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Zionism’s tailspin: Stark minority of young California Jews are ‘comfortable with idea of Jewish state’

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The latest study of U.S. Jewish attitudes towards Israel only confirms the trend– Zionism is tanking; there is growing indifference to the idea of a Jewish state among younger, unaffiliated Jews.

Here’s that survey of over 3500 Bay Area Californians, 96 percent of whom consider themselves Jewish or partly Jewish, released yesterday by the Jewish Federation in the Bay Area.

When 18-34 year olds are asked if they’re “very attached” to Israel, only 11 percent say yes, compared to 25 percent of those 50 and older. Is a Jewish state very important? 37 percent of the young say yes. Only 40 percent of the young are “comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state.”

Ask the same questions among those 50-64, and the numbers are, 61 percent regard a Jewish state as very important, and 64 percent are comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state. Zionism is age-related, of course: Over 65, that number is 73 percent comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state.

Among the “very liberal,” only 45 percent are comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state, only 17 percent are very attached to Israel, and 44 percent think that a “Jewish state is very important.” The numbers among very conservatives are 76, 32, and 68 percent.

Intermarriage affects these attitudes, of course. In-group couples are, by 54 percent to 4 percent, more sympathetic to Israel than Palestinians. But mixed couples are more sympathetic to Israel than Palestinians, by much less, 36 percent to 7 percent.

Haaretz has the right headline: vast numbers of progressive California Jews are disengaging from Israel.

Other tidbits: Among 18-34-year-olds, the intermarriage rate is a whopping 66 percent, compared to 42 percent of those over 65.

The affluent are far more Jewishly-engaged. This would seem to be an indication of age– older=richer. They are also the bastions of the Israel lobby.

Then there are the unaffiliated, who make up 43 percent of the sample. Only 8 percent of them say they are “very attached” to Israel. They sympathize with Israel more than Palestinians, as every other grouping in the survey does; but the number isn’t overwhelming, it’s 32-11, with 58 percent saying they’re not sure, or sympathize equally with both.

Thanks to Annie Robbins.

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145 Responses

  1. annie
    annie
    February 15, 2018, 11:58 am

    amazing statistics. kinds blows the idea of what “most jews” think (at least here in the bay area) right out of the water. especially this in the 18-to-34 yr-old demographic:

    Only 40 percent of the young are “comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state.”

    the implication being, 60% are uncomfortable with the very idea of a jewish state. granted, we don’t know how many are merely neutral vs uncomfortable. but still, if a person can’t say they are even comfortable with an idea that doesn’t bode well for neutrality. and of those 40% who do feel “comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state”, only 11 percent described themselves as very attached to Israel.

    contrast this with who is it out there trying to speak for the “Bay Area Jewish Community”. i think Cecilie Surasky was right in 2013, writing in response “local branches of the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee, as well as the Jewish Community Relations Council” claiming — “Bay Area Jewish Community Condemns Deceptive Apartheid Ads”: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/francisco-apartheid-backlash/

    Saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. The Bay Area JCRC, and local offices of the ADL and the AJC, are not synonymous with the “Bay Area Jewish Community.” In fact, while the Jewish Community Relations Council claims to represent Bay Area Jews, they won’t release the number or names of groups they represent. That certainly makes one wonder if the number is embarrassingly small. And it’s likely shrinking. There is no shortage of Jews around here, from a wide political spectrum, who would be appalled to be associated with an attack on a Muslim group for using a word [apartheid] that Israeli officials use regularly.

    so here we are 5 years later and indeed, the numbers they represent, here in the bay area, are embarrassingly small.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      February 15, 2018, 1:05 pm

      Annie,

      All very well and likely true. I get stuck with the All-American basic principle, though: One Dollar, One Vote. All these percentages will mean something if and when we get out of there.

