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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
"My “warped” ideology is live and let live."
Oh you are talking about the settlers and the refugees right? Make the status quo permanent and brand it "peace". Charming.
"I posted the history of Hamas suicide bombing attacks."
That's not mass murder - unless on that scale you're willing to describe IDF action as genocide. Check out the numbers:
link to btselem.org
And I see HaMoked are reporting the first deportation under the new permit orders - a Gazan man living in the West Bank for 15 years, deported to Gaza and now permanently separated from his wife and child. Advice RW? How should he reconcile that?
link to hamoked.org.il
" both groups perceive themselves as fighting back, and they are both accurate."
No, they are not. Israel isn't fighting back in self-defence, it's fighting back to maintain the occupation. A rather large and important distinction. If Israel and Palestine make peace and Israel is attacked by Palestine, hey you betcha, that's self-defence. This is SO basic and elemental you shouldn't have to be told.
" Reconciliation in South Africa occurred with guns pointed, "
No, it didn't. Black South Africans were largely powerless so the world matched SA's guns with the gun of BDS. Apartheid collapsed, the reconciliation process followed and is not yet complete. The actual Truth and Reconciliation Commission began in 1995, the year after apartheid ended. Reconciliation and Oslo do not even belong in the same sentence.
You seem to be confusing reconciliation with a laying down of arms, or even just the thought of it. That's just a pre-condition.
"And Hamas has committed mass murder over a decade long period."
Care to put some numbers on that? The 20 or so deaths from rockets since 2001? The several hundred deaths from Hamas suicide attacks over more than a decade? How does that that stack up with the numbers from the Gaza Massacre, inflicted in three weeks?
"And, you can’t have reconciliation while someone is shelling civilian towns."
Once again - despite Judy's most excellent analysis the other day you still refuse to acknowledge the massive power imbalance and the historical colonial trajectory of the situation.
Are you aware that in the year following the Gaza Massacre not a single Israeli was killed by Gaza action of any sort, yet in the same period (until the death of the thai worker) 88 Gazans were killed by the IDF?
How does reconciliation occur when one side continues killing with gay abandon?
"reconciliation is the only justice." "That warring justice"
Your order of event is mixed up.
Reconciliation cannot be achieved with one party is pointing a gun at the other. It comes only after the weaponry has been discarded, anyway I doubt that is your intention.
Seems to me you are looking to have your conscience eased, for Israel to receive forgiveness without penance (the opposite of justice), a sweeping under the carpet of things that make you uncomfortable. Simultaneously you try to append victim status to the half-milllion illegal settlers - who have always knows their position was tenuous.
"You didn’t find it repetitious, slanted, no ability to inquire."
I didn't comment on the hearing, I suggested you are a little over eager in declaring it a failure just 72 hours after.
It reeks of "therefore you should all pack up and go home", a line yonira is also pushing on the caterpillar lockdown article.
"The hearing was not particularly effective."
See my comment above RE: the dismissal seven years ago of significance of Rachel Corrie's murder.
You are making proclamations about things you can't possibly know.
I recall an article about Rachel Corrie's death, written perhaps just 3 or 4 months after the event, and practically crowing that she had been all but forgotten. I hope the author has been paying attention.
You are hereby informed of our threats.
Truman:
"The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders — actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats — disturbed and annoyed me."
If you think the anti-apartheid / BDS movement is so ineffective why are you here?
"when my zionist spirit starts to dim, i come on here."
Sounds like you have a conscience fighting to be heard yonira.
Perhaps it's time to examine why your zionist spirit is dimming? Wouldn't it be nice to love Israel because of all the good and true things it embodies, rather than in defiance of those who criticise? Blind patriotism is dangerous, for both Israel and the Palestinians.
"Your language is still “crimes”, as in punishment."
Heaven forbid [war] criminals should actually be punished.
You propose a self-admnistered system of law. Was that the reason Israel killed 255 policemen in Gaza?
