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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
The question is – do you really think the West actually wants ME countries developing into liberal societies? I don't see any evidence they do - in fact I see the opposite. They want stability, not an empowered population that may demand their leaders turn away from the US, for example.
Western countries seem to have lost the ability, if they ever had it, of long range strategic planning. It's always the short to medium term goal of increasing power and then dealing with an endless stream of unintended consequences.
I think that's a good way to put it.
I can't really give you a sensible answer to that – it's an issue for arabs and muslims to work out themselves, and they will, in time.
One of the things that kept coming up in Egypt and Tunisia was young people talking about wanting to live in a democracy of their own making – relevant to and derived from their own culture, and not just import a western model. It's early days for that yet, and the US is trying hard to destroy the arab spring, so we will see.
To speculate, I think there will be a sort of gay liberation movement in the ME but not for some time yet. As aiman points out (to paraphrase): 'first things first, basic issues need to be sorted out first'. Whatever happens though, it will be better if it is a solution worked out by the locals for the locals so it fits their culture(s).
I understand. I know English, disgracefully bad emergency French which I can only assemble using English grammar (very embarrassing to use around native French speakers), and just a few words of Arabic. Your English seems quite good actually.
I think it would be good if people here could remember not everyone has English as a first language. Better to argue about ideas than get hung up on grammar or formatting...
and to come back onto topic, your question:
The answer is: there is a direct connection.
Homosexuality as conceptualised in the West only came into existence in the mid-1800s when it was classified by the medical professionals at the time as an illness. In the west being gay is part of an overall identity: this person is gay, this person is straight, this person bi etc with everyone falling somewhere on the scale between 100% straight and 100% gay.
In the ME though, traditionally 'gay' is not about identity but merely what role you would play during sex. So if you are the passive partner (bottom) you are thought of as gay, but if you are the active partner (top) then you are not thought of as gay. Some western gays find this extremely frustrating because they can only understand 'gay' through their understanding of what that is – they may have sex or even a relationship with a man who claims to not be gay...
I haven't read Joseph Massad's book amman refers to but I know about it, and have read a few others I can refer you to if you're interested. And I'm a gay man who has lived in the ME, so this is not just theory...
Homosexuality has a long history in the ME, and there are numerous accounts from the 1800s and before of European traveling throughout the region and being shocked at what they encountered.
Arab/muslim culture places an extremely high value on respect for privacy and with regards to this issue, the attitude was and is "what happens behind closed doors stays behind closed doors". Of course there is more conservatism now and attitudes vary across country and region.
But broadly, the swing towards more conservatism on this issue in the ME is a direct reaction to imported western morals – which the west has now outgrown – and a reaction to western liberalism which superseded the previous western homophobia.
Oleg if you want to quote text it's very easy to do using basic html. I really don't think its important if you use slashes, brackets or whatever, (its comments on a blog, not a school essay), html = neatest though.
If you look in the comment window you should see a list of html tags that you can use. Basic ones to get started are the bold, italic and blockquote commands.
You put the appropriate tag at the beginning of the text and another at the end of the text you want to quote, bold or make italic etc.
Let's say you want to make some text bold. Your name for example: write it as {b}OlegR{/b} – except instead of the fancy brackets I used, substitute the angle brackets, the same sort as those used in the tag list below.
See after your name I turned off the html tag with the /b command? Whatever tag you turn on, the turn-off command is always the forward slash symbol followed by the tag. So you turn on italics with {i} and turn it off with {/i}, and for block quotes you turn on with {blockquote} and off with {/blockquote}, and as before using the angle brackets. (If I used them in text your browser will interpret them as tags and make them invisible).
Examples:
OlegR
OlegR
So Israel lets straights and gays commit war crimes?
Big whoop!
Winnica – I've got a brilliant idea: RTFA before you make a comment.
Where does the article say the boars have been trained to attack? It doesn't.
If you have a large enough area that can be enclosed it is perfectly possible for the boars to be living in that area wild – and then be captured and released, or be herded from that area by settlers onto Palestinian agricultural land. Such behaviour would be consistent with other things settlers have done such as torching and cutting down olives trees, flooding agricultural land with sewage, destroying/polluting wells and ripping up irrigation infrastructure.
I suppose you deny that also?
If you have enclosed agricultural land and there are boars in there wreaking havoc is it more sensible to assume they have flown in or that they were put in there? You tell me.
If you'd take the 30 seconds to read the very short article you'd also see:
The Applied Research Institute - Jerusalem says that while Israel claims it cannot control the wild boar population in the area, and the purposeful release of pigs cannot be confirmed, Israel's separation wall has pushed the animals to search for new habitats.
Winnica, why attack the messenger?
Maan News' article, contained in Kate's news roundup, is titled "Farmers: Wild boars damage crops near Salfit". From the article:
Farmers told Ma'an the boars damaged apricot trees, wheat crops and seedlings. They said the boars were released onto their land by settlers.
Residents and local officials in the area have for several years complained that settlers release pigs, which have caused injuries and destroy land in the rural communities.
Are you disputing Maan? Or just having a dig at Kate to satisfy your little self.
Why are jewish settlers keeping pigs anyway?
That's great to hear Amar.
I stopped posting on Huff Post in disgust over their nonsense censorship of comments; fact based comments, often supported with links, not a shred of ad hominem – and still not being approved. Also - they had a few regular users running an external campaign to get people opposed to Israel booted from HP, and HP did nothing about it despite such a campaign violating their TOS.
It's logical that people will become better and better informed about Israel as time passes, and good on all those people who didn't leave HP.
Leave the Palestinians to be, and we will leave the zionists to be.
Notice how I did that – corrected your dumbass made up accusation of anti-semitism? The terrible thing is I think many zionists actually want there to be anti-semitism, that would let their conscience off the hook.
Well, now you know, you ain't getting any [anti-semitism].
I wish you many guilty sleepiness nights over the atrocities Israel has and continues to visit upon Palestinians, and your part in it.
No, that would be the the US taxpayer that Israel scabs money from – $3 billion a year in weapons plus a whole bunch of extras in the hundreds of millions.
