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Mubarak says the road to Washington runs through Tel Aviv

Israel/Palestine
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Earlier this week, David Kirkpatrick reported in The New York Times on secret recordings made by a doctor of ousted Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak said he had to use the Israel lobby to keep the aid flowing from Washington.

The recordings suggest that Mr. Mubarak subscribes to some of the far-fetched conspiracy theories that are now commonly heard in Egypt, claiming collaboration among the United States, Israel and the Muslim Brotherhood. “Of course they’re in a deal with the Brotherhood, for Sinai,” Mr. Mubarak said of the Western powers in one recording.

At another point, Mr. Mubarak said that about six months before he was forced from office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “tested the waters” about a plan to displace the Palestinian population of Gaza into the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula.

“No, no,” Mr. Mubarak said he had replied. “Forget about it unless you want to start another war between you and us. The borders can’t be touched.”

But he is also heard saying he sometimes used Israel’s influence in Washington for his own purposes, perhaps alluding to the role that pro-Israeli lobbyists often played in securing American aid for their allies in Cairo. “I exploit the Israelis this way, and I stirred sedition” between Israel and the United States, Mr. Mubarak said. “I put them in confrontation with each other.”

Muhammad Idrees Ahmad, who passed the article along, sees meaning in Mubarak’s madness:

This is reminiscent of the Iranian Shah’s views. Mobutu and Benazir Bhutto also believed that the road to Washington runs through Tel Aviv.

But Times reporter Kirkpatrick’s term “far-fetched conspiracy theories” is of course dismissive. And glib. When Walt and Mearsheimer first published their analysis of the Israel lobby in 2006, it was dismissed as a conspiracy theory. Now everyone subscribes to it. For instance, Times columnist Tom Friedman wrote two years ago that the Congress is “bought and paid for by the Israel lobby.” And earlier this year Friedman said in England that presidential candidates don’t oppose Israel because of campaign funding concerns– not wanting to alienate AIPAC.

I cite Friedman because he has often gone in for the same dismissal as Kirkpatrick uses. Back in 2002, Friedman slammed Muslim conspiracy theories about how the west works. This paragraph is particularly entertaining:

Look at the excruciating process of analysis, self-criticism and accountability that America went through after Vietnam. Few Arab-Muslim countries have ever done anything like that after a war, let alone after 9/11. Until they do, their conclusion that America or the Jews are behind all their problems is escapism, not analysis.

After that column, Friedman pushed the Iraq war. He said the war plan was in essence a conspiracy of neoconservatives, and Israel and occupied Palestine was the model: “the Iraq war is a kind of Jenin on a huge scale.”

How much accountability has there been for those crazy ideas?

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About Philip Weiss

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75 Responses

  1. annie
    annie
    September 27, 2013, 12:21 pm

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “tested the waters” about a plan to displace the Palestinian population of Gaza into the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula.

    this reminds me of a conversation i had a few weeks ago with an egyptian who told me of salifist’s plans to make their own state in the sinai.

    i’m just wondering, assuming netanyahu did have this conversation w/mubarak, how this plan would be carried out and by whose (alleged) intent, in whose name? israel’s? ‘displacing’ a million.7 people is no easy task. i wonder what kinds of events would precipitate this displacement. rockets from gaza? of course, any action israel took would have to be framed as a response.

    assuming the conversation took place (which is a big if), i’d be curious to hear more about the “plan”. or did mubarak think to ask…How?

  2. Citizen
    Citizen
    September 27, 2013, 12:46 pm

    India thinks the same, that is, the road to Washington runs through Tel Aviv, and has acted on this belief since the early 1990’s http://www.countercurrents.org/prashad261208.htm :

    More of the same, a 2003 update: http://m.gulfnews.com/comment-delhi-s-road-to-washington-runs-through-tel-aviv-1.357080

  3. Krauss
    Krauss
    September 27, 2013, 1:45 pm

    I wouldn’t blame Kirkpatrick that much for that stupid phrase. He knows the minders are watching him.

    I mean, this guy sent a stray tweet mildly implicating Israelis for racism – and obvious fact – and Jeff Goldberg and his gang was all over him like rabid dogs. Kirkpatrick, the milquetoast WASP, had no backup and does not have the tenacity of a Mearsheimer.
    So he folded, something you documented on this site.

    The reason Israel Firsters like Goldberg patrol the waters is because it works, it creates self-censorship. If you’re branded ‘anti-Zionist’ in the halls of the NYT, forget about getting a promotion. As I’ve written before: you don’t necessarily have to be devoted to Zionism, but you should at least be neutral. How many senior editors in the American media are anti-Zionist in explicit terms? Not one.
    You have some who are neutral but you also have many who are committed Zionists.

    Kirkpatrick knows this.
    The coverage from the Middle East, a region that the bulk of the Jewish readership, many of the Jewish editors and the Jewish/Christian ruling family wants to be reported upon in a liberal Zionist fashion and this has to be accommodated, especially if you want to climb further.

    • JohnAdamTurnbull
      JohnAdamTurnbull
      September 27, 2013, 2:31 pm

      “… patrol the waters …” I like that.

      We’re all Gaza fishers now?

