Feel-good Gaza poster in NY window draws feel-bad response from neighbor

US Politics
on 196 Comments

The poster above is in a friend’s window in New York. It has been since the last Israeli onslaught on Gaza, three years ago. Here’s the street view:

Gaza poster in a NY window

Two days ago it got an anonymous response, taped to a door in the apartment house, accusing my friend of showing support for people who would have “me and my family and my friends mutilated to a cheering crowd”:

Hamas would have me and my family “mutilated to a cheering crowd,” says a NY Jew in letter to a neighbor on their Gaza poster.

This incident brings home a few points to me. The letter isn’t canned. People who support Israel are highly articulate and engaged. They are individuals; they might be part of the Israel lobby, but no lobby is orchestrating them. They know what they think.

They feel a need these days to reflect criticism of Israel: “the discriminatory policies of Israel’s rightwing government.”

Many are deluded or suffer from paranoia, or what some have called a national psychosis: This individual in America thinks that Palestinians want to mutilate him or her– and “my family and my friends”– even as Israel is doing a lot of killing of Palestinians. And they are, by and large, Jewish and self-involved. The writer is engaged totally with the Jewish experience of history (the Holocaust) and blind to the living Palestinian experience (ethnic cleansing, apartheid).

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

196 Responses

  1. eljay
    October 4, 2017, 1:02 pm

    Hamas would have me and my family “mutilated to a cheering crowd,” says a NY Jew in letter to a neighbor on their Gaza poster.

    That response looks like it came from a NY Zionist, someone who believes that people who choose to be/come Jewish are entitled:
    – to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine; and
    – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

  2. Marnie
    October 4, 2017, 2:44 pm

    The neighbor isn’t very neighborly.

    • Mooser
      October 4, 2017, 7:10 pm

      “The neighbor isn’t very neighborly.”

      He’s probably got a trauma. That’s why he is so obnoxious. Defensive reaction.

  3. JeffB
    October 4, 2017, 3:53 pm

    @Phil

    Yep. You have a New York Jew that genuinely hates the Gazans. From the sounds of it he’s never met a Gazan so this is all a product of poisonous actions and rhetoric.

    There is a solution to that. The sort of shared humanity reconciliation type approach that peace activists used in the 1980s-1990s. It worked well, but expectations were unfortunately ridiculously high and so success was measured as a family. Support for discrimination decreased and there was economic progress for Palestinians. Politics shifted left and what had previously been impossible for both sides got put on the table, they never quite reached agreement but both sides shifted towards one another.

    During the 2nd intifada and since then confrontation and more hostility got tried. Back to the pre-Oslo strategy of a rhetoric of total population war, even though the Palestinians were no longer in any position to even plausibly attempt it. So the Israelis can destroy 1/3rd of the infrastructure of Gaza in “self defense ” and your letter writer mostly agrees. In the end what matters the most is not whether Gazans hate Israelis, or New York Jews hate Gazans but how much Israelis hate Gazans. The higher Israeli anger and hatred towards Gazans the more Gazans die.

    You want to avoid hate people need to be charitable. Try and see things from both sides. Appreciate common humanity. Look for win-win rather than win-lose. That’s how you avoid hate. We both like INN. Think about that for a moment. As far away as we are on this conflict, we both like INN. Maybe that means they are doing something right. That INN can dialogue with both of us from a position of trust is no small accomplishment.

    I can dialogue with rightwing Israelis from a position of trust (excluding the more religious settler right, where I’m too much of pinko leftist assimilated American…). So likely can your letter writer. The violence against the Gazans has gone to far when we condemn it not when you condemn it. Or more accurately the fact that I reject the idea of Jordanian citizenship for West Bankers being sufficient matters to them, the fact you reject it doesn’t. Similarly you have cred with the other side. The reason the Allison Weir thing still bothers people so much is that JVP was able to draw a line in the sand and say “this rhetoric we will not support” and make it stick.

    You do a terrific job in the “this is why the Palestinians are so pissed off” department. And that is needed. What you could do on the other side having built the credibility is…. try and work towards dialogue not confrontation. 5 years ago when we started having these conversations you believed BDS would grow and swamp the domestic counter pressure. Before that the resistance strategy would work and your role was going to be the typical domestic resistance. I think you realize now that didn’t happen. The American Jewish community was able to win the fight. And the Israelis were able to win their fight. The fraying you chart, isn’t happening fast enough.

    We are in a weird void period. Its a good time for articles that think through what comes next. How do we create a less poisonous environment so that the Gazan poster isn’t seen as personal threat to a New Yorker?

    • Mooser
      October 4, 2017, 7:03 pm

      “We are in a weird void period. Its a good time for articles that think through what comes next. How do we create a less poisonous environment so that the Gazan poster isn’t seen as personal threat to a New Yorker?”

      “Jeff b” why are you needlessly insulting Phil Weiss? If you would kindly take the trouble to read the “About” page (herein linked) you would realize that “create a less poisonous environment so that the Gazan poster isn’t seen as personal threat to a New Yorker?” is practically the site’s raison d’etre!!

      And gee, “Jeff b”, like little Bessie, you gave my heart a throb in that paragraph. “Richard”, I cried “It’s Richard Witty, come back to us!” A drunkard’s dream if I ever did see one!

    • Mooser
      October 4, 2017, 7:49 pm

      @ Phil…. 5 years ago when we started having these conversations you believed”

      “Conversations”? No, just a whole lot of “@Phil’s” and no responses.

    • Mooser
      October 4, 2017, 7:52 pm

      “You want to avoid hate people need to be charitable. Try and see things from both sides.”

      Preach it, “Jeff b”! And now, I can hear the chorus singing “Put a Little Hate in Your Heart”.

    • Misterioso
      October 5, 2017, 9:20 am

      Sigh. Pure bilge.

      A brief look at reality:

      Human Rights Watch, 2005: “…Israel will continue to be an Occupying Power [of the Gaza Strip] under international law and bound by the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention because it will retain effective control over the territory and over crucial aspects of civilian life. Israel will not be withdrawing and handing power over to a sovereign authority – indeed, the word ‘withdrawal’ does not appear in the [2005 disengagement] document at all… The IDF will retain control over Gaza’s borders, coastline, and airspace, and will reserve the right to enter Gaza at will. According to the Hague Regulations, ‘A territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised’. International jurisprudence has clarified that the mere repositioning of troops is not sufficient to relieve an occupier of its responsibilities if it retains its overall authority and the ability to reassert direct control at will.”

      The International Committee of the Red Cross: “The whole of Gaza’s civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility. The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, ratified by Israel, bans collective punishment of a civilian population.”

      “In practice, Gaza has become a huge, let me be blunt, concentration camp for right now 1, 800,000 people” – Amira Hass, 2015 correspondent for Haaretz, speaking at the Forum for Scholars and Publics at Duke University.

      To quote Dov Weisglass, PM Ariel Sharon’s senior adviser:
      “‘The significance of the [then proposed] disengagement plan [implemented in 2005] is the freezing of the peace process,’ Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Ha’aretz. ‘And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda….’ Weisglass, who was one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, was speaking in an interview with Ha’aretz for the Friday Magazine. ‘The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,’ he said. ‘It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.’” (Top PM Aide: Gaza Plan Aims to Freeze the Peace Process, Ha’aretz, October 6, 2004)

      Video: http://obliteratedfamilies.com/en/story/shuheibar/

      • Jack Green
        October 5, 2017, 7:12 pm

        If Israel had “effective control” over Gaza, Palestinians would not have been able fire thousands of rockets & mortars at Israelis.

      • YoniFalic
        October 6, 2017, 2:49 am

        Jack Green provides an example of nitpicking stupid argument of Zios that have no valid response.

        “Effective or substantial control” legally does not mean “total or complete control”.

        By Jack Green’s argument Hitler could respond to criticism of his regime’s occupation of the former territory of Czechoslovakia by asking, “What occupation? If there were a genuine occupation, Reinhard Heydrich could not have been assassinated.”

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 10:27 pm

        YoniFalic

        THOUSANDS of rockets!!!

      • oldgeezer
        October 7, 2017, 11:40 pm

        @jackie

        Thousands? So what? Most of those rockets are home made. It would take many hundreds to equal the power of a single bomb, shell or rocket from Israel. They aren’t military grade. And the existance of homemade rockets does not obviate Israeli control and occupation of Gaza. And Israel uses it’s powerful military weapons to wipe out entire innocent families.

        The occupation of Gaza exists regardless on the basis that it is part of the occuppied Palestinian territory. While Israelis like to think of them a different territories they aren’t and as long as one part is considered occupied the entire territory is considered thus under international law.

        The true bottom line is that neither the distinction nor Hamas would exist were it not for the rogue state of Israel’s crimes. It’s supporters bear the shame and guilt.

      • RoHa
        October 8, 2017, 1:31 am

        Jack, I have to say that of all the Zionist apologists we have had on this site, your brevity makes you my favourite.

      • YoniFalic
        October 8, 2017, 3:16 am

        I could certainly reply to all the Zio nonsense of the Mondoweiss comment section and refute it, but the Mondoweiss commentators allow the posting of all sorts of Zio propaganda but filter out comments that diverge from the common Zio narrative or from completely erroneous racist Jewish beliefs.

        Professor Yosef Yerushalmi used to chair the program in Jewish Studies in Columbia. The program probably outshines all other Jewish studies program in the US and in the world — especially those which like those in Israel mostly teach propaganda.

        The first 2 pages of the article linked below discuss Yerushalmi’s description of the disconnect between modern critical scientific history and the common beliefs of modern Jews, who include the moderators of the Mondoweiss comments section. Mondoweiss moderators enforce these false and erroneous beliefs by allowing Zios to post all sorts of ridiculous drivel but filtering out comments that attempt to bring factual history (instead of propaganda history) into the discussion.

        https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1PzrttiPfjMUktoUWtqQ3ZJUUk

      • YoniFalic
        October 8, 2017, 3:42 am

        By the way, in the first sentence I meant moderators and not commentators.

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 9:46 am

        RoHa

        Thank you.

      • amigo
        October 8, 2017, 11:07 am

        “Jack, I have to say that of all the Zionist apologists we have had on this site, your brevity makes you my favourite.”RoHa.

        To which Jacko replies .

        “RoHa

        Thank you.”

        I have to admit that the breath of your naivete is what makes you my favourite Zionist apologist.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        October 8, 2017, 12:15 pm

        Ziotard Jack Green said on October 5, 2017, at 7:12 pm:

        If Israel had “effective control” over Gaza, Palestinians would not have been able fire thousands of rockets & mortars at Israelis.

        If ziotard Green had more than three functioning brain cells, (s)he wouldn’t post such inane Zionist guff.

      • eljay
        October 8, 2017, 12:32 pm

        || RoHa: Jack, I have to say that of all the Zionist apologists we have had on this site, your brevity makes you my favourite. ||

        Same here. He spouts the same sort of supremacist nonsense they all do but unlike, say, JeffB and y.f., at least he gets right to the point.

      • Keith
        October 8, 2017, 3:23 pm

        YONIFALIC- “Mondoweiss moderators enforce these false and erroneous beliefs by allowing Zios to post all sorts of ridiculous drivel but filtering out comments that attempt to bring factual history (instead of propaganda history) into the discussion.”

        As one who has had some of his comments filtered out, I am going to reluctantly come to the defense of the moderators. This is difficult to do without actually knowing why the comment didn’t pass moderation, however, some general observations are in order. Let me begin by noting that Mondoweiss exists within a hostile environment where criticism of Israel and Zionism may be punished harshly. Just ask Norman Finkelstein. Between SLAPP lawsuits, harassment by the ADL, et al, and potential loss of funding, I suspect (but don’t know for sure) that the Mondoweiss moderators must walk a fine line. I also suspect that the great leeway given to some Zionist commenters is seen as a necessary defense against potential criticism and hostile actions. In other words, indulging them is the price of being able to say most of what we want. I would further add that few of us have your background to confidently say what is “ridiculous drivel,” particularly in view of the fact that much of this Zionist myth-history has become conventional wisdom, better to be argued against than banned outright. There is a power imbalance here. Empire supports Israel and Zionism and opposition to imperial policy must be done judiciously. In conclusion, I suspect that in many ways the Mondoweiss de facto moderation policy is strongly influenced by the current power dynamics in our political economy.

      • Keith
        October 8, 2017, 3:32 pm

        JACK GREEN- “THOUSANDS of rockets!!!”

        Thousands of homemade rockets that do little damage compared to the massive firepower of the Israeli stormtroopers. Compare the body counts. Easy to stop these rockets, by the way. If Israel simply adhered to the terms of every cease fire they signed in which Israel agreed to end the blockade of Gaza.

      • JeffB
        October 8, 2017, 6:08 pm

        @Yoni

        That’s a good article and I do like the example of the how the non-existent pogrom in Lithuania became constructed memory. The truth (according to the author) is still pretty bad. You had an oppressed minority in Lithuania and England didn’t care. The true version in my book is arguably worse for the anti-Zionist apologetic than the pogroms. The myth is that Jews were slowly bled to death by the wicked, allowed to happen by the indifferent and the good people were to few to make a meaningful difference. The true story supports that version as much as the myth.

        The myth is simpler. The diaspora equals death. That’s why 1/2 the IDF stands at Masada when they were are sworn in. History is mostly made by people responding to myth not history. The myths that existed before Zionism were myths that led to despair and hopelessness. We have new myths lead to freedom, joy and success. America and every country is built on these same sorts of myths.

