Gaza 2 years on: These children are now gone forever and an empty space remains

Israel/Palestine
on 43 Comments

The London Visual Activist Collective (LVAC) created “Empty Spaces”, remembering all of the 500 children that were killed by Israel during the 2014 massacre. This is their press release of the event:

In the summer of 2014 Israel launched a vicious and brutal assault on the Gaza Strip killing over 2250 people.

Over 550 children were killed during the attack.

Today members from the London Visual Activist Collective (LVAC) met outside Downing Street to remember the children that are no longer with us. Children that, if it were not for Israel’s blatant disregard for civilian life, would still be with us today.

#Gaza2YearsOn

Empty Spaces — London Visual Activist Collective meet outside Downing Street, August 28,2016

They would still be riding their bikes and mothering their dolls.
They would still be sleeping in their beds and in their fathers arms.
They would still be answering back in the cheeky way that kids do.
They would still be playing in the school yard, Football, Hopscotch, Hoopla, Tag.

But they don’t do any of that anymore because Israel removed them from the world.

All that remains now are empty spaces.

Empty beds, empty fathers arms, empty school desks, empty seats in class, empty souls of of the parents, empty hearts of the school friends left behind.

These children are now gone forever and an empty space remains.

The parents and siblings are still there, having to endure each waking moment in grief.

The pain does not go away once the bombs stop falling and because the news cameras have stopped rolling.

So today we showed a unique paper doll chain. Measuring over 160 metres in length and made by people from the UK, containing over 550+ cut outs of kids, it signifies the empty spaces left in the world because those children were killed.

We also wish to convey to the people of Gaza and Palestine in general, that we have not forgotten about them.

All around the world people are standing up to for Palestine and we always will.

Empty Spaces by London Visual Activist Collective #Gaza2YearsOn

Empty Spaces by London Visual Activist Collective #Gaza2YearsOn

Thanks to @CockneyActivist

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43 Responses

  1. eljay
    August 29, 2016, 10:21 am

    The children are gone but the (war) criminals and their (war) crimes live on.

    And the enablers raise a glass in toast:
    – Clinton: We came, we saw, they died.
    – Albright: The price was worth it.

  2. Kay24
    August 29, 2016, 4:01 pm

    It is so sad to think that these innocent children were killed for no valid reason, by a very vicious occupier, who always justifies these killing with bull shet excuses. Whenever a Israeli kid is killed the wails and howls are louder, and emphasis is on just how precious these lives are. The arrogance of the Israelis is so obvious, when they keep ignoring the pleas by the world to avoid civilian casualties, the totally false statements by Israeli leaders stating just how careful their killers in uniforms are when sending those bombs, and finally the proof of just “careful” they were when you look at the number of children and even families who had to die for Israel’s master plan to get rid of all Palestinian Arabs from their own territories..

    • DaBakr
      August 29, 2016, 5:17 pm

      maybe the vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east has made it more difficult to feel specifically concerned excpt for only those who are singularly devoted to the palestinian cause rather then the absence left by all children killed by conflict. i could be wrong but i’m not the only one: just saying…

      but we’ve heard it before: end the i/p conflict, destroy the zionist entity and the greater middle east will become a paradise for children, women and minorities as well.

      • Mr.T
        August 29, 2016, 5:37 pm

        “maybe the vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east has made it more difficult to feel specifically concerned excpt for only those who are singularly devoted to the palestinian cause rather then the absence left by all children killed by conflict.”

        And the lack of concern (manufactured by the Israelis and their goons and agents in the West) – for the Palestinian children victimized by the Israelis played its part in making killing of those other children more likely.

        “but we’ve heard it before: end the i/p conflict, destroy the zionist entity and the greater middle east will become a paradise for children, women and minorities as well.”

        A relative paradise for the Palestinian children you would rather trample underfoot in the drive to create the Jewish State.

      • John O
        August 29, 2016, 5:42 pm

        You never learn, do you, DaBakr? Saying, in effect, that Israel has killed fewer children than Assad, or Pol Pot, or [enter your evil empire of choice here] is no excuse.

      • eljay
        August 29, 2016, 6:15 pm

        || DaBakr: … maybe the vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east has made it more difficult to feel specifically concerned … ||

        So…as long as there are “vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east” than there are Jewish Israeli kids being killed in Israel, you will find it “more difficult to feel specifically concerned” about their deaths. Interesting.

