‘Struggle for basic rights within binational state has begun and we will win’ –Shulman in ‘NYRB’

US Politics
on 65 Comments

The new issue of the New York Review of Books contains an important essay by David Shulman reviewing the late Shimon Peres’s autobiography. Shulman is an honest scholar who participates in Israeli-Palestinian nonviolent actions in the West Bank; and there is nothing coy about his treatment of Labor Zionist icons:

I once heard Leah Rabin, Yitzhak Rabin’s widow, insist in a public lecture that her late husband never even once changed his mind about anything, as if that were a great human virtue. Inhabiting a mythic cosmos tends to reduce reality to a manageable set of indubitable equations. It was within just such a mental world that Peres lent his weight, as minister of defense in Rabin’s government, to the creation of some of the first Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Shulman then describes Peres going out in 1975 to stop “messianic-mystical” settlers in Kedumim in the northern west bank– and letting them stay in the end.

The importance of this piece is that Shulman lays out, without sentiment, the painful spiritual-historical choice that conscious Jewish Israelis face today. On the one hand is the old “heroic myth” that the Israeli mainstream likes to tell itself: “a weak and persecuted nation (if that is what we are) rose from the ashes to achieve freedom…” On the other hand, he says, there is the “awareness of our share in the endless violence and wickedness, including the subjugation of another people, and of what needs to be done in order to achieve even a semblance of normalcy and decency in the real world.”

This is a generational opposition, Shulman writes. Older people like himself still cling to real sympathy for Peres’s “quixotic travails.” Younger people believe that the “tremendous violence inflicted on the Palestinians by the state-in-the-making was and has remained intrinsic to the entire Zionist enterprise.” These people have come to believe that the “raison d’etre” of Israel’s “whole story” is a principle of mutual responsibility of Palestinians and Jews.

In those words, Shulman captures the spirit that animates this site: the sense that the only real Jewish destiny today is one that grapples foremost with the Palestinian experience. There is no other way for Jews to participate in history– the human story we all are telling — than on those terms.

Shulman’s piece ends with a wallop. For 25 years, he says, Palestinians have dreamed of having a state of their own. Now that number is down to 43 percent. The choice is plain.

“[A]lready one can hear the beginning notes of a chorus that may eventually drown out most other voices in the territories. If there is to be no peace between the two states west of the Jordan River, then, as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said in his speech at the UN in September, “Neither you [the peoples of the world], nor we, will have any other choice but to continue the struggle and demand full, equal rights for all inhabitants of historic Palestine.” Indeed, the struggle for basic rights within a single binational state has already begun. Israeli activists, having despaired of a solution based on radical separation, will certainly join in. It will look something like the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa or the American civil rights movement, and sooner or later, at whatever cost, we will win.

This piece is so important because the New York Review of Books is our preeminent intellectual journal in the States, and it is putting down its marker (under its new editor Ian Buruma) on what it means to be a progressive. The struggle for basic rights has begun, we will win. We must give up the ethnocentric hero myths of the Zionist past and imagine a future that involves all peoples as equal citizens. This is the greatest challenge for American Jews in our time, to try to facilitate this incredible passage with the least bloodshed. Though let me remind you of Shulman’s penultimate phrase, “at whatever cost.” No one can have any illusion that this will be easy.

 

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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65 Responses

  1. Citizen
    November 20, 2017, 12:27 pm

    In consideration of the fact Israel is enabled by the sole superpower, by huge military aid & at least 41 US UN SC vetos against those seeking Israel’s accountability under the international law that alone justifies the huge bloodshed of WW2, as a Gentile American, I say this is the greatest challenge for all Americans, not merely 2% of its population.

  2. amigo
    November 20, 2017, 12:46 pm

    I invite all the zionist apologists that spend their time on MW tirelessly working for the Greater Israel , to share with us , their plan for the Non Jewish “Citizens” who will still be in their midst after the so called Greater Israel has been realised.

    So let,s hear from you .We are all ears/eyes.

    Jackdaw.
    Mayhem.
    Bont Eastlake.
    Jack Green.
    Jeffy Boy.
    Yonah Fredman.
    Jon S.
    Catalan.

    Sorry if I left anyone out , but you know who you are.

    • yonah fredman
      November 20, 2017, 3:59 pm

      amigo, correct your invitation. Do not refer to Jeff as Jeffy Boy and then pretend to be a gentleman. Play your rhetorical games by yourself and with yourself if you are incapable of minimum etiquette.

      • amigo
        November 20, 2017, 4:34 pm

        ” Play your rhetorical games by yourself and with yourself if you are incapable of minimum etiquette”YF

        Like you , when you are sharing White Bread and mayo with your neighbours and then run home to chew on rye bread and chicken.

        Some etiquette .

        “imagine, sitting and eating white bread and mayonnaise with your neighbors, but then going home and chowing down on some pastrami on rye, mit a pickle and chicken soup, when the shades are down and nobody knows”YF

        http://mondoweiss.net/2017/07/israeli-solomon-schechter/

        Btw , a Gentleman would not support the theft of someone else,s land or find excuses for the oppression of others.Can you answer the question posed Yonah.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2017, 4:47 pm

        ” Do not refer to Jeff as Jeffy Boy and then pretend to be a gentleman.”

