comes to I-P),
      …Zio-supremacists prove time and again that they are unjust and immoral hypocrites.

      • eljay
        May 3, 2016, 12:31 pm

        And this is not just in the UK. The U.S. State Department maintains just such a view as well. It has endorsed a definition of anti-Semitism that includes efforts to:

        DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL [by] Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist …

        Jewish people should not be denied their right to be Jewish people. The right to self-determine as Jewish does not comprise a right to a state.

        Israel exists and, within its / Partition borders, it should continue to exist as a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees until such time as they democratically decide otherwise.

    • Misterioso
      May 4, 2016, 10:43 am

      It should also be emphasized that the so-called “Jewish State” came about as a result of predominantly foreign born Jews dispossessing and expelling about 800,000 indigenous Palestinian Arabs between late 1947 and the end of 1948. Well over 500 of their towns and villages were destroyed, including churches, mosques and cemeteries. Nor should it be forgotten that just prior to and during Israel’s first invasion of Egypt in 1956 (in collusion with Britain and France), the IDF drove out about 25,000 more Palestinians and during and after the war it launched on 5 June 1967, Israel expelled a further approximately 200,000 Palestinians.

    • jeff_davis
      May 6, 2016, 2:13 pm

      And you’re explication of the brilliance and effectiveness of the Zionist PR war also deserves to be applauded as a crucial step toward freeing the truth from the straitjacket of criminal propaganda and moving this nasty business — if only by baby steps — nearer to the goal of justice.

      I want to note that the “State Department” definition is the result of the Neocon domination of the US State Dept, part of the larger subversion and domination of the US executive branch by the Neoconservative agents of Israel.

      Throughout history economic power has translated into political power, and the subversion of the US Govt. as well as of various prominent US institutions — the UC system and many other Educational institutions dependent on donors for financial support — by “Jewish money” on behalf of criminal Zionism is just the latest example of the self-destructive Jewish tribal behavior.

      Some may object to my use of the terms “Jewish money” and “Jewish tribal behavior” — one can almost hear the shrieks of “anti-Semitism!” — but these terms are unquestionably accurate and while there is a rising opposition to Zionist crimes by a growing number of genuinely “righteous” Jews, especially among the younger generation, still, the majority of Jews remain either staunch supporters of Israel or ethically complacent apologists — the “Yes, but…” crowd. Under these circumstances, where an overwhelming majority of Jews embrace complicity in Zionist crimes, the term anti-Semitism ceases to be a term of condemnation, and is transformed into a legitimate indictment of Jews everywhere (a broad brush to be sure — with exceptions as with any broad brush — but a legitimate indictment). Every society recognizes the line between socially legitimate behavior — ie lawful behavior — and socially proscribed behavior — ie criminal behavior. When Jews en masse embrace criminal Zionism, then you have “a situation”….. a situation where anti-Semitism is simply a statement of that confirms and condemns criminal behavior.

      The Nazis set the modern “standard” for governmental criminality, enshrining the term anti-Nazism as the way we define social evil: anti-(fill in your evil here). Sadly, the Zionists have brought all of Judaism to the point where Anti-Zionism =anti-Nazism = (approaches regrettably) anti-Semitism. Very few people have reached the point where they are willing to go that far, but we are coming to it.

      Beat me up all you want, but I’m just the messenger. also, I’m and American and a Jew.

  2. hoya saxa
    May 3, 2016, 12:07 pm

    Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. Gaza is 99% muslim, sigh. West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..OH NO! Funny.

    • eljay
      May 3, 2016, 1:15 pm

      || hoya saxa: Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. … ||

      The world should have no supremacist states of any kind – not even “Islamic States” or “Jewish States”.

      What’s interesting is that you view one brand of injustice not as something to be condemned but as something to be used for your own brand of injustice.

      “Murderers exist, so it’s OK to rape” is not a valid defence of your own brand of injustice and immorality.

      || … West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..OH NO! … ||

      A Palestinian state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Islamic State” will be as much of an “OH NO!” as an Israeli state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • hoya saxa
        May 3, 2016, 8:24 pm

        Israeli arabs in the jewish supremist state rule in the knesset, sit on the supreme court, become doctors and lawyers, vote and own land..tell me about christians and jews in islamic regimes..Ill wait. Since you think they are all equally awful.

      • talknic
        May 4, 2016, 12:33 am

        @ hoya saxa May 3, 2016, 8:24 pm

        “Israeli arabs in the jewish supremist state rule in the knesset”

        Non-Jewish Israeli Arabs can’t ‘rule’ in the Knesset, they’re a tiny minority. Meanwhile Jewish Israeli Arabs are a part of the ruling majority

        ” .. sit on the supreme court, become doctors and lawyers, vote and own land”

        Irrelevant to the proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders of Israel and Israel’s illegal activities in territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

        “..tell me about christians and jews in islamic regimes..Ill wait”

        There’s only one , Saudi Arabia, where Christians and Jews do not sit on the supreme court, are not represented in the Government etc

      • eljay
        May 4, 2016, 7:20 am

        || hoya saxa: Israeli arabs in the jewish supremist state rule in the knesset, sit on the supreme court, become doctors and lawyers, vote and own land..tell me about christians and jews in islamic regimes … ||

        It’s always amusing when Zio-supremacists defend the “moral beacon” and “light unto the nations” state of Israel by pointing out that it’s not as bad as “Islamic regimes” (or Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes”).

        || … Since you think they are all equally awful. ||

        Except that I don’t think they’re all equally awful. I actually agree with you Zio-supremacists that Israel isn’t quite as bad as the worst.

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2016, 8:59 am

        “A Palestinian state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Islamic State” will be as much of an “OH NO!” as an Israeli state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. –

        That’s nonsense, Eljay, and you know it. There are dozens of Islamic states and an entire IGO, the OIC, that lobbies on their behalf. No one is seriously calling for their dissolution because they’re religious states. And these states are far more religiously Muslim than Israel is religiously Jewish. That’s why people question why there is so much attention on the one Jewish state.

      • eljay
        May 4, 2016, 9:18 am

        || hophmi: That’s nonsense, Eljay, and you know it. … ||

        I don’t see how it’s nonsense to condemn supremacism whether it’s Islamic or Jewish (or any other type).

        But because you and your fellow Zio-supremacists do it every day, I do see how it’s utterly hypocritical to condemn all other forms of supremacism except for Jewish supremacism.

        || … There are dozens of Islamic states … ||

        And I don’t think that’s right. Do you?

        || … No one is seriously calling for their dissolution because they’re religious states. … ||

        I don’t call for them to be dissolved any more than I call for Israel to be dissolved. But I do expect all religion-supremacist state to reform and become secular and democratic states of and for all of their citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        And I also expect all states not to engage in oppression, occupation, colonialism and other (war) crimes.

      • Mayhem
        May 4, 2016, 8:04 pm

        @eljay, you utter your meaningless platitudes about supremacist states of any kind and instead of showing a proportional attitude to the situation where you deal in some way with the dozens of much more intolerant Islamic states you constantly harp on about the ONE tiny state that is struggling against all odds to maintain its identity as a democratic Jewish state. You are a duplicitious hypocrite whose hollow utterances obviously resonate in this anti-semitic cesspit.

      • eljay
        May 4, 2016, 8:50 pm

        || Mayhem: @eljay, you utter your meaningless platitudes about supremacist states of any kind and instead of showing a proportional attitude to the situation where you deal in some way with the dozens of much more intolerant Islamic states you constantly harp on about the ONE tiny state that is struggling against all odds to maintain its identity as a democratic Jewish state. … ||

        1. This site is about I-P. Go figure that Israel – an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, belligerent, intransigent and religion-supremacist state that has been committing (war) crimes for almost 70 years – might get harped on. :-(

        2. The existence of other supremacist states is not a free pass for Israel to exist as one. Likewise, the existence of Israel is not a free pass for any other supremacist state to exist. I’ll leave the apologetics and whataboutery to you Zio-supremacists and to your hateful and immoral counterparts in intolerant Islamic states.

        3. “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct, not a democratic construct.

        || … You are a duplicitious hypocrite … ||

        I oppose all forms of supremacism. You willingly advocate, justify and defend at least one. You’re the hypocrite.

        || … whose hollow utterances obviously resonate in this anti-semitic cesspit. ||

        Glad to hear that my hollow utterances resonate with you, fellow cesspit member. :-)

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2016, 9:43 pm

        “the ONE tiny state that is struggling against all odds to maintain its identity as a democratic Jewish state.”

        What’s with the “meaningless platitudes”, “Mayhem”?

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2016, 10:32 pm

        “Glad to hear that my hollow utterances resonate with you, fellow cesspit member.”

        “Eljay” I can just see them, sitting in front of Google Analytics, scratching their heads, and saying “I don’t understand it, I keep on sending in negative, disapproving comments, but Mondo’s web stats just keep going up! We need to send in more negative comments!”

        Smart buggers, those Zionists.

      • talknic
        May 4, 2016, 10:48 pm

        This is funny

        Mayhem May 4, 2016, 8:04 pm

        “… you utter your meaningless platitudes about supremacist states of any kind and instead of showing a proportional attitude”

        Proportional would mean proportional . When will you apply your proportional criteria to Israel’s illegal activities in non-Israeli territories? Mmmmmm?

        “… the ONE tiny state that is struggling against all odds to maintain its identity as a democratic Jewish state”

        You mean the state that has never has a legally elected Government because the non-democratic Zionist imposed Provisional Israeli Government immediately instituted basic law instead of the required and promised constitution

        BTW hophmi in case it has escaped your Ziocrap addled mind, there’s nothing about democracy in Israel’s declaration of statehood. In fact it states quite clearly that Israel will be ” based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel

        Your hollow utterances obviously escape you. You’re doing a great job of showing the type of hypocritical idiots attracted to the ongoing illegal colonization of non-Israeli territories in Palestine.

