Israel’s efforts to erase Palestinian history reflect ‘incremental genocide,’ Ehrenreich says

Middle East
on 73 Comments

Ben Ehrenreich, author of The Way to the Spring, the chronicle of heroic resistance to occupation in a Palestinian village, spoke at Columbia’s Center for Palestine Studies a week ago, and described Israel’s treatment of Palestinians as an “incremental genocide.”

A questioner asked about the Movement for Black Lives statement saying Palestinians are experiencing “genocide,” and asked Ehrenreich, would you agree? The author said he did.

 

The question about genocide– yes, it’s an incremental genocide. And I think that’s a word that gives a lot of people pause and it certainly should. We don’t see the absolutely mass slaughters, although in Gaza I think we’ve seen something very much like it that we usually associate with genocide. But– the attempts to erase a people, to just erase them, to erase their history, I think follow a logic that can only be called genocidal. I mean, every time someone says– and people say it all the time, I get it on twitter all the time– “There’s no such thing as a Palestinian,” or “There was nobody there when the Zionists arrived”– these are genocidal statements, these are attempts to erase a culture, erase a history, decimate a people and I think they should be recognized as that.

Moderator Colm Toibin, the Irish novelist, pushed back, saying, that’s a very very loaded thing to say from the Israeli side, and difficult to accept, in the context of the Holocaust and European genocide. “I’m very uneasy about letting this go without questioning you one more time… I wonder if there’s another word you could use. I’m just uneasy about it.”

Ehrenreich elaborated:

You should be and we all should be. It’s an especially painful thing to talk about, given the history of the Holocaust, and as someone with a Jewish background, it’s extremely painful for me to use that word. It’s more painful to see those realities, and those historical ironies are brutal. I mentioned the Balfour Declaration because I think this always has to be put into a colonialist context. Israel is a settler colonialist society, and the one things that settler colonialist societies have in common is that they follow a genocidal logic. The one we’re living in right now. Every single one of them– South Africa, Canada, the United States, Australia, and Israel: places where settlers came in and declared the land theirs and did everything they could to either remove the people who were already there or so erase their history that they could pretend that they weren’t there.

Hatim Kanaaneh asked Ehrenreich how it was that American mainstream publishers put his article and book out. Ehrenreich said that things have shifted “quite a bit in terms of US public opinion. None of this is reflected in the actions of our politicians.”

He then observed that this is the issue that is “most tightly controlled” in our media, and he was “shocked” when the New York Times Magazine sent him to cover the resistance in Nabi Saleh, in that historic cover article of 2013 explaining why Palestinians have a right to throw stones.

I was shocked that the New York Times Magazine wanted to send me to a small West Bank village to write a story that was exclusively from the perspective of the people who lived there. And I think slowly, as long as I’ve been writing about this, I am sort of constantly seeing cracks in the wall, because there has been I think more than any other issue in the U.S., this is the one where the narrative is most tightly controlled, where certain perspectives are just not allowed in, Palestinian perspectives, that is. And that has shifted…. During the primary season, this issue was suddenly an issue that it was possible to talk about, which it never was in other election seasons in this country.

I’d add that anti-Zionists are also marginalized, including Jewish ones. And Ehrenreich’s observation about the narrative being most tightly controlled on this issue– wonderful. It inevitably raises the issue of the Jewish Zionist presence in the establishment, along with the shadow of the Holocaust as a muzzle on non-Jews’ willingness to express their opinions. Bernie Sanders said there was a war for the soul of Islam. There’s also a war for the soul of Judaism; and it involves Zionism.

 

 

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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73 Responses

  1. Citizen
    February 9, 2017, 1:27 pm

    Something has to be done about the bias in the US mainstream media on this issue. Hopefully, Trump’s attack on said media will eventually allow in this bias regarding Israel. How does one crack the 6 mega-corporations who R gatekeepers on 90% of what public hears re news? Trump could do it, but He’s listening to his Zionist business partners like Friedman & his son-in-law.

    Fox news is supposed to be the rebel in main media, but it’s pure hasbara on anything involving Israel, e.g., on the show Outnumbered, all the female panelists
    never touch on the subject of occupation, apartheid, settlements, land theft, slow ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hannity, of course is rabidly Zionist in his every comment, etc. O’Reilly never touches the subject. And so it goes–Vonnegut

    • Jasonius Maximus
      February 12, 2017, 10:59 am

      The answer is social media. Even the big media outlets are now slaves to social media. In their attempt to remain relevant they are now leaning heavy on Twitter to garner favor with a younger audience. Which is exactly he audience that BDS is gaining traction with.
      In fact, this very weekend, the perfect opportunity has just presented itself with the NFL propaganda tour debacle…

      http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/12/middleeast/nfl-players-boycott-israel-trip/

      I suggest taking to Twitter and getting as many of your friends and family to tweet at the players and the teams they represent listed and call them out for being useful stooges of the racist Apartheid regime in Israel. It’s outrageous that so many black players who identify with BLM are happily being used to whitewash an Apartheid regime for nothing more than a free trip to the holy land. Martin Luther King Jr., Muhammad Ali, Nelson Mandela are turning over in their graves! While their fellow NFL players, like Colin Kaepernick, must be sick to their stomachs at the though of their peers playing along with the Israeli government!

