Trump just ‘pushed the two-state solution over the cliff’

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Donald Trump’s announcement recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and getting architects busy on designing the new U.S. embassy is new challenge for supporters of the two-state solution. While Trump gave lip service to such an outcome, even mainstream U.S. analysts said on the cable news networks today that his move is such a rebuke to Palestinians and their Arab neighbors that it has destroyed any credibility the U.S. claimed to have as a broker and made it impossible for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to negotiate with the United States.

The move is meant to “appease” big donors such as Sheldon Adelson as well as evangelical Christians, Marc Ginsberg, a former ambassador to Morocco, said angrily on MSNBC. Trump, he said, “pushed the two state solution over the cliff.” And put “a knife in the back of the Palestinian leadership.”

“It’s a whole new ballgame now,” Khaled Elgindy of Brookings tweeted today, and cited this statement by Mohammad Dahlan of Fatah, calling for an end to the farce of the peace process.

 

Marc Ginsberg

While Ron Mott, reflecting the views of Palestinians from Jerusalem, said that the move solidifies the view that there is “apartheid” in Palestine. Apartheid– on MSNBC.

Many liberal Zionists and mainstream voices responded to the news with despair on MSNBC. Steve Clemons said that the move gives Israel “one of its prizes” in negotiations without it having to withdraw from settlements or perform in other ways. “American credibility is shot,” said Joel Rubin, a former Obama State Department aide. While Andrea Mitchell of NBC said the move was a particular insult to King Abdullah of Jordan who came to Washington last week and appealed to Trump not to extend the recognition and who called Trump in the last day to repeat the warning.

Jared Kushner may think the Saudis are OK with this, but if so he is misinformed, Mitchell said.

“A huge give for Israel and basically nothing for Palestinians,” Ilan Goldenberg, a former State Department official under Obama, tweeted.

Hamas rejects Trump’s call for peace.

Asks Palestinians for calmness and to seek peace. No peace under occupation. We will go on our way till liberating the whole Palestine.

Many see Trump’s move as fostering the BDS campaign, for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Yousef Munayyer of the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights seizes on the fact that Trump’s statement rips the mask off U.S. neutrality and should end any illusions about the promises of the peace process. (Via the Institute for Middle East Understanding)

Trump has demolished the foundation of the peace process as no Palestinian leader could engage in negotiations this transparently biased toward Israel.

There were few believers in American mediation left, and now, mercifully, there will be fewer. This clarification should add to the ranks of those calling for civil society action to hold Israel accountable for violations of Palestinian rights through the use of boycotts, divestment and sanctions.

Yousef Munayyer

The US Campaign for Palestinian Rights has a statement making the same point: it is long past time for the world to “pressure” Israel, via boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS).

Ashira, a Jerusalem journalist, echoes the analysis of the liberals on MSNBC:

Trump speech declares Oslo Accord dead he declares the failure of 20 years of negotiations he killed the peace process and has turned the table on the Palestinian Authority strengthening those calling for one state

Chemi Shalev of Haaretz: “So far, Trump’s speech is pure Bibi.”

Khaled Elgindy of Brookings said the move is the “straw that breaks the camel’s back” in terms of U.S. credibility as a negotiator. Trump had made the decision on the basis of “parochial, narrow” and “sectarian” interests, hinting at the importance of the Israel lobby and rightwing evangelicals.

Daniel Levy echoes that view at the National Interest. The move is a winner among “the very small cohort of conservative American Jewish support [Trump] carries, especially the subset of that cohort known as Sheldon Adelson,” he writes. But the shift may end up favoring Palestinians by generating “a demand among the public for a game-changing shift in strategy away from the current comfort zone of an American-Israeli defined peace process.” That might be code for BDS.

Josh Rogin of the Washington Post says that both Defense Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson opposed the move on security grounds (shades of Marshall and Forrestal opposing recognition of Israel and pushing for return of refugees).

J Street has put out an anguished statement calling the decision “premature and divisive” and likely to result in violence. The ask? “Members of Congress and Jewish communal leaders concerned about Israel’s security and future should not support this misguided and damaging decision.”

But look at Democratic leader Chuck Schumer. He urged Trump to end his indecision and recognize Jerusalem as the capital.

Schumer is in the same camp as Breitbart, which calls the move “an event of almost biblical significance.”

And Elliott Abrams. At Haaretz he goes full-metal Zionist, in a piece titled, “Bravo President Trump for standing up to Palestinian blackmail.”

The refusal to acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s capital is part of refusing full and normal legitimacy to the Jewish State…
Donald Trump didn’t make Jerusalem the capital of Israel any more than the United Nations made Israel the Jewish State. He simply acknowledged a fact.

 

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93 Responses

  1. Boris
    December 6, 2017, 3:22 pm

    Ham-ass now, as always, calls for “liberating the whole Palestine”. Not part of it – whole.

    Hannah Ashrawi once said that Palestinians are “all or nothing people” .

    Well, if they don’t want to share, guess what they are getting!

    • Mooser
      December 6, 2017, 3:45 pm

      “Well, if they don’t want to share, guess what they are getting!”

      Jeez, with the Zionist Christian Evangelical Zionists backing the Zionists, nobody else has a chance!

      • Egbert
        December 6, 2017, 5:06 pm

        Ignore Boris. He is just do what he does best – talking Alatovkrap.