        Keep up th’ good work

      • Mikhael
        May 6, 2016, 5:34 am

        talknic May 4, 2016, 12:33 am

        Non-Jewish Israeli Arabs can’t ‘rule’ in the Knesset, they’re a tiny minority. Meanwhile Jewish Israeli Arabs are a part of the ruling majority

        There are no “Jewish Israeli Arabs” in Israel. (Unless you mean the few extremely rare cases of Arabs who have converted to Judaism like these guys):

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1SKkwUHfGg

      • talknic
        May 6, 2016, 6:56 am

        @ hophmi does the Ziotwist 101 … so cute!

        “There are dozens of Islamic states and an entire IGO, the OIC, that lobbies on their behalf. No one is seriously calling for their dissolution because they’re religious states”

        The problem is not of Israel being a religious state. It’s Israel being in breach of the law, the UN Charter and even it’s own declaration of statehood and plea for recognition.

        ” … these states are far more religiously Muslim than Israel is religiously Jewish. That’s why people question why there is so much attention on the one Jewish state”

        Bullsh*t! It’s because Israel is in breach of the law, the UN Charter and even it’s own declaration of statehood and plea for recognition.

    • K Renner
      May 3, 2016, 1:48 pm

      @hasbarat:

      Always interesting that you fools try to break this nonsense out as though it makes an “argument” in the slightest.

      You whine:

      ” Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash”

      Well, that’s strictly speaking not true. People like you whine about it all the time.

      The fact that normal people “don’t bat an eyelash” is because those populations are indigenous, have lived there naturally. Those are their countries.

      Do you whine about the European states being “Christian” or otherwise majority Christian as well? Whine about populations who’ve always been there?

      You whine:

      ” but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. ”

      Because the one “Jewish state” is entirely artificial, and entirely founded on wholesale land theft and ethnic cleansing.

      It only exists because of the racist, intolerant political ideology that is Zionism– an ideology that in practise lauds ethnic cleansing and land theft as “moral” in the 20th and 21st centuries, as long as “only the Jews do it”.

      If there was a natural population of Jews, who were always there and their state by virtue of the indigenous population was a “Jewish majority” one (none of these factors apply to Israel), then people wouldn’t take issue with it.

      You whine:

      “Gaza is 99% muslim, sigh. West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..OH NO! Funny.”

      Once again, for the slow (you): Gaza’s population as it is isn’t the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing.

      Neither is the Muslim population of the Palestinian West Bank, occupied or otherwise.

      But– the state of Israel is entirely the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing. The overwhelming majority of Jews in the so-called “Jewish state” are not indigenous to the Levant; they are a foreign implant from all over the world, living off the “fruit” of their land theft and ethnic cleansing.

      Can you remotely parse what the difference is?

      • WH
        May 3, 2016, 6:09 pm

        ‘Gaza’s population as it is isn’t the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing.’

        In fact, it is: many people driven out of what is now southern Israel fled to Gaza.

      • lyn117
        May 3, 2016, 8:39 pm

        Technically speaking, the majority of Gaza’s population is the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing – that is by Zionists who expelled much of the population of southern Israel into Gaza. The same goes for Jordan – majority ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

      • JustJessetr
        May 4, 2016, 7:52 am

        “The fact that normal people “don’t bat an eyelash” is because those populations are indigenous, have lived there naturally. Those are their countries.”

        Assuming you’re referring to the many Islamic countries in the Middle East, including the ones with “Islamic” in their official names, your statement overlooks thousands of years of continuous conquest and immigration. Forcing people off the land is nothing new there, whether you want to call it colonialism or something else.

        There is lots of evidence to say that one group or another has roots in one spot of land or another. But your argument is a broad purists argument when a pure (or in your terminology, natural) people is nowhere to be found. And it presupposes that nation states with clearly defined borders have also existed for thousands of years, which is nonsense.

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2016, 9:03 am

        This is all nonsense. It’s just complete BS. You act like Christian Europe just got that way and that’s it’s all OK because the populations are “indigenous.” First of all, not everyone in Europe is where they are because they’ve always been there. Europe has had plenty of population transfers during its history.

        But second, Christian Europe is Christian Europe because it systematically persecuted indigenous non-Christians for hundreds and hundreds of years. That’s what is so distasteful here. Christian Europeans persecute Jews. They finally can’t take it anymore and look for somewhere to go. Then, from the safety of the white, homogeneous continent that continues not to deal well with its minority populations, Europeans criticize the state of the people they drove out.

      • Salam
        May 4, 2016, 10:54 am

        hoya hasbara says, “Israeli arabs in the jewish supremacist state rule in the knesset, sit on the supreme court…”. Equal for all its citizens? I don’t think so. There are currently over 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinians in Israel including, “rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures.” More here: http://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

      • hoya saxa
        May 4, 2016, 3:03 pm

        50 laws according to adalah? What an absolute joke . Mind LISTING those alleged racist laws..I know adalah gives things that were debated and never became law. And they use laws that were overturned. And they dont list the actual language of the laws. But its just GREAT that you believe the fake list of alleged laws. What a joke. For instance, they claim its racist that since MOST of the IDF is jewish and must serve mandatorily then any benefits to the IDF unfairly benefit jews more…ummm, ANY arab can join the IDF. You will have to explain how its racist that jews are force to join the IDF while arabs can volunteer and get the same benefits. Funny list..what a crock. But glad you thought you had something there.

        Quick question, if the 25% non jews are so unhappy in israel how on earth did israel rank the 11th happiest place on earth? How utterly strange…good luck explaining that one buddy. Guess they are not as miserable as you might pretend. You want to see unhappy people who are treated unfairly, enjoy the rest of hte middle east and I smile.

      • talknic
        May 4, 2016, 11:07 pm

        @ JustJessetr “Assuming you’re referring to the many Islamic countries in the Middle East, including the ones with “Islamic” in their official names, your statement overlooks thousands of years of continuous conquest and immigration. Forcing people off the land is nothing new there, whether you want to call it colonialism or something else”

        The acquisition of territory by war has been illegal since at least 1945, under the UN Charter. Israel is a UN Member in breach of International Law and the UN Charter. Unlike Israel, none of the Islamic states are illegally claiming anyone else’s territory.

        So. Did you have a point? Or are you simply Ziopooping again? Paid to spread Ziodrivel? Or maybe you’re just another vile online abuser attaching itself to the ongoing illegal acquisition of non-Israeli territory by the Jewish state just to keep your bile overflowing

        ” it presupposes that nation states with clearly defined borders have also existed for thousands of years, which is nonsense”

        It has been a requirement of statehood since at least 1933 that states have ” b ) a defined territory”, which is why Israel was obliged to state its borders in order to be recognized http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        Only real moron would believe the wholly holey Hasbara crapolla claim that Israel had no borders and yet it had been invaded. If a state has no borders how does it or anyone else determine what/who’s territories have been invaded? Fact is they couldn’t. That’s why states MUST have clearly defined boundaries

      • talknic
        May 4, 2016, 11:25 pm

        Watching morons for Israel is quite hilarious. How little they seem to realize the damage they do to their cause

        @ hoya saxa May 4, 2016, 3:03 pm

        “Mind LISTING those alleged racist laws.”

        They’re listed where it says Click to explore the Discriminatory Laws Database. You do know how to read and click on links on a page, yes? Here, let me help http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

        ” You will have to explain how its racist that jews are force to join the IDF while arabs can volunteer and get the same benefits. “

        I have to explain something irrelevant to the point? How tiresome. BTW why wouldn’t they get the same benefits you stupid person?

        “Quick question, if the 25% non jews are so unhappy in israel how on earth did israel rank the 11th happiest place on earth? “

        Another irrelevant Ziopoop

      • hoya saxa
        May 5, 2016, 11:23 am

        Oh, its irrelevant that one of you 50 laws makes no sense? I guess you make sense there…you post a fake comment about 50 racist laws and when I detail ONE of them you claim its irrelevant. That LAW that benefits IDF soldiers is in your fake list of laws, buddy. So its racist to have a law that IDF members get benefits in society (sounds like the GI bill) and since MOST of the IDF is jewish its unfair and racist..except ANY and ALL arabs in israel can join the IDF and get the same benefits..gee, guess there is no problem after all, silly illogical person.

        There are DOZENS of occupations in the world, and yes some of them are by islamic regimes….boy is talk one funny person. And I think Russia just took crimea by force..yawn..how many resolutions on that one. Yeah I thought so.

        Sure I can read talk, but since your phony list doesnt even include the language of the laws, what EXACTLY am I reading? some suggestions of debated laws that never passed? some misinterpretations of laws? Just because a law IMPACTS palestinians more doesnt make it a racist law. If america passes laws against drug dealers and it happens that MOST impacted are black and mexican, does that make it a racist law? The same way a law against a violent criminal in israel might impact a palestinian more does that make it a racist law? Silly troll. Keep posting the fake 50 laws without referencing ANY of them. How funny.

      • amigo
        May 5, 2016, 12:29 pm

        “Quick question, if the 25% non jews are so unhappy in israel how on earth did israel rank the 11th happiest place on earth? How utterly strange…..”say a hoax

        Indeed it is strange .Must be that zionist racist bigots are at their happiest breaking international laws.Stealing someone elses land.Murdering those they are oppressing and generally making a f—–g nuisance of themselves in every way they can.

        Their sick happiness may also be explained by their success in being amongst the 4 most hated nations on earth.We know how zionists just love to hated.Serves the eternal claim of victimhood.

        BBC Poll: Israel Among World’s Least Popular Nations

        The annual BBC World Service poll finds Germany most popular; only countries less popular than Israel are North Korea, Pakistan and Iran.
        read more: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/bbc-poll-israel-among-world-s-least-popular-nations-1.525890

        Btw , the above poll was taken pre the last slaughter fest in Gaza so Israel may well be the most hated .Well done , you knocked Iran off their top position.Such a deal.