      • annie
        annie
        February 15, 2018, 3:18 pm

        All these percentages will mean something if and when we get out of there.

        as if all these percentages won’t impact if and when we get out of there? plllease.

        i was especially heartened by haaretz’s opening salvo:

        If it remains true that as California goes, so goes the nation, Israeli leaders ought to start worrying.

        they are already worrying. and it’s always been northern california, not southern, in the forefront.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        February 15, 2018, 3:48 pm

        Yes, Annie, lots of things have happened since 1880 or so, lots of movements have come and gone and lots of people were “especially heartened” by divers tribal stirrings along all those years but what has always carried the decision has been One Dollar One Vote period. Big “worries” and still no change except the continual worsening.
        Besides, who really cares for the mood of this 2% of the general population anyway? Even if they were anti-Zionist to a man, which they are very far from, they count for squat –the “Jewish” influence is exclusively in the lobby dollars.

      • annie
        annie
        February 15, 2018, 4:16 pm

        Besides, who really cares for the mood of this 2%

        the lobby, for one. the 2% are not on some island. aside from christian zionists, they represent a segment of the US population most inclined to be pro israel. if you think lobby dollars are “exclusively” what influences government policy, i can’t say i completely agree with you. there needs to be at least some semblance of an appearance of popular opinion supporting US policy for many things, including war.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 16, 2018, 10:20 am

        ECHINOCOCCUS- “…the “Jewish” influence is exclusively in the lobby dollars.”

        Change “exclusively” to “primarily” and expand “lobby” to include all Zionist influence and I agree completely. The most significant aspect of our society is the monetization of power.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 16, 2018, 11:32 am

        ANNIE- ” the 2% are not on some island. aside from christian zionists, they represent a segment of the US population most inclined to be pro israel.”

        Yes, but the US population doesn’t set policy, the elites do. And the “liberal” Jewish Democrats are solid Democrats and will vote for the Democratic candidate regardless of policy. They are no more likely to revolt at the polls than the non-Jewish population, perhaps less so. How else to explain the extreme militarism of the Clinton Democrats? Besides, we have entered the era of identity politics where the active segment of the US population is distracted by diversionary issues. If there was even a smidgen of sanity in politics, the Democrats and the “liberal” media would have been run out of town long ago over this Russiagate insanity.

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 2:06 pm

        the US population doesn’t set policy, the elites do.

        i agree keith. and i say that as someone completely sickened by the dem party too. but i think you’re missing the point i was trying to make when i wrote “there needs to be at least some semblance of an appearance of popular opinion supporting US policy for many things, including war.” this semblance of appearance is what the whole ‘support for israel needs to be bipartisan’ comes from. it can’t become something americans fight over or israel will lose. and the jewish vote (dem or gop) is so small it doesn’t matter. it also doesn’t matter that an “active segment of the US population is distracted by diversionary issues”. what matters is keeping israel out of the discussion and i don’t think we’re going to see that. those clinton dems who keep screaming about russia? i’m not convinced they can win any more presidential elections without (what used to be) the grassroots of the party. and although you may be right “Jewish Democrats are solid Democrats and will vote for the Democratic candidate regardless of policy”, it was this kind of thinking that led to a trump presidency. by the analysts, the media, the pundits .. they kept telling us clinton had it in the bag, but she didn’t. and if the election were held again today, she wouldn’t win today either. but you know what she had? she had “some semblance of an appearance of popular opinion supporting” her. you at least need that to fool people into believing US policy reflects the mood of the country. but if the mood of the country is solidly adverse to what the elites want, it’s not so easy to pull off policy. as a country, i think that’s where we’re heading with israel. when 70% of dems support sanctions against israel, there are only 3 ways that can go. stagnant (i don’t buy that), more progressive support for israel (i don’t buy that) or less support (that’s the trend). so what happens when 80 or 85% of dems support sanctions? do you think that bodes well for the unity of the dem party? because i don’t.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 16, 2018, 5:15 pm

        ANNIE- ” but if the mood of the country is solidly adverse to what the elites want, it’s not so easy to pull off policy.”