    • US Citizen
      December 6, 2017, 6:26 pm

      Come now Doris, it is the israelis that do not want to ‘share’ and guess what they will be getting? Years of BDS, bloodshed and violence because they cannot see fit to ‘share’. The exquisite irony is that Israel and you are so blinkered you won’t even recognise the single-state when it hits you in the face.

    • Edward Q
      December 6, 2017, 8:39 pm

      What is Israel calling for?

    • Maghlawatan
      December 7, 2017, 4:47 am

      Doris

      You have to be nice to the Palestinians. Israel is a landing strip on the edge of Asia. It may become a Brazilian. That will hurt bigly.

    • Talkback
      December 7, 2017, 11:17 am

      Well Boris, which asses wrote this to “liberate” the whole of Palestine?

      “WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream – the redemption of Israel.”

      And which asses wrote this:
      “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

  2. Diane Mason
    December 6, 2017, 4:22 pm

    “In exclusive comments to Haaretz, Saeb Erekat, chief Palestinian peace negotiator, sharply rebuked U.S. President Donald Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital on Wednesday.

    “President Trump has delivered a message to the Palestinian people: the two-state solution is over. Now is the time to transform the struggle for one-state with equal rights for everyone living in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea,” Erekat said. ”

    !

    • Blownaway
      December 6, 2017, 5:29 pm

      Now is the time for Abbas and his party to really lead and resign en masse their strategy of relying on the US has failed. They have failed their people bigly

      • echinococcus
        December 7, 2017, 8:41 am

        Now is the time for Quisling, Pétain, Tsolakoglou, Pavelic and Co. to take up arms against the Reich; their past policy failed big time, eh?

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2017, 9:35 pm

        ” to take up arms against the Reich; “ “Echin”

        Of course, you are speaking figuratively, not advocating violence.

      • echinococcus
        December 11, 2017, 2:01 am

        Count on Mooser to pretend to completely miss the point

      • Mooser
        December 11, 2017, 5:13 pm

        “Count on Mooser to pretend to completely miss the point”

        Whoops. I think I did. I apologize, “echin”.

      • echinococcus
        December 11, 2017, 6:40 pm

        No apologies needed, Mooser: whether you pretend to miss the point or really do, you’re still the only one to know.

    • US Citizen
      December 6, 2017, 6:28 pm

      And for you Erekat and the Palestinians to get off the fence and do something, like pursue the ICC!

  3. Maghlawatan
    December 6, 2017, 4:35 pm

    Only de Gaulle could get the French out of Algeria. Only a right wing moron could blow up the peace process sham.
    So Israel won. What about the 5 m stateless people that came with the territory?

    The worst thing about the mess was what the British board of deputies said .

    “Jerusalem has been the spiritual centre of Jewish life for 3,000 years, since the time of King David,” he said. “Given that Jerusalem is in fact historically, presently and legally Israel’s capital, the decision by many countries not to formally recognise this has been an act of post-truth petulance.”

    Israel has no future as a state amongst the family of nations.

    • Boris
      December 6, 2017, 5:03 pm

      >>Only a right wing moron could blow up the peace process sham.

      If it were a sham, why is he a moron?

      >> What about the 5 m stateless people that came with the territory?

      They are not stateless – they are citizens of Jordan. They can vote for their king.

      >> Israel has no future as a state amongst the family of nations.

      Looks like a good example of petulance.

  4. WeAreAllMadeOfStars
    December 6, 2017, 4:59 pm

    I must admit that I don’t understand all this fuss about this recognition. What difference does it exactly make •on the ground• . All I can read is hypocritical statements from “leaders” the world over that actually never lift a finger or took any sort of actions to help the Palestinian people.

    Did it really take 24 years for M. Dahlan to realize what a farce the Oslo peace process was ?

    Are you telling me that the US lost credibility today ? I mean today ? What fool on Earth lent any credibility to the US as a honest broker ? It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

    The problem is not that Mr Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital it is that the world has been watching the settlement enterprise for over 50 years now and kept silent.

    All those countries that blame Mr Trump and the USA should get their acts together and recognize Palestine! Won’t happen and even if it did, what difference would it make ? None

  5. Kathleen
    December 6, 2017, 7:20 pm

    Watched at the same time, Clemons also said P Trump “stabbed the two state solution in the back.”

    One thing that is on the constructive side MSNBC provided a much wider perspective than they generally do, Ayman Moyheldin in Jerusalem, Richard Engel actually saying both groups have “historic ties”to Jerusalem. Noura Erakat was on and you Mondo folks could do a whole piece based on what she had to say, Basically said it was a “farce” that there were any peace negotiations. Al Velshi shared a historic perspective that was basically accurate although did not show the present map of the West bank at this time in an accurate way,

    “Off the clip”…….”stab in the back of the two state solution”…..”the straw that broke the camel’s back” ….”nail in the coffin of the two state solution” Reality strikes

    • echinococcus
      December 7, 2017, 8:38 am

      MSNBC provided a much wider perspective than they generally do…

      Oh yeah, some very wide perspective. From the imperial looters, and the handpicked collaborators of the so Democratic imperial looters and the equally Democratic opponents who’ll never say a word in opposition.

      Such a wide spectrum of opinion, where the only subject is… “the two state solution” to keep Zionism squatting, because it was “stabbed in the back” by the other, clowning wing of the Imperial party, “in the back” because of course no one expected the US to be what it is. Very wide spectrum. Nary a word about hanging offences against international law and even less about return of Palestine to its owners.

  6. pabelmont
    December 6, 2017, 8:02 pm

    I don’t know what is wise, but I respect widely held principles. Accordingly, I suggest PLO et al. proceed on two fronts simultaneously.