      • Kay24
        May 5, 2016, 12:47 pm

        Amigo, I don’t know where these ziobaras get these lopsided polls, maybe it was conducted by their own Ministry of Misinformation. Maybe we should consider the fact that Israelis are a happy bunch, because we have evidence that their killers are supported, feted, and made into heroes, and even the killing of Palestinian babies are celebrated at weddings. Then they must also be in ecstasy, that their government keeps demolishing homes, and chasing away Palestinians by intimidated, terrorism, and assassinations, just to give these lovely people more illegal homes to live in comfort and enable the breeding of terrorists. What a jolly bunch of people.

      • amigo
        May 5, 2016, 12:48 pm

        Just because a law IMPACTS palestinians more doesnt make it a racist law ” say a hoax

        Say , has the home of the zionist murderering thug who along with 2 minors (talk about teaching hate and incitement) burned the 16 year old Palestinian to death , been demolished —yet.

        You are so full of zionist bovine excretion –it stinks all over cyber space.

        Incidentally , if you read the Adalah list correctly , you would have noticed that all if not most of those 50 discriminatory laws are stll active .That means they were enacted by the racist goi.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2016, 4:38 pm

        “And I think Russia just took crimea by force..yawn..how many resolutions on that one. “

        Gosh, that’s clever! Simply claim that whatever anybody else can accomplish by raw power and amorality, should be given (free and consequence free) to Zionists by right of religious tolerance, or self-determionation, or something!

        Look “hoya saxa”, Israel can do any goddam thing it wants to. And face the consequences for it. Sure, anything Russia can do, Israel can do. Yup.

        And of course, the Jews (remember them, “hoya”?) throughout the world will parade through the 21st Century respected and trusted by all, with the honorific “Conquerors of the dread Palestinians” added to our battle flags!

      • talknic
        May 5, 2016, 11:10 pm

        @ hoya saxa

        “Oh, its irrelevant that one of you 50 laws makes no sense?”

        It’s irrelevant to the topic “Saying Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state is not anti-Semitic”

        ” That LAW that benefits IDF soldiers is in your fake list of laws, buddy”

        Mmmm makes Ziosense. Something that’s allegedly fake actually exists

        “There are DOZENS of occupations in the world, and yes some of them are by islamic regimes…”

        Name just a few of the “DOZENS” and of those list the countries claiming and settling occupied territories as their own. Any that Israel cares to court?

        ” And I think Russia just took crimea by force..yawn..how many resolutions on that one.”

        There was a referendum, per the right to self determination, it appears a majority wished to join Russia. Similar to the right of the majority of the legitimates citizens of what was renamed the West Bank, who had a right to request to be annexed to Jordan rather than live under the laws of occupation. That’s why, unlike Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, there were no UNSC resolutions condemning Russia or Jordan

        “Just because a law IMPACTS palestinians more doesnt make it a racist law. If america passes laws against drug dealers and it happens that MOST impacted are black and mexican, does that make it a racist law?”

        Strange attempt at an analogy. The Palestinians aren’t being charged under the law, many would be however enticed to join the military forces of an Occupying Power

        3 Jun 1948 in the KnessetReport to the Provisional Government of Israel by Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Ben-Gurion 3 Jun 1948
        “The entire expanse of the State of Israel allocated to us under the terms of the UN resolution is in our hands, and we have conquered several important districts outside those boundaries“.
        and;
        “To the greatest possible extent, we will remain constantly on the offensive, which will not be confined to the borders of the Jewish State“.

        12 Aug 1948 the Provisional Israeli Government proclaimed Jerusalem Declared Israel-Occupied City- by Israeli Government Proclamation 12 Aug 1948

        Occupation can actually be dated from May 22nd 1948.
        None of these areas have ever been legally annexed to Israel.

        ” The same way a law against a violent criminal in israel might impact a palestinian more does that make it a racist law?”

        If it impacts on a violent Palestinian criminal more than it impacts on a Jewish Israeli criminal, it most certainly is a racist law.

        “Keep posting the fake 50 laws without referencing ANY of them. How funny.”

        How funny, they’re all referenced. You gave an example

      • gamal
        May 6, 2016, 7:15 am

        “If america passes laws against drug dealers and it happens that MOST impacted are black and mexican, does that make it a racist law”

        hoya that’s some top class debating you have put me on my guard

        https://youtu.be/Pp37jdduMbI

      • bryan
        May 6, 2016, 8:28 am

        ““If america passes laws against drug dealers and it happens that MOST impacted are black and mexican, does that make it a racist law”

        Perhaps, Boya, you should question your premise? Is the Mafia a black Mexican crime syndicate? Is the CIA, allegedly heavily implicated in drugs in Nicaragua, South-East Asia, Afghanistan and elsewhere (see Kerry Committee Report etc) a black Mexican front organisation? Is there no evidence that drug use (and drug-dealing) is at similar levels in the white and non-white communities within the US but that penal policy discriminates against one of these because of the persisting institution racism within American society?

      • hoya saxa
        May 6, 2016, 11:59 am

        Bring it bds failure. Not every law is racist just because it impacts races differently. I said IF…simply a hypothetical buddy. Lets assume asians get the LEAST amount of speeding tickets and blacks get the most…does that make speeding tickets racist?

        Fun times.

    • Emory Riddle
      May 3, 2016, 4:31 pm

      Israel is 75% Jewish.

      Yep…not counting those under their control in West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights.

      Israel 100 years ago was, of course, well below 5% Jewish.

      It’s what was done to increase that 5% to 75% that is the problem.

      Can you tell us about that at all?

      • yonah fredman
        May 3, 2016, 6:46 pm

        emory riddle, 100 years ago places us in 1916 and between 1914 and 1916 turkey might have kicked out Jews from palestine for reasons of citizenship in countries that were at war with turkey (including Russia where most recent immigrants had come from.) but in fact in 1914 the numbers were recorded as follows. 650,000 Muslim Arabs and 81,000 Christian Arabs and 59,000 Jews. Get out your calculator to find the precise percentage. It is about 7.5%.

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2016, 9:04 am

        I’m sorry that you’re uncomfortable with too many Jews in your neighborhood. The Jewish population went up from 5% because Jews moved to the Middle East and because other non-Jewish countries in the Middle East kicked their Jewish populations out.

      • talknic
        May 5, 2016, 11:23 pm

        @ hophmi May 4, 2016, 9:04 am

        ” The Jewish population went up from 5% because Jews moved to the Middle East and because other non-Jewish countries in the Middle East kicked their Jewish populations out.”

        Normal when countries are at war to expel or intern possible allies of one’s enemies.

        Normal also to allow their freedom and/or return, unless they’ve taken up citizenship elsewhere. Jewish folk were encouraged to become Israelis, thereby losing refugee status

        Israeli emergency law from 1948 and still current, prevents Israeli citizens and residents, Jewish and non-Jewish, from returning from Israel to the Arab States where there is no peace treaty

    • Mooser
      May 3, 2016, 7:06 pm

      “but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe”

      Yup, given our history and experience there’s nothing cringe-worthy about putting “Jewish” and “State” together.

      • Emory Riddle
        May 4, 2016, 3:28 pm

        The Jewish population went up from 5% because Jews moved to the Middle East and because other non-Jewish countries in the Middle East kicked their Jewish populations out. –

        I see. had nothing to do with Zionism and the mass immigration from of Jews from Europe, America, Russia.

        Nothing to do with the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes by the Zionists.

        As usual, it is only to do with Jewish victimhood at the hands of those nasty Arabs.

    • talknic
      May 4, 2016, 12:57 am

      hoya saxa May 3, 2016, 12:07 pm

      “Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. Gaza is 99% muslim, sigh. West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..”

      What is interesting is that your rant is irrelevant to Israel’s self proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders and Israel’s illegal activities in non-Israeli territories since 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time).

      Interesting also that unlike Israel, none of those Islamic states are acting illegally in territories outside their Internationally recognized borders. Unlike Israel, none occupy territories outside their borders. Unlike Israel, they have for the most part, except for Iraq attacking Iran, had “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; “ per the UN Charter

      Whereas Israel has attacked all its neighbours, occupies non-Israeli territories, illegally settles Israeli civilians in non-Israeli territories, is in breach of International Law, the UN Charter, relative Geneva Conventions, numerous UNSC resolutions and its own Declaration of statehood

      • hophmi
        May 4, 2016, 9:18 am

        Talknic admits that there are Islamic states, which he’s perfectly ok with, whereas he is not ok with a Jewish state. Thanks for making that clear, talknic.

      • talknic
        May 4, 2016, 11:33 am

        @ hophmi May 4, 2016, 9:18 am

        “Talknic admits that there are Islamic states”

        Who’s to deny facts? They exist under International Law and recognition

        “, which he’s perfectly ok with”

        While they adhere to the UN Charter and International law who’s not to be OK with any state?

        ” whereas he is not ok with a Jewish state”

        Quote me verbatim … thx I’ll wait … and wait and wait and wait

        Only a completely f*cked up person would be OK with any state while it’s in breach of its legal obligations to the UN, International Law and its own Declaration of statehood.

        ” Thanks for making that clear, talknic”

        Again you make false accusations, in contravention of the basic tenets of Judaism. Thanks for making your dishonesty clear

        Keep up the good work

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2016, 12:47 pm

        “Again you make false accusations, in contravention of the basic tenets of Judaism.”

        Aww, “talknic” quityerbitchin’! We hung on to those “basic tenets of Judaism” for what, a thousand or so years since they were developed, and whatthef–k did it get us? A single goddam square mile?
        The “basic tenets of Judaism” without a “Jewish State”, that’s like a box of Cracker-jacks with no prize.

    • Misterioso
      May 4, 2016, 10:44 am

      Hoyasaxa

      Sigh. Please do not insult our intelligence.

    • Misterioso
      May 4, 2016, 2:59 pm

      hoya saxa

      Regarding Arab Palestinian citizens of Israel:

      Hendrik Verwoerd, then prime minister of South Africa and the architect of South Africa’s apartheid policies, 1961: “The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years [actually for thousands of years]. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state.” (Rand Daily Mail, November 23, 1961)

      Jacobus Johannes Fouché, South African Minister of Defence during the apartheid era, compared the two states and said that Israel also practiced apartheid.
      (Gideon Shimoni ,1980, Jews and Z!onism: The South African Experience 1910-1967. Cape Town: Oxford UP. pp. 310–336. ISBN 0195701798.

