New York TV stations smear Roger Waters– who praises BDS as ‘one of most admirable pieces of resistance world has seen’

Activism
on 77 Comments

Roger Waters brought his national tour to New York this week. Tonight he is on Long Island, and regrettably the New York media have given a platform to Israel fanatics to smear the songwriter/bassist. Local TV stations have passed on outrageous statements, that Waters is an anti-Semite and that Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is bigoted.

WABC reported:

Waters is an outspoken critic of Israel, and critics believe his message is bigoted…

Waters says he is not an anti-Semite and that his message is being misunderstood.

WCBS reports:

Waters supports economic sanctions against Israel, but denies he’s anti-Semitic.

Nassau County came out against the BDS movement but by then the contract for Waters’ appearance had already been signed…

This is hateful journalism. Waters’s “denials” of a charge that is not really a charge but a smear come across as hollow when screamers are given the opportunity to run down his character out of ignorance. And the journalists make no effort to report the other side: that Waters’s show has almost nothing to do with Palestine, and a whole lot to do with Donald Trump (who is portrayed as a pig and nincompoop) and that many justice groups support BDS, which is a nonviolent campaign aimed at ending discrimination and apartheid, very much like the South African BDS campaign of 30 years ago.

There is no suggestion here of what many on the left understand: Roger Waters is a leader, a rock star who has placed his magnificent reputation and career on the line for the sake of Palestinians. How many cultural figures would so such a thing? Very few. Yet Waters has staked his reputation again and again, and forced other musicians to take a stand. His stance is simply noble, especially when you consider the power imbalance.

Waters’s tour-de-force performance mentions Palestine once. One of the videos that screens during his songs — I think it was Dark Side of the Moon, I was in Brooklyn Monday night — shows the Israeli separation wall going through the West Bank. It zooms in on the wall for a few seconds, as an example of man’s cruelty to man’s fellows.

Waters explained that BDS is the voice of Rosa Parks and the Montgomery bus boycott, in the New York Times last weekend. And on Thursday he told Amy Goodman on Democracy Now! about the actual spirit of his show, and BDS:

But my show is all about the idea that if this—if this race, the human race, is to survive even the next 50 or 100 years, we need to start looking at the possibility of the transcendental nature of love, and we have to start looking after one another and recognizing our responsibility to others, which is what BDS is about, really.

That Democracy Now segment contrasted Waters’s courage with the cowardice of Rachel Maddow of MSNBC. It featured an excerpt of the documentary, the Occupation of the American Mind, which is frank about the role of the Israel lobby. Here’s Maddow, quoted during the Gaza onslaught of 2014:

It’s been a constant cycle of fighting between Israel and Hamas for the past several years in Gaza. And the fighting and the cause of the fighting feel terribly familiar, because this is basically a recurring war. And if it feels like déjà vu, feels like, “Ugh, I’ve heard all of this before,” you are right, because this really does keep happening, over and over and over again.

To which Rula Jebreal responds:

Rachel Maddow, the most important woman on MSNBC, the leader when it comes to politics, in six weeks of war, never mentioned the word “blockade,” “occupation,” “illegal settlements,” never mentioned the support that Congress have for Israel, unconditional amount of money, billions of dollars. What is that? What a disappointment! Our media operations, national media, is a scandal when it comes to Israel.

Waters was also pointed on the Israel Anti-Boycott Act, which would criminalize some forms of support for boycotting Israel.

WATERS: I’m really glad that [NY Senator] Kirsten Gillibrand has taken her name off it. She’s still against BDS, but almost certainly, she—almost certainly, she doesn’t know. She hasn’t traveled enough, though she did say—to her credit, she did say that she had a meeting with Netanyahu when on a visit to Israel. And she asked him a question of what was his plan for what should happen in the future. And he went, “Next.” You know?

SUT JHALLY [of the Media Education Foundation]: Well, because his plan is to never leave. His plan is to take over the entire thing.

WATERS: But they can’t say that.

Waters described the rise of BDS in the real context here: the utter failure of partition over 70 years, the failure of the international community to deliver on its promises of sovereignty to Palestinians. A farce, actually:

We’ve been asked by Palestinian civil society to join them in their struggle against the occupation of their land, let’s be clear, OK, land that was laid out in the U.N. resolutions in 1947 as land that should be for a Palestinian state. Whatever your feelings may be about the creation of the state of Israel or whatever, the U.N. decided that partition was a good idea, and whatever, OK? So—and it’s not happened. And as Sut just said, it’s been whittled away, piece by piece by piece, by illegal settlements. The land is slowly being stolen. The indigenous population, the Palestinian people, are being forced out, or the attempt is. Their resolve to protest their situation nonviolently, using something like BDS, is one of the most admirable pieces of resistance that we’ve ever seen anywhere in the world. You know, it’s quite extraordinary.

BDS is one of the most admirable pieces of resistance that we’ve ever seen anywhere in the world. What a great statement. And one that is underlined by Israel’s ferocity in opposing BDS, and in the supine US political establishment’s efforts to destroy the movement.

P.S. There is also no inkling in these TV reports of the bigotry of Waters’s critics. When a friend asked a demonstrator outside Barclays Center on Monday night– whose poster said that Waters wants Jews to leave Israel– what should happen to the Palestinians? this individual said, There are no such thing as Palestinians.

Jewish Defense League extremists outside Roger Waters show at Barclays Center Sept. 11, 2017.

Thanks to Marty Brod, Todd Pierce, and Scott Roth. 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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77 Responses

  1. marc b.
    September 16, 2017, 12:41 pm

    See linked JP article with further links to FBI reports of JDL extortion of Tupac and EZ.

    http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Files-show-FBI-suspected-JDL-of-extorting-Tupac

    • Emory Riddle
      September 17, 2017, 6:44 pm

      Isn’t holding up a sign in public accusing someone of being a “Jew hater” hate speech? Shouldn’t these folks be arrested?

  2. Citizen
    September 16, 2017, 1:02 pm

    So much for America’s freedom of speech, eh? You can knock your own government, but not the tiny foreign country of Israel.

    • Ms. Reality
      September 18, 2017, 8:06 pm

      huh? People knock Israel every day. Roger Waters hasn’t had a hit song in 30 years but he still gets in the media because of his Israel bashing. It’s the only way he stays relevant. But supporters of Israel also have freedom of speech to rebut his spurious claims.

      • John O
        September 19, 2017, 2:26 am

        So his live performances fill stadiums around the world solely because of “Israel bashing”?

