Saving the daughters of Israel from the annihilation of intermarriage

Middle East
on 211 Comments

Haaretz recently published Or Kashti’s article concerning the Israeli Jewish organization “Hemla” (which means “mercy”), which runs a “shelter” for female youths. “According to the organization, the shelter is geared toward ‘female youths from broken homes who are at risk of shmad’ – a Hebrew term that denotes coerced conversion to another religion”, notes Kashti.

One should not be in doubt as to who the villains who threaten to “coerce” these girls are. In a promotional flyer released two years ago, the head of Hemla, Elyakim Neiman, described intermarriage between Jewish women and Arab men as a “national plague.” He said, “We are doing our best to save these girls before they reach [Arab] villages and give birth to ‘Ahmad Ben Moshe.'” A promotional leaflet boasted that the woman who runs the shelter, Rachel Baranes, has dedicated her life to “saving the daughters of Israel from the claws of the Ishmaelites,” which is a term referring to ‘Arabs’.

An article published in 2009 in “Eretz Israel Shelanu” (Our Land of Israel), a newsletter associated with the radical right, describes Hemla’s boardinghouse as the only shelter for Jewish girls “rescued” from Arab villages.

This may all seem like a bizarre anti-miscegenation religious-nationalist fringe aberration, one which would be funded by donations from extremists. But here is the upshot: The Israeli Social Services Ministry massively funds the shelter, in fact funding half of its expenses costing 2.6 million shekels a year ($685,000). The Ministry has recently agreed to increase funding for the institution to 1.3 million shekels a year, doubling the level of its support since 2012.

To understand just how central the issue of anti-assimilation in Israel is, we may note comments by Member of Knesset Yair Lapid about it just over two years ago. A ‘centrist’ and ‘liberal,’ Lapid, interviewed on an Israel Waves radio program, found it important to state his essential honest view about this: “It would bother me if my son married a non-Jew… It would bother me greatly.”

Lapid was responding to a massive demonstration by members of Benzi Gopstein’s anti-miscegenation group Lehava outside the wedding of a couple, where the woman had converted to Islam and married a Muslim. As Haaretz notes, Gopstein and Lehava have in the past been closely linked to Hemla. Gopstein was a member of Hemla for years, until leaving in 2014. That year, Hemla paid Gopstein’s wife, Anat, 66,000 shekels ($17,300) for “seeking out girls” for the shelter, according to documents from the NGO registrar.

Such acts of seeking to avert intermingling between Jews and non-Jews are not limited to ultra-religious right groups. Israeli municipalities have enacted such programs. Here is an example of the Petah Tikva municipality in 2009, reported by Yediot Aharonot (notice, ‘men from minorities’ is a euphemism for ‘Arabs’):

“A special team in the youth department of the Petah Tikva (near Tel Aviv) municipality will locate [Jewish] girls in the habit of meeting with men from minorities and will assist them. The decision comes after a relationship was discovered between a girl from the city and minority men from Jaljulya who murdered Arik Karp last month on a Tel Aviv beach.

“The problem of minority men is well-known,” said the chief of the youth department, Moshe Spektor. “Our attempts to deal with this problem are real and sincere. The municipality is making an effort to examine the matter in cooperation with the police.””

Kiryat Gat in the south has also been running programs to avert contact between Jewish girls and Muslim, particularly Bedouin, men. As Haaretz reported:

The programme enjoys the support of the municipality and the police, and is headed by Kiryat Gat’s welfare representative, who goes to schools to warn girls of the “exploitative Arabs”. The programme uses a video entitled “Sleeping with the Enemy,” which features a local police officer and a woman from the Anti-Assimilation Department, a wing of the religious organisation Yad L’ahim, which works to prevent Jewish girls from dating Muslim men.

The term “Shmad” is a very interesting one in Jewish tradition. Whilst referring to conversion, its root is the Hebrew letters SHIN, MEM and DALET – SH-M-D, a root which refers to “annihilation”. The Hebrew noun for annihilation is thus HASHMADA. This is a very loaded term to use for conversion – and it betrays a perception inherent in Judaism, to regard conversion as a sort of betrayal of the ‘tribe’, causing it to shrink.

Avigail Abarbanel has recently written a crushing article, “Why I Left the Cult”, wherein she regards precisely this aspect:

“I know what annihilation means to you. It doesn’t just mean killing. Annihilation means that the Jewish people, that Jewishness itself would no longer exist. To you ‘assimilation’ is also annihilation. They taught us that at school. We were taught that assimilation was despicable, cowardly, treacherous to our people. Whenever Jewish people marry non-Jews in their own countries, and when all traces of Jewishness, whatever it is, become diluted, you worry. You think it’s the end. Because there are no individuals, only the group, when the group goes individuals go too. So you feel any perceived threat to the group as a personal threat to each one of you. That’s why you cry antisemitism so readily and reflexively, whenever you perceive the slightest threat to your cult state.”

The idea of “deserting the tribe” has also translated itself into ostensibly secular Zionist discourse. Israelis have been historically cautious to not proclaim too much nationalist chauvinism in this respect, probably so that others would not see them as an extremist Jewish cult as it were. But the term for Jewish immigrant was and still is – “oleh” – an ‘ascender’. The opposite term (for a Jew emigrating from Israel) is, as one may guess, “yored” – a ‘descender’. Even a ‘secular’, ‘leftist’ leader like Yitzhak Rabin regarded the ‘descenders’ as “trash” (noted by Uri Avnery).

I have had various conversations with secular Jews, who, knowing that I was married to a non-Jew, voiced their concerns about “mixed marriages”, the shrinking of the “Jewish nation” and so on. In my own wedding (with my ex-wife), I made a speech regarding this aspect. I mentioned the “oleh” and “yored” terms, to the noticeable embarrassment of the many Jewish Israelis assembled in Copenhagen, and noted this concern inherent in many Jews, of the “disappearance” of the Jews – not by genocide, but by ‘intermarriage’, and in Zionist perception, by emigration. I had fulfilled both sins.

You would think it was the end of the world to live ‘abroad’ and marry a ‘shiksa’.

For many Jews, it seems, it is the end of the world, especially if it is an “Arab”. Even my Jewish, secular, leftist, liberal contacts were not ashamed to opine that a marriage between an Israeli Jew and an “Arab” can’t work. They said this outright in a conversation with my non-Jewish ex-wife – that is to say, marrying an ‘Arab’ is considered an even graver transgression than marrying a non-Arab, non-Jew.

The general perception amongst the municipalities, religious organisations and vigilante groups involved in anti-miscegenation campaigns is predominantly that it is (Jewish) ‘girls’ that are to be protected from (Arab or Muslim) ‘men’. This focus adds a sexist element to the conviction, suggesting an ostensible ‘mission to protect’ the ‘weak’, ‘naïve’ and ‘ignorant’ side against the insidious and cunning ‘men’:

“The problem is always with Jewish girls dating Arab men. The Arab guy comes and buys them things, treats them well. They fall for it. They can’t see what they are doing” says one of the leaders of a vigilante patrol group named Fire for Judaism, which works closely with the police and is funded by private donations.

Returning to the Hemla organisation, its name means “mercy” or “compassion” in Hebrew. This seems to be based in the idea that they are doing everyone, especially the girls, a ‘favor’. Because the girls don’t know what’s good for them.

About Jonathan Ofir

Israeli musician, conductor and blogger / writer based in Denmark.

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211 Responses

  1. eljay
    November 15, 2016, 1:49 pm

    Haaretz recently published Or Kashti’s article concerning the Israeli Jewish organization “Hemla” … “According to the organization, the shelter is geared toward ‘female youths from broken homes who are at risk of shmad’ – a Hebrew term that denotes coerced conversion to another religion”, notes Kashti. …

    So what if Jewish females convert to another religion: Jewish is a tribe, a collective, a culture, an ethnicity, a people, a nation and a civilization – remember?

    Oh, that’s right, Jewish is all of those things except for when it’s not because Zio-supremacists have (invariably) reduced it to religion. Funny how that works…

    • echinococcus
      November 15, 2016, 5:44 pm

      Isn’t it possible that you are totally on the wrong track there: Zionists have always, in the end, made race (fake race, of course) the ultimate touchstone for their definition of Judaism.
      Otherwise you wouldn’t even be able to explain the origins of Zionism –a century of atheist leadership dictating the public’s adoration before the myth of thousands of years of uninterrupted begats in a scattered nation.

      So it’s a religion, no, it’s “a tribe, a collective, a culture, an ethnicity, a people, a nation and a civilization”, perhaps at the same time all of the above and a very good furniture polish, too, but at the end, when the legal and ideological framework has to decide definitively it’s in every case about being born of a Jewish woman (with some low tolerance around the fathers.) Converts have never been more than the one in a million show-window item.

      Zionism is pure racial supremacism. Its definition of the Master Race is more selective than that of the Nazis.

      • Mooser
        November 15, 2016, 6:01 pm

        ” it’s in every case about being born of a Jewish woman”

        And if you are not, I’m pretty sure there’s an app you can get to change it.

      • echinococcus
        November 16, 2016, 6:53 am

        I’m sure there’s a way to get around anything at all, including death. Depends Who you know.

      • eljay
        November 16, 2016, 8:44 am

        || echinococcus: Isn’t it possible that you are totally on the wrong track there: Zionists have always, in the end, made race (fake race, of course) the ultimate touchstone for their definition of Judaism. … ||

        IMO, Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity: No Judaism, no Jewish.

        (It’s also a choice – to become Jewish, to be Jewish or to stop being Jewish – but I’ll set that aside for now.)

        Zionists work very hard to convert Jewish into something more than a religion-based identity, but even they consistently fall back on religion as the basis of Jewish and, for example, argue against:
        – Muslim Jews or Christian Jews (or Jews of any other religion); and
        – a bureaucratic nationality of Jewish for all citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”.

        And if Person A points out Person B’s Jewish nationality or ethnicity or culture, you can count on Zio-supremacists to accuse Person A of anti-Semitism for pointing out Person B’s religion.

      • rosross
        November 16, 2016, 10:07 am

        @eljay,

        Well said. The Zionist fantasy of a Jew being a racial or ethnic label is ridiculous.

        All religions confer ethnicity as religious metaphor, not as a reality. Ethiopian Jews have about as much in common with London Jews as Ethiopian Christians have with London Christians.

        If you drop Judaism you do not change race or nationality and the same applies if you convert to Judaism. The first Jew, like the first member of any religion was a convert. You cannot convert to a race.

      • echinococcus
        November 16, 2016, 11:33 am

        Eljay,

        We know all that. Do the Zionists and most Jews know it?
        As the madman said, does my toothbrush know it’s not a dog?

        The Zionists (and most Jews themselves) define it as a strictly racial category. Period.
        And the Zionists act on it by operating a racial supremacist colonial regime.
        With me so far?

        So let’s not confuse all with statements like “Jewish is all of those things except for when it’s not because Zio-supremacists have (invariably) reduced it to religion”. The Zionists reduce it invariably to a Nazi-style racial regime, not to religion, while the concept “annihilation” by conversion as opposed to the full acceptance of the atheist tribe member, an old and traditional concept, confirms the racism of the religion itself.

      • eljay
        November 16, 2016, 12:14 pm

        || echinococcus: … The Zionists (and most Jews themselves) define it as a strictly racial category. Period. … ||

        Zionists (and most Jews themselves) define Israel as a “Jewish State”. Period. When did you decide to start accepting what Zionists say? ;-)

      • echinococcus
        November 16, 2016, 7:06 pm

        Eljay,

        I have to conclude that you cannot read. Nohow.
        You agreed that the Zionist entity functions on the basis of fake racialism, not of the many make-believe categories displayed for distraction (which include religion.)

        My objection was to your sentence:

        Jewish is all of those things except for when it’s not because Zio-supremacists have (invariably) reduced it to religion.

        I objected that Zionist supremacism is always reduced to race when pushed, and that your way of classifying them as religion-based discrimination and oppression, instead of a racist one, may be dangerous.

        You answered with a distraction:

        IMO, Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity: No Judaism, no Jewish.

        as if anyone was objecting to that.

        Now you come with another one:

        Zionists (and most Jews themselves) define Israel as a “Jewish State”. Period. When did you decide to start accepting what Zionists say? ;-)

        So I you may be relieved to know that I’m throwing the towel in. No use trying to discuss anything when linear logic gets systematically ignored, again and again. Thank you.

      • eljay
        November 17, 2016, 7:26 am

        || echinococcus: Eljay, I have to conclude that you cannot read. Nohow. … ||

        Fair enough. I have to conclude that you get whiny when people don’t see things / do things your way.

        || … You agreed that the Zionist entity functions on the basis of fake racialism, not of the many make-believe categories displayed for distraction (which include religion.) … ||

        My point was and remains that Zionism is religion-based supremacism. You disagree with me. I’m okay with that, but evidently you’re not.

        || … My objection was to your sentence: Jewish is all of those things except for when it’s not because Zio-supremacists have (invariably) reduced it to religion. I objected that Zionist supremacism is always reduced to race when pushed, and that your way of classifying them as religion-based discrimination and oppression, instead of a racist one, may be dangerous. … ||

        I know you objected to my “way of classifying [Jewish] as religion-based”, but that’s what I believe it fundamentally to be and that’s what I routinely see it being reduced to by Zio-supremacists. You disagree with me. I’m okay with that, but evidently you’re not.

        || … So I you may be relieved to know that I’m throwing the towel in. … ||

        Doesn’t matter to me. And, don’t worry, I won’t call you a quitter. ;-)

        || … No use trying to discuss anything when linear logic gets systematically ignored, again and again. … ||

        What I’m ignoring is your insistence that I see things your way. You can call that “linear logic” if you like. And if you want to refer to your petulance as “taking the high road”, that’s fine too.

        || … Thank you. ||

        You’re welcome. :-)

      • echinococcus
        November 17, 2016, 9:17 am

        I see, Eljay. Looks like logical consistency is not a value and there is no need to address the point. OK.

      • eljay
        November 17, 2016, 9:47 am

        || echinococcus: I see, Eljay. … ||

        No, I don’t think you do.

        || … Looks like logical consistency is not a value … ||

        You should try valuing it.

        || … and there is no need to address the point. OK. ||

        Let me guess: You’re going to “throw the towel in”. Again.

        You’re funny. :-)

      • JWalters
        November 20, 2016, 8:35 pm

        Completely agree. At a time when Jews were successfully being accepted into Western European countries, after French Jews declared to Napoleon that they could be loyal French citizens, Herzl advocated a Jewish state to stop the resulting assimilation of Jews in Western Europe. That acceptance of Jews, despite the success it brought, was Herzl’s catastrophe. That Jewish supremacism was the “intellectual” root of Zionism.

    • Mikhael
      November 24, 2016, 11:17 pm

      eljay November 15, 2016, 1:49 pm
      So what if Jewish females convert to another religion: Jewish is a tribe, a collective, a culture, an ethnicity, a people, a nation and a civilization – remember?

      Oh, that’s right, Jewish is all of those things except for when it’s not because Zio-supremacists have (invariably) reduced it to religion. Funny how that works…

      Funny how eljay’s mind doesn’t work. “Jewish” indeed primarily refers to a tribe, a collective, a culture, an ethnicity, a people, a nation and a civilization and when someone officially converts to a non-Jewish religion, they can still retain their Jewish culture and national identity. Even Jewish religious law recognizes this and does not consider an apostate from religious Judaism to another faith to have lost Jewish status, although it does regard them as having committed a grievous sin. So certainly religious Jewish people regard it as a tragedy when a Jew professes a non-Jewish faith. Since this article refers to people involved with a religious fundamentalist Jewish organization, it is understood by people of normal intelligence that such people would seek to minimize Jews abandoning religious Judaism. Secular and atheistic Jews understand that one can be a Jew and a non-religious person, or even, in theory, a Muslim or Christian Jew (were it not for the fact that both Islam and Christianity make demands on a Jew who adopts Xtianity or Islam to abandon a Jewish identity). There certainly are, however, many Jewish adherents of non-theistic religions like Buddhism. (E.g., the late Leonard Cohen, an ordained Buddhist monk.) As Jewishness is primarily a national and not a religious identity, this is not a contradiction.

      • eljay
        November 25, 2016, 8:05 am

        || Mikhael: Funny how eljay’s mind doesn’t work … ||

        It works with what it’s given, including repeated confirmation by Zio-supremacists that no matter how you dress it up, Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity.

        || … Even Jewish religious law … does not consider an apostate from religious Judaism to another faith to have lost Jewish status … ||

        Funny how your mind works. What Jewish religious law has to say on the matter is irrelevant – Jewish is an ethnicity and a nationality, remember?

        || … So certainly religious Jewish people regard it as a tragedy when a Jew professes a non-Jewish faith. … ||

        But they shouldn’t regard it as a tragedy given that the convert remains part of the Jewish tribe, collective, culture, ethnicity, people, nation and civilization.

        || … Secular and atheistic Jews understand that one can be a Jew and a non-religious person, or even, in theory, a Muslim or Christian Jew (were it not for the fact that both Islam and Christianity make demands on a Jew who adopts Xtianity or Islam to abandon a Jewish identity). … ||

        I’m very curious to know by what specific mechanism(s) Christianity and Islam strip a religious convert’s Jewish (non-religious) ethnicity and nationality from him.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 12:35 pm

        “As Jewishness is primarily a national and not a religious identity, this is not a contradiction.”

        That’s the reason why Jews should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Israel country. Jews already have a national identity (“Jewish”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.
        Zionists want all non-Jews to know that Jews, having their own national identity (They are from the State of Jewish) should always be held under civil disabilities and suspicion, as outsiders and alien nationals.

        Right Mikhael?

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 1:05 pm

        “What Jewish religious law has to say on the matter is irrelevant – Jewish is an ethnicity and a nationality, remember?”

        Jewish religious law in Israel? “You can always get what you want!”

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 1:54 pm

        But I see out expert on marriage in Israel (and internationally) is here. Take it away, Mikhael!
        When you are done, I am pretty sure most readers will have a clear understanding of the problem.

      • Raphael
        November 25, 2016, 9:19 pm

        Mikhael

        As a Catholic Jew, I’m still trying to figure out why the Jewishness of Jesus is not understood. I started reading a book called Empire Baptized, by Wes Howard-Brook about this.

        The way I interpret 21st century Judaism is that for a majority of Jews in the world perhaps 60%… is that it is a theonational (mostly religious) system, and, that in Israel that perhaps 95% think Judaism is theonational. When I lived there the secular and atheistic Jews all fall in line, or under the religious laws created by the orthodox.

        But in the US, the American Jews in the 21st century are much more diverse… but tribal in their ways in smaller tribes making up perhaps thousands of different types of Judiasms, secular, atheistic, religious and hybrid Americanized Jewish tribes etc. But, Jewishness I personally think is something more to the point of what all the controversy is over.

        As Jesus as a icon of faith for Christians was developing in the early years; his Jewishness was forgotten when his followers stopped being mostly Jews and started to be a faith of mostly goys.

        I think if I recall from his book that was around the 4th century. And, the talmudic Jews it seems to me developed as a consequence of the destruction of the second temple in a attempt to nationalize Judaism even without having actual borders of a nation. They then defined the Judaism that we have to this day. But the rabbis never covered the topic of Jewishness, such as a Jewish personality, a Jewish nose the Jewish persona. So Hollywood defined it.

        I’m not Jewish; but to the goy world I’m a Jew, because, of racial laws that were created by goys and Jews that follow the religion of Judaism.

        It seems to me that for Israel to be the homeland of the Jewish people, that it has to become a home for the Jews or Israelites (non Jews) and not a nation; to compete with other nations; and develop a pacifistic strategy to deal with local conflicts like that are in Judea and Samaria.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 1:26 am

        eljay November 25, 2016, 8:05 am

        It works with what it’s given, including repeated confirmation by Zio-supremacists that no matter how you dress it up, Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity

        Of course this is not true. My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. I am a non-believer in any sort of deity (although as an agnostic I am open to the possibility of some supernatural intelligence or creator) and I certainly don’t believe in the revelation at Sinai or any of the nonsense or superstitions that traditional Jewish religion demands of its believers. I do relate to these myths as national folkore of my people, however. My lack of belief in no way negates my Jewish national identity, which is a function of my ancestry, my heritage, my language and my cultural identity, and I will always remain a Jew despite my lack of belief or observance of ritual.

        || … Even Jewish religious law … does not consider an apostate from religious Judaism to another faith to have lost Jewish status … ||

        Funny how your mind works. What Jewish religious law has to say on the matter is irrelevant – Jewish is an ethnicity and a nationality, remember?

        It’s irrelevant to secular Jews like yours truly but it’s not irrelevant to religious Jews, who comprise a significant part of the Jewish nation. And it’s instructive because even the religious definition of Jewish status primarily conceptualizes Jewish belonging in terms of ancestry rather than mere faith, which is what a “religion-based identity” would demand.

        || … So certainly religious Jewish people regard it as a tragedy when a Jew professes a non-Jewish faith. … ||

        But they shouldn’t regard it as a tragedy given that the convert remains part of the Jewish tribe, collective, culture, ethnicity, people, nation and civilization.