      • Kay24
        August 29, 2016, 7:16 pm

        “but we’ve heard it before: end the i/p conflict, destroy the zionist entity and the greater middle east will become a paradise for children, women and minorities as well” DB

        No one has ever said that the zionist entity must be destroyed here. What drama from you.
        The I/P conflict MUST be ended, not because anyone expects the ME will become a paradise for anyone, but because it is inhumane to keep people occupied, have their lands stolen, collectively punished, and the territories bombed to the stone age, by an occupier that is acting against international laws, and condemned by the rest of the world. Enough with the excuses that we have heard for decades. Giving the Palestinians their long overdue freedom is the least the zionists can do to make things right. If they continue this occupation, and keep breaking international laws, the zionist entity will be destroying themselves – they do not need anyone else to do that, since they are doing a fine job of it themselves.

      • oldgeezer
        August 29, 2016, 7:20 pm

        Dabalr is a man with no heart. No morals
        . No conscience.

        Some people care about all people but he only cares for his tribe. The children his tribe murder are of no consequence or concern.

        I am sure you are right bakr and you are not alone. That there are many evil and immoral zionists who fully agree with you. I would like to think not all zionists are so heartless and barbaric but some days you have to wonder.

      • talknic
        August 29, 2016, 8:16 pm

        @ DaBakr August 29, 2016, 5:17 pm

        ” we’ve heard it before: end the i/p conflict, destroy the zionist entity and the greater middle east will become a paradise for children, women and minorities as well”

        Heard it where?

      • echinococcus
        August 29, 2016, 8:35 pm

        Old Geezer,

        I would like to think not all zionists are so heartless and barbaric but some days you have to wonder.

        What you womder about is exactly what I wanted to ask you: is there any data to support your relative optimism?

      • echinococcus
        August 29, 2016, 8:40 pm

        Kay,

        Talk for yourself, please.
        Simple logic indicates that there will be not only no justice but even no change in the racial supremacist regime without the destruction of the Zionist entity. Any Zionist entity is necessarily a champion of racial supremacy, manifested as apartheid and genocide.

        And, pretty please, everybody stop calling it “the I/P conflict” as if all of you were describing some chess game, like unwitting Zionist propaganda parrots. Refer to what we just discussed with Avigail. Words are important. There is no “conflict” but **one-sided** invasion, theft and genocide.

      • talknic
        August 29, 2016, 9:52 pm

        @ DaBakr August 29, 2016, 5:17 pm

        “maybe the vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east “

        Yessireeee. Widely reported in the MSM already.

        Lemme see If I get your drift

        … if MW also covered what’s already widely known, Israel would:

        end the Occupation?
        withdraw its military and citizens to it’s self proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders?
        suddenly pay compensation for 68 years of belligerence?
        suddenly allow its non-Jewish Israeli refugees RoR!

        Is that what you’re trying to say?

      • Marnie
        August 30, 2016, 5:59 am

        “but we’ve heard it before: end the i/p conflict, destroy the zionist entity and the greater middle east will become a paradise for children, women and minorities as well. ”

        I don’t think you’ve heard anything Dabakr as that requires the ability to listen and understand what is being said. What has been said time and time again is end the occupation of Palestine and get out of their land.

        Actually, if your definition of paradise is not being shot dead or maimed for life, having your house blown up after the perfunctory robbery; kidnapping, theft of land, jail without charge, etc., etc., etc….then the dissolution, destruction, dismantling, dismemberment, iow, THE END of the zionist enterprise is the only way. Most of the conflict in this part of the world is due to the zionist enterprise and all of its enablers.

    • Kay24
      August 29, 2016, 10:41 pm

      Echinococcus, take a nice long breath. I have never called it the I/P conflict, but this time I did to respond to DB, who must love to see this discussion move away from what he/she said.
      I am no fan of the zionists at all, but to me they must end the occupation first above all things.
      As I implied they are doing a fine job of destroying themselves.

      By the way, I am talking for myself, and not on behalf of anyone else.

      • Mooser
        August 30, 2016, 2:10 pm

        “I am no fan of the zionists at all, but to me they must end the occupation first above all things.”

        That has got to be Job No. 1. It’d be a damned fine start on the rest.