      • DaBakr
        September 21, 2017, 3:21 pm

        @mr

        The far left is notorious for having skin as thin as tissue paper. jvp or bds, sip, etc could have been their screaming their heads off and MW would have been pleased with ANY coverage that would have mustered. just look at those photos of violent extreme jdl members. why weren’t they arrested? one of the typical ridiculous commenters here actually asked.

        Roger waters does not lack for publicity and I am fairly certain he is either backed by and possibly compensated by the billion dollar palestinian pr movement though I’m sure it’s as secretive and clandestine as any aipac venture could be.

      • Emory Riddle
        September 21, 2017, 6:36 pm

        “Roger waters does not lack for publicity and I am fairly certain he is either backed by and possibly compensated by the billion dollar palestinian pr movement though.”

        DaBakr gives us a wonderful example of projection. Wow.

      • DaBakr
        September 24, 2017, 12:21 am

        @er

        And you a perfect example of denial, guilt and so many inversions it would take days to illustrate.

        Suffice to say you have an opinion about Israel, Zionism and the I/p conflict. It is not the most popular of opinions among Jews and many Christians all over the world. but it is a legitimate opinion.

        You can try and convince other equally as informed (though you may dispute this) people who care about the I/p conflict and it’s resolution as much as you believe you do. There is evidence that the numbers of anti-zionist jews is growing and no doubt this is basically true. But before there is even a hint that these numbers will remain anything but mildly significant — our earth will be entering the phase of onslaught where we will all be dependant upon each other-regardless of religion, nationalism and indigenousness — simply to try and survive the coming onslaught of the beginning stages of climate warming.

        I believe Gaza will be getting an offshore port which Hamas will work with while denying they accept its lack of sovereignty publicly. Then Israel, Hamas and the PA will work on large desalination plants(or completing unfinished ones) as water will continue to be one of the main battles. Carbon reduction and more hi tech forest management to prevent increased natural fires and help fight intentionality set fires more quickly.

        And then, by the time 2100 is approaching the real fun will begin.*

        You might like or not like Sebastian Junger but his latest book is about tribalism and how humans were built to feel more meaning and generosity, less depression and suicide when surviving a war that has no allegiance to religion, race or nationality. While it does not exclusively focus on I/p it certainly bears relevance

  3. US Citizen
    September 16, 2017, 1:06 pm

    ” this individual said, There are no such thing as Palestinians.” Then what are they protesting for? It would make BDS a moot point. This alone highlights the idiocy of these ignorant fanatics.

    The definition of “Palestinian” in the Oxford English:
    adjective: “relating to Palestine or its peoples”.
    noun: “a member of the native Arab population of the region of Palestine”.
    Native Arab = Indigenous people

    I’m surprised they didn’t dredge up more ridiculous rhetoric including the classics like “A land without a people, for a people without a land “ My favorite: “There was never a -state- called Palestine” – they stick the word ‘state’ in there like it proves their worthless point.

    This one is especially entertaining, it clashes so wonderfully with other Israeli talking points. In the end it amounts to “We are under existential threat from the people who don’t exist.”

    And I don”t watch Maddow anymore, she just another MSM Israeli shill and hack for AIPAC. Shame on her.

    • genesto
      September 18, 2017, 12:16 pm

      Rachel just doesn’t want to lose her highly popular show. That’s all. It’s very simple. It’s really the same as Gillibrand not wanting to torpedo her chances to be president in 2020, or even my representative, B.Lee, to not want to risk becoming a pariah in the Democratic Party by denying military aid to Israel while it uses the money illegally to buy weapons to use against the Palestinian people.

      Unfortunately, it takes someone like Roger Waters, whose fame, wealth and international reputation allow him to stand up to the Israel lobby and not worry about having his career destroyed, to speak truth to the lobby’s power. And there aren’t a whole lot of Roger Waters running around!

  4. oldgeezer
    September 16, 2017, 2:45 pm

    The signs read that waters denies Israelis human rights. So risible. The only people who are having their rights denied are the Palestinians and it is Israel doing that.

    And as we’ve seen they have reached the stage where they are publicly discussing genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

    • MalcolmLeftly
      September 16, 2017, 3:47 pm

      Kirsten Gillibrand
      I think the Sen. knows that while treading lightly she must position correctly on BDS.

    • Ms. Reality
      September 18, 2017, 8:07 pm

      Jordan also denies rights to Palestinian Arabs. Why does Roger Waters never say a word about that?

      • Bandolero
        September 18, 2017, 10:03 pm

        I think it may have to do something with the fact that Jordan has an Israeli puppet government, aka King Playstation.

      • talknic
        September 19, 2017, 1:57 am

        @ Ms. Reality September 18, 2017, 8:07 pm

        “Jordan also denies rights to Palestinian Arabs. Why does Roger Waters never say a word about that?”

        A) Cite some instances … thx Remember, all full citizens of Jordan are Jordanian BTW

        and

        Name a country that gives all citizen rights to non citizen residents and/or refugees and/or illegal immigrants … thx

      • eljay
        September 19, 2017, 7:17 am

        || Ms. Reality: Jordan also denies rights to Palestinian Arabs. … ||

        Shame on you for singling out Jordan, the world’s only Jordanian state. Clearly you have a problem with Jordanians.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 7:29 am

        @talknic

        Name a country that gives all citizen rights to non citizen residents and/or refugees and/or illegal immigrants

        The United States. It doesn’t have the concept of permanent non citizens. Every refugee in the United States must by law start the LPR process after being here for one year so as to normalize their status and prevent the creation of long term ethnic populations of non-citizens.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 8:51 am

        @Eljay

        I’m going to keep trying.

        Shame on you for singling out Jordan, the world’s only Jordanian state. Clearly you have a problem with Jordanians.

        The Jordanians don’t consider themselves a nation, they consider themselves a monarchical state that offers citizenship. That is why Circassians, Armenians, and Kurds can be fully part of the Arab / Bedouin state and fully part of the society providing they agree to live in accord with Hashemite / Bedouin culture. In particular the Palestinians when they rebelled against the state were crushed but when they agree to follow the law are allowed to participate. The queen (a saintly woman) is Palestinian.

        So sorry joke doesn’t work at all. Analogy doesn’t hold up.

      • Talkback
        September 19, 2017, 9:12 am

        JeffB: “Every refugee in the United States must by law start the LPR process after being here for one year so as to normalize their status and prevent the creation of long term ethnic populations of non-citizens.”

        You don’t have a problem, with “long term ethnic populations of non-citizens” when they are Non Palestinian Jewish settlers which illegaly immigrated and settled in occupied Palestine, right?