        Ultimately the diaspora was a slow miserable bleeding death for the Jewish people. I find the details fascinating but that is the theme. The misery of the diaspora is what created Zionism. Had the aristocratic Jews been allowed to assimilate there would have been no Zionism, and potentially not much Judaism today.

      • Mooser
        October 8, 2017, 7:14 pm

        .“disconnect between modern critical scientific history and the common beliefs of modern Jews, who include the moderators of the Mondoweiss comments section.,””

        You are sure of that? I wouldn’t be.
        Of course, maybe you can tell.

      • Keith
        October 8, 2017, 9:32 pm

        JEFFB- ” The myths that existed before Zionism were myths that led to despair and hopelessness.”

        No they didn’t. You just make things up. The Rothschilds were depressed? If anyone was depressed it was the Gentile peasants.

        JEFFB- ” We have new myths lead to freedom, joy and success.”

        In the long run, these Zionist myths lead to endless war. And to a profound antipathy to your non-Jewish neighbors who you label as irrational Jew-haters.

      • yonah fredman
        October 8, 2017, 9:37 pm

        Jeff B: “ultimately the diaspora was a slow bleeding death for the Jewish people”.

        I don’t disagree, because 73 years after the 1939 – 1945 quick style of that death, that event predominates my view and any historically conscious Jew.

        Artie Shaw in Ken Burns’ Jazz is honest that he changed his name from Warshavski, because to be Jewish was considered low in his day and I think that aspect of American Jewishness is ignored as a facile type of amnesia. The Jewish pride that erupted after 67 was quite real and widespread and was a reaction to a very long quiescence.

        To the future? obviously Zionism is the primary jewish cause of the century, Israel- the primary location of jewish commitment and experimentation, but there are other small centers of jewish commitment and experimentation in the diaspora as well. sometimes it is the small movements that become major movements years down the road, but currently the major movement is in Israel.

      • Annie Robbins
        October 8, 2017, 11:35 pm

        To the future? obviously Zionism is the primary jewish cause of the century

        too early in the century to make that claim.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 3:59 am

        @Keith

        JEFFB- ” The myths that existed before Zionism were myths that led to despair and hopelessness.”

        No they didn’t. You just make things up. The Rothschilds were depressed? If anyone was depressed it was the Gentile peasants.

        The Rothschilds only come easily to mind because of antisemitism. The crazy level of focus on them was a product of antisemitism. There were many wealth European families. How many crazy conspiracies do you hear about the Cavendish family? How many about the FitzGerald family? Both of which were wealthier and more powerful. Were the Rothschilds treated like a comparable European family they probably would not have jumped in the way they did on Zionism. Because even they had suffered tremendous harassment.

        Certainly I’d agree that the Rothschilds lived well but they didn’t have equality with their peers. Your argument is very much like the one made by racists in the USA that blacks in the Jim Crow south had more rights and a higher standard of living than blacks in Africa.

        JEFFB- ” We have new myths lead to freedom, joy and success.”

        In the long run, these Zionist myths lead to endless war. And to a profound antipathy to your non-Jewish neighbors who you label as irrational Jew-haters.

        No, not at all. Zionism has a theory of redemption though nationalism. When the world starts to talk about Israel the way it talks about France, when it talks about Jews the way it talks about the French Zionism triumphs. Most Jews see the difference already in their daily lives. They can see the progress that Zionism has already made. The Jewish world in 2017 looks nothing like it did in 1917 or 1817.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 5:31 am

        @Yonah

        Agree with all. As I mentioned elsewhere with Israel providing a rock point Judaism in the diaspora can become much more varied and relevant to the conditions of the diaspora. Just surviving ceases to be a diaspora concern. I expect a flourishing diverse Judaism to become more mainstream this century as well.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 11:44 am

        “Artie Shaw in Ken Burns’ Jazz is honest that he changed his name from Warshavski, because to be Jewish was considered low in his day”

        In his desperate struggle for acceptance and bookings in the Jazz world, Artie Shaw spread a rumor he was part African-American.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 11:53 am

        ”To the future? obviously Zionism is the primary jewish cause of the century.” “yonah fredman”

        On to the future, by returning to the past. That’ll work.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 12:13 pm

        “As I mentioned elsewhere with Israel providing a rock point Judaism in the diaspora can become much more varied and relevant to the conditions of the diaspora. Just surviving ceases to be a diaspora concern. I expect a flourishing diverse Judaism to become more mainstream this century as well.” “Jeff b”

        Shorter “Jeff b”: ‘You won’t see me moving to Zion.’

        Although he does admire Israeli plumbing.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 12:28 pm

        “obviously Zionism is the primary jewish cause of the century”

        And being “the primary Jewish cause” guarantees success, as it always has.

      • Keith
        October 9, 2017, 1:11 pm

        JEFFB- “The Rothschilds only come easily to mind because of antisemitism.”

        I only used the Rothschilds because they are the easily recognizable example of Jewish wealth and influence, the rather obvious counterpoint to Zionist “Fiddler on the Roof” myth-history. The historical reality is that if we exclude the relatively small Gentile nobility (the original examplars of birthright entitlement), then Jews as a group were, on average, better off than the surrounding Gentile community. Not all times and places, but on average true. Hardly a situation which would logically produce despair. Yet, this is a typically outrageous claim you make with zero supporting evidence. There is a reason the Rothschilds supported Zionism, but depair wasn’t it. And, of course, when reality conflicts with your propaganda, you behave like a true Zionist and claim anti-Semitism.

        As for the Cavendish and FitzGerald families, I know nothing about them. And if they were wealthier and more powerful than the Rothschilds, something you don’t document but merely claim, then they were the fattest of fat-cats. A quote concerning the Rothschilds:

        “Between 1818 and 1832, Nathan Rothschild handled 39% of the loans floated in London by such governments as Austria, Russia and France. Similarly, the Vienna and Paris branches of the family raised money and sold bonds for the Hapsburgs, Bourbons, Orleanists, and Bonaparts. By mid-century (19th), the entire European state system was dependent upon the international financial network dominated by the Rothschilds.” (p18, “The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State,” Benjamin Ginsberg)

        Getting back to your original point, what evidence do you have that Jews suffered from despair and hopelessness?

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 3:09 pm

        “Getting back to your original point, what evidence do you have that Jews suffered from despair and hopelessness?”

        Gee, hard to think of anybody who has launched a colonial project out of “despair and hopelessness”.
        Usually, colonial projects are a sign of burgeoning power, resources and control.

      • Tuyzentfloot
        October 9, 2017, 3:50 pm

        I recall Akiva Orr saying the Rotschilds weren’t zionists but rather french nationalists.
        Somewhere in here

        but I’d have to rewatch the whole 150 minutes of it.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 3:56 pm

        ” The true version in my book is arguably worse for the anti-Zionist apologetic than the pogroms” “Jeff b”

        You’ve written a book, “Jeff b”? Is it available at Amazon or perhaps on Scribd or PDF?
        I picked you out right away as somebody who was out standing in their field.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 4:08 pm

        @Keith

        JEFFB- “The Rothschilds only come easily to mind because of antisemitism.”

        I only used the Rothschilds because they are the easily recognizable example of Jewish wealth and influence, the rather obvious counterpoint to Zionist “Fiddler on the Roof” myth-history. The historical reality is that if we exclude the relatively small Gentile nobility (the original examplars of birthright entitlement), then Jews as a group were, on average, better off than the surrounding Gentile community.

        Making your statement a bit more specific that the median standard of living was higher does appear to be true.

        Not all times and places, but on average true. Hardly a situation which would logically produce despair.

        Obviously starvation correlates strongly with despair. Beyond that helplessness and criticism tend to produce depression. For example personal trauma may do little to damage economics but can cause quite a bit of depression and sadness. As a percentage of GDP 9/11 directly did little, but the emotions that it unleashed did tremendous damage to the economy. Abuse in childhood, teasing and bullying are well known depression factors. My parent’s generation experienced teasing and bullying as a result of being Jewish, as did my wife’s generation in the Soviet Union.

        Yet, this is a typically outrageous claim you make with zero supporting evidence.

        We are the ethnic group that invented psychotherapy. Elderly Jewish immigrants from the Soviet Union have much higher levels of depression than non-Jewish elderly immigrants from other countries. Jewish males are twice as likely to suffer from depression as Catholic or Protestant males (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9210744 , http://articles.latimes.com/1995-05-23/news/mn-5096_1_jewish-men ). And note this is 1/5th the rate of alcoholism. Jews are 15-40% more likely to have Schizotypal disorders. I could keep going on the psychological stuff.

        Jewish holiday themes are all essentially: They tried to kill us, we survived, let’s eat. A happy
        culture doesn’t produce those themes. Contrast American and Russian movies and how they tend to end. Jewish humor, the reason Jews make so much American humor is dark and considers a world where injustice and unfairness are the norms. How does that arise?

        Longitudinally virtually every country on the planet has pretty horrific anti-Jewish violence. Which means Jews never developed a sense of place of belonging.

        There is a reason the Rothschilds supported Zionism, but depair wasn’t it. And, of course, when reality conflicts with your propaganda, you behave like a true Zionist and claim anti-Semitism.

        No. My problem is not that the Rothschilds were rich but that among all the rich families the Jewish one gets all the attention and conspiracies. Why is it that everyone knows who the Rothschilds are but other similarly wealthy families don’t get any attention?

        Same as Israel. My problem is not with people who think that Israel is a bad country or whatever. My problem is the level of attention and focus.

        As for the Cavendish and FitzGerald families, I know nothing about them. And if they were wealthier and more powerful than the Rothschilds, something you don’t document but merely claim, then they were the fattest of fat-cats.

        Yes they are. By the times of the Rothschilds they controlled huge estates. I believe the Canendish currently have (and they’ve been rich since 1360s) so they beat the Rothschilds being rich both before and after:

        Duke of Devonshire
        Duke of Newcastle
        Marquess of Hartington
        Marquess of Newcastle-upon-Tyne
        Earl of Devonshire
        Earl of Burlington
        Earl of Newcastle-upon-Tyne
        Viscount Mansfield
        Baron Clifford
        Baron Cavendish
        Baron Cavendish of Keighley
        Baron Waterpark
        Baron Ogle
        Baron Chesham

        and that’s on top of the less noble kids that are only Lords having started countless businesses. Cavendish Corporate Finance does a lot of the midsized M&A… Yeah they are loaded. But that’s the thing. You didn’t know about them.

        FitzGerald is the Duke of Leinster, Barons Desmond, Earls of Kildare. (here is a map of 15th century Ireland to give you an idea of the size of their holding: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png) The USS Fitzgerald is named in honor of this family.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 4:12 pm

        “Getting back to your original point, what evidence do you have that Jews suffered from despair and hopelessness?”

        I had to grow up listening to people like “Jeff b”. That’ll do the trick.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 5:17 pm

        @Tuyzentfloot

        I recall Akiva Orr saying the Rotschilds weren’t zionists but rather french nationalists.
        Somewhere in here

        There were a lot of Rothschilds by the time of Zionism. But let me just mention three

        You’ve heard of the Balfour declaration. It is named after Arthur Balfour who wrote it. The person it was written to is Walter Rothschild.
        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg

        Edmond James de Rothschild (French btw) founded the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association

        James de Rothschild paid for the Knesset building.

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 5:24 pm

        Mooser

        So Zionism isn’t your typical colonial project & people should not make assumptions based on other colonial projects.

      • Keith
        October 9, 2017, 5:59 pm

        JEFFB- “Duke of Devonshire, Duke of Newcastle, Marquess of Hartington, Marquess of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Earl of Devonshire, Earl of Burlington, Earl of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Viscount Mansfield, Baron Clifford, Baron Cavendish, Baron Cavendish of Keighley, Baron Waterpark, Baron Ogle, Baron Chesham”

        What part of “if we exclude the relatively small Gentile nobility” don’t you understand? And the more wealth the Gentile nobility has, the less wealth the Gentile commoners have. So, if we compare commoner Jews to commoner Gentiles, my comment about Jews as a group versus Gentiles as a group still stands in regards to relative financial power and privilege. Objectively, therefore, there is no reason that the Jews as a group should have experienced GREATER hopelessness and despair than the surrounding Gentile community prior to the 20th century. Zionism was not the consequence of Jewish despair. It was founded by the Jewish middle class and supported by the Jewish elites such as the Rothschilds. The majority of Jews were not Zionists and did not want to go to Palestine. Even after the Holocaust, most Jews wanted to go to the US or Britain and had to be coerced by the Zionists in the DP camps to go to Israel. An act of cruelty you fully support.

        Besides, unless you have hard data to back up your verbal claims, your claims lack credibility. Why you would track the wealth of British nobility seems a bit odd to me. And the rest of your comment is you, once again, making unsupported claims. Unless you have some verifiable support for these claims, it is you just blowing smoke. And yes, we caught your latest inference of anti-Semitism, as if it is anti-Semitic for me to know who the Rothschilds were/are but not the Duke of Devonshire, even though “By mid-century (19th), the entire European state system was dependent upon the international financial network dominated by the Rothschilds.” The international financial network is hugely important to the global political economy. You have yet to make a case that the Duke of Devenshire, et al, had that type of power. And you have yet to supply any supporting documentation for ANYTHING you have said. And, Jeez, linking to a map of 15th century Ireland as “proof” of anything is beyond the pale. Unless, of course, this is all one big joke.

      • amigo
        October 9, 2017, 6:01 pm

        jeffy boy, the Gov of the republic of Ireland does not recognise “Peers of The Realm”.Your map is somewhat outdated –by about 100 years.