      In short the more noise generated on social media around this issue, especially so close to the latest Super Bowl, the more the media will be compelled to report on the issue and force average Americans to question exactly what is going on over there.

  2. Maghlawatan
    February 9, 2017, 1:30 pm

    Israel’s efforts to wipe the Palestinian nation off the pages of history continue to be incompetent. They have already broken Judaism , They have been forced to brainwash Jewish Israelis at the price of their educational potential and they have destroyed the vast majority of Israel’s diplomatic capital. And then there is the insane settler project which brought all the Palestinians in the OT onto the balance sheet. As Maimonides wrote in his letter to the Malik of Granada, FFS. So Jews are now a minority in Eretz Israel Hashlemah.

    • Mooser
      February 9, 2017, 8:35 pm

      “They have already broken Judaism”

      Who can you say that? Look, a religion can be fixed up any old time, but Holy Land they ain’t making any more of!

      And just think of the cred, as Judaism extols its premier accomplishment of the Twentieth Century, wiping out the Palestinians as a polity.
      Why people will rush to shake hands with us in the street, and offer their daughters in marriage.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 10, 2017, 7:57 am

        * intermarriage

  3. CHUCKMAN
    February 9, 2017, 3:54 pm

    What Israel has been doing here is indeed ugly.

    It even goes farther.

    Israel has appropriated many traditional Palestinian products – oranges, cous-cous, etc – and now calls them by Israeli names.

    However, I do object to the use of the word “genocide” in this context.

    It represents a terrible misuse of language.

    What Israel has done and is doing is bad enough without such misused language.

    It all boils down to a national policy of theft – theft of names, theft of places, theft of homes, theft of even produce.

    I think that is a sufficiently strong charge to make, a national policy of theft.

    • Mooser
      February 9, 2017, 8:37 pm

      “I think that is a sufficiently strong charge to make, a national policy of theft.”

      Yes, but then one looks at the legal and ethical definition of “genocide” and that plea-bargaining becomes a little ridiculous.

    • oldgeezer
      February 9, 2017, 10:58 pm

      @Chuckman

      That is fine for the peoperty offenses. It is indeed organized theft. Backed up by illegal laws and criminal minds.

      Reducing the past, present and future of millions of Palestinians to such a phrase reduces them to be mere articles of property.

      They aren’t. That should be self evident to any human.

      They are forxex oit. Their past is erased. They are prevented from creating a present through an intricate web of property and military laws. They are forced out yet agaain. Further and further away. Smaller and smaller ghettos. Their future is stunted by control and strangulation of their economy while the oppressors crow what a miracle they have conceived. All tbe while grinding their heels into the necks of their victims.

      Their victims don’t exist. They never have. If they majority has their way they never will. They have no rights and if they are to ever gain rights the oppressor will be the arbiter of which ones. Bht whatever rights they are permitted they will not be entitled to control their future or even provide for their own protection. Not just the rights but the wants of the suppressor reign supreme. They will have to move again. Homes destroyed as building permits are refused. People living in rubble in many cases.

      No the Palestinians are not property. They are people. Equal to all other people. Their oppressors have no right to control, and deny, their lives and livelihood.

      Look up the definitions of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

      There is organized theft and has been for half a century but this is text book genocide. The population count is not relevant when their history, culture, etc are not merely being denied but destroyed. A smart genocide. Slow enough to slip under the radar but genocide nevertheless. Performed by some of the most cold hearted calculating racists that the world has seen. This is the face of evil.

    • echinococcus
      February 10, 2017, 2:51 am

      Chuckman,

      All you have to do is to read the definition in the International Convention against genocide
      (https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume%2078/volume-78-i-1021-english.pdf) before you embarrass yourself. It was written by Lemkin himself (look him up), the guy who coined the word.

      The purpose was, theoretically, not to wait until the last victim is burned or otherwise disappeared and then say “ooh, too bad!” The convention was drafted for the purpose of intervening in time.

      Of course, no state party is intervening except as a good pretext to commit aggression. Somebody must have forgotten to send the memo saying that the veto-power-wielding powers will only do so to justify their wars of aggression, and that victims who happen to inhabit land wanted by our allies (like, say, Palestinians or Armenians or younameit) don’t count as human.

      In fact, the colonial powers and the perps themselves use the same exact argument as you do to discredit news of genocide being committed.

    • Elizabeth Block
      February 10, 2017, 10:14 am

      i was in Palestine last March, with Christian Peacemaker Teams. You don’t have to be a Christian! (I’m Jewish.) Who knew?
      We were briefed by (among others) a woman from the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, who said she doesn’t used the word “genocide” to describe what is happening now. Why not? She is waiting for when it starts.

      • echinococcus
        February 10, 2017, 11:17 am

        Elizabeth,

        The genocide operation was prepared with the British-sponsored Zionist pirate invasion. It became a serious operation before and during the crime of partition, it’s gathered speed since the 1967 aggression and it’s continuing uninterrupted, with episodic turkey shoots and substantial mass murders –mass expulsion being almost impossible now that the NaZionists have all the land.

        It may be like, past time to wake up and realize what is going on for that House Demolition volunteer. Otherwise we’ll be saying “too bad” after the ovens have turned cold –or whatever their local equivalent turns out to be. She should read the Convention.