    First go strongly to ICC with every possible proof of Israeli war crimes. If ICC is the place to press against Israeli apartheid, then press on.

    Second tell the world that with Israeli/USA intransigence and failure to respect previous agreements, and Netanyahu having called the 2SS dead, it is time to ask Israel to grant full citizenship (and the vote for those of age) to all Palestinians now living under Israeli rule and to rescind all laws which limit the Knesset to a Zionist sounding-board. A call for one country for all its people, more or less what the British Mandate called for (but Britain declined to seek).

    If 2SS is dead, then 1SS remains. Ask the world to demand it.

    • Boomer
      December 7, 2017, 11:45 am

      re: “it is time to ask Israel to grant full citizenship (and the vote for those of age) to all Palestinians now living under Israeli rule and to rescind all laws which limit the Knesset to a Zionist sounding-board. A call for one country for all its people, ”

      Isn’t that what this site had advocated for years? Seems plausible, but I don’t expect to live to see it.

  7. Atlantaiconoclast
    December 6, 2017, 10:14 pm

    I don’t want to hear Mark Ginsberg castigating anyone on this issue. He has always put Israel first. Trump is a dolt on this issue, but let’s not pretend Ginsberg and others are above Trump on the overall issue.

  8. Kathleen
    December 6, 2017, 11:22 pm

    Tonight (Wed Dec 6th) Maddow went on and on and on about how all of Flynn’s dealings had to do with Russia,Russia, Russia. Never even whispered about Israeli PM BB’s lobbying Trump and team to convince Russia to vote against the UN resolution. She sure is a suck up .

    No mention anywhere of how Netanyahu basically admitted today that Israel has wanted all of Jerusalem since its birth in 48. Clearly admitting that they never ever intended to share any of the Palestinians land that they acquired from the UN.

  9. Marnie
    December 7, 2017, 5:13 am

    And also California is once again on fire. Calamity after calamity is the presidency of this circus peanut. Literally hell on earth.

  10. HarryLaw
    December 7, 2017, 5:29 am

    Of course recognizing Jerusalem as Israels capital is contrary to International Law, but International Law has been a dead letter in Israel/Palestinian affairs for decades. The Palestinians must share some of the blame, most observers could see the “peace process” for what it was, a deliberately drawn out con designed to buy time for Israel to build and consolidate more settlements. When the Oslo accords were signed over 20 years ago it was envisaged that Israel would give up more of the West Bank ending in Palestinian self determination. From day one the Oslo accords were a failure, why, because the Israeli settlement enterprise went into high gear, and has continued ever since. These settlements are of course, like the recognition of Jerusalem, grave war crimes contrary to International Law [Geneva conventions Article 49.6] but so what, they did nothing over the settlement enterprise, what are they going to do now? Probaby run to Saudi Arabia and the other GCCvassels of US/Israel, who, in my opinion are anxious to throw them under the bus [at least their leaders are] I hope the Palestinians realize who their true friends are, the ‘arc of resistance’ Iran, Iraq, Syria and Hezbollah I will not hold my breath. One of the first acts of resistance….RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) – Palestinians switched off Christmas lights at Jesus’ traditional birthplace in Bethlehem on Wednesday night in protest at U.S. President Donald Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. He said it was unclear whether the illuminations would be turned on again before the main Christmas festivities. That will show them.

    • Boomer
      December 7, 2017, 11:43 am

      re “The Palestinians must share some of the blame”

      Why is that? Did they, like some of Harvey Weinstein’s victims, voluntarily go to his hotel room? Did they volunteer to be invaded, dispossessed, and oppressed?

      • HarryLaw
        December 7, 2017, 1:19 pm

        Boomer, You must be one of the very few who did not know why the “peace process” has lasted so long.
        TEL AVIV, June 26— Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir was quoted in a published interview today as saying he wanted to drag out peace talks with the Palestinians for a decade while vastly increasing the number of Jewish settlers in Israeli-occupied territories.

        Had he held on to his office instead of being defeated this week in Israel’s national election, Mr. Shamir reportedly said, “I would have conducted negotiations on autonomy for 10 years and in the meantime we would have reached half a million people” in the West Bank. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/27/world/shamir-is-said-to-admit-plan-to-stall-talks-for-10-years.html
        This is Israeli policy, the PA have gone along with it.
        Netanyahu did better, he dragged it out for over 20 years.

      • Boomer
        December 7, 2017, 2:31 pm

        re: “You must be one of the very few who did not know why the “peace process” has lasted so long.”

        Oh, right. “The Palestinians rejected a generous offer.” Now that you mention it, I’ve heard that. And other bull.

      • JLewisDickerson
        December 7, 2017, 9:03 pm

        RE: Mr. Shamir reportedly said, “I would have conducted negotiations on autonomy for 10 years and in the meantime we would have reached half a million people” in the West Bank. . . Netanyahu did better, he dragged it out for over 20 years. ~ HarryLaw

        MY COMMENT: Netanyahu was Shamir’s protégé!

        ■ PHOTO: P.M. Yitzhak Shamir with his protégé, Benjamin Netanyahu, at the Madrid Conference in 1991.

  11. Ossinev
    December 7, 2017, 7:42 am

    “President Trump has delivered a message to the Palestinian people: the two-state solution is over. Now is the time to transform the struggle for one-state with equal rights for everyone living in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea,” Erekat said. ”

    So when is the PA going to formally announce that they are stepping down and “are formally handing back the keys” ie dissolving the sham Palestinian “Authority”.