Judy - work that anger :-)
I followed your conversation the other day on sexual/physical abuse as a model for understanding the I/P conflict, makes sense. On that track the Israeli obsession with incitement is obscene. It's the abuser saying "when you stop resisting, i'll stop abusing", what an abomination.
The oft-repeated argument that Israel acts in self-defence in the Occupied Territories has to be demolished.
" Therefore, sanctions should be targeted at the US."
If that's your viewpoint then I encourage you to organise a campaign eee, it may even be something that would be supported here. Let us know.
oh eee - It's irrelevant if Israelis trust Palestinians or not. It's an ideological position not the outcome of anything the Palestinians have ever said or done. Don't you know? Most people have come to lose trust in Israel.
Hey, small countries aren't nuclear, they don't have the 4th largest military and they aren't backed up by the US. Palestine is a small.
No doubt on here counselling everybody they musn't condemn and if only the IDF and Israel were more loved the painful but necessary bombing could stop.
Because of this hundreds of thousands or millions of people will hear the words "Israeli Apartheid" for the first time.. marvellous.
thankgodimatheist has already mentioned Australia was settled two centuries ago, 1788 in fact.
So eee fvck you.
You need to know Israel is not a modern country like Australia, it is a barbaric, inhumane and deeply racist country with a crumbling veneer of liberal democratic values. I mean the country, not the people, and especially not those working to bring about positive change.
If there's a comparison to be made it is to an Australia of ages past: an era of terra nullius (the empty land), of total domination over the indigenous people – because we had weapons and they did not, because we as Europeans, knew better – and they did not, an era of herded people – forced to relocate to reservations or at other time simply massacred, an era of "the problem of aborigines", and of being unable to recognise that the problem was in fact within ourselves.
Can you imagine Netanyahu in the Knesset offering an apology to the Palestinians?
Apology to the Stolen Generations of Australia : Part 1 [of 3]
link to youtube.com
"Report: Israel shuts off water to Jordan Valley farms"
Obviously all the Palestinians fault, if their knowledge of zionist history were better - if they loved Israel more, Israel wouldn't be forced to do these things.
thankgodimatheist - I've seen a lot of that including deletions of whole sections not complimentary to Israel and then multiple smaller edits that for example increase jewish casualties and decrease Palestinian deaths - purity of arms by wiki edit. I recall once seeing a table on wiki claiming that 20 Israelis had been killed by suicide bombing in 2009.
If you are confident editing wiki (not hard to learn) you should make corrections/revert vandalism, or at least alert page watchers to the problem by writing on the articles talk page. All the older edits of wiki pages are viewable on the history tab for you reference.
I see this as a real problem, wiki has a pretty good reputation for impartiality, younger people use it a LOT, believe it, and that is being distorted by these edits. It's a battleground - which is why so many I/P articles are marked "disputed" with editing frozen.
On Ron Lauder's letter I agree with him on a single point:
"appeasement does not work"
Thus, I'm glad to see Obama ever so softly putting his foot down with Israel. I hope he's genuine and intends to see this through.
Can't read the Wiesel letter just yet - I'm already at my daily quota for lies I can intake without feeling the need punch something.
What makes them terrorists UNIX?
>> (in contrast to Fatah) I meant
Kinda odd UNIX how you have reported me on my answers before I answered but anyway... i see it's been a tough day for you.
1. I've no objection to settlers staying in the OPTs if they wish to become Palestinian citizens -that's the Palestinian position also. Of course if they refuse to register for P citizenship then they're illegal aliens and need to be deported.
2,. Hamas are more than the al-Qassam Brigades they're also a socio-political organisation that are reportedly uncorruyptable (in contrast to Hamas) and good at providing education, medical, social services etc. So no. Like the pre-state jewish terrorist organisations in 1948 the militant groups should be rolled into a Palestinian state army. And I *wish* Hamas had more advanced arms in order they could actually target their weapons instead of just firing in the general direction. Wouldn't that please you too? That way when civilians were killed we'd know it was deliberate, as we do with israel.