      Adi Ophir, professor of philosophy, Tel Aviv University: “…the adoption of the political forms of an ethnocentric and racist nation-state in general, are turning Israel into the most dangerous place in the world for the humanity and morality of the Jewish community, for the continuity of Jewish cultures and perhaps for Jewish existence itself.” (1998 issue of “Theory and Criticism,” published in Israel)

      Ilan Pappe, professor of political science at Haifa University: “[Israel’s] political system [is] exclusionary, a pro forma democracy – going through the motions of democratic rule but essentially being akin to apartheid or Herenvolk (‘master race’) democracy.” (“Jerusalem Report,” Feb. 14/2000)

      Ronnie Kasrils, key player in the struggle against the former South African apartheid regime, minister for intelligence in the current government and a devout Jew: “The Palestinian minority in Israel has for decades been denied basic equality in health, education, housing and land possession, solely because it is not Jewish. The fact that this minority is allowed to vote hardly redresses the rampant injustice in all other basic human rights. They are excluded from the very definition of the ‘Jewish state’, and have virtually no influence on the laws, or political, social and economic policies. Hence, their similarity to the black South Africans [under apartheid].” (The Guardian, 25 May 2005)

      “Former Foreign Ministry director-general invokes South Africa comparisons. ‘Joint Israel-West Bank’ reality is an apartheid state”
      EXCERPT: “Similarities between the ‘original apartheid’ as it was practiced in South Africa and the situation in ISRAEL [my emphasis] and the West Bank today ‘scream to the heavens,’ added [Alon] Liel, who was Israel’s ambassador in Pretoria from 1992 to 1994. There can be little doubt that the suffering of Palestinians is not less intense than that of blacks during apartheid-era South Africa, he asserted.” (Times of Israel, February 21, 2013)

      Shlomo Gazit, retired IDF Major General: “[Israel’s] legal system that enforces the law in a discriminatory way on the basis of national identity, is actually maintaining an apartheid regime.” (Haaretz, July 19, 2011)

      http://www.haaretz.com/the-racist-entity-that-is-taking-over-israel-must-be-toppled-1.345929
      “The Racist Entity That Is Taking Over Israel Must Be Toppled”
      Haaretz, Feb 27, 2011 by Sefi Rachlevsky
      “…Israel has built a world where the Jews are citizens and the Arabs are not, both in the occupied territories and in Jerusalem; where a Jewish man is a citizen and his Arab neighbor is not. Most Jewish first-graders attend ultra-Orthodox and religious schools. The majority of them are educated along the lines of ‘The King’s Torah.’ A Jew is human. A non-Jew is non-human. ‘Thou shalt not kill’ does not apply to non-Jews. And this is not delivered in the form of incitement, but as a simple statement of a fact. As simple as calling a chair a chair.”

      One example of apartheid within Israel
      http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1134898.html
      Ha’aretz, Dec. 14/09: “Jewish town won’t let Arab build home on his own land ”
      Excerpt: “Aadel Suad first came to the planning and construction committee of the Misgav Local Council in 1997. Suad, an educator, was seeking a construction permit to build a home on a plot of land he owns in the community of Mitzpeh Kamon. The reply he got, from a senior official on the committee, was a memorable one. ‘Don’t waste your time,’ he reportedly told Suad. ‘We’ll keep you waiting for 30 years.’”

      “…EU broadside over plight of Israel’s Arabs”
      EXCERPT: “The confidential 27-page draft prepared by European diplomats… [shows] that Israeli Arabs suffer ‘economic disparities… unequal access to land and housing… discriminatory draft legislation and a political climate in which discriminatory rhetoric and practice go unsanctioned.'” (The Independent, Dec. 27/2011)

      In its 2015 Country Report on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, the U.S. Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor acknowledges the “institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel.” (U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2015 Israel and The Occupied Territories, http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/humanrightsreport/index.htm?year=2015&dlid=252927#wrapper)

    • rosross
      May 5, 2016, 3:27 am

      You miss the point. If Israel wants to be a backward theocracy like Saudi Arabia it can be, but it cannot call itself a democracy and it cannot do it as an apartheid State.

      Back to UN mandated borders and have your theocracy.

      Gaza is a prison, a concentration camp, in Occupied Palestine. There is no West Bank, there is only Occupied Palestine beyond UN mandated Israel.

      Actually Israel is not even 75% Jewish since most Israelis are secular, which means not religious, which means not Jewish. It is impossible to be a secular religious.

    • jeff_davis
      May 6, 2016, 2:59 pm

      Always interesting how the slow-motion genocide of the Palestinians is set aside as the reason Israel is condemned, and replaced, as this commenter does, by the notion that Israel is objected to because it is “a ***Jewish*** state”. It’s not the anti-democraticJewish exclusiveness that people object to principally. That’s little more than a quibble. You want a Jewish state, have a Jewish state. You want to be anti-democratic, have it your way. No one really cares how Jews want to live. That’s your choice.

      What people object to is theft, murder, and serial denial of these crimes, both as the founding criminal action of the criminal state, and the ongoing slow motion genocide/erasure of the Palestinian people you stole the land from. This land was not — and is not — yours. God did not give this land to you.

      And while I’m on the subject of the self-delusion and mythology that conceals the monstrous crime-in-progress that is the Zionist project, it is worth reminding you that what you took by violence can be taken back by violence, and that’s a struggle that pits 20 million Jews — ten in Israel and ten in the Diaspora — against a billion-and-a-half Muslims. The Muslims are backward….for now…. but they have a long memory and Pakistan has the first generation of nukes. Something to think about is avoiding another holocaust is a desired goal.

      • Mooser
        May 6, 2016, 10:00 pm

        pits 20 million Jews — ten in Israel and ten in the Diaspora”

        Your arithmetic is way off, “jeff davis”. I don’t think the Diaspora should count on anything more than 9,999,999 Jews. I’m to old to be pitted against a billion-and-a-half anybody. They will have to do it without me.

  3. David Doppler
    May 3, 2016, 12:21 pm

    It’s not about the Jews. It’s about what the State of Israel is doing to the Palestinian people. One can and should oppose racist, Apartheid-like oppression, wherever it occurs, without having to be endlessly distracted by how many definitions of Zionism and Anti-Semitism can dance on the head of a pin.

    • K Renner
      May 3, 2016, 12:36 pm

      Exactly. The only people who’re 100% of the time trying to make it about “the Jews” are the Israeli state and pro-Israel Jews around the world themselves.

      These are the people who say “there’s no difference between a Zionist and a Jew” and that “Israel speaks for all Jews around the world”.

      These are the people who routinely equate standing up for the rights of Palestinian and Lebanese people with “hating Jews for being Jews”.

      It’s obviously an attempt to try and turn the issue into one of extreme identity politics– as you said, it’s really about actions and abuses undertaken, not the identity of the people engaging in those things.

  4. Mooser
    May 3, 2016, 12:46 pm

    “It’s not about the Jews. It’s about what the State of Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.”

    And what does the State of Israel call those people who are “doing to” the Palestinian people? “Jews”, isn’t it? It is what they call themselves, is it not? The world-wide network of support for Zionism?
    Whether we like it or not (and I sure as hell don’t) it is about the Jews.
    (And I just got told, in no uncertain terms, that “the Torah is a land-deed” to Palestine. The Torah is not about us?)

    • David Doppler
      May 3, 2016, 4:11 pm

      So, Mooser, would you delay justice for the Palestinians until their oppressors work out all nuances of the meanings of Zionism, Judaism, and Anti-Semitism, to your and their mutual satisfaction?

      Or should the US and the international community (and those Israelis who don’t support their own government’s policies) require the oppressor to stop oppressing?

      • Mooser
        May 3, 2016, 6:16 pm

        “So, Mooser, would you delay justice for the Palestinians until their oppressors work out all nuances of the meanings of Zionism, Judaism, and Anti-Semitism, to your and their mutual satisfaction?”

        Nope! Absolutely not! I would not delay it for a second on that account.

        And yeah, it’d be nice if, instead of working out nuances, Judaism accepted its responsibility concerning Zionism.

  5. pabelmont
    May 3, 2016, 1:43 pm

    It is possible, as the BDS program shows, to define what needs to happen in Israel/Palestine without mentioning Zionism or Jews.

    Let me demonstrate.

    In every country, I demand democracy of its citizens and conformity with international law. Having boundaries would not be a bad idea, generally.

    My first concern is a matter of international law: people who have not become citizens elsewhere must be allowed to return to their own country, irrespective of its government. Israel may not exclude itself from the reach of this rule. The exiles of 1948 and 1967 must be allowed to return to territory controlled nowadays by Israel and there to be full citizens.

    My second concern is with democracy. Israel (and every country) must allow all citizens to run for office under all platforms, to be elected, and to legislate as they choose. Any (constitutional) restrictions on all this must be fully non-discriminatory. No discrimination, no censorship, no impediments must exist which would make it impossible, for instance, for the legislature of Israel to pass a law which ends discrimination in favor of Jews and replaces it with discrimination in favor of Muslims or Arabs or Martians.

    Now if lots of Palestinian exiles from 1948 return to Israel and become full citizens, they might become a majority of voters. Under current law, Jews may continue to immigrate into Israel, keeping up Jewish numbers. In 5 or 10 or 15 years, Jews may still be the majority. Or not. If Palestinians become a majority, various laws privileging Jews may be reversed. Or not. Of course. That is democratic.

    So you see that this demand is not antisemitic or even anti-Zionist. It is pro-democracy and pro-international law. Even if it went into effect, it would not necessarily make it impossible for there to be a Jewish state, and I do not oppose that. Perhaps that state would be where Israel is today. Or, of course, elsewhere: in America or in Saudi Arabia — close allies, both, of Israel’s. But ideally it should be located in a place where a lot of people will not have to be displaced to create the state. That’s been tried. Bad idea.

    • m1945
      May 3, 2016, 9:39 pm

      The exiles became exiles because they were fighting with the Jews. [..]