    This is the only logical next step in a ” one state/equal rights” process.

  12. HarryLaw
    December 7, 2017, 10:58 am

    When Professor N Finkelstein spoke in Dublin last year he said this of some the Paletinian solidarity movement “If you can’t get half a loaf, why not ask for the whole loaf, if it seems as if the two states is not within reach, well why not ask for one state? I can understand that reasoning , the logic of it, but you would have to convince me of two things, number one, that two states is not within reach, and you would have to convince me that one state is more within reach than two states. I think neither propositions is true, I think the second proposition is positively insane. If Israel will not abandon/give up the West Bank, if that’s true do you think it would be easier for Israel to give up a Jewish State? Does that make any sense? If two states is remote, one state is another time warp”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS4eBHz2wEU He also said can you name one country in the world that supports a one state solution? None, so you think you are going to win a cause against the whole world, these are flights of fancy, fantasy as well, they are nothing to do with the real world?
    Israeli Minister Bennett wants Palestinian areas of the West Bank to be administered by Palestinians [with no represenation in the Knesset] those areas would be under Israeli sovereignty [“the Land of Israel”] he said if the Palestinians refused, they would be compelled to accept it. The Palestinians must unite and come up with a plan of action together with their true freinds in the region otherwise Bennetts proposals will be implemented by default.

    • MHughes976
      December 7, 2017, 2:03 pm

      Trump has grievously insulted the Palestinians, certainly, but I don’t think he’s killed any process that was alive and worth preserving. That is really the one thing he hasn’t done here. There will be more talks about talks about something allegedly bordering on a 2ss quite soon, surely,, if Trump’s peace proposal, as it will be called, does emerge from wherever it’s hiding. That process of talking will probably get no further than its predecessors but it will be undead.

    • Kathleen
      December 7, 2017, 2:39 pm

      The “second proposition” exposes Israel’s apartheid status more clearly.

      The “second proposition” completely exposes Israel’s underbelly.

      One state,, one person, one vote.

  13. Keith
    December 7, 2017, 5:00 pm

    FOLKS- All I hear is Trump, Trump, Trump. Where is the historical perspective? Did I miss it in the article? Did I miss it in the comments? Why no mention of the bipartisan vote in 1995? Who was in the White House in 1995, etc? A quote to refresh our memories that in 1995 the US Congress voted overwhelmingly to move the US embassy to Jerusalem. Trump didn’t sign the waiver, so let us give Congress and the Democrats the recognition they so richly deserve.

    “The US Congress in 1995 passed legislation recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and requiring the government to move the US embassy there. Urged on by Binyamin Netanyahu (then Israel’s opposition leader) and AIPAC, both of whom were determined to scuttle the Oslo process, the measure passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. The current crisis exists only because the White House is required to sign a waiver every six months postponing the relocation of the embassy, and this time Trump hasn’t done it.”(Mouin Rabbani) http://normanfinkelstein.com/2017/12/06/rabbani-on-jerusalem/

  14. Emet
    December 8, 2017, 12:04 am

    Arafat threw the two state option over the cliff, not Trump. Arafat showed that when it came to crunch time that the Palestinians are not willing to share. Go read Bill Clintons take on Camp David 2000 and start learning what the Palestinians are really like. If they are not willing to share then remain with nothing.

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2017, 1:29 pm

      ” when it came to crunch time that the Palestinians are not willing to share”

      “Emet”, please! We are Jews “Emet”. That alone gives us a lot, and more than enough to share with Palestinians. If they are “not willing”, we can show them how to share.

      ” If they are not willing to share then remain with nothing.”

      Gosh, that sounds so magisterial. Is it a Torah quote?

      • Emet
        December 9, 2017, 4:27 am

        What are you talking about? You are not making sense. Kindly elaborate on showing them.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2017, 12:13 pm

        “What are you talking about? You are not making sense.”

        I’m talking about believing Judaism has something to offer, and not just something to take.

    • eljay
      December 8, 2017, 1:57 pm

      || Emet: … start learning what the Palestinians are really like. If they are not willing to share then remain with nothing. ||

      Another f*cked up Zionist lecture on “morality”: The victim in the rapist’s basement wasn’t willing to share, so the rapist killed her. Now we know what she was really like.

      • Emet
        December 9, 2017, 4:33 am

        eljay, what is an atheist doing a website that has two competing narratives, both entrenched in religion which forms the basis of the conflict , but you only support one narrative? Do you have some bias that you find difficult to explain? We know the type and have learn’t ways to deal with this well known disease. You know what they say? “The bigger they are the harder they fall.”

      • eljay
        December 9, 2017, 9:02 am

        || Emet: eljay, what is an atheist doing a website … ||

        One does not need to be “entrenched in religion” in order to:
        – condemn injustice and immorality; and
        – advocate justice, accountability and equality.

        || … that has two competing narratives … but you only support one narrative? … ||

        You are free to support the narratives of both the rapist and his victim. I’ll stick with supporting justice, accountability and equality.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2017, 12:10 pm

        ,” both entrenched in religion which forms the basis of the conflict ,” “Emet”

        Maybe you are right, “Emet”. An awful lot of people say that Jews and Judaism bring conflict wherever they go. That’s probably what happened in Germany, huh?

        “You know what they say? “The bigger they are the harder they fall.”