        Religious people (like Orthodox Jews) believe in the value of religious things, and they will condemn apostates from Judaism with the well-known maxim “velamalshinim al tehi tiqva“, as “aloeste” did. They think it’s a tragedy that people like me don’t observe the Sabbath or strictly keep the dietary laws as well. Most Orthodox Jews will condemn a Jew who converts to a non-Jewish religion as someone who commits a grievous sin and who should suffer punishment in this life and the next (but who still retains Jewish status). But as for me, speaking as a non-religious, secular Jew who doesn’t believe in divine punishment, I certainly have no problem accepting a Jew who converts to another religion as a fellow Jew, if he/she still defines himsef or herself as such.
        And while there are certainly some Jews who adopt non-Jewish religious traditions and still retain a Jewish ethnic and national identity (e.g., the late Leonard Cohen, an ordained Buddhist monk who remained a proud Jew all his life, or even the late Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger of Paris who always insisted that he was a Catholic Jew until his dying day) most Jews who convert to non-Jewish religions, especially Islam or Christianity, do so with an intent to totally discard all aspects of their Jewish identity, ethnic as well as religious.

        I’m very curious to know by what specific mechanism(s) Christianity and Islam strip a religious convert’s Jewish (non-religious) ethnicity and nationality from him

        I guess you’re not clued in to basic Christian or Islamic doctrine. Christianity famously demands of its believers that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile .. you are all one in Christ Jesus”. Although the early Church was composed of practising, self-identified Jews, for centuries the guiding principle of most Christian denominations has been that Christian belief replaces Jewish identity. Only lately has there been a resurgence of such groups as “Jews for Jesus” (which is basically a missionary group) and some self-identified “Hebrew Chrtistians” or “Messianic Jews” who claim to synthesize Judaism and Christianity and a greater tolerance in established Christian denominations for converts to retain a Jewish identity along with a Christian identity. Some of the people affiliated with such groups are indeed of Jewish nationality who were raised with a Jewish cultural identity and came upon some strange belief in the allegedly resurrected godling, yet retain a feeling of connectedness and affiliation with other Jews and the Land of Israel despite their bizarre belief system. As a secular Jew and a Zionist, I would be a hypocrite to deny that Jews who espouse a belief in Christianity have cut away their Jewish national affiliation while I insist that secular, agnostic and atheist Jews like me retain a Jewish national identity. But most of the so-called “Jewish Christians” have no Jewish affiliation and define themselves as such merely to engage in missionary work to attract Jews to belief in the mythical crucified hairy fairy. Nevertheless, some do see themselves as Jews and are Jews, e.g., the aforementioned Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, a Jewish Roman Catholic, rejected the notion that he had to renounce his Jewish identity after his embrace of Catholicism. As for Islam, most interpretations of that religion demand of Muslims to abjure expressions of nationalism (even going so far as to insist that feeling of national solidarity with Muslim countrymen interferes with loyalty to the pan-Islamic ummah). So while on its face a religious expression of Jewishness might have more in common with Islam than , say, Buddhism, most new Muslims understand that Islam demands of a new convert (who they insist on calling a “revert”) a renunciation of previous affiliations for loyalty to the ummah. Of course, as a secular Jew and a liberal Zionist, I would have no problem with recognizing someone who defines him/herself as both a Jew and Muslim, but I have yet to meet such a person. I have known a few Jewish Buddhists (and Buddhism is much further from religious Judaism than Islam) and some self-defined Jewish Christians. If their cultural and national identity and ancestral background is Jewish then they are Jews.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 1:50 am

        Mooser November 25, 2016, 12:35 pm

        “As Jewishness is primarily a national and not a religious identity, this is not a contradiction.”

        That’s the reason why Jews should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Israel country. Jews already have a national identity (“Jewish”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country

        That’s the reason why Albanians should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Albania country. Albanians already have a national identity (“Albanians”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.

        That’s the reason why Chinese should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-China country.Chinese already have a national identity (“Chinese”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.

        That’s the reason why Estonians should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Estonia country. Estonians already have a national identity (“Estonians”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.

        That’s the reason why Koreans should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Korea country. Koreans already have a national identity (“Korean”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.

        That’s the reason why Irish should not be admitted to citizenship in any non-Ireland country. Irish already have a national identity (“Irish”), and can never be loyal citizens of any other country.

        I don’t believe that any of the above is true, but I guess you do.

        Zionists want all non-Jews to know that Jews, having their own national identity (They are from the State of Jewish) should always be held under civil disabilities and suspicion, as outsiders and alien nationals.

        Right Mikhael?

        Anti-Zionists are simpletons who believe in a binary world and who think that Jews, alone of all national groups, should be denied right to national self-determination in their original ancestral homeland. Self-styled “progressive” (who are anything but that) anti-Zionist Jews who live in democratic societies of the West and enjoy the freedoms in such countries, people like Phil Weiss and Mooser are secure. They fear that the existence of a militarily strong and culturally secure Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jewish People threatens their ability to assimilate in places like Bremerton, WA. This fear is unwarranted.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 2:07 am

        Raphael November 25, 2016, 9:19 pm

        Mikhael

        As a Catholic Jew, I’m still trying to figure out why the Jewishness of Jesus is not understood. I started reading a book called Empire Baptized, by Wes Howard-Brook about this.

        Haven’t read it. He clearly (if he existed) was a Jew andc thought of himself as a Jew.

        he way I interpret 21st century Judaism is that for a majority of Jews in the world perhaps 60%… is that it is a theonational (mostly religious) system, and, that in Israel that perhaps 95% think Judaism is theonational. When I lived there the secular and atheistic Jews all fall in line, or under the religious laws created by the orthodox

        I’ve seen the term “ethnoreligious” I guess that’s more or less the same thing you’re getting at with “theonational”.

        But in the US, the American Jews in the 21st century are much more diverse… but tribal in their ways in smaller tribes making up perhaps thousands of different types of Judiasms, secular, atheistic, religious and hybrid Americanized Jewish tribes etc. But, Jewishness I personally think is something more to the point of what all the controversy is over.

        I’m not Orthodox , although I was raised in an Orthodox family and received an Orthodox education. I’m convinced though that there is little prospect for Jewish continiuity in the US outside of an Orthodox religious framework. Only they do a good job of educating their kids with Jewish values, literacy and Hebrew language, besides the fact that the Orthodox outbreed non-Orthodox Jews and they also are the only group that consistently doesn’t marry out.

        As Jesus as a icon of faith for Christians was developing in the early years; his Jewishness was forgotten when his followers stopped being mostly Jews and started to be a faith of mostly goys.

        yeah, well, that goes back to Paul, doesn’t it?

        . And, the talmudic Jews it seems to me developed as a consequence of the destruction of the second temple in a attempt to nationalize Judaism even without having actual borders of a nation. They then defined the Judaism that we have to this day

        Absolutely. It was a Temple-centered cult but after the detsruction of the Temple they said “Give me Yavneh and its scholars” and Rabbinic Judaism developed and it became the defining expression ifor the following centuries (althouugh Karaite Judaism lingered on and contended with Rabbinite Judaism), but there were a plurality of Judaisms and ways to be Jewish in the 2nd Temple Period, Sadducceees, Pharisees, Ebionites, and even the Jesus Cult, originally. The Talmud and the Shulhan Arukh and all the other corpus of Jewish literature functioned essentially as a portable homeland, a vehicle to preserve Jewish national identity in the Diaspora. Early modern political Zionists idelogues diagnosed this and believed that Jewish religion would wither way once Jews regained sovereignty, I guess they were wrong, as Orthodoxy is ascendant in Israel these days. But I still maintain that only in Israel can there be a civil, non-religious Jewish national identity that can be inclusive of people who don’t conform to a halakhic definition of “Who Is a Jew?”

      • eljay
        November 26, 2016, 10:00 am

        || Mikhael: Of course this is not true. My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … ||

        Your Jewish identity is fundamentally religion-based. No Judaism, no Jewish.

        || … the religious definition of Jewish status primarily conceptualizes Jewish belonging in terms of ancestry … ||

        The religious definition of Jewish primarily conceptualizes that Jewish springs from Judaism.

        || … I guess you’re not clued in to basic Christian or Islamic doctrine. Christianity famously demands of its believers that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile .. you are all one in Christ Jesus”. … ||

        Telling me what “Christianity famously demands” does not explain how a religious conversion to Christianity or Islam strips from a Jewish convert his non-religious ethnicity and nationality.

      • Sibiriak
        November 26, 2016, 10:20 am

        eljay: Your Jewish identity is fundamentally religion-based
        ———————

        So, Jewish identity is not a straightforward religious identity, it is only religion-based?

        And then again, it’s not purely religion-based, it’s further qualified as fundamentally (not entirely) religion-based?

        Out of curiosity, why are these carefully crafted formulations about Jewish identity so important to you?

      • Mooser
        November 26, 2016, 12:51 pm

        “As a Catholic Jew…/…not a contradiction.”

        I want to thank you “Rafael” and also “Mikhael”! I thought it might be difficult for people to understand why those women are seeking, well, ‘alternatives’.
        But I’m almost certain it’ll be clear now, thanks to your conversation.

      • Mooser
        November 26, 2016, 2:00 pm

        “Out of curiosity, why are these carefully crafted formulations about Jewish identity so important to you?”

        Probably because they have a lot to do with how child-support and/or alimony is set in Israel.

      • eljay
        November 26, 2016, 2:39 pm

        || Sibiriak: So, Jewish identity is not a straightforward religious identity, it is only religion-based? … ||

        To my mind, “straightforward religious identity” implies that every person who is Jewish is religious. That’s not the case. But every person who is Jewish has an identity that is fundamentally religion-based because it can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        || … Out of curiosity, why are these carefully crafted formulations about Jewish identity so important to you? ||

        Which “carefully crafted formulations”? My assertion that Jewish is a religion-based identity is my opinion – not a “carefully-crafted formulation” – and it’s “so important” to me because it is the basis for my objection to the existence of Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” rather than as a secular and democratic Israeli state.

      • Raphael
        November 27, 2016, 10:55 am

        Mikhael

        Thank you for your thoughts about Israeliness the Jewish Identify, and other identities. I think Bernie Sanders was right about how Democrats need to rethink how they think about identity politics. I don’t know if my theories of why are similar to his.

        But, I think of Israel as being more as a theocracy run by the Orthodox, rather then say a ideal liberal democracy with a multicultural twist with all the other religions tolerated. Perhaps on paper Israel is that… but, day to day, while I lived there I did not see it.

        I think most of Trump voters want that theocratic traditional (orthodox Judaism, the magical Jerusalem) Old World political process as a part of the American Dream. They hope that Trump will bring them this during his time in office, as well as jobs in a theocratic religious democracy; that is more Old Testament in thought then New Testament. That is why the far right in Israel likes Trump.

        But in order for it to work anti-Semitism will probably increase, in the trust fund baby world of President Trump.

        I call it civil anti Semitism, of the Old World.

        For example, I was able to predict that Trump would easily win… though I voted for Clinton I knew she was not going to win. Most voters in time of fear I’m sure as most voters know vote Republican, conservative or traditional (orthodox).

        When I had visited a swing state before the election; I noticed the financial collapse of the industrial factory system. But the cultural system of that state was made of of many German immigrants. Trump is half German. That is why he won the rust belt.

        Genealogy, or a type of civil eugenics, seems to imply in identity politics that whomever is part of that ethnic group is better for them then those not of it.

        That is why I think Democrats need to rethink identity politics; or using the race card in the political process is counter to a ideal liberal multicultural liberal democracy.

        I’m guessing that the Germans that immigrated to the rust belt were of the protestant form of Germaneness… so that the way I interpret it is that people in the rust belt did not vote for Trump to only give them their Middle Class jobs back… but to bring about a change to bring America to the far right. So far right where it is also regression to Old World German values.

        There are no Jewish Catholics parish communities in the Catholic Church. They have Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, and Russian Catholic; but basically Jews within the Catholic Church are and invisible presence.

        Even after Vatican II things have not changed much from the times before Vatican II in wanting to change the theology in which Christianity is more open to Jewishness. It is on paper… but not, day to day, more open to the modern world.

      • Mooser
        November 27, 2016, 1:48 pm

        “There are no Jewish Catholics parish communities in the Catholic Church. They have Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, and Russian Catholic; but basically Jews within the Catholic Church are and invisible presence.”

        And to think that I hear Jews complaining about their entire families being lost in the Holocaust. They don’t know what suffering is, until they’ve been a “Catholic Jew” like Pablo Christiani or Johannes Pfefferkorn, and “Rafael”..

      • Raphael
        November 27, 2016, 6:38 pm

        Mikhael

        Here is a excellent reason why Trump won the Rust Belt region. He played the German race card. As a half German… it was to his benefit during the election; to not hide his German persona; I will leave it the audience what subtle gestures, and language he used, and did not use to illustrate his Germanness.

        Before, in the Trump dynasty history, he and his ancestors said they were From Sweden to not have the Jewish communities stop doing business with them.

        Donald Trump’s Family Hid German Roots — Especially When Selling to Jews
        By Ari FeldmanAugust 23, 2016

        The myth made it into Donald Trump’s 1987 book The Art of the Deal. In a section detailing his family history, he included that his grandfather “came from Sweden as a child.” Trump, surprisingly, was apparently loathe to stretch the facts of his family heritage.

        “Do I have to do this Swedish thing?” Trump asked his father, according to John Walter. (Trust fund baby talk).

        http://forward.com/news/national/348251/donald-trumps-family-hid-german-roots-especially-when-selling-to-jews/

        German Americans
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        The German American ethnic group (German: Deutschamerikaner) consists of Americans who have full or partial German ancestry. With an estimated size of approximately 46 million in 2014, German Americans are the largest of the ancestry groups reported by the US Census Bureau in its American Community Survey.[1] The group accounts for about ?1/3 of the total ethnic German population in the world.[6][7][8]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans#cite_note-6

      • Mikhael
        November 27, 2016, 9:38 pm

        eljay November 26, 2016, 10:00 am

        || Mikhael: Of course this is not true. My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … ||

        Your Jewish identity is fundamentally religion-based. No Judaism, no Jewish.

        No. It’s not. I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish. I’m as Jewish as Maimonides.

        || … the religious definition of Jewish status primarily conceptualizes Jewish belonging in terms of ancestry … ||

        The religious definition of Jewish primarily conceptualizes that Jewish springs from Judaism

        No. It doesn’t. It defines Jewish status based on ancestry and not in adoption of a creed. You’re a goy, and in this matter, extremely ignorant; so your input in this respect (like most things you scribble) is not valid.

        || … I guess you’re not clued in to basic Christian or Islamic doctrine. Christianity famously demands of its believers that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile .. you are all one in Christ Jesus”. … ||

        Telling me what “Christianity famously demands” does not explain how a religious conversion to Christianity or Islam strips from a Jewish convert his non-religious ethnicity and nationality

        If you had read carefully what I wrote (you’ve admitted to your ADD and inability to focus in past posts, so you may not have understood) I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality. Although Orthodox Jews recoil at the thought and consider such beliefs a deviant and disgusting sin (just as they recoil at the thought of gay Jews — never mind the fact that are Orthodox Jews leading closeted gay lives) , there are indeed Christian Jews (and there may be some Muslim Jews, I have yet to meet one).

        Nevertheless, the maxim ישראל אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא applies in these cases.

        However, functionally speaking if a Jew adopts a creed that demands that he abnegate the Jewish aspect of his/her identity then the Jewish identity will disappear in that person’s family. It is of course an individual’s right to choose, therefore I condemn the tactics used by the group featured in this article. However, some people today believe you can be simultaneously a Jew and a Christian/Muslim, and I don’t disagree, I just think that they have to adopt a version of Islam or Christianity that doesn’t demand they renounce their Jewish identity and find a group of Jews who are willing to accept them as Jews. Orthodox Jews who believe that they are committing a grievous sin won’t want to associate with them or would persecute them if they could, but still would have to admit that they are Jews. I would consider a Jew who willingly becomes a Christian to be somewhat distasteful or mentally disturbed, considering the harm that Christianity has done to Jews over the centuries, and I would be curious as to why, if such a person couldn’t accept religious Judaism, he/she didn’t simply become a Jewish atheist or agnostic. But I’d have to recognize that such a person is a Jew.

      • Mikhael
        November 27, 2016, 9:48 pm

        Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:48 pm

        And to think that I hear Jews complaining about their entire families being lost in the Holocaust. They don’t know what suffering is, until they’ve been a “Catholic Jew” like Pablo Christiani or Johannes Pfefferkorn, and “Rafael”..

        You remind me more of Pfefferkorn (I wrote an undergrad paper on him and Reuchlin, and the Christian Hebraists many, many years ago) and Pablo Christiani much more than Rafael does.

        Rafael, IIRC and if his description of himself is to be believed and I see no reason why it shouldn’t, is a product of intermarriage. Absent an Orthodox conversion, the Orthodox won’t accept him as a Jew, but he’s not going to do it, because he believes in Roman Catholicism. He still embraces his Jewish heritage and as someone with a Jewish father he had a right to make aliyah and get Israeli citizenship. His description of himself as a Catholic Jew rings true to me.

      • echinococcus
        November 28, 2016, 2:36 am

        Michael again (and again…)

        I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish

        Bullshit. The first statement has entirely canceled the second.

        I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality.

        You stated total nonsense.

        What ethnicity? Eskenazi, maghrebi Arab, mashriki Arab, Falasha, Bukhari, Sefardí, urban European common-French or common-German, Roman, Piedmontese-Catalan, Byzantine…

        No common language (except liturgical), no common customs or traditions or food or anything –nothing that is not directly religious!

        Come with one single, not directly religious-liturgical element common to all so-called nominal Jewish. Or stop polluting the air, because no common culture equals no common ethnicity. Period. As for “nationality”, practically everybody has one or more and again some of these may be of the particularly ex-Jewish or totally un-Jewish varieties listed above, or more, but each of them particular. None that can be called Jewish and is shared by the rest.

        No amount of writing in Aramaic letters or insulting people for using their logic while being Goy will get you out of that rathole.

        I know your nonsense has a lot of sympathy from the identity-politic-saturated “liberal” Americans. That doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the face of simple logic, though.

      • eljay
        November 28, 2016, 8:12 am

        || Mikhael: … My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish. … ||

        That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact that Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity.

        || … It defines Jewish status based on ancestry … ||

        Yup, the ancestor being someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        || … You’re a goy … ||

        I’m a goy, I’m a goy
        but my ma won’t admit it
        I’m a goy, I’m a goy
        But if I say I am I get it!

        (with apologies to The Who)

        || … If you had read carefully what I wrote … I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality. … ||

        OK, so Jewish Muslims and Jewish Christians are not an issue.

        || … However, functionally speaking if a Jew adopts a creed that demands that he abnegate the Jewish aspect of his/her identity then the Jewish identity will disappear in that person’s family. … ||

        It can’t, since the person and his descendants will continue to be culturally and nationally Jewish…unless by some mechanism those non-religious identities are stripped from them. So, please do tell this ADD-afflicted goy by what mechanisms are those non-religious identities stripped from them.

      • eljay
        November 28, 2016, 9:56 am

        || eljay: … OK, so Jewish Muslims and Jewish Christians are not an issue. … ||

        Given (the Zio-supremacist assertion) that Jewish is like any other nationality, Muslim Jews and Christian Jews should not be an issue, either.

        So there’s no reason not to grant Jewish nationality to all non-Jewish citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”. Repatriating all of “Jewish State’s” refugees would no longer result in a “demographic threat” since they would all be Jewish.

        What’s not to love? C’mon, Mike, embrace your new Jewish compatriots and welcome them home. :-)

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 12:38 pm

        “Michael again (and again…)”

        And again, and again…. Who can save the Daughters of Zion from being harangued into a decline?

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 3:38 pm

        echinococcus November 28, 2016, 2:36 am
        Michael again (and again…)

        I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish

        Bullshit. The first statement has entirely canceled the second.

        You’re wrong. I disavow any belief in a Sinaitic revelation, or any omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent deity that has any agency in human affairs. I’m just a run-of-the-mill secular and agnostic Jew.

        I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality.

        You stated total nonsense.

        There have been many famous believers in Jesuscult who continued to identify with the Jewish People, Jean-Marie Lustiger, for instance. Nevertheless, throughout history there were many more Jews who adopted Jesuscult whose relations with Jews remained more fraught, e.g., the aforementioned Pfefferkorn and Pablo Christiani.

        What ethnicity? Eskenazi,

        It’s actually correctly transliterated in Roman characters as “Ashkenazi” The letter is ‘alef (אַ) with a pataḥ underneath it indicating a vowel comparable to “car” (but shorter) and a “shin”(שׁ), indicating the “š” phoneme (as in English “shoot”). While “Eskenazi” is a common variant surname spelling among some (mostly Balkan Sefaradim), those with decent knowledge of Hebrew, the national language of the Jews, wouldn’t use this transliteration in reference to this segment of the Jewish People known as Ashkenazim.

        maghrebi Arab,mashriki Arab,

        I’m not sure why you are bringing up Arabs, whether of North African, Levantine or other origins. Jews by definition are not Arabs, so how exactly is that pertinent?