  4. JLewisDickerson
    February 9, 2017, 4:53 pm

    RE: “I mentioned the Balfour Declaration because I think this always has to be put into a colonialist context. Israel is a settler colonialist society, and the one things that settler colonialist societies have in common is that they follow a genocidal logic. The one we’re living in right now. Every single one of them– South Africa, Canada, the United States, Australia, and Israel: places where settlers came in and declared the land theirs and did everything they could to either remove the people who were already there or so erase their history that they could pretend that they weren’t there.” ~ Ehrenreich

    Discovery doctrine
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_doctrine

    [EXCERPT] The Discovery doctrine is a concept of public international law expounded by the United States Supreme Court in a series of decisions, most notably Johnson v. M’Intosh in 1823. Chief Justice John Marshall justified the way in which colonial powers laid claim to lands belonging to foreign sovereign nations during the Age of Discovery. Under it, title to lands lay with the government whose subjects travelled to and occupied a territory whose inhabitants were not subjects of a European Christian monarch. The doctrine has been primarily used to support decisions invalidating or ignoring aboriginal possession of land in favor of colonial or post-colonial governments.

    The 1823 case was the result of collusive lawsuits where land speculators worked together to make claims to achieve a desired result.[1][2] John Marshall explained the Court’s reasoning. The decision has been the subject of a number of law review articles and has come under increased scrutiny by modern legal theorists.

    History

    The Doctrine of Discovery was promulgated by European monarchies in order to legitimize the colonization of lands outside of Europe. Between the mid-fifteenth century and the mid-twentieth century, this idea allowed European entities to seize lands inhabited by indigenous peoples under the guise of discovery. In 1494, the Treaty of Tordesillas declared that only non-Christian lands could be colonized under the Discovery Doctrine.

    In 1792, U.S. Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson declared that the Doctrine of the Discovery would extend from Europe to the infant U.S. government. The Doctrine and its legacy continue to influence American imperialism and treatment of indigenous peoples.[3]

    Johnson v. M’Intosh

    The plaintiff Johnson had inherited land, originally purchased from the Piankeshaw tribes. Defendant McIntosh claimed the same land, having purchased it under a grant from the United States. . .

    ALSO SEE:
    The Doctrine of Discovery, 1493https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/imperial-rivalries/resources/doctrine-discovery-1493

  5. pabelmont
    February 9, 2017, 7:19 pm

    As to “holocaust” and the misuse of language. See also “genocide”.

    We should not let these bozos get away with pretending that the use of “holocaust” is patented, copyrighted, etc.

    Well, it may be said that there was only one “TheHolocaust”(tm) in which six million European Jews were killed by Germans etc. (And no one else s/b mentioned as “killed”, only Jews.).

    But there have been many “holocausts” including that by Pol Pot in Cambodia against his own people, Rwanda, Boznia, maybe China if you count the killing of the pre-communist propertied class.

    Each is different, even as every “murder” is different. And yet we have only one word, “murder” to cover many different kinds of acts. And “manslaughter” to cover somewhat similar but somewhat different acts (w.r.t. intention to kill).

    And we have only one word “terrorist” although we have many words for types of armed groups: armies, paramilitaries, militias, gangs, mercenaries, “private military company” (Blackwater, Xe Services), thugs, terrorists, security forces, and probably others. But every act of “terrorism” is different. Israel has called killing soldiers “terrorism”. Others, I believe (am I wrong?) use “terrorism” to mean killing civilians — and then only when the killing is done by non-army folks. (Under some definitions, and there are many, even within the USA’s statutes, terrorism is usually (but I believe not always) said to be an act of a non-army (or non-state).

    So with a few words and so many meanings (holocaust, genocide, murder, terrorist), we should not let these bozos get away with pretending that the use of “holocaust” is patented, trademarked, copyrighted, and may be used only to refer to “TheHolocaust” ™.

    • Misterioso
      February 9, 2017, 8:12 pm

      Speaking of Holocausts, I wish the mainstream media would occasionally remind us of what was in fact the worst mass slaughter of humans in modern history. I am referring to the systematic murder of about 10 million Congolese by “Christian” Belgian colonists during the latter part of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries when King Leopold II ruled Belgium. He was the founder and owner of what was then known as the Congo Free State. (One of the first people of note to refer to this holocaust was Samuel Clemens, aka, Mark Twain.)

      The unspeakable horrors Belgium inflicted on the natives of the Congo, which also included amputations of arms below the elbow and beheadings, were prompted by pure greed and chronic racism, i.e., to force them to work like slaves in order to harvest natural rubber on rubber tree plantations, which prior to the invention of the synthetic version, was in huge demand in Europe and America to manufacture tires for the burgeoning automobile industry.

      Written by Adam Hochschild and published in 1998, “King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror and Heroism in Colonial Africa,” provides an excellent source to learn about King Leopold II and his atrocious crimes against humanity.

      • RoHa
        February 9, 2017, 8:52 pm

        Congolese? Sorry, wrong sort of people. Don’t count.

      • just
        February 9, 2017, 9:57 pm

        Here’s a link:

        https://ghb67.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/african-holocaust-king-leopolds-belgian-congo/

        Genocide, Holocaust… ethnic cleansing. Remember this?