      • eljay
        September 19, 2017, 9:48 am

        || JeffB: @Eljay

        I’m going to keep trying. … ||

        And you’re going to keep failing.  :-(

        || … So sorry joke doesn’t work at all. … ||

        Joke? I don’t see what’s amusing about the fact that Jordan is the world’s only Jordanian state.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 12:09 pm

        @Talkback

        You don’t have a problem, with “long term ethnic populations of non-citizens” when they are Non Palestinian Jewish settlers which illegaly immigrated and settled in occupied Palestine, right?

        There are no non-Palestinian Jewish settlers outside of annexed territory and Area-C. So your claim such a situation is happening is as we’ve discussed before, while quite popular is a tortured abuse of language. As for Area-C I support resolving this through annexation of Area-C and the granting of full Israeli citizenship to all residents of Area-C normalizing the situation.

      • Talkback
        September 20, 2017, 10:42 am

        Me: “You don’t have a problem, with “long term ethnic populations of non-citizens” when they are Non Palestinian Jewish settlers which illegaly immigrated and settled in occupied Palestine, right?”

        JeffB: “There are no non-Palestinian Jewish settlers outside of annexed territory and Area-C.”

        There are non-Palestinian Jewish settlers within occupied or illegaly annexed territories of Palesetine. And you don’t have a problem with “long term ethnic populations of non-citizens” within occupied Palestine as long as they are Jewish.

        JeffB: “So your claim such a situation is happening is as we’ve discussed before, while quite popular is a tortured abuse of language.”

        You can’t hide your racist driven hipocrisy with your perversion of the situation, JeffB.

        JeffB: “As for Area-C I support resolving this through annexation of Area-C and the granting of full Israeli citizenship to all residents of Area-C normalizing the situation.”

        Of course you support the illegal annexation of more land while Isarel tries to get rid of its natives by demolishing their homes and preventing all Palestinians to access the natural resources of their land which Israel enabling an illegal access for Jews that vioolates international law. It#s like you said before: “And if you want to call that Nazi policy I’ll happily stand with the Nazis on that issue.”

      • JeffB
        September 20, 2017, 12:05 pm

        @Talkback

        t#s like you said before: “And if you want to call that Nazi policy I’ll happily stand with the Nazis on that issue.”

        I most certainly did not say that about the issue you cited. Don’t deliberately misquote me.

      • MHughes976
        September 20, 2017, 12:46 pm

        I can’t see where anyone said ‘If you call that Nazi then I stand with the Nazis’ but there is an important logical point – that if you take a term in common use with a negative (or indeed a positive) connotation and define it in your own way so that it applies firmly to a particular act it is possible that the normal connotation has ceased to apply.

      • Mooser
        September 20, 2017, 3:31 pm

        ” Don’t deliberately misquote me.”

        It isn’t possible. You have said everything and its opposite. At interminable length, too.

  5. JWalters
    September 16, 2017, 8:00 pm

    Sounds like a media monopoly in action.

  6. JosephA
    September 16, 2017, 8:22 pm

    The Roger Waters interview on Democracy Now was priceless.

    • Arby
      September 18, 2017, 7:14 pm

      I was unceremoniously dumped halfway through my comment. Any way, I was going to say that Waters has NO PROBLEM with human rights. To each their own, as it should be. I hate all organized religion. And so does God. So what? In the meantime, I think you should be free to believe as you wish, as long as it doesn’t lead you to do terrible things to others in the name of your god or religion. Also, I can hate your religion without hating you. A lot of people probably hate their own religion, but don’t see it as worth their time dwelling on it. A lot of Americans hate the US government and that’s actually because they ‘care’ about Americans and those who are affected by racist, violent US government foreign policy.

      The issue is whether you’re a terrorist or not.

  7. Sally Parker
    September 16, 2017, 10:19 pm

    Jewish Voice for Peace and Not in My Name need to start stealing Israel’s best thunder. How about screaming this, “We’re Jewish. Everyone who disagrees with us is anti-Semitic. All of the occupation is anti-Semitic.”

    • CigarGod
      September 17, 2017, 9:43 am

      Breaking out of the mould is a good idea.

      • Mooser
        September 17, 2017, 12:38 pm

        “Breaking out of the mould is a good idea.”

        I think that before they made me, they broke the mold.

      • CigarGod
        September 17, 2017, 1:12 pm

        I just overheard a Mondoweiss Mother ask her son, “Why can’t you be like Mrs. Moosers kid?”

      • Mooser
        September 20, 2017, 2:54 pm

        ” “Why can’t you be like Mrs. Moosers kid?”

        Um-be-rufen! Bite your tongue! I was a terrible trial to my mom. A mossik, a shaigetz ainer!

  8. Misterioso
    September 18, 2017, 9:35 am

    Video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzOWSF1vE4

    Roger Waters visits Michael Moore on Broadway – Sept. 15/17

  9. WebSkipper
    September 18, 2017, 12:25 pm

    And the guy in the first picture is wearing the symbol for peace, right? The emblem of the Kach (Kahane) followers. Even Israel has named them as a terrorist organization.

  10. Ms. Reality
    September 18, 2017, 3:51 pm

    Waters says “She’s [Kirsten Gillibrand] still against BDS, but almost certainly, she—almost certainly, she doesn’t know. ”

    Waters thinks he knows more about Israel than anyone who disagrees with him, whether it’s Senator Gillibrand or the members of Radiohead. He’s an arrogrant, obsessed man who has a history of being a bully and being wrong. He is strangely silent about a lack of civil rights around the world but incredibly vocal about tiny Israel. Clearly he has a problem with Jews.

    • Misterioso
      September 18, 2017, 5:51 pm

      @Ms. Reality

      You really should get out more.

      With each passing day, increasing numbers of people around the world, especially all important youth, including Jews, are seeing Israel for the racist, expansionist, oppressor, illegal/brutal occupier, ethnic cleanser, serial violator of international law it is.

      Why Do A Third of Israelis Want To Leave The Country?
      The Forward, March 22, 2017 By Naomi Zeveloff
      “A third of Jewish Israelis would leave the country if they could, according to a poll conducted by Masa Israeli, a group looking at the divisions of Jewish society in Israel.

      “It found that secular Jews were the most likely to want to emigrate, with 36% saying they would leave the country if they could. Orthodox Jews were the least likely to want to emigrate; only 7% said they would leave. The poll, which was reported by the Walla! news site, found that while 44% of secular Jewish Israelis identify as Israelis foremost, 83% of traditional and 90% of religious Jewish Israelis identify as Jews foremost.

      “The poll was conducted ahead of a conference called the “Israeli Journey to Change” in the Knesset which is looking for common ground in Israel.