        Really? And how should he refer to “The Reverend Rabbi Dr. Prof. His Honour Sir Jeff B, PHD DVD ADD GCMG”? His full title takes so long to write.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2017, 4:51 pm

        “Play your rhetorical games by yourself and with yourself if you are incapable of minimum etiquette.”

        You gonna ban him for ‘ungentlemanly commenting’, “yonah”?

      • yonah fredman
        November 20, 2017, 10:02 pm

        amigo, here is your question: “Share with us , your plan for the Non Jewish “Citizens” who will still be in your midst after the so called Greater Israel has been realised.”
        My plan which is not about to be implemented is the 2 state solution as envisioned by the Geneva Initiative. The Greater Israel concept that you are referring to will not include citizenship for all nonJews, but if Israel annexes all the west bank i believe this should include citizenship for all those who live in the west bank.

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2017, 10:38 pm

        “My plan which is not about to be implemented is the 2 state solution as envisioned by the Geneva Initiative”

        “Not about to be implemented”? What happened? I thought you were only a few signatures and rubber-stamps away initiating the Geneva Initiative? Did you miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 1:18 pm

        “My plan which is not about to be implemented is the 2 state solution as envisioned by the Geneva Initiative”

        Yeah. For lack of Palestinian support, no doubt.

    • jon s
      November 21, 2017, 4:09 pm

      amigo,
      I don’t know why you refer to me as working for “greater Israel”. If you’ve read my comments and understood them you should know that I actively oppose the occupation and the settlements and therefore I oppose any notion of “Greater Israel”.
      As to non-Jewish citizens, of course all citizens should enjoy equal rights. A basic democratic principle.
      Also, amigo, your McCarthyite list-making , lumping together other commenters who may have little in common, is distasteful.

      • amigo
        November 21, 2017, 4:59 pm

        ” If you’ve read my comments and understood them you should know that I actively oppose the occupation and the settlements and therefore I oppose any notion of a greater Israel.Jon S

        Sure Jon S, which is why you are giving up your illegal squat in Beersheba –which is occupied Palestine, as it is outside Israel,s self declared borders of 1948.

        Your no different than those I listed , you just hide behind a false claim of being a peacenik.Some of the others are at least up front about their intentions.

        As to my list being Mc Carthyite , well I hope that is all I ever get accused of ,Better than being an apologist for an Apartheid and Colonialist criminal regime.Now that is truly distasteful.

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 12:58 pm

        “Sure Jon S, which is why you are giving up your illegal squat in Beersheba…”

        Dear old Beersheba

      • jon s
        November 22, 2017, 3:23 pm

        amigo, I’m a “peacenik”, as you put it because I’ve been active in groups that strive for Israeli-Palestinian peace and oppose the occupation and the settlements. We need to seek a better future for both Palestinians and Israelis.

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 5:28 pm

        “amigo, I’m a “peacenik”, as you put it because I’ve been active in…”

        …avoiding any active IDF duty. Occupation service is for sabras. And they better like it!

      • amigo
        November 22, 2017, 7:43 pm

        “Avoiding active service in the IDF.” mooser

        Mooser , Jon S prepares his charges for life in the IDF. He teaches them how to win hearts and minds in “The Territories”. He teaches them the value of treating the enemy with respect .His specialty is to show them how to make Palestinians feel at ease about having their home invaded and occupied by someone from some far off part of the world.He gained valuable experience in this endeavour , on the ground in Beersheba. He has lived there for years and has never had a complaint from the people who came , or should I say went , before him.He never even bothered to change the locks. , to which the previous owners still have the keys.

      • jon s
        November 23, 2017, 3:59 pm

        amigo,
        I’m not going to apologize for being a leftist “peacenik”, for supporting values like democracy peace and social justice. Hopefully I’m doing my modest part in education on behalf of those values.
        It looks to me like you’re misinformed about the reality in Israel. Also about me, personally . (As if your “information” comes from commenter “Mooser”s nonsense and lies).

        Somewhat off-topic here: I recall that you were interested in and commented on the horrible lynching of the Eritrean man, Haftom Zarhoun, in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist attack here in Beer Sheva in October 2015. So here’s an update on the case: The most important evidence in the case against the four suspects being prosecuted is the videotape from the surveillance camera. The attorneys for the accused have argued that the tape should not be admitted as evidence because of various technicalities: the police officer who took it supposedly wasn’t authorised to do so, no proper”chain of evidence ” was maintained and so forth. Last week it was reported that the judge was indeed not going to admit the tape (“fruit of the poisoned tree” ). That could have led to the charges being dropped. This week the judge criticized the police for screwing up but decided to admit the tape itself, especially since the suspects are not disputing the fact that they are the men seen on the tape. So now the trial can proceed with the tape in evidence.

      • Annie Robbins
        November 23, 2017, 5:51 pm

        what difference does it make jon? at the most they will get a slap on the wrist.

      • amigo
        November 23, 2017, 7:55 pm

        Jon S , if you wish to convince me you practice left wing politics on the I/P issue , you might start by quibbling with the right wing ( zionist apologists )who use this site to post false claims and lies on a daily basis.You know who they are.

        I checked your archives –the last 100 posts and only three times did you address the pro Israel ranks.Twice to Yonah Fredman and one other which has slipped my mind.On two occasions you agreed with Yonah on some minor points and the other you corrected the poster on a date concerning the visit of some Jewish celeb to Israel.