That, but also they need to terrorise the kids at an early age to permanently traumatise them – and plant the seeds of hatred.
Israel is threatened by peace, not war.
For Israel, the second intifadah were good times, because they could spin it their way. You'll notice the sad lot pushing hasbara still refer to suicide bombings despite it being some years since they stopped...
There's anti-semitism in the world for exactly the same reasons there are other sorts of discrimination – because people are stupid, scared, uneducated, intellectually lazy, vindictive etc.
It isn't related to what jews do or don't do.
Obviously the Pollard business is a disgrace and should be fought tooth and nail, but it doesn't justify anti-semitism. You probably don't mean to say it does, but since you asked the question :-)
Later today I'm off today to a talk by Abigail Abarbanel, an Israeli-born psychotherapist who lived in Australia for some years and is now in Scotland. She's the editor of a new book titled Beyond Tribal Loyalties: Personal Stories of Jewish Peace Activists. Sounds great, I hope they're selling copies today.
Anyway last night I listened again to an interview she did with Hazel Kahan in 2010 where she analysed Israel as if it were one of there patients. Very interesting:
link to web.me.com
Phil mentions Beinart being the victim of tall poppy syndrome but I think it's something else. Tall poppies are cut down just for being successful – the problem is the sort of success Beinart is having.
In her interview Abarbanel and Kahan talk about Murray Bowen's concept of Differentiation of Self. Abarbanel says Israelis society is one that is very poorly differentiated and I guess this would also apply to zionists in general; among poorly differentiated people there is much more 'group think'. More on Bowen's concept here:
Differentiation of Self
Families and other social groups tremendously affect how people think, feel, and act, but individuals vary in their susceptibility to a "group think" and groups vary in the amount of pressure they exert for conformity. These differences between individuals and between groups reflect differences in people's levels of differentiation of self. The less developed a person's "self," the more impact others have on his functioning and the more he tries to control, actively or passively, the functioning of others. The basic building blocks of a "self" are inborn, but an individual's family relationships during childhood and adolescence primarily determine how much "self" he develops. Once established, the level of "self" rarely changes unless a person makes a structured and long-term effort to change it.
People with a poorly differentiated "self" depend so heavily on the acceptance and approval of others that either they quickly adjust what they think, say, and do to please others or they dogmatically proclaim what others should be like and pressure them to conform. Bullies depend on approval and acceptance as much as chameleons, but bullies push others to agree with them rather than their agreeing with others. Disagreement threatens a bully as much as it threatens a chameleon. An extreme rebel is a poorly differentiated person too, but he pretends to be a "self" by routinely opposing the positions of others.
For anyone in Melbourne here are this afternoons talk details:
link to australiansforpalestine.net
And she is doing an Australian book tour to most capital cities, more details at AFP, "Events in your state" section on page right, scroll down.
The operative phrase is "live and let live", Ranjit.
I refuse to live as a second class citizen. I want and deserve full equality and that includes the choice of marrying the partner of my choice, regardless of gender.
As long as it christians want to perpetuate that inequality, they will have a fight on their hands.
Listen Brian, if you want to talk about hysteria go have a chat with B'nai Brith Canada.
They seem to have elected themselves 'Thought Police'.
In support of The Only Democracy In The Middle East™ they expect to be able to outlaw words and phrases.
It's arrogant, fascist – and utterly ridiculous.
Israeli Apartheid does NOT get a pass with queers because they don't discriminate against their local LGBT population.
I love it.
Whenever zionist goons try do stuff like this it always blows up in their face and Israel gets much more bad press than they would have otherwise.
Israeli Apartheid!
Israeli Apartheid!
Israeli Apartheid!
Arrest me!
Now Obama will give Palestinians in Gaza an Iron Dome system right? Israeli terrorists are bombing kindergartens. War crimes.
The official's question was "are you jewish?", not "are you Palestinian?"
In working out what type of help he could give her he's going to ask the relevant questions first.
I thought it sounded exactly like that also Koshiro!
In particular it was the florid use of motherhood statements, a favourite Witty tactic...
Otherwise if was just plain old lies (hasbara) and emotional blackmail.
Rabbi Gottleib's response letter was great.
Different arrests at different times.
Yesterday's article Israelis arrest Palestinian theater’s artistic director at 3 a.m. has been updated:
In addition, Palestinian security forces, vaunted for their “cooperation” and “coordination” with Israeli security, have twice arrested Freedom Theatre co-founder Zakaria Zubeidi. At this moment, Zubeidi has been held without charge in a Jericho prison for the last three weeks.
Check out the photo of arrestee Nabil Al Raee – reminds me of a young Abbie Hoffman!
I wouldn't say that.
The piece that Phil links to on the AIPAC crowd nursing its wounds still says that Pascrell's voting record is consistently with AIPAC - with exceptions like signing the letter on Gaza.
That's the insidious nature of that organisation – back all the horses and they always have a winner.
Democracy loses.
The hope in this situation is the American Arab community organising better, and possibly Rothman's supporters being turned off by his islamophobia.
Pessimistic MB!
I agree with you about the racism in Israeli society but I'm not sure that can't be changed.
I agree with you also Israel being the leading world power. As long as the US has it's back, that is the case. But, US power is in decline, and I have to believe there would be *some* red line that would cause the US to withdraw their support for Israel. Can it really be that American politicians are so spineless and beholden to the Israel lobby that they can start exterminating Palestinians en masse and Obama will merely say "that isn't helpful"...?
I hope not.
Without the US' veto in the Security Council sanctions will quickly be imposed on Israel, hopefully starting with an arms embargo as Amnesty International called for in 2009 after the bloodbath in Gaza.
That Israeli hubris will quickly evaporate when their leaders are charged with war crimes and they are under sanctions. For all their bluff and bluster, I don't believe Israelis have what it takes to endure long periods as a pariah nation under sanctions.
A serious lack of sumud!
Either their behaviour will modify, or they will nuke all of the Middle East and Europe in childish spite. To be honest I'm not sure which is more likely, and that scares me.