    • Rusty Pipes
      Rusty Pipes
      September 27, 2013, 3:21 pm

      Kirkpatrick may not have the tenacity, but he doesn’t have the tenure of Mearsheimer either. Both Mearsheimer and Walt have paid a price for their outspokenness, but they haven’t lost their jobs.

      • Krauss
        Krauss
        September 28, 2013, 1:25 pm

        That’s a fair point, Rusty.

        Maybe I’m just a bit influenced by Seymour Hersh’s clarion call of late that too many editors and journalists are afraid to speak truth to power.

        I still stand by my original assessment, but perhaps I should spread the blame more fairly to his editors too.

      • andrew r
        andrew r
        September 28, 2013, 5:54 pm

        Tenure didn’t do Ward Churchill much good.

  4. ritzl
    ritzl
    September 27, 2013, 2:12 pm

    ALL roads to DC lead through Tel Aviv at the moment. It wouldn’t be surprising to learn that the NRA has an office there. #notsarcasm

  5. Ludwig
    Ludwig
    September 27, 2013, 2:24 pm

    Jerusalem is the capitol city of Israel. Not Tel Aviv.

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      September 27, 2013, 2:45 pm

      Only in Tel Aviv. No one else recognizes that claim. Even the US government.

      Next.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 27, 2013, 2:50 pm

        And it’s west jerusalem

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        September 27, 2013, 3:33 pm

        @seafoid I think I understand the WJ distinction, but can you explain why you made it?

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 27, 2013, 3:37 pm

        It was for Ludwig, Ritzl. Sorry.

        Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. West Jerusalem is. East Jerusalem doesn’t care about Israel’s capital.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        September 27, 2013, 4:45 pm

        Got it. Thanks. Peace.

        It’s always interesting how the Ludwigs of the I/P world can/feel it’s acceptable to just blurt this stuff out. As you say, rightly and often, it’s a closing “window.”

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 27, 2013, 7:58 pm

        @ seafoid

        West Jerusalem was established by Israel as the national capital in 1950 and in 1980, the Jerusalem Law made the entire unified city of Jerusalem the Israeli capital. However, It is not the officially recognized capital of Israel. Only two countries around the world, Guatemala and El Salvador, have recognized it as such. Countries such as the USA, Canada and all European nations only recognize Tel-Aviv as the capital and hence maintain their embassies there.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 28, 2013, 2:12 am

        @citizen: I think you know the importance of Jerusalem in Judaism and to any Jew. We don’t need any one to “recognizes” Jerusalem, the city that generations of Jews pray for and dream about it. A Jew from Iraq and a Jew from Poland that were separated for centuries, have different costumes and customs, different languages, both knew to say in Hebrew phrases like “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy”.

        Disconnecting Jerusalem from Judaism and Jewish tradition is only part of a huge campaign aimed to disconnect the roots of the people of Israel from the land of Israel. The campaign contains many aspects such as erasing our history, mocking it, inventing nonsense about our history (“metaphoric Jerusalem..”) and changing any fact and sign of Judaism on this land. This campaign will be failed since it is very hard to eradicate the truth.

        Before you and others replies and sending me UN resolutions or other “facts” please, read the last paragraph in the following short comment I wrote several days ago:
        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/violence-works-by-ending-complacency.html#comment-596118

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        September 28, 2013, 5:05 am

        @ MY1

        We’ve already demolished your mythology multiple times on this site, could you please just put a sock in it, it’s just boring now.

        I mean come ON!

        ….erasing our history, mocking it, inventing nonsense about our history…

        It’s not our fault you can’t tell the difference between actual history and the nonsense you make up as part of your mythology is it.

        As for the “metaphoric city” well unless Jews were also praying “…and lord guide us in planning the sewage, lighting and transport systems…and what’s a fair rate for local householder and corporate tax” they weren’t praying about a real city. Sorry.

        And silly us, thinking the people who actually LIVED THERE for two thousand years have more right to it than a bunch of COLONISTS whose only claim seem to be they could utter some wishful gobbledegook every now and then in a long dead language. Talk about trying to erase a people’s history – it’s JEWS doing it to PALESTINIANS. Every single day!

        Honestly, every time you post you just prove my own twist on an old quote:
        “Everybody has a nationality, except for the Irish and the Jews who have a neurosis. And Zionists who have a full blown violent psychosis beyond the reach of modern medication.”

        Last thing, sorry, I’m not mocking your history I’m mocking YOU and the silly fairy stories you wish were your history! Just so we’re clear.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 28, 2013, 6:00 am

        MahaneYehude1

        Sorry, I don’t view holy scripture as actual history, nor as any rational basis upon which to view the real world. Especially not where scripture is used to justify criminal activity and implementing force by any government.

        I see you have a dim view of facts and prefer metaphors.

        If Israel has such a righteous hatred of erasing history, why does it not officially acknowledge, say, The Nakba?

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 28, 2013, 8:08 am

        “We don’t need any one to “recognizes” Jerusalem, the city that generations of Jews pray for and dream about it.”