        Conversely , when responding to the pro Palestinian side , you adopt a contentious approach and often vociferously justify Israel,s actions , that, when you are not busy going on about HAMAS.

        As to me not knowing Israel –I know that Beersheba is in occupied territory as it is outside Israel,s self declared borders of 1948 and none of the Palestinians were asked if they wanted to give up the land you are squatting on.

        And no , I am not getting my views from Mooser.

        As to the 4 murderers who killed the Eritrean , they will most likely walk free and possibly become heroes just like Azaria .After all , it would appear that Black lives are only worth 5000 dollars in Israel.

        Ask the 40,000 refugees who have been contracted out to Rawanda for 5 k each.

        Personally , I cannot figure out how you can live in such a nation . What an environment to raise kids in. No matter how much you try to teach them , they will still be exposed to zionist racism and hatred , in school or at the mall or soccer games.

        Btw , supporting the 2SS is the easy way out as it is never going to happen.It is the same as betting on a 2 horse race in which one has a broken leg.So convenient , don,t you think.

      • Mooser
        November 24, 2017, 1:03 pm

        . “Hopefully I’m doing my modest part in education on behalf of those values.” “Jon s”

        Oh yes “jon s” you try to get the maximum value out of everything.

        jon s October 18, 2015 at 4:59 pm
        Terrorist attack in Beersheva this evening.
        My family and I are ok, thank God. I also asked all the kids in my class to check in and they all reported that they’re ok, although some sound shaken.

      • Mooser
        November 24, 2017, 1:15 pm

        “(As if your “information” comes from commenter “Mooser”s nonsense and lies).”

        Yeah, here’s a selection

      • jon s
        November 26, 2017, 3:48 pm

        amigo,
        On “quibbling with the right wing” , I’ve tried doing that by commenting on a right-wing blog (Hebrew). Guess what? It looks like they’ve freakin banned me.
        On this blog I post my opinions and observations when I think that I have something to contribute.

        I use the terms “occupied territory” and “settlements” in the conventional, accepted sense, in the context of the I/P issue. Of course , you can invent your own definitions, but then the discussion becomes meaningless.

        Regarding the 4 suspects in the lynching , they are not being charged with murder.

        I’m relieved to know that you don’t get your views from “Mooser”.

        I live here because this is my home, this is my people’s homeland. In general it’s a good place to live and to raise kids, without underestimating the problems, the blemishes and the challenges.. You’re welcome to visit.

      • amigo
        November 26, 2017, 6:14 pm

        “On “quibbling with the right wing” , I’ve tried doing that by commenting on a right-wing blog (Hebrew). Guess what? It looks like they’ve freakin banned me.” Jon S

        Let me see, you suggested that Israel carries out minor indiscretions.

        Bang , your banned –get lost self hating Jew.

        But , but , I only suggested !!.

        Outa here , go post on MW , if you want to delegitimize the most moral Army.

        At the risk of being accused of getting my ideas from Mooser , that is why you come to MW. So while you are here , you have the opportunity to show us that you are not the same as the right wing zio gang , ie Jack Green who claims Israel has a right to change it,s borders at will.Let,s see you quibble with him.

        “On this blog I post my opinions and observations when I think that I have something to contribute”Jon S

        Like—
        It should be noted that the Arab states ,at the time, rejected resolution 194.

        Or —
        In this case it looks like the bds campaign has backfired:

        Or—
        The Jews of Iraq were basically expelled by the Iraq government.

        Each comment is just more self serving zionist mindset.

        “Of course , you can invent your own definitions, but then the discussion becomes meaningless” Jon S

        I get it .The conversation is only meaningful if we use your definitions as a starting point.Very convenient.

        “Regarding the 4 suspects in the lynching , they are not being charged with murder.”Jon S

        They would not have been charged at all , had they not been caught on camera–albeit used by a policeman , “Not Authorised to operate it” FFS –only in Israel.Do they have a special div that are charged with
        video taping crimes committed against Palestinians or Infiltrators.

        “You’re welcome to visit.”JonS

        Come and meet me.I will be in one of those special rooms they reserve for special guests to whom they give an unforgettable welcome.

        Btw , there is no need for you to apologise for being left wing.

        Your not.

      • gamal
        November 26, 2017, 6:51 pm

        “It looks like they’ve freakin banned me”

        how sad anti-semitism everywhere…

      • Mooser
        November 26, 2017, 11:37 pm

        “At the risk of being accused of getting my ideas from Mooser , that is why you come to MW.”

        “amigo”, please, don’t mind “Jon s”. He is obsessed with me, stalks me through the comment section, and seems to be very jealous if I talk to anybody else. But that’s my problem, don’t let him make it yours.
        I can’t figure it out. It’s certainly not like I encourage him, or anything.

      • Mooser
        November 27, 2017, 12:40 pm

        “On “quibbling with the right wing” , I’ve tried doing that by commenting on a right-wing blog (Hebrew). Guess what? It looks like they’ve freakin banned me” “jon s”

        “Jon s” , since you seemed so upset about the “freakin” ban, I personally checked with “a right-wing blog (Hebrew)” and they said one of your comments may not have appeared due to a technical glitch, but you are not banned, and always welcome back.