        We have no Barons,Dukes or Marquis.The only official title awarded in Ireland is that of “Count” , a title given to the late great John Mc Cormack , the famous Irish tenor.We are a republic and don,t do the Monarchy thing.

        Most of those people you listed left or were kicked out of Ireland long ago for their long history as agents of the British Empire and being cruel Landlords.

      • yonah fredman
        October 9, 2017, 8:05 pm

        Once one labels “Fiddler on the Roof” as not just myth history, but Zionist myth history, then one has taken the step of calling everything one finds objectionable about Judaism or Jewishness as Zionism.

        Zionism, particularly as referred to here at mw, meaning objectionable Zionism, is about the attachment of the Jews to a particularly land and that attachment superceding all other attachments. To use it as a phrase in order to condemn Fiddler on the Roof, which had zero to do with the land, is to say, I hate this piece of myth history and call it Zionism, so that everyone else will hate it too.

        Daniel Kahneman, in his book “Thinking fast and slow”, explains that the average human being remembers the latter part of an event rather than the major part of an event: that is: if a tv show or a party or a speech was largely enjoyable, until the last half hour, when it was not enjoyable, the average human being will give the show low grades based upon the last half hour. the last impression is the one that sticks.

        Thus if the last impression left by the diaspora in Europe was the Shoah, there is very little chance that the average human being would say, all told the diaspora was not so bad. we made a decent living and most of the times things were okay. No. That’s not human nature. Human nature is: we ran out of there and lucky we did, cause you see what happened.

        Regarding the masses of Jews who lived in Eastern Europe after 1800 under the rule of the czars: obviously the rule of the czars was problematic, for the revolution did not come out of nothing, but out of terrible detachment of the rulers from the masses and autocratic arrogance. It is impossible to measure how much despair and hopelessness was felt by the masses of Jews between 1880 and 1914 and how that compared to the feelings of the other peoples ruled by the czars. The only thing that can be measured is that there was a great migration from eastern europe of Jews to various destinations. Such a mass migration is a symptom of a deep malaise and a cause of great tumult. If there had been no such destinations, then there would have been despair and hopelessness, but in fact, America and its promises and other western destinations and their promises filled the people (who made the journey) with hope. When in the aftermath of WWI the immigration policies became much more closed, in fact there was despair and hopelessness.

        But as I said, the cataclysm, climax of the Jewish European diaspora was the Shoah and thus to view that as the epitome of the European diaspora is merely human nature writ large.

      • echinococcus
        October 9, 2017, 8:33 pm

        Whining Fredman worse than the bloodthirsty Jeffs and Co:

        Once one labels “Fiddler on the Roof” as not just myth history, but Zionist myth history, then one has taken the step of calling everything one finds objectionable about Judaism or Jewishness as Zionism.
        Zionism, particularly as referred to here at mw, meaning objectionable Zionism, is about the attachment of the Jews to a particularly land and that attachment superceding all other attachments. To use it as a phrase in order to condemn Fiddler on the Roof, which had zero to do with the land, is to say, I hate this piece of myth history and call it Zionism, so that everyone else will hate it too.

        Of course there is a land and a language and a culture to be attached to –if you are from there. It is called Yiddish areas of the Russian Empire and Poland, the language is Yiddish, the people and their culture are Ashkenazi. Nothing objectionable there if not dolts and/or criminals who call that “Jewish” as if it had anything to do with any other people with Jewish religion (or even without it) anywhere else.

        In the case of Fredman, one might be justified in starting to think that the more charitable interpretation of the two, above, is correct.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 10:15 pm

        @Amigo

        jeffy boy, the Gov of the republic of Ireland does not recognise “Peers of The Realm”.Your map is somewhat outdated –by about 100 years.

        Actually that map is outdated by about 600 years, it shows the estates in 1450. The point was to show the extent of the family’s wealth.

        We have no Barons,Dukes or Marquis.The only official title awarded in Ireland is that of “Count” , a title given to the late great John Mc Cormack , the famous Irish tenor.We are a republic and don,t do the Monarchy thing.

        I believe that the status is that Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland has titles and those titles refer places in the Republic of Ireland. That sounds to me like the monarchy has not technically renounced its claim to Ireland. I’ll let a Brit answer definitely what the meaning is but these titles still exist. Maybe some date in the future they hope you all with renounce your popery and return to God’s mandate under a proper English king?

        As an aside agree with your English ties (though I believe this particular family was originally Welsh / Norman). The FitzGerald family came into Ireland with the Norman invasion, they were associated with Henry II (FitzGerald is a grandson of Gerald de Windsor). Also Saint Patrick’s Saltire which you all still use is from their coat of arms. And FWIW the family even has a crater on the moon named after them.

        Regardless between the 11th and 20th century I assume the stocked enough wealth away, because the family is still loaded h even without being able to draw revenue from Ireland. I was just picking a rich European family at random and I happened to pick one whose wealth and estates came from Ireland. Don’t attach much meaning to it beyond that.

      • Keith
        October 10, 2017, 10:40 am

        YONAH FREDMAN- “But as I said, the cataclysm, climax of the Jewish European diaspora was the Shoah and thus to view that as the epitome of the European diaspora is merely human nature writ large.”

        To claim that the current emphasis on the Holocaust is “merely human nature writ large” is either being extremely naive or extremely disingenuous. The Holocaust has been massively exploited by the Zionists to achieve their power-seeking goals. Between the end of WWII and about 1967, the Holocaust was not emphasized the way it is today, and was discussed within the framework of the World War and Nazism. Only after 1967 did the Holocaust industry rise up. Far from fading into the past, the Zionist emphasis on the Holocaust grows stronger. For more discussion, go to my commenter profile and enter “Finkelstein” and then “Kovel” for bite sized quotes. Of course, I strongly recommend “The Holocaust Industry” by Norman Finkelstein, and “Overcoming Zionism” by Joel Kovel.

      • Mooser
        October 10, 2017, 11:36 am

        “So Zionism isn’t your typical colonial project & people should not make assumptions based on other colonial projects.”

        You will receive a lovely “Jews sui generis” lapel-button and a “No trauama ‘long us, boss!” reflective bumper-sticker. Both free, simply pay separate s&h.

      • Mooser
        October 10, 2017, 11:42 am

        ”.Your map is somewhat outdated –by about 100 years.”

        It’s becoming more and more evident, “Jeff b” is being assisted by Artificial Intelligence. That’s what I call Googling for anything which might support a claim without having the knowledge (or even the desire) to see if it’s relevant or applicable.

      • yonah fredman
        October 10, 2017, 1:08 pm

        Keith- I disagree with N. Finkelstein’s interpretation of the relative silence of the Jews to the astounding blow that they suffered. (not unique, but surely astounding). The reaction of the Jews between 1945 and 1967 to the Shoah was abnormally quiet. Like after one suffers a blow, one does not scream, but one crumples into a fetal position and attempts to regain one’s breath. Another reaction was to disavow Judaism, as in the case of Madeline Albright’s parents and billy Joel’s mother. This may or may not be normal, but it is self destructive to the group.

        It is interesting to imagine an alternative history of reaction to the Holocaust if there had been no Zionism or if there had been a peace treaty signed between Nasser and Israel in the 50’s. So I do not deny that Zionism has played a role in emphasizing the Holocaust, but I consider it natural for Jews to consider the European diaspora to be a disaster, despite the lag time between the blow and the natural reaction to the astounding loss.

      • amigo
        October 10, 2017, 2:55 pm

        “Actually that map is outdated by about 600 years, it shows the estates in 1450. The point was to show the extent of the family’s wealth.”

        You might want to check the details before you reach back 600 years to back up your reconnaissance into the myth of Antisemtism.

        “The seventh Duke of Leinster, Edward FitzGerald, lost Carton House and ended up in a one-room Westminster flat where he died in 1976. Eamon Delaney on a fascinating book about Ireland’s premier aristocratic family.

        In the space of just 70 years, the Dukes of Leinster fell from being Ireland’s leading aristocratic family, close friends of the British monarchy, secure within the world’s most powerful empire, to relative obscurity in an independent Ireland that did not recognise titles.

        When this book opens in 1872, the 3rd Duke of Leinster was residing in the Palladian grandeur of Kildare’s Carton House. But by 1976, just over a century later, the disgraced 7th Duke, Edward FitzGerald, had lost Carton and everything else that remained and would die that year impoverished in a one-room bedsit flat in London.”

        http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-reviews/a-great-fall-from-carton-house-to-a-london-bedsit-30490340.html

        As to your insult regarding “Popery” I will overlook that as Ireland is a secular nation .We managed to rid ourselves of the yoke of religious interference in our daily lives.I would suggest Israel adopt the same policy.

        IE , We Pope-ists dont have to travel to another country to get a have a civil marriage or a divorce.

        On the issue of the British Monarchies claim to Ireland–that ended in the treaty of 1921 and the Republic left the Common Wealth in 1949—see Republic of Ireland act 1948.

        Britain is now begging us not to erect a Hard Border between the Republic and Northern Ireland.Oh how the mighty fall.Beware Israel

        The only Duke to gain respect in Ireland was John Wayne and perhaps to a lesser extent , Duke Ellington.

      • amigo
        October 10, 2017, 4:11 pm

        Note , my post above at 6,01 pm is to Jeffyboy,

      • JeffB
        October 11, 2017, 6:45 am

        @Amigo

        I’m a little hard pressed to even follow your logic here. The argument is that during the time of the Rothschilds there were similarly wealthy gentile families. I think that’s been proven. You give as an example of Edward FitzGerald, 7th Duke of Leinster. Certainly we agree he’s a member of that family. He’s was a gambling addict who went through 3 fortunes before dying broke. I’m not sure how that disproves that it is a very wealthy family. If anything it proves the extent of their resources that that he not only got a lot of money as a youth, but he inherited another fortune and then married a 3rd fortune. There is no amount of money you can’t lose if you work at it.

        I don’t know much about the 8th Duke but we note that he had to have Edward stopped from stealing a £100,000 painting hanging in his home, in 1976 so adjust for some inflation. He also owned Kilkea Castle (and this is after independence). So the 8th Duke of Leinster seems like he has some nickels to rub together.

        Just to point out to another example that didn’t work out as badly. As Edward was blowing his fortune gambling the mayor of Boston, John F. Fitzgerald, was busy marrying his daughter to the son of the leader of the Boston political machine. That son turned out to be a remarkably talented stock and commodity investor often names alongside Vanderbilt as a contender for best ever. Those two kids took that money and political influence and made their son the first Catholic President of the United States. Oh and since we are talking money, the family fortune from that couple is today worth well over $1b. Now I’ll admit since Rose was a girl that’s technically not part of the FitzGerald fortune. But not all the FitzGeralds gambled away their money.

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 11:32 am

        “I’m a little hard pressed to even follow your logic here.”

        Whatever you do “Jeff b”, don’t come back as a trout in your next life. You rise to the bait much too easily.

    • Eva Smagacz
      October 6, 2017, 3:44 pm

      JeffB

      You say:
      “try and work towards dialogue not confrontation”

      Looking at it from tail end of the nineteenth century, “dialogue” with European immigrants really “improved” Palestinian lot in their native land (/sarcasm).

      JeffB, I thing you really, really, really wish for more “dialogue” and for continuing “improvement” of Palestinians lot….

      43/48

      • eljay
        October 6, 2017, 4:06 pm

        || Eva Smagacz: JeffB …

        You say:
        “try and work towards dialogue not confrontation” … ||

        He says “dialogue” the way RW used to say “dialog” and the way jon s says “peace” – which is to say, wishing for an outcome that:
        – allows Israel to remain a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine;
        – absolves Israel of its obligations under international law (including RoR); and
        – absolves Israel and Zionists of responsibility and accountability for their past and on-going (war) crimes.

      • JeffB
        October 6, 2017, 6:32 pm

        @Eva

        Your sarcasm is misplaced. Confrontation has been a disaster. When Europeans first arrived there was cooperation and Palestinians made a profit from Zionism and Jewish immigration was harmless and mostly non-Zionist. In 1920 they attack communities and drive the entire Palestinian Jewish community into the arms of the Zionists. They do very little damage to the Zionists and in exchange politicize and unify their opposition.

        1927-1935 are very good years for the Palestinians when they are cooperating.
        1936-1939 they go for confrontation and are militarily devestated

        And you don’t have to believe I want the best for the Palestinians but that doesn’t change the fact that I do. The Palestinians would make great Israelis. As soon as they become willing to become Israelis all sorts of possibilities open that are better for both peoples. Israel gains nothing from crushing them if their cooperation is possible.

        I’ve used the analogy before of putting your hand into a lawn mower. Once they stop doing that they can live in happiness and prosperity. They don’t have to repeat the mistakes the Jews made with the Romans. But they might choose to. Same as any country should have towards its enemies: better to convert them to an ally then defeat them, better to defeat them than lose to them.

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 5:12 pm

        Keith

        Palestinians rockets have killed or wounded 2,000 Israelis.
        Israel has every right to defend itself.

      • oldgeezer
        October 8, 2017, 6:08 pm

        @jack

        All nations have a right to defend themselves. Yes including Isrsel.

        Palestinians have a right to resist colonizatiin and oppression specifically including the use of violence against the perps.

        Israel advancing and securing land theft and ensuring their victims remain deprived of their basic human rights is not even remotely practicing self defence. Morw zionist perversion of words and reality.

        With your complete lack of solid moral footing you would find the rapist to be the victim if the person being raped fights back.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        October 8, 2017, 8:16 pm

        Ziotard Jack Green said on October 8, 2017, at 5:12 pm:

        Palestinians rockets have killed or wounded 2,000 Israelis.