      • talknic
        May 3, 2016, 10:38 pm

        @ m1945

        “The exiles became exiles because they were fighting with the Jews. “

        Another interesting Ziopoop theory. The exiles, predominantly women and children, fled the violence making it impossible for them to have been fighting with the Jews

      • WH
        May 4, 2016, 3:17 am

        You should talk to some of the surviving members of the militias who carried out the expulsions and massacres; a few of them have revealed what they did to a lot of people who were really not ‘fighting with the Jews’.

      • Marnie
        May 4, 2016, 7:34 am

        The Palestinians became exiles because they were given the choice of leave or die; of course, thousands didn’t even get to choose, they were just murdered. Faced with that kind of decision “m1945”, what would you do? If you’re a “man” between the ages of 10-50, you most likely would have been executed so sorry, no choice for you. The “Jews” were playing the game of ethnic cleansing, occupation and extermination, all according to the rules formulated in plan dalet. You sound so much like “MaxxNarr”, who sounded so much like “Palikari” – a hit it and quit it kind of troll, who spouts ridiculous, very easily demolished bits of nonsense then is gone to refuel or something, only to return with more ridiculous, very easily demolished bits of flotsam and jetsam.

      • kev
        May 4, 2016, 9:52 am

        They became exiles because they feared that what happened to their fellow citizens of Deir Yassin would happen to them: Rapes, murders, and torture of civilians… old men, women, and children… by your precious Zionists. And then the looting and desecration of bodies, of course.

      • pjdude
        May 4, 2016, 1:21 pm

        well yeah most people tend to try and fight off invading armies. funny how that one works out.

  6. John Douglas
    May 3, 2016, 2:37 pm

    I the matter of what the UC Regents report concluded, I think Phil has not quoted the final approved document of March 24, 2016. Phil’s quote is:

    “Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.”

    I expect this comes from the earlier working group’s draft. The final document states something different.

    “Anti-Semitism, anti-Semitic forms of anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.”

    The latter is rather innocuous since anti-Semitic forms of anything has no place anywhere. This would explain, I think, why most news outlets emphasized that the report rejected the equation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. In effect the process pushed by the anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism people left them worse off, poetic justice for instigating a bogus battle from the beginning.

    • Mayhem
      May 4, 2016, 7:48 pm

      The report of the Regents Working Group on Principles Against Intolerance also declared:

      opposition to Zionism often is expressed in ways that are not simply statements of disagreement over politics and policy, but also assertions of prejudice and intolerance toward Jewish people and culture

      A perfect summation of the ethos of Mondoweiss.

      • eljay
        May 4, 2016, 9:06 pm

        || Mayhem: …

        opposition to Zionism often is expressed in ways that are not simply statements of disagreement over politics and policy, but also assertions of prejudice and intolerance toward Jewish people and culture

        … ||

        Zionism is Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. It’s amusing that you Zio-supremacists think you can spend 70 years – and counting – committing (war) crimes and shitting on international laws and human rights loudly and proudly in the name of the “Jewish people” and not expect blowback.

        The sad part is that your deliberately hateful and immoral actions put your fellow, non-Zionist Jews at risk. I simply can’t understand why you Zio-supremacists hate Jews so much.

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2016, 9:38 pm

        “A perfect summation of the ethos of Mondoweiss.”

        Oh, you don’t mean that, “Mayhem”! You don’t mean that at all. If you had any serious objections to Mondo, you wouldn’t be giving the website hits and UPVs all the time.

        Unless you think your words matter more than the hits.

      • Mooser
        May 6, 2016, 10:07 pm

        “opposition to Zionism often is expressed in ways that are not simply statements of disagreement over politics and policy, but also assertions of prejudice and intolerance toward Jewish people and culture”

        And so therefore the objections must be invalid? Excellent system! Provides complete immunity!
        You just keep working along those lines.

  7. Sid
    May 3, 2016, 3:18 pm

    In this debate about the anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, I think one should also consider whether Zionism itself includes some strains of anti-Semitism. Consider:
    (1) Zionists have sought to delegitimize the Jewish Diaspora.
    (2) Zionists have argued that ethnic Jews can never claim any part of Europe, America, etc. as their homeland even though they may have been domiciled there for centuries, and various non-Jewish ethnic or immigrant groups are free to adopt the U.S., France, etc., as their legitimate homeland.
    (3) Many prominent early Zionists argued that Jews in Europe were “alien parasites” who must “return” to Eretz Israel and shed their “parasitic” disposition by becoming farmers and other kinds of primary producers.
    (4) Zionists have actively sought to extinguish Yiddish and Ladino, languages that were once a very important part of Jewish culture and tradition.

    I would like to share my essay , where I have explored the ideological affinity between anti-Semitism and Zionism.

    • hophmi
      May 4, 2016, 9:24 am

      Oh please. What abject nonsense. This is the usual white supremacist nonsense, where the internal conversations of minority groups are parsed in order to justify white supremacy. Look! African-Americans call each other the N-word, so it must be OK for me too!

      • Mooser
        May 4, 2016, 11:02 pm

        “where the internal conversations of minority groups are parsed in order to justify white supremacy. Look! African-Americans call each other the N-word, so it must be OK for me too! “

        “Sid”, I apologize for “Hophmi”. He probably didn’t even look at your essay.

        I did, and I have no idea what he is going on about. Neither does he.

      • Talkback
        May 5, 2016, 7:21 am

        Sid quotes examples for antisemitism within Zionism and hophmi senses its justification.

        For more unintentional hilarity click “hophmi”.

    • Sally Parker
      May 9, 2016, 12:38 pm

      Sid, I wanted to read your article, but there is no longer a link to it on Mondoweiss.

      • Annie Robbins
        May 9, 2016, 1:08 pm

        which article sally? the essay sid linked to in his last sentence is working. is there another you’re referencing?

  8. Atlantaiconoclast
    May 3, 2016, 4:44 pm

    Exactly, just like it is not anti White to say it is wrong to have a White state.

    • MRW
      May 3, 2016, 5:22 pm

      Good analogy, imo. Ditto saying about that a Christian state.

  9. JWalters
    May 3, 2016, 6:18 pm

    This article, and many commenters here, lucidly demonstrate that the distinctions involved are actually quite simple and clear. The confusion in this debate is entirely manufactured. It was manufactured by wealthy war profiteers, using radical Jewish extremists from Eastern Europe to create a cover story for a perpetual, profitable war zone in Palestine. More about Israel’s war industry is here.
    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/because-global-supplier/

    Additional relevant historical facts are given succinctly online in “War Profiteers and the Roots of the War on Terror”.

    My two cents on the terminology –

    The common sense “right to exist” applies to a living human being, not an legal entity such as a company or country.

    The common sense “right to self determination” applies to a living human being when it does not infringe on another.

    • rosross
      May 7, 2016, 2:50 am

      Well said, but the point also needs to be made that while religions have a ‘right to exist’ as long as they maintain civilized standards, no religion which practices barbarism has a right to exist and no religion ever has any right to self-determination, a right preserved for peoples, not religions.

      If Jews had a right to self-determination then so would Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Quakers, Rastafarians etc. etc. None of them have any right to self-determination.

      Beyond which Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism.

      • DaBakr
        May 11, 2016, 8:04 pm

        @rr

        note to all israelis: people like rr get to define your identity, not you. and civilized standards? i guess rr gets to decide what they are and what they are not. head-chopping muslims? no right to exist. marriage to more then one wife? no right to exist. ritual slaughter? peta get to decide you have no right to exist in the deserts of africa. the tyranny of the new far left is as intolerant as any type of intolerance the right has been accused of.

  10. Pixel
    May 3, 2016, 7:24 pm

    Phil… Adam…

    Thank you for taking a strong, unequivocal stand on this.

  11. Annie Robbins
    May 3, 2016, 9:43 pm

    m1945. please read the comment policy. there’s no nakba denial here.

  12. talknic
    May 3, 2016, 10:43 pm

    Whether there is or is not Anti(-)semitism alleged or real, Israel is still in beach of International Law, UN Charter, Geneva Conventions, its own Declaration of statehood and its plea for and subsequent International recognition

    • talknic
      May 4, 2016, 12:16 am

      There should be an ‘r’ in there …. I’m sure you’ll work it out

    • rosross
      May 5, 2016, 1:35 am

      Absolutely, and Israel as an occupier, coloniser and apartheid state makes a mockery of democracy and its claims to be one.

  13. Dan Walsh
    May 4, 2016, 4:13 am

    Thought Experiment:
    How would Clinton, Biden, Kerry, et. al. respond if owing to the emergence of a new Zionist party/prophet/ideological trend the majority of Jewish Israelis suddenly realized that Israel was not where they were suppose to be and decided to abandon Israel and re-settle say, in Saskatchewan? Would the fact that Jewish people “de-legitimated” Israel by leaving it and saying in effect, “sorry, it was all a vast mistake”, mean that a President Clinton would have to send in troops to prevent Israelis from leaving Israel? She is on record saying that under her presidency nothing will ever stand in the way of Israel “existing” and being a majority Jewish state. How would that work?

    Or if a majority of Jewish Israelis decided to take advantage of some version of H. R. 300 – a law to “To provide for the inclusion of Israel in the visa waiver program, and for other purposes.”… Would she order a US naval blockade to prevent Jewish Israelis from leaving?

    And how would the definition of antisemitism work in those conditions? Would it be antisemitic to heartily welcome Israelis because in doing so the US and/or Canada would be “de-legitimating” Israel and subverting its right to be a Jewish State by abetting a reduction in Jewish nationals living in Israel? Or would it be antisemitic to block Israelis from leaving because then they would be being treated differently and denied their rights to freedom of movement? How would that work?

    The point of this experiment is, of course, to test the validity of any definition of antisemitism that in any way links it to any definition of anti-Zionism.