        Actually, you do. Sure, states are free to do any number of insane things. (A man who’s been dead for 19 years still holds an office in North Korea, for example.) But such things are meaningless without international recognition.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 28, 2013, 8:51 am

        >> We don’t need any one to “recognizes” Jerusalem, the city that generations of Jews pray for and dream about it. A Jew from Iraq and a Jew from Poland … both knew to say in Hebrew phrases …

        Dreaming and praying and reciting phrases do not constitute a real-world entitlement to anything. Your customers are not entitled to take your potatoes simply because they say they dreamed and prayed and recited phrases claiming them as their own.

        >> Disconnecting Jerusalem from Judaism and Jewish tradition …

        No-one is disconnecting Jerusalem from Judaism and Jewish tradition. You’re free to continue reciting phrases about Jerusalem until the universe ends. But those phrases will never constitute a real-world entitlement to it.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 28, 2013, 9:20 am

        @ecru: Really, you have already demolished my mythology multiple times on this site? How? By your two former comments which only show me that I right about the campaign aimed to erase our past? I recommend you to tone down your comments and start respect other people beliefs.

        For the third and last time, let’s try it again:

        Millions of Buddhists believe Buddha was born in Lumbini, Nepal. For them it is a holy place. There are other places in Nepal and India considered the birth place of Buddha, each of them is a holy place for different group in Buddhism. Although it can’t be that Buddha was born in many places, no one ask them for proofs, even not if Buddha was a real person or mythological creature. The places are respected and any worshiper can visit any place he believes the birth place of Buddha.

        Jerusalem is considered the third holy place for Suni Muslims and received the title “Ulla al-Qiblatain” since in the beginning of Islam, Muslims prayed with their face directed to Jerusalem (later, to Mecca, a real city, not metaphoric one). It is holy for them mainly because the prophet Muhammad arrived their in his night journey riding on his winged-horse Al-Buraq. Hundreds of millions Muslims believe this story mentioned in the Qura’an, no body ask for proofs for this journey nor a fossil of the wings, and all, including me, respect their beliefs, regardless mythology or history.

        The situation is different when it comes to our roots. Only we have to bring proves to convince others that our history or mythology has connection to the land of Israel. Why should I give you proof that my stories are history and not mythology? If it is mythology, so what? Is it not enough to respect our beliefs without put it in your target board, like Buddhists or Muslims beliefs? But no more, ecru, no more, we don’t need give you any proof. Our roots here are not easily uprooted. It is very hard to do it to memories of several tens of decades. We returned home, we are building our nation in our homeland as our ancestors did, real ancestor or mythological ancestor, I let you decide – what is good for others beliefs, good for me.

        You continue mocking our belief in a very sarcastic cruel way. Take your lovely sentence “…and lord guide us in planning the sewage, lighting and transport systems…and what’s a fair rate for local householder and corporate tax”, and see you brave enough to say it to a Muslim while he prays in a Mosque in Dublin while his face is directed toward Mecca. (I can imagine your smile when you thought about such evil sentence). Fortunately, in contrary to you, many Muslims I know, several are anti-Israeli, do respect our beliefs and recognize that we share many aspects of our religions. Some of them call me “Ibn Ami” meaning “my cousin” since they believe Abraham – Ibrahim Al-Khalil was our common father.

        And one more issue: You are not mocking me personally at all only do me “better” Zionist. If you think my truth is boring, please, learn what to do with it and with my boring comments. I am not here to entertain you or others. I am here to bring my truth although it is no more than fairy stories for you.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 28, 2013, 9:25 am

        @citizen, @Woody @eljay: please, read my reply to ecru. I think I summarize my views there.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 28, 2013, 9:44 am

        >> @citizen, @Woody @eljay: please, read my reply to ecru. I think I summarize my views there.

        Jews and Buddhists and Muslims can believe in their roots all they want. They can can pray and recite and yearn all they want. But none of that entitles any of them to steal, occupy and colonize anything.

        You’re not so stupid that you cannot comprehend that, so the alternative is that you choose not to comprehend it. You choose to be a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 28, 2013, 11:36 am

        @eljay: There is simple thing that it is hard for you to understand: It is impossible to steal or colonize your homeland. We returned our homeland, we accept the fact the it is also other people homeland and ready to share this land. Did you notice to President Abbas speech in the UN when he said: “I am confident that the Israeli people want peace, and that its majority supports a two-State solution.” So, if President Abbas knows this fact, you should know it either.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 28, 2013, 12:36 pm

        MY1:

        And your views do nothing to refute my point. The cultural impotance of the city to Jews is irrelevant to the political question at issue.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        September 28, 2013, 3:07 pm

        @ MY1

        That Ziocaine stuff’s really beats CJD at rotting brains doesn’t it.

        ….the campaign aimed to erase our past?

        What campaign would that be? The one were people replace lies, fictions, half-truths and plain myths with the real actual history, the things that actually happened? Wow, never come across anybody so afraid of their own history before. And I’ve lived in England.

        I recommend you to tone down your comments and start respect other people beliefs.

        Or what? Do tell. As for “respecting other people’s beliefs…..” Nope not going to happen, not with your beliefs. There is ZERO reason to respect people’s beliefs when they have been specifically constructed and maintained to justify bigotry, theft, ethnic cleansing, colonialism, apartheid and murder. Or would you also have argued that a Nazi’s beliefs in the “Aryan” nature of Europe be respected too?