        Yeah, and?

        Ziotard Jack Green said on October 8, 2017, at 5:12 pm:

        Israel has every right to defend itself.

        No, the belligerent, illegal Zionist apartheid regime currently operating in Palestine has absolutely no “right to defend itself”. The Palestinian victims of Zionist aggression, on the other hand, have every right to defend themselves against the Zionist aggression that’s been ongoing for more than a century.

      • Keith
        October 8, 2017, 9:48 pm

        JACK GREEN- “Palestinians rockets have killed or wounded 2,000 Israelis. Israel has every right to defend itself.”

        Do you have a source for this? The casualties over the years have been overwhelmingly Palestinians. Israel agrees to end the blockade but doesn’t. Israel is the aggressor. Israel has the power to unilaterally end this but doesn’t. And you support this warmonger state?

      • jon s
        October 9, 2017, 12:25 am

        Eljay,
        I plead guilty to saying “peace” and supporting peace movements and initiatives. It’s what we – Israelis and Palestinians – need most.
        Yesterday my wife and I participated in the Women Wage Peace event in Jerusalem. Quite impressive.
        http://womenwagepeace.org.il/en/

      • eljay
        October 9, 2017, 9:09 am

        || jon s: Eljay,
        I plead guilty to saying “peace” and supporting peace movements and initiatives. It’s what we – Israelis and Palestinians – need most. … ||

        Everyone needs peace. Everyone also needs justice, accountability and equality. You focus solely on the former because it:
        – allows Israel to remain a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”;
        – allows Israel to keep most of what it has stolen;
        – absolves Israel and Zionist (war) criminals of their past and on-going (war) crimes; and
        – absolves Israel of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR).

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 11:30 am

        The only arguments the Ziobots know are the ones they use to convince each other.
        The fact that they might have to account for Zionism to anybody else has never occurred to them.

      • Jack Green
        October 10, 2017, 8:41 am

        eljay

        Do you object to discrimination by ethnicity & race or do you object only to discrimination by religion?

      • eljay
        October 10, 2017, 8:58 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … Do you object to discrimination by ethnicity & race or do you object only to discrimination by religion? ||

        I object to all three.

        Do you object to discrimination by Jews or do you object only to discrimination against Jews?

      • eljay
        October 10, 2017, 11:19 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … If Israel can take in a certain number of people per year, should it determine who it takes by lottery or should Israel give preference to “all people living in and up to n-generations removed from Partition-borders Israel?” ||

        Any country that “can take in a certain number of people per year” should prioritize repatriating its refugees. Rather than repatriate its non-Jewish Israeli refugees, Israel chooses to import foreign (non-Israeli) Jews.

        So I ask you again: Do you object to discrimination by Jews or do you object only to discrimination against Jews?

      • Jack Green
        October 10, 2017, 8:20 pm

        Mooser

        Here’s why the Zionist colonialist project is different from all other colonial projects.

        In all other colonial projects, the colonists go to a land where their ancestors never lived. In the Zionist project, Jews return to the land of their ancestors.

        In all other colonial projects, the native people are worse off because of the colonists. In the Zionist project, draining the swamps thereby reducing the number of mosquitoes thereby lowering the incidence of disease made the natives healthier & longer lived.

        In all other colonial projects, a powerful mother country directly controls less powerful countries and uses their resources to increase its own power and wealth. In the Zionist colonial project, there was no mother country.

      • eljay
        October 10, 2017, 9:13 pm

        || Jack Green: … Here’s why the Zionist colonialist project is different from all other colonial projects.

        In all other colonial projects, the colonists go to a land where their ancestors never lived. In the Zionist project, Jews return to the land of their ancestors. … ||

        First off, thanks for admitting that the Zionist colonialist project was a colonialist project.

        Okay, here we go: In the Zionist colonialist project, Jewish citizens of homelands all over the world migrated to the foreign land of Palestine, a place that was not their homeland or the “land of their ancestors”. Fail #1.

        (Geographic Palestine was the land of its native population, as you correctly acknowledge in your next point, below. Pass #1…until you weasel you way out of it.)

        || … In all other colonial projects, the native people are worse off because of the colonists. In the Zionist project, draining the swamps thereby reducing the number of mosquitoes thereby lowering the incidence of disease made the natives healthier & longer lived. … ||

        In the Zionist colonialist project, the native people of Palestine are worse off because those who weren’t ethnically cleansed from their homes and lands by Zionists and refused their right to return have been subjected to decades (and counting) of oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and/or second-class status in a religion-supremacist state. Fail #2.

        || … In all other colonial projects, a powerful mother country directly controls less powerful countries and uses their resources to increase its own power and wealth. In the Zionist colonial project, there was no mother country. ||

        You’re right: In the Zionist colonialist project, there was no “mother country” – there were mother countries. And once the “Jewish State” was established, it became its own mother country with respect to the on-going occupation and colonization of territory outside of Israel’s / Partition borders. Fail #3.

      • Jack Green
        October 11, 2017, 10:29 am

        eljay

        I think that it’s OK that all countries discriminate in favor of their own citizens. Some grant citizenship to children of citizens even if born abroad & even to grandchildren of citizens.
        Israel grants citizenship to descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah (Jews) & I think that’s OK.

      • eljay
        October 11, 2017, 10:46 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … I think that it’s OK that all countries discriminate in favor of their own citizens. … ||

        Please respond to the question I actually asked you: Do you object to discrimination by Jews or do you object only to discrimination against Jews?

        || … Some grant citizenship to children of citizens even if born abroad & even to grandchildren of citizens. … ||

        Up to n-generations removed from a geographic region: That makes sense…which is why Israel doesn’t do it.

        || … Israel grants citizenship to descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah … ||

        No, Israel simply prioritizes non-Israeli Jews – citizens of homelands all over the world – over its non-Jewish Israeli refugees and descendants of non-Jewish Israelis. It does so because it is a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        || … & I think that’s OK. ||

        Of course you do: You’re a Jewish supremacist (Zionist).

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 11:10 am

        “Israel grants citizenship to descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah (Jews) & I think that’s OK.”

        And it is very easy to tell who the “descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah (Jews)” are. The men are born without foreskins.

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 11:54 am

        “discriminate in favor of”

        ‘Watson, notice, if you will, how far the parsing has sunk into the blubber!’

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 12:50 pm

        “Yesterday my wife and I participated in the Women Wage Peace event in Jerusalem” “Jon s”

        And now you have recorded your attendance in the Book of Life, the Mondo comment archives, where it will resound to your credit eternally.
        Good thing you didn’t put it on one of those fly-by-night Zionist sites.

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 5:18 pm

        “Here’s why the Zionist colonialist project is different from all other colonial projects.”

        “Jackie”, Jackie”, don’t try and pull the wool-and-polyester blend over a lantzman’s eyes. It makes the baby Jesus cry.

        C’mon, fella, I’m Jewish, well over 60, grew up with Zionism.

      • eljay
        October 11, 2017, 9:58 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || …. I object to discrimination by Jews & to discrimination against Jews.
        I make an exception for Israel. Because … ||

        …you’re a supremacist hypocrite. But I already knew that.

        || … The non-Israeli Jews are the descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah. The non-Jewish Israeli refugees are not. … ||

        Non-Israeli Jews are not Israeli. Non-Jewish Israelis are Israeli. Leave it to a Zionist to fuck up the obvious.

        As for the rest of your comment, it and you are just too stupid to deal with any more. I’ll leave it to others to be amused and/or frustrated by you.

        Take care, Jack, you ol’ hateful and immoral Zionist hypocrite.

  4. pgtl10
    October 4, 2017, 5:37 pm

    Your friend should up more posters and even bigger ones. Also he should post a letter to every door stating what he believes.

    • Jack Green
      October 10, 2017, 10:38 am

      eljay

      If Israel can take in a certain number of people per year, should it determine who it takes by lottery or should Israel give preference to “all people living in and up to n-generations removed from Partition-borders Israel?”

    • Jack Green
      October 11, 2017, 7:48 pm

      eljay

      I object to discrimination by Jews & to discrimination against Jews.
      I make an exception for Israel. Because Israel has the responsibility of proving a refuge for Jews, it needs to give Jews priority. Suppose that 100 Jews become refugees tomorrow & Israel doesn’t discriminate, then Israel would need to accept all 60 million refugees in order to make sure that the 100 Jews were accepted. A country of 8 million can’t possibly take in 60 million.

    • Jack Green
      October 11, 2017, 7:58 pm

      eljay

      “Israel simply prioritizes non-Israeli Jews – citizens of homelands all over the world – over its non-Jewish Israeli refugees and descendants of non-Jewish Israelis. ”

      The non-Israeli Jews are the descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah. The non-Jewish Israeli refugees are not.

      All countries give preference to descendants of their citizens although Israel is the only one that goes back 3,000 years.

      If Israel were a religion-supremacist state, it would not accept atheists.

      • echinococcus
        October 12, 2017, 3:14 am

        The Green Jack, now:

        The non-Israeli Jews are the descendants of citizens of the Kingdom of Israel & the Kingdom of Judah.

        Proof? Personal papers? Everybody is still waiting.

        If Israel were a religion-supremacist state, it would not accept atheists.

        Ain’t that god’s very own truth, now!
        I don’t know who invented the absurd nonsense of “religion-supremacist” state.
        Of course you are right. It’s a plain racist state.
        It is no different than the Third Reich in that respect, just rabidly racial supremacist.

      • Jack Green
        October 12, 2017, 10:07 am

        echinococcus

        Religion is used as a marker for descendant of a citizen of the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah. It’s not perfect, but it’s better to let in someone who is not a descendant of citizen of the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah than to exclude someone who is descendant of citizen of the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah.

        Are all countries racist because all countries give preference to their citizens & descendants of their citizens?

        Third Reich? Where are the gas chambers & crematoria?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 12, 2017, 1:29 pm

        Jack:

        “citizen of the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah..”

        But wasn’t Israel “the only Democracy in the Middle East” ??

        “Are all countries racist because all countries give preference to their citizens & descendants of their citizens..”

        Now you are obviously writing your own “world order” here all the time, but again you are wrong: Finland does not give preference to all of the descendants of it’s citizens = A Finnish grandmother doesn’t “give” anyone the Finnish citizenship any easier than, lets say, our Eljay would get it, if he wanted to apply for one. If you were not born in Finland or do not have a Finnish parent, you’ll be “in the same line” with others when applying your citizenship.

        So please stop creating your own stories and serving them as facts.

        http://www.migri.fi/finnish_citizenship

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 12, 2017, 1:41 pm

        p.s. Jack:

        Next time you write about “all countries” (195 of them?), please go through their legislations, before using them as justification for your racist ideologies.

      • eljay
        October 12, 2017, 1:43 pm

        || Kaisa of Finland: … our Eljay … ||

        That has a nice ring to it.  :-)

      • echinococcus
        October 12, 2017, 2:14 pm

        An even Greener Jack:

        Religion is used as a marker for descendant of a citizen of …

        Right. So as we were saying, religion is inborn, not acquired and cannot be acquired, eh?
        Thanks for confirming officially that Zionist racism is way worse than that of the Nazis.

        Meanwhile, we still have seen no papers to prove descendence. Even if there were any papers, that would of course be totally irrelevant for residence claims –these have long expired. Also, there is the small problem: the Palestinians are still the most likely, much more likely than you, heirs of a shepherd “kingdom” in the back-country hills that perhaps existed for a few years.

        Next:

        Third Reich? Where are the gas chambers & crematoria?

        There were none, yet, in the 3rd Reich as late as 1941.
        Also, you seem to have missed the mass slaughters you have been committing up to now: not too slouchy, even if they are not entirely up to gas chamber standards. Yet.

      • Mooser
        October 12, 2017, 6:13 pm

        “So as we were saying, religion is inborn, not acquired and cannot be acquired, eh?”

        Exactly. Like I said, it’s easy to tell with the boys, anyway.

    • Jack Green
      October 11, 2017, 8:01 pm

      Mooser

      Evidence that what I said is wrong?

      • Jack Green
        October 12, 2017, 4:36 pm

        echinococcus

        What mass slaughters?

      • echinococcus
        October 12, 2017, 8:46 pm

        “what mass slaughters?” asks the Green Monster!

  5. lonely rico
    October 4, 2017, 5:59 pm

    “Sincere neighbor” feels uncomfortable, being reminded of the (ongoing) war crimes perpetrated by her beloved Zionist state on the powerless, imprisoned population of Gaza. Hamas and many of the residents react with venomous words, as they watch their children and families and friends being starved and maimed and murdered, and their cities and towns and farms and hospitals and mosques being destroyed by a merciless enemy. Understandable words.

    Zionists and their apologists seem think the cruelty and sadism of the Zionist state of Israel must be accepted in silence.

    “Sincere neighbor” would rather not be reminded of the dark moral void at the heart of the benighted state of Israel.

    PW’s friend is to be commended for reminding passers-by of the intolerable suffering and tragedy of Gaza

    • JeffB
      October 5, 2017, 6:52 am

      @lonely rico

      Sorry your theory doesn’t work. The venom came before the blockade not after. Hamas policy was the reason for the blockade. Hamas of Gaza after winning the election was given the opportunity to indicate it was willing to live in peace and refused. The Palestinians had a clear shot with Gaza to do state building and choose war instead.