    View more than 250 posters on Aliyah/Emigration/Immigration/Transfer/Colonization/Internal displacement/Relocation here:

    http://www.palestineposterproject.org/special-collection/aliyahemigrationimmigrationtransfercolonizationinternal-displacementrelocation

    • hophmi
      May 4, 2016, 9:53 am

      Sorry, but if this ridiculous idea of yours happened, how long would it be before you’d be complaining about how the Jews “took over” Saskatchewan and ethnically cleansed the people there?

      Is it only ok when Westerners are the ones welcoming Jews?

      Your thought experiment says a lot about your biases.

      • oldgeezer
        May 4, 2016, 12:35 pm

        @hophmi

        You aren’t stupid so why pretend you are. You totally ignored the questions he raised by deflecting. You poor pathetic little victim.

      • pjdude
        May 5, 2016, 3:48 pm

        are you trying to claim jews can only exist as war criminals? how antisemitic of you

  14. Avigail Abarbanel
    May 4, 2016, 7:43 am

    Well said Phil and Adam. Greetings from Scotland.

  15. bryan
    May 4, 2016, 8:39 am

    “all efforts to malign, isolate and undermine Israel and the Jewish people”

    One of the stock responses offered to anyone at all critical of Jewish institutions (or Jewish and specifically Zionist influence within national institutions) is that they are “obsessed” with Jews. But that is nothing to the obsession with Jews that Jews sometimes demonstrate, as in the success that they have achieved in erecting this blanket condemnation as a supreme conception of racism and bigotry, completely different from other lesser forms of racism and bigotry, which often aren’t even worthy of being dignified by a label (e.g. anti-Palestinianism).

    But if it is wrong to “malign, isolate and undermine Israel and Jewish people” surely it would be equally immoral to “malign, isolate and undermine Palestine and Palestinian people” or “Iran and Iranian people” or America and American people”.

    How can we resolve the conundrum? One way would be to say that we’ll just have to agree to differ since we all have our personal loyalties, and if I malign the Palestinians I’m a passionately proud Zionist, and if you malign Jewish people you are no more than a vicious, dirty anti-Semite. Alternatively we can rebel against these blanket concepts which inevitably require and encourage generalisation and stereotyping. People are both members of collectivities, but also first and foremost individuals, some good, some bad, some stupid, some wise, some ignorant, some informed, some powerful, some weak. I will admire, cherish and support anyone (Jewish, Palestinian, Iranian, American or whatever) who seeks to live in peace and justice, asserting their legitimate rights, and respecting the equivalent rights of others, and malign, and attempt to isolate and undermine those who do not, irrespective of what labels you want to impose.

    “Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.”

    This is just utterly absurd. The biggest threat to the University of California is Anti-Semitism? Rather than other forms of racism, prejudice and bigotry which can be relegated to a vague and imprecise afterthought (“other forms of discrimination”)? How exactly is anti-Zionism a form of discrimination? Surely it would be fairer to say that Zionism is a form of discrimination given the ease with which its adherents have just managed to enforce the relegation of misogyny, homophobia, islamophobia and all the other current forms of bigotry into a category of “also-rans”?

    The working group very clearly states that its formation was the result of “concern that there has been an increase in incidents reflecting anti-Semitism”, “vandalism targeting the property of Jewish people or Judaism”, “political, intellectual and social dialogue that is anti-Semitic” and “assertions of prejudice and intolerance towards Jewish people and culture”. Once the working party was in action other concerns were expressed but are somewhat dismissively passed over (“others expressed concerns about defining and focusing on anti-Semitism alone when other forms of bias and prejudice also occur”; “Terrorist attacks by self-identified religious fundamentalists have fuelled islamophobic attacks against peaceful members of our communities”; “the Black Lives Matter movement has brought renewed focus to aspects of racial inequality that persist despite decades of struggle to overcome them”.) However the motivating influence exerted by Israel lobby groups, presumably concerned about the growing BDS movement, is acknowledged: “Fundamentally, commenters noted that historic manifestations of anti-Semitism have changed and that expressions of anti-Semitism are more coded and difficult to identify.” So its not so much that the university is being swamped by a rising tide of anti-Semitism: rather the gatekeepers are moving the goalposts and raising the bar.

    • rosross
      May 7, 2016, 3:12 am

      Since there is no Jewish people beyond religious metaphor and since Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism, the claim is ridiculous.

      If there exists a Jewish ‘people’ it is only as religious metaphor since Jews, like all other religions, comprise all races and hundreds of nationalities.

      If there were a Jewish ‘people’ then Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc. ‘peoples’ would be entitled to the same ‘rights.’

      Fortunately there is no Jewish people.

  16. kev
    May 4, 2016, 10:01 am

    Zionism is a fundamentally racist and unethical movement. The modern state of Israel was:

    1. Conceived in sin (“a Land without a People for a People without a Land”… oh, please. This is the Originial Sin of Zionism, the original ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinians living there!),
    2. Born in sin (the Nakba),
    3. And continues in sin (the Occupation).

    It doesn’t get any simpler than that. Saying Israel should not exist is simply a recognition of the fact that the entire Zionist premise is criminal and exists only because of the ethnic cleansing and slow genocide being committed against the Palestinians.

    • pabelmont
      May 5, 2016, 8:11 am

      kev: Israel’s ‘continuing in sin’ should include such things as Israel’s refusal (for 67 years) to allow the return of the exiles of 1948 (too late for those that died, but many still live, and I count their progeny) ; Israel’s expropriation not only of the land of the so-called “absentees” but also of the so-called “present absentees” (Palestinians still living inside Israel, and citizens, but whom Israel has declared “absent” during the war of 1948 from their homes); and many other pre-1967 “sins” against the Palestinians of Israel. And, of course, as you note, the “sins” of the occupation.

      • kev
        May 5, 2016, 9:54 am

        Absolutely, pabelmont. I actually consider the Occupation to be part of the ongoing Nakba, with all of the continuing (though slower) ethnic cleansing represented by expropriation, demolitions, revocations of residency rights, and refusal to abide by international law when it comes to the refugees, to be part of the planned and ongoing slow genocide being intentionally waged by Israel against the Palestinians. Israel has never been a partner for peace because they have not yet achieved everything that they intend, which is control of all of the land from the Jordan to the Mediterranean. They have just had to slow the project a little because they know that the international community will not allow them to proceed faster without a lot of pushback. Still, they can keep periodically manufacturing incidents that will allow them to “mow the lawn” and try to help their demography along by killing as many Palestinians (including civilians) as they think that they can get away with and still “plausibly” claim that the dead civilians are just unfortunate “collateral damage” and that someone else (Hamas, the PA, whoever) is to blame. This is what they did in Gaza in 2014. And, of course, they’ll keep on playing the “peace talks” game to buy time since their project has been slowed.

  17. Ossinev
    May 4, 2016, 11:34 am

    Meanwhile The UK Times most hilarious Hasbarist has finally been wheeled out from her therapy room to add her two shekels worth to the UK Labour Party anti – semitism “crisis” story Yes it is the one the only the true voice of Judaism/Zionism/Israelism/JSILism in the UK media Melanie”those Iranians are truly evil bastards ” Phillips. To be fair perhaps the medication and the couch sessions have had a marginal effect. Not once in her ranting article in yesterdays Times did she mention the evil empire. No she concentrated all her “ammunition” on the righteous defence of her home country ( no you stupid idiots Israel not Britain ). I offer a few of the scattered gems in the article:

    “No other country however despotic or tyrannical consumes or convulses the progressive mind as does democratic human rights driven Israel”

    So the the IDF medic who put a bullet in the head of the defenceless palestinian lying on the ground and the huge majority of Israelis who supported his action were “human rights driven. Interesting.

    ” Progressive Britain …… amplifies the hate in its own intellectual cultural and media echo chamber.Denying the legal and historical rights of the Israeli “settlers” to the land it demonises and dehumanises them…..Dehumanisation of the “settlers” leads inexorably to the dehumanisation of all Jews”

    The historical rights = the worlds all time bestseller in the fiction category the Bible

    “The result of this and much more like it has been that for many British Jews like me the past three decades turned into a surrealist nightmare ”

    Nightmare. That explains the therapy and the medication.

    I have to admit that when she talked about her surrealist nightmare I put the the sick bucket to one side and started to sob – her story and her experiences seemed so so sad compared with the minor disruption which those irritating Palestinians have had to put up with in the same three decades.

    Yes for Jews it really is grim up North London.

    Ms Phillips a plea. You are British only by default of birth and current passport. You do not give a toss about Britain, the British people or British traditions .Your real loyalty and allegiance come what may is completley and utterly to a foreign country. The only reason that you live here no doubt is because of your salary as a “journalist” and the opportunity to appear and spout your usual garbage on a few TV debate shows. Please ,please asap pack up your bags and go “home” to your “dreamland” Israel. Problem solved no more nightmares surreal or otherwise and you get to experience the Jews only human rights driven democracy 24/7 up close and personal. You will of course be ignored and avoided by real Jews and real journalists such as Gideon Levy and Bradley Burston but you can have lots of coffee and cake with sympathetic fellow homegrown fruitcakes. Hell you can get to wail against a wall everyday about the injustices to Jews in the foreign country you used to live in. (NB make sure that you wail at the section of the wall reserved for women)

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      May 4, 2016, 3:42 pm

      Mad Mel. Who let the dogs out?

      And just think about how a British Muslim of Pakistani descent would be treated if they moaned about their ”nightmare” in Britain and defended the human rights abuses of their ancestral homeland, demanding that everyone else do the same on pain of being smeared as an Islamophobe. Opinion would be unanimous – if you don’t like it, go and live in Pakistan. And we’d get all the patronising ‘je suis Charlie’ stuff about ‘free speech is a cornerstone of our way of life’ and again, if you can’t deal with it, grow up or go to Pakistan. But when it’s Mad Mel or Jonathan Freedland (or his dad) we have to listen to them in reverence or we’re anti-semites.

      It really is becoming quite absurd.

      And as you say, Mad Mel would never live in Israel. She’d be just another Jewish woman there, unable to play the professional victim – or at least, no more than the rest of the country.