        “”Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner”

        Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun
        With a Thompson gun for hire, fighting to be done
        The deal was made in Denmark on a dark and stormy day
        So he set out for Biafra to join the bloody fray

        Through sixty-six and seven they fought the Congo war
        With their fingers on their triggers, knee-deep in gore
        For days and nights they battled the Bantu to their knees
        They killed to earn their living and to help out the Congolese

        Roland the Thompson gunner…

        His comrades fought beside him – Van Owen and the rest
        But of all the Thompson gunners, Roland was the best
        So the CIA decided they wanted Roland dead
        That son-of-a-bitch Van Owen blew off Roland’s head

        Roland the headless Thompson gunner
        Norway’s bravest son
        Time, time, time
        For another peaceful war
        But time stands still for Roland
        ‘Til he evens up the score
        They can still see his headless body stalking through the night
        In the muzzle flash of Roland’s Thompson gun
        In the muzzle flash of Roland’s Thompson gun

        Roland searched the continent for the man who’d done him in
        He found him in Mombassa in a barroom drinking gin
        Roland aimed his Thompson gun – he didn’t say a word
        But he blew Van Owen’s body from there to Johannesburg

        Roland the headless Thompson gunner…
        The eternal Thompson gunner
        still wandering through the night

        Now it’s ten years later but he still keeps up the fight
        In Ireland, in Lebanon, in Palestine and Berkeley
        Patty Hearst heard the burst of Roland’s Thompson gun and bought it”

        http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/warrenzevon/rolandtheheadlessthompsongunner.html

        RIP

      • RoHa
        February 9, 2017, 11:41 pm

        And with the second Congo war and the CAR civil war, we might be able to top Leopold’s score. But, as I said, no-one really cares.

      • jd65
        February 12, 2017, 12:41 pm

        @ RoHa:

        “Congolese? Sorry, wrong sort of people. Don’t count.”

        “And with the second Congo war and the CAR civil war, we might be able to top Leopold’s score. But, as I said, no-one really cares.”

        Yes. The wrong sort of people. I usually don’t do this kind of thing on this board, but your point reminded me of a similar point (the same point, maybe?) Dave Chappelle made in one of his stand-ups. In my mind, brilliant:

    • echinococcus
      February 10, 2017, 6:10 am

      Well, the term is better than trademarked or copyrighted; at any rate its history of use has made it so without registration. I wouldn’t be surprised a bit if it was also registered with the patent office but that would be entirely unnecessary. Just as Aspirin has become aspirin by dint of massive use and replaced its generic name, “holocaust” has become “Holocaust(TM)”, guaranteeing a direct connection to the Holocaust Industry (look it up.)

      As you well know, language being a social consrtuct dependent on consensus, the only solution that avoids a definitely established connotation is to avoid the discredited term. We have perfectly functional terms in English to describe the phenomenon even better. Like “genocide”.

  6. uh...clem
    February 9, 2017, 8:54 pm

    I notice the phrase “incremental genocide” is in quotes. I think it comes from the Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, who now teaches at the University in Exeter in the UK. At least I recall him using it about three years ago when he came to speak at the University of Victoria in B.C.

  7. Boris
    February 10, 2017, 12:31 am

    When everything is genocide nothing is genocide.

    • eljay
      February 10, 2017, 9:04 am

      || Boris: When everything is genocide nothing is genocide. ||

      When everything is anti-Semitism and “Jew hatred”, nothing is anti-Semitism and “Jew hatred”.

    • Talkback
      February 10, 2017, 4:38 pm

      Boris: “When everything is genocide nothing is genocide.”

      That’s a false inversion. Nobody argued that everything is genocide. To the contrary. It was quite specific. It is about erasing a people/culture. And the fact that it doesn’t happen at a high rate is irrelevant.

  8. talknic
    February 10, 2017, 3:39 am

    For the record

    Israel is a UN Member State, bound to the UN Charter in its entirety, including the UN definition of Genocide

    Article II. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: a) Killing members of the group; b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    Article III. The following acts shall be punished: a) Genocide; b) Conspiracy to commit genocide; c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; d) Attempt to commit genocide; e) Complicity in genocide.

    Article IV. Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

    Article V. The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give affect to the provision of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or of any of the other acts enumerated in Article III.

    Article VI. Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article III shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

    • jd65
      February 13, 2017, 1:39 am

      Article V. The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions… effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide…

      I guess that lets Israel off the hook.

  9. btbLondon
    February 10, 2017, 9:12 am

    Personally I dissent from Ehrenrich and prefer to describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinians as Sociocide – the attempt to stop Palestinians seeing themselves as a self-regarding and self-organising polity. But that is second order – what is most important is that the spreading adoption of the IHRA (mis)definition of antisemitism would attempt to prevent either of us expressing our analysis, defining us both as antisemites. Thus silencing legitimate voices and debate.

  10. James Canning
    February 10, 2017, 1:08 pm

    Trump apparently thinks Sheldon Adelson is a good source of advice on how to proceed regarding IsraelPalestine. Adelson claims the Palestinians are “invented”.

  11. Boo
    February 10, 2017, 1:20 pm

    He says “incremental genocide” — I say “Slowlocaust”(tm)

  12. diasp0ra
    February 10, 2017, 2:01 pm

    Thanks for the report. It sounds like it was quite an interesting session.

    I also lean towards the idea of incremental genocide. Ethnic cleansing, after all, is a subset of genocide. The logic that makes Israelis plant thousands of trees to hide emptied and destroyed Palestinian villages, to wipe every trace of our existence, is the same logic that Israelis utilize today when they selectively apply their laws.