        Falasha, Bukhari, Sefardí, urban European common-French or common-German, Roman, Piedmontese-Catalan, Byzantine…

        “Falasha” is a pejorative epithet used by Ethiopian Christians to refer to the Beita Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia. Bukhori Jews are an offshoot of Persian-speaking Jewry, who trace their origins to Ereṣ Yisra’el along with the other major Jewish groups. I have to correct your bad transliteration again, though. If you are going to be pedantic about accentuating the ultimate vowel in “Sefaradi”, you need to know that there are four syllables. It’s correctly transliterated Sefaradi, not “Sefardí” in English (if we were conducting this discussion en Castellano, maybe it would be correct to transliterate it as you do). Another hilarious misnomer is your reference to “Byzantines” in regard to the Jewish community that existed in the Byzantine Empire. The Jews who lived in the Byzantine Empire were a persecuted minority group and wouldn’t have identified themselves (nor been identified by non-Jews), as part of a Byzantine “ethnos” and didn’t have loyalty to the Byzantine state. Their descendants survived into the 20th century as Romaniote Jews, and most of them shared the same fate as their close kin, Sefaradi and Ashkenazi Jews, in the Nazi death camps.

        No common language (except liturgical), no common customs or traditions or food or anything –nothing that is not directly religious!

        Hebrew is the common national (and ancestral!) language of the Jews. Dispersal in various corners of the globe for 2,000 years will lead to cultural diversity with regards to things like cuisine. By your logic, the Chinese can’t claim a common collective national or ethnic identity, they really no have common language except to the extent that a central government forces them to adopt a specific dialect of Mandarin as a standard, the cuisine in various regions is extremely divergent, and when it comes to the Chinese Diaspora, even more so.

        Come with one single, not directly religious-liturgical element common to all so-called nominal Jewish. Or stop polluting the air, because no common culture equals no common ethnicity. Period.

        To the extent that any group’s conception of itself as a distinct people is objective, Jewish ethnic and national identity is an objective fact. You can assail and pick apart any population that calls itself a nation and find aspects that seemingly contradicts its perception of itself as a nation . There are fewer culturally unifying elements knitting all the groups who identify as Chinese into one nation than the Jews have. Jews (whether they believe in or observe any of the varieties of beliefs or ritual that have come to be known as “Judaism” in English) share common ancestry and have a common ancestral land. Religion was the vehicle for preserving Jewish national identity in the Diaspora. For those Jews who cling to religion specifically in its rabbinical form, it’s the most (and for some, only) relevant thing. For Jews like me, with no belief in God (because belief in the “god” of Rabbinic Judaism is not necessary for one to be a Jew), the corpus of the Torah she bi’khtav and the Torah she’Ba’al Peh is a repository of literature, folklore and philosophy of my nation. I am very fortunate to have Hebrew, the national language of the Jews as my native language (even though I was born in the Diaspora), and its rhythms, its humor and poetry are intrinsically part of my being. I’m very happy that my twin daughters in Israel knew no other language for their first 9 years. Of course, those who are not ignoramuses are aware that there is a long tradition of secular Hebrew Iiterature in the Diaspora and it was never merely a liturgical language, as you assert.

        No amount of writing in Aramaic letters or insulting people for using their logic while being Goy will get you out of that rathole

        There’s nothing insulting in calling someone a non-Jew a “goy”. That’s not his fault, nor is it a defect. And goyyim and Jews (like you) alike can always benefit by having their limitations and defects pointed out so that they may improve themselves.

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 5:14 pm

        eljay November 28, 2016, 9:56 am
        || eljay: … OK, so Jewish Muslims and Jewish Christians are not an issue. … ||

        Given (the Zio-supremacist assertion) that Jewish is like any other nationality, Muslim Jews and Christian Jews should not be an issue, either.

        There’s no such thing as a “Zio-supremacist”, but Zionist theory in and of itself doesn’t exclude Jews who adopt non-Jewish religions like Jesuscult or Islam from being part of the Jewish nation.

        So there’s no reason not to grant Jewish nationality to all non-Jewish citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”.

        I think that the non-Jewish citizens of Israel, most of whom identify as Arab and proudly cherish their own Arab nationality (and other non-Jewish and non-Arab Israeli citizens), would resent being characterized as “Jewish” and having a Jewish identity foisted on them. However, as I’ve noted before, the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them. For most of the history of the Jews, “Israeli” , “Jew” and Hebrew” were essentially synonymous and interchangeable words. So granting status of “Israeli citizen” to a non-Jew is functionally equivalent to including them in a civic conception of Jewishness.

        immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”

        “Immigrants to” the Jewish state are by and large of Jewish nationality or ancestry already, or married to such people. Non-Jewish legal immigrants to Israel who become naturalized Israeli citizens can share in the civic Israeli conception of Jewishness. “Expats from” the Jewish state (Jewish or non-Jewish) implies that they already have Israeli citizenship, hold an Israeli passport and identity document and have the legal right to travel back and forth and establish residence as they please. I am technically an “expat from” Israel, as were my parents. “Refugees from” the Jewish state don’t exist. Israeli citizens don’t need to become a refugee from Israel and seek asylum in another state

        Repatriating all of “Jewish State’s” refugees would no longer result in a “demographic threat” since they would all be Jewish

        “Repatriation” implies citizenship in the country which one is an expatriate from. Israeli citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish, already have a right to repatriation in Israel, as I stated above (ergo, my late father, who after decades of legal residence in the US gave up his green card and went back to Jerusalem). Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of.

        What’s not to love? C’mon, Mike, embrace your new Jewish compatriots and welcome them home. :-)

        I already welcome Jews who wish to take advantage of their legal and moral right to obtain citizenship in Israel and move there and I also am happy when Israeli citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish, repatriate themselves to Israel, as is their legal right do so. Here’s a great story about a young Israeli citizen, a non-Jew, born and raised abroad, who took advantage of his legal right to be repatriated to Israel, so that he could serve in the IDF, just as I did when I was a younger man. Enjoy!

        https://www.idfblog.com/2012/02/07/family-firsts-meet-first-ever-druze-lone-soldier/

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 6:16 pm

        “There’s nothing insulting in calling someone a non-Jew a “goy”. That’s not his fault, nor is it a defect. And goyyim and Jews (like you) alike can always benefit by having their limitations and defects pointed out so that they may improve themselves”

        “Mikhael” believe me, they understand, they understand. Now you are just piling it on.
        Okay, we get it, ignorant but didactic, with emotional bullying always in the offing. No wonder the Purity Patrol has such a hard time keepin ’em down on the kibbutz.

      • eljay
        November 28, 2016, 9:07 pm

        || Mikhael: There’s no such thing as a “Zio-supremacist” … ||

        Sure there is. You are one.

        The rest of your post is just one massively verbose dodge. I guess it’s too much to ask that you bullshit more concisely?

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 9:52 pm

        eljay November 28, 2016, 8:12 am
        || Mikhael: … My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish. … ||

        That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact that Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity

        It’s only “religion-based” for people who believe in or practice the religion. For others, it’s more cultural and tribal than cultic.

        || … It defines Jewish status based on ancestry … ||

        Yup, the ancestor being someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        Well, while it is highly likely that most Jews have some Diaspora ancestors who underwent a religious conversion to what later became known as Judaism, most Jews (excepting very recent converts) also have ancestors who were Jews (or Israelite, or Hebrews, take your pick) before the diverse belief systems, rituals and practices now called “Judaism” in English ever developed. Jews were so called not because they practiced any “religion” called Judaism, but because they traced descent to a tribe called Judah, originally part of a tribal confederacy, and later an eponymous kingdom. When the Kingdom of Judah existed, its state religion would have been unrecognizable as the “Judaism” that exists today and many other cults were practiced by the Jews (and the Israelites) until they were purged (e.g., that of Baal and Asherah). There were in the ancient past “Yehudim” (the word in Hebrew for a “Jew” and someone from the tribe of “Yehuda” (Judah) and/or the Kingdom of Judah (Yehuda). For a very long period, these Jews were not monotheists and worshiped the same idols as their Canaanite neighbors. They were, nevertheless, Jews, and their conversion to Judaic/Israelite monotheism is not what made them Jews. Most Jews alive today are Jews because they trace their ancestry to these tribal people living in the ancient Land of Israel.

        || … You’re a goy … ||

        I’m a goy, I’m a goy
        but my ma won’t admit it

        It happens in the best of families. That’s the least of your problems.

        || … However, functionally speaking if a Jew adopts a creed that demands that he abnegate the Jewish aspect of his/her identity then the Jewish identity will disappear in that person’s family. … ||

        It can’t, since the person and his descendants will continue to be culturally and nationally Jewish…unless by some mechanism those non-religious identities are stripped from them. So, please do tell this ADD-afflicted goy by what mechanisms are those non-religious identities stripped from them.

        If someone adopts a creed or an outlook that demands a renunciation of the culture or nationality they were born into, then they will strip it away from themselves and their descendants. Cultural, ethnic and national identity can be forgotten, denied and erased. This is a well-known pattern and this shouldn’t be hard, even for you, to understand. (Especially as you have stated several times that you no longer identify with the ethnic identity or nationality of your Croat and Italian forebears.) Every free individual has a right to choose whether to embrace or reject his/her ancestral ethnic heritage and I never stated otherwise. I also wrote nothing that could be construed as endorsing a position that Jews in Israel who choose to marry non-Jews and abandon their Jewish identity should be coerced back into the Jewish fold.

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 10:13 pm

        eljay November 28, 2016, 9:07 pm
        || Mikhael: There’s no such thing as a “Zio-supremacist” … ||

        Sure there is. You are one.

        I am a Zionist. There are no indications of any supremacist leanings on my part in evidence.

        The rest of your post is just one massively verbose dodge. I guess it’s too much to ask that you bullshit more concisely?

        I addressed your allegations one at a time, thus there was no dodge. I can’t help it if you can’t keep up, but I hope it’s an incentive for you to practice your reading and thinking skills.

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 10:35 pm

        Raphael November 27, 2016, 10:55 am
        Mikhael

        Thank you for your thoughts about Israeliness the Jewish Identify, and other identities. …
        But, I think of Israel as being more as a theocracy run by the Orthodox, rather then say a ideal liberal democracy with a multicultural twist with all the other religions tolerated. Perhaps on paper Israel is that… but, day to day, while I lived there I did not see it

        I’m afraid that Israel has the potential to become a theocracy, and that’s an existential threat, in my opinion. But a theocracy is run by a clerical class that enforces religious law as civil law, so while religious factions in Israel have major influence on how the society is run (as they do in other democratic liberal countries, like Greece (where different religious confessions have to be legally authorized) or Ireland (where due to Church influence abortion is still illegal in 2016, in an EU member state), Israel still strictly speaking can’t be called a theocracy. Where did you live in Israel, if I may ask? If you lived in an Orthodox area, your perception would be influenced by those norms. Everybody is in their own bubble. Another friend of mine was telling me recently how secular Israeli society seemed to him on a recent visit.

        I think most of Trump voters want that theocratic traditional (orthodox Judaism, the magical Jerusalem) Old World political process as a part of the American Dream. They hope that Trump will bring them this during his time in office, as well as jobs in a theocratic religious democracy; that is more Old Testament in thought then New Testament. That is why the far right in Israel likes Trump

        Also Orthodox American Jews, and -Jewish immigrants to the USA from the former USSR who are on the whole extremely secular) were solidly pro-Trump. I think the ex-Sovs were drawn to his bombast and strongman facade, as well as his tough talk on Iran and for Israel, and Orthodox Jews as well.

        For example, I was able to predict that Trump would easily win… though I voted for Clinton I knew she was not going to win. Most voters in time of fear I’m sure as most voters know vote Republican, conservative or traditional (orthodox).

        All my Orthodox friends and family told me he would win and I thought they were in a delusional bubble. Oh well. I didn’t vote anyway. I wish I bet on him though because I could have made some money with the Vegas oddmakers.

        I’m guessing that the Germans that immigrated to the rust belt were of the protestant form of Germaneness… so that the way I interpret it is that people in the rust belt did not vote for Trump to only give them their Middle Class jobs back… but to bring about a change to bring America to the far right. So far right where it is also regression to Old World German values.

        I thought a lot of them were pretty Left in their politics back in the day… Debs supporters and such in Wisconsin; no?

        There are no Jewish Catholics parish communities in the Catholic Church. They have Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, and Russian Catholic; but basically Jews within the Catholic Church are and invisible presence

        Well, most Jews who convert to Catholicism do so for marriage, and a few odd spiritual seekers, like Stephen Dubner’s parents. Did you ever read his memoir?
        There is a Hebrew Catholic community in Israel, though. Did yuou have any contatct with them?

        http://forward.com/news/104859/hebrew-catholics-follow-their-own-church/

        Even after Vatican II things have not changed much from the times before Vatican II in wanting to change the theology in which Christianity is more open to Jewishness. It is on paper… but not, day to day, more open to the modern world.

        Well, why should it be?

      • RoHa
        November 28, 2016, 11:10 pm

        “Hebrew is the common national (and ancestral!) language of the Jews. ”

        How can it be a common language when most Jews did not speak it? Modern Hebrew had to be constructed and then imposed on the migrants to Palestine.

        ” By your logic, the Chinese can’t claim a common collective national or ethnic identity, they really no have common language except to the extent that a central government forces them to adopt a specific dialect of Mandarin as a standard, the cuisine in various regions is extremely divergent, and when it comes to the Chinese Diaspora, even more so.

        And so? Why can’t the Chinese be as deluded as you are?

        If they wish to claim a common “identity”, it has to be on the basis of citizenship in the Chinese p-nation, or descent from people with such citizenship.

      • eljay
        November 29, 2016, 8:55 am

        || Mikhael: I am a Zionist. There are no indications of any supremacist leanings on my part in evidence. … ||

        You’re funny.  :-)  You believe in, advocate and defend Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. You’re a Zio-supremacist.

        || … I addressed your allegations one at a time, thus there was no dodge. … ||

        You didn’t address my “allegations” – you drowned them, as you always do, in a deluge of verbosity.

        || … I can’t help it if you can’t keep up … ||

        Hey, there’s only so much an ADD-afflicted goy can do.  :-(

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 9:21 am

        Poor poor Mikhael’s cup of Ziopoop runneth over

        ” I think that the non-Jewish citizens of Israel, most of whom identify as Arab and proudly cherish their own Arab nationality (and other non-Jewish and non-Arab Israeli citizens), would resent being characterized as “Jewish” and having a Jewish identity foisted on them. However, as I’ve noted before, the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them.”

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/

        Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote

        ” I am technically an “expat from” Israel, as were my parents”

        But you were born in the US. So you’re spouting crap

        ““Repatriation” implies citizenship in the country which one is an expatriate from. Israeli citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish, already have a right to repatriation in Israel”

        Bullsh*t! Israel does not allow the return of non-Jewish Israelis dispossessed in 1948

        “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

        Except in Israel which extends the right to Jews no matter what their country of origin or citizenship

        “I already welcome Jews who wish to take advantage of their legal and moral right to obtain citizenship in Israel and move there”

        except those who don’t meet with your Naziesque approval

        “Here’s a great story about a young Israeli citizen, a non-Jew, born and raised abroad, who took advantage of his legal right to be repatriated to Israel”

        Uh huh.
        A) If he was born abroad he wasn’t Israeli.
        B) The article says NOTHING about him being Israeli
        C) BTW This yours?

        “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

        You’re full of sh*te

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 9:52 am

        Poor poor Mikhael
        “I am a Zionist. There are no indications of any supremacist leanings on my part in evidence.”

        The Zionist Federation decided in 1897 to start a financial pyramid scheme preying on poorer Jewish folk. In order for the scheme to work it was necessary to dispossess the Palestinians from their land.

        Zionism by its very nature is supremacist

        ” I can’t help it if you can’t keep up, but I hope it’s an incentive for you to practice your reading and thinking skill”

        Says the self confessed non supremacist

      • Raphael
        November 29, 2016, 11:30 am

        Mikhael

        I lived in Netanya. Yes, it was a Orthodox Jewish community that took me under their wing, which I’m most grateful.

        Most of my Jewish ancestors that were a of any interest to me, where Orthodox Jews. My grandfather on my Jewish side… though he was Orthodox wrote me in his Will, even though I was a goy Israelite.

        And, he knew I was a goy Israelite when he wrote me in his Will.

        So, I was curious how he had prayed, and lived, day to day, in his community as a millionaire. My great grandfather was the president of a Orthodox synagogue, in the US.

        I was aware that I was in a bubble. I was, also for a time living in the Russian area of Netanya, that sometimes scared me.. the toughness of their character, like I was talking to Soviet bureaucrats.

        But, I seen that when they were drunk mostly. When they are sober; I think they a have a less bullying attitude.

        But, I think they want to shed that part of their personality, perhaps. Those that want that attitude; probably like Trump, and probably don’t ever want too change.

        My mother dated a big union guy back in the day. He was the president of the AFL-CIO of New York State. He gave my uncle a job building one the the bridges in NYC; but I don’t think he ever joined the union. Corbett, was a Irish tough guy from what my mother told me of him. Getting into fights in bars often. But he was also in charge of all the money for the union in that state. I can guess that he took on a sort of banker attitude, and Rockefeller probably played upon his greed to corrupt union policies. I’m guessing though because I was never a member of the union.

        I think many of them were trust fund babies like Rockefeller, and they (the Dems) got caught up in worshiping the golden calf thing, with the extra money that got working in the factories.

        They were probably drunk the night before, and drinking in bars rather then taking the time even look into the character of Trump. On election day as they voted,imagining with a hang over, a tough guy John Wayne type to ride in on a horse, and save America, in Rust belt America.

        No, they were more far right back in the day. The union guys use to physically attack the anti-Vietnam war protestors in the 60s that were to the left.

        The Hebrew Catholics in Israel are more like a arm of the church in Israel; from Rome. The local communities were not Hebrew Catholic. They are communities of poor workers, like Filipino and Indian Catholics, each within separate communities,and cultures (tribes) living throughout Israel.

        I did not yet read about Stephen Dubner.

        I would love to move back to Israel. I certainly like it better then the US. But, the cost of living is so high there.

      • Sibiriak
        November 29, 2016, 12:20 pm

        talknic: [quoting from Times of Israel :] Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry […]

        —————-

        Mikhael refers to citizenship — “the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them–while your quote refers to nationality , so there is no necessary contradiction.

        The problem remains that within Israel there is discrimination based on nationality (as defined in Israeli law).

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 3:04 pm

        “Mikhael” and “Rafael” you two have brought this thread alive!

        I must say, whereas before I was aware of the issues, now I really feel for the Israeli women in the article. No one can read this thread without sympathizing with them.

      • Mikhael
        December 1, 2016, 7:43 am

        talknic November 29, 2016, 9:21 am
        Poor poor Mikhael’s cup of Ziopoop runneth over

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/

        Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote

        You’re still demonstrating that you don’t understand what you read. Try reading again what I wrote:
        “However, as I’ve noted before, the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them.” Not “nationality,” but “citizen.” And it’s the best solution, really.

        ” I am technically an “expat from” Israel, as were my parents”

        But you were born in the US. So you’re spouting crap

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
        An expatriate (often shortened to expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing, as an immigrant, in a country other than that of their citizenship

        According to this definition, since I’m temporarily residing in a country other than Israel, where I hold citizenship, I’m an expat. Although I also happen to have US citizenship, from the perspective of Israeli law I am simply an Israeli citizen residing abroad, and thus I am an expat from Israel.

        ““Repatriation” implies citizenship in the country which one is an expatriate from. Israeli citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish, already have a right to repatriation in Israel”

        Bullsh*t! Israel does not allow the return of non-Jewish Israelis dispossessed in 1948

        There were no citizens of Israel, Jewish or non-Jewish, who were ever dispossessed 1948. The Arabs who fled during Israel’s independence war (mostly of them on their own accord) never were Israeli citizens. This is where you, as the predictable wind-up toy that you are, will link to the Israel’s Declaration of Independence and make the ludicrous assertion that the clause “appeal[ing]” to “Arab inhabitants” to “participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship” is a legal instrument that granted Israeli citizenship to the Arab inhabitants who rejected that appeal. Again, for the edification of your very muddled mind, the legal instrument that governs who and who is not an Israeli citizen is “Hok haEzrahut”, not the Declaration of Independence . Go read it, it’s all written in very plain Hebrew.

        https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA

        “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

        Except in Israel which extends the right to Jews no matter what their country of origin or citizenship

        No. Jews from abroad who are not citizens of Israel have the right to immigrate to Israel (not “repatriate”) and after being found eligible, receive Israeli citizenship. If they move abroad subsequent to obtaining Israeli citizenship, then they are Israeli expats, and have the right to repatriation to Israel, where they hold citizenship. Non-citizens cannot “repatriate” to a country that they are not a citizen of.

        “I already welcome Jews who wish to take advantage of their legal and moral right to obtain citizenship in Israel and move there”

        except those who don’t meet with your Naziesque approval

        Godwin’s Law, loser.