  18. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    May 4, 2016, 11:37 am

    As someone reading and listening to the British media all the time, I can’t tell you how sick I am of this faux ”anti-semiitism crisis”. We’ve had the odious Jonathan Freedland preach from on high, and just today we had the even more odious David Cameron smear the wonderful Jeremy Corbyn as a ‘friend of terrorists”. All this because he dares to not be a shill for Israel.

    Tell me this: What, exactly, does Britain owe to Israel? Why are British politicians devoting so much time to an Asian nation with which Britain has no alliances, when there are so many pressing issues facing their own country? Why are 4 out of 5 Tory frontbenchers card carrying ”Friends of Israel” and why is this not a legitimate subject for discussion? How many “Friends of Britain” are there in the Israeli parliament? How much time do their politicians give to expressing concern for Britain and its people?

    As for the subject of this article, I would go further. Not only does Israel not have the right to exist as a Jewish state, it doesn’t have the right to exist – at all. No nation state does. States are man-made constructs which can be, and are, unmade and remade. Did Yugoslavia have the ‘right to exist’? Or the USSR? Or Czechoslovakia? And so on.

    Besides, can anyone show me, on a map, the borders of this ”Israel” we’re all supposed to ‘recognise’? I’ve looked, but I can’t find them.

    • rosross
      May 5, 2016, 12:32 am

      Israeli maps generally show borders as encompassing all of Palestine but they are delusional.

      Eretz Israel shows borders encompassing all of Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and huge areas of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iraq, and a bit of Turkey, but they are even more delusional.

      http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/greater-israel-map4.jpg

      At this point the Israeli borders, although not tested in any court of law, remain the immoral, if not illegal, UN mandate. All of the rest is Occupied Palestine, euphemistically referred to as the West Bank because Israel does not like to mention the land on which it sits, Palestine.

      • echinococcus
        May 7, 2016, 12:38 am

        Rosross:
        Re “immoral, if not illegal, UN mandate”, pls see the UN Charter and all principles regarding self-determination of colonial peoples. Of course it is so illegal that its very mother is scared.

  19. Ossinev
    May 4, 2016, 11:38 am

    Footnote – for a typically incisive review and analysis by Norman Finklestein of the “Anti-Semitism scandal” in the UK Labour Party visit:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      May 4, 2016, 2:21 pm

      I LOVE when he refers to the vile Jonathan Freedlan (who has been plumbing ever lower depths of vileness this past week) as a ‘dull creep’. Simply superb description!

  20. Mooser
    May 4, 2016, 1:13 pm

    Anything that has ever been accomplished through the raw use of power and numbers should be available to Zionism on the basis of religious tolerance!
    Along with complete immunity to the consequences, of course.
    After all, haven’t we suffered enough?

    • rosross
      May 4, 2016, 7:18 pm

      You are very droll. Love your wit! You would do well in Australia where dry, sardonic wit is the order of the day.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2016, 3:42 pm

        Takes more than brittle japes to get along in Australia. A dry, sardonic wit is no defense against Cessna-sized mosquitoes, melon-sized tarantulas and mooser-eating crocodiles. There’s no joking your way out of that.

      • rosross
        May 7, 2016, 3:16 am

        @ Mooser,

        Having spent time in North America, I can assure you, the biggest ticks and largest mozzies I have ever seen were there.

        Mozzies are more of an issue in tropical northern Australia, not so much elsewhere and ticks the same.

        The tarantulas are tiny, teensy weensy, compared to Africa, where I lived for much too long, and South America.

        Crocodiles are certainly a challenge but only in the tropical north and really, your southern ‘gators’ are more than equal.

        p.s. most of the ‘stories’ told about Ozlandier are invented by jealous Brits, but they serve good purpose because people believe them and stay away. :)

    • pabelmont
      May 5, 2016, 8:16 am

      Mooser: I think Jews may be permitted to say, “After all, haven’t I suffered enough?” (I not we).

  21. rosross
    May 4, 2016, 7:17 pm

    If there is a Jewish people it is as religious metaphor and if a Jewish religious ‘people’ exist then all religions have a right to self-determination as a ‘people.’

    Perhaps it would not be such a bad thing if all followers of religion went and lived in their own particular country and left the rest alone. Just kidding.

    But the concept of Jews being a people is nothing but propaganda and always has been. Hindus are probably racially ‘purer’ than any religion and even that is not a given, but Jews are not a race, not a tribe, not a people and comprise all races and hundreds of nationalities just as all other religions do.

    • pabelmont
      May 5, 2016, 8:31 am

      rosross: And if all religions WERE to be allowed to have their own nationhood and country (territory), would there not be several nations-and-countries of “Jews”? I see several flavors (or even schisms) of Judaism ranging from one or more flavors of orthodoxy (I know nothing of this, but one or several should cover it), reform, conservative, secular — maybe more! At least FOUR Jewish countries.

      And unnumbered “Protestant” Christian countries, Catholic, Greek orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox (and on and on) other Christian countries. And then all the major and minor religions of Asia and India. And then all the “cults”. And never forget all the ancient religions of indigenous peoples (North and South American Indigenes come to mind).

      A lot of the latter would love to have their own country from which they could exclude the unwelcome intrusions of capitalists and industrialists and tree-cutters and oil-drillers. But they are (said to be) within existing nation-states (USA contains what might be a Navaho nation-state) and those containing nations will not give up without a fight.

      Israel got away with military takeover from Palestine — not because they were a religiously-organized national people but — because they were far better armed than the Palestinians and had a warlike and acquisitive spirit. And they hold on to their country not because they are a religiously organized population but because they have powerful allies (the USA and global capitalism, apparently) and a strong army and feisty military spirit.

      Nothing like statecraft to remind us of “red in tooth and claw”.

      • rosross
        May 7, 2016, 3:18 am

        Well, we both know that Zionists are neither religious nor Jewish, but a strange, atheist break-away which is a ‘religion’ only in the sense that it is elitist.

        And Zionist Israel gives both Jews and Judaism a bad name. There are very few real Jews in UN mandated Israel, since the majority classify themselves as secular/atheist, which means non-religious, which means non-Jewish anyway.

  22. Dan Walsh
    May 4, 2016, 9:06 pm

    @ hophmi

    I had said in a previousl post that I was done with hophmi and would no longer reply to his/her posts. I spoke too soon.

    My reply:

    “Sorry, but if this ridiculous idea of yours happened, how long would it be before you’d be complaining about how the Jews “took over” Saskatchewan and ethnically cleansed the people there?”

    Ridiculous? Hmmmm…that hundreds of thousand of Jewish people would voluntarily leave the place where they are currently living and go to a new place they have never been to before to start a new life based in the vision of a Jewish prophet? Naaaa…that could never happen. You’re right, its ridiculous.

    “Is it only ok when Westerners are the ones welcoming Jews?”

    ??? Not really sure how to respond to this but I GUESS you are commenting on the fact that the two countries mentioned in my post were the USA and Canada. Was I suppose to list others? Maybe all countries? Remember, it was a “thought experiment”.

    “Your thought experiment says a lot about your biases.”

    Really? Like what? Since you don’t know me or anything about me how is it you know “a lot” about my “biases”? And might we include among my biases…antisemitism? Did you mean to insinuate antisemitism? I hope you have the courage to engage.

  23. Talkback
    May 5, 2016, 6:54 am

    Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine (or Kosovo) or its right to exist. Pure hatred towards Nonjews, I guess.

  24. silamcuz
    May 6, 2016, 5:17 am

    We in the movement for Palestinian liberation have always hold the opinion that Israel has no right to exist, not in the occupied territories, nor within its 67 borders. Palestine is the homeland of Palestinians and they don’t zero obligations to split and give away a huge part of it to a bunch of fascist invaders from Europe who hold them in absolute contempt.

    But please don’t get too smug with this realisation, because the USA also has no right to exist on Native American land.

    • rosross
      May 7, 2016, 3:21 am

      The difference with the US, also founded as a colonial venture, like most nations actually, over millenia, is that it has given full and equal rights as citizens to its indigenous people.

      Israel has refused to do that on the basis of religious bigotry.

      Let us also not forget that American Indians were also colonisers, perhaps wiping out an earlier group when they crossed the land-bridge from Russia/Asia into North America.

      And since all of us originally came from Africa, then, apart from a few Africans, if they could be identified given the colonising of Africa by Africans, over millenia, all of us are descended from colonisers.

      Needless to say, one presumes human evolution required movement which means, it required colonisation.

      It is only in the modern age, in the last century or so, that colonisation has not been necessary nor possible.

      • silamcuz
        May 10, 2016, 2:24 am

        “The difference with the US, also founded as a colonial venture, like most nations actually, over millenia, is that it has given full and equal rights as citizens to its indigenous people.”

        Full and equal rights means little if you have no political or economic power to fulfil your rights. We should be working to pay reparations, enact land reforms, and grant more political autonomy to native groups.

        “Let us also not forget that American Indians were also colonisers, perhaps wiping out an earlier group when they crossed the land-bridge from Russia/Asia into North America.”

        Citations needed.

        “And since all of us originally came from Africa, then, apart from a few Africans, if they could be identified given the colonising of Africa by Africans, over millenia, all of us are descended from colonisers.”

        Irrelevant and irresponsible to use unverifiable historical myths from millions of years ago as political argument for issues at present time.

  25. yonah fredman
    May 6, 2016, 3:21 pm

    The “they should go back where they came from” antizionists are bound to be perceived as offensive by most Jews and justifiably so. if the only upshot of the holocaust is to be able to quote leni brenner, the transfer agreement, the stern gang and the kastner train, then there is something skewed in your thinking. you pat yourself on the back and say, ‘i know i am no racist,’ and therefore my logic must be impeccable, you see that mindset over and over again in comment after comment.

    • Mooser
      May 6, 2016, 4:14 pm

      “you see that mindset over and over again in comment after comment.”

      “Yonah” I keep on telling you- the present changes the past. You want the past to go your way? Take care of the present.

      (“Yonah”, the phrase “They should go back where they came from” appears nowhere on this page except for your comment. Why is it enclosed in quotes?)