    I feel like people see this “huge” word and get tense about it, given its history. Jean Bricmont speaks about this, but in relation to American imperialism:

    “The expression may seem shocking, but what ought to be much more shocking is the relative indifference in the face of those crimes and that they are seldom perceived as the result of systemic policy. The impact of the Rwandan tragedy or of Hiroshima on public consciousness is no doubt due to the fact that each of these slaughters took place within a short period of time. But if a system of domination regularly produces so much death and suffering, is the horror any less just because it stretches over a longer period of time? ”

    If we look at the big picture, we are seeing a whole people being erased. Is it less of a genocide because it happens over 100 years?

    However, I tend to find that using this term often diverts attention from what is being discussed. Israel should 100% be called out for it. But, sometimes we need to think more strategically.

    I have witnessed many debates which were going very strongly in the favor of Palestinians, this was then completely derailed because of the use of this word. The whole debate turned into a discussion of the term, its origins, and if it really applies.

    • echinococcus
      February 10, 2017, 3:23 pm

      Diaspora,

      It’s not the term genocide that diverts attention away from the problem but Zionist propaganda and its effects on most participants to discussions. If not this term, any other pretext will be used to throw any discussion off its rails.

      There is no difference due how fast an entire people is exterminated and all traces of its culture and presence buried and forgotten. Speed is very variable as we all know and it can all be done very quickly –in an unfavorable international conjuncture.

      It seems way more important to acquaint the listeners with the significance of all the activity that constitutes a genocide alongside wholesale murder, like erasing the culture and all signs of the presence of the owners of the land by the force of arms and of propaganda; to make clear to all that there is a major international convention that defines genocide, not some romantic Hollywood concept; finally to prove that the US, nobody else, is the major obstacle to applying the convention. A little insistence may solidify the term in public opinion.

      • diasp0ra
        February 10, 2017, 7:48 pm

        @echinococcus

        Zionists in general excel at whataboutery and diversion from the point, I realize this. it is one of their main tactics. But the term genocide remains a very loaded term for everyone, and while I agree with you it must become more normalized, I’m afraid we sometimes have to read the room a bit.

        This is my experience at least.

      • jd65
        February 14, 2017, 6:44 pm

        @ Diasp0ra:

        “Zionists in general excel at whataboutery and diversion from the point, I realize this. it is one of their main tactics… However, I tend to find that using this term often diverts attention from what is being discussed. Israel should 100% be called out for it. But, sometimes we need to think more strategically.”

        One hundred percent agree w/ this. If the point is to get people to understand the fact that Palestine and the Palestinians are being screwed by Israel and the U.S., using terms or analogies that give Zionists/Israel First-ers any opportunity to derail a discussion and distract folks who are less knowledgable about the situation is a bad idea. Unfortunately, the term genocide falls into this category. And, for me, the other big one is the Nazi comparison. However legit the comparison, it is completely unnecessary and nothing but a distraction. Never useful…

      • Mooser
        February 15, 2017, 8:18 pm

        “However legit the comparison, it is completely unnecessary and nothing but a distraction. Never useful”

        Don’t worry about the words, Video does the job even better.

      • jd65
        February 16, 2017, 12:41 pm

        @ Mooser:

        “Don’t worry about the words, Video does the job even better.”

        Am I supposed to know what this means?

      • Mooser
        February 16, 2017, 4:57 pm

        “Am I supposed to know what this means?”

        Try and picture it for yourself.

      • jd65
        February 16, 2017, 6:36 pm

        @ Mooser:

        “Try and picture it for yourself.”

        Picture what?

      • Mooser
        February 16, 2017, 7:45 pm

        “Picture what?”

        Oh, all the things that aren’t genocide, and all the things which cannot be compared to the Nazis.

      • jd65
        February 16, 2017, 10:59 pm

        Ok, Mooser. Whatever you say. Enjoy…

  13. asherpat
    February 10, 2017, 4:36 pm

    Incremental: adjective. increasing or adding on, especially in a regular series.

    How exactly the rising number of Muslims between Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea falls under “Incremental genocide”? Perhaps the word you were looking for was “Reverse” or “Faux”?

    • diasp0ra
      February 10, 2017, 7:54 pm

      @asherpat

      What does the number of Muslims have to do with anything?

      We’re Palestinians, we come in all shapes and forms and religions. Perhaps if you’d like to look at the ever increasing number of home demolitions in areas C, Jerusalem and the south, you’d realize that there is a clear policy of demographic gerrymandering. Hell, the Gafni commission of Jerusalem outright decided that Jerusalem should have no more than a 25–30% population of Palestinians, after it was in the 90s.

      It’s no accident that the criteria of your objection was overall number between the river and the sea, with absolutely 0 mention of how certain areas are literally being slowly ethnically cleansed of Palestinians. Um Al Hiran is a prime, fresh example.

      It’s quite simple: Literally every corner of what is today called Israel has a destroyed Palestinian village underneath it. They have been utterly obliterated and removed from memory by your national parks and forests. There is a clear disappearance of the indigenous population from this area, just ask the surrounding countries about the millions of refugees that fled from there.

      Are you being obtuse on purpose?