      • jon s
        November 27, 2017, 4:46 pm

        Amigo,
        I stand by all those comments of mine . You can call them “self serving Zionist…”I call them “the truth”. I don’t know why it’s so important for you that I should argue with the right-wingers here. I’ll do so if I feel that I have something to contribute to the discussion. In any case I think that the intelligent readers of mw can see the differing points of view.

        I made the point that I’m using the conventional ,accepted, terminology regarding the occupied territories and the settlements. Not my definitions.

        Regarding the trial of the lynching suspects, I see there’s a misunderstanding. When I wrote that the police officer “took it” it wasn’t in the sense of having been the cameraman. We’re talking about a surveillance camera , of the kind that are located in public areas all over the world. The officer who took the tape from the bus station ,as part of the investigation, was not authorized to do so, according to the defense lawyers. The suspects are not being charged with murder because the autopsy showed that the cause of Mr Zarhoum’s death was the gunshot wounds, not the beating. They are charged with assault.

        It seems to me that a person who advocates democracy, peace and social justice is on the Left.

      • amigo
        November 27, 2017, 5:50 pm

        “I don’t know why it’s so important for you that I should argue with the right-wingers here. I’ll do so if I feel that I have something to contribute to the discussion.”Jon S

        Well , your claim of supporting justice would ring less hollow if you took Jack Green to task for stating Israel has a right to change it,s borders when and however it chooses.Why is that so difficult.Do you agree with him.You might also ask why he will not recognise the Nakba , given that I have asked him 7 or 8 times.Do you ?.

        “The suspects are not being charged with murder because the autopsy showed that the cause of Mr Zarhoum’s death was the gunshot wounds, not the beating.” Jon S

        So was the person who shot him charged and tried and convicted.I bet not.Those four will also be let off.It would be unthinkable in Israel to lock up four Jews for beating up a mere invader.

        “I stand by all those comments of mine . You can call them “self serving Zionist…”I call them “the truth”.Jon S

        Of course you stand by them but that was not the point.

        The point was that almost excluvisely , your statements are pro Israel.That,s unusual for some one who claims to be for justice and equality.

        Put the shovel down Jon , the tunnel is going to fall in on you.

      • Mooser
        November 28, 2017, 1:32 am

        .” In any case I think that the intelligent readers of mw can see the differing points of view.” “Jon s”

        I think “Jon s” is trying to tell us that the “intelligent readers of mw” never comment.

        And yes, “Jon s” your “point of view” is perfectly obvious. You’re peering out from a settlement.

  3. pabelmont
    November 20, 2017, 2:18 pm

    Calling for equal rights for all inhabitants of Palestine ( a/k/a Greater Israel) is a sad failure to speak adequately — what’s needed is equal rights for all people who should be inhabitants of this place. This includes I dare say all Israeli-Jews presently there and all Palestinians presently there , but should also include all the Palestinian refugees and exiles and perhaps also all former Israeli-Jews now living elsewhere but desiring to return to I/P.

    In any case, living equally cannot happen if there is a law of return for Jews (who never lived there) but not for Palestinians.

    • mcohen..
      November 20, 2017, 3:08 pm

      Pablemont….says law of return

      I attended a lecture some time ago on water resources in israel and the picture was bleak.there is no way that israel can support 15 million people and upwards.just not going to happen.
      Even if israel wanted to expand into the west bank and increase the settler population it would face severe water shortages .major political decisions are based on facts on the ground

      • Mooser
        November 20, 2017, 4:56 pm

        ” a lecture some time ago on water resources in israel and the picture was bleak”

        Nonsense. All they gotta do is smite a stone with the right stick.

      • amigo
        November 20, 2017, 7:16 pm

        “Even if israel wanted to expand into the west bank and increase the settler population it would face severe water shortages .major political decisions are based on facts on the ground”mcohen

        Better have a chat with this guy !!!.

        “MEMO 15 Nov — An Israeli minister said yesterday that the state must start planning for a million settlers in the West Bank, according to a report in the Jerusalem Post. This will happen – it is only a question of when,” Jerusalem Affairs Minister Ze’ev Elkin said, “adding that it could be anywhere between the next 10 to 20 years, depending on the pace of construction.”

        http://mondoweiss.net/2017/11/israeli-minister-settlers/

        He seems to think it is a done deal .You are right though , it is a political decision but it is based on changing the facts on the ground and is not dependent on same.

        As to having a water problem , that is solved by stealing more from the non Jewish population.

        Zionism is such a project to be proud of , eh.

  4. yonah fredman
    November 20, 2017, 4:10 pm

    There are two organizations that are widely recognized as representing the cause of the Palestinians: PLO, aka Fatah, and Hamas. Neither has reached the point of ceasing to demand that the next step is two states . This does not eliminate the logic or the dynamic or the strategy of one state with voting rights for all present, but neither can this fact of the stated position of these 2 groups (at this juncture) be denied.

    As far as the rights of those who fled or were chased away, one might imagine that first comes suffrage for those present, whose votes would then change the policy of the polity towards those who are located elsewhere.

    • amigo
      November 20, 2017, 4:51 pm

      “Neither has reached the point of ceasing to demand that the next step is two states . This does not eliminate the logic or the dynamic or the strategy of one state with voting rights for all present, but neither can this fact of the stated position of these 2 groups (at this juncture) be denied.” YF

      Perhaps you might care to remind us of which Israeli (Jewish ) leaders have reached the point of recognising either the 2 states or a one state solution .Last time I looked , almost every one of them stated there will never be a Palestinian state.