        Hundreds of millions Muslims believe this story [Mohammed in Jerusalem] mentioned in the Qura’an…

        But for some reason don’t use it to justify kicking people out of their homes. Unlike Israelis. The time they did kick Jews out it was over politics – and you know what – that was wrong.

        Only we have to bring proves to convince others that our history or mythology has connection to the land of Israel

        Oh boo hoo. Poor you. Where has anyone denied Judaism has its roots in the Levant?

        Is it not enough to respect our beliefs without put it in your target board, like Buddhists or Muslims beliefs?

        When you use those beliefs to justify the gross injustices you visit upon the “non-Chosen” then yes you’d better believe those self-serving myths are going to be challenged. And as I’ve said before – you’re the ones who opened yourselves up to this type of challenge by trying to use myths and lies to justify the unjustifiable.

        We returned home, we are building our nation in our homeland as our ancestors did

        Like your ancestors did? No disagreement there, after all wasn’t it that lot that invented genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced conversions? Why yes it was. Hey, you want the myths, you gotta take all of them.

        As for “your home” if it had been your home no problem, unfortunately it was home to other people at the time. Again you’re trying to justify aggressive Jewish colonialism that displaced hundreds of thousands of NATIVE people just because you told each other some bed time stories about the place. And in what dimension is it the home of people who’ve had NO link to the place in 100 generations?

        …see you brave enough to say it to a Muslim while he prays in a Mosque in Dublin while his face is directed toward Mecca.

        A Muslim praying towards Mecca in Dublin, or anywhere else for that matter hardly gives them the right to travel there, cleanse the local populace, oppress any who are left, and then move in. The funny thing is I’ve never met a Muslim who thinks it does give them that right. And they pray to Mecca much more often than any Jew prayed about Jerusalem. Nope, never met a Muslim that insane. Or anyone else for that matter.

        such evil sentence

        Yes oh so evil to point out what thinking about a REAL city as opposed to a mythologised metaphorical one involves isn’t it.

        Look, just be honest you’re a bigot who will use ANYTHING to justify Jewish primacy in Palestine. The history, the mythology, it doesn’t actually matter to you; it’s very obvious that you’ll grasp at anything no matter how insane to maintain your position as the “boss” over the Palestinians. Just have the guts to admit it.

        Anybody out there, is there such a thing as a Zionist who isn’t a moral and intellectual coward? If so I’ve yet to encounter one.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 4:09 am

        Ecru:

        From my mother’s side I am a descendant of the Rivlin family, one of the most distinguished, illustrious (and large!) Jewish families of Jerusalem. I can trace my family back in Jerusalem to at least the beginning of the 19th century.

        Describing the Jewish connection to Jerusalem as “a group of colonists with a long dead language” is sheer historical nonsense. Jews where the largest community in jlm since the mid 19th cent, and the majority of jlm since the end of 19th cent. Perhaps this does not fit your agenda, but jlm was a jewish majority city way before Israel was established in 1948.

      • Ecru
        Ecru
        September 29, 2013, 4:49 am

        @ Benedict

        Jews who’d been actually living in Jerusalem for hundreds of years were obviously not what I was referring to but rather European Zionist colonists who thought, and still think, that just praying about a place they’ve had no link to for 100 generations gives them land-title that supersedes that of all others.

        As for Jews being the majority at a given point in history, how does that legalise the illegal Israeli acquisition of territory through waging war, and the resulting slow motion ethnic cleansing that’s been going on since then? It doesn’t simply put.

        Let’s say Bradford in England has a larger Pakistani population than Anglo-Saxon, does that mean Pakistan can now claim ownership of Bradford? Nobody in their right mind would say so and yet when it comes to Israel, ethno-centric insanity is looked upon as the norm.

        One last thing. I double checked your claim about Jewish populations in Jerusalem, seems fair enough, but while doing so I came across this lovely little tidbit at “The Jewish Press.”

        On the issue of demographics, the numbers make things quite clear that even before modern Zionism began, the city was Jewish and only Muslim repressive policies artificially kept the numbers of Jews down before the mid-19th century.

        Now I doubt that claim of Muslim repressive policies (before the mid-19th Century Jerusalem had reverted to being a backwater in a larger Empire) aimed solely at Jews, but isn’t it funny that when Muslims are accused of rigging the demographics, it’s described as “repressive” but when Jews do it it’s “perfectly reasonable to protect the nature of the state.” Yet more Zionist double-standards there.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        September 29, 2013, 4:58 am

        We returned our homeland

        There’s the rub. Since when does an entire people “return” to its homeland?

        Before you give us yet another lecture about respecting the beliefs of others, I would point out that there can be no equivalence between an imagined and even longed-for “homeland” and a real homeland. Palestine was thus not “also other people homeland” but the actual homeland of another people, as opposed to the imagined “homeland” of two peoples with equal claims.

        In the real world (the colonists’ beliefs notwithstanding), Jewish immigration to Palestine with the goal of establishing a Jewish polity there was a colonial enterprise. It may have been a colonial enterprise with mitigating circumstances (see e.g. Deutscher’s burning building analogy), but that does not change its basic nature.

