Total number of comments: 253 (since 2009-08-24 01:14:18)
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Mondoweiss - The War of Ideas in the Middle East
+
Filler.
What if we think of it in these terms - Israel can attempt to be
1. as Zionist (or Jewish) as democracy allows?
or
2. as democratic as Jewish nationalism (or Zionism) allows?
For liberal Zionists, they think in terms of the first question. Conservative Zionists think in terms of the second question.
So, can a state be "Jewish and democratic"? Why can't a state have elements of both? Not all western democracies have the same laws and some even have laws that resemble the nationalist laws of Israel.
So what do you guys think? Are the terms mutually exclusive? I think not since "Jewish" is not a system of government.
I don't this this post added anything new. Why did other Palestinians (your sources?) say that Palestinians attacked him? Even +972mag said that other Palestinians attacked him.
This post didn't clarify the initial confusion.
Thanks for the correction.
The problem is that Americans are very sympathetic to Israel. Some would say that America likes Israel.
Aren't they already building an air-wall already? The Iron Dome they call it.
Hostage, I read your link about the Pittsburgh Platform (1885), and it doesn't reject "Herzel's proposals" since they couldn't possibly know what they were going to be. Der Judenstaat (1896) hasn't been published yet. The Dreyfus Affair (1895) hasn't even occurred yet.
I don't know which comment by Witty you were responding to so I don't see the relevance of the Platform for today's problems. But a good educational link none the less.
Seafoid, that's like pointing out the significance of two people defending black people on a white supremacist forum. You are right. eee and Witty are so deluded to even bother.
Can someone respond with a link about how the JNF "helped to Judaize Palestinian lands"? Or just tell me?
This could be a good thing. Now AIPAC would have to support the Palestinian UN membership push to keep their distance from J Street.
The Hamas operatives actually got a warning ahead of time of when the IDF raids would happen, but because they had their clocks set to Gaza time instead of Ramallah time, the IDF came one hour earlier than they anticipated.
However, I did get a recruitment letter from the French Army when I was 17 (I am technically a French citizen). I never got a letter from the IDF (I am an Israeli too). I didn't get a recruitment letter from the Tunisian army either (guess what, I'm Tunisian as well!). Of course, I saw lots of US military brochures (Yes, I am 'merican).
At French class in my Jewish high school in America, we sang and learned the French national anthem. I don't know what the Spanish and Latin classes did. I think we heard the Canadian anthem as well, we had a few Canadians in class too. I think learning the national anthem is one aspect of learning the culture where the language originated from. It doesn't serve as a recruitment device for a nationalist cause.
Reminds me of the movie Sum of All Fears.
Kraft Stadium? Kraft, as in the owner of the New England Patriots? I guess no one here is a Pats fan anymore.
Was the split of Czechoslovakia fascist work?
Woody, that's how negotiation works. I think eee is very well aware of it.
Israel doesn't have a constitution (i.e. one document plus amendments), but it does have a body of legal precedents and the Basic Law that make up Israel's "constitutional law". It is what they call an uncodified constitution.
Hostage, you wrote "Shertok testified that a Christian convert could no longer be considered a Jew. The Chief Rabbi disagreed ..."
But earlier your wrote, "the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Moshe Shertok ..."
Who was for what?
BTW, which Chief Rabbi of Palestine was he? Did they have two back then as well?
Hasn't Kadima withdrawn its support for this bill?
Woody, when someone converts to Judaism and adopts a Hebrew name, it is always [insert first name] ben Avraham or bat Sarah. They are not simply joining a religion, they are joining a people.
I think you have to let go of your preconceptions about God and religion because they are Christian conceptions, and not Jewish ones that you wish to understand. In Christianity, God has a relationship with individuals. In Judaism, I think it is more nation/people orientated.
In Ruth, she says "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God." Notice how she mentions people first, God second?
Lacking a belief in Hashem does not reject many of our customs. An atheist Jew can still pass down the customs to the next generation. If a Jew starts believe in Yeshua as meshiach, you can no longer pass down the customs to the next generation because they will be the wrong customs fortifying the wrong identity.
I'm not describing the tribe as religious. I'm describing the religion in a way that resemble certain aspects of tribe culture, as in the customs of a tribe. When you believe in Yeshua, you are adopting the custom of a non-Jewish tribe. By non-Jewish, I really mean it. It is inconceivable in Judaism for God to have a Son and so on and so forth. As for Judaism, if you believe in no god, you are just not observing your own tribe's custom.
I said that it is not your concern because it is so hard for gentiles to understand. If you haven't gotten it already, you never will.
nmi, Tanakh. The T is for Torah, N is for Nevi'im (Prophets), and the KH is for K'tuvim (Writings). It is the full Hebrew bible.
The easiest way of becoming not Jewish is converting to another religion. I hear Islam is popular now days. There's one catch, they'll have to cut your ... okay, I won't go there. You just made it too easy.
Haven't you received any formal Jewish education? I grew up on an extremely secular kibbutz and I know a lot of this stuff.
nmi, ever studied Tanakh?
By "good", I didn't mean righteous. I meant observant. I'll try to be clearer next time.
Mooser, please don't make it so easy.
A tribe in the religious sense, not the political sense.
nmi,
A Jew has a covenant with God even if he does not acknowledge it.