3. No. The holy sites need to be administered by an international party. No more excavations under, no more tunnels, and no more threats/attempts to blow up Al-Aqsa.
Since you've already reported me ~ what next? Trolls come and they go. They aren't steadfast UNIX.
"The BDS movement denies the Jews the right to self determination and to their own state."
How exactly?
Reported UNIX also - the "all Palestinians = terrorists" stereotype is every bit as bad as anti-semitism, even uglier when it practised by those same people so sensitive about anti-semitism.
"Maybe the Arabs in Israel would Abandon terrorism first?"
I wasn't aware that there were "arabs" in Israel committing terrorism, please expand on this UNIX.
" from there on everything went pear-shaped. Boy I had no idea the objection to this word would go so venonously far"
Tazi, a disproportionate Israeli response, how unusual..
Oops, "Chicago" - yes, I'm a little short on sleep.
Chicage Hearing just finished, very good - it's 8.30AM in Australia, what a way to start the day :-)
"4) Zionism is the most legitimate movement in the world and will continue to grow apace."
What's your metric UNIX?
oh boo hoo UNIX!
1. the presence of settlers in the OPTs is criminal, their departure is the corrective.
2. no number of bought politicians can overcome the fact that the OPTs are occupied and EJ annexation is illegal
3. Israel is holding ~300 Palestinians without charge or trial and you have your knickers in a knot over a spy. What part of "sentenced to life" did you miss? At least the prick got a trial.
4. "terrorism" is almost always meaningless word used by colonials to put down resistance. end of story.
5. Law, law, law - what's your problem with the rule of law? Is it time for Israel to withdraw from the UN?
"And you insist on “driving off” Jews from Hebron"
You're taking as if the settlers in Hebron have some legal right to be there. They don't and their departure isn't ethnic cleansing.
Anyway Fayyad has said he's fine with jews staying in Palestine state if they wish to become Palestinian citizens - and that they'd be treated "no worse" than Palestinian citizens of Israel - a smart idea to tie the two issues together, though I think in execution Palestine has to lead by example not emulate Israel's toxic policies.
Were AIPAC's spying activities fully exposed Congress would be forced to back away from them.
PS who can tell me what happened during 1982/3, settler population levelled then grew very fast for a while after, was it something to do with Lebanon war?
20 years of faux-reconciliation efforts:
link to en.wikipedia.org
The best response to the rockets was the Egyptian brokered cease-fire which was working very well in late '08, nobody on either side killed for 3 or 4 months, no Hamas rockets and in October just 1 rocket and 1 mortar from splinter groups. Israel blew the cease-fire away on Nov 4 because they didn't want to end the blockade, and needed to take revenge on somebody, anybody, after performing so dismally in Lebanon 2 years earlier. What a bunch of COWARDS for choosing a largely civilian population as victims.
Why is it that Israel are so threatened by Hamas demonstrated ability to be moderate?
Judy, agreed.
First prioirty: stop the crime and protect the victim. Healing can only come later - to suggest healing can occur while the crime is still being actively perpetrated is absurd.
In effect RW advocates doing nothing. He advocates *we* do nothing. Dissent is not permitted either inside or outside Palestine for him.
Chaos ~ it's time to start ignoring RW.
If he were interested in bringing about positive change in Israel he'd be on a zionist or settler forum page trying to soften those hardened hearts – but he isn't.
His purpose is to interrupt and prevent meaningful dialogue. It's classic passive/aggressive behaviour, I imagine coming from his frustration that the Palestinian story is at last being told.
Don't waste your energy.
"you could restrain yourself from the ugliest comments"
Meanwhile in the name of "peace", you argue for the permanent severing of a people from their homeland.
"But unlike the Arabs, Israel did not prohibit Muslim prayer."
So all Palestinians can visit Al Aqsa for prayer?