      • piotr
        piotr
        September 29, 2013, 4:59 am

        Jews were praying to meet in a small city and not in a bloated monster with boundaries like a spider and criss-crossed with separation walls. Moreover, the religious Jews were anti-Zionist, and Zionists did not pray.

        Concerning the non-metaphorical Jerusalem, Jews asked Romans to be relieved from the rule of their king, but subsequently (sixty years later) refused to pay taxes and were evicted by the legal authorities.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 29, 2013, 7:35 am

        @Shmuel:

        One of the best seller in Israel in the last year is the book written by Yuval Noah Harari named “A brief history of mankind”. The author uses and explains the term “Imagined Reality” (my translation and I hope it accurate). Here a link to the book:
        http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13447030-a-brief-history-of-mankind

        There are Palestinians living abroad for several decades. I believe there is third generation of Palestinians living in USA, for instance. Now, let’s assume for the sake of the discussion, that the situation in Israel today won’t change for more several decades. Then, we will see the sixth, tenth or more generations of Palestinians in USA and other countries. With the time, many of them will marry non-Palestinians, will be assimilated completely in the local population etc. Three Palestinians of tenth generation, from USA, France and Paraguay, will be totally different: eating different foods, speaking different languages (maybe forgot Arabic), maybe will look different, probably different genetics etc. But one thing I am sure will be common to all three of them: The common memory, the one that determines peoples, “The homeland is there!! Palestine is the homeland”.

        Same situation occurred to the Jewish people in diaspora. As you know, my family from Iraq. Although the Jewish community of Iraq was the ancient one, this fact never helped them. Actually, they never felt real “Iraqis”, always under fear and always ask protection from the governors. One thing they knew “The homeland is there!! Zion is the homeland”. I believe the same occurred to Jews in Poland, Germany and all around the globe.

        If you say, but the Palestinians never left Palestine, they have documents and memories of real houses and villages. I would say that also Jews never left Israel and any decline in their number was due to massive restrictions and persecutions (remember the Crusaders in Jerusalem). I sure you won’t accept a claim of a right-wing extremist Jews “but the majority of Palestinians left, it is our homeland now and only our”. The ultimate response will be “They left due to your actions”.

        Shmuel, this is my truth and my only truth. I do believe that, since the circumstances and history, this land became our common homeland. We have no other choice only to share it and live together side by side living in peace.

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 29, 2013, 7:47 am

        how many Jews lived in Jerusalem in 1800? In 1700? how many in 1850?

        provide the statistics and sources

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 29, 2013, 7:47 am

        @ecru: if you had strong opinion and sure that you right, you wouldn’t use ugly personal attack like in your last paragraphs. If you still interest in my ideology and opinions, you can read my reply to Shmuel. If you think I am a bigot, after all the comments I wrote here, you can ignore me, nothing will happen to both of us. God (real or metaphoric) bless you.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 29, 2013, 7:53 am

        >> Three Palestinians of tenth generation, from USA, France and Paraguay … one thing I am sure will be common to all three of them: The common memory, the one that determines peoples, “The homeland is there!! Palestine is the homeland”.

        1. The homelands of those Palestinians would be the U.S.A., France and Paraguay, not Palestine. Those Palestinians would have no right to return to Palestine, ethnically-cleanse Palestinians or non-Palestinians from their homes and lands, and establish a supremacist state.

        2. I’m first-generation – not tenth-generation – Canadian. My father was from Croatia and my mother from Italy. My homeland is Canada. I have no need to pretend otherwise.

        >> … my family from Iraq. … One thing they knew “The homeland is there!! Zion is the homeland”.

        Your family’s homeland was Iraq. They may not have liked Iraq or felt “at home” there, but that did not make “Zion” their homeland, and it did not give them the right to colonize Palestine on behalf of the supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        September 29, 2013, 8:09 am

        MY1,

        Thanks for the book recommendation; I’ll look for it. It reminds me of the view expressed by Buber in his introduction to Moses.

        You merely strengthen my point. You imagine a future in which Palestine will no longer be a real homeland for Palestinians and compare it to the reality of Jews. Indeed, for the tenth generation, the “homeland” would no longer be a reality, regardless of the circumstances of their ancestors’ departure — all the more so when the land itself will have ceased to be the tangible homeland for the vast majority of the people, replaced by another people, whose real homeland it will have become.

        The fact that Palestinians “have documents and memories of real houses and villages” is precisely what makes the difference. If, at some future time, that will no longer be the case, their connection will no longer be real and demonstrable (beyond their own imaginations and beliefs), and will certainly not be equal to that of the real inhabitants of the land at that time.

        A token presence of members of the same religion or ethnicity will not change that, nor will the (real or imagined) reasons for their absence.

        I sure you won’t accept a claim of a right-wing extremist Jews “but the majority of Palestinians left, it is our homeland now and only our”. The ultimate response will be “They left due to your actions”.