      • echinococcus
        August 30, 2016, 3:49 pm

        Fine. This was just about your “no one has said…”

  3. Mayhem
    August 30, 2016, 1:36 am

    According to a PressTV report Saeb Erekat has claimed that the number of children killed was 487, not 550.
    How many of this lesser number were killed by Hamas militants misdirecting their fire?
    How many were being used as human shields?
    Israel went to unprecedented lengths to minimize civilian casualties but war is war.
    Hamas had been firing thousands of rockets at Israel for years; I don’t read one jot of criticism here about Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation and their primary responsibility in this whole affair.

    • talknic
      August 30, 2016, 11:00 am

      @ Mayhem

      “Israel went to unprecedented lengths to minimize civilian casualties but war is war”

      Bullsh*t! Israel, the Occupying Power had all Gaza’s borders closed, including those with Egypt.

      Illegal under Geneva Convention 1V…Section II..Occupied territories..Art49…The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians could not even flee into the sea, because Israel controls the Palestinian territorial waters.

      “Hamas had been firing thousands of rockets at Israel for years”

      The IDF Memorial site statistics show us that there have been more attacks on Israeli military and injuries and deaths of Israeli military than there have been on Israeli civilians. The number of Israeli civilians injured and/or killed is far far below the expected collateral of war.

      Furthermore under the Laws of War, Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.
      Q1: Where could the innocent civilians of Gaza have gone, when all means of escape were closed?
      Q2: Of what use were the weapons available to the Palestinians as defense against an Israeli ship, miles out to sea, firing artillery shells into the territory or against a missile, fired from a fighter plane?

      • Mayhem
        August 30, 2016, 7:30 pm

        Q1. There were many parts of Gaza that were not under attack by Israeli forces during Operation Protective Edge
        Q2. Obviously Hamas’s military suppliers were and are still having problems smuggling weapons through their tunnel network; that’s doesn’t stop them wanting to kill as many Israelis as possible. Their intent is clear and if Israel loosened the security controls over Gaza Hamas would be quick to take advantage of it.

      • talknic
        August 30, 2016, 11:07 pm

        @ Mayhem

        1) Which parts of Gaza were immune from the IDF, the entire Gaza border was closed by the Occupying Power?

        2) You’ve answered that the Palestinians had no weapons capable of defending Gaza against Israeli warships, war planes, artillery and missiles

        The best you can do is an unsubstantiated Memri propaganda translation

    • Mr.T
      August 30, 2016, 11:13 am

      “Hamas, … and their primary responsibility in this whole affair.”

      Well, this conflict began when a bunch of European Jews back in the turn of the 20th Century conspired together to invade and steal the land that belonged to another people and to inflict upon them an Apartheid regime, a horror that continues to this day. So if you want to talk “primary responsibility”, there it is.

      • Mayhem
        August 30, 2016, 7:20 pm

        Mr.T please post details of your campaign to request all colonial powers who settled somewhere in the third world during the last few hundred year to withdraw and go back to where they came from. But I suspect that with typical anti-Semitic aplomb that it’s only the Jews you are concerned about.

      • talknic
        August 31, 2016, 12:06 am

        @ Mayhem

        “… please post details of your campaign to request all colonial powers who settled somewhere in the third world during the last few hundred year to withdraw and go back to where they came from”

        Duh?

        Nazi Germany from France/Poland/etc

        Indonesia from East Timor

        Iraq from Kuwait

        Egypt from non-Egyptian territories in Palestine (under the Egypt/Israel Peace Treaty)

        Israel from Egyptian territories (under the Egypt/Israel Peace Treaty)

        ” But I suspect that with typical anti-Semitic aplomb that it’s only the Jews you are concerned about”

        Non-Jewish Israelis are also prohibited from illegally settling in non-Israeli territories held under Israeli Military Occupation

      • Marnie
        August 31, 2016, 12:08 am

        “But I suspect that with typical anti-Semitic aplomb that it’s only the Jews you are concerned about.”

        Really, what a surprise.

        Where is the antisemitism? What is it actually? Define antisemitism and show, not with a feeling you might have, but actually prove Mr. T’s comment was antisemitic. The onus is on you to prove it, not for anyone you so blithely accuse to refute it. Go on.Will wait.

        I imagine you will slink back into your corner and froth at the mouth until you make an opportunity to slander again.