There is zero ambiguity about the fact that the US shouldn't have been in Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place – so it's not a matter of laws being inclusive or open to interpretation.
Also it's not a sensible comparison to compare Iraq or Afghanistan to any more by Israel and Palestine to become a single state.
The US should stop treating Israel like a special case though, and stop shielding Israel from the consequences of their actions by using the UN SC veto. Some harsh sanctions on Israel and a few of their leaders being charged with war crimes at the Hague would serve to bring Israelis to their sense fairly quickly.
I like American policy on Israel to assisted suicide. Unless America shakes off the Israel lobby and changes it's policy, – soon – I can't see anything to stop Israel going over the cliff entirely in an orgy of killing. Israelis killing Palestinians, that is.
One and two state speculation aside, here is what I think will actually happen:
Israel will continue to expand settlements and steal ever more Palestinians resources. They will continue on as they have since 2005 – Gaza is entirely isolated from the West Bank, periodically they will launch attacks on Gaza and probably Lebanon.
More than anything else Israel wants the status quo. They don't want to move towards one or two states, and they do understand they just can't get away with another mass ethnic cleansing as they did in 1947/8/9 and 1967. They want things to stay as they are.
As Jeff Halper describes it, the conflict is essentially over and Israel seems to have won, they have successfully "warehoused" Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The settlers move effortlessly between Israel proper and the settlements, and Palestine's natural resources are transferred to Israel on a massive scale (primarily water) with absolutely NO resistance from Palestinians (at least the Sinai bedu are regularly bombing Egypt's gas pipeline Egypt). Militant resistance by Palestinians has been pacified.
But the status quo is not achievable, there are 2 0r maybe 3 'black swan' events on the horizon which will at some point coalesce and overwhelm Israel, disrupting the status quo.
The first is the BDS Movement. It's a slow burning campaign that will for 90% of it's life be in 'education mode' – informing the public and stoking debate. Boycott and Divest will be first, then the largest victories will come at the end – state and UN Sanctions on Israel.
The second is the increasing radicalisation of zionists in Israel and the West Bank. At some point a rebel faction in the IDF (more settlers than ever before) may break away from the government and start a mass killing campaign. There are already "death to arabs" rallies occurring regularly. The Israelis government will do little to stop this. This will accelerate the sanctions aspect of BDS; it will force many countries to re-assess their support of Israel. Alternately the
The third factor which may bring on mass violence from either a rebel IDF group or the IDF at the Knesset's command, is the arab spring coming to Palestine in the form a mass non-violent political uprising. This one is a maybe because like Algerians, Palestinians are tired. Their will be a 3rd intifada, and it will be like the 1st in spirit, but I think this will come later rather than sooner. It will be a final push when BDS has done it's work (that's us - get to it!) and Israel and the US are isolated on the world stage.
I guess none of those things are true black swan events, in that nobody could anticipate them, but I think they qualify as the changes and re-alignments they bring on will be very rapid.
I hate to say it, because I'd like to think it doesn't have to be that way, but the only way I see I/P being resolved is as a result of a great violence perpetrated by Israelis, which will rapidly shatter and supersede the consensus Norman talks about. Israel is a runaway train that I don't think can be stopped. AIPAC and co. have assured Israel's ongoing support by the US. The crash is inevitable, and zionism will becomes a very dirty word.
So in the meantime we should continue with BDS as a tool to educate and to increase pressure on Israel. BDS will not be the decisive factor – Israel has demonstrated again and again the ability to shoot itself in the foot on the global stage – but it counts, people need to know about the great injustices in I/P so that when the mass killing starts they can quickly mobilise to bring pressure on their own governments to condemn and sanction Israel.
Any talk of a one or state solution at this point by the BDS Movement (i.e. that they should adopt such a platform) is premature and stupid. It's a trap designed to shift attention away from the real conditions Israel is imposing on Palestinians.
I don't think NF is promoting this strategy for nefarious reasons, I don't think this for a minute even, but discussing 1 or 2 states instead of Palestinian rights only serves to de-focus the movement.
America made the same mistake in Iraq and Afghanistan that it is making in Israel: supporting one faction over another with no regard to the legality or morality of their actions, rather than advocating for principles and the rule of law.
Taking a long view, on the very eve of America being eclipsed by China and India, America is doing everything it can to destroy all that it is good that it ever stood for. American hubris, like Israels, will be the downfall.
So you approve of rockets coming from Gaza?
I don't know what Begin quote you're looking at but I've got:
The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.
That is not ambiguous or out of context, at all.
Do it Fredblogs – be honest with yourself.
I don't have a copy of Peled's book Winnica but I'm sure someone here does.
link to amazon.com
I'd be very surprised if it wasn't footnoted.
Peled is but one of many sources on Israel's aggressive behaviour in 1967. But really, no source is required.
Israel attacked Egypt first. End. of. story.
Fredblogs you are being ridiculous.
You don't know better that Rabin, Begin, Peled and others quoted above.
Go and have a think about why a whole lot of your peers, countrymen & -women and co-religionists are lying to you about 1967. It's called hasbara and you don't seem to get that it is directed as much at those inside as outside Israel.
No tree I hadn't seen it yet, thanks.
Pappe is in the zone!
That's the first time I've actually heard of the Shakham Plan, sounds very believable. Haven't watched it yet but Pappe's talk referenced in the article ("The False Paradigm of Parity and Partition: Revisiting 1967") is up on YT in two parts. Part 1:
link to youtube.com
Also I see he has a new book out soon, 'The Bureaucracy of Evil: The History of the Israeli Occupation':
link to amazon.com
He certainly doesn't mince words with his titles! I wonder if Shakham Plan details will be in there...
Again Fredblogs – are you disputing the meeting transcript which Miko Peled talks about?
There's much more to this than just his father's opinion (though Peled Sr. is quoted below):
Wikipedia / Origins of the Six-Day War / Removal of U.N. peacekeepers from Egypt
Thanks tree.
Oh tree, snap!
Your comment on the LA Times piece was approved while I wrote mine.