        “Here’s a great story about a young Israeli citizen, a non-Jew, born and raised abroad, who took advantage of his legal right to be repatriated to Israel”

        Uh huh.
        A) If he was born abroad he wasn’t Israeli.
        B) The article says NOTHING about him being Israeli

        Again, Israeli law grants Israeli citizenship automatically to the 1st-generation foreign-born children of Israeli citizens. The article discusses someone who’s the son of Israeli Druze expatriates (meaning citizens) who moved to Brazil. Israeli law deemed him an Israeli citizen automatically by birth, with no need to “immigrate” to Israel. Again, go read the relevant Israeli statutes in plain simple-to-understand Hebrew, that I have linked to twice already.

        C) BTW This yours?
        “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

        Yup. Non-Israeli citizens don’t have a right to repatriation to a state that they never were citizens of, just as non-Australian citizens can’t be repatriated to Australia. The young man in question, IDF Private Fadi Abd Elhak is an Israeli citizen, born to Israeli citizen parents in Brazil. he had a right to repatriate Israel, where by law, he was considered a citizen from his birth according to black letter Israeli law, a right he took advantage of in order to do his duty as a soldier. Here is another fine example of a non-Jew born outside Israel who took advantage of her right to repatriate to Israel, using her birthright Israeli citizenship obtained through descent from her Israeli citizen father.
        I am referring to ISM founder Huweida ‘Arraf, born in Detroit, Michigan, USA to a father who was an Arab citizen of Israel at the time of her birth:

        Huwaida Arraf is a Palestinian lawyer with American and Israeli citizenship.
        https://palsolidarity.org/2011/07/humanity-has-no-nationality-%D9%87%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%81/father who had

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huwaida_Arraf

        Arraf was born to two Palestinian parents – her mother from the West Bank town of Beit Sahour and her father from the village of Mi’ilya, in the Galilee…. Under Israeli law, she has Israeli citizenship through her father, an Arab citizen of Israel.

      • Mikhael
        December 1, 2016, 8:07 am

        Sibiriak November 29, 2016, 12:20 pm

        Mikhael refers to citizenship — “the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them–while your quote refers to nationality , so there is no necessary contradiction.

        The problem remains that within Israel there is discrimination based on nationality (as defined in Israeli law).

        That’s an unsubstantiated allegation. There’s no legal discrimination against Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality. Which is to say that there is no right under Israeli law that Israeli citizens designated of Jewish “le’om” have that is denied to Israeli citizens of non-Jewish “le’om”. There is, of course unofficial discrimination, but I am not sure that calling re-designating every citizen (“ezraḤ”) as of Israel as having Israeli nationality would solve the problem of unofficial discrimination. However, Israeli citizens who feel that they are discriminated for any reason have recourse to redress these issues, through many venues including the court system. There are anti-discrimination laws in effect.

      • talknic
        December 1, 2016, 8:59 am

        @ Sibiriak November 29, 2016, 12:20 pm

        “Mikhael refers to citizenship — “the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them–while your quote refers to nationality , so there is no necessary contradiction.”

        1st line of the article

        Supreme Court rejects ‘Israeli’ nationality status
        Allowing citizens to relinquish ethnic or religious identity in the population registry would undermine Israel’s Jewishness, ruling says …
        … The ruling was a response to a demand by 21 Israelis, most of whom are officially registered as Jews, that the court decide whether they can be listed as Israeli in the registry. http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/

      • talknic
        December 1, 2016, 11:01 am

        Poor poor verbose Mikhael December 1, 2016, 7:43 am

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/ 1st line (my emphasis throughout)

        Supreme Court rejects ‘Israeli’ nationality status

        Allowing CITIZENS to relinquish ethnic or religious identity in the population registry would undermine Israel’s Jewishness, ruling says …

        … The ruling was a response to a demand by 21 ISRAELIS

        “You’re still demonstrating that you don’t understand what you read.”

        Save it pal, you’re cathole is deep enough

        My emphasis on your Wikipedia citation
        “An expatriate (often shortened to expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing, AS AN IMMIGRANT, in a country OTHER THAN THAT OF OF THEIR CITIZENSHIP

        “According to this definition, since I’m temporarily residing in a country other than Israel, where I hold citizenship, I’m an expat. “

        The definition you want to use says AS AN IMMIGRANT, in a country OTHER THAN THAT OF OF THEIR CITIZENSHIP

        “There were no citizens of Israel, Jewish or non-Jewish, who were ever dispossessed 1948. The Arabs who fled during Israel’s independence war (mostly of them on their own accord) never were Israeli citizens. This is where you, as the predictable wind-up toy that you are, will link to the Israel’s Declaration of Independence and make the ludicrous assertion that the clause “appeal[ing]” to “Arab inhabitants” to “participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship” is a legal instrument that granted Israeli citizenship to the Arab inhabitants who rejected that appeal.”

        A) All civilians, no matter what their citizenship, had and still have, a right to flee the violence of war and return to their normal place of residencee, no matter who starts a war for the simple reason that they’re civilians. UNGA res 194 is based on International Law, it was accepted by Israel as part of its entry into the UN

        B) What is it about “on the basis of full and equal CITIZENSHIP” that you don’t understand?

        ” Again, for the edification of your very muddled mind, the legal instrument that governs who and who is not an Israeli citizen is “Hok haEzrahut””

        The formal status of Palestinian citizens of Israel was adopted only in 1980 with the 4th Amendment to the Citizenship Law.

        Until that time, Israel was declared in accordance with UNGA res 181 ( On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm )

        UNGA res 181 November, 1947
        Chapter 3

        Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations

        1. Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights. Persons over the age of eighteen years may opt, within one year from the date of recognition of independence of the State in which they reside, for citizenship of the other State, providing that no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State.

        Rabbi Silver informed the UN that UNGA res 181 was binding and not dependent on being accepted by both parties. In full @ http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx

        “Arraf was born to two Palestinian parents – her mother from the West Bank town of Beit Sahour and her father from the village of Mi’ilya, in the Galilee…. Under Israeli law, she has Israeli citizenship through her father, an Arab citizen of Israel.”

        MI’ILYA is in territory acquired by war. I.e., not Israeli by any legal agreement.

        On the matter of Israeli citizenship and repatriation, I’ll accept your opinions

      • talknic
        December 1, 2016, 11:33 am

        Mmmm. I might retract my last statement

        Citizenship Act (1952) establishes six ways of acquiring citizenship: 1.On the basis of the right of return of Jews to their homeland The Law of Return (1950) states that every Jew has the right to be repatriated to their home country (Article 1), the repatriation will be issued on the basis of immigrant visas “ashrat ole.” http://www.attorneyinisrael.com/israeli-visas-and-israeli-citizenship/israeli-citizenship/

      • talknic
        December 1, 2016, 1:30 pm

        Poor poor Mikhael December 1, 2016, 7:43 am

        “Godwin’s Law, loser.”

        Isn’t actually a law. Your comment though “You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)” is quite Naziesque

        “Again, Israeli law grants Israeli citizenship automatically to the 1st-generation foreign-born children of Israeli citizens.”

        Only if the birth is registered.

        ” IDF Private Fadi Abd Elhak is an Israeli citizen, born to Israeli citizen parents in Brazil. he had a right to repatriate Israel,”

        Only if the birth is registered

        ” … he was considered a citizen from his birth according to black letter Israeli law”

        Only if the birth is registered

        ” a right he took advantage of in order to do his duty as a soldier.”

        One can volunteer without being an Israeli citizen https://www.idfblog.com/about-the-idf/volunteer-programs/

        BTW he wasn’t a lone soldier, his grandfather is a reservist

      • eljay
        December 1, 2016, 1:34 pm

        … Israel Citizenship law of 1952 – it is the law that establishes the requirements for obtaining citizenship in the State of Israel. Since the state is defined as a state of the Jewish people, one of the stated goals of the state is to protect the Jewish majority in the country. …

        This paragraph defines Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews, rather than as a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        … Citizenship Act (1952) establishes six ways of acquiring citizenship: 1.On the basis of the right of return of Jews to their homeland The Law of Return (1950) states that every Jew has the right to be repatriated to their home country …

        This paragraph anti-Semitically states that Israel is the only true homeland / home country of people all over the world who have chosen to be Jewish.

        Interesting.

      • talknic
        December 1, 2016, 1:58 pm

        Poor poor Mikhael December 1, 2016, 8:07 am

        “There’s no legal discrimination against Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality. Which is to say that there is no right under Israeli law that Israeli citizens designated of Jewish “le’om” have that is denied to Israeli citizens of non-Jewish “le’om”.”

        Non-Jewish Israelis dispossessed in Israel’s wars are not allowed RoR

        Non-Jewish Palestinian Israelis cannot marry a civilian from the occupied territories and co-inhabit in Israel. Jewish Israelis can and; they can illegally live in non-Israeli territories under occupation

        Non-Jewish Palestinian Israelis can be slaughtered, even by armed Israeli civilians, without trial

      • Sibiriak
        December 1, 2016, 5:15 pm

        @talknic:

        Mikhael wrote:

        “the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to [the non-Jewish citizens of Israel]…” [emphasis added]

        You attempted to contradict that by pointing to the fact that there is no Israeli nationality

        Supreme Court rejects ‘Israeli’ nationality status
        http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/

        However, nationality status is not the same as citizenship status. Under Israeli law, there is Israeli citizenship, but there is no Israeli nationality,

        So, Mikhael is absolutely correct when he says all citizens of Israel, Jewish and non-Jewish, are designated as Israeli citizens.

        Do you not agree?

      • Sibiriak
        December 1, 2016, 5:28 pm

        Mikhael: I am not sure that calling re-designating every citizen (“ezraḤ”) as of Israel as having Israeli nationality would solve the problem of unofficial discrimination.
        ————–

        I never advocated that. (Perhaps talknic does, but I speak only for myself).

        I agreed with you that Israel designates all citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, as Israeli citizens.

        I have no problem with a multi-national states, so long as national minorities have all their rights protected.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2016, 6:29 pm

        “I have no problem with a multi-national states, so long as national minorities have all their rights protected.”

        If “minorities” have all their rights protected, why do they even need to be called out as minorities? They are just citizens. The very act of dividing a country up into “nationalities” (as determined by who?) violates human and democratic rights.

  2. Mooser
    November 15, 2016, 2:37 pm

    “They can’t see what they are doing” says one of the leaders of a vigilante patrol group named Fire for Judaism, which works closely with the police and is funded by private donations.”

    Oh my lord, vigilante yentas. You know, if they carry a wireless laptop, they could hook the girls up with J-date right then and there.

    • eljay
      November 15, 2016, 2:57 pm

      || Mooser … You know, if they carry a wireless laptop … ||

      You may not be aware of this, Moose Van Winkle (Rip Van Mooskle?), but smartphones are today’s “wireless laptops”.  ;-)  :-D

      • Mooser
        November 15, 2016, 3:10 pm

        Yes, but won’t the eligible young men look better on a larger screen? That’s all I was thinking of. Or mount a big flat-screen in the Purity Patrol van. Coupla speakers outside booming “Matchmaker, matchmaker”

      • eljay
        November 15, 2016, 3:20 pm

        You make a good point (as usual).  :-)

      • Mooser
        November 15, 2016, 4:11 pm

        And I am up-to-date technologically, finally. When comments didn’t work for a couple weeks I got tired of waiting for Mondo to fix it and bought a badly needed new computer (my first new off-the-shelf computer ever!) Runs at 16 giggles and has one terrapin hard-shell. Fixed comments inside of 72 hours.

        Besides, comments broke almost the very day when I went from DSL to a wired internet connection, so it was sorta my obligation. Hope everything is working fine now.

      • Sibiriak
        December 1, 2016, 11:28 pm

        Mooser: If “minorities” have all their rights protected, why do they even need to be called out as minorities?
        ————-

        Please note: I am NOT defending Israel’s nationality laws or its treatment of national minorities. I only stated that “I have no problem with a multi-national states, so long as national minorities have all their rights protected .

        National minorities don’t “need to be called out”, I agree. But on the other hand, freedom of association and the right of self-determination mean that national groups within a state should not be forced to give up their national identities.

        The Russian Federation, for example, is a multi-national state, descended from the multi-national Soviet Union. Within the Russian Federation. Russians, Tatars, Chechens etc. are considered to be separate “peoples” or “nationalities” . In general, the rights of national minorities are protected by law.

        One Russian word for “Russians” —русские–applies only to members of the Russian ethno-cultural group. A different Russian word for “Russians”– россиянин–applies to all citizens of the Russian Federation, including those who are not members of the Russian ethno-cultural group. So, two words: one for Russian “nationality”; one for Russian citizenship.

        Russia is a huge “imperial” country built historically around its Russian core, but including many non-Russian-speaking peoples. Under the communist regime, with its avowed ideological commitment to the right of peoples to national self-determination , the former Russian Empire was reconstructed as the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics, with the full formal structure of a multinational state . The constituent national republics were regarded as having entered the Union voluntarily and enjoyed a formal right of secession. Russia, which comprised most of the Union’s territory (and itself included autonomous national republics for minority peoples), was, formally, merely one of the fifteen republics.

        * * *

        In post-Soviet Russia, the explicit acknowledgment of minority groups as “nationalities” could not be withheld , if only because this would have meant denying those groups something that was acknowledged under the communist regime.

        The distinct identity of the minority peoples is respected and their identification with the state is encouraged, but the state itself is unambiguously (though not exclusively) identified with the language, culture, and history of the Russian-speaking majority.

        The 1993 constitution speaks in the name of “we, the multinational people of the Russian Federation.” The unity of the state is guaranteed. Russian is the state language throughout the territory of Russia, while “republics” (of minority peoples) have a right to institute their own state languages (Article 68).

        * * *

        The “multinational people of Russia,” whose common state language is Russian, may in many ways be compared with the “Spanish nation,” with its constituent (minority) nationalities.

        Azar GatYakobso, “Nations ” (p. 359). Cambridge University Press [emphasis added]

        ————————————–

        [Mooser:] the very act of dividing a country up into “nationalities” (as determined by who?)

        It must be done by the people themselves, through freedom of association and self-determination.

        For example: Kurds in Turkey, Tibetans in China, Basques in Spain, indigenous peoples in North and South America, and so on an so forth.

        Arab Palestinian citizens of Israel

        Ilan Pappe writes:

        So the first part of any history of the Palestinians in Israel is a chapter about discrimination and dispossession. But it is also a story of self-assertiveness and steadfastness. Arnon Soffer of Haifa University, one of the leading professors in Israel who preaches against the demographic danger of the Arabs in Israel, states, ‘According to the predictions the Jews will be only 70 per cent of the population; this is a very awful picture.’17

        In response, one can only say that if this is indeed true, despite his and many of his fellow Israelis’ ambition to get rid of the Palestinians in Israel, then it is a tribute to the latter’s determination and assertiveness.

        They live – as their theatre, films, novels, poems and media indicate – as a proud national minority, despite being denied basic collective and individual human and civil rights in the self-declared only democracy in the Middle East. [emphasis added] (p. 7).

        * * *

        The Palestinians in Israel form a very important section of the Palestinian people , and of the Palestinian question. Their past struggles, present-day situation, and hopes and fears for the future are intimately linked with those of the wider Palestinian population. (p. 11).

        Ilan Pappe, The Forgotten Palestinians: A History of the Palestinians in Israel

        ————————–

        [Mooser:] The very act of dividing a country up into “nationalities” (as determined by who?) violates human and democratic rights.

        That would be true if the “dividing up” and defining of nationalities is imposed from above against the will of persons involved. I agree with you on that. (So does international law, see below.)

        However, if persons freely associate and self-determine their ethno-cultural groupings, there is no violation of human rights.

        Just the opposite.

        Under international law, groups of individuals in a state can have the legal status of national minorities or indigenous minorities . Citizenship status and national/indigenous minority status are not mutually exclusive.

        See:

        *Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 15:
        Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It

        *UN Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities

        *Council of Europe’s 1995 Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities

        *UN Draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples

        *The Organization of American States’ 1997 draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

        Etc.

        Note: “national minorities” are identified separately from “ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities”

      • MHughes976
        December 2, 2016, 4:08 am

        I don’t know where this might go in the sequence – just wanted to ask Sibi if nationality exists in a morally significant way simply by self-ascription? Am I British, English etc. if and only if I say I am?

      • Sibiriak
        December 2, 2016, 8:16 am

        MHughes976: just wanted to ask Sibi if nationality exists in a morally significant way simply by self-ascription?

        ——————-

        “Simply by self-ascription”? No. And I’ve never seen that claim in any of my reading on the subject.

      • MHughes976
        December 2, 2016, 10:51 am

        So is it a question of my being English if people in general – or people in authority – agree that I am? Or are there objective criteria that I and others should recognise?

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2016, 11:47 am

        “Or are there objective criteria that I and others should recognise?”

        “MHughes976”, you yourself has said it, and it’s greatly to your credit; you are an Englishman!
        Here are some objective standards: An Englishman is a soaring soul, as free as a mountain bird, his energetic fist should be ready to resist a dictatorial word!
        His nose should should pant, and his lip should curl. His cheeks should flame, and his brow should furl, his bosom should heave, and his heart should glow. And his fist be ever ready
        for a knock-down blow!
        And in spite of all your faults, you love your Queen!

      • Sibiriak
        December 2, 2016, 9:05 pm

        MHughes976 : So is it a question of my being English if people in general – or people in authority – agree that I am? Or are there objective criteria that I and others should recognise?
        —————–

        I’ve reviewed a good deal of the literature on nationality, the right of self-determination of peoples, etc. and the predominant view is that a substantial claim requires a combination of objective and subjective elements. Views vary, of course, on the details. Claims are assessed on a case by case basis . It’s all highly contested and politicized.

  3. gamal
    November 15, 2016, 3:37 pm

    “particularly Bedouin, men.”

    we have a website in English for those considering a badawi spouse it is a brief over view, once you go nomad you never go back

    http://www.bedawi.com/Marriage_EN.html

  4. Katie Miranda
    November 15, 2016, 5:54 pm

    The fear of being cock-blocked by an Arab keeps these guys up at night.

    • Marnie
      November 18, 2016, 2:49 am

      Just like their american counterpoints in alt-right and KKK, their european aryan brothers, etc.
      Odd that such insecurity exists in the ‘master’ race.

      What century is this? When will women ever be able to claim sole ownership of their own bodies, every part?

      • Mooser
        November 19, 2016, 12:45 pm

        “When will women ever be able to claim sole ownership of their own bodies, every part?”

        Speaking of owning the parts of one’s body, it has struck me that the obsession with out-marriage increase with the extremity of circumcision.

      • Mikhael
        December 1, 2016, 7:52 am

        Mooser November 29, 2016, 12:59 pm
        “Mikhael” You are simply trying to evade the question posed at 12:45 pm.

        You mean this question? “When will women ever be able to claim sole ownership of their own bodies, every part?

        No evasion. In Israel, the answer is today, yesterday and (hopefully) tomorrow. There’s no law in Israel that outlaws the rights of women to marry whom they please (well, I suppose excepting incest or minors or people deemed to be mentally non-capable) and women have the right to terminate pregnancies in Israel. Women in Israel have more control over their own bodies than they do in the US (where some states place onerous obstacles to abortion, and soon will ban it completely) or Ireland, which already bans abortions

    • Mikhael
      November 24, 2016, 10:05 pm

      Katie Miranda November 15, 2016, 5:54 pm

      The fear of being cock-blocked by an Arab keeps these guys up at night

      A bigger fear for Orthodox Jews who believe in the principle of matrilineal Jewish descent is Jewish males who marry non-Jewish females, because then the issue of such unions are not considered Jewish, but the offspring of a Jewish female and a non-Jewish Arab male is a Jew, to their understanding. That said, religious people in Israel (as elsewhere in the Middle East), Jewish and non-Jewish, are usually are very opposed to any interreligious marriages. However, while Shari’ah law permits Muslim males to marry women from ahl al kitab (e.g., Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians) most religious Muslims are adamant that it is haram for a Muslim female to marry a non-Muslim.

      It is of course a given that Orthodox Jews (as well as devout Muslims and Christians), rarely if ever marry outside their faith community, and when they do, the formerly religious person is either leaving the fold or convinces his/her spouse to join his/her faith community and convert. Although Orthodox Jews are opposed to ALL Jewish and non-Jewish marriages, they nevertheless frequently occur in Israeli-Jewish society — secular Israeli-Jewish men often marry foreign non-Jewish women who they meet abroad or who come to Israel (e.g., Filipinos, Thais, Russians, Scandinavians) and bring them home to mama, sometimes this goes well and sometimes not so well, and secular Israeli-Jewish women often find foreign, non-Jewish husbands and mates. When Muslim-Jewish intermarriages occur in Israel,these unions are almost always between a Muslim man and a Jewish woman and almost never between a Jewish man and a Muslim woman.* The reason has more to do with the taboo in Muslim-Arab society for “their” women marrying outside the faith and the extreme sanctions that can result for a Muslim woman who flouts this taboo (including death via honor killing). I will patiently wait for the Mondoweiss feature that condemns this phenomenon in Muslim-Arab society.