      • MHughes976
        August 31, 2016, 6:03 am

        The withdrawal of colonial powers, distant sovereigns, is one thing – and has happened a lot. The withdrawal of populations that moved into an area during the days of colonial power is another and has happened much less. I for one do not call for further movement of populations but I do call for an end to all situations where sovereign power is exercised over people whom that power does not enfranchise, except where the situation has an exceptional degree of consent.

      • echinococcus
        August 31, 2016, 10:18 am

        Hughes,

        Not to condone the expulsion of “civilian” colonial settlers is generally a result of humanist generosity and to be commended as such.

        This, however, means imposing a monstrous injustice on the most wronged. In the absence of general, informed consent of the owner population in the absence of duress, it is the equivalent of no less than good old Genghis Khan-grade conquest, period.
        Besides, the law to be applied here is definitely not retroactive.
        Also, the impact on people with guaranteed rights of other citizenship and uptake countries is not like the humanitarian catastrophe inflicted by the Zionist and their allies.

        After WWII, as Citizen says, many old-established Eastern Germans were expelled (illegally) along with the new, Nazi-brought, settler-colonials (legally.) In the case of Palestine, this would only apply to a very slender sliver of descendants of pre-conquest citizens, or perhaps all pre-partition Palestinian citizens. A different situation altogether.

      • Mooser
        August 31, 2016, 12:04 pm

        “typical anti-Semitic aplomb…”

        I’ve got ablomb! And peaches, and best of all, a nectarine! It’s canning season.

        “that it’s only the Jews you are concerned about”

        And right there, you are pissing off 200 million people! And most of them balebatim, too! Better step carefully.

    • amigo
      August 31, 2016, 8:27 am

      “How many of this lesser number were killed by Hamas militants misdirecting their fire?
      How many were being used as human shields?” mayhem

      You seem to have all the answers so you give us your numbers or should I say , those of MEMRI /C.A.M.E.R.A. et al zionist propaganda sites.

      Mayhem . it is quiet difficult to spot the difference between your hasbara and that of a raw graduate of the zionist school of hasbara.

      What,s it like to go through life never learning anything new.Must be the result of operating on a 2mb memory capacity.

      Speaking of using Human Shields !!!.


      Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times
      Posted on August 4, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog
      Israel Has Frequently Used Palestinians as Human Shields

      Israelis frequently accuse Palestinians of using human shields.

      That claim is highly questionable.

      However, in 2005, the Israeli high court found that Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian civilians as human shields 1,200 times in the past 5 years. As Ynet reported at the time:

      Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Tuesday demanded that the High Court review a ruling it issued last Thursday in which it declared that the ‘human shield’ procedure employed by the IDF when detaining Palestinian terror suspects is illegal and violates international law.

      Sources at the Ministry of Defense said that Mofaz’ comments are not an attempt to subvert the Court’s decision, adding that the defense minister intends to use democratic means to revoke the ruling.

      According to defense officials, the Israel Defense Forces made use of the ‘human shield’ procedure on 1,200 occasions over the last five years, and only on one occasion did a Palestinian civilian get hurt.

      An 18-year-old Palestinian was killed in 2002 during one such operation.

      Mofaz instructed the IDF to freeze the use of the ‘human shield’ and ‘early warning’ procedures in its arrest operations in the territories until the Court holds a new hearing on the issue.

      In 2009, Wikileaks published an Israeli government memo stating:

      Individual Palestinians also testified to IDF abuses such as looting, beatings, vandalism of property and the use of the local population as human shields. But by far the strongest reverbration in Israel was that created by the Israeli organization “Breaking the Silence”, which collected testimony from 26 unnamed IDF soldiers. All of the soldiers had been involved in Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip, and testified to instances where Gazans were used as human shields, incendiary phosphorous shells were fired over civilian population areas, and other examples of excessive firepower that caused unnecessary fatalities and destruction of property.

      The Nation noted last month:

      Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

      And the Guardian pointed out:

      Israel, meanwhile, does not have an unblemished record in the use of human shields. In 2010, two soldiers were convicted in an IDF military court of using an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield in its 2008-09 operation in Gaza. The pair ordered the child to search bags they suspected of being booby-trapped.”

      http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/israeli-high-court-israeli-soldiers-used-human-shields-1200-times-2006-2011.html

      ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

    • oldgeezer
      August 31, 2016, 10:58 am

      @mayhem

      Hamas had not been firing thousands of rockets at Israel for years and years. Additionally Hamas had been arresting terrorists from other groups that had fired the occassional rockets.