        Aye, there’s the rub! With an elite oriented media I have great difficulty imagining the mood of the country solidly adverse to what the elites want. I have even more difficulty imagining the bulk of the 99% doing anything to substantively oppose the policy. Current militarism and Russiagate two obvious examples of the 99% going along with what the elites want. This is historically consistent. Did the peasants oppose divine right? Hillary and Trump were the two most unpopular people to run for President, yet how many of our fellow citizens protested by voting Third Party? Most Americans favor single payer health care in spite of massive negative propaganda but I am not holding my breath waiting for single payer to arrive anytime soon. Nor a reduction in the military budget. Popular opinion seems to me to becoming less important to the elites who are busy restructuring our society to their liking. We are at the end of the hydrocarbon era of cheap and plentiful energy and the industrial economy which requires massive amounts of cheap energy. Productive capitalism is being replaced by the rentier capitalism of corporate neo-feudalism. Too big a topic to get into in a comment. One of the reasons for Russiagate is that the corporate elites are running out of time to eliminate ALL competition to their plans. Russiagate is but a pretext for destroying Russia as a potential competitor. I predict that if we are alive in ten years the political economy will be significantly different. Hard to predict all of the ramifications including the various means of social control. I am filled with dark foreboding.

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 5:59 pm

        keith, i think your last sentence reflects our different outlooks. although i agree with your many salient points i like to go through life thinking people can make a difference because if i didn’t there’d be no point in being an activist. while you have great difficulty imagining the mood of the country solidly adverse to what the elites want, i notice 70% of dems thinking we should apply sanctions to israel, and i think that’s a big number. albeit, it’s not 99%, but does represent a solid split in the party. and it doesn’t even include the largest demographic of voters, independents who generally more vote dem than gop most of whom have left the party because of the disgust you yourself have articulated.

        so i think we’re in interesting times. we’re in a 2 party system where over 1/2 the party is disgusted with the party. and even tho the media won’t report israel/palestine is important to people, it is. it’s a real bone of contention.

        plus, i really question how many people are solidly behind this belief in russia stealing the election just because the press keeps pushing the idea. anyway, you do not even need a majority of dems not believing this crap, all you need is enough of them to prevent dems from winning. did you read this article https://theintercept.com/2018/01/23/dccc-democratic-primaries-congress-progressives/

        how can this not piss progressives off? so if the dems keep losing it means the country’s policies keeps moving further right. and as that happens my hunch is dem voters, will instinctively move left. i just don’t believe it can go on and on like this without a backlash. if that were not the case you wouldn’t hear the handwringing about israel having to be bipartisan. anyway, i guess i come from a place of believing we’re going to see more and more people come out against israel and that will be reflected at the ballot box.

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 16, 2018, 6:13 pm

        “there are only 3 ways that can go. stagnant (i don’t buy that), more progressive support for israel (i don’t buy that) or less support (that’s the trend)”

        “From the narrow window of my small cell,
        I see trees that are smiling at me
        and rooftops crowded with my family.
        And windows weeping and praying for me.
        From the narrow window of my small cell
        I can see your big cell!”

        Sami Qasim from “talk with the jailer”

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 16, 2018, 7:20 pm

        “The most significant aspect of our society is the monetization of power.”

        Money and power have gone together ever since money was invented.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 16, 2018, 7:31 pm

        ANNIE- “keith, i think your last sentence reflects our different outlooks.”

        Absolutely! My view is based upon a radical interpretation of the implications of fundamental changes I foresee to the political economy at the macro level. For example, I interpret the militarization of the police along with the creation of a surveillance state as indicating that the elites anticipate massive popular discontent with the restructuring of society in spite of the massive propaganda and justification. The intent seems to me to be that there will be no bending to the popular will, rather, dissent will be crushed, which has, to some degree, already occurred. Of course, predicting the future is risky business, particularly during periods of radical transformation. There is no right or wrong answer, simply degrees of probability and different opinions. You are a true progressive, I am a radical dissident, yet we mostly agree on most issues.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 16, 2018, 11:17 pm

        ROHA- “Money and power have gone together ever since money was invented.”