      You can choose to swallow their lies but we all know their actions belie their words.

    • Mooser
      November 20, 2017, 5:00 pm

      “As far as the rights of those who fled or were chased away, one might imagine that first comes suffrage for those present, whose votes would then change the policy of the polity towards those who are located elsewhere.”

      And there goes the Jewish Majority in Palestine. It’s good that Jewish majority isn’t a crucial thing for Zionism or Zionists, so they should be glad to let it go.

  5. Ossinev
    November 20, 2017, 5:27 pm

    @Yonah Fredman

    “Neither has reached the point of ceasing to demand that the next step is two states ” .
    Grateful for a quick update. I am assuming that you are still an advocate for the 2SS and still against the 1SS (be it the Apartheid version or the full citizenship and equal rights for all version).
    In view of the fact that the West Bank is currently still being gobbled up by settlements etc etc and East Jerusalem is still being demographically re – engineered can you describe in basic detail your supposed second state for the Palestinians please . Oh and please include your views on the basic sovereignty rights for this second state you know the kind of stuff that a state is supposed to have – and the ones so intrinsic to the Zionist dream of Jewish state.

    • yonah fredman
      November 20, 2017, 10:17 pm

      ossinev- if i were trying to predict the future for Israel/palestine, there will be no 2 state solution on the horizon. i pointed out that the dynamics proposed in the post here have to contend with the current position of Fatah and Hamas. if you feel that pointing out the contradictions in my position will make things easier for the Palestinians (in regards to this contradiction or in any other way), i think you’re off base.

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 12:40 pm

        ” if i were trying to predict the future”

        “yonah”, sweetheart, you can’t even predict the present. And your predictions about the past are always way off, too.

  6. JosephA
    November 20, 2017, 6:23 pm

    Thank you for the thoughtful piece. There are so many factors at play here: the mixing of religion and nationalism (very dangerous), zionism/racism, settler-colonialism, imperialism, war crimes, international law, human rights (or lack thereof) and let’s not forget the elephant in the room: the military-industrial complex.

  7. Nathan
    November 20, 2017, 8:19 pm

    I’m quite surprised that no one wishes to protest the use of the term “a single binational state”. It should be noted that it is self-evident that a binational state is a state that is set up for two national groups. In case it’s not entirely self-evident, the two nations are (1) the Jews and (2) the Palestinians.

    In the article, we are told that “Shulman captures the spirit that animates this site”. I’m surprised that the spirit of this website includes a recognition of the nationhood of the Jews. The anti-Israel crowd has always insisted that the Jews are not a nation.

    However, now that we are informed that “Shulman captures the spirit that animates this site”, one can now assume that his vision of a binational state is an acceptable concept at Mondoweiss. It should be noted that it makes no difference if you support a separate Jewish nation-state or if you support a binational state in which the Jews are one of the two national communities therein. In both cases, the Jews are a nation entitled to some form of statehood. That is the essence of the Zionist ideology.

    • RoHa
      November 20, 2017, 9:10 pm

      I’m pretty sure that in ancient times (before The Great Cock-Up That Lost Some Of The Archives) I did protest the term. I do know that I have made these comments:

      http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/interview-suicide-bomber/#comment-777949

      http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/documents-borders-palestine/#comment-718142

      http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/interview-suicide-bomber/#comment-777949

      and, most imporantly, this one,

      http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/documents-borders-palestine/#comment-718326

      “In both cases, the Jews are a nation entitled to some form of statehood.”

      But nations are not entitled to statehood.

      • Nathan
        November 21, 2017, 7:52 am

        RoHa – Yes, you are absolutely right that three years ago you protested the term “binational nation”. Sorry that I didn’t check that out before writing my comment.

        Your final note that “nations are not entitled to statehood” is quite puzzling. One of the outstanding phenomena of modern political science is the establishment of nation-states. A nation-state is a state that was founded by (and for) a particular nation (an ethnic community). It’s called the “right of self-determination”. There are national groups that didn’t succeed in founding their own state (Catalonia is a recent example), and there are national groups that are not interested in having their own state (the Frisians, for example). However, many national groups have insisted that it is their right to independent statehood (Poles, Lithuanians and more recently the Kurds). The Palestinians are also demanding the right of self-determination (i.e. a nation that is entitled to statehood). It’s surprising to read a comment in this website that rejects the Palestinian demand to have their own state.

      • Bont Eastlake
        November 21, 2017, 8:46 am

        Nathan

        Nation states are opportunistic political development designed to facilitate maximum growth of capitalist infrastructure and operations. The measurable benefit of nation states are not silly ideas like self determination but the absolute power of the capitalist class over society, and in turn over nature.

        Ethnic groups do not have the right of self determination in nation states. In fact members of any ethnic group are subject to annoying and possibly harsh and inhumane laws just for existing in the state. The state hold ultimate power over its citizens, and the capitalists direct the running of the state.

      • RoHa
        November 21, 2017, 5:43 pm

        That was information, not criticism. Since you have not been on MW very long, I don’t expect you to remember every comment that has been made (Mooser can), and trekking through all the archives would take longer than a couple of games of chess.

        But if you look through my archives, you will see that I have consistently argued that, if “self-determination” makes any sense at all, it can only be the right of all the legitimate residents of a territory. It is not a right of “nations”/ethnic group/religious groups/ Justin Bieber fans/stamp collectors/left-handed Latvian lesbian spokeshavers’ apprentices.