      Both of these facts are confirmed by Israel security officials in interviews with the press. I have posted links to these stories before.

      That round of fighting was precipitated by the GoI murdering a senior Hamas official.

      Take your made up hasbara/bs prooaganda and save it for your pro Israel sites where the gullible will suck up such a massive pile of dung.

  4. Citizen
    August 31, 2016, 7:27 am

    @ talknic

    You forgot French settlers withdrew from Algeria.
    And, an extra note: immediately after WW II, Thousands of ethnic Germans were forced to withdraw from the Eastern Europe, expelled from where they had lived for centuries., many died on the way.

    Also, Mayhem ignores that the 1945-6 Nuremberg & Tokyo Trials established more nuanced and new laws & their Geneva progeny enhanced those laws for the entire international community. One of the defenses at Nuremberg was that the victor states were applying ex post facto law.

    • echinococcus
      August 31, 2016, 10:34 am

      Talknic doesn’t only “ignore” the relevant examples of settler withdrawals.
      In his unstoppable zeal to defend the Zionist entity’s “right” to exist and salvage the Partition booty, elevating a totally illegal imposition and recognition of raw conquest by colonial powers to the level of undiscussible divine law, Talknic got to the point of adding:

      Non-Jewish Israelis are also prohibited from illegally settling in non-Israeli territories held under Israeli Military Occupation

      So this pretend-legalist defense pushes absurdity to the point of banning the Palestinian owners of the entire land and sovereignty from their own country. He assists the Zionist entity’s practice of imposing a fake citizenship on some of its Palestinian victims, under the pretext of defending their rights.

      • talknic
        August 31, 2016, 12:43 pm

        @ echinococcus

        You’re talking nonsense.

        “So this pretend-legalist defense”

        What ‘defense’? Neither the Armistice Agreements or GC IV are a ‘defense’ for continual Zionist colonization of Palestine

      • echinococcus
        August 31, 2016, 7:38 pm

        Stop that nonsense. Either you discuss what, in your mind, justifies your daily messages legitimating the existence of an illegal Zionist state anywhere, anytime in Palestine (ie the illegal UN decision against the will of its inhabitants) or you get used to being called on it.
        So your spurious legalism, respecting the fact that colonial powers can force some gathering of puppet government heads to sign on on a decision totally illegal according to their own Charter, is a defense of Zionist invasion.

        Also, you just now approved and justified barring access to post-1967 occupied Palestine for Palestinians given “Israel” citizenship pre-1967. That was your spurious legalism defending a monstrous violation of Palestinian rights.

      • talknic
        September 1, 2016, 1:09 am

        @ echinococcus August 31, 2016, 7:38 pm

        You’re way off beam.

        There’s nothing wrong in principle with two states were each to uphold their agreement to the obligations of statehood as they stated they would in order to be recognized as worthy of recognition by the majority of the International Comity of Nations and subsequently accepted into the UN, obliging themselves to its principles.

        My argument is against Zioni$m and over 100 years of and ongoing illegal colonization via their pyramid scheme. Their own words to show them to be liars, not to be trusted, least of all by Israelis.

        Zionism’s supporters argue there is a legitimate State of Israel. My argument is with them and their their assertions

        Like it or not, Israel does exist as a state. It’s legitimacy can be called to question. It never the less exists

        It became that state by agreeing to a scheme adopted by a majority vote thru the UN, borders included. That is the starting point for any legal argument on behalf of and/or against the existingState of Israel.

        Like it or not. It now exists. Like it or not Israel is obliged to the Laws it agreed to uphold.

        Israel should therefore live up to the duties of statehood for all its citizens and its neighbours, which, in an ideal world, would hopefully result in people living with full rights peacefully amongst and next to each other, whatever shape their respective states or a single state might take.