        The King ruled by divine right, not because he was a fat-cat. All societies prior to capitalism were ideologically justified. The King may have been rich but he was rich because he was King. Nowadays, our oligarchic nobility are “Kings” because they are rich. In capitalism, one acquires power by acquiring money. Previously, one acquired money by acquiring power. I am not playing a word game. The difference is significant and profound, not the least of which is that capitalism has an inbuilt ability to co-op the opposition. Also, unlike other systems, the true locus of power is not obvious and frequently hidden. And being controlled by money power seems natural almost voluntary. What many fail to realize is that when the rich get richer they get more powerful. And when the poor get poorer they get weaker. Money isn’t a “thing,” in capitalism it is economic power in fluid form, the primary instrument of social control. The industrial revolution was a true revolution in that control of society shifted from the nobility to the businessmen and financiers who now reign as the new capitalist nobility. The monetization of society is an extremely efficient form of social control.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 17, 2018, 1:54 am

        “plus, i really question how many people are solidly behind this belief in russia stealing the election just because the press keeps pushing the idea.”

        Media pressure resulting in today’s indictments and guilty plea?

      • annie
        annie
        February 17, 2018, 6:05 pm

        Media pressure resulting in today’s indictments and guilty plea?

        sorry but i have not been following this investigation closely. has the investigation determined the election was stolen? i asked someone on twitter today if there were any people who didn’t vote for clinton who now realize they were brainwashed by russia. the person blocked me. it’s their impression that everyone who voted for bernie was brainwashed by russia. so it just makes sense if that had an ounce of truth to it there would at least be a small cadre of dems now seeing the light and admitting they were brainwashed into voting for bernie. but what it seems like to me is all the people who think bernie voters were brainwashed are clinton’s diehard supporters. is there anyone here who believes russia actually stole the election? because it seems to me there were a lot of people, like myself, who just didn’t like clinton. it wasn’t russian propaganda turning me against her.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        February 17, 2018, 9:46 am

        Keith: Money isn’t a “thing,” in capitalism it is economic power in fluid form, the primary instrument of social control.
        ————————

        Well formulated.

        For a somewhat technical political-economic explication of that idea, see:

        “Capital as Power” by Jonathan Nitzan and Shimshon Bichler

        https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj83YrDlq3ZAhXBtVkKHa8kAWEQFggyMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbnarchives.yorku.ca%2F259%2F2%2F20090522_nb_casp_full_indexed.pdf&usg=AOvVaw04TsAFq9ib9bNfJXqATq-p

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 17, 2018, 10:31 am

        SIBIRIAK- “Capital as Power” by Jonathan Nitzan and Shimshon Bichler”

        Wonderful book! I didn’t bother reading their discussion of either classical economics or Marxism as I am already aware that both are essentially ideologies. Nitzan and Bichler, however, felt the need to deal with the weakness of current “theories.” As Doug Henwood has noted, capitalist economists have devoted considerable effort in avoiding the issue of money as power, something most successful businessmen take for granted. One interesting finding is that dominant capital seeks to increase its relative capital accumulation rather than its absolute capital accumulation, something most Marxists are oblivious of. There will be profound changes as we transition from the dynamic capitalism of cheap and abundant energy to the much more static power relations of the rentier economy of corporate neo-feudalism.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 17, 2018, 6:26 pm

        MOOSER- “Media pressure resulting in today’s indictments and guilty plea?”

        Who was indicted and for what? Who pleaded guilty and for what?

        Do you really believe that Russia had undue influence on the last Presidential election? Or that Russia has a relatively large influence on our political system? Are you actually buying in to this McCarthyite hysteria?

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 17, 2018, 6:49 pm

        ANNIE- ” is there anyone here who believes russia actually stole the election?”