They don't have to read Tanakh, or pray, or even have a mezuzah. If they don't have any of those, it just means that they are ignorant of Jewish texts, unobservant, and assimilated. They can still be good people, they just won't be very good Jews.
Things all Jews have in common:
1. A covenant with God ... bla bla bla ... you know the story.
2. The biblical heritage and our responsibility to pass those stories to the next generation.
3. Fundamental Hebrew prayers.
4. Some customs such as the mezuzah.
In conclusion, Jews have responsibilities (mitzvot) established by God (but in reality it was just some old people from way back) and our interpretations of the Law. Since we all have free choice, we can choose to follow them or not.
Breaking one custom of the tribe does not change his identity as a member of the tribe. I can break kashrut a zillion times and still be considered a member of the tribe. I don't really view atheists as a tribe. They are just people who don't follow tradition, which is perfectly fine.
Are you Jewish? If not, whether Jews consider atheist Jews as members of the tribe is not your concern.
Yes, that is funny. Baruch Hashem.
Consensus and tradition. There is liberty for evolution hence the rise of rabbinical Judaism and different denominations.
For all of those who are having a hard time with my first comment, I'll give you another another way of looking at Jewish identity.
Let say there is a tribe. This tribe has ancient customs. These customs have religious tones. Tribe members are free to not follow the customs, but they are still considered members of the tribe. If a member of the tribe decides to follow another tribe's customs and adopts that tribes beliefs that are religious in nature, that member is no longer part of the original tribe. If a member of another tribe wants to join the original tribe mentioned, he has to follow the customs of his adopted tribe, study the tribe's traditions, and go through a ceremony to satisfy the tribe.
Don't bother asking me about if only one parent is of this tribe because I don't care.
Even if you are the descendant of Moses, if your family has been Christian for several generations, you still have to convert to Judaism under even the most liberal interpretation by any of the major denominations.
He knows he's not Jewish. He just wanted people to think he was.
@Kathleen, the majority of the US aid to Israel is in the form of military hardware. The hardware can only be bought from US defense companies.
Thankfully, very little if anything at all has gone Lieberman's way.
I don't know much about Theater J (so I don't know if I support it), but maybe we should lobby for some other center to pick it up? Perhaps Washington has a Muslim community center like the (planned?) controversial one in NYC, which was modeled after the JCC. Anyone know of such a center?
Shingo, have I ever called you any names? Have I shown you disrespect? If you treat all your political opponents like this, it is immature. You are only hurting your case by using names.
BTW, how many Jews are there in the Palestinian parliament? And please, Jewish converts to Islam don't count. How many Jews vote in Palestinian elections? If the Palestinians wanted to gain legitimacy for the one state solution, they should allow Israelis, Jew and Arab, to vote in the Palestinian territory for the general Palestinian elections. If they get a good turnout, it would delegitimize the Israeli government and then you'll convince me that the one state solution has merit.
There is no need to talk about ideology. Just look at history. If Zionism is racism and colonialism, so is Palestinian nationalism. They are in a struggle for power on the same land. Both can exist peacefully, but not at the current circumstances.
Shingo, how about talking/writing like an adult?
Just out of curiosity, are you Palestinian? Muslim? Israeli? If not, how many Palestinians and Muslims are you friends with?
Pamela, Darwish was a symbol of Palestinian nationalism, in direct conflict with Zionism.
I like some of Mahmoud Darwish's poems even though I'm Israeli. He can say a lot with very few words.
Technically, Israel did control a sliver of Jordan east of the river which it gave back to Jordan. Actually, my kibbutz now leases land (i.e. it pays the Jordanian government) from Jordan.
Recognized the State of Palestine in 1932? I'm sorry, but can you please cite me to an article or something. I tried google for a minute and only found out that two things were founded in 1932.
1. The Palestine Post, later renamed the Jerusalem Post
and 2. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Please provide detail to your claim.
Fascist? If I'm fascist, Israel is 80+% fascist. Amazing how it still has a functioning parliamentary democracy. You guys use that word willy nilly. It stopped having many in these forums.
So why haven't you given all those undocumented Latinos citizenship?
Chaos, no, I don't believe they can be unilaterally annexed.
Citizen, my statement about Palestinian nationalism is meant to serve as a support to the point that it wasn't simply a reactionary movement to Zionism, but a movement that rose because of a real Palestinian Arab identity like the real national identities found in many states across the globe.
Chaos, then why haven't the US given citizenship to all those Latinos yet?
Citizen, I'm not worried at all. I'm actually quite happy with the Arab Spring.
"Eh?" Is that Canadian?
Israel made peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan prior to the withdrawal of troops. That's the only way it is going to happen with the Palestinians too.
Chaos, when have I ever been against withdrawing settlements? That's a major part of the two state solution which I have been arguing for. I'm not PM Bibi, which I have never liked. I only have one vote, and Abbas refuses to sit with Bibi. Welcome to the real world.
Palestinian isn't a state. Palestinian right to a state is a legitimate cause recognized by international consensus. Israel never declared war on the State of Palestine. Regardless, it has been at war with countless Palestinian militias.
The Palestinians aren't being exterminated. In Israel proper and in the territories, their populations keep growing. If Israel is committing genocide, they are the worst at it in the history of the world.
Chaos, people think your perspective is illogical and contradictory. It only seems so black and white to you because you read Mondoweiss all day where you reinforce you perspective. If you were at any real debate setting with random people, your fanatical view of the issue would be rebutted at every turn.