      *There have been two prominent Israeli-Arab Muslim women in recent years who have been involved with Jewish men, the newscaster Lucy Aharish who briefly dated actor Lior Ashkenazi and the documentary filmmaker Ibtisam Mara’ana-Menuhin who married an Israeli Jewish man. Both were subjected to taunts of “sharmouta” (whore) on Arabic-language social media.

      • Mooser
        November 27, 2016, 1:50 pm

        I knew a Jewish man who got married. His wife used to tell him “Must you go on talking about things you know nothing of?”
        But he slapped her a good one, and ran off to see what he could get.
        And what is more, every woman he married, he was intimate with!

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 9:55 pm

        Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:50 pm
        I knew a Jewish man who got married. His wife used to tell him “Must you go on talking about things you know nothing of?”
        But he slapped her a good one, and ran off to see what he could get.
        And what is more, every woman he married, he was intimate with!

        It seems as if you’re trying to say that you’ve physically abused your wife.

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 12:59 pm

        “Mikhael” You are simply trying to evade the question posed at 12:45 pm.

      • eljay
        November 29, 2016, 1:36 pm

        || Mikhael: … A bigger fear for Orthodox Jews who believe in the principle of matrilineal Jewish descent is Jewish males who marry non-Jewish females, because then the issue of such unions are not considered Jewish … ||

        Someone needs to tell these anti-Semitic Orthodox Jews that Jewish is a non-religious ethnicity and a nationality that:
        – Jewish males who marry non-Jewish females can pass on to their “issue”; and
        – Christianity and Islam cannot take from them.

        They may even become open-minded enough to finally make Jewish a bureaucratic nationality that can be granted to all citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”. (This would allow all currently non-Jewish refugees from Israel to return as Jews to what is their actual – and now also their Ancient and Eternal – homeland.)

  5. RoHa
    November 15, 2016, 8:39 pm

    “The Arab guy comes and buys them things, treats them well.”

    Ooooo! Those sneaky, evil, Arabs! Decent men would never do anything like that.

  6. aloeste
    November 16, 2016, 12:59 am

    Thank you for reconfirming that antizionists are ultimately haters of Judaism at their core. What a vile bunch you all are. Velamalshinim al tehi tikva

    • Mooser
      November 16, 2016, 1:04 pm

      “Thank you for reconfirming that antizionists are ultimately haters of Judaism at their core. What a vile bunch you all are. Velamalshinim al tehi tikva”

      Yes, Jewish girls need to be carefully kept from Arab men. What happens if they start making, well, comparisons?

      • Marnie
        November 19, 2016, 3:22 am

        “Yes, Jewish girls need to be carefully kept from Arab men. What happens if they start making, well, comparisons? ”

        That’s obviously already happened!

      • Mooser
        November 19, 2016, 10:44 am

        It’s the poetry. I don’t know that we have anything to compete with that.

    • eljay
      November 16, 2016, 1:19 pm

      || aloeste: Thank you for reconfirming that antizionists are ultimately haters of Judaism at their core. … ||

      Zionism is Judaism. Interesting.

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2016, 1:53 pm

        “Zionism is Judaism”

        Is bullying and threatening women into marrying Jewish men Zionism or Judaism?

      • eljay
        November 16, 2016, 2:38 pm

        || Mooser: Is bullying and threatening women |into marrying Jewish men Zionism or Judaism? ||

        I don’t know. But I’m sure a wise guy person like aloeste will have an answer. And it might even be a “zinger”!

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2016, 3:28 pm

        “I don’t know. But I’m sure a wise guy person like aloeste will have an answer. And it might even be a “zinger”!”

        Oh, I’m sure it will be. Frustration will do that to a person, make them bitter and sarcastic.

      • Talkback
        November 17, 2016, 12:31 pm

        Moser: “Is bullying and threatening women into marrying Jewish men Zionism or Judaism?”

        According to Aloeste it belongs to the core of Judaism and Aloeste considers Jonathan to be a Jewish snitch for writing about it and therefore may be killed.

      • Mooser
        November 17, 2016, 4:28 pm

        “Aloeste considers Jonathan to be a Jewish snitch for writing about it”

        Ohg, she’s just upset. Here, To calm down “Aloeste”, watch a classic film.

      • Mooser
        November 19, 2016, 12:51 pm

        “His hand is so large for an Arab!”

    • MHughes976
      November 16, 2016, 3:59 pm

      Anti-Z implies moral questioning of everything that sustains Z, I suppose, and that would include religious prohibitions on consorting with non-Jews in ways that we might hope would reduce tension and hostility and also social arrangements that have the police involved in questions of who is who’s boyfriend/girlfriend. The latter anyone might find slightly grotesque. It isn’t fair to equate moral critique with hatred and it isn’t reasonable to say that because something has a religious basis it is not open to moral critique.
      I would accept that all religions place difficulties in the way of intermarriage. I think it understandable that people feel uneasiness at the thought of a marriage with someone who might call deeply held beliefs into question. Many atheists, perhaps, would feel uneasy about welcoming a fundamentalist Evangelical into the family circle. It’s how you react to the uneasiness that matters.

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2016, 4:35 pm

        “that would include religious prohibitions on consorting with non-Jews “

        Those “religious prohibitions on consorting with non-Jews”? My Scripture knowledge is deficient, so could somebody quote them for me? Read ’em off your shirt-cuffs or middy-blouse, I don’t care.

        Horrifying isn’t it, over 60% or more of Jews in violation of “religious prohibitions on consorting with non Jews”. We should really let Israel make our marriage rules for us.

      • echinococcus
        November 16, 2016, 6:37 pm

        Very true, Hughes.
        I was very worried when my son fell in love with a religious person.
        Also very much liked this:

        It isn’t fair to equate moral critique with hatred and it isn’t reasonable to say that because something has a religious basis it is not open to moral critique.

    • Marnie
      November 19, 2016, 3:27 am

      So what if someone hates Judaism? So fucking what! It’s a set of beliefs – nothing more and of no more importance than christianity, islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc. Hypocrite!

  7. Maghlawatan
    November 16, 2016, 8:55 am

    Look at Twitter. Israelis run Groupthink Hebrew. Liberal Jews don’t.
    Guess which group is educated.
    Palestinians would bring a bit of depth to the gene pool.

    • aloeste
      November 17, 2016, 5:11 pm

      Horrifying isn’t it, over 60% or more of Jews in violation of “religious prohibitions on consorting with non Jews”. We should really let Israel make our marriage rules for us. –

      —– it didnt work for you so you left the faith . to disparagethe religion you abandoned makes you a jew hater

      • Mooser
        November 17, 2016, 6:42 pm

        So those 60%+ who intermarry are not in violation of “religious prohibitions on consorting with non-Jews”?

        That’s what I thought.

        It just shows, we shouldn’t go to Israel for our ideas about normative or even normal Judaism. Let alone marriage (shudder!)

        Glad you agree.

      • Talkback
        November 18, 2016, 5:28 am

        aloeste: “to disparagethe religion you abandoned makes you a jew hater”

        You have to hate Rassenschande, otherwise you hate those who happen to be Jewish, according to the high inquisitor aloeste. ROFL.

      • Mooser
        November 18, 2016, 12:30 pm

        “it didn’t work for you so you left the faith . to disparage the religion you abandoned makes you a jew hater”

        “aloeste” you’ll want to make sure the Trump administration understands these distinction between good Jews and bad Jews. It won’t take long for them to pick up on it, and its uses.
        I’m sure Jeff Sessions will make “renegade Jews” and Jewish “Jew-haters” the focus of his civil-rights enforcement program. Can’t have a bunch of Jew-haters running around loose in the US, even if they are Jewish.

      • Marnie
        November 20, 2016, 12:23 pm
    • Mikhael
      November 28, 2016, 10:04 pm

      Maghlawatan November 16, 2016, 8:55 am
      Look at Twitter. Israelis run Groupthink Hebrew. Liberal Jews don’t

      Mag, plenty of “liberal” (or the people who you think exemplify “liberalism”, rather than rational liberal Zionist Israelis like me) Israeli Jews are also guilty of groupthinking in Hebrew.

      Guess which group is educated.

      Mag, which group is more educated? Hebrew-speaking (and reading and writing) Israelis of all political tendencies are a highly educated group. It’s common for Israelis to be literate in several languages, and thousands of books are translated into Hebrew annually. You make a lot of assumptions about a language you don’t know.

      Palestinians would bring a bit of depth to the gene pool.

      Because Arabs are all highly individualistic and never guilty of groupthink?! Which universe do you live in?

  8. Avigail Abarbanel
    November 16, 2016, 9:02 am

    Well said Jonathan. Glad you published!

  9. rosross
    November 16, 2016, 10:02 am

    I have long been struck by the double standards at work in many of the Jews I know, friends and family, lovely, intelligent, good, kind people, except where their religion is involved.

    They express great concern about anti-Semitism, but no thought is given to the racism inherent in the grief and often rage which is involved if a child opts to marry a non-Jew.

    To be fair, I have Hindu and Jain friends who react similarly but the fact remains that such attitudes constitute religious racism and Jews cannot point the finger at anti-semitism when they are religiously racist themselves.

    And history reveals most religions have taken similar views in past centuries, but to hold such views in the modern age is simply backward and has no place in a civilized world. Sensible parents wish their children will find someone they love who loves them in return and religion should take second place.

    The entire raison d’etre of Israel is religiously racist because it is based on the premise that Jews must be a majority, because Jews are superior in essence, and the non-Jewish Palestinians are inferior, for some even sub-human.

    If largely Hindu India said or did half the things Israelis do toward non-Jews there would be world outrage at such egregious racism.

    • Mooser
      November 16, 2016, 12:58 pm

      “If largely Hindu India said or did half the things Israelis do toward non-Jews there would be world outrage at such egregious racism.”

      My goodness, yes. Why if there is one thing Hinduism is universally known for, it’s egalitarianism and tolerance.

      • gamal
        November 16, 2016, 1:39 pm

        “Why if there is one thing Hinduism is universally known for”

        thats right throw a tantra and caste aspersions on the Hindu’s

      • Mooser
        November 16, 2016, 1:57 pm

        “thats right throw a tantra and caste aspersions on the Hindu’s”

        You are right, I spoke out of turn.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      November 19, 2016, 7:02 pm

      Secularist Indians were shocked when Modi took office because they thought that his sponsorship of the anti-Moslem pogroms in Gujarat should have put him beyond the pale. But somehow I didn’t notice the world outrage. Probably because his pro-business credentials outweighed his hindutva.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2016, 11:56 am

        Don’t worry, Trump is al;ready going for the emoluments.

        It’s one of my favorite words, “emolument”, but the Constitution doesn’t like it.

    • Maghlawatan
      November 20, 2016, 11:57 pm

      The Parsis do it as well, Rosross. It’s a minority religion thing to maintain the group over the longue duree. You have to have a tight definition that doesn’t get diluted. The priests maintain the code. It gives them work. It is quite sophisticated. The Alawis in Syria would be similar.

      The comparison with the Hindus is off because Hinduism is a supermarket religion. If in the future Hinduism was suppressed by a new religion based on the worship of Kim Kardashian and Hindus were systematically persecuted and expelled from Instagram you would expect to see some of the memes of Judaism popping up.

      Parsi are very strict on intermarriage. The spawn of such unions are not Parsi. We used to have a driver in Bombay whose mother was Parsi and whose father was Hindu. He knew all the rituals but was not a member of the club.

      Now the Parsi population is dwindling.

      • Mooser
        November 21, 2016, 1:13 pm

        “The comparison with the Hindus is off because Hinduism is a supermarket religion.”

        That might just be because of H-1B. People gotta eat, and it’s nice when major supermarkets serve all kinds of tastes, and people can find familiar foods, even out in the suburbs. Makes it easier for people to try new foods, too.

  10. aloeste
    November 17, 2016, 5:09 pm

    those of you who are renegade jews [ ie descendents of jewish mothers] who abandon their religion are 100% within their natural rights. their condemnation of religious doctrine they disagree with is classic anti-semitism. [although from looking here, you mostly are against all religions and G-d as well ]…

    • Mooser
      November 17, 2016, 6:50 pm

      “those of you who are renegade jews [ ie descendents of jewish mothers] who abandon their religion are 100% within their natural rights.”

      Oh, let’s lay it on the line, “Aloeste”! All you “renegade jews” can leave the tribe, we don’t need ya. We’ve got 2 billion Jews, we won’t miss a few misfits.

      Why, if every Jew who ever married a non-Jewish person or abandoned the religion got kicked out it wouldn’t even make a dent in the demographics. The number of secular, intermarried and/or liberal Jews is like .06% percent. Not even worth worrying about.

      Oh, BTW, “aloeste” I assume you have a battalion of Rabbinic pronouncements dealing with “renegade Jews”. Why not pull em out and terrify us with authority?

    • Mooser
      November 17, 2016, 6:56 pm

      “although from looking here, you mostly are against all religions and G-d as well ]…”

      You know, you might be right. Very few people here claim their beliefs give them the right to kill and dispossess people*. That’s usually a sure sign they are against religion and God. When God and religion is on your side, you know what your rights are, what you are entitled to.
      Isn’t that right, “aloeste”, jaunty “aloeste”?

      *apart from Zionists, of course.

      • Philemon
        November 17, 2016, 10:08 pm

        Mooser, my French is a bit rusty, but shouldn’t that be “alouste, gentille, alouste”?

      • Mooser
        November 18, 2016, 11:45 am

        “but shouldn’t that be “alouste, gentille, alouste”?”

        Well, as a “renegade Jew” (that does sound exciting!) I don’t care if somebody is gentille or not.

        (For some reason, I am convinced that being a “renegade Jew” must involve a cape, a sword, and cutting an “M” in the seat of the balebatim’s pants. “Out of the night, when the full moon is bright, comes the renegade Jew known as Mooser!)

    • Talkback
      November 18, 2016, 5:33 am

      aloeste: “their condemnation of religious doctrine they disagree with is classic anti-semitism”

      Even worse, Grand Inquisitor aloeste. Any Jew who disagrees with any Rabbi is an antisemite. Dissent and debate is classical antisemitism, right? ROFL.

    • Talkback
      November 18, 2016, 7:36 am

      Btw. aloeste. Is it “classical antisemitism” to be against land conquest and genocide, too? The prohibition to intermarry is based on Deutoronomy Chapter 7, 3 right after:

      “1. When the Lord, your God, brings you into the land to which you are coming to possess it, He will cast away many nations from before you: the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and powerful than you.

      2. And the Lord, your God, will deliver them to you, and you shall smite them. You shall utterly destroy them; neither shall you make a covenant with them, nor be gracious to them.

      3. You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son.”

      And is it even more antisemitic, if I don’t consider myself a renegade “Jew” or “self hating Jew”, but not “Jewish” at all? Or is it like in some of this childish games, where you get negative points, because you don’t want to play?

      • Mooser
        November 18, 2016, 6:32 pm

        “The prohibition to intermarry is based on Deuteronomy Chapter 7, 3”

        Thanks,” Talkback”, for the cite.

      • Maghlawatan
        November 20, 2016, 11:46 pm

        Deuteronomy 7.3 was written during a period of trauma when Jewish women were systematically raped by some conquering people. Was it the Egyptians or the Persians ?
        Rape is used to control and demean and some times wipe out when applied group wide. The Dalits in India were subject to rape over centuries as a way of reminding them who was in charge.

        Anatolian history is fascinating with all the dead languages and all the cultures that fell by the wayside. Lydians, Hittites, Byzantines etc. One way for historians to decipher ancient texts of cultures that hit the wall is to link them to cultures that are still around. Eg Lydian might be accessed via Assyrian merchant notes.

        2 ancient cultures that are still around are Judaism and whatever you call the Assyrian/Nineveh plains culture. With really old religious code that precedes the 2 big supermarket religions of Islam and Christianity .

        The persistence of Jewish culture is amazing but it means there is a lot of old mumbo jumbo in the religion that was needed in the past for specific reasons, a bit like those furry hats the Lithuanians wear in Jerusalem. I am sure they were trendy in the forests in old Poland back in the day.

        There was a very good reason for Deuteronomy 7.3 at the time.
        But it got lost over the centuries. About 450 years after Deuteronomy was written a rabbi in Alexandria wrote the following :

        “There have now been several Jewish Harvard law school deans, and many Jewish Ivy presidents. Four of the last five Democratic nominees to the Supreme Court have been Jewish and several leading media corporations are led by Jews, not to mention, as Beinart says, our role among the chattering classes: “Jews edit The New York Review of Books, The New Yorker, The Weekly Standard, The Atlantic, Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Vox, Buzzfeed, Politico, and the opinion pages of The New York Times and Washington Post.”

        So the rape thing wasn’t so important, ya’ni. Pass me the blinis, Rebecca.

        And the uber question in Judaism is of course always whether to focus on the code or reality. And it’s a big decison in a town called malice.

      • aloeste
        November 23, 2016, 12:29 pm

        if you have your issues with G-d or Judaism , that;s your problem , until you try and make it mine.

      • Mikhael
        November 25, 2016, 10:24 am

        Maghlawatan November 20, 2016, 11:46 pm The persistence of Jewish culture is amazing but it means there is a lot of old mumbo jumbo in the religion that was needed in the past for specific reasons, a bit like those furry hats the Lithuanians wear in Jerusalem.

        the “shtreimel” (or the “spodik”) today is typically worn by “Galitzianer” (from Austria-Hungary) and Hungarian hassidim, not by “Litvaks” (Jews whose ancestors lived in the areas roghly comprising today’s Lithuania/Belarus). There is one exception, and that is the community that descends from the “Perushim” whose ancestors first started arriving in the Ereṣ Yisra’el in the early 1800s. Their descendants are unique among non-hassidic Litvaks for wearing a shtreimel.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perushim

    • eljay
      November 18, 2016, 8:34 am

      || aloeste: those of you who are renegade jews [ ie descendents of jewish mothers] who abandon their religion are 100% within their natural rights. their condemnation of religious doctrine they disagree with is classic anti-semitism. … ||

      1. Someone converts to Judaism, abandons it and then condemns religious doctrine they disagree with. Is this former Jew anti-Semitic?

      2. A “renegade Jew” chooses to remain ethnically / nationally / civilizationally Jewish but abandons his religion and then condemns religious doctrine he disagrees with. Is this ethnic / national / civilizational Jew anti-Semitic?

      • eljay
        November 18, 2016, 11:17 am

        Addendum: For each response of “yes, this Jew is anti-Semitic”, please explain why. Thank you.

      • aloeste
        November 23, 2016, 12:22 pm

        judaism is at its core fidelity to torah. as the talmud relates the jewish trinity: yisrael ,kudsha brich hu veoreita chad hu — G-d,His people, and His torah. you may reject any part you wish at your own risk. Torah does not recognize ‘cultural’ judaism.

        so to answer your question – number 1 is against G-d’s torah – so he is a Judaism hater , as is number 2. since cultural/ethnic/civilization judaism is a false pretense , you can’t hide behind the fact that you would like to destroy the religion without immolating the bodies.

        The ultimate proof of this is the fact that in every locale , the Nazis first went after Die Rabbiner , for without authentic transmitters of Torah , they knew Judaism would collapse. World Jewish history shows that any community without strong yeshivot to transmit torah properly to the next generation did not endure.

        ‘Renegade Jew’ in today’s time means , like almost all on this list , intermarried. Definitionally their offspring is not Jewish [unless the mother is halachically ]. within one to two generations, they are purely gentiles , who feel free to rant against the religion of their ancestors. and by that point, with animus and malice.

      • eljay
        November 23, 2016, 12:37 pm

        || aloeste: … since cultural/ethnic/civilization judaism is a false pretense … ||

        That’s a very off-script remark for a Zio-supremacist. Your co-collectivists will be disappointed. :-(

      • Mooser
        November 23, 2016, 2:40 pm

        “judaism is at its core fidelity to torah”

        And without Torah, there is no life!!!

        Got the picture, folks? You want life to continue, you better be nice to us.

        “‘Renegade Jew’ in today’s time means , like almost all on this list , intermarried.”

        That’s right. Screw those renegade Jews, we don’t need ’em. Their loss won’t even hardly make a dent in the 2 billion Jews on earth today. Cancel their dividend checks today!

        ,” they are purely gentiles , who feel free to rant against the religion of their ancestors. and by that point, with animus and malice.”

        With Animus and Malice? Oy Gevalt they are going out with Gentile girls!

      • Raphael
        November 23, 2016, 3:23 pm

        aloeste

        I think, as I recall, the N**zis first went after the mischlinge (mongrel Jews) in 1933…the Nuremberg laws were created later in 1935 when they went after the Jews. The mischingle laws of 1933 was a eugenic attempt to purify German blood; from the stain of Jewish blood; from intermarriage with those with Jewish blood… regardless of religion.

        Mischling
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling

        Jewish identity
        Soon after passage of the Enabling Act of 1933, the Nazi government promulgated several antisemitic statutes, including the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service on 7 April 1933. Using this law, the regime aimed to dismiss—along with all politically-suspect persons such as social democrats, socialists, communists and many liberals of all religions—all “non-Aryans” from all government positions in society, including public educators, and those practicing medicine in state hospitals.

        As a result, the term “non-Aryan” had to be defined in a way compatible with Nazi ideology. Under the “First Racial Definition” supplementary decree of 11 April, issued to clarify portions of the act passed four days prior, a “non-Aryan” (e.g. a Jew) was defined as one who had at least one Jewish parent or grandparent.