        High jumpers don’t aim under the bar. That’s why folk have spent centuries pondering humanity’s vexations and devising guidelines (Laws) that if agreed to and followed would hopefully bring us closer to a more harmonious, effective existence realizing the incredible potential of humanity

        Meanwhile, back in ZioLaLaLand, the Ziopoop says Israel proclaimed no borders. It clearly did in accepting UNGA res 181. The same borders recognized by the US, USSR, Australia and subsequently enough UN Member states for Israel to be accepted into the UN and oblige itself to the UN Charter and all it entails

        Like it or not that’s what happened. Israel should live up to its obligations and live within its recognized borders

        “your spurious legalism, respecting the fact that colonial powers can force some gathering of puppet government heads to sign on on a decision totally illegal according to their own Charter, is a defense of Zionist invasion”

        Like it or not, that’s what happened! I have neither respect for it happening nor can I justify it happening, but it DID HAPPEN!

        ” … you just now approved and justified barring access to post-1967 occupied Palestine for Palestinians given “Israel” citizenship pre-1967. That was your spurious legalism defending a monstrous violation of Palestinian rights”

        That is the status. It happened without my input or approval. Now Israel should adhere to its obligations

        It also happens that the Palestinian position is that it is generously willing to accept only 22% of the Palestinians rightfull territories in order to have peace with Israel. It happened without my approval.

        There are millions of innocent victims to the Zionist crime, Palestinians and Israeli, Jewish and non-Jewish alike. Seems the Palestinians are willing to extend those victims consideration, the hand of friendship and forgiveness, you’re not

      • echinococcus
        September 1, 2016, 2:10 am

        Strange logic, Talknic.

        There’s nothing wrong in principle with two states were each to uphold their agreement to the obligations of statehood

        There sure is something wrong if one of them is illegitimate and sitting on the other’s territory. Upholding some “agreement” to “obligations” is always good of course, but it does not constitute justice, and there is nothing to forbid your stating the requirements of full justice even while you are asking for or agreeing to a compromise.

        To do otherwise is to contribute to Zionist propaganda by legitimating their entity’s existence, no way out of that. Smaller, gentler, etc. is irrelevant. We’re talking existence at all.

        Their own words to show them to be liars, not to be trusted, least of all by Israelis

        Sure, sure, that cannot hurt, do it all you want –as long as you do not create the impression that their very presence is somehow legitimated by that concession: to do otherwise makes definitive the injustice and gives a toehold to Zionist propaganda.

        Like it or not, Israel does exist as a state

        Of course it does. Who says otherwise. Everything that exists is made to unexist under our very eyes. African colonies, Algérie française, Soviet Union, Yugoslav Federation, just count.

        It became that state by agreeing to a scheme adopted by a majority vote thru the UN, borders included

        and justice requires its undoing, period. Otherwise, bring a credible, comprehensive and recognized plebiscite, please.

        It became that state by agreeing to a scheme adopted by a majority vote thru the UN, borders included. That is the starting point for any legal argument on behalf of and/or against the existing State of Israel

        No, that is the arrival point. The starting point is that that vote is totally illegal by the UN’s own charter, has been obtained under false pretenses by colonial powers and must be undone.

        Affirming this does not forbid you from doing the best of whatever remnants of international legality may be brought to bear on the usurper and constraining it to do this or that (good luck.)

        Not representing at every opportunity that a compromise is a compromise but justice ultimately requires something different is, however, a huge disservice to the Palestinian resistance because it reinforces the already dominant illusion that no matter their horrible excesses the Zionists have or may have some legitimacy in being there.

        Anyone, neither you nor I have the right to extend forgiveness, the milk of human kindness, or any of that kind of nice things in the name of the Palestinian people, who were not consulted so far, were not represented and up to now have not shown any signs of letting go of their rights.

        (By the way, all that talk of obtaining any compromise… is that in any way more realistic than a radical solution? Really? Looking at all these years? If you believe for a split second that anything is gonna happen without very major war, tell me how, with some believable basis.)

      • talknic
        September 2, 2016, 11:38 pm

        @ echinococcus September 1, 2016, 2:10 am

        “Strange logic, Talknic”

        There’s nothing strange in advocating the rule of law

        “There sure is something wrong if one of them is illegitimate and sitting on the other’s territory.”

        [ Rpt … There’s nothing wrong in principle with two states were each to uphold their agreement to the obligations of statehood ]

        “To do otherwise is to contribute to Zionist propaganda by legitimating their entity’s existence, no way out of that”

        [ Rpt … My argument is against Zioni$m and over 100 years of and ongoing illegal colonization via their pyramid scheme. Their own words to show them to be liars, not to be trusted, least of all by Israelis

        Zionism’s supporters argue there is a legitimate State of Israel. My argument is with them and their their assertions

        Like it or not, Israel does exist as a state. It’s legitimacy can be called to question … ]

        ” … as long as you do not create the impression that their very presence is somehow legitimated by that concession: to do otherwise makes definitive the injustice and gives a toehold to Zionist propaganda”

        I’m entirely against Zionist propaganda and the Zionist 1897 plan for colonizing Palestine.