"Of course we’ve had this discussion before, about RW"
..what was the outcome? I'm guessing to not boycott.
"The six day war is more catchy."
I know kids are programmed for war in Israel but I somehow doubt that "catchy" was Rabin's intention in naming it so. Six Days for six days of war, the blockade of Gaza ..oops, I mean the Straits were just a prelude.
"That is how ALL countries treat international law. Of course, you want to use it to bludgeon Israel. Irrational hatred anyone?"
You're being ridiculous. The call for Israel to follow the law could be replaced with a call for countries to mount an armed attack on Israel killing all the jews. In my mind that would be an example of irrational hatred.
Really, if Israel is so determined to ignore international law then perhaps it is time to withdraw from the UN altogether. Bear in mind, Nasrallah has promised to redraw boundaries if Israel attacks Lebanon again, so you'll have no recourse on lost territory. Would that please you?
"The Arabs started the 67 war and lost. "
Yet it is known as the Six Day War, not the Twenty One Day War.
"Fascism in practice, pretending to be progressive."
Oh please, calm yourself Senator McCarthy.
You've pleaded for "understanding", "dialogue", "healing" and whatever other motherhood statements you can muster - but what do you actually propose to bring about the end of the occupation, when Israel is armed to the teeth by gifted US weapons, with little or no desire for change. I'm not asking for vague statements but an articulation of concrete actions proposed by the Witty Plan..
In other words - just chuck a tantrum and employ some emotional blackmail.
"What a racist remark, that AIPAC is employing bribery. "
AIPAC is a race? Really this *is* news.
"1. I don’t believe that Jews have a right to settle beyond the green line. I thought I stated that clearly many times. I just don’t believe that civilians should be forcefully removed as the remedy."
You propose a re-branding of the status-quo as "health", "kindness", "healing", "getting people on their feet", "justice", "recognise the wrongs" - nothing more.
More motherhood statements.
" it would be a very generous and helpful gesture if the future Palestinian government allows any Jewish Israeli living in the presently occupied territories to become a citizen of the Palestinian state, "
This is Salam Fayyad's stated position.
"That’s one of the things that make debating with you so frustrating. "
Tree - you're assuming that is RW's intention. I disagree - he's a troll with a the sole objective of disrupting real debate.
In other words my enemies enemy is my friend, a sure recipe for disaster - just see 50 years of US foreign policy in the middle east.
It's cowardly to refuse to take a moral stance on what Israel did and does to Gaza.
Did you know Goldstone actually refused to head the mission if it didn't also include an investigation of Hamas' action?
"when Goldstone is asked how Israel should have accomplished its military objectives"
What were the objectives again? Is it necessary to frame everything Israel does in terms of the military? Israel had a functioning cease-fire with Hamas and threw it away on a vanity war - attacking Gaza to make up for the demonstrated incompetence of the IDF in Lebanon in 2006. That, and the unwillingness of Israel to ease the blockade.
UNIX - What a load of rubbish.
There will,it will be renamed Knongress.
Israel haters rule #3: When a vote does not go your way use personal attacks against the people voting.
Absolutely. Will Smelko (the UC prez who overturned to vote with his veto) is a tool - on the wrong side of history.
Hey what are the other rules?
MHughes - you've reminded me of this web extra from a Democracy Now interview NF did in March.
link to democracynow.org
I agree, despite occasional outbursts he's very humane in his position, and damn funny on occasion. At about 28 minutes he speaks about Goldstone and his trepidation on going to Gaza - touching.
"The critical line was made by Sumud yesterday, and you reiterated here “I don’t care what Zionists experience is”.
Why the quotation marks? You are a liar. I said here (comment ~ 154 & 156):
link to mondoweiss.net
...I'm not interested is string quartets instead of justice for Palestine.
You confirm what I wrote on the same thread (~ 210), you are a troll - intent on injecting white noise and distracting others to derail dialogue.