        Exactly “Emet”! That’s why the article is titled: “Trump just ‘pushed the two-state solution over the cliff’

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2017, 9:30 pm

        , “what is an atheist doing a website that has two competing narratives, both entrenched in religion which forms the basis of the conflict”

        “Emet” you are too late. “Eljay” came to Mondo with a get signed by a Chef Rabbi.

        So what should we do with “atheist Jews” in your “Jewish Nation” ? Would you exclude them from Zionism?

      • Emet
        December 10, 2017, 1:01 pm

        Moser, no Jews don’t bring conflict. It’s the simple people like you who prefer spending money on alcohol than spending on kids education. Jews make do and place importance on community. And those who do not belong, like you, who blame the Jews for problems of your own making. And so it went with the Germans.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2017, 3:04 pm

        “And those who do not belong, like you…”

        Kish mir en toches”. Come kick me out.

        I don’t get it “Emet”? What is the power you think you have over Jews?

        Feh I shouldn’t hassle you, I get the feeling all this Judaism stuff is very new to you.

        “Jews make do and place importance on community.”

        That’s right, chump, and I don’t think we will throw our community away and go over the cliff with Zionism.

      • eljay
        December 10, 2017, 3:23 pm

        || Emet: … Jews don’t bring conflict. … ||

        Jews are individuals and not an undifferentiated mass of people. Not all Jews bring conflict – on this I’m sure we can agree – but Jewish supremacists (Zionists) most definitely do bring conflict and all manner of (war) crimes. They’ve been doing so deliberately and unapologetically for decades and show no sign of slowing down.

      • Maghlawatan
        December 10, 2017, 4:30 pm

        Émet this site has enough bot fruitcakes.
        Israel has the same problem as Russia , Belarus , Ukraine and Poland. WW2 trauma. Untreated. Israel Drinks it with a chaser of extreme violence.

        Israel has nothing in common psychologically with diaspora Jews.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2017, 6:44 pm

        “And those who do not belong, like you, who blame the Jews for problems of your own making”

        Yup ask a Zionist, and the problem is always too many Jews.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2017, 7:11 pm

        “We know the type and have learn’t ways to deal with this well known disease.” “Emet”

        “Emet” who is the “we” in your comment? Are you speaking for yourself, your outpost, your settlement, Jerusalem, or all the Jews who “belong”?

    • Talkback
      December 9, 2017, 6:03 am

      Emet: “Arafat showed that when it came to crunch time that the Palestinians are not willing to share.”

      By sharing Emet means that Israel gets more than 80% of historic Palestine, keeps its natives and their descendants expelled, denationalized and dispossesed and also keeps all territories that it illegaly annexed and or illegally settled.

      The perverted view of a typical Zionist.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2017, 10:25 pm

        ” The perverted view of a typical Zionist.”

        If these are the people assigned by Hasbara Headquarters to influence people in favor of Zionism, it’s pretty funny’

        If they are just Zionist egos on the half-shell, self-appointed blatherers who feel they have the information and the communication skills to influence people favorably, that’s funny, too, and so sad.

        They seem to think the world consists of only two kinds of people. Jewish Zionists, and Jewish people who haven’t heard the good news about Zionism yet, and should be thrilled at what they have fallen heir to.
        Of anybody else’s existence (well, except for Palestinians, the locus of evil in mankind) they seem completely unaware.

      • HarryLaw
        December 10, 2017, 7:00 am

        Talkback, If Israel only wanted 80% of the land, there might not be a problem since the Palestinians have already conceded approx that much and settled on 22% of Palestine. The problem is Israel wants it all look at the the Likud charter…
        The Likud Party Platform states:

        a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

        b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

        c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

        d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
        Naftali Bennett spelt it out in a New York Times article recently, Israel will have sovereignty over all the ‘Land of Israel’ Palestinians will have self governing enclaves within the sovereign state of Israel with no Knesset representation, if they refuse this “generous” offer, they will be compelled to accept it. Israel only wants a one state solution based on discrimination and South African style Bantustans. They want the land, but not the people.

      • HarryLaw
        December 10, 2017, 7:17 am

        Sorry I left out Israel’s Golan Heights annexation “The Golan Heights will forever remain part of Israel, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared Sunday during the first-ever cabinet meeting held on the Golan”. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-vows-golan-heights-will-remain-part-of-israel-forever/ Next the Litani, possibly a buffer zone between the Golan and Damascus, where will it end?

    • Emet
      December 10, 2017, 10:57 am

      Anybody who has been to East Jerusalem will realize that it’s not too glamorous. So what’s going here? Why all the fuss? And the Mondoweiss cult have no idea.
      So pay attention. The fuss is all about the Palestinians being in charge of what Muslims already have. The Muslims like to build mosques over others religious holy sites. There are many instances of this happening. And so it goes for the Temple Mount. The Koran and Hadith support the Jewish narrative and yet for prestigious reasons, the people now called Palestinians want to run things on the site that is the First Holiest for Jews and the Third holiest for Muslims. That’s what is behind the conflict. There are minor other issues as well that can be resolved. The issue that cannot be resolved at the moment is Palestinian pride that has been artificially inflated by the likes you, the Mondoweiss dumblings. If you really want to help the Palestinians then tell them at every opportunity that they will never and should never control the Temple Mount. It’s the holiest site for Jews. And this is the compromise that the Palestinians need to make for peace. If they do this then the other stuff will be resolved, and quickly.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2017, 3:12 pm

        “The issue that cannot be resolved at the moment is Palestinian pride that has been artificially inflated by the likes you, the Mondoweiss dumblings. If you really want to help the Palestinians then tell them at every opportunity that they will never and should never control the Temple Mount. “ “Emet”

        Damn, “Emet”, if Israel doesn’t pay you to get their message across, well, I don’t know why. Do they know what a powerful advocate they have in you? Gee, after reading just a couple of your screeds, I can’t see why anybody wouldn’t be damn good and ready to make up their mind about Zionism.