      “ ‘The survey data indicates a problem with a sense of identity, connection and belonging to the people, to the land and to the state among a growing part of society in Israel and that reality already has created a rift and split in all of Israeli society,’ said Masa Israeli director, Uri Cohen.”

      http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.806869
      EXCERPT:
      “More Israelis Left Israel Than Moved Back in Six Year Record. 16,700 left and 8,500 came back in 2015, in first year since 2009 that more Israelis exited than returned.” By Lior Dattel. Aug 15, 2017, Haaretz.

      Also, support for Israel is in decline in the U.S., especially among youth. No surprise!!
      “Support for Israel on Campus Drops by ‘Devastating’ 27%: Study” – The Forward, June 21/17

      “The Brand Israel Group, a coalition of volunteer advertising and marketing specialists, has released a survey that shows a significant decrease in Israel’s approval rating among Americans.

      “’The future of America no longer believe that Israel shares their values. This is huge! Devastating,’” Fern Oppenheim, a co-founder of BIG, told The Times of Israel. While approval of Israel among American college students dropped 27% between the group’s 2010 and 2016 surveys, Israel’s approval rating among all Americans dropped 14 points, from 76% to 62%.”

      Furthermore, regarding the USA: http://forward.com/news/ national/376097/study-israel- losing-support-among- democrats-minorities- millennials/ The Forward July 2, 2017 ”Study: Israel Losing Support Among Democrats, Minorities, Millennials ‘It appears that the more Americans learn about Israel, the less they like it.’”

      Also, support for Israel among American Jewish college students is in decline:
      Times of Israel, June 21/17:
      http://www.timesofisrael.com/devastating-survey-shows-huge-loss-of-israel-support-among-jewish-college-students/

      Of the near one million Israeli Jews who have emigrated, thousands are moving to Germany, including Holocaust survivors who receive much better treatment there than in Israel.

      “[Shoah] Survivors’ protest makes foreign journalists gasp, security vanish” http://www.haaretz.com/news/survivors-protest-makes-foreign-journalists-gasp-security-vanish-1.226913.

      http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3388445,00.html
      “Shoah survivors forced back to Germany due to Israel’s lack of restitution laws” Ines Ehrlich Published: 04.16.07, 11:32 / Israel News
      EXCERPT: “Documentary shows Israel the worst place for Holocaust survivors to live throughout Western world. Hundreds protest outside Knesset, demand government help survivors with financial difficulties “Holocaust survivors have left Israel to live out the rest of their days in Germany due to the better conditions they receive there, according to a documentary program broadcast Tuesday night by Israel’s Channel 2 television.”

      GO ROGER GO!!!

      • Ms. Reality
        September 18, 2017, 7:51 pm

        @Misterioso – people have predicted Israel’s downfall since its creation but it goes from strength to strength – growing in Jewish population due to healthy birthrates and immigration from countries where anti-semitism endangers Jewish survival. The increasingly violent muslim population of France and rest of Europe has terrorized Jewish communities and forced them to move to Israel. In the meantime the Arab world is in a violent turbulence, still run by dictators.

      • Nathan
        September 18, 2017, 8:07 pm

        Misterioso – People are leaving Israel in tremendous numbers, as you pointed out. This process of exiting has been going on for one hundred years or so. After all, who would want to live in such a country under the threat of BDS, abandoned by American Jewish college students and outdone by the great social conditions of Germany? However, even though the state slogan is “the last one out is asked to turn the lights off at Ben-Gurion Airport”, and contrary to the rules of elementary mathematics – the Jewish population of Israel has grown from 60,000 in 1920 to 650,000 in 1948 and to 6,500,000 in 2017 (and the traffic jams are already quite unbearable). Isn’t it just the most frustrating and baffling phenomenon? You have brought to our attention quite a number of sources (thanks, and keep up the good work), but apparently there are some additional elements that you should have noted for us.

      • Misterioso
        September 18, 2017, 10:42 pm

        @Ms. Reality

        Israel: 60 years of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.
        Historic Palestine has known many invaders and occupiers. The Zionist venture will one of the briefest. Although it may yet be preceded by two states, the inevitable outcome is one state between the River and the Sea with an Arab majority.

      • Misterioso
        September 18, 2017, 11:01 pm

        @Nathan

        You neglected to note the all important fact that Palestinian Arab Muslims and Christians already outnumber Jews between the River and the Sea. Also, despite the dispossession and expulsion of well over one million Arab Palestinians (the native inhabitants of historic Palestine) between late 1947 and the end of 1967, non-Jews now constitute over 24% of Israel’s population (i.e., west of the green line) and are also the most rapidly growing segment.

        Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that in the past decade or so, ever increasing numbers of people around the world, including more and more enlightened Jews, are seeing Israel for what it truly is, i.e., a racist/apartheid/fascistic, expansionist oppressor, an illegal and brutal occupier and a thoroughly documented violator of international humanitarian law. Hence, it and Zionism, a racist 19th century colonialist ideology, are rapidly losing their allure for Jewish immigrants. No surprise!!!

        The world is sick and tired of Israel. The handwriting is on the wall. It comes as no surprise, however, that you and your ilk refuse to read it.

      • Misterioso
        September 18, 2017, 11:11 pm

        @Ms. Reality

        Needless to say, in my previous posting I meant to write “Israel: nearly 70 years of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.”

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 7:55 am

        @Misteroo

        “’The future of America no longer believe that Israel shares their values. This is huge! Devastating,’

        Get a grip. There is nothing devastating about it. Americans during the 1920s-1940s understood that the Zionist leadership as communist, that didn’t stop them from supporting it. The majority of American Jews now and then disagree with the central premise of Zionism, believing Jews are a religion or a people not a nation in exile (I want to clarify for Mondoweisser’s though that doesn’t mean they don’t believe Israeli-Jews aren’t a nation that anti-zionist leap is one they don’t share). Those Jews that are involved in Israel and travel their regularly know how different the country is than the United States. The idea that Israel should be any closer to the USA in its political orientation than India, Nigeria or Russia is a left European obsession where they think of Israel as a Western European country. There is nothing devastating in realizing that idea is poppycock. Most people do not share your imperialist orientation that wants to force the world into a bland sameness with no room for diversity. All that is happening is that some young people are realizing that Israel is actually a foreign country: they speak a foreign language, they have a foreign culture , and they do not share the same circumstances or history. This is no different than what one normally experiences with travel early in life. Some people learn to appreciate foreign differences and enjoy the experience, others hate those differences and cease traveling often.

        On top of that, objectively Israel because of its alignment with Western Europe and the USA has moved closer in values and behaviors to the USA today than it was at any point in time of the Zionist movement. The joke that Netanyahu is the “Republican Senator from Israel” is indicative of how close the alignment is at this point. One could never have made that joke about Ben Gurion. So if anything the differences are lessening with time.