        You will see that I have added, though with little discussion, that it is not an absolute right.

        You will see that I have pointed out that “nation” is an ambiguous term, that there are at least three concepts of “nation”, and that principles which apply to one concept do not apply to the others. I have shown that the Finns are not the same sort of nation as the Jews, who barely count as any sort of nation at all, so that even if nations like the Finns had a right to sd (and they don’t) the Jews still would not qualify.

        And you will see that I have never said the the Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own.

        As to your historical references, the fact that some “national” groups have established a state, and that other want to, does not show that national groups are entitled to do so, any more than the fact that I have eaten my neighbour’s doughnut shows that people are entitled to eat their neighbours doughnuts.

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 1:10 pm

        “But if you look through my archives, you will see that I have consistently argued that, if “self-determination” makes any sense at all, it can only be the right of all the legitimate residents of a territory.” “RoHa”

        Might we say that ‘legitimate residence’ is a prerequisite of ‘self-determination’?
        Usually, in determining legitimate residence, the claims of people who were, you know, actually living there, trump those of (ROTFLMSJAO) “DNA evidence”.

        (And no, you don’t lose your legitimate residence when you are chased out by the Zionists, either)

    • JohnSmith
      November 20, 2017, 10:02 pm

      What a stupid rhetorical game, perfect for cavilling and carping. The reference to “a single binational state” is obviously more akin in meaning to “a single biracial state,” and not to any existence of a magically pure and superior Jewish master race who deserve to rule as overlords on any particular plot of land, which is “the essence of Zionist ideology.” You should go on Fox News. They always need more haters. People here want universal human rights–in Israel’s case, a “binational state.” You don’t.

      • Nathan
        November 21, 2017, 7:20 am

        JohnSmith – You’d be surprised to learn that the Arab side of the conflict does not agree to a binational state. For the Arabs, the “rhetorical game”, as you call it, is VERY important. They understand that “binational” means “two nations”. Furthermore, they understand that “two nations” can only be understood as including the Jews as one of those two nations in Palestine. And, finally, once you admit that the Jews are a nation, you have admitted that they have a geographic point of reference (i.e. a homeland), and you have therefore accepted the legitimacy of Zionism (and the traditional Jewish narrative of exile and return). So, your call for “universal human rights” in the form of a binational state is not universal at all. Throughout the history of the conflict, the Palestinians have always rejected binationalism, so it is not their solution to the crisis.

        Actually, the quote from Mr Abbas’ speech at the UN is an expression of a “solution” that the Palestinians would accept: “…. full equal rights for all inhabitants of historic Palestine.” The inhabitants of historic Palestine (in the world of Mr Abbas) exclude the vast majority of the Jews in the country whom he regards as foreigners. The understanding of David Shulman that this is about “basic rights in a binational state” is quite mistaken. Mr Shulman’s “binational state” recognizes the Jewish nation in Palestine, whereas Mr Abbas has something else in mind.

      • Sibiriak
        November 26, 2017, 5:29 pm

        Nathan: …once you admit that the Jews are a nation,

        [non sequitur:] you have admitted that they have a geographic point of reference (i.e. a homeland)

        [non sequitur:] and you have therefore accepted the legitimacy of Zionism
        —————————————

        1) Even if we assume Jews are a people* or “nation”, it does not follow that they must have a single “geographic point of reference.” When modern Jewish nationalism arose, Jews were a widely-dispersed people without a contemporary national homeland. Whether or not they had an ancient homeland (real or imaginary) is irrelevant. The right of self-determination of peoples requires at a minimum that a people be the majority population in a specific territory at or near the time they press a claim for political self-determination.

        (*I prefer the term “people” because modern international law uses the term “peoples,” not “nations” in defining the right of self-determination.)

        2)Even if we assume Jews are a people, it does not follow that the creation of a Jewish state was desirable, necessary or legitimate. There is no reason a people cannot exist and thrive dispersed amongst multiple states. Political sovereignty is only one of various possible forms of self-determination.

        [Also: Jewish nationalism didn’t necessarily imply creating a state in Palestine. Leo Pinsker (author of Autoemanzipation), for example, wrote that “[Jews] should ‘above all not dream of restoring ancient Judaea. … The goal of our present endeavours must be not the “Holy Land” but a land of our own.’ […]he mentioned a territory in North America or a sovereign pashalik in Asiatic Turkey as alternative possibilities.”(Walter Laqueur, A History of Zionism ). And the Jewish nationalists known as “territorialists” favoured a Jewish national revival outside Palestine, e.g. in Uganda. (That idea was rejected in 1905.) “ The Jewish Territorial Organisation (JTO) was founded in London under the leadership of Israel Zangwill […]. They maintained that the vital interests of the Jewish people were not in Palestine: ‘We do not attach any real value to our supposed “historical rights” to that country.’ Nor did they acknowledge any organic connection between Zionism and Palestine. JTO organised an expedition to Angola and investigated the possibility of settlement in Tripolitania, Texas, Mexico, Australia and Canada.”(Walter Laqueur, A History of Zionism.)]