Miko Peled (Israeli General Matti Peled's son) currently has an op-ed in the LA Times which – along with all the other statements by Israel's leaders in 1967 – completely discredits any hasbara about 1967 being a defensive war by Israel.
Many believe now, as they believed then, that Israel was forced to initiate a preemptive strike in 1967 because it faced an existential threat from Arab armies that were ready — and intending — to destroy it. As it happens, my father, Gen. Matti Peled, who was the Israel Defense Forces' chief of logistics at the time, was one of the few who knew that was not so. In an article published six years later in the Israeli newspaper Maariv, he wrote of Egypt's president, who commanded the biggest of the Arab armies: "I was surprised that Nasser decided to place his troops so close to our border because this allowed us to strike and destroy them at any time we wished to do so, and there was not a single knowledgeable person who did not see that. From a military standpoint, it was not the IDF that was in danger when the Egyptian army amassed troops on the Israeli border, but the Egyptian army." In interviews over the years, other generals who served at that time confirmed this, including Ariel Sharon and Ezer Weitzman.
In 1967, as today, the two power centers in Israel were the IDF high command and the Cabinet. On June 2, 1967, the two groups met at IDF headquarters. The military hosts greeted the generally cautious and dovish prime minister, Levi Eshkol, with such a level of belligerence that the meeting was later commonly called "the Generals' Coup."
The transcripts of that meeting, which I found in the Israeli army archives, reveal that the generals made it clear to Eshkol that the Egyptians would need 18 months to two years before they would be ready for a full-scale war, and therefore this was the time for a preemptive strike. My father told Eshkol: "Nasser is advancing an ill-prepared army because he is counting on the Cabinet being hesitant. Your hesitation is working in his advantage." The prime minister parried this criticism, saying, "The Cabinet must also think of the wives and mothers who will become bereaved."
Throughout the meeting, there was no mention of a threat but rather of an "opportunity" that was there, to be seized.
Are you disputing the meeting transcript Fredblogs?
h/t to Antony Loewenstein who picked up the LA Times article on his site.
Not everything changed with Johnson. It wasn't until Nixon in 1972 that the US started to use the UN SC veto to shield Israel.
After the athlete killings in Munich Israel launched air strikes on refugee camps in Syria and Lebanon and even sent ground troops into southern Lebanon. They killed as many as 300 Palestinian refugees, as revenge.
Not an 'eye for an eye', but '30 eyes for an eye'.
The SC drew up a resolution which senior Bush (UN Ambassador at the time) vetoed for the first time.
I'm wondering if Green's book covers those events in 1972, anyone know? I'm interested to know more about the behind the scenes manoeuvring around that first SC veto.
Great Henry, thank you.
I'm glad someone local can follow up.
You're right of course that Geller isn't the problem, but she is so despicable that any pressure she brings should be immediately dismissed – and if the responsible refers to her as a legitimate source of information source they need to be told a few truths about just what a toxic nut job Geller is.
I'm interested to know who the midnight meeting was with – which unnamed zionist organisation? Why haven't they been named?
Really disappointing to see this evil witch get her way and SHAME on Alameda County for being so spineless.
For those not familiar with Geller, she's a jewish zionist that has adopted nazi propaganda techniques and is busy trying to organise another shoa, this time for muslims.
Lauren Lyster from RT took her to task during the Park51 brouhaha (which Geller was largely responsible for) and did a fine job:
Pamela Geller: 'Hitler Inspired by Islam'
Loonwatch have declared her 'The Looniest Blogger Ever', this is the best place to start:
Pamela Geller: The Looniest Blogger Ever
The Loonwatch posts are actually pretty funny – until you remember they are written about a real person that some people are crazy enough to listen to.
What else – oh yes, Geller and her cohort Robert Spencer have a big fan in Anders Brevik, the Norweigan crusader who killed scores of Norweigan youth nearly a year ago on Utoya:
Southern Poverty Law Center: Christian Crusader
SPLC have an in-depth profile on her also:
link to splcenter.org
One has to ask what pressure was brought to bear and by whom. Why did Alameda County cancel this at the 11th hour? Are they so ignorant and stupid actually they paid attention to Geller?
Alameda Palestinians ~ don't give up. It's a lovely proclamation – and if not this year then next year. Let it be a rallying point, an opportunity to educate your neighbours and peers (like BDS – a lose is still a win because everybody learns a little more about Palestine), and an example to all that Palestinians are not safe from attacks by zionists anywhere in the world today.
Not arrested >>> abducted.
Oh Brian, you really are fresh out of hasbara school aren't you.
I agree with you, but we may part ways on what constitutes integrity. For example some of these Israelis may look at Israel's behaviour and decide that behaviour is illegal and immoral, and to maintain their own personal integrity they must speak out. I think it is OK for artists and others to create works supporting BDS – it is non-violent protest after all. Using state funding to buy weapons for Palestinian militants is something I would think is crossing the line.
Someone else with an attitude 'my country right or wrong' will think that acting with integrity is to not criticise their country and not to endorse BDS even if they wanted to see change.
I fall into the first camp.
And I agree, state funding is best avoided altogether.
Leander you can probably spoof a US IP address by using a free VPN service like Hotspot Shield. The bandwidth isn't great though, maybe not enough for video.
'5 Broken Cameras' is doing the rounds of festivals so it might be on where you are some time soon...
Don't you mean funded by Israeli *taxpayers* money?
Do you think it is appropriate for governments to be interfering with the content of creative works? Was that a spectacular success in USSR or what?
If Israel really is a democracy then people should be free to express discontent and critics their governments for war crimes etc.
Bassem Abu Rahmah can be seen in this short film made by his friends a year after he was killed by the IDF:
link to maxajl.com
Really heartbreaking to think of a life like this extinguished.
Links please, BrianEsker, to support your claim.
Behold the Tough Jew - chicken murderers.
Hi Kathleen,
I think what you're talking about are called National Security Letters. They allow government agencies access to your communications and contain a gag order saying the service provider can't disclose they're given away your information.