"The IOF trains on a daily basis on Palestinians"
Jeff Halper of ICAHD agrees with you, and then some"
"The Global Pacification Industry"
link to youtube.com
Thereby marginalising AIPAC and the Knongress.
I guess Todd, just be glad the comparison is historical not current. It is used because it encapsulates that issue, and cuts through so much media spin. It resonates with Americans.
On the white phosphorous, you are aware that *you* and your forefathers probably paid for it with your tax dollars? The spent shells were marked "Made in USA", and there is the billions of dollars of arms gifted to Israel annually.
" The Palestinians stand alone"
That's why Israel is having kittens about Apartheid Week/BDS and Goldstone right?
No, you are not hearing accurately.
You missed the "if/when". If it is to be deployed as a weapon - and it is, then I am not interested. That is not a denial of the other, it is a refusal to participate in the intended deception. There are Israelis who I admire greatly: those working to bring about the end of the occupation: the human-rights activists and demonstrators, the journalists, the bloggers, the soldiers who say "no", the lawyers and so on. By their actions they do much more to combat anti-semitism than some obsolete blowhard like Abe Foxman.
I do anticipate a victory, that of [trumpets] justice over tyranny. It isn't a new struggle, nor is it unjust. My goal most broadly is the resolution of the I/P conflict, based on a common framework of international law. I believe this is the only way deliver justice will be delivered to the Palestinians, without it there will be no peace.
I post here I because I find the content / discussion generally interesting, more engaging than many of the other online fora. As an aside I'm an atheist of christian heritage (ie not a lot of contact with judaism), so I appreciate hearing some jewish voices and perspectives.
I've responded elsewhere in this thread as to what I see are your motivations. A text search for "motherhood" will get you there.
So you condemn Geert Wilders "Fitna?"
Everyone knows the swiss are a bunch of chocolate-making terrorists. The first terrorist bombs all had clockwork movements, a Switzerland speciality. And they actively supported Nazis during the war. There are already atheists in Switzerland paving the way. They've been welcomed with open arms [naturally] because we come in peace.
" Instead, let’s try getting the two state solution off the ground. With violence you will achieve nothing."
It's been off the ground for 3 decades. All nations are waiting for the navel-gazing to stop in Israel and "tough jew" antics to stop.
“The suitcase or the coffin?”
I don't think it was posed as a question Taxi!
Actually Donald that was me that initially asked RW his reasons for posting at MW, at this article:
link to mondoweiss.net
I asked because, his presence is rather nebulous at MW. He issues motherhood statements and mouths word of peace, which I have come to believe are not genuine. He questions uncontroversial facts eg. telling me he didn't believe the UN refer to the 22% as the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Over time I've come to see his role is to interrupt, not contribute. The depth of discussion suffers in his presence. It is a white noise disturbance. I see no "daylight" between the Israeli obsession with incitement and his peculiar position that it is in fact peace activists who are preventing a resolution of the I/P conflict. Resistance of any sort is not permitted within Palestine, or without apparently.
On this thread he's been a little vicious, exposing his islamaphobia. It's ugly if at least a little more real than the faux-dove posing.
"Survivor reveals 1945 plan to kill 6 million Germans"
Shocking article. I note Ben-Gurion's objections weren't to do with wanting to murder 6 million people, only that it might complicate his plans for Israel.
"I don’t understand the anger, the hatred to the point willing personal violence, of those that have never been affected negatively by Israelis and/or Jews."
Who and where are the Palestinians who have not been effected negatively by Israel?
It's based on a 2006 book by Robert Satloff.
link to amazon.com
The Washington Post review @ Amazon is worth a read for the mental gymnastics:
"Robert Satloff is a man with a mission. He believes that if contemporary Arabs knew about Arabs who rescued Jews during the Holocaust, they would reject the Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism that are now so prevalent in the Arab/Muslim world. This book tells of his quest to track down the history of those Arabs' deeds."