        Anti-Zionism wants to kill Israel. I may disagree with my sister about lots of things. That doesn’t mean I want someone to kill her or wouldn’t defend her if someone did want to kill her. There is nothing devastating at all in Americans learning about Israelis as people and learning to appreciate Israel for what it is.

      • Talkback
        September 19, 2017, 9:09 am

        JeffB: “Anti-Zionism wants to kill Israel.”

        Like Anti-Nazism wanted to “kill” Nazi Germany. And Anti-Apartheid wanted to kill South Africa under Apartheid. What’s wrong with that? Regime change is a humane obligation when it comes to supremacist states that treat its citizens different because of their heritage or faith.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 12:24 pm

        @ Talkback September 19, 2017, 9:09 am

        JeffB: “Anti-Zionism wants to kill Israel.” Like Anti-Nazism wanted to “kill” Nazi Germany.

        Nope not at all like that. Anti-Nazism wanted regime change in Germany not the total destruction of Germany as a people, as a nation and as a culture. People objected, quite rightly, to the particular German government. But anti-Nazims never asserted that German territory should be swamped with foreigners, who would then forever govern the Germans permanently depriving them of any self determination. And that would only be if any survived at all.

        And Anti-Apartheid wanted to kill South Africa under Apartheid.

        Nope not like that one either. Anti-Zionism consistently harps on the Jewish immigration to Palestine in a way the Anti-Apartheid movement never did on the Afrikaner immigration. The Anti-Apartheid movement consistently used the language of genuine equality before the law for all. The anti-Apartheid movement rejected not supported your contention that where people could legally live in South Africa should be determined by their ethnicity. Anti-Apartheid declared a universal and welcoming South African identity. Mandela gave speeches in Afrikaans and consistently talked about their being one people in South Africa.

        No the anti-Zionist movement is nothing like that at. Not remotely similar. Your movement preaches nothing but hatred and darkness.

      • Mooser
        September 19, 2017, 12:45 pm

        ” “Israel: nearly 70 years of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.”

        Zionism: The Jewish people’s search for the small pond to be the biggest fish in.

      • Talkback
        September 20, 2017, 10:30 am

        Jeff B: “Nope not at all like that. Anti-Nazism wanted regime change in Germany not the total destruction of Germany as a people, as a nation and as a culture. ”

        Anti-Zionism wants regime change, too, and not the total destruction of Israel. Anti-zionists are not like Zionists who nearly destroyed all of Palestine as a CONSTITUIVE people, as a real nation.

        JeffB: “But anti-Nazims never asserted that German territory should be swamped with foreigners, who would then forever govern the Germans permanently depriving them of any self determination. And that would only be if any survived at all. ”

        Good point, JeffB! Anti-Zionists never asserted that Palestinian territory should be swamped with Jewish foreigners, who would then forever govern the Palestinians permanently depriving them of any self determination. And that would only be if any survived at all.

        JeffB: “The anti-Apartheid movement rejected not supported your contention that where people could legally live in South Africa should be determined by their ethnicity.”

        I knew that it wouldn’t take long for you to lie. It’s not even MY contention but international law that CITIZENS OF AN OCCUPYNG POWER are not allowed to settle in OCCUPIED territories. It doesn’t have anything to do with their ethnicity. Are you to stupid, dishonest or both that you have to constantly ignore this and distort my position?

        Your are only concern ed with rights that illegal settlers should have as long as they are Jewish, but not with the rights of the occupied Nonjews that these settlers and their settler state constantly violate to maintain illegal settlements and the illegal transformation or confiscation of Palestinian land into only-for-Jews state land. Why don’t you make a case for Nazis, too?

        And the fundamental difference between South Africa’s Apartheid and Israel’s Apartheid is that Afrikaners where not interested in conquering land only for themselves WHILE EXPELLING its natives. Afrikaners wanted to keep the natives segregated WHILE EXPLOITING them. It comes with no surprise that it is easier not to reject the presense of illegal settlers if INEQUALITY is the main issue and not EXPULSION, DENATIONALIZATION and ILLEGAL ANNEXATION. That’s why Israel’s Apartheid is worse than South African ever was.

        JeffB: “Your movement preaches nothing but hatred and darkness.”

        ROFL. Says the Zionist JeffB of all people whose movement preaches permanent ethnic cleansing, illegal annexation, illegal settlements, dispossession, confiscation, denationalization or revoking residency, disenfrenchisment and permanent inequality expressed as Jewish supremacism. Or to keep it short a “Jewish democracy”.

        Btw. I’m not an “anti-Zionist”. I’m and individual who is pro universal human rights and pro international law. Just the opposite of a mindless Zionist sheep like you who needs to accuse others of “hatred and darkness” because the expanding plank in your eye has started to penetrate your brain.

    • Arby
      September 18, 2017, 7:09 pm

      He may or not have a problem with Jews. I don’t know and it’s beside the point. He has NO PROBLEM with human rights. Which means that he would never consent to those who might want to silence Jews or any group, whether he agrees with their religious and/or political views or not. ‘That’ is the issue.

      • eljay
        September 19, 2017, 7:27 am

        || Arby: He may or not have a problem with Jews. … He has NO PROBLEM with human rights. ||

        And that makes him a big problem for Zionists, Zionism and their colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” project, all of whom/which despise the inconvenience of human rights.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 8:27 am

        @Arby

        He is a leading spokesperson for a movement that explicitly calls for the destruction and depopulation of whole Jewish cities and towns. He is a leading spokesperson for a movement that calls that all Jews lose their self determination and be permanently silenced through the destruction of their culture and society. And on a practical level his group has engaged in on going policy of harassment of Jews on college campuses for close to 20 years (and yes I know the BDS movement claims to be distinct form the earlier solidarity movement) designed to intimidate and silence them. So not only would he support silencing that he does support silencing.

        Now he may be too much of a political idiot to understand what he is advocating for.

      • Arby
        September 20, 2017, 10:26 am

        eljay: So right. But the Right knows how to use even human rights these days.

        JeffB: I’m just going to avoid you. You’re hysterical, like Netanyahu. And radioactive, like Chernobyl. We are going to have to agree to disagree on whether to support evil or embrace it.