See also Wikileak's Jacob Applebaum (he found out there were NSLs that had been used against him) on Democracy Now from April being interviewed with NSA whistleblower William Binney, who claims that the NSA are lying, and that they have copies of and are [illegally] accessing most emails ever sent to, from and via America:
Democracy Now: Whistleblower: The NSA is Lying–U.S. Government Has Copies of Most of Your Emails
That clip is part of a multi-part series DN did on state surveillance, well worth watching the full interview and the different parts.
Another defeat for BDS, right ziobots?
Well done ASU, 35 years after the Sharpeville Massacre to divest from SA, but only 7 years after the 2005 BDS call to divest from Israel.
I thought I'd quote myself then answer by own question :-)
Having read over the rest of the comments Hostage, a few times you refer to the Palestinians needing to start pursing Israel in the ICC. I don't think anybody involved in BDS would disagree with you on the urgency of that. So there is work to be done and the consensus position may yet yield results.
But, isn't it frustrating that Abbas doesn't just get moving on the ICC? People are turning away from the two state solution because they can't see any light at the end of that tunnel. Maybe you & NF can because you have a better grasp on the legal aspects.
Annie I agree with you on all counts. His contribution to debate on I/P is immense, and I also learnt an awful lot from him. Definitely a hero, and it pains me to hear him refer to BDS as a cult.
I'd love to see a DN special with Norman Finkelstein and Omar Barghouti interviewed together. It would be so interesting, and hopefully a step forward for all.
eljay ~ I don't really disagree or agree with full RoR.
The best mechanism that I can think of is that legitimacy of UN194 is fully acknowledged by Israel, and Palestinians refugees then face a decision. They can either:
1. return to Israel proper.
2. receive financial compensation from Israel (who also makes a financial contribution to the new state of Palestine for investment in infrastructure), and return to Palestine instead.
That way Israel has some input on how many Palestinians take up their RoR and Palestinians can choose what they would prefer rather than having their rights bargained away by the likes of the PA.
If Israel doesn't want many Palestinians to return to Israel, they will 'bid high' and offer a large amount of money for refugees to resettle in Palestine. If they don't care they will offer a small amount and a larger number of Palestinians will return to Israel.
That's the only workable solution I can think of. It will cost Israel a lot of money – and so it should. They'll scab the money from the US anyway – and as Israel's chief enabler, there is justice in that also.
Ok Hostage I'll rephrase that: there are multiple outcomes possible if you say you are for resolving the issue on the basis of international law.
Maybe I should have said there is a contradiction which Norman hasn't addressed.
NF has one interpretation – he is right of course that it is a consensus position – and it is based on 1967 lines. If I understand it correctly he thinks compensation is a more likely outcome rather than actual RoR. He even implies his own opinions differ from that. Fair enough. The point is NF has selected what he believes is the most achievable outcome, because there is consensus on multiple fronts.
There are a growing number of people who, unlike NF, think the 2 state solution is practically impossible. Those people are probably more likely to support full right of return and eventually a single state with equal rights for all. Wanting full RoR is a valid position supported by UN194 – a minority of militants who won't "live in peace" aside.
Two lines of thought invoking international law, with different outcomes.
Norman declares supporting anything outside consensus position os historically criminal. That's a bit melodramatic. In 1975 there was no consensus for a 2 state solution. Times change.
Practically, I don't think it matters a whit the amount of consensus that exists for the two state solution – for 60+ years israel has been working to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian state, and they're not about to roll over now. The only power that could possibly force that is the US by withdrawing the SC veto and how likely do you think that is? Not very likely.
I've seen NF refer to viability of evacuating the settlements; and that if the IDF exited the West Bank the settlements would quickly empty of settlers. True, I'm sure – but who is going force the IDF to exit the West Bank? Nobody will and nobody can.
So I just can't agree with NF when he says we must support the two state solution. It's a trap designed by zionists to buy more time so they can further tighten their grip on the OPTs.
I'd like Norman to start exploring some practical alternatives to the two state solution. I'd also like to him to have a think about why he objects so strongly to the BDS Movement not adopting a 1 or 2 state platform. As I wrote above there are a lot of practical reasons to avoid that altogether.
Personally, I don't think BDS being a rights-based movement is limiting it's success. I may be wrong, but people understand the concept of BDS because of South Africa. Civil rights for Palestinians if it comes to that, because of Jim Crow and 50s/60s America. They get it. Don't underestimate average people. The consensus position has failed to produce results, hasn't it?
*And I think describing BDS as a cult is bizarre. I don't know where that's coming from. It disturbs me a bit. There is more going on here than I think NF is disclosing.
Hasbara.
And the man to explain it to you is none other than Norman Finkelstein himself:
Palestinian Right of Return - Norman Finkelstein
Of course it does. Your precious state is built on massive theft of land and property. Reparations will cost, a lot.
5:25 Norman says:
There is a contradiction in what Norman says and I'd be interested to hear his response.
He says "international law" and to him that means 1967 borders, but another person says "international law" and that means full implementation of UN194 – Right of Return, for all Palestinian refugees from Israel, to Israel. That will likely result in a Palestinian majority in Israel, and in the long run unification of Israel and Palestine into a single state.
Both are valid positions. And both positions can claim – as Norman does – that it's not their personal position, merely they want to see international law implemented.
I've seen Norman's eloquent take on RoR, that it is an uncontroversial and undeniable right that can be settled by full RoR or by financial or other types of settlements, well worth a watch if you haven't seen it:
Palestinian Right of Return - Norman Finkelstein
I agree, and have no ideological conviction for one- or two-states. I think a Palestinian state is now a practical impossibility however. But, precisely because of Norman's clip above I see BDS' goals can be achieved in either one- or two-states.
The stumbling block I have is that Norman seems to have adopted the "no partner for peace" hasbara line when talking about the BDS Movement. It's hardly as if Israel is just dying to empty the settlements and go back to Israel, but that is how it is framed; as if one-state BDS proponents are turning away from a golden opportunity.
But there is no golden opportunity; Israel is as intransigent as ever, even more so during Obama's presidency. The whole one-state/two-state argument is extremely messy, a mine-field I think is best avoided.