        //It became that state by agreeing to a scheme adopted by a majority vote thru the UN, borders included. That is the starting point for any legal argument on behalf of and/or against the existing State of Israel//

        “No, that is the arrival point. The starting point is that that vote is totally illegal by the UN’s own charter, has been obtained under false pretenses by colonial powers”

        The proclamation of the State of Israel coming into effect at precisely 00:01 My 15th 1948 (ME time) is the starting point for arguments against the State of Israel. http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        Prior to that point the argument is against the UN http://wp.me/PDB7k-Q#jews-can-live-anywhere

        ” and must be undone”

        Undone how? Other than thru the UN, how will the innocent be given their justice without a major war and would a major war end in favour of the Palestinians? Both Palestinians and Israelis (and most of the world) (and Judaism itself) have been victims of the Zionist Movement’s duplicity.

        “Anyone, neither you nor I have the right to extend forgiveness, the milk of human kindness, or any of that kind of nice things in the name of the Palestinian people who were not consulted so far, were not represented and up to now have not shown any signs of letting go of their rights …”

        At the UN in front of the world as representative of the State of Palestine:

        we agreed to establish the State of Palestine on only 22% of the territory of historical Palestine – on all the Palestinian Territory occupied by Israel in 1967.

        We, by taking that historic step, which was welcomed by the States of the world, made a major concession in order to achieve a historic compromise that would allow peace to be made in the land of peace.

        Let us build the bridges of dialogue instead of checkpoints and walls of separation, and build cooperative relations based on parity and equity between two neighboring States – Palestine and Israel – instead of policies of occupation, settlement, war and eliminating the other

        “(By the way, all that talk of obtaining any compromise… is that in any way more realistic than a radical solution? Really? Looking at all these years? If you believe for a split second that anything is gonna happen without very major war, tell me how, with some believable basis.)”

        What you offer is more bloodshed. East Timor was eventually freed from Indonesian occupation via the UN. It took years of lobbying. One can hope for and promote the same thru exposing the Zionist Movement for what it is.

        Writing letters to government representatives outlining the legal arguments and/or acting in support of movements that promote peace and justice takes up most of my time. To that end I’ll not be responding in future to your squabbling and falling into the age olde colonist trap of divide and conquer.

        Peace

      • echinococcus
        September 2, 2016, 11:58 pm

        “Rule of law” my @$$, Talknic. There is no rule of law with a totally illegitimate state. You guys who defend a “fact on the ground” of a Zionist entity, because undoing it is impractical, without ever discussing the difference between justice and compromise, are reinforcing 100 years of Zionist propaganda and spreading the idea of the Zionist entity’s initial legitimacy and untouchable character.
        Your presenting the despicable selling out of Palestinian rights in Oslo, by a bunch of bought and paid-for Quislings and Pétains, as if they had any right to represent the Palestinian people, is perhaps just as destructive.
        Continue writing nice letters to important people in the hope that they will be put to better use than toilet paper. I agree that this must be done, too. Only, it should be done without believing in the Tooth Fairy of East Timor visitinf Palestine.

      • Mooser
        September 3, 2016, 7:11 pm

        “Rule of law” my @$$, Talknic.”

        “Echin” this debate would make more sense to me if you can come up with something which shows that retreating to the Partition Lines is an Israeli contingency plan.
        I don’t think it is. They consider those lines “indefensible”.
        The entire point of mentioning Israel’s declared lines is that Israel has not, and will not ever comply with them.

      • echinococcus
        September 3, 2016, 8:28 pm

        Mooser,

        Retreating to the Partition Lines is not a contingency plan for most Zionists, of course (it is so for the “lib-Zio” cuddly genocidaires only.)
        You are correct, they do consider those lines “indefensible”.

        But the partition by itself, no matter along defensible lines or not, is the cornerstone of all of today’s Zionist “legitimacy”; it gives them a fig leaf for being anywhere on Palestinian soil. Without it, they are officially intruding pirates.