      • asherpat
        February 11, 2017, 2:39 am

        @diaspora, please don’t insult me first. Secondly, be precise in your comments – “Um el Khiran” isn’t “Palestinian”. Wikipedia defines it as a “Bedouin village”. Since when Bedouins “Palestinians”? Perhaps since 1964 – the year that the “Palestinian” nation was invented (please explain why the GA resolution of 1947 didn’t partition the Land of Israel into a Jewish state and “Palestinian” state, then we will talk).

        I get it, “Palestinians” are those who want to vanquish any non-Muslim sovereignty in the Middle East! So count-in not only the Bedouins but also the Sudanese and Somali migrants, etc – Coullounah Palestiniyun” (sorry, Falastiniyun – the only ‘nation’ in the world that can’t pronounce its own historic name properly, LoL!)

      • diasp0ra
        February 11, 2017, 9:44 am

        @asherpat

        Please do yourself a favor and learn to differentiate between a group of people existing and their national identity. Even if they identified as melons, they still existed there and lived there before Israel saw the light of day. Nations change how they identify, Prussians became Germans, does this mean “German” is a fake nationality that never existed? Please.

        You’re the only person bringing up Muslims in this context. Like I said, we’re diverse and include every religion and ethnicity. It’s a civic identity.

        “the only ‘nation’ in the world that can’t pronounce its own historic name properly”

        Not sure if you’re being serious with this right now, but if you are, I sincerely apologize for wasting the 30 seconds it took to write up this response. No wonder you are losing the PR battle and Israel is becoming more of a pariah state every day.

      • Talkback
        February 12, 2017, 4:05 am

        asherpat: “Since when Bedouins “Palestinians”?”

        Since 1925, when the Palestinian citizenship was legally established. You don’t know that, because you and many others never legally aquired Palestinian citizenship pre 1948. and therefore had no right to determine Palestine’s future after 1948.

        asherpat: “Perhaps since 1964 – the year that the “Palestinian” nation was invented …”

        In 1964 the definition of a “Palestinian” was altered, but not “invented”. The new definition excluded Jews who immigrated during mandate times (and their descendants) and only included native Jewish Palestinians.

        asherpat: “(please explain why the GA resolution of 1947 didn’t partition the Land of Israel into a Jewish state and “Palestinian” state, then we will talk).”

        The resolution didn’t partition “The Land of Israel” which is not even a legal term for a country. The resolution RECOMMENDED the partition of PALESTINE into a state for Jewish Palestinians and one for Arab Palestinians.

        And no, we won’t “talk”, because you are going to chicken out and then repeat your nonsense somewhere else.

    • talknic
      February 10, 2017, 8:17 pm

      @ asherpat February 10, 2017, 4:36 pm

      “How exactly the rising number of Muslims between Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea falls under “Incremental genocide”?”

      Killing is not the only form of genocide. Israel is a UN Member State and bound to adhere to the UN definition of genocide

      Perhaps the word you were looking for was “Reverse” or “Faux”

      Let’s apply that to the Holocaust there are after all more Jews now than ever before.

      • asherpat
        February 11, 2017, 2:28 am

        @talknic – by your logic, the Holocaust must still continuing right now. Alternatively, the “genocide” of the faux-nation that can’t even properly pronounce the original name of their land as an example, by your logic, has ended many years ago.

      • talknic
        February 11, 2017, 5:16 pm

        @ asherpat

        “… by your logic, the Holocaust must still continuing right now”

        It’s YOUR logic that an increase in population proves atrocities didn’t happen

        ” Alternatively, the “genocide” of the faux-nation … “

        Strange. Palestine was a Nation State in accordance with the LoN Mandate for Palestine Article 7 (Palestinian Nationality Law was adopted 1925 per Article 7)

        ” that can’t even properly pronounce the original name of their land “

        Please attempt explain your weird theory without smearing yourself with even more ZioPoo

      • echinococcus
        February 12, 2017, 3:10 am

        Asher Pat

        the faux-nation that can’t even properly pronounce the original name of their land

        Yeah, like the “nation” of completely disparate “nationals” of a religion they don’t even believe, who had to invent an unnecessary language because not one of them could twist their Slavic, Turkic, Arab or Martian mouths to reproduce dead language Hebrew?

        Are you, like, typical of Zionist education products? Fact is, your thinking ability is practically the same as that of Narr, Hoppmi, Mayhem, Catalan, Fredman, etc. Shooting at own stinky foot.

      • Talkback
        February 12, 2017, 4:10 am

        It’s quite hillarious that asherpat uses the term “faux nation” when it comes to Palestinians.

        The Palestinian citizenship can be acquired since 1925. But nobody can become “Jewish” by acquiring a citizenship of any country. So much for “faux nation”.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 12, 2017, 1:35 pm

        The Hebrew r pronounced German style is such a giveaway. As is the Euro national anthem. 2000 year remote connection . Eternal capital my ass

    • Mooser
      February 11, 2017, 12:45 pm

      “How exactly the rising number of Muslims between Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea falls under “Incremental genocide”?”

      “asherpat” this may be a shock to you, but Muslims are under no obligation to stop having children because Jews can’t keep up.

      Also, you should take into consideration that the only Jews in the world Israel can coerce into going over a cliff, are those Israelis unable to leave Israel. And who would those Israelis without passport be? Mostly “Israeli Arabs” isn’t it? ROTFLMSJAO!
      The rest of us have no obligation to commit suicide because you want to.