    • JeffB
      September 19, 2017, 8:15 am

      @Ms Reality

      Oh I wish it were just that he hated Jews. The problem with Waters is that he is a political simpleton who completely fails to understand root causes of conflict. He has a lifetime of saying inane things about politics using music and structures that are so well constructed you can easily forget how stupid his actual points are. For example decades before his involvement in BDS:

      Us and them
      And after all we’re only ordinary men
      Me and you
      God only knows
      It’s not what we would choose to do
      Forward he cried from the rear
      And the front rank died
      And the general sat
      And the lines on the map
      Moved from side to side
      Black and blue
      And who knows which is which and who is who
      Up and down
      And in the end it’s only round ‘n round
      Haven’t you heard it’s a battle of words
      The poster bearer cried
      Listen son, said the man with the gun
      There’s room for you inside
      “I mean, they’re not gonna kill ya, so if you give ’em a quick short, sharp, shock, they won’t do it again. Dig it? I mean he get off lightly, ’cause I would’ve given him a thrashing – I only hit him once! It was only a difference of opinion, but really…I mean good manners don’t cost nothing do they, eh?”
      Down and out
      It can’t be helped that there’s a lot of it about
      With, without
      And who’ll deny it’s what the fighting’s all about?
      Out of the way
      It’s a busy day
      I’ve got things on my mind
      For the want of the price
      Of tea and a slice
      The old man died

      Nothing about Treaty of Versailles, the moves from monetarism to capitalism, decolonization and the emergence of a neo-liberal economics, the after effects of the Napoleonic wars… Rather this stupid analysis. And remember we are talking about the war that killed his father.

      What’s needed to discredit his nonsense is not protests but just a good interview where Roger Waters gets held to the standards of a policy analyst or at least a politician and not a rock star. He has gotten off far to light. I can remember something similar happening to Janeane Garofalo regarding the Iraqi war. 4 minutes of a real interview where she was being treated seriously and the whole edifice that she knew anything about American Iraqi policy and should be listened to collapsed.

      • Talkback
        September 19, 2017, 9:02 am

        JeffB: “Oh I wish it were just that he hated Jews.”

        No, you wish that he hates Jews, so you don’t need a brain to deal with his arguments.

        JeffB: “The problem with Waters is that he is a political simpleton who completely fails to understand root causes of conflict.”

        To the contrary. Like him every inteligent person knows that the root cause of this conflict is Zionism and its belligerent settler colonialism. And you know it.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 11:03 am

        @Talkback

        . Like him every inteligent person knows that the root cause of this conflict is Zionism and its belligerent settler colonialism. And you know it.

        BS. If we are talking my opinion the root cause of the conflict was the emergence of Arab Nationalism / Ba’athism as the dominant political ideology in the Arab world, and the Palestinian’s embrace of it. Without that pan-Arabism the Zionist project of setting up a homeland is successful in the 1920s. While there is some tension the original Palestinian attitude towards western Zionist settlers remains in place. A spirit of cooperation exists between the locals and new immigrants. As Hitler rises to power a voluntary / semi-forced migration to Palestine takes place rather than a mass extermination. Without pan-Arabism Palestine is a happy prosperous undivided country without severe ethnic tensions. Palestinian Islam and Judaism have merged into a hybrid faith. Intermarriage had bee the norm but now that the typical Israeli has both Palestinian and Jewish grandparents, even calling it intermarriage is becoming a stretch. And in terms of the neighbors the trains run regularly from Jerusalem and Jaffa (no ethnic tension means no Tel Aviv) to Amman, Beirut and Damascus.

        The conflict came about because of primitive tribal racists and antisemites winning the argument in Palestinian society about how to respond to Zionism.

      • Mooser
        September 19, 2017, 2:09 pm

        “The conflict came about because of primitive tribal racists and antisemites winning the argument in Palestinian society about how to respond to Zionism.”

        Be careful, “Jeff B”. You might want to remember that Tex Antoine lost his job for talking like that.

      • andrew r
        September 19, 2017, 9:20 pm

        While there is some tension the original Palestinian attitude towards western Zionist settlers remains in place.

        JeffB, we’ve already gone over two Herzl quotes where he expressed interest in military conquest of Palestine. That in itself is a good indication Herzl’s “Jewish” state would have persecuted non-Jewish persons. But he also wrote this gem in his diary:

        “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. The property-owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.

        “It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful example. At first, incidentally, people will avoid us. We are in bad odor. By the time the reshaping of world opinion in our favor has been completed, we shall be firmly established in our country,
        no longer fearing the influx of foreigners, and receiving our visitors with aristocratic benevolence and proud amiability.

        “The voluntary expropriation will be accomplished through our secret agents. The Company would pay excessive prices. We shall then sell only to Jews, and all real estate will be traded only among Jews. To be sure, we shall not be able to do this by declaring other sales invalid. Even if this did not run counter to the modem world’s sense of justice, our power would not suffice to force it through.”

        (Complete Herzl Diaries vol I p 88-89, 12 Jun 1895)

        So to get down to brass tacks, Herzl was being a hypocritical ass when he said persons of non-Jewish faith would be tolerated and their property respected, after suggesting the “penniless population” should be spirited across the border by denying it employment. Obviously this policy was going to be aimed primarily at non-Jews (although it’s possible poor Jewish Palestinians would’ve been affected as well), so you can’t deny Herzl premeditated persecuting non-Jewish persons in his Zionist state.

        What’s more, that last sentence is clearly an admission that Herzl knew he was advocating a policy that would be antithetical to those who sympathized with the plight of the Jews in Europe.

        And as if great minds didn’t think alike, what Herzl advocated here became the basis for the WZO-built kibbutzim/training farms (as distinct from those of the First Aliyah) which reserved membership for European Jews only and barred even Mideastern Jews. It was also the aim of the Mapai party that eventually founded Israel to gradually phase out employment of non-Jewish persons in the Yishuv economy.

        So you don’t have much of a basis for pretending the New Yishuv and the existing former Ottoman society were going to integrate without the interference of Arab Nationalism. No Zionist leader at the time was even taking that moral highground – they viewed the presence of non-Jewish persons in the hypothetical “Jewish” state as an obstacle, full stop, and wanted to create a separate society.

      • andrew r
        September 19, 2017, 9:40 pm

        p.s. As Hitler rises to power a voluntary / semi-forced migration to Palestine takes place rather than a mass extermination.

        You have a serious misreading of Zionist history if you think a Jewish Agency-ruled Palestine was going to take in enough Jews to forestall the Holocaust.

      • JeffB
        September 20, 2017, 9:01 am

        @andrew r

        You have a serious misreading of Zionist history if you think a Jewish Agency-ruled Palestine was going to take in enough Jews to forestall the Holocaust.

        I’m saying that if Hitler had been presented with a viable means of solving the Jewish question via deportation there wouldn’t have been a Holocaust at all. The Jewish agency would have had global support in their efforts. Moreover the process could have gone much slower. The speed of the mass extermination was driven by Hitler’s fear that time was running out. In the context of a semi-voluntary mass migration taking a generation wouldn’t have been unacceptable. Think about what happened in the Arab countries in the 1950s where the same kinds of anti-Jewish nationalist pressure started to build. In this case because Israel existed there was net emigration with prevented the pressure building up further and there was simply a mass evacuation not a mass extermination.