      • Misterioso
        October 5, 2017, 9:35 am

        Briefly:

        In response to Hamas’s victory over Fatah (132 seats to 43) in the January 2006 election – certified as honest and democratic by international observers – for representation in the Palestinian Legislative Council (i.e. to govern both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip), Israel and the Quartet (the U.S., Russia, the European Union and the U.N., established in 2002) imposed economic sanctions, including customs duties, against the Palestinian Authority throughout the occupied territories. The United States had ignored warnings from Fatah that Hamas may win the election.

        Through various means, including Israel’s arrest of 34 elected West Bank members of Hamas, Washington and Israel installed a “moderate” (i.e., anti-Hamas, “pro-western” and relatively compliant) Fatah government led by Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) in the occupied West Bank. The U.S. Congress also thwarted an attempt by Fatah and Hamas to work together by holding back funding to the Palestinian authority.

        In June 2007, Hamas retained control of the Gaza Strip by carrying out a preventative counter-coup or counter-putsch against a U.S. orchestrated attempt by Fatah, known as the Dayton Plan, to take control by military means. In an article for the April 2008 issue of Vanity Fair, investigative journalist Peter Rose reveals the details: “Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by [Fatah’s Mohammed] Dahlan and armed with new weapons at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.) But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S. backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza.” (Peter Rose, “The Gaza Bombshell,” Vanity Fair, April 2008)

        Following the Hamas government’s defeat of Fatah, Israel and the Quartet along with Canada, imposed a crippling and inhumane blockade against the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip that denied them sufficient amounts of food, water, medicines, fuel and electricity. Previously imposed sanctions against the Fatah controlled West Bank were lifted. In violation of the terms of the 17 June 2008 cease-fire agreement with Hamas, Israel permitted only 20% of the amount of essentials agreed to into the Gaza Strip which led to sporadic rocket fire into Israel (causing no casualties) by Islamic Jihad and Fatah’s Al Aqsa Brigades, not Hamas, which attempted to stop the rockets. On November 4 – significantly, the day of the U.S. presidential election – Israel crossed the border and killed six Palestinians. As Middle East scholar Sara Roy put it, this attack by Israel was “no doubt designed finally to undermine the truce.” (Sara Roy – “If Gaza Falls”, London Review of Books, 1 January 2009) Hamas responded with rocket fire but at the same time offered to extend the June 17 truce if Israel would end the siege. Israel refused. Hamas rocket fire resumed and although no Israeli was killed, it was used by Israel as a justification for its murderous rampage that started on December 27.

      • Misterioso
        October 5, 2017, 9:52 am

        Furthermore:

        During its 2008/09 “Operation Cast Lead” assault on the Gaza Strip, Israel illegally used white phosphorous, which burns flesh to the bone, in attacks against civilians along with flechettes, i.e., 4-cm metal darts fired from missiles, planes or tanks “that penetrate straight through human bone and can cause serious, often fatal, injuries.” (It has also used cluster bombs during its attacks against and invasions of Lebanon.)

        In response to Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead,” the United Nations Goldstone Report charged Israel with using phosphorous incendiary shells on a UN compound sheltering more than 600 civilians, using phosphorous and high explosive artillery shells on Al-Quds hospital and it rejected Israel’s assertion that Hamas or other militants were using the hospital. Israel was also accused of attacking a crowded mosque during evening prayers (the panel rejected the contention that armed militants were inside), using flechettes and of using Palestinians as human shields during house searches, a “war crime under the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court.” No evidence was found that Hamas had used Palestinians as human shields.

        In a report issued on 2 July 2009, Amnesty International states that “more than 3,000 homes were destroyed and some 20,000 damaged in Israeli attacks which reduced entire neighborhoods of Gaza to rubble and left an already dire economic situation in ruins. Much of the destruction was wanton and could not be justified on grounds of ‘military necessity.’” Amnesty also noted that “During Operation ‘Cast Lead’ Israeli forces made extensive use of white phosphorus, often launched from 155mm artillery shells, in residential areas, causing death and injuries to civilians. Homes, schools, medical facilities and UN buildings – all civilian objects – took direct hits.”

        Neither Amnesty nor Human Rights Watch accused Hamas of using “human shields.” Amnesty, however, accused Israel.

    • Jack Green
      October 12, 2017, 4:34 pm

      echinococcus

      ” religion is inborn, not acquired and cannot be acquired, eh?”

      Religion is usually passed from parent to child. That does NOT mean that it’s inborn. That does NOT mean that it cannot be acquired.

      • echinococcus
        October 12, 2017, 9:04 pm

        Religion is usually passed from parent to child…

        per via vaginalis

  6. JosephA
    October 4, 2017, 11:09 pm

    I think it would have been more neighborly to sign his or her real name, rather than hiding behind anonymity. Introduce yourself to your neighbor, go grab tea or coffee, talk with them…

  7. DaBakr
    October 5, 2017, 12:08 am

    Is the letter writer definitely identified as Jewish? There are plenty of non Jews who don’t have a great opinion of the Hamas.

    I also don’t find the situation to be that unique for NYC . I’m sure in Greenpoint if you pinned up pro Russian/Putin flags the local Polish would kick their asses. They are that tough. And I wouldn’t be surprised if some cluck put up a big Trump portrait and got severely hassled by neighbors.
    PW is overreacting based on his own obsessions. In America I have seen dozens of bumper stickers and door stickers in bodegas with Palestinian flags, symbols, sayings. I doubt NYC Jews are that paranoid of anybody. Maybe in Phil’s knows a lot of nebishes

  8. Jack Green
    October 5, 2017, 2:26 pm

    If a white man put up a statue of Jefferson Davis on his front lawn & an African-American wrote him a letter saying that the statue upset him, would you blame the African-American?

    • eljay
      October 5, 2017, 2:40 pm

      || Jack Green: If a white man put up a statue of Jefferson Davis on his front lawn & an African-American wrote him a letter saying that the statue upset him, would you blame the African-American? ||

      You’re right: No-one can blame Palestinians for being upset that Zionists established a colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in most of their geographic region.

      • Jack Green
        October 5, 2017, 8:47 pm

        Why were Palestinians murdering Jews in 1920?

        Most of Palestine was used to create Trans-Jordan. No Jews allowed.

        What percent of Palestine was owned by Palestinians?
        What percent of Palestinians owned land?

        Argentina
        Bolivia
        Costa Rica
        El Salvador
        Liechtenstein
        Malta
        Monaco
        have established religions.

        So do
        Afghanistan (State religion)
        Algeria
        Bahrain
        Bangladesh
        Brunei
        Egypt (State religion)
        Iran (State religion)
        Iraq
        Jordan
        Kuwait
        Libya
        Malaysia
        Maldives (State religion)
        Mauritania
        Morocco
        Oman
        Pakistan (State religion)
        Qatar
        Saudi Arabia (Religion of the Kingdom)
        Somalia
        Tunisia
        United Arab Emirates (Religion of the Kingdom)
        Yemen
        Sunni Islam[change | change source]
        Algeria
        Malaysia
        Maldives (as state religion)
        Pakistan (as national-sanctioned religion)
        Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
        Somalia (as State Religion)
        Shi’a Islam[change | change source]
        Iran (Theocracy)
        Buddhism as state religion[change | change source]
        Governments which recognize Buddhism as their official religion:

        Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)
        Cambodia (Theravada Buddhism)
        Kalmykia, a republic within the Russian Federation (Tibetan Buddhism – sole Buddhist entity in Europe)[1]
        Thailand (Theravada Buddhism)
        Tibet Government in Exile (Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism)
        Myanmar- written in the 1974 constitution
        Sri Lanka

      • eljay
        October 5, 2017, 9:48 pm

        || Jack Green: Why were Palestinians murdering Jews in 1920? … ||

        It makes me kind of sad that you don’t start your replies with “eljay” anymore.  :-(

      • JeffB
        October 6, 2017, 7:49 am

        @Jack

        Excellent list! Well done sir.

      • Eva Smagacz
        October 6, 2017, 4:15 pm

        Jack Green

        You asked:
        “Why were Palestinians murdering Jews in 1920?”

        Are you referring to the 1920 Nebi Musa riots?

        Also known as 1920 Jerusalem riots took place in British-controlled part of Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (which would shortly become Mandatory Palestine) between Sunday, 4 and Wednesday, 7 April 1920 in and around the Old City of Jerusalem. Five Jews and four Arabs were killed.

        Let me go to Jabotinsky for an answer:

        My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other
        countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population.

        There is no such precedent.

        The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resistedthe colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not.
        The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or (as some people will remind us) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands; but the Pilgrim Fathers,the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface
        and the Redskin.

        Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against
        the good colonists as against the bad.

        Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators.

        http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf

        44/49

    • Mooser
      October 5, 2017, 5:58 pm

      “If a white man put up a statue of Jefferson Davis on his front lawn & an African-American wrote him a letter saying that the statue upset him, would you blame the African-American?”

      And when I think how the Zionists were transported as slaves to Palestine, and denied their rights even after the Palestinians emancipated them, why, the parallax between the two narratives is so clear!

      Now “Jack Green” will break into a chorus of “Nobody Knows the Tsuris We’ve Seen”

  9. Jack Green
    October 5, 2017, 7:07 pm

    “Who can challenge the rights of the Jews in Palestine? Good Lord, historically it is really your country. What a wonderful spectacle that will be when a people as resourceful as the Jews will once again be an independent nation, honored and complacent, able to make its contribution to needy humanity in the field of morals, as in the past.”

    Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, the Arab mayor of Jerusalem, in 1899 in a letter to Zadok Kahn, the chief rabbi of France about the rights of Jews to self-determination in the land of the Jews.

    • eljay
      October 5, 2017, 9:18 pm

      || Jack Green: … Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, the Arab mayor of Jerusalem, in 1899 in a letter to Zadok Kahn, the chief rabbi of France about the rights of Jews to self-determination in the land of the Jews. ||

      There is no “land of the Jews”, and the religion-based identity of Jewish does not comprise a right to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine. So what you’re saying is that Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi was a self-loathing Arab.

      • Jack Green
        October 6, 2017, 11:31 pm

        eljay

        Do the people of Denmark have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Denmark State” in Denmark?
        Do the people of Iceland have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Iceland State” in Iceland?
        Do the people of Norway have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Norway State” in Norway?
        Do the people of Finland have the right to a religion-supremacist “Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland in Finland?
        Do the people of England have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of England State” in
        England?

      • Jack Green
        October 6, 2017, 11:32 pm

        eljay

        I did not say that Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi was a self-loathing Arab.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 9:20 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack. :-)

        || … I did not say that Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi was a self-loathing Arab. ||

        You didn’t have to say it.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 9:26 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … Do the people of Denmark have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Denmark State” in Denmark? … ||

        No.

        || … Do the people of Iceland have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Iceland State” in Iceland? … ||

        No.

        || … Do the people of Norway have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of Norway State” in Norway? … ||

        No.

        || … Do the people of Finland have the right to a religion-supremacist “Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland in Finland? … ||

        No.

        || … Do the people of England have the right to a religion-supremacist “Church of England State” in England? ||

        No.

        My turn:
        1. Do you believe that the Jewish citizens of Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Finland and England have a right to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine?

        2. If the Jewish people of Israel are entitled to a “Jewish State” of Israel, what sort of Israel are the non-Jewish people of Israel (20% of its population) entitled to?

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 1:59 pm

        eljay

        I have no reason to assume that Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi was a self-loathing Arab. Do you?

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 3:00 pm

        eljay

        No.
        BTW, Israel is not a religion-supremacist state.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 3:38 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … I have no reason to assume that Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi was a self-loathing Arab. Do you? ||

        I have no reason to assume that Jews who oppose Zionism and its colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” project are self-loathing Jews. Do you?

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 3:40 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … No. … ||

        Please clarify:
        – To which question is that the answer?
        – What is the answer to the other question?

        Thanks.

        || … BTW, Israel is not a religion-supremacist state. ||

        BTW, it is.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 8:03 pm

        || Jack Green: … I would not assume that they are self-loathing Jews. I would assume that they are misinformed. ||

        I would say with certainty that Mr. al-Khalidi was misinformed.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 8:09 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … 1. Do you believe that the Jewish citizens of Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Finland and England have a right to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine?

        No. … ||

        Thanks for the clarification.

        || … Question #2 was only to be answered if I had said “Yes” to question #1. … ||

        Question # 2 – which is specific to Israelis – is independent of Question #1. Please provide an answer:

        2. If the Jewish people of Israel are entitled to a “Jewish State” of Israel (something a Zionist like you believes to be true), what sort of Israel are the non-Jewish people of Israel (20% of its population) entitled to?

        Thanks. :-)

        || … Evidence that Israel is a religion-supremacist “Jewish State?” ||

        Jewish is a religion-based identity. A state envisioned as, established as, defined as and maintained as a state primarily of and for all people in the world who choose to hold the religion-based identity of Jewish is a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2017, 9:49 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … I think that it’s good for Jews to have a majority-Jewish state considering how majority-gentile states have failed the Jews … ||

        Many states have failed their Jewish – and non-Jewish – minorities. The proper solution to acts of injustice and immorality committed against minorities:
        – is the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality;
        – is not the establishment by minorities of supremacist states in whichthey can do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

        || … but I don’t think that Jews are entitled a majority-Jewish state. … ||

        I agree.

        || … I think that gentile citizens in a majority-Jewish state should have the same rights as the Jews. … ||

        I’m with you: Equal rights for all people living in and up to n-generations removed from Partition-borders Israel.

        || … Israel is NOT religion based. It’s ethnic based. Israel will take in an atheist if his parents, grand-parents, etc. were Jews. ||

        Right: Israel will take in people who:
        – have undergone a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – are descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        The “Jewish State” won’t take in an atheist if his parents, etc., were not Jews. And it won’t grant to anyone a bureaucratic nationality of Jewish.