        At present that is the truth, but five hundred or a thousand or more years from now, such arguments will hardly make a difference to the current and radicated inhabitants of the land (the only ones whose view will really matter — not that of meddling foreign powers of the day). Longing and belief and vague (as in not personal, direct and demonstrable) ethno-religious ties do not constitute valid claims in the real world.

        this is my truth and my only truth

        Which brings us back to the crux of the matter. Your truth has no validity outside of you and those who share it. If you would like to present claims in the real world, they must be based on real-world facts, independent of subjective “truth”.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 29, 2013, 8:55 am

        >> @eljay: There is simple thing that it is hard for you to understand: It is impossible to steal or colonize your homeland.

        MY1, there is a simpler thing that you refuse to understand: You and your co-collectivists did not steal or colonize your homeland. You stole and colonized someone else’s homeland, and drove them from it.

        >> We returned our homeland …

        No, you returned to someone else’s homeland.

        >> Did you notice to President Abbas speech in the UN when he said: “I am confident that the Israeli people want peace, and that its majority supports a two-State solution.” So, if President Abbas knows this fact, you should know it either.

        Did you notice that President Abbas spoke of Israelis, not of Jews anywhere and everywhere in the world? Since President Abbas knows this fact, you should know it too.

        But you refuse to know it, because you are a Zio-supremacist.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 29, 2013, 9:02 am

        To me ‘homeland’ is a place where one was, as a matter of fact, brought up during early years. Some other definition seems to be in play but I can’t see what it is. Rhetorical mystification is going on.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 29, 2013, 3:10 pm

        “Jews where the largest community in jlm since the mid 19th cent, and the majority of jlm since the end of 19th cent.”

        That is pure hasbara bullshit.
        Jews became the majority in Jerusalem when they ethnically cleansed the West in 1948.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 3:58 pm

        seafoid:

        What you claim might be true in some metaphorical/mythological Jerusalem. As for the actual Jerusalem, the historical record seems not to agree with you.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 30, 2013, 11:47 am

        @Shmuel:

        The returning of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is a unique event in the history, there is no rules or any accepted international view whether this is moral or not and anyone can see it in his way. We both wrote our different views, we don’t agree but, as M Hughes wrote below “Rhetorical mystification is going on”, let’s back to the reality.

        One main thing in my comment was ignored: the fact that the Jewish people experienced many endless restrictions and persecutions. This is also unique to the Jewish people (I don’t say other peoples didn’t experience persecutions, but the Jews experienced them in many places and and many times). Only the Jews had “Jewish problem” that resulted in many “solution of the Jewish problem”. This abnormal situation, that Jews were considered a “problem” was the main reason, IMO, to the emerge of the Zionist movement although I know others would say there were other reasons like the special circumstances in Europe, etc. As I wrote before, The first Zionists didn’t choose the fertile land of Uganda “the diamond of Africa”, the mineral and diamond rich land of Congo, water rich land of Senegal etc. They chose Israel (or Palestine, if you want) only because our history. They legally bought lands, didn’t intend to expel other people and started develop them. The international community recognized them and legally voted for two independent states. The refusal of the Palestinians and the Arab countries to accept our state is one of the basis reasons for our long conflict here. The Jews have their independent state and I think it is about the time to turn the clock and accept to part this land and establish independent Palestinian state. For me, this is the only just solution and the most realistic one. Any other solution, like one state solution, is unrealistic in the Middle East where there is not much tolerance for minorities.

      • MahaneYehude1
        MahaneYehude1
        September 30, 2013, 12:39 pm

        @eljay: Several time I wrote that the majority of the Israelis want peace and support two states solution. You didn’t agree with me. Now, when President Abbas says same thing I receive from you strange reply that ignore the statement of Abbas.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 30, 2013, 4:58 pm

        >> @eljay: Several time I wrote that the majority of the Israelis want peace and support two states solution. You didn’t agree with me. Now, when President Abbas says same thing I receive from you strange reply that ignore the statement of Abbas.

        Abbas spoke of Israel. You speak of a supremacist Jewish “homeland”. Big difference.

    • Justpassingby
      Justpassingby
      September 27, 2013, 3:15 pm

      Ludwig

      Nope Jerusalem is the capital of Uganda and Tel Aviv is the capital of Cyprus.

      If you think you could steal land, so can others.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 27, 2013, 10:25 pm

      >> Jerusalem is the capitol city of Israel. Not Tel Aviv.

      Jerusalem may be the unofficial capital of supremacist “Jewish State”, but Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 4:11 am

        Eljay:

        If anyone can invent a capital for Israel then who said its Tel aviv? Perhaps Israel’s capital is Haifa, or Beer Sheva, or perhaps my own lovely Rechovot? If jlm is not Israel’s capital we are left with the strange proposition that Israel is country with no capital city…

        Of course all this is pure stupidity. A capital city doesn’t need to be “recognized” in order to be so. It becomes a capital city by the fact that it functions as such. jlm contains all major branches of Israeli govt – parliament, ministries, supreme court, president, PM, rabbinate, TV – so it’s a capital city even if this fact is very painful for you to acknowledge

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 29, 2013, 8:02 am

        >> jlm contains all major branches of Israeli govt – parliament, ministries, supreme court, president, PM, rabbinate, TV – so it’s a capital city even if this fact is very painful for you to acknowledge

        Jerusalem is outside Israel’s / Partition borders. It may be the capital of oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State”, but it’s not the capital of Israel. This may be very painful for you to acknowledge.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        September 29, 2013, 1:01 pm

        “A capital city doesn’t need to be “recognized” in order to be so. It becomes a capital city by the fact that it functions as such.”