        3) Even if were desirable for Jews to have a state of their own, political control over territory in Palestine could only be obtained by denying Palestinians their own right of self-determination. This ugly fact was explicitly recognized at the time. The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine’s report of September 1947 , in appraising the Arab case against partition, concluded:

        With regard to the principle of self-determination, although international recognition was extended to this principle at the end of the First World War and it was adhered to with regard to the other Arab territories, at the time of the creation of the “A” Mandates, it was not applied to Palestine, obviously because of the intention to make possible the creation of the Jewish National Home there.

        Actually, it may well be said that the Jewish National Home and the sui generis Mandate for Palestine run counter to that principle. [emphasis added]

        https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

        British diplomatAnthony Nutting (1920-1999):

        […]the British Government never intended to allow the Arab majority any voice in shaping the future of their own country. ‘The weak point of our position’, Balfour wrote to Lloyd George in February 1919, ‘is of course that in the case of Palestine we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination’.[ 14] If the existing population were consulted, he added, they would ‘unquestionably’ return an anti-Zionist verdict. And in reply to Curzon, Balfour stated quite categorically that ‘in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country [emphasis added]

        “Balfour and Palestine, a legacy of deceit”
        http://www.balfourproject.org/balfour-and-palestine/

        In sum, if Jews were a people, they were nevertheless widely-dispersed and lacked a contemporary homeland. They had no territory for a state. They could only obtain territory in Palestine by denying Palestinians their rights. If the Palestinians had been able to democratically determine their political future, they would have rejected massive Zionist immigration into Palestine, rejected Zionist land acquisition and dispossession of peasants and workers, rejected the formation of a Zionist proto-state under the British, and rejected the creation of Zionist Israel. All that had to be imposed by force.

        Zionism required –and continues to require– the political repression and/or expulsion of the Palestinians. That is its fatal moral flaw, not the fact that it conceives of Jews as a people.

    • Mooser
      November 20, 2017, 10:09 pm

      ” In both cases, the Jews are a nation entitled to some form of statehood. That is the essence of the Zionist ideology.

      “Entitled”? Yeah, that and $3.60 will buy you a latte at any Starbucks.

      Saying “Jews are nation entitled to some form of statehood” is something Western Zionists say to poor Eastern European Jews who don’t know any better. Playing on their troubles, and taking advantage of their ignorance. It’s shameful.

      Sure, “Nathan”, there’s some big United Nations Entitling Office which assigns people the countries their DNA deserve. Tell me another one.

      And besides, why should I, a Jew, go to Israel to be bossed around by Orthodox Jews, when I can stay in the US and be bossed around by everybody? I like diversity.

    • Mooser
      November 20, 2017, 10:15 pm

      “I’m quite surprised that no one wishes to protest the use of the term “a single binational state”. “

      Why bother? There’s no need. Isn’t it obvious that no matter what solutions are offered, the Zionists will screw it up? Why bother making a fuss about what Israel cannot do?

    • eljay
      November 21, 2017, 7:19 am

      || Nathan: … the Jews are a nation entitled to some form of statehood. That is the essence of the Zionist ideology. ||

      The essence of Zionism is Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. Zionism is an unjust and immoral ideology.

      • jon s
        November 21, 2017, 4:22 pm

        Nathan has a good point. It looks like Mr Shulman -and Phil- uses the term “binational state ” as if it’s synonymous with “one state”.
        Phil , do you know of any Palestinians who support the concept of a binational state? Such support would be a significant development.

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 12:50 pm

        “Phil , do you know of any Palestinians who support the concept of a binational state? Such support would be a significant development.”

        Well lookit this, already wouldja? “Jon s” is suddenly concerned with what Palestinians “support a concept of”? That never seemed to bother Israelis before.

        I’ll tell you what, “Jon s”, if those Palestinians (who never did know what was best for themselves) don’t want a “bi-national state” in which they have full rights, well, you Israelis just go ahead and impose it on them!

      • echinococcus
        November 23, 2017, 1:10 am

        Mooser,

        Of course the Zionists will end up imposing a “binational state”, whatever that is, by the force of arms. If they can’t manage to complete their genocide, that is. Enter the “Liberal” invaders and the Shulmans and such: if Palestinians are allowed to remain physically alive, out go the Libermans and Yahoos and the liberals take care of anchoring the invasion by making it, uh, ehm, consensual.

        It’s their only chance of remaining in Palestine long term, just like a tick. I remember having a skin abscess fully two years after I thought I had pulled out a tick in the forest: the head was still inside my skin, at the center of the abscess.

  8. echinococcus
    November 21, 2017, 2:17 am

    Oh yeah? And who the hell gave you the right to insert your fake “nation” into other people’s place to make it ‘binational”? Go find some uninhabited land for your imagined “nation”. See if the nation of penguins on the South Pole will agree to go “binational” with you guys, will you?

    “Shulman is an honest scholar” says Weiss. Where is honesty when you can’t start by questioning the right of violent invaders to create nations on other people’s land?

    Continues with “who participates in Israeli-Palestinian nonviolent actions in the West Bank”… well the invasion by his own team, which he is campaigning to keep invading in a “binational” form, is not nonviolent.

  9. Ossinev
    November 21, 2017, 1:26 pm

    @Nathan
    “including the Jews as one of those two nations in Palestine”

    I suppose a lifetime of self ,educational institute and synagoge brainwashing will lead in the majority of the individuals affected to a state of psychotic fixation which is virtually impossible to undo. Still those of us with reasonably unpolluted intellects must keep trying as in every little bit helps to fight the brutality which Judaism ( in its Zionist form) continues to inlfict on innocent Palestinian victims through the empowerment of its fanaticism.