      • eljay
        October 8, 2017, 9:30 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … There never was & there never will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality;” … ||

        If Zionists and other like-minded evil-doers continue deliberately to undermine international laws and human rights, you may be right. I prefer a world in which we all try to be as good as we possibly can and not just a bit better than the worst that exists.

        || … On the other hand, there have been genocides in the past & there will be genocides in the future. … ||

        Jews exterminated 100% of Amalekites in the past. What are you proposing for the future?

        || … What if another Hitler arises & there is no Israel? ||

        Many people – including Romani, homosexuals and the mentally-ill – will suffer and die. It’s nice of you to offer to partition Israel so that these minorities can establish their very own supremacist states.

      • eljay
        October 8, 2017, 3:06 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … Even if all Zionists were perfect, still there will never will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality;” … ||

        But at least Zionists would be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Your argument – the unjust and immoral Zionist argument – is that rape is okay because murderers exist.

        || … And even if someday there will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality,” what do we do in the mean time to protect the oppressed minorities? … ||

        We do what we can. If you know someone is being raped, the wrong thing to do is to shrug your shoulders and say, “Well, there’s nothing we can do because murderers exist.”

        || … The archaeologist and historian Hugo Winckler suggested in 1895 that there were never any such people and the Biblical stories concerning them are entirely mythological and without any connection to actual historical events. … ||

        Shame on Mr. Winckler for denying the genocide of Amalekites. (I’m glad it wasn’t Henry Winkler who denied it.)

        || … I’m not Israeli, so I can’t offer to partition Israel. … ||

        You’re not Palestinian but you have no problem justifying, supporting and defending the partition of Palestine.

        || … However, I am American & I do favor partitioning the USA so oppressed minorities can have their own countries. ||

        Best of luck with that. :-)

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 8, 2017, 3:36 pm

        Jack:

        “Do the people of Finland have the right to a religion-supremacist “Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland in Finland..”

        Well, in Finland everyone has the same rights, meaning: It does not matter, if you are a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist or what ever, you will still have the same rights to buy land, move/travel around the country, decide for yourself where you want to live, work, go to school or whatever you wish to do. The Church has no role in defining anyones civil rights: It can decide, if it wants to marry (?) a gay couple in it’s holy matrimony, but it can’t prevent the gay couple getting married in a civil matrimony in a magistrate..

        So please do not use examples you know nothing of.. I’d like to remind you, that I have also lived as a “Gentile” (I guess I learned that word from you) in Israel. So I know very well, how that system works too..

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 7:57 pm

        eljay

        Israel is part of the solution. There are 60 million refugees. ZERO are Jews.
        Israel has taken in more refugees proportional to its population than any other country.

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 8:04 pm

        Kaisa of Finland

        One of reasons given for why Palestinians have rejected every peace plan put forward by Israel is that Israel wants to be recognized as a Jewish State. The Palestinians’ excuse for rejection is that recognizing Israel as a Jewish State would mean that non-Jews would be second-class citizens. You’ve confirmed that even having an established religion doesn’t have to mean that people who aren’t of that religion will be treated badly. Finland is an excellent example. Thank you.

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 8:13 pm

        eljay

        I did not say “that rape is okay because murderers exist.”

      • Jack Green
        October 8, 2017, 8:22 pm

        eljay

        For years, women who were beaten by their husbands, boyfriends or lovers had no refuge to escape to.

        We could have waited for “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality”

        OR

        We could have established Womens Shelters.

        ……………………………………………………………

        For years, gentiles oppressed Jews.

        We could have waited for “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality”

        OR

        We could have established established Israel.

      • eljay
        October 8, 2017, 8:26 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … Israel is part of the solution. … ||

        If the “solution” is oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism, I agree that Israel is part of the “solution”.

        || … There are 60 million refugees. ZERO are Jews. … ||

        But a LOT of them are non-Jewish Israelis that Israel should care about but doesn’t care about because, being a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”, it prefers to import non-Israeli Jews.

        || … Israel has taken in more refugees proportional to its population than any other country. ||

        A very quick Google says you’re (deliberately?) wrong. Here is just one example:

        Turkey hosts the most refugees of any country with 2.77 million. Pakistan comes second with 1.58 million while Lebanon is in third place overall with 1.04 million. As a share of the populatuon, however, Lebanon hosts the most refugees by far with 173 per 1,000 of its inhabitants. Jordan comes second with 89 per 1,000 of its population and Nauru rounds off the top three with 50 per 1,000 people. …

      • eljay
        October 8, 2017, 10:35 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … For years, women who were beaten by their husbands, boyfriends or lovers had no refuge to escape to.
        We could have waited for “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality”
        OR
        We could have established Womens Shelters. … ||

        If you think really, really hard about it, you just might realize that unlike Jews seeking refuge, women seeking refuge never invaded a geographic region, committed terrorism and ethnic cleansing and established a colonialist, (war) criminal and supremacist state.

        You’re doing a damned fine job with the first half of idiot-savant.

        || … I did not say “that rape is okay because murderers exist.” ||

        You and your fellow Zionists say it all the time. You just say it Zionistically.

      • Sibiriak
        October 8, 2017, 10:51 pm

        Jack Green: For years, women who were beaten by their husbands, boyfriends or lovers had no refuge to escape to. We could have waited for “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality” OR We could have established Womens Shelters.
        ————————————————————
        For years, gentiles oppressed Jews. We could have waited for “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality” OR We could have established established Israel.

        =======================================================

        Jack, the fatal flaw of that analogy is this:

        The establishment of Israel has involved–actually required–the denial of the Palestinians’ right to self-determination, their ethnic cleansing, their oppression, and the establishment of an apartheid regime of occupation.

        The establishment of women’s shelters involves no such denial of rights or oppressive regime.

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 4:29 am

        @Sibiriak

        The establishment of Israel has involved–actually required–the denial of the Palestinians’ right to self-determination, their ethnic cleansing, their oppression, and the establishment of an apartheid regime of occupation.

        Involved not required. The Palestinians choose roads that led there. You can see how Zionism was able to expand to incorporate Mizrahi Jews, which early Zionism didn’t consider. You can see how there were different relationships with Palestinians temporally as they choose different relationship with Zionism. You can see how different subgroups of Palestinians have had different relationships.

        Imagine a Palestinian leader in 1910 seeing the next 100 years and knowing what a disaster their policies would be. I don’t think they make the same choices and those different choices result in very different outcomes. One can imagine what Palestine would be like if Zionism had never come. One can equally imagine what Palestine would be like if anti-colonialism had never come. It was the clash between those forces that led and continues to lead to the Palestinian’s destruction, not one or the other. It was not historically inevitable that Palestinians would develop a national consciousness, that required a lot of work from Syria.

        The citizens of the colony of Massachusetts didn’t view the establishment of a Quaker colony in Pennsylvania as an invasion of their territory by heretics. The citizens of the colony of Pennsylvania didn’t view the religious oppression in Massachusetts as something they needed to correct. The English Catholics pushed into the colony of Maryland didn’t view themselves as being ethnically cleansed by Lord Baltimore they viewed themselves as being given a glorious opportunity to have a better life.

        Non-European people make political choices as well. They aren’t automatons. They are capable of evaluating their circumstances and responding rationally. And they entitled to be held to the same standards of good government.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 9, 2017, 10:15 am

        Jack:

        “You’ve confirmed that even having an established religion doesn’t have to mean..”

        Are we having somekind of misunderstanding here??

        In 1869, Finland was the first Nordic country to disestablish its Evangelical Lutheran church by introducing the Church Act. So “Lutheranity” is not described as a state religion in the Finnish Constitution or other laws passed by the Finnish Parliament.

        About 25,3% of Finnish population does not have any religion at all and if you do not wish, you can live all your life here without ever telling anyone about your religion or what you believe in.

        After living in Israel I know very well, non-Jews have not equal rights with the Jewish citizens of Israel. For me it did not matter, of course, cause I could just leave and move to live somewhere else, but there are people there, who have no other fair choice.

        I do not understand who can honestly think that when the Zionists arrived to Palestine and took over the Palestinian land, homes and villges, they should have just said: “Oh please, you’re wellcome, just take my house, I’ll move to the garden to live..”

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 11:17 am

        eljay

        I should have made clear that when Israel took in Jewish refugees it granted them citizenship.
        It didn’t just keep them locked up in refugee camps.

        At least 300,000 Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon in what Human Rights Watch calls”appalling social and economic conditions.” They’re blocked from working in a variety of professions, and the Lebanese government has largely resisted granting them broader property rights.

        The Redditor quotes British member of Parliament Gerald Kaufman on his 2011 visit to the refugee camps in Lebanon:

        When I went to Gaza in 2010 I thought I had seen the worst that could be seen of the appalling predicament of Palestinians living in conditions which no human being should be expected to endure. But what I saw in the camps in Lebanon is far worse and far more hopeless. The conditions are unspeakable, but for over 400,000 of our fellow human beings this is their life: today, tomorrow and for a future that cannot even be foreseen. At least in Gaza, frightful though the situation is, the people are free within the confines of their blockaded prison. In the camps of Lebanon they are not free.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 11:36 am

        “For years, women who were beaten by their husbands, boyfriends or lovers had no refuge to escape to.”

        ROTFLMSJAO! A Zionist tells us about love and marriage.

        Hey, “Jack”, are you seated? Okay. Where I live, if a guy assaults his wife, and she reports it he will more than likely go to jail.
        I know, unbelievable, you can’t just bounce a few off the old lady’s phys and send her to a shelter.

      • eljay
        October 9, 2017, 1:21 pm

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … I should have made clear … ||

        …that your claim that “Israel has taken in more refugees proportional to its population than any other country” was false?

        … that Israel prefers to import non-Israeli Jews rather than repatriate its non-Jewish Israeli refugees?

        … that in your opinion the “solution” is oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism and that’s why you believe Israel is part of the “solution”?

        Yes, you should have made those things clear.

        || … At least 300,000 Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon in what Human Rights Watch calls”appalling social and economic conditions.” … ||

        See that right there? That’s you Zionistically saying “murderers exist, so it’s OK to rape”.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 9, 2017, 1:23 pm

        Jack:

        ” But what I saw in the camps in Lebanon is far worse and far more hopeless..”

        And why is it, that those Palestinians are living in a refugee camp in Lebanon, instead of living in their original lands, villages and homes in Palestine??

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 5:29 pm

        Mooser

        In the past, the abusive husband, boyfriend or lover did not go to jail.
        Womens Shelters saved many lives.

      • RoHa
        October 9, 2017, 10:02 pm

        Does Finland demand to be recognized as a Lutheran State?

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 10:49 pm

        @RoHa

        Yeah… the fought in a war against the Catholic kings to get this concession: “And since for the greater Tranquillity of the Empire, in its general Assemblys of Peace, a certain Agreement has been made between the Emperor, Princes and States .of the Empire, which has been inserted in the Instrument and Treaty of Peace, concluded with the Plenipotentiarys of the Queen and Crown of Swedeland, touching the Differences about Ecclesiastical Lands, and the Liberty of the Exercise of Religion; it has been found expedient to confirm,and ratify it by this present Treaty, in the same manner as the abovesaid Agreement has been made with the said Crown of Swedeland; also with those call’d the Reformed, in the same manner, as if the words of the abovesaid Instrument were reported here verbatim. ” (Finland was part of the Swedish empire at the time)

        Pretty much a Lutheran state was completely illegitimate. Then the Swedish empire killed a lot of Spanish troops and Lutheran state was completely legitimate. Took about 120 years of killing people to get to that point that a Spanish Emperor could write something like that. The Pope is technically still grumbling but no one intends to invade Finland to put them back under Catholic rule. Israel is 69 years old so only 1/2 way through the process, I should mention having killed far fewer people than Sweden/Finland did. Which just proves the double standard.

        Arguably Israel is already at the begrudging acceptance with grumbling part. The only people seeking a forced conversion of Israel to a Muslim state are you all and Iran. The mainstream argument is about the borders of the Jewish state.

      • eljay
        October 10, 2017, 7:31 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Jack.

        || … ” in your opinion the “solution” is oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism ”

        That is not my opinion. ||

        You’re a Zionist – it is very much your opinion that the solution to acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews…
        – is not the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality; but, rather,
        – is oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism committed by Jews against non-Jews.

      • eljay
        October 10, 2017, 11:29 am

        || Jack Green: eljay … ||

        Please don’t put words in my mouth. … ||

        I wouldn’t dream of putting anything in your mouth.

        || … I am against oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism. … ||

        …except in the case of Zionism and its oppressive, colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” construct.

        || … Definition of Zionism … ||

        JewishVirtualLibrary.org:

        … the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. …

        IOW: Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine.

        || … I don’t see anything in the definition about oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism. ||

        Of course you don’t: You’re a Zionist.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 10, 2017, 2:32 pm

        RoHa:

        “Does Finland demand to be recognized as a Lutheran State??”

        Oh, thank G-O-D no!!

        We also do not need any religious control from the govermental level and neither do we need anyone dividing people to the chosen and not-that-chosen ones..

      • Mooser
        October 11, 2017, 12:55 pm

        “In the past, the abusive husband, boyfriend or lover did not go to jail.” “Dabakr”

        No doubt you know what you are talking about. I can’t contradict you from my own experience.