        Repeating a recognition of the Partition abomination, even if you oppose all the rest of the Zionist program, continues to embed in impressionable brains the idea that somewhere, somehow, there is some legitimacy and legality to the Zionist claim. It’s the worst possible propaganda and we don’t need it parroted by people we think would support us.

        Of course you can both try to force the outlaws to comply with only part of the requirements and at the same time point out to the fact that the bandits are total outlaws. What I am protesting is that (ill-willed) pretense that asking for the Zionists to retreat to armistice lines, or concede a Palestinian “state”, or any amount of other partial requests are incompatible with affirming that the partition is illegal and a major colonialist crime against humanity.

        And good luck with all the “requests” to the Zionists…

      • talknic
        September 3, 2016, 9:40 pm

        @ echinococcus September 2, 2016, 11:58 pm

        ” “Rule of law” my @$$, Talknic. There is no rule of law with a totally illegitimate state.”

        Israel, the Zionist Movement‘s “illegitimate” state, agreed to uphold the law. It hasn’t.

        ” You guys who defend a “fact on the ground” of a Zionist entity”

        Stating that something exists is not a defense of its existence. The weather reporter doesn’t defend the weather

        “… without ever discussing the difference between justice and compromise”

        It’s the very basis of my argument. Justice and compromise come about by determining responsibility.

        The statements of the pre-state Jewish Agency, the Zionist Movement and the official statements of representatives of the State of Israel whose borders were set at precisely 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time), tell us that the Zionist Movement‘s state is entirely responsible for the debacle and that it has offered neither justice or compromise. The Palestinians and Arab States have offered both in keeping with and exceeding the requirements of the UN Charter

        “Continue writing nice letters to important people in the hope that they will be put to better use than toilet paper”

        I’d tell you to go stick your head in one, except you rightly …

        ” … agree that this must be done, too. Only, it should be done without believing in the Tooth Fairy of East Timor “

        East Timor now has its independence. It’s a fact

      • Mooser
        September 3, 2016, 9:49 pm

        “Mooser…”

        Thanks for the reply, “Echin”. I do see the problem you are talking about. The UN was bamboozled into giving the Zionist entity a legitimacy for which it never even met the minimum standards , and thus did not deserve.
        However I think by the time it gets to any discussion of Israel living within, or even close to within those lines, (and up to the other parts of the Partition, say) it’ll be because Israel is so near to collapse or in collapse it won’t matter.

      • echinococcus
        September 3, 2016, 10:40 pm

        Thanks for chatting, Mooser.

        You’re right again in that “by the time it gets to any discussion of Israel living within, or even close to within those lines, (and up to the other parts of the Partition, say) it’ll be because Israel is so near to collapse or in collapse it won’t matter”, not a truer word.

        Here’s the catch, though: in order to get anywhere close to forcing the pirates to comply, we need a majority of humans to stop believing (even in an inarticulated way) that “Israel has a right to exist”, given that that is precisely what stymies all protest.

        Just repeating that “Israel” must comply with this or that regulation (and yes, one has to insist on that totally impossible task, too) without accompanying that with an affirmation that the bastard state has no right to exist in the first place feeds Zionist “right to exist” propaganda. It has become the default belief.

        We have to get back the uninformed to the natural, default state of mind: “Wait a minute! Where are these foreigners dropping from? What business have all these guys got even going there at all? Get us the manager here! Who let these bums in?”

        You can’t get there if you keep creating the impression that there is a legitimate “Israel” in Palestine and/or separate from Palestine.

  5. Ossinev
    August 31, 2016, 1:47 pm

    @DaBakr
    “maybe the vastly-by 1000s- greater numbers of children being killed daily in the greater middle east has made it more difficult to feel specifically concerned excpt for only those who are singularly devoted to the palestinian cause rather then the absence left by all children killed by conflict. i could be wrong but i’m not the only one: just saying”

    “just saying” my a..e. Yet another crass example of knee jerk hasbara “whataboutery”. So Monsieur DaBakr according to your one dimensional Zionist logic if a politician or a MSM commentator in a discussion about the deaths of six million jews killed in the Holocaust dares to say well remember that there were around 20 million Russians military and civilians killed by the Nazis then you and your ilk would say that is fine , in no way diminishes the Holocaust and is in no way anti – semitic.

    I don`t think so

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