BDS is designed by Palestinians as a unifying movement for all Palestinians, hence the three aims as Adam lists above for each Palestinian population group:
1. those in the OPTs
2. Palestinian Israelis
3. Palestinian refugees
If BDS Movement were to adopt a single or two-state solution, consensus about it among Palestinians would collapse. It's not only how BDS presents to the outside world – Norman's focus – but the empowering and unifying aspect of it for Palestinians. For example, I believe BDS has played a role in Palestinians deciding to move from militant to non-militant resistance.
It also trancends factional politics, and as a non-violent grass-roots movement is impervious to geo-political manoeuvring. Think about the unsuccessful Fatah/Israel/US/Egypt coup attempt against Hamas after the elections in 2006/7, and the damage it inflicted on Palestinian unity. There's no way those players can interfere with the BDS Movement similarly, but if BDS were to adopt a one- to two-state platform the disunity that would create is ripe for exploitation. Best avoided.
Phil ~ you are suggestible, and that openness is admirable, but chew on this: Norman turns to you after watching 5 Broken Cameras and says:
I think that is a rather disingenuous way of framing those advocating a one-state solution. One state BDS'ers are not talking about "the suitcase or the coffin", as per Algeria.
How would you have responded if Norman has said:
One State is sinister – or not – depending on how you frame it. If the state is called neither "Israel" or "Palestine" but something neutral like "Jerusalem" it can become a desirable goal for both Israelis and Palestinians interested in harmonious co-existence. Neither side is victorious, neither side loses – except the extremists, who lose equally.
It also needs to be clarified if he means occupied Palestine or mandate Palestine.
If Israelis would stop bombing Gaza every other day and end the illegal siege I'm sure that would win some hearts and minds among Palestinians...
Really Oleg, you expect love from the same people you are murdering, starving and generally making their lives as unpleasant as possible?
Go see a shrink.
No pity for the guards in the concentration camp proudzionist777, no.
As for who started it, Israel's military occupation is achieved by violence, therefore Israel started it. It's irrelevant if the militant fired the first bullet – he is acting in self defence.
Palestinians have the right to defend themselves militarily from Israel's aggressions.
What exactly are you disputing OlegR?
Interesting article by Silverstein.
He makes an excellent point in the Germany has practically given Israel the capability to perpetuate a holocaust on neighbouring arab states – and this is exactly how Germany would be criticised if it ever came to that.
He doesn't touch on the Samson Option however, and Martin Kreveld's statement that Israel has all Europe's capitals in it's gunsights. It is possible Germany has just given Israel the capability to flatten Berlin. And Paris. And Rome. And Moscow. And...
Israel is so 'innovative' it has superseded basic logic:
Netanyahu: we are a government who respects the rule of law and strengthening the settlements - there is no contradiction between the 2
Livni as exposed by AJ's Palestine Papers: I was the Minister of Justice. I am a lawyer… But I am against law - international law in particular. Law in general.
There hasn't been a suicide bombing since 2008.
Has that got you down? Tearing up while reminiscing about the good old days when you could talk about rabbis picking up limbs?
Why can'y you break out of your little cult of negativity hophmi? You just look stupid and whiny – and worst of all, like you actually long for more suicide bombings, for hasbara purposes.
You want song and dance just for the sake of it?
Ahmed's report is an informative on-the-ground update on ongoing events in Egypt. No comment required as I see it.
Yishai is himself an African man. He family came from Tunisia.
Rabbi Moshe Shafir is a crazy racist toad if he expects rational people to accept that junk.
Your words, not mine.
It wasn't a revolution. It was a civil war, instigated by Fatah, Israel, US and Mubarak's Egypt – all because they are opposed to Palestinian democracy.
See Vanity Fair's 2008 expose, The Gaza Bombshell .
Here we go again - the "Israel has no partners for peace" schtick, right?
Except Netanyhau is on the record gloating that he sabotaged Oslo in his first round as PM, and the Arab Peace Initiative has been on the table for more than 10 years now – tick, tick, tick; still no response from Israel on that.
Backtracking to the 80s, the 1981 Saudi Fahd Plan and 1982 Arab League Fez Initiative essentially proposed the same thing as the API. After Israel invaded Lebanon and killed about 20,000 Lebanese civilians the Arab League withdrew the Fez Initiative – no partner for peace you see...
ritzl ~ sumud!
I agree :-)
That's a great piece joec, a highlight being the closing paragraph:
Reading Palestinian diaries, you feel that sumud is also a homely concept. What matters is not only continuing to protect the physical well-being of the family but equally the small, grounded things of daily life - the coffee, the welcoming, the mutual relations between neighbours, the caring for a mother-in-law. In fact, in his first diary entitled The Third Way (1982), Shehadeh wrote about his understanding of sumud as a third way between subordination to oppression on the one hand and being imprisoned by the impulse towards violence on the other. At its foundation, sumud is about keeping one’s humanity and soul, and it is therefore an eminently educational concept as well. It is about the core narrative and identity of the Palestinian people - the ability to challenge injustice and oppression, to fight for rights, but also to laugh, to see hope, and even to keep a belief in humanity that still prevails in Palestinian life, despite the impossible circumstances - where nothing less than the existence of a beautiful community is at stake.
This is one of the reasons I chose 'sumud' as a handle – it is noble and dignified. Zionists have put so much effort into demonising Palestinians, and sumud is a counter to that.
I'd like to see sumud become as widely known in relation to Palestinians as the word apartheid was in relation to black South Africans.
Well that will always be pure speculation because the reality is quite different.
The Arab States entered the Palestinian partition in mid-May 1948 to protect Palestinians *after* zionists forces have already ethnically cleansed somewhere between 250 and 400,000 Palestinians from inside Israel AND areas inside the Palestinian partition.
The Arab states were undertaking a defensive action. It was the zionists who were acting offensively. In fact, the bulk of Israel's casualties during the 1947/8/9 war occurred while undertaking offensive action outside the UN181 borders that Israel supposedly accepted.