        And once again, I commend the Moderaters for being willing to risk everything for their free-speech principles.

      • eljay
        December 10, 2017, 6:12 pm

        || Emet: … If you really want to help the Palestinians then tell them at every opportunity that they will never and should never control the Temple Mount. It’s the holiest site for Jews. And this is the compromise that the Palestinians need to make for peace. If they do this then the other stuff will be resolved, and quickly. ||

        So, just to be clear, you’re saying that if Palestinians agree to relinquish stewardship of Temple Mount, Israel will:
        – end its on-going occupation and colonization of not-Israeli territory;
        – withdraw to within its / Partition borders;
        – accept accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes;
        – repatriate its non-Jewish Israeli refugees;
        – make reparations; and
        – transform from a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews into a secular and democratic state of and for all Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis.

        That’s a hell of a promise to make. ZioHQ is going to be mighty upset that you went off-script.

      • Emet
        December 11, 2017, 12:51 am

        eljay, first of all, the Palestinians cannot give up stewardship of the Temple Mount because they don’t have it and have never had it. The Jordanian Wakf temporarily does.
        In answer to your factually incorrect statement, the conflict can be resolved with land swaps, together with the Palestinians deciding to live along side and accept an independent Jewish state. This will include compensation by Arab countries that confiscated property and expelled Jews from their lands. An acceptance by Palestinians that the land is part of the ancient Jewish story, will include the understanding that most of the stories in the Torah occurred in the area that you call the West Bank and what I call Judea and Samaria.
        Palestinians need to give up on their false dream that they, this group of people with a short history that started in 1964, will gain stewardship of the Temple Mount. Help them on their journey instead of blowing smoke up their dark side.

      • eljay
        December 11, 2017, 8:17 am

        || Emet: eljay, first of all, the Palestinians cannot give up stewardship of the Temple Mount because they don’t have it and have never had it. … ||

        So what you’re saying is that if Palestinians give up aspirations of stewardship, everything else I wrote will come to pass. Fair enough.

        || … In answer to your factually incorrect statement … ||

        …you completely renege on your promise that “the other stuff will be resolved, and quickly”. I see that ZioHQ wasted no time getting you back on-script.

      • Talkback
        December 11, 2017, 9:41 am

        Emet: “ljay, first of all, the Palestinians cannot give up stewardship of the Temple Mount because they don’t have it and have never had it.”

        Well, just another lie from Sheqer, see Palestine under mandate.

        Emet: “In answer to your factually incorrect statement, the conflict can be resolved with land swaps, together with the Palestinians deciding to live along side and accept an independent Jewish state.”

        Well, the only side not accepting another indepdent state in historic Palestine is the one occupying, illegally annexing and illegaly settling in it. Guess who’s not willing to share it and Jerusalem?

        Emet: “This will include compensation by Arab countries that confiscated property and expelled Jews from their lands.”

        You mean: This will include compensation by Israel that confiscated property and expelled Palestinians from their lands. Cause it has nothing to do with what other countries did or actually didn’t.

        Emet: “An acceptance by Palestinians that the land is part of the ancient Jewish story, will include the understanding that most of the stories in the Torah occurred in the area that you call the West Bank and what I call Judea and Samaria.”

        An acceptance by Jews that the land is part of modern Palestinian story, will include the understanding that Palestininans have the right to live anywhere in it or return to it.

        Emet: “Palestinians need to give up on their false dream that they, this group of people with a short history that started in 1964 …”

        The history of Palestinians is longer than the history of Israelis and starts in 1925. You don’t know that, because neither you nor your ancestors have ever been citizens of Palestine before 1948. In 1964 the PLO only excluded Jews to be Palestinians who came as settlers during the mandate.

        That’s understandable, because these settlers came without the consent of the natives and established a state without any referendum and through war and expulsion. You seem to be very proud of this crimes against humanity.

      • Emet
        December 11, 2017, 3:46 pm

        For a moment there Talkback, I thought you may be taking us all back hundreds if not thousands of years. All you could manage was the 1929 massacre of Jews by Arabs in Hebron. Violence is just a way of life in some circles. That’s how it was and that’s how it will be. Not so Talkback?

      • RoHa
        December 11, 2017, 8:15 pm

        “The history of Palestinians is longer than the history of Israelis and starts in 1925.”

        It starts long before that. The Palestinians are descended mostly from the people who were living there before Abraham wandered in from Iraq. Of course, lots of invaders, travellers, and passing sailors have left their genetic imprint.

        At various times some of them have worshipped Baal, YahuWahu, Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Christ, Allah, and probably a fair few others. Some of them called themselves Jews, and some of them called themselves Samaritans, and called each other terms the moderators will not permit. After they learned Arabic they called themselves Arabs.

        They might only have started calling themselves Palestinians in 1925, but they didn’t pop into existence then. They’ve been there all the time. They are the indigenous people, not the recent Polish invaders.

      • Talkback
        December 12, 2017, 8:40 am

        RoHa: “It starts long before that.”

        The point of issue was citizenship. Palestinians legally exist since 1925 while Israelis legally exist since 1952.