        This goes far beyond the election. This nonstop demonization of Russia/Putin is a massive propaganda campaign to justify increased actions designed to destroy Russia as a potential competitor to Imperial hegemony. Much of what is being said is irrational to the point of being ludicrous. And much of it is coming from the so called left. There is an article on Znet titled “Is Donald Trump A Traitor?” which is breathtaking in its irrationality. I quote the first sentence and provide a link.

        “Americans must live with the uncertainty of not knowing whether Trump has the best interests of the United States or those of Russia at heart.” (James Risen) https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/is-donald-trump-a-traitor/

        Risen is a former NYT reporter who now works for the Intercept founded by billionaire Pierre Omidyar. Glen Greenwald works there too, however, he does not seem to be co-opted yet. Pilpul has replaced rationality as public intellectuals earn their living in the time honored fashion of giving the wealthy and powerful what they want. And what the Deep State wants is Putin out and Russia down. And truth is what works. And loyal Clinton Democrats like Mooser go along.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 8:36 pm

        “And loyal Clinton Democrats like Mooser go along..”

        But Keith, are you not for democracy?? In a democracy people have their freedom to vote for whom ever they choose and not to be bullied or mocked for their choise.

        I have friends who vote for parties, I’d never vote for, but hey, that is how a democracy works. If everyone would vote as you wished, I guess that would be a dictatorship arranged by you then??

      • annie
        annie
        February 18, 2018, 12:39 am

        “And loyal Clinton Democrats like Mooser go along..”

        But Keith, are you not for democracy?? In a democracy people have their freedom to vote for whom ever they choose and not to be bullied or mocked for their choice.

        not sure you’re understanding what “going along” in this context may mean kaisa. on twitter the russian hysteria is in full tilt. the pro clintonites are in total blame mode of sanders voters saying crazy things like we were all brainwashed by russia. the exact opposite of “people have their freedom to vote for whom ever they choose and not to be bullied or mocked for their choice.” plus, most recently they are claiming russia was trying to help sanders and blaming him for russia w/headlines like usatoday “Indictment: Russia also helped Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein in election” and “Sanders silent on claim that Russians backed him in 2016 – POLITICO”.

        they have not left the election behind at all, they refuse to take any blame for hoisting an unpopular candidate on the electorate, they refuse to even recognize she was unpopular. to many of them, it was all about russia brainwashing people who voted for bernie. just crazy. someone on twitter today claimed the sanders rallies were “the same people bused in from other cities at every rally like it was a Grateful Dead tour. Funny how that never translated into voters.”

        ? i think the locals came out to see him. now they are claiming those rallies were all the same people. you can’t just deny a whole movement. and i am not implying i’ve noticed mooser harassing anyone around here. but this is not an example of democracy — what’s going on in the dem party. more like the opposite.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 9:04 pm

        Money has brought power even when kings ruled by right. But I agree that
        ” The industrial revolution was a true revolution in that control of society shifted from the nobility to the businessmen and financiers who now reign as the new capitalist nobility.”

        Or, as Chesterton put it:

        “But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain.
        He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
        He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
        Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
        Come back in shining shapes at last to spil his last carouse:
        We only know the last sad squires ride slowly towards the sea,
        And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.

        They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
        Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
        They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
        They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
        And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
        Their doors are shut in the evening; and they know no songs.”

        But I’m not entirely convinced that they are unhappy, and I don’t see much pity.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 10:00 pm

        Keith, here is a comment on Chesterton and Brexit

        http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/07/01/did-gk-chesterton-really-predict-brexit/

        You don’t have to be a Catholic.

        It includes useful links, one of them to this:

        https://www.chesterton.org/democracy-and-industrialism/

        and another to this:

        http://chestertonwritings.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/why-i-am-not-socialist-january-04-1908.html

        (A tough read for an old Socialist like me.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 10:40 pm

        Keith, just today, from the Department of “Well, duuuh!”:

        https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/04/16/The-US-is-not-a-democracy-but-an-oligarchy-study-concludes/2761397680051/

        “The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence,”

        (And Australia is, of course, completely different.)