      • Mooser
        May 6, 2016, 4:29 pm

        “if the only upshot of the holocaust is to be able to quote leni brenner,”

        Okay, “Yonah” why don’t you tell us what the “upshot of the Holocaust” should be, according to you.
        Go ahead, give us the itemized bill.

      • yonah fredman
        May 6, 2016, 4:33 pm

        Quotation marks are free, so I use them at will. I don’t think anyone thought it was a quote from this page. It is not. It is a view expressed by a throaty minority of antizionists and commenters of mw. also a view expressed by a prominent labor party brit, that caused a to-do.

        it is tedious to use hyphens which might be the more exact communication of the thought. (they-should-go-back-to-where-they-came-from)

      • Mooser
        May 6, 2016, 9:29 pm

        “Quotation marks are free, so I use them at will.

        That’s right, “Yonah”! I had forgotten you are entitled to lie as much as you want. Carry on.

        I mean, it’s not like anybody notices you are simply incapable of veracity. Putting words in people’s mouths is not “more exact communication of the thought.” Since, in case you didn’t notice you made up the thought!

    • YoniFalic
      May 6, 2016, 7:11 pm

      I felt much more at home in Lvov/Lviv/Lemberg, where my grandfather lived until he was 20, than I ever did in Israel even when I was a true-believer Zionist.

      • DaBakr
        May 8, 2016, 7:05 pm

        oh yes. I felt so comfortable in my grandfather’s latvian village where he lived until 30 and had his head bashed in by a local bartender who was deputized by the new black-shirt nazi sychophants . @yf…. Such brilliant logic

    • eljay
      May 6, 2016, 7:17 pm

      || yonah fredman: … you pat yourself on the back and say, ‘i know i am no racist,’ and therefore my logic must be impeccable, you see that mindset over and over again in comment after comment. ||

      You’re right: Zio-supremacists do that all the time.

    • echinococcus
      May 6, 2016, 8:10 pm

      With or without quotemarks, Reb Fredman has innovated again!
      Now it is justifiable to be offended when invaders are told to f**k off!
      Especially if you are the invader, I suppose.

    • rosross
      May 7, 2016, 3:23 am

      No, it won’t be seen as offensive to most Jews since most Jews don’t live in UN mandated Israel or Occupied Palestine, but are contented citizens of dozens of other countries, increasingly ashamed at what Israel purports to do in their name.

      Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism and in fact gives both a very, very bad name.

  26. Mooser
    May 6, 2016, 9:49 pm

    “It is a view expressed by a throaty minority of antizionists and commenters of mw. also a view expressed by a prominent labor party brit, that caused a to-do.

    “Yonah” it must be nice when reality adjusts itself to you, instead of the other way round. It’s a triumph of the will.

  27. DaBakr
    May 8, 2016, 6:52 pm

    Maybe it isn’t anti-semitic as pw claims but when he’s an old man in a chamber with his butt and sac hanging out and no army to come to his rescue he can scratch in the wall before the euthanasia comes that he warned everybody that this is what would happen. that it was all the zionists fault. maybe he’ll go down in history as the greatest chicken little to ever have lived. and the stupid zionists never had a clue. they say jews are pretty smart, don’t they.

    • eljay
      May 9, 2016, 8:03 am

      || aBa: Maybe it isn’t anti-semitic as pw claims but when he’s an old man in a chamber with his butt and sac hanging out and no army to come to his rescue … ||

      He won’t be the only one let down by the Israeli army which, as far as I know, has yet to invade any foreign nations to successfully rescue any Jews from “chambers”.

      || … they say jews are pretty smart, don’t they. ||

      I’m sure some Jews are very smart. But Zio-supremacists, who…
      – run a small but oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, belligerent, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist state;
      – think it’s a good idea to round up all Jews into that small state where they can be annihilated with a nuke or two; and
      – routinely sh*t on international laws and human rights and the protections they afford,
      …are f*cking idiots.

      Why do Zio-supremacists hate Jews so much?!

      • DaBakr
        May 11, 2016, 8:34 pm

        right-keep telling yourself that the zionist entity army has never successfully rescued other jews from foreign lands-wether in death chambers or under gun. they are probably the most incompetent military in the whole m/e and only know how to ‘terrorize’ poor helpless palestininian children throwing rocks or lunging with knives.

        and you keep forgetting that you were the one who mae up the term ‘zoo-supremist’ . it doesn’t matter to you that is bs. it doesn’t matter that you continually lie that there are unequal laws that favor jews in israel when there are only laws that favor muslims who don’t wish to serve in the military if they find that too difficult. but any israeli citizen can apply. there are the lies about ‘jewish only’ roads. ‘jewish only housing’. lies about how many settlements are built for arab israelis in the west bank. your cause is just built on lie upon lie and you have this whole mythology about hasbara as something set-up as propaganda (which there is no modern hebrew word for) and not a defense of its policies. but keep trying. you have a lot of hangers on, sycophants and true believers that are heavily invested in the identity of the far-left wing ‘activist/warrior’ seeking justice for only those they have given the left wing stamp of approval to.

        you spin your web of lies. you spread them around your fellow true-believers and then its spit back by them and linked to as if its credible information and not bogus interpretation from the get-go. its a great system. one orwell would be proud to discredit. one which delegitimizes nearly all the legitimate complaints about the israeli policy in the i/p conflict.

      • eljay
        May 14, 2016, 3:08 pm

        || right-keep telling yourself that the zionist entity army has never successfully rescued other jews from foreign lands … ||

        Which foreign nations has Israel invaded to successfully rescue Jews from “chambers”. No need to list all of them – any three will do. Thanks.

        || … and you keep forgetting that you were the one who mae up the term ‘zoo-supremist’ . … ||

        Nope, I never made up the term “zoo-supremist”. I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean.

        || … you continually lie that there are unequal laws that favor jews in israel … ||

        I don’t lie. The so-called “Law of ‘Return'” is just one example of a law that favours Jewish Israelis in the “Jewish State” of Israel – and also non-Israeli Jews – over non-Jewish Israelis.

        The rest of your rant makes me think you’ve been drinking heavily. Have a nice nap. :-)

  28. Mooser
    May 8, 2016, 10:15 pm

    ” they say jews are pretty smart, don’t they.”

    And you are doing a great job of eliminating any vestiges of the stereotype of Jewish intelligence, “Dabakr”!

    • DaBakr
      May 14, 2016, 12:31 am

      @m

      i was referring to your idol: pw.

      • Mooser
        May 14, 2016, 12:37 pm

        “i was referring to your idol: pw.”

        Yes, and although it is an odd juxtaposition, I sometimes think of him as the Jewish Moses.

        “Who’s the journalist who won’t cop out,
        When there’s settlers all about?
        Phil Weiss!
        Your damn right!

        Well, I hear this cat Phil is a baad mutha-
        Shut your mouth!
        But I’m talking about Phil!
        Then we can dig it!

        He’s complicated man,
        And no one understands him but his woman,
        Phil Weiss!

      • Mooser
        May 14, 2016, 12:50 pm

        “palestininian children throwing rocks or lunging with knives”

        Well, at least my idol Phil Weiss isn’t scared of un-armed children.

      • just
        May 14, 2016, 1:44 pm

        omg, Mooser!!!

        (now that’s gonna be running through my head all day)

      • gamal
        May 14, 2016, 5:31 pm

        “idol Phil Weiss isn’t scared of u-armed children.”

        Weiss fears nothing we call him dances with neo-cons he will lead the tribe.

        “isn’t scared of u(n)-armed children.”

        honestly that made me cry Mooser, it felt epileptic, Weiss in his taciturn superness might not realize it but thats a perfect brief panegyric, but lets stop before the Weiss wife feels the need to “ground” him.

      • Mooser
        May 14, 2016, 8:34 pm

        I just got home from picking up an A-105.

        I don’t ever want to do that again, I am getting too old to move Hammond organs.

      • talknic
        May 14, 2016, 11:00 pm

        @ Mooser May 14, 2016, 8:34 pm

        “I just got home from picking up an A-105 “

        Far too heavy for picking up. Get a trolley

      • Mooser
        May 15, 2016, 12:45 pm

        ” Get a trolley”

        There’s a special “dollie” “Roll-or-Carry” which straps to the organ, which weighs about 375 lbs. The dolly has casters and two handles on each end, manned by two people.

        Up the ramp into my truck, over lawns or gravel, and up and down stairs is hard work.

  29. Ossinev
    May 14, 2016, 4:54 pm

    Meanwhile back in the dear old UK with its rampant anti -Semitism, having picked over the the last morsel in the Ken Livingstone “scandal” and virtually knawed into the bone before dropping it , the Zionist Israeli firsters have found an exciting attention grabbing new titbit to re-energise their rampantism campaign and keep the focus on the ever present threat of a second holocaust in North London:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/13/tyson-fury-banned-antisemitic-comments-video
    Yes it`s Britain`s recently crowned world heavyweight Tyson Fury, a towering intellect and opinion former in world sport , who has been ramping around in a blatantly anti – Semitic way and the whole world not just Golders Greeners should take notice as this could be the start of the SH etc etc yawn yawn.
    A body which I had never heard of until now ( these Israel First organisations are prolific when it comes to procreation) have Furiously condemned recent comments by the boxer:
    The Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA) is calling for the heavyweight champion to be barred from the sport after his latest “offensive and racist” remarks.

    “Spokesman Jonathan Sacerdoti said: “There should be no place for antisemitism in sport. He should be barred from boxing and referred to the British Boxing Board of Control.”

    To be fair to Mr Sacerdoti ( Italian ? – certainly not Welsh extraction) he had the good sense not to threaten to go round and punch Tyson`s lights out or challenge him to fifteen rounds.

    No doubt being an honorable and principled Zionist he has been or will be calling for Beitar Jerusalem FC to be barred from football in his beloved non UK homeland until they sort out their anti – Arabism.
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/no-arab-players-need-apply-israeli-football-team-coach-says-379844877

    I`m not holding my breath on this one

Leave a Reply