My thoughts on reading that were along the lines of "some of Israel's muslim-hating fans would benefit from a read also". Perfect timing: in the final third the reviewer sticks the knife in both muslims and author Satloff. The range of opinions in the muslim Middle East on the holocaust ranges "from crude Holocaust celebration (in which Hitler is a hero) to Holocaust denial." Anybody who has left their armchair will see the fiction in that. The author is "naive" for even trying, it is impossible to counter "irrational hatred" and the telling of history "will not change the minds of those whose views of history are rooted in unreasoning bigotry", though the history is real and denies that unreasoning bigotry.
Yes, thoughtful, in fact I agree with your sentiments mostly, and am happy to hear that you are "alive" on the issue of I/P and open to changing your views upon new information. I can also see where Mooser's rage is coming from.
Where I'd question your post wondering jew, is that you frame the Nakba as an historical event when it is not, it is very much alive today, for all Palestinians. Not white hot as in 1948, but still: the refugees and their descendants are denied their rights, those in the West Bank/East Jerusalem are under constant threat by the occupation and it's nefarious apparatus, Gaza is under siege and unable to even begin recovering from the Massacre, and the "lucky" Palestinians who are Israelis citizens are a third class, discriminated against in law and beyond, and who by definition are outsiders in the jewish state - which happens to also be their historic homeland.
To your statement "I don’t know how we will fix these facts of history". Do you really not know? Do you want to fix these facts, or is Mooser correct? History can't be changed, duh, but the Nakba must end. Are you working to bring that about?
On pride. I'll tell you, while I know there's a lot Israel has to be proud of, I'm not interested in hearing *anything* about it, not when it is deployed as a weapon. Israel is a colonial power, the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and everywhere else with hasbara.It's one kind of colonialism designed to conceal another. There'll be plenty of time for string quartets, after.
"If ’sabotage’ is your game –"
I think you've got it there Taxi. RW = white noise.
"Israel is much more justified in the ethnical cleansing it did than the US. "
Ethnic cleansing cannot be justified, anywhere, at any time.
Your morals are seriously fucked up.
" proud of the WORK that created the Jewish state"
That's an ugly euphemism.
link to en.wikipedia.org
"This list of Arab towns and villages that were depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus gathers about 500 items. Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed."
link to en.wikipedia.org
"Massacres
According to the sources, between 20 and 70 massacres occurred during the 1948 War.
The main massacres and attacks against Jewish civilians were: the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre where 39 Jews were killed by rioters in the aftermath of an Irgun attack, and the Kfar Etzion massacre where around 120-150 surrendering defenders were killed by Arab villagers, with the possible participation of a few legionnaires.[2][3] The Hadassah medical convoy attack is also reported as a massacre because it included the mass killing of unarmed medical personnel.[2]
On the other side, "Yishuv troops probably murdered some 800 civilians and prisoners of war".[2] Most of these killings and massacres occurred as villages were overrun and captured during the Second phase of the Civil War, Operation Dani, Operation Hiram and Operation Yoav.[2] The "worst cases" were the Saliha massacre with 70 to 80 killed, the Deir Yassin massacre with around 100, Lydda massacre with around 250, the Al-Dawayima massacre with hundreds and the Abu Shusha massacre with 70.[4]
According to Morris the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war[2] but Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place. He calculates that 455 people were killed at al-Dawayima including 170 women and children.[5]
Controversy surrounds the assertion that a massacre by Israelis took place at al-Tantura.[2]
Bombing attacks