    • Mooser
      February 11, 2017, 12:52 pm

      “What does the number of Muslims have to do with anything?”

      It’s not the number of Muslims he is concerned about, “diasp0ra”.
      It’s the number of Jews.

      Which seems like a problem that Jews would be happy, nay, eager, to try and solve for themselves, and certainly a lot easier than blaming others for having children.

  14. jd65
    February 11, 2017, 8:34 pm

    Weird question for anyone: A man enters the vid from the right side @ 10:25 – 30 and sits down. Is it Roger Waters? Not important, just wondering…

    • oldgeezer
      February 11, 2017, 10:05 pm

      @jd65

      It sure looks like him so good catch but I can’t say yes or no for sure. If it isn’t him then it has to be Ken Barlow.

      • jd65
        February 12, 2017, 12:32 pm

        Yup. It really does look like him. I’d love to meet the guy and talk to him about Palestine and Floyd.

        Barlow, eh? You’re crackin me up man…

  15. rafa santisteban
    February 12, 2017, 6:30 am

    No it’s not genocide. Thousands killed over the years. But not genocide – that’s just a lazy term, and as the replies here show, is counterproductive, producing unnecessary argument.

    We need a new term, and the meaning has already been suggested here., It’s

    “erasing a people and culture”/ “People removal”

    Israelis don’t really want to *kill* Palestinians (or they’d have done a much more chilling job). They want to erase them, remove them, drive them out. Much as Turkey wants to erase Kurds.

    Ethnic cleansing/ clearance – “genoclearance” (genodemolition) – to be symbolised by a visual of Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses (for the erection of settlements).

    Thoughts?

  16. The JillyBeans
    February 14, 2017, 5:37 pm

    I’ve referred to what is being done to the Palestinians as “administrative genocide”.

    These people are dispossessed and removed from their homes by administrative means. Then lands ending up in the Jewish National Fund, a government agency that controls the land – by a government which only seeks to retain control for only one group. Administratively wiping out any hold on the land other populations had, and making them orphans in a system that the judicial branch turns it’s back on repeatedly and other government agencies that enforce no laws that should protect all citizens and residents within Israel and it’s occupied territories.

    • Maghlawatan
      February 14, 2017, 6:34 pm

      If you go to Jaffa or Lod cultural genocide has already happened. The people are gone and so is the culture. It is the same in Poland. Jews used to live in Poland. Now the country is 99% catholic.
      Zionism is a brutal ideology. Given recent Jewish history what else could it be ?

      • Jackdaw
        February 15, 2017, 12:35 pm

        No Maghi.

        Lydda’s (Lod) residents fled their city after it became a battlefield in 1948. They fled ten miles, to what is now known as the West Bank.

        Jaffa’s residents fled after the Jews defeated the Jaffa Arab’s militias, and after Jaffa’s government collapsed. The majority the Arabs that fled Jaffa, were poor laborers who, after leaving Jaffa, returned to their villages in the hinterlands.

      • Talkback
        February 15, 2017, 5:07 pm

        Jackdaw: “Lydda’s (Lod) residents fled their city after it became a battlefield in 1948.”

        ROFL. Ever heard of the “Lydda Death March”? Yitzhak Rabin signed the expulsion orders: “The inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age …”.

        “Jaffa’s residents fled after the Jews defeated the Jaffa Arab’s militias, and after Jaffa’s government collapsed.”

        You mean that they fled, because Jaffa succumbed to Zionist terror. Biq question for you, Were they ever allowed to return? No? Then they were ethnically cleansed.

      • Jackdaw
        February 16, 2017, 1:35 pm
  17. traintosiberia
    February 14, 2017, 8:22 pm

    Lpng has been fed the diet of inventing of some inscrutable chemical process for Acetone manufacturing which made British crown cringe at the idea of not reciprocating .So they offered Palestine to the budding Zionist in the Balfour
    Now Dear Rothchilds is singing the correct tune –“The way it was achieved was extraordinary, he said. “It was the most incredible piece of opportunism. You had an impoverished would-be scientist, Chaim Weizmann, who somehow gets to England, meets a few people, including members of my family, seduces them, he has such charm and conviction, he gets to Balfour, and unbelievably, he persuades Lord Balfour, and Lloyd George, the prime minister, and most of the ministers, that this idea of a national home for Jews should be allowed to take place. I mean it’s so, so unlikely.” He also revealed for the first time the role of his cousin Dorothy de Rothschild, who acted as a critical go-between while still in her teens. Describing her as “devoted to Israel,” Rothschild said: “What she did, which was crucially important, was to connect Weizmann to the British establishment, and extraordinarily, she told Weizmann how to integrate, how to insert himself into British establishment life, which he learned very quickly.”

    Her letters, which are stored at Waddeston, detail her later dealings with a range of Zionist leaders, and her advice on the organisation of the Zionist Conference,” http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/rothschild/

    History was manufactured instead of Acetone and instead of allowing the winds of freedom from blowing to Arab land ,ethnic cleansing was ordered .

  18. Jackdaw
    February 15, 2017, 12:19 pm

    “Every single one of them– South Africa, Canada, the United States, Australia, and Israel ”

    Except that Jews had always lived in Eretz Yisroel. In fact, they had a Kingdom there for a while. Jews had repeatedly tried to return to Eretz Yisroel over the course of a millenium. Jews are the indigenous tribe of Eretz Yisroel and they’re not making any plans to leave any time soon.