        Nuremberg laws
        As defined by the Nuremberg Laws in 1935, a Jew (German: Volljude in Nazi terminology) was a person – regardless of religious affiliation or self-identification – who had at least three grandparents who had been enrolled with a Jewish congregation.[3] A person with two Jewish grandparents was also legally “Jewish” (so-called Geltungsjude, roughly speaking, in English: “Jew by legal validity”) if that person met any of these conditions:

      • RoHa
        November 23, 2016, 4:32 pm

        “With Animus and Malice? Oy Gevalt they are going out with Gentile girls”

        Is that Alice Aforethought? I used to know her. Totally failed to get off with her, as usual.

      • Mooser
        November 23, 2016, 10:12 pm

        “‘Renegade Jew’ in today’s time means , like almost all on this list , intermarried. Definitionally their offspring is not Jewish”

        So “aloeste” about how many real authentic, non-renegade Jews are left? You aren’t worried that by declaring so many Jews as renegades Judaism will fall below the needed strength needed to do the job.
        Or do you figure that the Gentiles will always prop up and support the real authentic Jews, and help you get rid of the “renegades”?
        And making Judaism a religious backbiting competition will keep lots of kids Jewish too. What could be more fun or spiritually fulfilling?

      • Mooser
        November 26, 2016, 7:50 pm

        “The ultimate proof of this is the fact that in every locale , the Nazis first went after Die Rabbiner , for without authentic transmitters of Torah , they knew Judaism would collapse”

        Yeah, and if there was anybody who knew all about Jews and what they need, it’s the Nazis.

    • echinococcus
      November 18, 2016, 9:23 pm

      Aloeste,

      Thank you!

      You confirm what I keep repeating: “antisemitism” as called by Zionists is not racism. Not only it seems to include more than racism, in fact seen from the (institutional-)Jewish side “classical anti-semitism” doesn’t even include any characteristics at birth, as it is “condemnation of religious doctrine”.
      So according to your “classical” definition, antisemitism would be a refreshing, very welcome attitude of opposition to superstition. One that doubtless was shared by almost all of the Zionist founding fathers.

      • aloeste
        November 23, 2016, 12:25 pm

        i stand on this issue with the Satmer Rebbe , who knew where vicious Jew hatred laid. we are quite content to let you rail against G-d, His Torah, His people, their land— in any combination you wish . it is fairly clear that the left has equal animus against the Jews owning their Land, or practicing their religion, in equal doses

      • eljay
        November 23, 2016, 12:42 pm

        || aloeste: … it is fairly clear that the left has equal animus against the Jews owning their Land or practicing their religion, in equal doses … ||

        People have a right choose to be Jewish and to purchase land legally.

        There exists no “Land” on Earth that belongs to all people in the world who choose to be/come Jewish. “Jewish State” is an unjust, immoral and religion-supremacist construct. No group of people in the world is entitled to such a construct.

      • echinococcus
        November 23, 2016, 1:53 pm

        You don’t say, Westie! When has your god said or written in his testament that Jews don’t own land or don’t practice freely? Almost half of my neighborhood is Jewish, they own real expensive houses, freely have their synagogue sessions, dragging there the atheists, too, and having big, racist, aggressive propaganda meetings.
        Where is your problem?

        A reference to your Satmer does not inform. All I know is having been in Satu Mare, nice, laid-back place in Maramureş –the middle of nowhere, no relationsip to the sea. It seems Jews there also had their rabbin, if you say so, and owned their house.

        Meanwhile, I am waiting: no peep from any of you guys about defining antisemitism as either being entirely a matter of discrimination based on characteristics at birth, or not.
        If not, all those superstitious regurgitations are totally worthless: attacking any religion is a right –for some, a duty.

      • Mooser
        November 23, 2016, 2:49 pm

        .” it is fairly clear that the left has equal animus against the Jews owning their Land, or practicing their religion, in equal doses”

        Yes, it was Edmund Burke, the father of modern leftism, who railed against Jews.

      • Maghlawatan
        November 25, 2016, 11:27 am

        Aloeste the first Jewish shangri-la la fell because of sinat hinam which is the baseless hatred of Jews for other Jews. I understand that Kastner had a bad dose of sinat hinam. And that Orthodox vs Conservative/Reform is developing nicely.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 1:18 pm

        “Aloeste the first Jewish shangri-la la fell because of sinat hinam which is the baseless hatred of Jews for other Jews.”

        “Mag”, I’m shocked! How can you say that? Isn’t every single comment from our Zionist commentator’s predicated on Tribal Unity?
        I don’t know what gives you the idea that differences in belief, observance, income, politics, culture and interests, and ethnic or racial prejudice could ever disturb the Tribal Unity of the Jewish nationality.

        (See, it was anti-Semitism what forced millions of not-really-Jewish people live as Jews.
        The old anti-Semitic European cultures used to throw in all their hippies, liberals, bad poets, socialists, tree-huggers and abolitionists and well-you-knows in with the Jews. Well, now that anti-Semitism isn’t a factor in most countries, we can get rid of these people, since nobody forces us to keep them any longer.)

  11. oldgeezer
    November 18, 2016, 5:31 am

    Government funded racism. Who woulda thunk it. Eat your heart out David Duke and assorted white supremacists although in fairness they aren’t engaged in ethnic cleansing and worse…. yet.

    I have to agree with eljay’s argument on zionists.

    Maybe aloeste can explain to me why it is ok for Israel to fund such activities but not ok for other government to fund anti Jewish programmes. Racism and bigotry is wrong no matter who the perps are.

    • Mooser
      November 18, 2016, 11:53 am

      ” Government funded racism. Who woulda thunk it. Eat your heart out David Duke and assorted white supremacists although in fairness they aren’t engaged in ethnic cleansing and worse…. yet”

      Trump wants Jeff Sessions for US Attorney General.

      • Citizen
        November 20, 2016, 11:36 am

        Where does the ZOA stand on Sessions appointment?

  12. Citizen
    November 18, 2016, 11:38 am

    Anybody got one of those old army belt buckles embossed with “Gott Mit Uns”?

  13. Citizen
    November 18, 2016, 11:42 am

    I remember the commotion I unwittingly caused when I started dating the young lady who became my wife….

    • Mooser
      November 18, 2016, 2:08 pm

      “I remember the commotion I unwittingly caused when I started dating the young lady who became my wife….”

      When I met my wife she was humming “Some Day My Prints Will Come” outside a Photo-Mat booth. This was long before digital cameras and home printers.

    • Mooser
      November 18, 2016, 4:24 pm

      When my Mom met my wife-to-be she treated her like she was her very own daughter, and tearfully begged her not to throw herself away on a paskudnyak “like him” (jerking a maternal thumb in my direction). On our anniversary, she sends my wife a full envelope, too. Full of business cards from divorce lawyers she’s collected over the year.

      • Citizen
        November 20, 2016, 11:39 am

        When my wife-to-be’s mother met me, she yelled, “I am going to pour hot boiling chicken soup on your goyischekopf!” I was the last person she wanted to see, before she died. I did see her.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2016, 2:42 pm

        “I was the last person she wanted to see, before she died. I did see her.”

        My MIL tells me I’m the last person she wants to see, too. A lot. Mothers just don’t take to me, for some reason.

  14. W.Jones
    November 18, 2016, 3:14 pm

    More Netanyahu reasonableness:

    http://i.imgur.com/MG2GpnI.png

  15. Maghlawatan
    November 19, 2016, 4:47 am

    Judaism has gone though periods when conversion was kosher and periods when the tribe is basically hermetically sealed. They couldn’t have Judaised the Ashkenazim without being open at some stage.
    The problem with the current setup is Terminal Groupthink. And they don’t have the thinkers within the group to solve the multiple crises that are converging.

    The trauma iterations have really deteriorated the quality of the gene pool:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdeqXQPW7TM
    And the quality of politics
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpWtJD7pQw

    Khalaas ya’ni

    They urgently need some quality non traumatised genetic material that hasn’t been exposed to 3 generations of bullshit. They can start with music therapy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj-pyJF6ckU

  16. jeff_davis
    November 19, 2016, 11:46 am

    So help me out here.

    If a Jewish woman marries a Muslim/Arab man, and they have a child, that child is, according to Jewish “rules”, a Jew, right? And then, if that child is raised as a Muslim in a Muslim family, wouldn’t that make him/her a Jewish Muslim, or perhaps a Muslim Jew?

    Also, similarly, if Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza (and the various Palestinian diaspora refugee camps) “converted” to Judaism, wouldn’t that solve the whole problem? Couldn’t the local Palest,… er “nouveau Jews” just, you know, join the rest of the Misrahis? And couldn’t the diaspora “nouveau Jews” make “aliya”, and all return to their homes in Pales,… er, Israel?

    And for a little irony in all this, lets not forget that the Palestinians are, by all accounts, the actual descendants of the original Jews of the biblical era. Over the millennia, pragmatism provoked a change of vestments to those of an alternative Abrahamic religious practice. In short ***THEY ARE*** the original Jews!!! As the true descendants of the ancient Jewish bloodline, wouldn’t they therefore be the true inheritors of any claim to “the promised land”, and possessed of a superior claim to that of the Ashkenazi European “colonists”?

    “Advanced” cognitive ability enables insanity.

    • gamal
      November 19, 2016, 2:02 pm
      • RoHa
        November 19, 2016, 9:31 pm

        Interesting link, gamal. Thanks for that.

        (But I’m afraid it supports the general impression that Mediaeval Jewish culture was a by-product of Islamic culture. Showing this won’t make us friends in certain quarters.)

      • echinococcus
        November 29, 2016, 2:05 pm

        Michael,

        My father was only “Palestinian” from October 1932 until May 15, 1948

        Being of at least one parent with local ancestry, he was Palestinian, period. The absence of a local state independent from the Ottoman Empire does not change this, any more than it does for a Greek or a Bulgarian, no matter the internal “millet” attribution. The more so as it was smoothly continued under British mandate.

        He and the rest of his family permanently and joyfully ceased to be “Palestinian” when “Palestine” ended. He was a religious Jew and an Israeli, and I am an agnostic Jew and an Israeli.

        Personal feelings and religion are irrelevant here. You cannot be an “agnostic Jew”, as you still have not given a single answer to the request for proof of any single, non-liturgical common “Jewish” cultural element.

        I embrace my Jewish national heritage and lengthy lineage in Ereṣ Yisra’el, don’t be silly .Try to read more carefully.

        What you “embrace” or not is your silly subjective problem. Not any objective characterization according to common consensus.

        [Mooser] used words derived from Hebrew, the Jewish national language, and I’m trying to help him improve his skills in pronouncing Hebrew. There’s no reason for him to use his Leo Rosten-acquired Yiddish (and I wager as an ex-yeshiva student in Brooklyn that I actually have a better grasp of Yiddish)

        Your crass ignorance, no matter studies in whatever else than language, is immediately obvious with regard to the borrowings in Yiddish, a living German language with a long and distinguished history that the Zionist b&[email protected] are trying to murder by replacing it with an artificial creole that uses biblical Hebrew on a Slavic-Germanic structure.

        “Borrowings” are not a financially correct term here, of course. Vocabulary borrowings are annexed. “Very” is no longer a Norman French word, it is English and, in now American in my mouth. So mazel and other Yiddisch words are not “Hebrew”. Again, you are not allowed your own personal objectivity.

        The “pronunciation” of the constructed language modern Hebrew, by the way, is the most ridiculous hybrid anyone could ever come up with, of Sefardí sounds in an Eskenazi mouth. All you guys are speaking what you think is Hebrew with an atrocious Yiddish accent anyway. Also, that modern creole is not a “Hebrew national language” but the Zionist weapon-language in its propaganda war to invent some “Jewish” identity and kill various mother tongues.

    • talknic
      November 19, 2016, 6:43 pm

      @ jeff_davis November 19, 2016, 11:46 am

      “If a Jewish woman marries a Muslim/Arab man, and they have a child, that child is, according to Jewish “rules”, a Jew, right?”

      By birth. Religion is another matter. There are plenty of non-religious Jews. One cannot ‘convert’ to a non-practicing Jew

      ” And then, if that child is raised as a Muslim in a Muslim family, wouldn’t that make him/her a Jewish Muslim, or perhaps a Muslim Jew?”

      Only the former … A Jewish (by birth) Muslim (by religion). One can ONLY be Muslim by religion.

      “Also, similarly, if Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza (and the various Palestinian diaspora refugee camps) “converted” to Judaism, wouldn’t that solve the whole problem?:”

      No. The Zionist Colonial Enterprise is the problem. It’s pyramid scheme depends on more and more land to the point where Israel can not now afford to adhere to the law, it would be sent bankrupt

      “And for a little irony in all this, lets not forget that the Palestinians are, by all accounts, the actual descendants of the original Jews of the biblical era”

      By “all” of who’s “accounts”? Our Jewish forefathers conquered someone and there’s no evidence that Jewish folk have ever been a majority in the region

      • aloeste
        November 23, 2016, 12:35 pm

        Also, similarly, if Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza (and the various Palestinian diaspora refugee camps) “converted” to Judaism, wouldn’t that solve the whole problem?:”

        —– so you think as little of moslems as you do jews? you think they don’t take their religion seriously? Do you know how difficult the procedure to convert halachically is?

        but those moslems who converted to judaism are , takke, completely jewish. no different for example than black or asian chassidim i know

    • Stephen Shenfield
      November 20, 2016, 8:31 am

      jeff davis: All correct. The only problem is that conversion is in the hands of the rabbis. In Israel that means Orthodox rabbis, who are unlikely to be very cooperative. I suggest that the world’s Palestinians all visit the United States, arranging in advance to get converted by more cooperative Reform rabbis. Then they all apply to enter Israel as Jews under the Law of Return. What happens then? I’m getting confused so I leave it to others to take it from there.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2016, 11:58 am

        “What happens then?”

        They start singing an old Rolling Stones song.

      • Citizen
        November 20, 2016, 5:14 pm

        You used to laugh about
        Everybody that was hangin’ out
        Now you don’t walk so proud
        Now you don’t talk so loud
        About having to be scrounging for your
        Next meal
        How does it feel
        How does it feel
        To be on your own
        With no direction home
        A complete unknown
        Just like a rolling stone?

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2016, 10:31 pm

        A vicious song directed at a troubled girl by a nasty guy. Never liked it.

      • aloeste
        November 23, 2016, 12:36 pm

        again, this assumes that moslems take their religion as unseriously as non-orthodox jews do…

      • Mooser
        November 23, 2016, 7:12 pm

        “again, this assumes that moslems take their religion as unseriously as non-orthodox jews do…”

        I don’t know, the Orthodox sold out to the Zionists very quickly. They sure didn’t take Judaism seriously, when they thought they could get something. –

      • Mikhael
        November 25, 2016, 9:28 am

        Mooser November 23, 2016, 7:12 pm

        “again, this assumes that moslems take their religion as unseriously as non-orthodox jews do…”
        I don’t know, the Orthodox sold out to the Zionists very quickly. They sure didn’t take Judaism seriously, when they thought they could get something.

        It’s obvious though that ignoramuses like “Mooser” aren’t qualified to talk about what taking Judaism seriously entails.
        It’s not as if the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland is somehow extrinsic to Orthodox Judaism to the extent that Orthodox Jews would need to “sell out” to embrace the modern political Zionist ideology. Some Orthodox Jews (clearly not all) are/were opposed to political Zionism, for among other reasons, the fact that the Jewish state is not governed according to theocratic principles, a Sanhedrin, a Jewish king, but has taken the shape of a multi-party secular parliamentary democracy. Other Orthodox Jews, like the bizarre Neturei Karta, who portray themselves as “true Jews” and are lionized on sites like this for supposedly championing Palestinian rights and opposing Zionism, cling to a masochistic idea that Jews should suffer in Exile until the final Messianic Redemption. If you question Neturei Karta adherents closely, though, they are convinced that when the Messianic erra arrives, God and his annointed will sweep the Holy Land clean of all non-Jewish infidels as well as secular Jews).

      • Mikhael
        November 25, 2016, 9:42 am

        Stephen Shenfield November 20, 2016, 8:31 am
        I suggest that the world’s Palestinians all visit the United States, arranging in advance to get converted by more cooperative Reform rabbis. Then they all apply to enter Israel as Jews under the Law of Return. What happens then? I’m getting confused so I leave it to others to take it from there.

        You’re imagining that the world’s most desperate Palestinian Arabs ( e.g., Arabs claiming Palestinian roots desperately clinging to life in places like Syria) who get a visa to the US (which as difficult as it is now, will likely be much harder for them after the new administration is installed), won’t prefer to make new lives in the US and do everything they can to stay there rather than try to get Israeli citizneship via an insincere conversion to Judaism.

        And even though Israel accepts non-Othodox conversions performed abroad for purposes of aliyah under the Law of Return, the Reform or Reconstructionist rabbis who perform such conversions must still be on an approved list and there must be convincing evidence that the non-Orthodox convert and would-be future Israeli citizen has been an active member of a Jewihs community of some sort for a certain duration of time. They can’t just undergo the quickie Reform conversion on a Sunday (which are not always so quick) and Reform conversion certificate in hand, have their application to to immigrate to Israelbe approved under the Law of Return on the Monday after.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 2:14 pm

        “It’s obvious though that ignoramuses like “Mooser” aren’t qualified to talk about what taking Judaism seriously entails.”

        Oh no! I think I failed the Jewish Nationality Citizenship Test, and will soon be a nebbish without a country.

        But when all those Palestinian’s convert their nationality to Jewish, you is going to be in a whole lot of trouble, “Mikhael”.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2016, 3:50 pm

        “It’s not as if the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland is somehow extrinsic to Orthodox Judaism to the extent that Orthodox Jews would need to “sell out” to embrace the modern political Zionist ideology.”

        Yup, that’s what anti-Semites have been saying for hundreds of years. No doubt it’s one of your basic beliefs.

        OBTW, “Mikhael” have you caught on to the fact that the entire “conversion” conversation was introduced as an ironic jest?

      • RoHa
        November 25, 2016, 9:06 pm

        “the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland ”

        A mistaken notion, of course. There is no such right.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 2:24 am

        Mooser November 25, 2016, 3:50 pm

        “It’s not as if the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland is somehow extrinsic to Orthodox Judaism to the extent that Orthodox Jews would need to “sell out” to embrace the modern political Zionist ideology.”

        Yup, that’s what anti-Semites have been saying for hundreds of years. No doubt it’s one of your basic beliefs

        Anti-Semites claimed that Jews could never truly integrate in non-Jewish sociey no matter how assimilated they were and they fulfilled this prophecy by slaughtering entire Jewish populations, including the most assimilated Jews. A reasonable person would not infer from the statement “It’s not as if the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland is somehow extrinsic to Orthodox Judaism” that I believe Jews can never truly integrate in non-Jewish societies, ,which is a core anti-Semitic belief. Anti-Semites never, to my knowledge, advocated the idea that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland, but even if they did, it would not negate the fact that this idea is in fact intrinsic to Orthodox Judaism, which has been the normative expression of religious Judaism for two millenia. The fact that you feel threatened by this belief doesn’t make it an un-Jewish idea.

        OBTW, “Mikhael” have you caught on to the fact that the entire “conversion” conversation was introduced as an ironic jest?

        Only intelligent people are capable of ironic jest, so I have to assume that whoever suggested that meant the question sincerely.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 2:39 am

        RoHa November 25, 2016, 9:06 pm

        “the notion that the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland ”

        A mistaken notion, of course. There is no such right.

        Of course there is. And the Jewish People have regained that right in their own homeland and won’t forfeit it. Hundreds of years now, there will be a society of Hebrew-speaking Jews who live in their own ancestral homeland (Ereṣ Yisra’el, of course) under a Jewish government of their choosing. Although one can never know what the future holds for one’s descendants, or even if natural disasters, accidents or disease will kill off my future progeny, there is a very high likelihood that my grandchildren and great grandchildren will be included in the population and will live as free Jews in their own country. The idea troubles and displeases you, but this is your problem, not mine, and there’s just not one thing you can effectively do about it.

      • Mikhael
        November 26, 2016, 2:49 am

        Mooser November 25, 2016, 2:14 pm

        “It’s obvious though that ignoramuses like “Mooser” aren’t qualified to talk about what taking Judaism seriously entails.”

        Oh no! I think I failed the Jewish Nationality Citizenship Test, and will soon be a nebbish without a country.

        If it were up to me, I’d definitely shut the door on you when you came knockin’, because I believe in limiting the number of obnoxious people in Israel. Unfortunately, absent a criminal record or a determination that you pose a threat to state security (as an ineffectual “nebbish” you simply don’t rate) they would probably have to approve your aliyah application if you really are the Jewish person you claim to be.

        when all those Palestinian’s convert their nationality to Jewish, you is going to be in a whole lot of trouble, “Mikhael”.

        If their conversion is sincere, then surely they would be happy for Israel to remain a Jewish state. And as a lineal descendant of a family that’s been in in the Land of Israel for 17 continuous generations, I can trace deeper roots in the country than many of the Arabic-speaking non-Jews whose ancestors arrived in more recent times and who assert a “Palestinian” national identity. (All Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway, but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.)