    • Jack Green
      October 7, 2017, 7:26 pm

      eljay “I have no reason to assume that Jews who oppose Zionism and its colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” project are self-loathing Jews. ”

      I would not assume that they are self-loathing Jews. I would assume that they are misinformed.

      • YoniFalic
        October 7, 2017, 8:04 pm

        I have a PhD from Columbia in Jewish Studies.

        Zionism is a particularly vicious form of 19th century-style white racist European genocidal colonialism in which European invaders destroy or expel a native population in order to create space to move in white racist Europeans and possibly a favored non-European population to play a servile role.

        There is no place on the planet for such an ideology any more than there is a place for 19th century-style white racist enslavement of people that descend from sub-Saharan African populations.

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 8:40 pm

        eljay

        I think that it’s good for Jews to have a majority-Jewish state considering how majority-gentile states have failed the Jews, but I don’t think that Jews are entitled a majority-Jewish state.

        I think that gentile citizens in a majority-Jewish state should have the same rights as the Jews.

        Israel is NOT religion based. It’s ethnic based. Israel will take in an atheist if his parents, grand-parents, etc. were Jews.

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 8:43 pm

        YoniFalic

        Nonsense!
        Evidence that Herzl, the father of Zionism, called for genocide?

      • Jack Green
        October 7, 2017, 10:55 pm

        eljay

        There never was & there never will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality;”

        On the other hand, there have been genocides in the past & there will be genocides in the future.

        What if another Hitler arises & there is no Israel?

      • oldgeezer
        October 8, 2017, 1:01 am

        @jackie

        Yes, Israel will take in atheists if they have the right religious pedigree. It is a religious supremacist state by it’s own definition. Jews are not a race (unless you agree with nazis and antisemities). They ars also not an ethnicity as people of the Jewish faith are found within many ethnicities from Asia to Africa to Europe and now the Americas. Their commonality is sharing the same religious beliefs or being descended from those who share those beliefs on their mother’s side. Of course that it is based on their mother’s side is also a religious restriction.

        Zionism started as a secular movement for sure but it mirrored thaf antisemitic belief of racists who considered people of the Jewish faith as the other. It has used that antisemitic basis as a core foundation. It is as unacceptable and racist for zionists to hold thay belief as for non zionists or non Jews. It is founded and sustained on vile, vulgar and, in the case of Israel, viscious violent and barbaric bigoted principles.

        Depraved and despicable.

      • Nathan
        October 8, 2017, 2:42 am

        Yoni – You have chosen to live in a country that was established through an invasion of Europeans who destroyed and expelled a native population over an entire continent. Some of us in this forum were merely born in that political entity, so we can claim that there were circumstances beyond our control. However, you have chosen to be an invader whose good life is founded on the destruction of others. You even have a PhD from a university founded by the colonialists on territory illegally acquired from the natives. So, it simply can’t be that you object to the ideology that you have willingly joined. I would suggest (as an act of intellectual honesty) that you return the PhD, and hand yourself over to the International Court in the Hague. Justice, justice shalt thou pursue…

      • amigo
        October 8, 2017, 11:25 am

        “What if another Hitler arises & there is no Israel” Jacko.

        Jacko , Israel (sans fromtiere) is more likely to win the soccer world cup before another Hitler shows up.

        But listen , Zionists are busy destroying the so called one and only “Jewish State ” and it is them you should address your concerns to.

        Oh I forgot , you are one of them.Oh well , keep up he good work jacko.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 11:40 am

        “What if another Hitler arises & there is no Israel?”

        He would have to go all over the world, and determine who is Jewish, and convince countries to turn them over to him. Instead of having all the Jews concentrated in one spot, and in a form (a country) it is perfectly legal to make war on. States get in wars.

        And there are these things called missiles and airplanes…

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 5:40 pm

        Mooser

        Suppose the new Hitler arises in France. There are 460,000 Jews in France.
        Suppose the new Hitler demands that all Jews leave France & no one is willing to take them.
        The new Hitler will do what the old Hitler did.

        However, if there is Israel, then the French Jews can go to Israel. No genocide.

      • RoHa
        October 9, 2017, 10:05 pm

        “What if another Hitler arises”

        What if another Hitler doesn’t arise? Then the torment of the Palestinians will have been for nothing.

        Do you seriously want to say that the mere possibility of future injustice to Jews justifies the actual, current , injustice to Palestinians?

    • Jack Green
      October 7, 2017, 7:30 pm

      eljay

      1. Do you believe that the Jewish citizens of Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Finland and England have a right to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine?

      No.

      Question #2 was only to be answered if I had said “Yes” to question #1.

      Evidence that Israel is a religion-supremacist “Jewish State?”

    • Jack Green
      October 8, 2017, 12:09 pm

      eljay

      I’m not Israeli, so I can’t offer to partition Israel.
      However, I am American & I do favor partitioning the USA so oppressed minorities can have their own countries.

    • Jack Green
      October 8, 2017, 12:13 pm

      eljay

      The archaeologist and historian Hugo Winckler suggested in 1895 that there were never any such people and the Biblical stories concerning them are entirely mythological and without any connection to actual historical events.

    • Jack Green
      October 8, 2017, 12:18 pm

      eljay

      Even if all Zionists were perfect, still there will never will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality;”

      And even if someday there will be “universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality,” what do we do in the mean time to protect the oppressed minorities?

    • Jack Green
      October 9, 2017, 11:38 am

      Kaisa of Finland

      Wikipedia says that Finland has an established religion. You may want to correct Wikipedia.

      https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Protestant

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 12:19 pm

        ” You may want to correct Wikipedia.”

        Sure, why not? Almost anybody can.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 9, 2017, 4:13 pm

        Jack:

        “Wikipedia says that Finland ..”

        “7 out of 10 Finns are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, which was disestablished in 1869 by the Church Act. It was the first state church to be disestablished in the Nordic countries, to be followed by the Church of Sweden in 2000. .”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

    • Jack Green
      October 9, 2017, 9:54 pm

      eljay

      ” in your opinion the “solution” is oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism ”

      That is not my opinion.

    • Jack Green
      October 10, 2017, 10:18 am

      eljay

      Please don’t put words in my mouth.
      I am against oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism.

      Definition of Zionism (Merriam-Webster): “an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel”

      I don’t see anything in the definition about oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        October 10, 2017, 3:37 pm

        Jack Green said on October10, 2017, at 10:18 am:

        Please don’t put words in my mouth.

        Please stop posting delusional Zionist nonsense.

        Jack Green said on October10, 2017, at 10:18 am:

        I am against oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism.

        Definition of Zionism (Merriam-Webster): “an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

        And precisely how did your foreign “international movement” manage to establish “a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine”, dimwit?

        Spoiler alert: It was by the oppression of the indigenous Palestinian gentile population, who constituted the vast majority of the population (i.e., prior to the initial Zionist ethnic cleansing campaign that took place in Palestine between 1947 and 1949), by violent colonialism, (war) crimes and Zionist “supremacism” (aka Zionist apartheid).

        Jack Green said on October10, 2017, at 10:18 am:

        I don’t see anything in the definition about oppression, colonialism, (war) crimes and supremacism.

        That’s only because you don’t see anything beyond the end of your ridiculous Zionist nose, sweetie.

  10. JosephA
    October 6, 2017, 12:16 am

    Theodor Herzl (German): The Zionist idea, of which I am the humble servant, harbors no hostility toward the Ottoman Government. In allowing Jews to immigrate and bring their intelligence, their financial acumen and their sense of enterprise, no one can doubt that the entire country would benefit.

    Yusuf Khalidi (Arabic): The reality is that Palestine is now an integral part of the Ottoman empire. And what is even more serious, it is inhabited by others than Israelites.

    Theodor Herzl (German): Do you really believe that an Arab who owns land in Palestine, or a house worth 3-4,000 francs, will be sorry to see its value rise five- or ten-fold?

    Yusuf Khalidi (Arabic): Jewish wealth cannot purchase Palestine. The day will never come when the Zionists will become masters of this country. For God’s sake, leave Palestine in peace!

    SOURCES:
    Jerusalem 1913: the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Amy Dockser Marcus, Viking, Apr 19, 2007
    Before Their Diaspora: A Photographic History of the Palestinians, 1876-1948, Walid Khalidi, Institute for Palestine Studies, 1984

    • Nathan
      October 8, 2017, 3:17 am

      JosephA – Give a good look at the quotes that you have brought to our attention. Yusuf Khalidi tells us that “the reality is that Palestine is now an integral part of the Ottoman empire…” Yes, that, indeed, was the reality (from the 16th to the 20th century). Khalidi feels that reality is something that must be respected. So, here’s reality of the 21st century: The State of Israel has been established.

      Quite a few readers in this forum are busy with reviewing the historical events surrounding the founding of Israel. In the Arab world, many writers and thinkers are busy trying to explain to themselves how such an “illogical” development could have taken place. “It just shouldn’t have happened” seems to be a theme in this forum as well. Well, it happened, and that’s that. Even though you might be nostalgic for the Ottoman Empire, one hundred years later might be a good time to get over it.

    • Jack Green
      October 8, 2017, 8:59 am

      oldgeezer

      I think we are trying to put square pegs in round holes. In some ways Israel is religion-based & in some ways it’s not. If it were truly-religion based, it would not accept atheists.

      What is your objection to religion-based?

      What vile, vulgar, vicious, violent and barbaric bigoted principles do you see in Zionism?

      • oldgeezer
        October 8, 2017, 11:38 am

        @jack

        “If it were truly-religion based, it would not accept atheists.”

        But it doesn’t. You intentionally dropped the qualifier. It accepts atheists who have the right religious pedigree.

        “What is your objection to religion-based?”

        No objection to the observance of certain holidays etc and provided it’s a state for all it’s citizens and doesn’t discriminate on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexuality, ethnicity. Of course Israel does discriminate in a number of those areas. In fact discrimination is a key value for zionism.

        “What vile, vulgar, vicious, violent and barbaric bigoted principles do you see in Zionism?”

        Read it’s history. That’s the reality of zionism.

      • JeffB
        October 8, 2017, 2:09 pm

        @Jack

        You are doing good against the double standards. A quick point on the term “religion”. Colonies like Massachusetts were founded on the desire for a regenerate church. That is a church of believers and people who act consistently with those beliefs not merely a church of all citizens. They way them aimed to achieve this was through having a regenerate citizenry. Within a few generations of course you arrive at the problem of what to do with the clearly non-regenerate residents. The way this gets resolved in colonial America is a strong belief in a regenerate church with citizenship not tied to religion. And within 2 generations that evolves into an explicit “separation of church and state” (though what they mean by that doctrine is somewhat weaker than what we mean in 2017).

        That model of religion is American. It is not universal. As America’s cultural influence has grown it has spread but colonial America is the native soil and the USA is where that ideas grows. It is starting to have substantial influence in Western Europe and Latin America where “religion” and “personal beliefs” are becoming unified. And because people don’t know their own history they are assuming this is universal.

        Most of the world has never gone through that conflict. Your “religion” has nothing to do with belief but rather with your ethnicity. Western Europe historically this system broke down in a different way due to an attempt to take over the state church by people with different theologies. They ended up with diversity but most diversity being geographic. If you live in a Lutheran state you are Lutheran, in a Presbyterian state Presbyterian, a Catholic state Catholic. People in Finland mostly don’t understand the distinctions between Luther and Calvin’s position and justification well enough to either believe or disbelieve in them.

        As you go further east the Reformation events never happened. The church and the state are comfortably unified. Your choice of church is essentially a product of your ethnicity not your theology. A person is Greek Orthodox vs. Russian Orthodox because he’s Greek not because he holds that one does not need to take confession every before communion.

        Everybody involved in the Israel / Palestinian conflict evolved in Byzantine societies: Eastern European Jews, Arabic Jews , Arabic christians and Arab Muslims. They all share a Byzantine definition of religion which conflicts with the Western one. The definition of religion is not a point of dispute in the I/P conflict.

        This definition is however a point of dispute with leftist bigots who can’t understand that not everyone in the world should agree with them about everything . They believe in credo-baptist theology (you join a religion as you personally believe in it). Moreover they believe that’s the only definition of religion in the world. It isn’t. By defining the terms in a way supportive of western values you are putting Israeli at a disadvantage.

        Israelis mostly don’t have the cultural background to even understand what Americans mean by religion and separation of church and state much less to accept it or reject it. The hostility here is just MW propaganda which when unraveled just means that Israel really is a foreign country populated by foreigners and not another state in the USA.

      • amigo
        October 8, 2017, 5:44 pm

        “By defining the terms in a way supportive of western values you are putting Israeli at a disadvantage. ” jeffyboy

        Wait a minute –doesn,t Israel want to be seen as a “Western Style Democracy”.

        Better get with the plan jeffyboy.We in the west are fully behind the separation of Church and State.The only people putting Israel at a disadvantage are the zionist congregation and it,s supporters.A collective cultural and societal death wish.

        Go figure.

      • Mooser
        October 8, 2017, 7:22 pm

        .“A collective cultural and societal death wish”

        And best of all, Zionism has absolutely no way of compelling Jews outside of Israel (and an awful lot of Jews inside Israel) to do anything they don’t want to.
        Or anything which may have societal or legal repercussions.

      • RoHa
        October 8, 2017, 10:04 pm

        “You are doing good against the double standards.”

        You are doing well against the double standards.

        But Rabbi Thingybob will not be happy about that. He says that the standards that apply to Jews are different from those that apply to other people, doesn’t he?

      • JeffB
        October 9, 2017, 4:51 am

        @RoHa

        “You are doing good against the double standards.”