At the beginning of the civil war, the Jewish militias organized several bombing attacks against cilivans and military Arab targets. On 4 January 1948, the Lehi detonated a lorry bomb against the headquarters of the paramilitary Najjada located in Jaffa's Town Hall, killing 15 Arabs and injuring 80.[6] During the night between 5 and 6 January, at Jerusalem, the Haganah bombed the Christian owned Semiramis Hotel that had been reported to hide Arab militiamen, killing 24 people including the Spanish Consul, and which may have included Iraqi irregulars (Arab militia) t.[7] (Morris also writes that the Semiramis Hotel bombing was an example of the Haganah "inadvertently employ[ing] terror".[8]) The next day, Irgun members in a stolen police van rolled a barrel bomb[9] into a large group of civilians who were waiting for a bus by the Jaffa Gate, killing around 16.[10] Another Irgun bomb went off in the Ramla market on February 18, killing 7 residents and injuring 45.[11][12] On 28 February, the Palmah organised a bombing attack against a garage at Haifa, killing 30 people.[13]
On 22 February 1948, supporters of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni organised, with the help of British deserters, three attacks against the Jewish community in Jerusalem. Using car bombs aimed at the headquarters of the Palestine Post, the Ben Yehuda Street market and the backyard of the Jewish Agency's offices, they killed 22, 53 and 13 Jewish people respectively.[14][15]
During the first months of 1948, the railway between Cairo and Haifa was often targeted. On 31 March, it was mined near Binyamina, a Jewish settlement in the neighborhood of Caesarea, killing 40 persons and wounding 60. The casualties were all civilians, mostly Arabs. Although there were some soldiers on the train, none were injured. The Palestine Post and the New York Times attributed the attack to Lehi.[
On your proposition that the expulsion of 3/4 million Palestinians was the outcome of " the intentional strategy of very few" - if that were so then why would Israel not permit return of the refugees after the dust had settled?
Nakba was and *is* government policy.
Or as I like to call them Chu ~ The Sisters of Samaria
Chu ~ I've had trouble getting links referring to that site posted also.
You might try on an unmoderated article.
Also you might try this link which goes back to the thread in December when they were exposed:
link to huffingtonpost.com
It spells out how TLG and StC were connected to the blog. After this they disappeared for a month for whatever reason
And see my comment below, "Matt" StC has been granted deleting privileges. I'm forming a complaint letter to HP now. It's bullshit.
You also? Well done, it's a badge of honour to be up the nose of these twits.
After having ignored the site for a few months I went back and noticed a serious case of mission creep - what opened with a banner proclaiming some noble fight against hate on the HP rapidly became selectively focused on anti-semitism only; now it's just a place where they whine about arguments they can't counter in a venue with little to no traffic.
Ha ha!
Thanks Chu. Let's connect some dots:
link to thebrothersofjudea.blogspot.com
"Oh yeah, my HP account's been granted comment deleting powers."
Posted by one of the Sisters of Samaria a few days ago.
Chaos ~ I think that's exactly what happens. The arguments that are made about all muslims wanting to kill all jews etc are so over the top and easily disprovable that... in the end they look bad.
Was MemoryAlpha banned or did you stop? I understand your anger about HP - irresponsible reporting makes my blood boil. I was travelling o'seas during the Gaza Massacre so thankfully saw very little of it.
Chaos ~ I've been trying to catch you for ages, you mentioned a while ago your time on HP as MemoryAlpha (which was before I started posting, damn) and two of the hasbara gang TLG and StC - do you know about their blog?
link to thebrothersofjudea.blogspot.com
They're response to people presenting logical verifiable arguments criticising Israel is to accuse everybody of anti-semitism, try to get their profiles suspended and retreat into an echo-chamber blog where nobody cares to respond to their silliness.
And:
CNN on the issue, with the 2nd commentator in damage-control mode:
link to youtube.com
The odious Mark Regev:
link to youtube.com
The current argument from the hasbara gang on HuffPo is that it's STILL all Hamas' fault because 1. they were smuggling weapons 2. Gilad negotiations went nowhere 3. the IDF claim of the tunnel being built to capture new Gilads. It's fingers-in-ears if you ask why Israel didn't ease the blockade as promised.
That gets through all the time. I just post the links to the wiki article on the Gaza Massacre referencing the Israeli MFA issued report, which was authored by Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center.
"Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until November 4 (when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded"),
link to en.wikipedia.org
And if I'm feeling playful this smack-down interview where the Israeli shill resorts to the "their main goal is to kill women and children" argument:
link to youtube.com
"I suppose they are trying to present a semblance of balance..." I meant
Chaos - I wasn't on HuffPo at that time but post regularly, almost always with supporting links and the majority of my posts get through. The moderation seems to have eased a little in the past few months.
I object to some of the articles there (David Harris' are the most vile) I suppose theare trying to present a semblance which is inappropriate given the actual situation in I/P. The hasbara gang get done over in the comments. And every time an I/P article becomes a main lead there is a flood of anti-Israel comments from average HP'ers. The almost universal sentiment is "I've had enough of Israel", "Why are we funding these thugs", "Why are American soldiers dying for these thugs". I believe Obama has some capital to spend here when the time is right, pushing from the "US interests under threat in the ME angle", and also from an AIPAC espionage angle. Nothing would de-claw them quicker than a national security crisis related to AIPAC, and what Republican could be seen to support AIPAC spies over the US Government?
It all comes back to what Obama wants. He was useless on I/P in the first year of his term but the settlement & Petraeus things suggest perhaps something else is brewing. I'm an optimist :-)
Plenty of strong Palestinian narrative in the comments, including many people objecting to the title on the grounds it ignored the long history of non-violent protest in Palestine, also mentions of the recent efforts to stifle said protest by Israel, which Mr. Bronner wouldn't touch.
link to huffingtonpost.com
Superb work Antony - inspirational.
"Course, no-one listens to the radio."
I think John Howard would've begged to differ. Just imagine if that constituency were to hear Antony's program.
Do you know why it isn't on Amazon? I would be surprised if it were a censorship issue since his others are there. Anyway it should be on amazon - the increased exposure could only help.
eee - Sorry but you are a few cards short of a deck.
That statement is obviously written tongue in cheek, as the author maks abundantly clear in the article that follows.
"almost always true"
LOL not good enough.
"MEMRI was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, and another Israeli Meyrav Wurmser."
link to en.wikipedia.org
Hmm do ya think they have an agenda..?
yonira:
The sources on the translation (you should look before hands hit keyboard) are the Guardian and CNN. That you are resorting to hysteria kinda gives away your wonky position.
That's a question for RW ~ What are your reasons for posting on MW?
What are your reasons for posting on MW?
"when an Israeli child watches on national television the search for body parts from a school bus explosion, that is quite imprinting as well."
At least Israeli parents have the ability to turn their television off.
Palestinian parents have no such luxury. There is no turning off the Nakba. There is no turning off the military occupation or the attacks by the settlers. There is no turning off the siege of Gaza - though Hamas tried with the 2008 cease fire (which Israel broke) - and there is no erasing Israel's Sharpeville, the Gaza Massacre.
link to bit.ly
You think that because that's what MEMRI, a partisan organisation, wants you to think - and be honest: that's what you want to think also.
".. the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the segment, by attributing a sentence said by Farfour, ("I'll shoot"), to the child, and ignoring the child's statement ("I'm going to draw a picture").
Whitaker further criticized MEMRI's translation. He and others commented that a statement uttered by the same child, ("We're going to [or want to] resist"), had been given an unduly aggressive interpretation by MEMRI as ("We want to fight"). Also, where MEMRI translated the girl as saying the highly controversial remark ("We will annihilate the Jews"), Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, "The Jews [will] shoot us" or "The Jews are killing us." Other sources have also pointed out that MEMRI's translation "I will commit martyrdom" should more accurately have been "I'll become a martyr" – a passive statement rather than an active/aggressive threat."
link to en.wikipedia.org
Again, how about getting the hell out of the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
I don't accept your answer from before "It will happen. Negotiation takes time." It's been 43 years, and 62 years for the '48 refugees.
The occupation started before the stones. The occupation started before the rockets. The occupation started before the suicide bombings. The occupation started before the intifadas. The occupation started before the hijackings.
Enough with the "it will happen" bullshit. Just go.