      • JeffB
        September 20, 2017, 10:19 am

        @andrew r

        So you don’t have much of a basis for pretending the New Yishuv and the existing former Ottoman society were going to integrate without the interference of Arab Nationalism. No Zionist leader at the time was even taking that moral highground – they viewed the presence of non-Jewish persons in the hypothetical “Jewish” state as an obstacle, full stop, and wanted to create a separate society.

        You haven’t shown anything of the sort. Hertzl himself said humanitarian and inclusive things throughout his career. I agree his writings are mixed but that’s what you showed they are mixed.

        If want Zionist leaders who clearly favored an integrated solution: Judah Magnes (founded Hebrew University), Albert Hyamson (diplomat), Arthur Ruppin (founded Tel Aviv), Hugo Bergmann (dean Hebrew University)… those people existed. The Yishuv prior to the violence of the 1920s was not dominated by the hardcore leaders we think of today. There was far more diversity and less organization. Militarization of the Jewish community forced greater unity, that militarization and thus the unity came from the violence. To use modern language, Palestinians radicalized the Jews, including the majority of Palestinian Jews who were not Zionist, and pushed them into the arms of more hardcore elements.

        More importantly this plan started to fail in 1927 with the citrus boom. The Yishuv 1927-36 was evolving into an inclusive system. People like Ben Gurion were unhappy about it to be sure, but the reality is it was happening which is proof it could have happened. As an aside we had a similar situation in the 1970s in the West Bank where an inclusive society was being created there. There of course were some differences and inequalities but the settlers early on sought to live among the Palestinians in peace and friendship. Their wasn’t the hatred on both sides that exists today.

        Obviously transfer is always discussed when there is ethnic tension. But the serious conversations about transfer, detailed maps and plans, weren’t created until the early 1940s. They were created quite explicitly in reaction to the 36-9 revolt. They would have existed but not been acted upon without the 47-9 war.

        Things could have been a lot better. Choices have consequences.

      • John O
        September 20, 2017, 1:46 pm

        @JeffB

        “I’m saying that if Hitler had been presented with a viable means of solving the Jewish question via deportation there wouldn’t have been a Holocaust at all.”

        Deportation was at the very heart of the Holocaust. It was all too viable.

    • Talkback
      September 19, 2017, 9:37 am

      Ms Reality: “If he’s wrong about his own band, why would he be right about Israel?”

      That has to be the most stupid and infantile question I have ever read on Mondoweiss. So if someone is wrong about something which has nothing to do with Isarel he must be wrong about Israel, too. It doesn’t get more stupid, does it? ROFL.

      • Ms. Reality
        September 19, 2017, 8:57 pm

        hyperbole much? i guess you tried to top my by posting your own infantile and stupid comment. To review: i previously posted that Waters has a history of being arrogant and wrong. Someone asked me for an example and I posted – among other instances – that Roger was arrogant and wrong to sue his bandmates to prevent them from making a living as Pink Floyd. He’s also arrogant and wrong to say that Radiohead does not know enough about the I / P situation.

        Waters is a narcissist with poor judgment. If applies in many areas of his life. Deal with it. His former bandmates despise him because of narcissism and poor judgment.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        September 20, 2017, 6:23 am

        Talkback said on September 19, 2017, at 9:37 am:

        Ms Reality: “If he’s wrong about his own band, why would he be right about Israel?”

        That has to be the most stupid and infantile question I have ever read on Mondoweiss. So if someone is wrong about something which has nothing to do with Isarel he must be wrong about Israel, too. It doesn’t get more stupid, does it? ROFL.

        BWAAHAHAHAHA!

        This Miz Delusional dimwit is soooo goddamned stoopid! I actually pity the Zionist barrel that had to be scraped to produce a character this frickin’ dumb!

      • Talkback
        September 20, 2017, 9:51 am

        Ms Reality: “hyperbole much? i guess you tried to top my by posting your own infantile and stupid comment.”

        Nope. I succesfully made fun of your infantile and stupid comment and its underlying ludicrous logic that if someone is wrong about something that has nothing to do with Israel than he must be wrong about Israel, too.

        Ms Reality: “To review …”

        Why don’t you counter Waters’ ARGUMENTS regarding Israel with verifiable facts instead of resorting to “insults and aggressive hyperbole”? In return I would abstain from calling you being “arrogant and wrong” and a “narcissist with poor judgment.”

        (All quotes are your own words)

      • ErsatzYisrael
        September 20, 2017, 10:55 am

        Talkback said on September 20, 2017, at 9:51 am:

        Why don’t you counter Waters’ ARGUMENTS regarding Israel with verifiable facts instead of resorting to “insults and aggressive hyperbole”?

        She doesn’t because she can’t.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        September 20, 2017, 11:03 am

        Ms. RealityMizRetard said on September 19, 2017, at 8:57 pm:

        hyperbole much?

        Please! There isn’t enough “hyperbole” in all the known universe to express just how beyond Zionist retarded your assertions really are.

      • JeffB
        September 20, 2017, 1:31 pm

        @ErsatzYisrael

        Your tone and behavior towards Ms. Reality is offensive and inappropriate.

      • Mooser
        September 20, 2017, 5:40 pm

        “Your tone and behavior towards Ms. Reality is offensive and inappropriate.” “Jeff b”

        The mashgiach is here!

  11. Ossinev
    September 18, 2017, 5:08 pm

    @MsReality
    “Waters thinks he knows more about Israel than anyone who disagrees with him, whether it’s Senator Gillibrand or the members of Radiohead. He’s an arrogrant, obsessed man who has a history of being a bully and being wrong. He is strangely silent about a lack of civil rights around the world but incredibly vocal about tiny Israel. Clearly he has a problem with Jews”

    You have squeezed in quite a few bizarre assertions about his character together with a few ZioHasbara favourites there.So lets start:
    “thinks he knows more about Israel than anyone who disagrees with him”. Examples / evidence to explain justify this assertion please.
    “He’s an arrogrant, obsessed man who has a history of being a bully and being wrong”
    Ditto please.
    ” He is strangely silent about a lack of civil rights around the world but incredibly vocal about tiny Israel”
    Classic Ziostaple Whataboutery and with the heartbreaking old favourite thrown in = “tiny (triple sob) Israel.”
    And for you at least the coup de grace: “Clearly he has a problem with Jews” ie he and everything he says and does inc BDS is not based on his contempt for a Nasty Fascist regime which is engaged in the day to day brutalisation and ethnic cleansing of a native population. It is all simply surprise surprise because he he is an anti – Judaic.