See Israelis historian Simha Flapan's 1987 book The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, pages 198/199 [my emphasis]:
A little more than three weeks after the Israelis had declared their independence and the arab states had launched their invasion in order to "throttle the newborn state at birth", the Israeli army went over to offensive action and remained in that position to the end.
The Jewish casualty figures offer graphic ilustration of the shift. According to data assembled by Yochai Sela of Tel Aviv University, the number of Jewish deaths in the war was 5,708, including 4,558 soldiers. Among civilians, most casualties resulted from bombing and artillery fire, the majority in Jerusalem. Among the military, 1,345 were killed during the civil war, November 30,1947, to May 15, 1948; the remaining 3,213 were lost between May 15,1948 and March 10, 1949. More Israeli soldiers died while attacking than while defending against attacks by Palestinians and Arab armies. The number of Israelis killed within the borders of the state designated by the UN was 1,581, the number killed in the areas outside these borders was 2,759*. In a final breakdown, 984 Israelis were killed defending Jewish settlements, 1,212 died while attacking Arab settlements.
A part of the mythology of the War of Independence asserts that most of the Jewish casualties were suffered in the defense of the Yishuv. The figures however tell a different story. They show that more than 50% of Jewish casualties were suffered in offensive actions and only 21% in defensive actions. Furthermore, 60% of all Jewish casualties occurred in actions outside the borders of the Jewish state.
FYI Events in 1947/8/9 have been more than covered within the last day in comments on this article:
link to mondoweiss.net
I never read your original comment but can easily spot multiple lies in this one. Remember you're talking with adults now, not schoolchildren you can brainwash.
In word only, not deed. If zionists accepted the UN Partition plan they would not have invaded and occupied any territory outside the UN-specified borders. They would not have ethnically cleansed vast numbers of Palestinians from within the Israeli partition. They would not have committed looting on a national scale. They would not have spent the next few years inventing bogus legal tricks to steal Palestinian refugees land.
Which arab armies invaded Israel and when? Bet you can't tell me, because it was zionist forces that invaded the Palestinian partition, not the other way around.
The arab state armies joined the conflict mid-May 1948, by which time there were already 250-400,000 Palestinian refugees – they had been ethnically cleansed by the zionist forces, and it is Israel that "bares" responsibility for that.
Funny how the Arab League notified the UN of their intention to enter the conflict, and the UN accepted their notice without issuing any condemning resolution. The Arab League's intention was to come to the aid of Palestinians, and in the case of Abdullah of Jordan – to take control of the West Bank.
By what magical means were they join going to be "wiping the new Jewish state off the map" when the arab state armies were in the Palestinian partition only? Voodoo muslim mind control? Anti-semitic flying carpets abducting jews? Genies in bottles zapping zionists?
Really dismal giladg. Everything you say is easily disprovable by pointing to Israeli sources.
Cyber-terrorism.
Israel really is working hard to make the world despise it.
So it was a quiet week then. Normally the peace-loving Israelis kill about 3 Palestinians a week.
Great! Always happy to see mainstream media trying to keep up with blogs.
Great advice Pamela.
CloakAndDagger - glad you mentioned the US UN SC veto - that is the critical issue as I see it; when that ends Israel, will feel the full force of international law and will be forced to change it's behaviour.
If I were American I would make ending the veto the centrepiece of a campaign.
I hope so seafood - zionist have totally abused the Magen David; recall the hideous graffiti that can be seen in Hebron with the Star of David alongside statements like "death to arabs" and "gas the arabs". Recall that there are at least two instances of IDF soldiers carving up fields in Gaza to create gigantic SoD's that can be seen via satellite. Recall footnote 394 from the UN FF Mission to Gaza [Goldstone] Report [my emphasis]:
Graffiti left by Israeli soldiers in the house of Talal al-Samouni, which were photographed by the Mission, included (a) in Hebrew, under the Star of David: “The Jewish people are alive” and, above a capital “T” [referring to the army (Tsahal)], “This [the letter T] was written with blood”; (b) on a drawing of a grave, in English and Arabic, “Arabs 1948-2008 ”; and (c) in English: “You can run but you can not hide”, “Die you all”, “ 1 is down, 999,999 to go”, “Arabs need to die” and “Make war not peace”.
Beyond belief.
Those are the most extreme that come to mind, but Israel's behaviour in general make it bad enough that non-zionist jews should object strongly to Israel claiming the SoD as a symbol.
Well, "vibrant" is one way of describing it, which I would contest.
Since half the people Israel rules are not permitted to even vote I'd call it an apartheid ethnocracy.
The attacks on NGOs, whistleblowers and journalists (e.g. Anat Kamm & Uri Blau), this border event, and Israel denying entry to people like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky, are all signs that Israel's democracy is rapidly transforming into fascism.
So much for Israel being a vibrant democracy.
More like an violent paranoid state descending into fascism.
Correction: it is not just jews who will encounter difficulties entering ME countries if they have Israelis visa stamps in their passport, it is anybody. I'm Australian, from a christian background, and worked for a period in UAE. I recall being specifically told that if we visited Israel to get the visa stamp on a separate piece of paper outside our passport.
Your actual religion is irrelevant; whether you have visited Israel or not IS relevant, and that is part of the arab states boycott of Israel.
Further, though my family are christian I have a jewish sounding (Old Testament) name and I never encountered any difficulties anywhere in the ME. At most I was asked once or twice by work colleagues if I was jewish.
Obedient little Fredblogs, who will, after Israel visits it's Final Solution on Palestinians be saying "we didn't know about what they were doing, honest we didn't".
I agree 100% with people lying to Israel's border control police, because I disagree 100% with Israel's well known policy of denying people entry if they openly state they are visiting the West Bank or Gaza.
If Israel didn't have a whole swag of unjustifiable and punitive laws for Palestinians and their supporters people wouldn't have to lie. If Israel would just f*ck off back to Israel and leave Palestinians to themselves people wouldn't have to lie.
Since you're so hung up on following the law why don't your apply the same standards to Israel's activities – they are violation of dozens of Security Council resolutions, the settlers are all illegal as is the theft of occupied Palestine's natural resources.
YoungMassJew ~ from a regular: welcome!
Never too late to join a movement.