    I say Judaism so you may already have a clue as to where I am heading:
    Judaism is a religion not a “nation”
    Christianity is a religion not a”nation”
    Islam is a religion not a “nation”
    Buddhism is a religion not a “nation”
    Hinduism is a religion not a “nation”
    The list goes on and on and on.

    I hope this reassures those 6 Million odd “American” Jews who may have to apply for citizenship of their own nation if the loony tune Zios continue to promote this mad mullah standard fanaticism.

    • Nathan
      November 21, 2017, 6:50 pm

      Yes, Ossinev, Judaism is a religion. However, the Jews are a people. You can take a walk over to the nearest library, and there you’ll find a book entitled “The History of the Jewish People”. There should also be a book entitled “The History of the Russian People” and a book entitled “The History of the English People” (and the list goes on and on). You won’t find a book entitled “The History of the Protestant People”. Indeed, there is no such people (nation). However, there is a people called the Jewish people, and this is the people that founded the State of Israel.

      Judaism is an abstract idea. Hence, it is not a group of human beings that see themselves as sharing some common heritage or descent. An abstract idea does not found a state or till the soil. Your use of the term Judaism as if it is a person is manipulative and dishonest.

      • eljay
        November 22, 2017, 7:34 am

        || Nathan: … the Jews are a people. You can take a walk over to the nearest library, and there you’ll find a book entitled “The History of the Jewish People”. … ||

        Toronto Maple Leafs fans are a nation. You can open up your favourite browser, and there you’ll find a website entitled “Leafs Nation”.

        || … there is a people called the Jewish people, and this is the people that founded the State of Israel. … ||

        There are people throughout the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who choose to acquire / hold the religion-based identity of Jewish, and it is a sub-set of these people who used terrorism and ethnic cleansing to established in geographic Palestine a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” that has spent roughly 70 years stealing, occupying and colonizing territory outside of its / Partition borders, committing (war) crimes and flouting international laws.

    • Mooser
      November 22, 2017, 4:27 pm

      “You can take a walk over to the nearest library, and there you’ll find a book entitled “The History of the Jewish People”.

      I found it, and checked it out! From the moment I picked up that book up until I laid it down I was convulsed with tears. Someday I intend on reading it.

  10. mcohen..
    November 21, 2017, 3:14 pm

    A binational state….sounds good.how did you manage to get david shulman on here.

  11. Ossinev
    November 22, 2017, 9:31 am

    @Nathan
    “You can take a walk over to the nearest library, and there you’ll find a book entitled “The History of the Jewish People”

    I`ll probably find a copy of the “protocols of the Elders of Zion” in the same library. I am a non fiction buff myself but do like the occasional fiction read. It would be interesting to compare the two ie works of fiction.
    “Judaism is an abstract idea. Hence, it is not a group of human beings that see themselves as sharing some common heritage or descent”
    You are spinning rapidly to the point where you will disappear up your own rear end.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

    So Jewish “people” all of a sudden don`t practice Judaism ?

    “Your use of the term Judaism as if it is a person is manipulative and dishonest”
    Sob sob sob sob sob. Presumably my use of the terms Christianity,Islam,Hinduism is fine though because they are not” people” whereas the non Judaistic Jews are.

    • Nathan
      November 22, 2017, 2:59 pm

      Ossinev – I understand that a book about the Jewish people is for you fiction, but you regard the wikipedia website as a serious source. You seem to be quite a serious intellectual. Well, anyway, I assume that you didn’t even read the wikipedia website too carefully. The very first line tells us: “This article is about the Jewish religion. For consideration of ethnic, historic and cultural aspects of the Jewish identity, see Jews”. In short, there is the religion of Jews (Judaism), but there is also history and ethnicity of the Jews (just as there is the history and the ethnicity of the Italians, and the Irish, and the Norwegians, etc, etc).

      You don’t really understand too much about the Jews. You’d be surprised to find out that, indeed, most Jews don’t practice Judaism. It’s not even “all of a sudden”. You might want to check out the “History of the Jewish People” in the library after all. The Jews are an ancient people. The Jews created a religion called Judaism. I understand that this might be just a bit too complicated, but try to stay focused: A Jew is a member of the Jewish people even if he doesn’t practice the Jewish religion.

      Notice the word “Judaism”. The suffix “-ism” means that it’s an abstract concept. The “Juda-” part of the word is derived from the ancient tribe (nation, ethnicity) of Judah. So, Judaism is an abstract concept (a religion) of the people of Judah (i.e the Jews).

      • Mooser
        November 22, 2017, 3:40 pm

        Hey “Nathan”, did you ever hear the story of six blind men and the irrelevant?

  12. Maghlawatan
    November 23, 2017, 8:09 am

    Israel is drenched in violence. It is a fractal that governs all relationships in Judistan. They can’t switch it off.

    And they tell themselves lies about who they are. The curse of the planter. Like in the Deep South.

  13. Maghlawatan
    November 23, 2017, 8:11 am

    “Struggle for basic rights ” begins . In the Jewish space. It is frightening how a culture can be hijacked to become its opposite.
    Imagine what the Baal Shem Tov would say. How very Cossack.

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