      • talknic
        November 26, 2016, 10:50 am

        Mikhael “All Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”

        Uh huh. Including very Chinese looking Chinese Jews … Right? http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y#Jews-are-a-race

        ” … but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.”

        A) Prove it …
        B) So what, it’s entirely irrelevant to the the limits of the Jewish State according to its self proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders and the Jewish State’s illegal activities in territories outside the Jewish State

      • Mooser
        November 26, 2016, 12:47 pm

        ” … but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.”

        Mazel Tov “Mikhael”! Pat yourself on the tuchus and shout “Hooray!” You’re a Palestinian!

        And gee, considering your family comes from Brooklyn (you’ve got an archive, chump) you could even call yourself a “Palestinian-American”!!

      • talknic
        November 26, 2016, 6:05 pm

        Palestinian according to maps in the Jewish National and University Library no less.

        http://wp.me/pDB7k-GO

        Poor Mikhael …

      • RoHa
        November 27, 2016, 12:48 am

        “Anti-Zionists are simpletons who believe in a binary world and who think that Jews, alone of all national groups, should be denied right to national self-determination in their original ancestral homeland.”

        I assume that by “national groups” you mean the sort of thing I call “n-nations” .

        See
        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/putting-israels-humanitarian/#comment-769433

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/putting-israels-humanitarian/#comment-770132

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/putting-israels-humanitarian/#comment-770732

        Other anti-Zionists can speak for themselves, but I argue that no national group (n-nation or c-nation) has a right to set up or maintain a state (a p-nation) anywhere.

        A state/p-nation can only be set up or maintained in a territory.
        Setting up a state in a territory will seriously affect all the people in the territory
        By general moral principles of equity, then, the decision and right (insofar as there is one) to set up the state is a matter for all the population of the territory.
        But national groups are not necessarily co-extensive with the population of the territory.
        If the right to set up a state were vested in national groups, it would exclude some the population who, by equity, are entitled to it.
        Thus, the right cannot be a right of national groups.

        Let us look at my paradigm example: the Finns.
        The territory of Finland is largely inhabited by (national group) Finns, but it also includes Finland-Svensk and Sami. To say that the Finns, as a national group, have the right to set up a state is to say that the rights of the Finland-Svensk and Sami do not count. Bizarrely, it also extends that right to those Finns who do not live in the territory (those around Kiruna, for example) who would not be be affected by the decision in the way that the Finland-Svensk and Sami would be affected.

        So the right to set up a state is not a right of the (national group) Finns, but a right of all the people in Finland.

        Now, you might want to reject this argument, claiming “the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland … is in fact intrinsic to Orthodox Judaism” but that is just to say that you, and Orthodox Judaism, reject the normal moral principles of equity.

        That is hardly a persuasive stance.

        (You give the impression of believing that the norm is that of pre-existing n-nations setting up p-nations. But the reality is rather different. There are number of p-nations which include members of several different n-nations. China, Brazil, Indonesia, the USA, India, and Australia all fit this description. Also, some n-nations have come into being by several distinct groups being welded together in a single p-nation. This happened in England, where Britons, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Vikings, and Normans have merged to become the English. In this case the p-nation preceded the n-nation. From Qin Shi Huang onwards, rulers of China have attempted to create a single n-nation in China, but with less success.)

      • Mikhael
        November 27, 2016, 7:42 pm

        talknic November 26, 2016, 10:50 am

        Mikhael “All Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”

        Uh huh. Including very Chinese looking Chinese Jews … Right? http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y#Jews-are-a-race

        Highlighting the Kaifeng Jewish descendants, who trace their roots to Persian Jewish traders who arrived in the Middle Kingdom via the Silk Road, because they phenotypically resemble Chinese doesn’t contradict the fact that Jews by and large trace their roots to ancient inhabitants of Ereṣ Yisra’el. Now, re-reading my comment, I will admit an error I made when I stated that ““[a]ll Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”. That was a mistake on my part, I should have written “the vast majority of Jews can claim deep roots in the country” rather than “all.” It’s true that a statistically insignificant number of recent converts to Judaism, an even smaller proportion of which has actually taken advantage of the right to gain Israeli citizenship and joined other Jews in Israel under the Law of Return, is unikely to have deep ancestral roots in Ereṣ Yisra’el, unlike people descended from the major Diaspora Jewish communities. Your example of the Kaifeng Jewish community (or rather, the claimed descendants of the community who have re-embraced a Jewish identity, since the community effectively ceased to fucntion some centuries ago) is, however, a very poor example of a group that has no Jewish ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el and indicates racist thinking on your part. The origins of the Kaifeng Jewish community comes from Persian Jews, who trace their origins to the Jews of Ereṣ Yisra’el. Your characterization of them as “very Chinese looking” doesn’t demonstrate that they have ancestral ties to Ereṣ Yisra’el. It does show a racist obsession on your part, however. I suppose that if you have children (I shudder to imagine that you have procreated) who marry into an Asian-Australian family and produce “very Chinese looking offspring” who in turn marry Asians who have even more “Chinese looking offspring”, you will deny that they can be descended from you. People from one ethnic group do intermarry across so-called “racial” lines across generations, you know, and their descendants will show traits of the group they marry into. In the USA, many Native American tribal members look entirely like European- or African-Americans as well. Does that mean that they can’t also claim Native American descent or identity? What a stupid argument you make. I hope you are aware that the Arabic-speaking non-Jews who have declared themselves to be of “Palestinian” nationality exhibit a diversity of racial and ancestral backgrounds. Many of them resemble sub-Saharan Africans while others look like white, Northern Europeans. The fact that people claiming a Palestinian Arab national identity can look like many different racial and ethnic groups doesn’t undermine their claim, so it’s a silly argument to make against Jews having a shared national identity.

        … but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.”

        A) Prove it …

        I am in New York most of the year but I will probably be in Jerusalem (you know, the capital city of Israel), in February or March. If you happen to be in Jerusalem, the capital city of Israel, at that time, perhaps I can arrange to meet you there and I can give you a tour of the Jewish Mt. of Olives cemetery (where we may risk getting stoned by Arab youths) to view my ancestors’ tombstones. Then we can travel to Sefath and see family graves dating to the 1500s. I can ask relatives to show you the family records and host you for a Shabbat lunch. However, like most of the people who post on Mondoweiss, including “talknic” or “Mooser” , I don’t divulge my full name, for a variety of reasons. To publicly prove that I am descended from a Jewish family that has resided in Ereṣ Yisra’el for centuries, I would have to disclose my actual identity. If you research the names of the old Sefaradi families that have lived in Sefat and Jerusalem, you can find the names of quite a few of my ancestors and cousins (one of them is my paternal grandmother’s maiden name and one of them was a “Rishon le’Siyyon”, the Sefaradi chief rabbi of Jerusalem).

        So what, it’s entirely irrelevant to the the limits of the Jewish State according to its self proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders and the Jewish State’s illegal activities in territories outside the Jewish State

        Try to focus. Your counterfactual and tiresomely tendentious argument that Israel’s borders are delineated only by the 1947 Res. 181 Partition Lines has nothing to with the current topic under discussion. My bringing up my ancestry was in direct response to “Mooser”‘s insinuation, that I, a scion of a family that has lived in the country for centuries somehow have a less right to live there as an Israeli Jew.

      • Mikhael
        November 27, 2016, 8:38 pm

        Mooser November 26, 2016, 12:47 pm

        ” … but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.”

        Mazel Tov “Mikhael”! Pat yourself on the tuchus and shout “Hooray!” You’re a Palestinian!

        You mean “MaZAL tov” not “Mazel tov”. And it’s “taḤath” not “tuches”. However, considering that I was born in Boston, to Israeli-Jewish parents, citizens of Israel (who duly registered my birth with the Israeli Consulate as required by Israeli law) in 1970, more than 22 years after the British Mandate of Palestine ceased to exist, there is no way that I can be a “Palestinian-American”, but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born. My late father, who was born in Jerusalem in 1932, was a Palestinian citizen for almost the first 16 years of his life, but his “Palestinian” status permanently ended when “Palestine” ended in May, 1948.

        His parents were born in Jerusalem in 1900 and 1904, and held Ottoman citizenship from birth until 1925. They first became “Palestinians” only after the British introduced the category of Palestinian citizenship and started issuing Palestinian identity documents, first to the former Ottoman citizens residing in the Mandate, Jews, Arabs, Armenians , Greeks and others, and then to other people,including many long-term resident Ashkenazi Jews whose families had been living in places like Jerusalem,Hebron, Sefat and Tiberias for centuries but who had been under the diplomatic protection of foreign consulates (like Imperial Russia and Austria-Hungary). In addition to the long-term resident Jews, whether Sefaradi families like my paternal ancestors who had been in the country some four centuries at the time of the British conquest, or religious Ashkenazi families whose families had come in waves from the late 17th through the 19th centuries, the other group of Palestinian Jews in the British period were the Zionist pioneers who came in the early 20th century, people like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir. Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir both held British-issued Palestinian citizenship documents at one point in their lives, thus they were as legitimately Palestinian during that period as my father was, his parents, or Yasser Arafat, because that’s all being Palestinian meant at the time. Luckily for my family, on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was declared and all of my erstwhile Palestinian relatives as well as other Jews who formerly held Palestinian citizenship documents permanently ceased to be Palestinian and joyfully embraced their Israeli identity.

        gee, considering your family comes from Brooklyn (you’ve got an archive, chump)

        For such an avid archivist, you’ve done really poor research. No gotchas! in my Mondo archives. Since you’re so interested, my family lived in Brooklyn, and most of my upbringing and formative years were there (with some detours in the Midwest and back in Israel for a few of my childhood years) . So while an argument can be made that I am from Brooklyn (but not quite, as I mentioned above and as I’m sure you’ll find confirmation in my archive, to my chagrin I was born in a 2nd-rate city called Boston, MA and even lived in flyover country (Lincoln, NE) for a couple of years as a kid), my family is certainly not. My father traced 17 generations in Ereṣ Yisra’el to a well-known Sefaradi/Mizrahi rabbinic and mercantile family, my mother’s family came to Israel as Hungarian Ashkenazi refugees from Hitler. They raised a family mostly in Brooklyn — Gravesend (with the Syrian-Jewish community) and later Boro Park but they were not but not from Brooklyn.

      • Mikhael
        November 27, 2016, 9:10 pm

        talknic November 26, 2016, 6:05 pm

        Palestinian according to maps in the Jewish National and University Library no less.

        http://wp.me/pDB7k-GO

        Poor Mikhael …

        Reasonable and informed people understand that maps showing a large area dubbed “Palestine” by European foreigners, using a vaguely descriptive name for the region roughly equivalent to “Holy Land” which include large chunks of territory that are presently governed by the Palestinian National Authority (in its Fatah and Hamas incarnations) and the State of Israel, as well as areas that are currently part of Lebanon and Syria (to the extent that the governments of the aforementioned states actually control territory given present circumstances), Egypt and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, don’t demonstrate the existence of a Palestinian Arab nation-state or a geopolitical entity governing territory in the name of a Palestinian People in the past, nor do they prove the existence of national group claiming a Palestinian identity during that period. However, as a defender of the rights of national self-determination for all peoples, I certainly recognize that a group of non-Jews who lived in this region who speak Shami (Levantine) dialects of Arabic, due to the confrontation with Jewish nationalism (Zionism) have formed a distinct Palestinian national identity. It’s certain that none of my ancestors ever regarded themselves as sharing in this self-definition, although some of my ancestors and relatives briefly were British Palestinian citizens during the Mandate period. I am, of course, a very strong advocate of a Palestinian Arab nation-state in the future, its borders with Israel to be determined, hopefully by mutual agreement between the governments of both peoples (if said agreement cannot be reached, the contours of such borders will have to be unilaterally decided by Israel). This would be first sovereign Palestinian-Arab nation state in recorded history known by that name.

      • echinococcus
        November 28, 2016, 8:22 am

        Michael and his post November 27, 2016, 8:38 pm

        Thanks for the detailed history. It’s a very clear-cut case. If true, of course you are an American from a true Palestinian father, and religious members of his family would presumably have been Jewish. Under the Ottoman Millet system, the religion of the non-religious members would have been registered as Jewish as long as they did not convert to another (monotheistic) religion, and the Grand Chacham of Constantinople would have exerted temporal authority over them and kept their civil registry until 1908.

        So your acrobatics trying to reject your heritage under pretext of official citizenship has definitely documented that heritage as very Palestinian.

        Also, your trying to correct Mooser’s Yiddish is more than ridiculous. He knows it much better than yourself.

      • talknic
        November 28, 2016, 8:41 am

        Mikhael November 27, 2016, 7:42 pm

        “Now, re-reading my comment, I will admit an error I made when I stated that ““[a]ll Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”. That was a mistake on my part, I should have written “the vast majority of Jews can claim deep roots in the country” rather than “all.”

        Indeed

        ” Your example of the Kaifeng Jewish community (or rather, the claimed descendants of the community who have re-embraced a Jewish identity, since the community effectively ceased to fucntion some centuries ago) is, however, a very poor example of a group that has no Jewish ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el and indicates racist thinking on your part.”

        Typical Zionist in desperation ploy, make a completely unsupportable accusation.

        “Your characterization of them as “very Chinese looking”

        They don’t look Chinese? WOW!! I wonder if they know

        ” It does show a racist obsession on your part”

        Again with the nonsensical accusation.

        ” however. I suppose that if you have children (I shudder to imagine that you have procreated) “

        I believe the expression is “Go f*ck yourself”.

        ” .. who marry into an Asian-Australian family and produce “very Chinese looking offspring” who in turn marry Asians who have even more “Chinese looking offspring”, you will deny that they can be descended from you”

        A false assumption based on your own imagination. Cute, but not unusual for a Zionist apologist. False accusations on behalf of the Jewish State’s ongoing crimes, in total conflict with the most basic of Judaisms common sense tenets. Bizarre

        “… it’s a silly argument to make against Jews having a shared national identity”

        I didn’t make any such argument. Another false accusation on your part

        “I am in New York most of the year but I will probably be in ..etc etc etc”

        Proves exactly nothing.

        ” Your counterfactual and tiresomely tendentious argument that Israel’s borders are delineated only by the 1947 Res. 181 Partition Lines has nothing to with the current topic under discussion”

        Another false accusation.

        A) Israel’s Internationally recognized borders were proclaimed effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) by the Israeli Government . There’s nothing counterfactual or tendentious about it http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        B) They’re Israel’s ONLY Proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders. They have everything to do with the current topic

        ” My bringing up my ancestry was in direct response to “Mooser”‘s insinuation, that I, a scion of a family that has lived in the country for centuries somehow have a less right to live there as an Israeli Jew”

        You have no right to live in Palestine as an Israeli

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 12:07 pm

        Mikhael, if you got married you could expound at, or even just sit and mutter to your wife. And she could say “Yes, dear, you are so smart! Such an expert!” Makes a guy feel good.

        “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

        Yup, that’s right, isn’t it. You got a good ol’ US anchor.

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 12:46 pm

        “that I, a scion of a family that has lived in the country for centuries somehow” “Mikhael”

        Oy Gevalt he’s a scion already! Should we call you ‘My Lord” or maybe “Baron Mikhael”? Should we all tip our hats, and the ladies curtsy? A “scion” A tuches un a halb!

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 3:04 pm

        ” however. I suppose that if you have children (I shudder to imagine that you have procreated) “ “Mikhael” @ “talknic”

        You must remember “talknic”, that “Mikhael” has very high standards for marriage and family life. Any falling-off from the high standards of monogamy and child-rearing he espouses gets him upset.

        “I’ve already got four kids (that I know of), I’ve done enough procreating and I’ve got child support judgments from three women on two continents to prove it.” Mikhael

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2016, 3:39 pm

        “Mikhael” you were born in 1970?

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 6:43 pm

        echinococcus November 28, 2016, 8:22 am
        Michael and his post November 27, 2016, 8:38 pm

        Thanks for the detailed history. It’s a very clear-cut case. If true, of course you are an American from a true Palestinian father, and religious members of his family would presumably have been Jewish.

        My father was only “Palestinian” from October 1932 until May 15, 1948. He and the rest of his family permanently and joyfully ceased to be “Palestinian” when “Palestine” ended. He was a religious Jew and an Israeli, and I am an agnostic Jew and an Israeli.

        So your acrobatics trying to reject your heritage under pretext of official citizenship has definitely documented that heritage as very Palestinian

        I embrace my Jewish national heritage and lengthy lineage in Ereṣ Yisra’el, don’t be silly .Try to read more carefully.

        Also, your trying to correct Mooser’s Yiddish is more than ridiculous. He knows it much better than yourself

        He used words derived from Hebrew, the Jewish national language, and I’m trying to help him improve his skills in pronouncing Hebrew. There’s no reason for him to use his Leo Rosten-acquired Yiddish (and I wager as an ex-yeshiva student in Brooklyn that I actually have a better grasp of Yiddish).

      • Mikhael
        November 28, 2016, 6:58 pm

        Mooser November 28, 2016, 12:07 pm
        Mikhael, if you got married you could expound at, or even just sit and mutter to your wife. And she could say “Yes, dear, you are so smart! Such an expert!” Makes a guy feel good

        None of my exes ever told me that. I wonder if you’ve ever been married.

        “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

        Yup, that’s right, isn’t it. You got a good ol’ US anchor

        I have a good Israeli anchor, which provides me with peace of mind that I will always have a country of my own to return to. You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)
        But if the USA or Israel ever in future pass a law banning dual citizenship, there’s no doubt I’d have to forfeit my US passport.

      • RoHa
        November 28, 2016, 9:30 pm

        “if you’re really a Jew.”

        Technically, Mooser shouldn’t be a Jew. He was excommunicated a few years ago by a commenter called eee, but somehow it didn’t take. So now, in spite of all temptations from the goy denominations, he remains a Jewish man.

      • Mikhael
        November 29, 2016, 1:32 am

        talknic November 28, 2016, 8:41 am
        Mikhael November 27, 2016, 7:42 pm

        “Now, re-reading my comment, I will admit an error I made when I stated that ““[a]ll Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”. That was a mistake on my part, I should have written “the vast majority of Jews can claim deep roots in the country” rather than “all.”

        Indeed

        I’m glad that we agree that indeed, the vast majority of Jews today can claim deep roots in Ereṣ Yisra’el (including most likely the descendants of the Kaifeng Jewish community).

        ” Your example of the Kaifeng Jewish community (or rather, the claimed descendants of the community who have re-embraced a Jewish identity, since the community effectively ceased to function some centuries ago) is, however, a very poor example of a group that has no Jewish ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el and indicates racist thinking on your part.”

        Typical Zionist in desperation ploy, make a completely unsupportable accusation

        If I misunderstood your intent in highlighting the descendants of the Kaifeng Jewish community as unlikely to be descended from ancient Jews who inhabited the Land of Israel because of their appearance, please correct me and explain how I misunderstood your intent in bringing up the fact that the Kaifeng Jewish descendants, were “very Chinese-looking” in response to my assertion that most Jews trace their origins to Ereṣ Yisra’el

        If my assumption was correct and your point was to suggest that they can’t be descended from Jews with deep ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el, solely because they are “very Chinese-looking”, then would you say that the Armenians of Burma, who are quite “Burmese-looking” can’t trace descent to Armenia after a few generations of intermarriage with native Burmese?

        http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28867884
        https://aiwasanfrancisco.com/2015/03/25/unexpected-encounters-armenians-in-burma/

        “Your characterization of them as “very Chinese looking”
        They don’t look Chinese? WOW!! I wonder if they know

        I don’t think it’s all that important to them. And within China there is a vast diversity of phenotypes, so there’s not one way to look Chinese. But I guess they all look the same to you.

        ” It does show a racist obsession on your part”

        Again with the nonsensical accusation.

        If it’s not indicative of a preoccupation with phenotypical “racial” characteristics, why did you bring it up?

        “… it’s a silly argument to make against Jews having a shared national identity”

        I didn’t make any such argument. Another false accusation on your part

        Okay, if you didn’t make such an argument, then you came up with a complete non sequitur for the hell of it. It’s apparent that I stated that “Jews around the world share common ancestry traceable to Eres Yisra’el” and you essentially countered with “But THESE Jews look Chinese”. Right. And so? How does the existence of “Chinese-looking Jews” disprove my contention?

        “I am in New York most of the year but I will probably be in ..etc etc etc”

        Proves exactly nothing.

        So let me know when you will next be in the Israeli capital (Jerusalem) and I will contact my relatives to host you and show you our family records.

        ” Your counterfactual and tiresomely tendentious argument that Israel’s borders are delineated only by the 1947 Res. 181 Partition Lines has nothing to with the current topic under discussion”

        Another false accusation.

        Your argument is counterfactual and tendentious and had nothing to do with the current topic under discussion. But since you like repetition, let’s do it again

        A) Israel’s Internationally recognized borders were proclaimed effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) by the Israeli Government

        No. The document you incessantly link to was not a declaration of borders by the Provisional Government of Israel (also, here’s a homework assignment for you, look up the word “provisional” when you get a chance). There’s nothing in the plain meaning of the text to support
        your interpretation.