    The white Europeans who colonized the Americas and South Africa, had a place to return to. Their colonies in Africa and the Americas mirrored their homes in Europe.

    The Zionists didn’t leave their ‘homeland’, and have no homeland to return to now.

    • Annie Robbins
      February 15, 2017, 1:04 pm

      Except that Jews had always lived in Eretz Yisroel.

      not the vast majority of them throughout history, no they did not.

      Jews had repeatedly tried to return to Eretz Yisroel over the course of a millenium.

      not the vast majority of them throughout history, no they did not.

      • MHughes976
        February 15, 2017, 5:24 pm

        Jewish people are a long-standing part of the population of what was once Canaan and became Palestine, never ever being generally known, not even for a short time, as the Land of Israel. It is quite right that no one should suffer any discrimination as to place of residence because of being Jewish, or because of not being Jewish – though I don’t expect Zionists to agree with the latter point. Palestine was for a short time, about 150 years, the Kingdom of the Jews, even then having a substantial non-Jewish element. Subsets of it were Jewish and Samaritan for longer periods, though why these facts should be regarded as so important for determining rights here and now I cannot imagine. Twentieth century Zionists came from no one metropolis, that is true, and are not colonists in the same way as the British in Massachusetts 1630. But many came from many places where they had been born and where they had full rights as enfranchised subjects of a sovereign power, as everyone else in those places did and as the Palestinians now, to the shame and disgrace of many, very much including successive governments of my dear country, do not.

    • eljay
      February 15, 2017, 1:15 pm

      || Jackdaw: … Except that Jews had always lived in Eretz Yisroel. … ||

      Correct: The indigenous population of geographic Palestine was comprised of both non-Jews and Jews.

      || … Jews are the indigenous tribe … ||

      Jews – people who choose to be/come and to hold the religion-based identity of Jewish – are citizens of countries all over the world including Israel.

      || … and they’re not making any plans to leave any time soon. … ||

      And yet some do leave. Go figure.

      || … The Zionists didn’t leave their ‘homeland’ … ||

      The ones who moved to geographic Palestine to become Israeli did leave their homelands. The ones who stayed in their respective homelands did not leave their homelands.

    • Mooser
      February 15, 2017, 3:31 pm

      “The Zionists didn’t leave their ‘homeland’, and have no homeland to return to now.”

      Finally, “Jackdaw” gets it!!!
      . Zionism, as you say, “Jackdaw” was simply a very cruel fraud on suffering Jewish people.

      On top of that, “Jackdaw” we have neither the people nor the resources to make those lies (that we left our “homeland” and are returning.) become a truth.

      I do want you to know, “Jackdaw” that I have never doubted that only 180 million Zionist Jews could accomplish all of that. Not a doubt in my mind.

    • Talkback
      February 15, 2017, 5:31 pm

      Jackdaw: “Except that Jews had always lived in Eretz Yisroel.”

      Native Jewish Palestinians from pre-mandate times were never a problem.

      Jackdaw: “Jews are the indigenous tribe of Eretz Yisroel …”

      Not Jews as such. Judaism has a history of thousand years of proselytism.

      “Jews had repeatedly tried to return to Eretz Yisroel over the course of a millenium.”

      Even being refugees it wasn’t their first choice. Why do you think the Zionist scum tried to sabotage any effort which would have allowed these refugees to find a new home outside of Palestine? These antisemitic monsters even kidnapped Jewish orphans who had allready found new parents.

      Read “State of Terror” by Thomas Suárez.

    • talknic
      February 15, 2017, 5:53 pm

      @ Jackdaw February 15, 2017, 12:19 pm

      “Except that Jews had always lived in Eretz Yisroel.”

      Strange, the Jewish scriptures tell us Jewish forefathers conquered the region.

      “In fact, they had a Kingdom there for a while”

      So what? The modern state of Israel proclaimed its borders effective May 15th 1948 at precisely 00:01 in order to be recognized. No other territory belongs to Israel. Certainly not territory acquired by war “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

      ” Jews had repeatedly tried to return to Eretz Yisroel over the course of a millenium”

      A few did. The majority didn’t. In Herzl’s lifetime he could have, but didn’t. The Zionist Federation wasn’t formed by people from the region. At the time it was formed they could have all moved to Palestine, bought land, attained citizenship, settled. They didn’t. Instead they loaned money at interest to poor Jews to go do the hard yards at the front lines, same as today. It’s called a pyramid scheme, it needs more and more territory to sell to more and more gullible Jews in order to survive. It’s a scam and the main target is still poor Jews

      ” Jews are the indigenous tribe of Eretz Yisroel “

      Who did King David conquer?

      “and they’re not making any plans to leave any time soon”

      So let ’em live in Israel, that’s what it’s for. Get out of all non-Israeli territories currently occupied by the Jewish State

      “The white Europeans who colonized the Americas and South Africa, had a place to return to. Their colonies in Africa and the Americas mirrored their homes in Europe.”

      Difference is … Israel is STILL colonizing and it’s colonizing non-Israeli territories.

      “The Zionists didn’t leave their ‘homeland’ “

      Strange, only one of the signatories to the Israeli declaration of statehood was from the region

      IOW you spout stupid illogical Ziopoop

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