What you write about MJ Rosenberg is probably true, in fact I think it is an underlying concern of people like Phil Weiss too – and many others. I think reclaiming judaism from Israel's attempt to co-opt it is also a large factor. I also see a simple concern among people to speak out and work against wrongs being done. Then, it is a human issue, rather than a tribal jewish one.
Anyway, jump in!
That's it Shmuel. Oren took the bait hook line and sinker.
Let's deport some Palestinian refugees back to their home country.
Israel the Some Jewish State™
+1 American.
I don't know what prompted Daniel Rich to mention MJR but he's not responsible for Israel's attack on the USS Liberty nor the US coverup of it.
We need more MJs! >> Decent people who might start off on the wrong track, see the error of their ways and change. I'm sure there are other people who have left AIPAC in disgust, but not many who do a full 180 and now actively fight against it. Credit where credit is due.
That doesn't cover it either, since the US actually pays the john, Israel. More than $3 billion a year.
Not even an ounce of dignity in what the US government does for Israel.
“Jews of any race are welcome in Israel” unless they're black, unless they're Norman Finkelstein.
Yes Mooser. You really needs to pull up your socks.
Fredblogs is here day and night helping us all understand why apartheid is OK when jews do it, with a range of sources that is breathtaking in both depth and diversity. He makes his arguments succinctly, economically and never lords his superiority over anyone.
And you can't even be bothered to spend 1 minutes at wiki checking if Madonna is a stage or given name! Next time do your research please – you make us anti-semites all look bad.
LOL Mooser.
I'm all for Yigal Palmor's 'Made in Israel' definition:
Made in Israel
white phosphorus gaza
Made in Israel
settlers burn mosque
Made in Israel
israeli checkpoints
Made in Israel
israeli apartheid
Made in Israel
uprooted olive trees palestine
Made in Israel
idf kills children
Made in Israel
home demolitions palestine
Made in Israel
hebron settlers
Made in Israel
tear gas idf
Made in Israel
gaza siege
Since Palmor describes Made in Israel as "the authority that has supervised the product" I will also do this:
Made in Israel
netanyahu congress ovations
Thanks Rae (& Annie), sounds like a wonderful night.
I'm going to buy a copy of the book on Joseph. I was commenting on another thread just before about how the idea of a single state has become mainstream in just the last few years.
The Israeli 'New Historians' demolished a lot of Israel's founding myths between the 1980s and now. The secret history of Israel & Palestine – the Nakba – is getting to be more widely understood; it feels like Joseph's time has arrived. We need to hear all about people like him because the next few years are going to be all about mapping out viable alternatives to the current impasse. Exploring the history of dissenters in Israel has to be part of that.
All
optionsideas on the table...In the mind of the zionist 6 million Palestinians would have to be gassed before they would permit a comparison to nazis - and even then people would say "aine breira" > Hebrew for "no choice", ie. we had no choice because... because... because... [insert some lame excuse].
Jeff Halper writes in his book 'An Israeli in Palestine' about how Israelis use that term a lot to justify things. If you listen for it you will hear Israelis say it regularly, it is a way of absolving themselves of responsibility.
Avrum Burg in his 2009 interview on Charlie Rose (I think it was this one anyway) talks about how Israelis that he knew justified the bloodbath in Gaza in 2008/2009 by saying "there were no gas chambers", as if everything but the gas chambers is acceptable. It's *so* warped.
I go back to the 1930s and think about pre-war nazi Germany and the path Israel is on. I refer to Gregory Stanton's "8 Stages of Genocide":
link to en.wikipedia.org
The progress in Israel is steady, the direction is obvious. I think the danger is very real.
Abdeen ~ based on your account of A.O Scott's review it sounds like he was pushing some bog standard hasbara [to paraphrase]:
"eternal conflict"
"complicated"
...and so on and so on. In a word: bullshit.
It is not intractable. It is not eternal. It is not complicated. All those statements are designed to demoralise people, to make them mentally reject the issue of I/P as something "too hard".
Don't trust the NYT. Just don't!
3,378 signatures now and it's all over twitter. Michael Moore has a million+ followers and is asking people to sign it...
The most popular open petition only has 101,000 signatures. I can see this easily exceeding that.
Prescient Philip.
I've said before Obama is not a President but an elected self-appointed King. Granting himself the right to have American citizens killed with absolutely no judicial oversight or due process has taken America way back in time - to it's absolute monarchy British roots.
When he feels like it Obama says "off with his head", and the person is killed. In other words: fuck the Declaration of Independence, fuck the constitution, fuck the bill of rights – all of it worthless, now a pathetic charade.
I'm not even American and it outrages me.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Ugh, creepy Winnica.
Hitler spent the 30s destroying German civil society, in preparation for events in the 1940s.
The way it should be, right?
Right?
I recommend watching the BBC clip on the article titled:
Palestinians see 'sharp increase' in demolitions
The piece closes with reference to the ever-slimming chances of a two-state outcome and places the blame firmly on Israel. They are responsible for demolishing Palestinian homes and businesses, they are building thousands and thousands of settlements, and they are in violation of international law – and the whole world agrees about this.
Two years ago very few people were talking seriously about a single state outcome, and now the idea is mainstream.
Israel can't keep up, and twits like Yigal Palmor can't combat a simple video showing Palestinian structures being demolished for obviously punitive reasons.
Things are changing fast, despite appearances.
French & Saunders have a *slight* obsession with Madonna and have been using her a comedy fodder for 20 years. This is one of the best, complete with a dig at the faddishness of Kabbala:
French & Saunders - English Roses
And a later Madonna skit, also hilarious if you like F & S:
French & Saunders - Still Alive (Cardiff) - Madonna
correction: El Arish, not Rafah!
Where did you read this Citizen?
The EU and a few other countries funded an international airport in Gaza about a decade ago which Israel promptly bombed to smithereens:
Yasser Arafat International Airport
Checking Palestine Airlines wiki page I see they are operating out of Rafah, rather than Gaza... Still, it's so nice to see an airliner flying Palestine's colours:
link to en.wikipedia.org