        You are doing well against the double standards.

        Quite true, thank you for the correction. And a wonderful example of you not applying a double standard. That would have been an equally bad error for a Christian.

        But Rabbi Thingybob will not be happy about that. He says that the standards that apply to Jews are different from those that apply to other people, doesn’t he?

        Nope. I think you are getting that from Beemer. Basically he heard a religious lecture on Halacha that he understood about 5% of. So he took that 5% way out of context. He then distorted and exaggerated that 5% and then started treating it as a somehow fundamental Jewish tenant even though the speaker quite clearly indicates repeatedly he is proposing a non-mainstream approach and why he is doing so. His interest was in how to legislate (religious law not civil) on topics that Shulchan Aruch et al have nothing to say because Jews didn’t have state power of any kind for so long.

        As I said to Beamer at the time. He didn’t have the background for that talk and didn’t understand it at all. I don’t have the background for that talk. I could understand what the Rabbi was arguing but can’t come to a judgement on the specific examples, they are beyond my education. Yonah is probably the only one here who might have the background for that talk and be able to intelligently engage the material in it.

        That sort of thing in a microcosm though is why BDS is accused of antisemitism. Confronted with a bunch of stuff he didn’t understand Beamer choose to assume the worst and then started treating his misreading and misunderstanding as if it were true getting obnoxious and personal when I tried to correct.

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 2:58 pm

        “Confronted with a bunch of stuff he didn’t understand Beamer choose to assume the worst and then started treating his misreading and misunderstanding as if it were true getting obnoxious and personal when I tried to correct.”

        You don’t say?

      • RoHa
        October 9, 2017, 10:22 pm

        Since I am tidying things up, “a somehow fundamental Jewish tenant” lives in the basement flat. I suspect you mean “Jewish tenet”. And good luck in trying to get a Jewish tenet to pay the rent.

        So you are saying that Jews do not think in terms of “one law for the Jews, different law for the Gentiles”, never ask for any sort of special treatment because they are Jews, or anything like that?

  11. Ossinev
    October 8, 2017, 3:37 pm

    @Jack Green
    “I’m not Israeli, so I can’t offer to partition Israel.
    However, I am American & I do favor partitioning the USA so oppressed minorities can have their own countries”

    Just for clarification you say you can`t offer to partition Israel but you do “favor” partitioning the USA.

    Do you “favor” partitioning Israel to allow for the Palestinian Arabs between the ” River and Sea”? If so can you outline the geography and governance arising from your”favored” partition.

    • amigo
      October 9, 2017, 3:12 pm

      “Do you “favor” partitioning Israel to allow for the Palestinian Arabs between the ” River and Sea”? If so can you outline the geography and governance arising from your”favored” partition.”0ssinev to jacko.3,37 pm yesterday.

      Jacko , we await with bated breath for your reply.Perhaps you are awaiting a reply from Hasbara central.They are usually much quicker with their response.

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 9:58 pm

        amigo

        I’d like to see a Jewish State living in peace with a Palestinian state consisting of the West Bank & Gaza with borders drawn by a military person who knows how to make defensible borders.

        What would you like to see?

  12. just
    October 8, 2017, 5:06 pm

    It may come as no surprise that I love that sign/graphic and the letter disgusts me with its lies and libel and harassment. I am happy that the caring human that has the sign in his window is a friend of Phil’s.

    I just read this opinion piece in Haaretz that might provide clarity for those that represent Israel/Zionism as the victim . It’s behind the ‘wall’, and I apologize for the length, but it’s well worth the read:

    “Imagine if Jews Were Locked Away Behind Concrete Walls for 11 Days …

    My team in Gaza were especially fond of one brand of Israeli honey cookies.  We gorged whenever we spotted them, a Hebrew label among the Arabic. I dawdled over that label one morning, imagining Hebron settlers sipping coffee with Gaza strawberries.

    My colleague misunderstood my reverie, and helpfully reminded me, “It’s just a cookie. It’s not politics.” The settlers with the red-stained fingers vanished.

    Living in Gaza, the rest of the world could look absurd.
      
    Newt Gingrich, an American politician, disparaged Palestinians as “an invented people”. A Gazan colleague flounced into my office. Hands on hips, she demanded, “Isn’t everybody invented?”

    Israelis and Gazans had such basic, human things in common. At funeral after funeral, they both said, “Those boys were everyone’s boys. I have lost one more son.”

    Some people preferred the safe distance of binary distinctions. One Tel Aviv taxi driver insisted, “We can’t live together because we’re human beings and they’re not.”
    When we cannot even imagine living together, we underestimate all the creativity, the money, the technology and infrastructure, and the hard work that has gone into keeping us apart. 

    We slip down the self-referential slope: it’s all about us. We see only our suffering and our reasons, and we brandish the license of our losses. History becomes a litany of gestures made to straw men, who inexplicably rejected each one because they only understand violence. How could we live with straw men like that?

    So the leaders of two nations with long memories wait for the other to forget, or be punished enough, or just go away.

    Israel insists on its good motives but cannot ascribe the same to Palestinians. Palestinians are judged by their actions, overlaid with malevolent intentions. 

    Israelis at home are civilians; Palestinians in their homes are human shields. Dead Israeli civilians are victims of terror, while dead Gazans can only be collateral damage, because the IDF has its purity of arms. An IDF poster from the 2014 war made it simple: Israel uses weapons to protect civilians, while Hamas uses civilians to protect its weapons. There’s no living with people like that. 

    These are not the first belligerents to lie, or to wilfully refuse to see the humanity of the other side. As a witness in Gaza from 2011 to 2015, I was outraged by the asymmetry and the tactics of this conflict, and the failure of imagination – but I’m not Israeli. And I’m hardly the first Jew who has waded through the fission-fusion-fission reaction of recognizing Israel as a state rather than as a religion. 

    I was left with the dismay I might feel if my sister erupted in repeated, violent road rage. I didn’t do it. However, she is a part of me. The name on the warrant is also mine.

    So it is, when Israel’s elected government attaches Judaism to its apparently inalienable right to dominate. In the name of religion, they withhold from others precisely the human rights that we Jews claim for ourselves. Their religious appropriation makes us more than witnesses. 

    Netanyahu seals the gates of the West Bank and Gaza for eleven days, to enjoy Sukkot. How flagrant, to confine millions of people in the name of a holiday that celebrates the flimsy, temporary nature of our walls.

    If Jews were herded behind concrete walls and locked away for eleven days, so that someone else might enjoy a Jew-free holiday, would we shrug that off?

    We tolerate a nationalism which withholds from others precisely the political rights that we claim for ourselves. Have we forgotten that statelessness was the problem statement of Zionism? Jews felt vulnerable and voiceless in a world comprised of states – yet we avert our eyes from the stateless peril of others. 

    We accept the straw men they show us. If Jewish nationalism requires this domination, we assume that Palestinian aspirations must be as lopsided.  Their rights would necessarily be realized at our expense, wouldn’t they?  We leave every better possibility unexamined, because we have already decided that we cannot live together. We’ve been primed.

    Naturally, Netanyahu is preventatively foreclosing on Palestinian reconciliation. 

    We’ve seen this. In 2014, this was one of the last way-stations before a calamitous and (according to Israel’s State Comptroller) avoidable war. First there was no Palestinian interlocutor who could deliver all of Palestine. Then, overnight, at the prospect of reconciliation, there was no acceptable Palestinian interlocutor because someone might represent all of Palestine. The risks of war are more tolerable than the risks of compromise.

    Why do we permit it? Netanyahu invokes the spectre – they all want to kill us. They always, only, want to kill us. That’s why we can’t live together, because Israel’s strength is the only Jewish safety. Be very afraid. Build walls. Then build more walls.

    The Global Militarization Index ranks Israel as the most militarized country on earth, a distinction it has held for 17 of the past 25 years (Israel was ranked second from 1999 – 2006). Israel has imprisoned itself, and still finds it necessary to spend another $800 million, on yet more walls, to hide itself from immiserated Gaza. 

    So, um, are we safe yet? 

    No. There is no separate safety in our entropic time. Jews, and everyone else, will become safe in a tolerant world, when Jews enjoy the same rights as those human beings behind the walls.
    Call all this brick-laying ‘Israeli’, if that is what you want ‘Israeli’ to mean. But do not call it Jewish, because oppression is not the content of Judaism.  Value life, and resist its waste. Seek justice – that is the content I understand. We are failing at it.”

    Marilyn Garson lived and worked in Gaza from 2011 – 2015, as the Economic Director of Mercy Corps and the Business and Livelihoods Consultant to UNRWA.  She is a co-founder of the Gaza Gateway social enterprise.  She now writes from New Zealand.  Her blog is Transforming Gaza.

    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.816189

    Seems that she may have refined and yet repeats some of her ideas from this:

    http://mondoweiss.net/2017/03/reading-maimonides-gaza/

    An evolution continues?

  13. just
    October 8, 2017, 5:45 pm

    Sure they do, but they are always acting offensively.

    So, huh?

    “Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. From 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed 27 Israeli civilians, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians[5] and injured more than 1900 people,[citation needed] ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

    Doncha think that the “1900 people” need to be verified? Who are they?

    Oh, and by the way:

    “Rocket Fired From Gaza Towards Southern Israel, IDF Confirms

    All of the rocket fire and shelling from Gaza this year were not orchestrated by Hamas but rather by small Salafist-Jihadist organizations in the enclave

    A rocket was fired from the Gaza Strip at southern Israel on Sunday evening. Warning sirens sounded in the Eshkol Regional Council communities next to the Gaza border. According to Israel Defense Forces, no injuries or damage was reported.

    The rocket, which was fired from southern Gaza, most likely exploded near the Strip’s border with Israel. The army, after working to identify where the rocket fell, later reported that it apparently exploded in Gazan airspace. …”

    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.816244?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    And another btw: Please state honestly how many Palestinians have been murdered, bombed, maimed, expelled, imprisoned with no charges, shattered since forever by Israel. Thank you in advance.

    • just
      October 9, 2017, 3:09 am

      My last comment is in response to ‘Jack Green’s’ “Palestinians rockets have killed or wounded 2,000 Israelis. Israel has every right to defend itself.”.

      Sorry that I misplaced it. Waiting for an answer… Perhaps he can read my previous quotation and gain some insight (or not). *sigh*

    • Jack Green
      October 9, 2017, 1:48 pm

      just

      Here’s my source:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

      In World War 2, around 7 million Germans were killed,
      but only 419,000 Americans were killed.
      Does that mean that the Germans were the good guys & the Americans were the bad guys?

      • Mooser
        October 9, 2017, 2:52 pm

        “In World War 2, around 7 million Germans were killed,
        but only 419,000 Americans were killed.”

        Who is included in that “around 7 million”? A couple million Jews from Germany?

      • amigo
        October 9, 2017, 3:05 pm

        “From 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed 27 Israeli civilians, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians[5] and injured more than 1900 people,[citation needed] ”

        Jacko , Citation needed means “This claim needs references to reliable sources “.Check your link.

        To quote your new found friend—nice try but No dice–or words to that effect.

        “In World War 2, around 7 million Germans were killed,
        but only 419,000 Americans were killed.
        Does that mean that the Germans were the good guys & the Americans were the bad guys” jacko.

        Actually , the Russians / French/British/ et al were the good guys.

        The Germans were the bad guys because they attacked and occupied other nations and murdered their citizens.

        Get the point jacko.

      • Keith
        October 9, 2017, 6:34 pm

        JACK GREEN- “Does that mean that the Germans were the good guys & the Americans were the bad guys?”

        No, it means that the Soviets did the bulk of the fighting and dying, losing well over 20 million people.

      • Jack Green
        October 9, 2017, 10:04 pm

        Mooser

        There were only around half a million Jews in Germany before the Holocaust.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 10, 2017, 3:23 pm

        Amigo:

        “Actually , the Russians / French/British/ et al were the good guys.

        The Germans were the bad guys because they attacked and occupied other nations and murdered their citizens..”

        Just a little note: The Germans were the bad guys, but I would not call the Russians that good either.. They anyway attacked and occupied part of Finland and left more than 400 000 Finns without home..

      • amigo
        October 10, 2017, 3:53 pm

        “Just a little note: The Germans were the bad guys, but I would not call the Russians that good either.. They anyway attacked and occupied part of Finland and left more than 400 000 Finns without home..”KOF

        Indeed Kaisa , but I was placing it in the context of jackos breakdown.Wouldn,t want befuddle him any further than he already is.

        Btw, we Irish would have not viewed the British as good guy,s for many reasons.but that is mostly over now.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        October 10, 2017, 5:19 pm

        Amigo:

        “Btw, we Irish would have not viewed the British as good guy,s for many reasons..”

        I know. I have a dear Irish friend with whom we have shared our experiences.

  14. Ossinev
    October 9, 2017, 5:17 pm

    @Amigo
    “Jacko , we await with bated breath for your reply.Perhaps you are awaiting a reply from Hasbara central.They are usually much quicker with their response”.

    I think he/they may be in a state of Ziodizziness on this one.

    Well Mr.Green – ball still on your side of the court . Come on favor us with a stab at it at least.

    • Jack Green
      October 9, 2017, 10:07 pm

      amigo
      Keith

      My point was that the number of casualties doesn’t tell you who was good & who was bad.

  15. amigo
    October 9, 2017, 9:04 pm

    As we all seem to be focusing on Jewish despair–how about we focus on what is real time despair of the Palestinian people.I am sure neither part of the show they have been watching for 7 decades has any happy moments for them albeit , they are all memorable.

Leave a Reply