      • Talkback
        December 12, 2017, 9:09 am

        Emet: “For a moment there Talkback, I thought you may be taking us all back hundreds if not thousands of years.”

        You seem to be disoriented most of the time.

        Emet: “All you could manage was the 1929 massacre of Jews by Arabs in Hebron.”

        What are you talking about, Emet? What could I “manage”?

        Emet: “Violence is just a way of life in some circles. That’s how it was and that’s how it will be.”

        Sure. No Zionism, no Jewish terrorism, no Israel, no Jewish majority through expulsion of Palestinans, no massacring, no raping, no looting, no further conquest of even more land, no occupation, no illegal annexing of and illegal settling in occupied territories. What did Jews in Palestine actually achieve without violence? Where would Jews in Palestine be without violence? Violence, terrorism, expulsion, dispossession and disenfrichesment is INBUILD in Zionism.

  15. Ossinev
    December 8, 2017, 9:52 am

    @Emet
    “Go read Bill Clintons take on Camp David 2000 and start learning what the Palestinians are really like”

    Is it anything like his “take” on Monica Lewinsky as in “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” etc etc?

    As for the supposed “cliff” the two state solution which for whatever reason you refer to as the two state “option” was from day one a Zionist scam at the bottom of a cliff. The good news is that Zionist are so full of themselves that they don`t recognise when they have scammed themselves triumphantly into a one way no way back cul de sac.One state solution option call it what you like that is the only process left other than mass genocide and/or ethnic cleansing which might be messy and bloody and well Nazi like.

    BTW Pictures of Jerusalem (Urusalima) have featured heavily in the media recently for obvious reasons and the eyes are invariably drawn to the eternal symbol of Urusalima the glorious golden topped Dome of the Rock identifying Urusalima as a holy Muslim city. Now that they have their “eternal” undivided Jewish Urusalima capital the Ziofreaks will very soon
    become seriously pissed off and no doubt be focusing their wailing guns on this anomaly.
    Demolition teams on standby perhaps waiting for the nod from Daffy Donald. Screw the fact that it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. UNESCO like all other International Institutions including the UN are terminally biased against poor long suffering eternally victimised tiny Israel except when they say nice things about Israel in which case they are respected International Bodies which must be heeded.

    Tick tick.

    • Mooser
      December 10, 2017, 3:20 pm

      “and start learning what the Palestinians are really like” “Emet”

      One might very well think, one might, that the words “and start learning what the_______ are really like” would stick in a Jew’s throat. A Jew might well, I would think, choke on them. But I mustn’t project my own laryngeal failings on others.

      • Emet
        December 11, 2017, 6:23 am

        Some Jews refuse to move out from under the antisemites shadow. Some Jews believe they should always be there.
        Some Jews will always blame Jews first.
        Some Jews refuse to accept that Jews can and should have a state where Jews are masters of their own fate.

        You Mooser, are one of those Jews. I am getting a sense that you are a black hatter. Am I right?
        Do you own a shtreimel?

      • eljay
        December 11, 2017, 8:46 am

        || Emet: Some Jews …
        Some Jews …
        Some Jews …
        Some Jews …

        You Mooser, are one of those Jews. … ||

        Some Jews are hateful and immoral supremacists who believe that the religion-based identity of Jewish grants to those who choose to embrace it the right:
        – to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine; and
        – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

        You Emet, are one of those supremacist Jews.

      • Talkback
        December 11, 2017, 9:51 am

        Emet: “Some Jews refuse to accept that Jews can and should have a state where Jews are masters of their own fate.”

        Really? Jews can only be masters of their own fate in an Apartheid state build on terrorism, conquest, expulsion, dispossession and disfranchisement of Nonjews?

      • MHughes976
        December 11, 2017, 1:43 pm

        No one, Jewish or other, has a duty to accept disfranchisemen, or enfranchisement with an effect guaranteed to be secondary, because of belonging to a particular group with a particular affinity – including being Jewish. Which also means that no one has the right to belong to an affinity group which forms the majority in any state, since this ensures that the franchise of the others, if they are enfranchised at all, will be at best of secondary effect.

      • eljay
        December 11, 2017, 3:12 pm

        || Emet: … Some Jews refuse to accept that Jews can and should have a state where Jews are masters of their own fate. ||

        It sure is nifty being the “master of your own fate” when the U.S. shelters you from the consequences of your past and on-going (war) criminal actions by providing “unshakeable” financial, military, economic and political support.

        The problem with Zionist arrogance isn’t that Jewish supremacists will get their due some day – it’s that they will have anti-Semitically dragged non-Zionist Jews down with them.

      • Mooser
        December 11, 2017, 5:31 pm

        “You Mooser, are one of those Jews. I am getting a sense that you are a black hatter. Am I right?”

        A “black hatter”? Like Margaret Hamilton?, or the bad guy in a Western?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        December 11, 2017, 5:45 pm

        “A “black hatter”?”

        Or maybe Muumi Pappa??

        https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/29/2e/f4292e8f432c2613424f7de6763262f7.jpg

      • catalan
        December 11, 2017, 5:57 pm

        “The problem with Zionist arrogance isn’t that Jewish supremacists will get their due some day” eljay
        For clarity, what is this “due”? Are we talking about summary executions, concentration camps, deportations? As a side, it’s nice to be a Jew these days – they are doing rather well and yet people are still concerned about their future.

      • Mooser
        December 11, 2017, 6:11 pm

        “Do you own a shtreimel?”