        Nope. it just means that it functions as a capital. It can also mean that it is claimed as a capital. For one to say that it is a capital, it must function as a capital, be claimed as a capital and be recognized as a capital.

        Here, no one recognizes the Apartheid state’s claim to the city of al Quds being the capital of the racist state, but it is no more than claimed as such.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 3:57 pm

        Your quit right, woody. A proper capital city should be recognized as such. That’s why most Israelis (including me) recognize Jerusalem as there capital. The day I will stop recognizing Jerusalem I will turn to my optician for a new set of glasses.

      • eljay
        eljay
        October 1, 2013, 7:29 am

        >> That’s why most Israelis (including me) recognize Jerusalem as there capital.

        You can recognize day for night and up for down all you like, but it doesn’t alter reality.

    • just
      just
      September 28, 2013, 12:21 am

      In your dreams, Ludwig.

      • yrn
        yrn
        September 28, 2013, 8:26 am

        just
        Well looks like you are day dreaming.
        Jerusalem is the Capitol of Israel.
        The Parliament is there, the President is there, the high court is there, the rabbinate is there, the Prime minister house is there, all Country offices are there, all main events are there.

        So you can like it or not, but once you wake up from your day dreaming , that’s the reality, Jerusalem is the Capitol in ISRAEL and always has been and always will be.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 28, 2013, 9:14 am

        @yrn “Jerusalem is the Capitol of Israel.
        The Parliament is there, the President is there, the high court is there, the rabbinate is there, the Prime minister house is there, all Country offices are there, all main events are there.”

        Pity Jerusalem isn’t in Israel tho. UNSC res 252 and EIGHT reminders… Israeli propagandists drivel doesn’t change the actual legal status of territories under International Law.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        September 29, 2013, 3:11 pm

        West Jerusalem is the capital.
        East Jerusalem isn’t even in Israel.

    • talknic
      talknic
      September 28, 2013, 12:28 am

      @ Ludwig On what date was Jerusalem legally separated from what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared and recognized as it asked to be recognized “within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947” ?

      On what date was Jerusalem legally annexed to the State of Israel? Who was the annexation agreement with? When was the referendum among the Palestinian citizens of Jerusalem conducted? You do know that the acquisition of territory by war (any war) has been illegal since at least 1933 http://pages.citebite.com/y1f0t4q1v4son

      Have you ever dared to read UNSC res 252 and ts EIGHT reminders?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 28, 2013, 6:04 am

        @ talknic

        MahaneYehude1 said, “We don’t need any one to “recognizes” Jerusalem, the city that generations of Jews pray for and dream about it.” I guess he feels the same about: ” … it (Israel) asked to be recognized (as such) “within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 4:13 am

        Talknic:

        In the partition plan jlm is not part of Arab country. It is corpus seperandum with final status dependent on vote within population or lapses automatically after 10 years. Ten years have long passed and a vote will show most citizens want to be in Israel.

      • tree
        tree
        September 29, 2013, 4:40 am

        Benedict, in the UN Partition Plan, the Jewish State only got 55% of Mandate Palestine, not 78%, and the ethnic cleansing that the Haganah-IDF did to the Palestinian population was in direct violation of the Plan. Any vote on status should have included those who were illegally and immorally banished from their homes and their land, which means that Israel should have never been a Jewish supremacist state, according to the UN Partition Plan.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 8:32 am

        Tree:

        The “expulsion” argument actually works both ways. Its true some Palestinian Arabs were expelled from jlm (Talbiya neighborhood, for instance), but so to where thousands of Palestinian Jews who were kicked out of the jewish quarter, Atarot, Neve yakov, Kfar shiloach, Nachlat shimon.

        Obviously the Arab leadership at the time had no qualms about ethnic expulsion – as long as it served there purposes.

        In any case in 1948 the pop of jlm was 100,000 jew and about 60,000 arab. So it’s not that difficult to guess how the vote in jlm would have ended

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 29, 2013, 9:22 am

        100k to 60k?

        How many Jews and Arabs at the advent of the Zio movement?

        Clearly you have no problem with ethnic cleansing tho Benedict, since it’s only through ethnic cleansing that your Jewish apartheid State exists.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 29, 2013, 9:40 am

        Its true some Palestinian Arabs were expelled from jlm (Talbiya neighborhood, for instance), but so to where thousands of Palestinian Jews who were kicked out of the jewish quarter, Atarot, Neve yakov, Kfar shiloach, Nachlat shimon.

        Nakba denial is a banning offence. Israel expelled 300,000 Palestinian before any of the Arab armies took up arms. Stop lying.

        Obviously the Arab leadership at the time had no qualms about ethnic expulsion – as long as it served there purposes.

        Benny Morris debunked that.

        More Nakba denial.