    • Misterioso
      September 18, 2017, 6:57 pm

      Bingo!!

    • Ms. Reality
      September 18, 2017, 7:44 pm

      @Ossinev – you have a bizarre inability to read. In my post I gave 2 examples of Roger thinking he knows more about Israel than anyone who disagrees with him: SENATOR KRISTIN GILLIBRAND! Of course Roger knows more about Israel than a US Senator! He also know more than Radiohead, as he has said repeatedly – as if Radiohead’s members could not possibly know as much as genius Roger Waters (although one of their members is married to an Israeli Arab).

      Example of Roger a bully? Google Rick Wright, the Pink Floyd band member who quit due to Roger’s incessant badgering. Ask the other PF bandmates, who Roger alienated, quit on, and then sued and insulted to prevent them from making a living as Pink Floyd. A judge declared Roger was wrong and even Roger now admits he was wrong. If he’s wrong about his own band, why would he be right about Israel?

      Jordan makes up 3/4 of historic Palestine. Jordan’s population is over 50% Palestinian. The Hashemite kingdom’s claim to Jordan is less than 100 years old. Why doesn’t Roger insist that Jordan should be Palestinian?

      Try to answer my questions without resorting to insults and aggressive hyperbole?

      • Misterioso
        September 18, 2017, 11:07 pm

        @Ms. Reality

        Sigh. More Hasbara nonsense.

        To be brief:

        Today’s Jordan (referred to as Transjordan by the Allies after WWI) was not part of Palestine. As Ottoman maps attest, it was administered separately from Palestine, the dividing line being the Jordan River. Known to locals as Al Baqa, the area east of the Jordan River, which became the Emirate of Transjordan in 1923 (as partial fulfillment of Britain’s pledge in the July 1915 to March 1916 Hussein/McMahon correspondence to grant the Arabs independence – including Palestine – in exchange for what proved to be their invaluable assistance in defeating the Turks during WWI) was part of the Turkish vilayet (province) of Syria. The area west of the river was governed by the Ottomans as three sanjaks (sub provinces), two of which (Acre and Nablus) formed part of the vilayet of Beirut, while the third was the independent sanjak of Jerusalem.

        Apart from the fact that what became known as Transjordan was not part of historical Palestine, the League of Nations and Britain never considered including it permanently as part of the Palestine Mandate given the fact that its population was very much ethnically different from that of Palestine. Palestinians were primarily a settled people (800 villages and 24 towns) dependent on an agricultural economy. The inhabitants of Transjordan (largely desert and steppe with a narrow strip of cultivable land and little urban development) were descended from the Arab tribes of the northwestern part of the Arabian Peninsula and were largely nomadic.

        I also remind you that it was reliably estimated at the time that the number of Jews living permanently in the Ottoman province that became know as Transjordan was three at most.

      • Frankie P
        September 19, 2017, 12:27 am

        In the unreal or surreal world of Ms. Reality, who borrowed her name from Orwellian thought, there are no humans with a higher understanding of the I/P conflict in Palestine than US Senators. Geez, Ossinev. How could you miss the idea that Roger Waters claimed that a US Senator, funded, coddled and AIPAC-trained to stand up and accept her Congressional duties to protect and secure the State of Israel as an ultimate priority, far outweighing the needs and liberties of those pesky, bothersome maggots known as “constituents” or deplorable “voters”, might not have a balanced outlook on the situation in Palestine and the best road toward peace, or at least “pieces”. The DONORS, the DONORS. Picture Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now, but delete the word “horror” and replace it with “DONORS”. BDS is the Resistance, along with Syria, Iran, Russia, China, Hezzbollah, and ME. Get used to us; we don’t scare easily, we don’t like windbag sissies with big friends and two-thousand year old narcissistic chips on their shoulders, and WE’RE HERE TO STAY. We’ll be seeing you.

        Frankie P

      • Talkback
        September 19, 2017, 9:26 am

        Ms. Reality: “Jordan makes up 3/4 of historic Palestine. Jordan’s population is over 50% Palestinian. The Hashemite kingdom’s claim to Jordan is less than 100 years old. Why doesn’t Roger insist that Jordan should be Palestinian?”

        Good point!

        Israel makes up about 3/4 of historic Palestine. Israel’s real population is over 50% Palestinian if one includes Palestinian refugees. The State of Israel’s claim to Palestine is less than 100 years old.

        We have to insist, too, that Israel becomes Palestinian again. Thank you for you reasonable contribution.

      • JeffB
        September 19, 2017, 11:18 am

        @Frankie P

        How exactly are Senator Gillibrand’s voters and constituents (excluding Jews and Palestinians) harmed one way or another by whatever happens in I/P? Your rant doesn’t even make sense. How could they possibly have any needs with respect to this crisis, it has nothing to do with them and no impact on them. As for your rant about donors, donors and volunteers are voters and constituents.

        And finally: the right to assemble and petition your elected representatives for a redress of grievances is one the main points in having a democracy. Senator Gillibrand isn’t shirking her duties when she meets with lobbyists to construct legislation rather she is performing them. That’s how the system works and is supposed to work. Undifferentiated and poorly thought out public opinion gets turned into specific policy recommendations by lobbies. Voters choose between these actionable policies by involvement. Those lobbies present the policy recommendations to elected representatives. The elected representatives meet with a variety of lobbies reflecting conflicting interests. The lobbies continue to work as intermediaries between elected representatives and the broader population with the grievances to allow for fruitful negotiation and compromise between these conflicting interests. Which finally becomes law and policy.

  12. Ossinev
    September 19, 2017, 7:55 am

    MsReality
    Get real. You have a bizarre ability to read the views and comments of an individual as being a de facto claim by that individual that he / she knows more or is better informed about the subject than others.Roger is has and will continue to state his views about Israel consistently and continue to support BDS in furtherance of those views. His stated views and positions unless you can provide evidence to the contrary are not funded by any pressure or lobby group. Sorry if that sounds as if I am bullying you. As for an internal squabble in a rock band and an individuals role in that serving as some sort of delegitimiser when it comes to that individual’s views and opinions on the I/P conflict you are really clutching at straws.

    As for your Transjordan titbit you simply cannot get through your working Zionist day without a sprinkle of whataboutery. Sad.

    As for ” aggressive hyperbolism ” and “insults”. Truth hurting a tad. Heat/fire.

  13. jon s
    September 20, 2017, 4:04 am

    Uri Avnery , at age 94, and still active. Amazing, admirable, and making valid points:

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1505487970

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