        Oh, now I see what you mean!
        Thank you.

      • Mooser
        December 11, 2017, 6:25 pm

        “Some Jews”

        Take it away, Mick…

      • eljay
        December 11, 2017, 6:26 pm

        || catalan: … For clarity, what is this “due”? … ||

        Beats me. I can’t predict what form blowback might take.

      • Mooser
        December 11, 2017, 6:32 pm

        ” Are we talking about summary executions, concentration camps, deportations?”

        Heavens, no! In America, merely a social and/or political reappraisal. For an insular and self-sufficient community, hardly even noticeable.

        “As a side, it’s nice to be a Jew these days”

        Judaism as a side order to a heaping helping of Unitarian-Universalism? Sounds delicious!

      • RoHa
        December 11, 2017, 8:22 pm

        “Do you own a shtreimel?”

        Mooser, if one of those things doesn’t convince you that you are a direct descendant of a tribe from the South Eastern shore of the Mediterranean, I don’t know what could.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        December 11, 2017, 10:50 pm

        “..a big fur hat..”

        And if talking about those ordinary “black hatters”, here’s an exemplary one:

        http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/joseph-stalin-in-1915-after-being-arrested-again-he-was-exiled-for-4-picture-id535783399

      • echinococcus
        December 12, 2017, 2:40 am

        “Catalan”, the guy who presented unsourced an unsubstantiated, undocumented quote from Mihail Sebastian with the obvious suggestion that it was an Eliade quote, still has the crust to write here and ask “For clarity, what is…”

        Where does Mondo “moderation” keep tar and feathers?

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2017, 12:46 pm

        “Mooser, if one of those things doesn’t convince you…”

        “RoHa” , it did. As soon as I saw it, an ancient Hebrew melody came to my lips, here’s a translation:

        Raised in the woods so’s he knew ev’ry tree
        He kilt him a b’ar when he was only three
        Davy, Davy Crockett,
        King of the Wild Frontier…”

        “Where does Mondo “moderation” keep tar and feathers?”
        “Catalan” (among others) does a very good job of applying his own.

      • RoHa
        December 12, 2017, 5:49 pm

        Kaisa, I didn’t know Stalin was Amish.

  16. Mooser
    December 9, 2017, 10:27 pm

    This week, I realized something. When Phil banned Richard Witty, it was an act of compassion.

  17. Ossinev
    December 11, 2017, 12:54 pm

    Coming soon and you heard it first on Mondoweiss ? – the Yahoo`s second non pre-condition precondition for face to face “peace” negotiations with the Palestinians = Palestinian recognition of Urusalima as the undivided capital of Israel close on the heels of the classic non – precondition precondition of Palestinian recognition of Israel as a “Jewish” state.

  18. yonah fredman
    December 12, 2017, 3:38 am

    Jerusalem is not the real issue here, it is the future of Palestine-Israel or Israel-Palestine. I saw that Dahlan has come out in favor of undoing security collaboration between PA (Fatah) and Israel/US. This would be a major move. I don’t expect it.

    If Hamas and Fatah cannot get their act together as a result of this impetus, their credibility will be shot.

    By the way, I know it sounds like I’m letting Israel off the hook, but Egypt is still strangling Gaza, it seems. Considering how the Sinai is a type of no man’s land, wild west situation, there may be some reasons for caution, yet there should be pressure on Egypt to allow the free flow of people out of and back into Gaza. If infrastructure or security are the problem, maybe France or Russia can help.

    I read the headlines and react, that is my political involvement for the most part. I have to assume that for every activist there is an armchair political analyst like myself.

    The assertion that the next step is Israeli citizenship for all inhabitants of the West Bank, starting with East Jerusalem needs to be stated unequivocally in those words. Talks about civil rights are vague: be specific. Make us citizens of Israel. State it clearly. Otherwise the clarity of hamas and fatah who have not reached that decision will be louder than your vagueness. Annex us and give us citizenship. Don’t annex us, and give us citizenship. That has to be clear. It is not.

    • Sibiriak
      December 12, 2017, 6:29 am

      yonah fredman: . Annex us and give us citizenship.
      ———————————–

      Israel will not voluntarily annex the W.B. and Gaza and give millions of Palestinians Israeli citizenship, an act which would threaten the foundations of Zionism.

      The W.B and Gaza are (occupied) Palestinian territory; Israeli annexation of Palestinian territory is illegal under international law.

      The international community is not going pressure Israel to illegally annex more Palestinian territory.

      • yonah fredman
        December 12, 2017, 3:19 pm

        Sibiriak- you are correct re: Israel and the international community. They will not advocate a one state solution for their respective reasons. Neither will hamas and fatah for their reasons. But this post is about the death of the two state solution. What does that mean? I think it must be clear what that means.

      • Mooser
        December 12, 2017, 4:14 pm

        “But this post is about the death of the two state solution. What does that mean? I think it must be clear what that means.” “yonah”

        “yonah”, it means you don’t have to worry. You know what “pushed off a cliff means”. It means a smoothly accelerating flight, which requires no energy beyond the initial push! And never goes off-course, you know right where you’re headed.
        And everything has been fine so far, so don’t worry.

    • Mooser
      December 12, 2017, 12:59 pm

      “I read the headlines and react, that is my political involvement for the most part. I have to assume that for every activist there is an armchair political analyst like myself.” “yonah”

      “yonah”, now I see. You are an “armchair analyst”, not an “armchair Zionist.” Big difference.

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