      • tree
        tree
        September 29, 2013, 5:55 pm

        Benedict,

        The majority of Jews living in Jerusalem city lived in the western part, which became West Jerusalem. Although they outnumbered non-Jewish Arabs there, by a 3 to 1 margin, within the area that was designated as a Corpus Separatum under the UN Partition Plan, Arab non-Jews outnumbered Jews by 105,000 versus 100,000. Yes, its not difficult to guess how a vote would have turned out. Nor is it hard to guess how a vote on partition in all of Mandate Palestine would have turned out, given there were 1,5000 n-j Arabs and 600,000 Jews there. Or likewise how a vote within the “Jewish State” would have turned out, since there were roughly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews within the Partition Plan’s designated “Jewish State”. Hence the Zionists desire to ethnically cleanse the areas it claimed for its own.

        Here is the Partition Plans descriptions of the proposed boundaries of the Corpus Separatum of Jerusalem:

        B. BOUNDARIES OF THE CITY

        The City of Jerusalem shall include the present municipality of Jerusalem plus the surrounding villages and towns, the most eastern of which shall be Abu Dis; the most southern, Bethlehem; the most western, ‘Ein Karim (including also the built-up area of Motsa); and the most northern Shu’fat, as indicated on the attached sketch-map (annex B).

        http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

        and here is a map of the proposed boundaries: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Plan_of_partition_with_economic_union_-_Annex_B.pdf

        My understanding of the fate of the 2,000-3,000 Jewish residents of East Jerusalem, gleaned from Israeli sources and citing the statements of the Jewish civilians themselves is that when the Jordanian Arab Legion secured the Old City those Jewish civilians were treated well and asked where they wished to go, and they responded they wished to join their compatriots in Israeli controlled West Jerusalem. Whether any of them later requested to return and were denied I do not know, but it was their right and they should have been allowed to return if they so wished, just as the Palestinian refugees should have been allowed to return to their homes in what became Israel if they so wished.

        Here’s an article on the ethnic cleansing of West Jerusalem:

        http://www.palestine-studies.org/enakba/exodus/Krystall,%20The%20De%20Arabization%20of%20West%20Jerusalem.pdf

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 30, 2013, 6:00 am

        shingo

        You’ve got to be joking, shingo. I’ve just described the nakba of both Arab and Jewish Palestinians in jlm and now you accuse me of nakba denial?! That’s ridiculous.

        Benny morris debunked the fact that all jews were expelled from the jewish quarter by the arab forces? That’s news to me. I always thought the Arab legion was responsible for that. Assuming your right, where DID all those 2,000 Jews disappear? Sounds pretty mysterious to me.

    • MahaneYehude1
      MahaneYehude1
      September 28, 2013, 1:42 am

      @Ludwig: From Jerusalem, I send you my greetings and want to thank you for your support of the state of Israel. I very glad to know that there are people here, not many, that can see the truth and defend it no matter the replies they receive.

      Greetings from Jerusalem – Gruβ aus Jerusalem und Vielen Dank!!

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        September 29, 2013, 7:45 am

        people ‘here’?

        Ludwig is a Zionist Jew.

        What did you expect from a fellow member of your cult?

    • amigo
      amigo
      September 28, 2013, 7:44 am

      Ludwig, every time you travel to Jerusalem , you are going abroad.

      And if you live there, you are not living in Israel.

      • benedict
        benedict
        September 29, 2013, 4:12 am

        Amigo:

        Try explaining that to the cop next time you’re caught running a red light in Jerusalem.

  6. Donald
    Donald
    September 27, 2013, 5:30 pm

    “Look at the excruciating process of analysis, self-criticism and accountability that America went through after Vietnam. ”

    Yeah, I remember it well The investigative commissions, the long reports, endless discussion on television, reparations paid to millions of Vietnamese families, public apologies, plus Kissinger, Nixon, Westmoreland and McNamara being tried and convicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Truly, America is an exceptional nation.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 28, 2013, 12:25 am

      Now, now, Donald. Play nicely. No need to be sarky.

      Well, actually, yes, there is. When you see crap like that, some form of mockery is the appropriate response.

  7. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    September 27, 2013, 6:08 pm

    RE: “Look at the excruciating process of analysis, self-criticism and accountability that America went through after Vietnam.” ~ Friedman

    MY COMMENT: Since when did a few films from progressive directors in Hollywood amount to an “excruciating process of analysis, self-criticism and accountability”?!?! Anyway, “everyone knows” the U.S. would have won a glorious victory in Vietnam if we hadn’t been stabbed in the back by the “elite, East Coast liberals” of the media! ! !

    • Ron Edwards
      Ron Edwards
      September 28, 2013, 9:08 am

      None of which films featured a Vietnamese character with an identifiable political point of view. (Agreeing with your point and with Donald’s)

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        September 28, 2013, 4:43 pm

        Yes, Donald made the point quite well with his superbly snarky sarcasm. Tom Friedman is obviously a “bubble boy” (VIDEO, 04:43)!

  8. James Canning
    James Canning
    September 27, 2013, 7:27 pm

    Netanyahu wanted to drive the Palestinians in Gaza into the Sinai? Interesting. We can be sure Netanyahu would like many non-Jews in the West Bank to relocate.

  9. eGuard
    eGuard
    September 28, 2013, 5:58 pm

    Simple: Israel, through US dollars leverage, is forcing the Egyptian coup govt to strangle Gaza people.

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