        B) They’re Israel’s ONLY Proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders. They have everything to do with the current topic

        (1) Israel never proclaimed its borders at independence. (It’s not customary for newly formed states to do so.) (2) There is no binding international law that fixes Israel’s borders. (3) This allegation was not responsive to the present discussion anyway. Read back up the thread.

        ” My bringing up my ancestry was in direct response to “Mooser”‘s insinuation, that I, a scion of a family that has lived in the country for centuries somehow have a less right to live there as an Israeli Jew”

        You have no right to live in Palestine as an Israeli

        When and if an independent Arab state called Palestine is established for the first time in history, its future borders as yet to be determined, the government of that state and the government of Israel will need to work out an agreement regarding Israeli citizens who live on territory that will be under the sovereignty of that still-nonexistent state. Some of my family members live in a part of Samaria (Elon Moreh) which is likely to be ceded to a future Palestinian-Arab state and which was formerly under Jordanian control from 1949-1967 and in the event Israel cedes that area to a future state of Palestine, it will be determined between the two governments whether my relatives and other Israeli Jews have a right to live there. You have no say in this matter. However, until that day arrives, they have a right to live in that disputed territory, just as every Israeli citizen has a right to live in every part of Israel that lay on the former Israeli-controlled side of the former Armistice Line established that existed between Hashemite Jordan and Israel. It should go without saying (although you will no doubt repeat this nonsense, because you’re so predictable) that the never-implemented Partition borders are null and void and never represented the borders between a Jewish state and a never-declared Arab state within the former British Palestine Mandate west of the Jordan River.

      • Mikhael
        November 29, 2016, 3:04 am

        RoHa November 27, 2016, 12:48 am
        “Anti-Zionists are simpletons who believe in a binary world and who think that Jews, alone of all national groups, should be denied right to national self-determination in their original ancestral homeland.”

        I assume that by “national groups” you mean the sort of thing I call “n-nations”

        At the risk of falling into the trap of your nomenclature Jews collectively constitute more than what you call a”c-nation”. They do have a common ancestral territory where their national identity was forged that the present-day State of Israel exists on, even if it is not coterminous with it

        By general moral principles of equity, then, the decision and right (insofar as there is one) to set up the state is a matter for all the population of the territory

        You’re wrong. A national group living in a territory, whether you want to designate it an “n” nation or a “c” nation, has a moral right to set up a state in a region where it dominates. The Slovenians who lived in the former Yugoslavia had the right to secede and establish a state for themselves in the region where they dominated even without the consent of the rest of the population of the former Yugoslavia, and the Kosovar Albanians had the right to secede from Serbia and establish a state without the consent of the rest of Serbia, and the Abkhazaians and the Ossetians had the right to do the same in Georgia. The Jews of the former British Mandate of Palestine constituted more than 1/3 of the population of that entity and they had a right to govern themselves in the area where they were the majority. The Palestinian Arabs who currently constitute a majority of the population in the formerly Jordanian-controlled part of the former British Mandate as well as in formerly
        Egyptian-controlled Gaza also have a right to establish their own state in that area.

        But national groups are not necessarily co-extensive with the population of the territory. If the right to set up a state were vested in national groups, it would exclude some the population who, by equity, are entitled to it. Thus, the right cannot be a right of national groups

        Had the utopian Partition Plan been accepted by both sides (and not just one party) and implemented as envisioned in November 1947, it would have allocated to an Arab state regions of the former British Mandate where Arabs constituted a clear majority of the population and to a Jewish state regions where Jews constituted the majority population. That was the most equitable arrangement feasible at the time. Since it was rejected and never had a chance to be put into place, other solutions must now be considered.

        Let us look at my paradigm example: the Finns.
        The territory of Finland is largely inhabited by (national group) Finns, but it also includes Finland-Svensk and Sami. To say that the Finns, as a national group, have the right to set up a state is to say that the rights of the Finland-Svensk and Sami do not count

        The Finns had a right as a national group to set up an ethnic nation-state for themselves and a duty to extend civil rights to Sami citizens as well as citizens of other recognized national minorities living under that state’s jurisdiction. If national minorities are dissatisfied with the rights extended to them in a larger state, they have a moral right to secede and form their own state in the area if it is feasible in which they dominate.

        Now, you might want to reject this argument, claiming “the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland … is in fact intrinsic to Orthodox Judaism” but that is just to say that you, and Orthodox Judaism, reject the normal moral principles of equity

        My statement about the Orthodox Jewish attitude towards Zionism was directly responsive to “Mooser’s” insinuation that Orthodox Jews “sold out” their principles when most of them moved into the modern political Zionist camp.

        A majority of Israel’s citizens are Jews. A majority of those Jewish citizens desire that the state continue to define itself as a Jewish state by and for people who regard themselves as members of a Jewish nation (although there’s controversy within Israel about what that implies) and whom the state recognizes as fitting that description. Principles of equity won’t be served and conflict won’t be resolved by uselessly insisting that Israel shouldn’t exist as a Jewish state despite the clear wishes of the majority of its population. Principles of equity can be upheld by insisting that the Jewish State of Israel continue to extend the same legal and civil rights to its non-Jewish citizens as it extends to its Jewish citizens in the future, just as it has in the past.

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 8:14 am

        Poor poor Mikhael

        ” My father was only “Palestinian” from October 1932 until May 15, 1948 … when “Palestine” ended”

        No matter how many times you repeat bullsh*t it’s still bullsh*t. The Israeli Government claimed it was fighting in and occupying non-Israeli territories “in Palestine” May 22nd 1948. http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk

        “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

        Bullsh*te! You were born in America in 1970. You could not have had Israeli citizenship until you immigrated to Israel

        “I have a good Israeli anchor, which provides me with peace of mind that I will always have a country of my own to return to.”

        The US is your first country, not Israel

        ” You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)”

        The Naziesque nature of Zionism shows thru

        “But if the USA or Israel ever in future pass a law banning dual citizenship, there’s no doubt I’d have to forfeit my US passport”

        Good for the US

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 11:34 am

        “None of my exes ever told me that.”

        Well, “Mikhael”, it’s the kind of thing a wife says, not an ex-wife. You have to be able to keep them.

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 11:41 am

        .” So now, in spite of all temptations from the goy denominations, he remains a Jewish man.”

        Yes, “RoHa”! When you’re a Jew, you’re a Jew all the way! From your first little bris, til they cart you away!

        BTW, “Mikhael” I discovered the key to a happy marriage years ago. It’s simple. When my wife tells me I’m smart, I never ever contradict her. Of course, I don’t want to be smug, but I did marry a genius.

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 12:20 pm

        Poor poor Mikhael November 29, 2016, 1:32 am

        “I’m glad that we agree that indeed, the vast majority of Jews today can claim deep roots in Ereṣ Yisra’el (including most likely the descendants of the Kaifeng Jewish community).”

        You’re delusional. I agreed you made the error you admitted making

        “If I misunderstood your intent… etc”

        You made an unsupportable accusation and no amount of your blabbering will change it

        “Okay, if you didn’t make such an argument …”

        = I didn’t make an argument against Jews having a shared national identity. I made an argument against what you later admitted was a mistake on your part

        “So let me know when you will next be in the Israeli capital (Jerusalem) and I will contact my relatives to host you and show you our family records”

        = A) You’ve proven nothing B) Jerusalem is not in Israel. UNSC res 476 – 1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem ;

        “The document you incessantly link to was not a declaration of borders by the Provisional Government of Israel.”

        It’s not my interpretation you poor poor fool. It’s the official plea for recognition, and it is a declaration of frontiers by the Provisional Government of Israel. Here it is, verbatim

        “… the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law.”

        ” (also, here’s a homework assignment for you, look up the word “provisional” when you get a chance). There’s nothing in the plain meaning of the text to support your interpretation.”

        Save your stupid comments pal. You’re way out of your depth. Read the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel you stupid stupid person

        We declare that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People’s Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People’s Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called “Israel.”

        The provisional Government was the only legal Government Israel has ever had. No Government has ever been elected under the promised constitution.

        “(1) Israel never proclaimed its borders at independence. “

        OK Have it your way.
        They lied about UNGA res 181 being binding http://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/UNISPAL.NSF/0/02EA8C2370F7C75C85257656006775C1 “As far as the Jewish people are concerned, they have accepted the decision of the United Nations. We regard it as binding, and we are resolved to move forward in the spirit of that decision. “
        They lied about UNGA res 181 in the Declaration of Statehood http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm “On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.”
        They lied in their plea for recognition

        You must be so proud to support such blatant liars

        ” (2) There is no binding international law that fixes Israel’s borders.”

        Israel was recognized as requested according to International Law. Recognition is irrevocable. http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897#art6

        ” (3) This allegation was not responsive to the present discussion anyway. Read back up the thread.”

        The Zionist Federation decided to colonize Palestine 1897, there has been senseless war and bloodshed ever since

        “When and if an independent Arab state called Palestine is established for the first time in history … blah blah”

        Irrelevant. Whatever lay outside of Israel’s self proclaimed frontiers was not Israeli and has yet to become Israeli by agreement. You have no right to live in Palestine as an Israeli

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 12:56 pm

        Poor poor Mikhael November 29, 2016, 3:04 am

        // “By general moral principles of equity, then, the decision and right (insofar as there is one) to set up the state is a matter for all the population of the territory”//

        “You’re wrong. A national group living in a territory, whether you want to designate it an “n” nation or a “c” nation, has a moral right to set up a state in a region where it dominates.”

        Not if it dominates by war or any coercive measures http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897#art11

        “The Jews of the former British Mandate of Palestine constituted more than 1/3 of the population of that entity and they had a right to govern themselves in the area where they were the majority.”

        They had no right to dispossess non-Jews from the area where they were a majority and they had no right to dispossess non-Jews from territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

        ” The Palestinian Arabs who currently constitute a majority of the population in the formerly Jordanian-controlled part of the former British Mandate as well as in formerly
        Egyptian-controlled Gaza also have a right to establish their own state in that area”

        PLUS in territories the Israeli Government itself claimed were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” and that have yet to become Israeli by legal agreement

        “Had the utopian Partition Plan been accepted by both sides (and not just one party) .. blah blah “

        Nonsense. The plan was for “either” party to declare Independent Statehood. Independence is by its very nature unilateral. There was no provision in UNGA res 181 where the two parties were required to co-sign.

        This was acknowledged by the Jewish AgencyFriday, 19 March 1948 Rabbi Silver replacing Mr. Shertok at the Council table as representative of the Jewish Agency for Palestine stated

        “We are under the obligation at this time to repeat what we stated at a [262nd meeting] meeting of the Security Council last week: The decision of the General Assembly remains valid for the Jewish people. We have accepted it and we are prepared to abide by it. If the United Nations Palestine Commission is unable to carry out the mandates which were assigned to it by the General Assembly, the Jewish people of Palestine will move forward in the spirit of that resolution and will do everything which is dictated by considerations of national survival and by considerations of justice and historic rights.”
        “The setting up of one State was not made conditional upon the setting up of the other State.”

        And again:
        Security Council S/PV.271 19 March 1948 The representative of the Jewish Agency, Rabbi Silver:

        The statement that the plan proposed by the General Assembly is an integral plan which cannot succeed unless each of its parts can be carried out, is incorrect. This conception was never part of the plan. Indeed, it is contrary to the statement made by the representative of the United States during the second session of the General Assembly. The setting up of one State was not made conditional upon the setting up of the other State. Mr. Herschel Johnson, representing the United States delegation, speaking in a sub-committee of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question on 28 October 1947, stated, in discussing this very matter in connexion with economic union: “The element of mutuality would not necessarily be a factor, as the document might be signed by one party only.”

        ” Since it was rejected and never had a chance to be put into place etc etc”

        Irrelevant. Whatever lay outside of Israel’s frontiers was quite simply NOT Israeli and under International Law could not be acquired by any coercive measure http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897#art11

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 1:24 pm

        ” You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)” “Mikhael”

        Yeah, yeah, I get it. “SandraLLAP” already set me straight on the whole “refuge for Jews in Israel” thing. That was just a way of getting money out of the diaspora, but not something you have the slightest intention of honoring. Got it.

        Is it every Zionist’s ambition to be a Kastner? So what’s it gonna cost me to get on the train?

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 1:34 pm

        “There’s no reason for him to use his Leo Rosten-acquired Yiddish (and I wager as an ex-yeshiva student in Brooklyn that I actually have a better grasp of Yiddish).”

        I bet you do! You could probably annihilate me. So, patsh zich in tuchis und schrei “hooray”!

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 1:48 pm

        “My statement about the Orthodox Jewish attitude towards Zionism was directly responsive to “Mooser’s” insinuation that Orthodox Jews “sold out” their principles when most of them moved into the modern political Zionist camp.”

        Sorry about the multiple comments, but I can’t let this go.
        “Mikhael” I have stated, unequivocally and repeatedly, that if the Orthodox think they deserve all the credit for Zionism, I wouldn’t think of standing in the way, or denying them any of the glory for it. In fact, I urge them to step out and claim it and declare Zionism’s congruence with Orthodox religious beliefs.

      • echinococcus
        November 29, 2016, 2:18 pm

        Michael,

        common ancestral territory where their national identity was forged

        We’re still waiting for proof of “ancestral territory” and “national identity”. Been waiting much longer than you have been alive.

      • echinococcus
        November 29, 2016, 2:24 pm

        Talknic,

        Whatever lay outside of Israel’s frontiers was quite simply NOT Israeli and under International Law could not be acquired by any coercive measure

        You’ve got it all bassackwards.
        Whatever lays inside whichever of “Israel”s imaginable frontiers is quite simply NOT Israeli and under international law can be reclaimed by any coercive measure, being an illegal colonial imposition that violates the UN Charter.

      • talknic
        November 29, 2016, 8:31 pm

        @ echinococcus “You’ve got it all bassackwards”

        We’ve covered this ground before. Israel exists, legitimate or not, whether we like it or not. As such it has legal obligations

        “Whatever lays inside whichever of “Israel”s imaginable frontiers is quite simply NOT Israeli … “

        In the same manner as majority adoption of a convention or legal custom sees that convention or legal custom passing into Customary International Law, recognition, especially by the majority of the International Comity of Nations, is irrevocable, whether we like it or not AND whether Ziomorons like it or not :-)

        “… under international law can be reclaimed by any coercive measure, being an illegal colonial imposition that violates the UN Charter.”

        Correct even according to the Ziofavourites Schwebel/Lauterpacht http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y#Schwebel

      • RoHa
        November 29, 2016, 11:47 pm

        ” A national group living in a territory, whether you want to designate it an “n” nation or a “c” nation, has a moral right to set up a state in a region where it dominates.”

        Do you have an argument to back up that claim?

        “The Jews of the former British Mandate of Palestine constituted more than 1/3 of the population of that entity and they had a right to govern themselves in the area where they were the majority.”

        The overwhelming majority of the population of the Palestine did not want the country to be sliced up. They wanted a single, democratic state with full civil rights for all the inhabitants. This would have meant that Jews in Palestine were as self governing as everyone else.

        This equitable arrangement was rejected by the Zionists. In setting up Israel they infringed the rights of the majority of the population, and brought bloodshed and misery to the region.

      • Mikhael
        December 1, 2016, 6:40 am

        talknic November 29, 2016, 8:14 am
        Poor poor Mikhael

        ” My father was only “Palestinian” from October 1932 until May 15, 1948 … when “Palestine” ended”

        No matter how many times you repeat bullsh*t it’s still bullsh*t. The Israeli Government claimed it was fighting in and occupying non-Israeli
        territories “in Palestine” May 22nd 1948.

        So stop repeating bullshit. The document you constantly link to is not a proclamation of the extent of Israel’s boundaries by the then provisional government of Israel, nor a recognition (implicit or explicit) of any state called Palestine, but an answer detailing where Jewish forces were deployed within the former Mandate territory.

        “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

        Bullsh*te! You were born in America in 1970. You could not have had Israeli citizenship until you immigrated to Israel

        You’re so ignorant, that you don’t even know what you don’t know.
        Children born abroad to Israeli citizens are deemed Israeli citizens from birth.It’s all spelled out in plain Hebrew right here:

        א)
        אלה יהיו, מיום לידתם, אזרחים ישראליים מכוח לידה:
        (1)
        מי שנולד בישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים;
        (2)
        מי שנולד מחוץ לישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים
        https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA

        “I have a good Israeli anchor, which provides me with peace of mind that I will always have a country of my own to return to.”

        The US is your first country, not Israel

        At the time of my birth, my parents were on temporary student visas. Despite being born in Boston, I was actually registered by my parents with the Israeli Consulate as an Israeli citizen soon after I was born, well before they ever troubled themselves to get a US passport for me.

        ” You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)”

        The Naziesque nature of Zionism shows thru

        More histrionic hyperbole from the unhinged.

        “But if the USA or Israel ever in future pass a law banning dual citizenship, there’s no doubt I’d have to forfeit my US passport”

        Good for the US

        Not really. They’d lose another taxpayer (US citizens who live and work outside the US, whether they hold an additional passport or not, are required to file, and if necessary, pay USS income tax), which is why they the US doesn’t look too kindly on US citizens voluntarily renouncing US citizenship.

      • YoniFalic
        December 1, 2016, 12:37 pm

        I have to correct one of Mikhael’s comments.

        Mikhael states the following.

        Children born abroad to Israeli citizens are deemed Israeli citizens from birth.It’s all spelled out in plain Hebrew right here: – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/11/daughters-annihilation-intermarriage/#comment-173772

        Mikhael only quotes part of the law.

        Here is the full critical section. (The formatting is probably not exactly correct.)

        (2)
        מי שנולד מחוץ לישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים

        (א)
        מכוח שבות;
        (ב)
        מכוח ישיבה בישראל;
        (ג)
        מכוח התאזרחות;
        (ד)
        לפי פסקה (1);
        (ה)
        מכוח אימוץ לפי סעיף
        4(ב)(1)

        The situation of a person born to Israeli citizen parents in 1970 was complex.

        Until recently such a person received citizenship by returning to settle in Israel if both parents were Jewish. If both parents were non-Jewish, such a person received citizenship by birth.

        This legal interpretation prevented a person from inadvertently violating military service law if he were born and resided outside of the country and if he would be subject to mandatory military service if he were treated as a citizen from birth.

        Recent cases have made the citizenship issue more complex.

    • Marnie
      November 20, 2016, 12:21 pm

      Agree, agree, agree. Thank you.

  17. Mikhael
    November 24, 2016, 11:30 pm

    re This may all seem like a bizarre anti-miscegenation religious-nationalist fringe aberration, one which would be funded by donations from extremists

    This is a religious-nationalist fringe abberation, it is not in any accurate sense of the word an “anti-miscegenation” campaign. The people involved in groups like “Hemla” or “Lehava” are religious fundamentalists who are opposed to Jews (whether men or women) abandoning a Jewish religious identity, which often happens in the context of intermarriage. Anti-miscegenation activists, would, by definition, be opposed to people of different “races” marrying each other. Leaving aside the fact that there is no significant marked “race” difference between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel, religious fundamentalist Jews in organizations like Hemla would be quite pleased if Arab Muslim husbands of Jewish women accepted Judaism and agreed to raise the children of such marriages as Jews.

    When such unusual events occur religious fundamentalist Jews in Israel wax triumphant and there is no lamenting of any “miscegenation. ”

    http://www.aish.com/sp/so/The-Muslim-Spy-who-became-a-Jew.html

    http://www.aish.com/sp/so/70138567.html?s=raw

    • Mooser
      November 27, 2016, 1:43 pm

      Mikhael, you don’t need to worry about any of this!

      2 billion Jews make their own race! And, even if the gender-split is a little weighted toward the distaff, there’s still plenty of Jewish men to go around.

      • Mikhael
        November 29, 2016, 1:39 am

        Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:43 pm
        Mikhael, you don’t need to worry about any of this!

        2 billion Jews make their own race!

        How is “race” pertinent to this discussion?

      • Mooser
        November 29, 2016, 12:28 pm

        “How is “race” pertinent to this discussion?”

        “Mikhael”, if 2 billion Jews want to call themselves a “race”, have you got a way to stop them?

        “Race”, “a people”, “a religion”, it doesn’t matter what you call them. 2 billion people is a lot, and can do almost anything they want!
        And look at the rate of growth! Less than 18 million just a few months ago, and then to 180 million, and finally (I rounded up to make “Dabakr” happy) 2 billion! Not to mention the political, religious and spiritual discipline and unity of this 2 billion strong race!

        If I were you, I would call that burgeoning (and with a median 18-26 age, prime military) and restive people whatever they want, and finish it off with “sir” or “ma’am”!

  18. Ossinev
    December 1, 2016, 12:05 pm

    @Mikhael
    “The Arabs who fled during Israel’s independence war (mostly of them on their own accord)”.

    Total and utter bollocks. This one tedious ludicrous perverted Zionist claim invariably highlights the brainwashed amongst supposedly “liberal” Zionists.
    Its known as Nakba Denial and it is is right up there alongside Holocaust Denial.

    To use your own words please refrain from “repeating bullshit”.

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