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        February 18, 2018, 1:41 am

        Keith: This goes far beyond the election. This nonstop demonization of Russia/Putin is a massive propaganda campaign to justify increased actions designed to destroy Russia as a potential competitor to Imperial hegemony.
        ————————

        I agree. And whether Russia is a truly serious competitor or not, promoting Russia as the great Enemy of the West has many purposes (eg. justifying NATO expansion, nuclear weapons expansion, increased military budgets, arms sales , continued U.S. political-military leadership in Europe, neoliberalization of Eastern Europe, intervention in Ukraine, war in Syria, as well as blaming Russia for various manifestations of populist opposition to neoliberalism, discrediting dissenters as dupes of Russia propaganda, and instituting new systems of media censorship.)

        On the nefarious role of think tanks such as the “Alliance for Securing Democracy” see:

        Threads of Establishment Russia Narrative Trace Back to Neocon Think Tanks
        https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/01/30/threads-of-establishment-russia-narrative-trace-back-to-neocon-think-tanks/

        Meet The Cabal That Are Framing Domestic American Activism As “Russian Influence” and “Fake News”

        https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/meet-the-cabal-that-are-framing-domestic-american-activism-as-russian-influence-and-fake-news/

        And this deserves consideration:

        Mueller Indictment – The “Russian Influence” Is A Commercial Marketing Scheme
        http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/02/mueller-indictement-the-russian-influence-is-a-commercial-marketing-scheme.html

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 2:34 am

        “i am not implying i’ve noticed mooser harassing anyone around here.”

        Thank you, “Annie”. I’ve been trying extra-hard not to, and thanx for noticing. And I won’t descend into “I-told-you-so” later on, either. I’ve already decided that. But if I do, let me know.

      • annie
        annie
        February 18, 2018, 12:28 pm

        speaking of i told you sos, i intercepted an andrea mitchell tweet yesterday

        https://twitter.com/mitchellreports/status/964569350303870976

        #rosenstein: no allegation any American aware of what Russians were doing. No allegation Russian operation changed the election outcome.
        This is reminder Americans should be careful about what they read online

        and then there’s this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-indictment-2016-elections-rod-rosenstein-announcement-today-2018-02-16/

        the indictments did not allege cooperation or collusion with Trump campaign.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 3:09 am

        “Americans must live with the uncertainty of not knowing whether Trump has the best interests of the United States or those of Russia at heart.” (James Risen)

        Wow, they are really reaching and getting irrational about Trump.
        Donald Trump ran on a “Make America Great Again” platform. Only desperation or irrationality can connect Trump to Russia.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        February 18, 2018, 4:39 am

        Roha, is the casual inclusion of the questionable line “clutching to the cringing Jew” supposed to impress people with the mere accidental reference or would other inferences be more appropriate?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 18, 2018, 5:39 am

        Thanks Annie for clarification! My thought rather was that if the system is “rotten”, it isn’t usefull to blame the co-voters – they just choose from the canidates they’ve been given – and as it looks like to me, the problem in U.S. is in the system. Anyway, thanks!

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 18, 2018, 11:43 am

        KAISA OF FINLAND- “But Keith, are you not for democracy??”

        Sounds like a good idea. Perhaps if we had real democracy in the US things would be different. As it is, the economic elites call the shots, elections a marketing extravaganza. It takes real talent to miss the fact that we are an elite run society.

        KAISA OF FINLAND- “In a democracy people have their freedom to vote for whom ever they choose and not to be bullied or mocked for their choise.”

        Yes, and Trump won. However, the Clinton Democrats, the CIA, Soros and the “liberal” media are ludicrously claiming that the Russians elected Trump. Trump voters depicted as stupid and racist, a basket of deplorables. Pretty sad, huh? But it goes beyond that. This is a demonization campaign against Russia and Putin that is a dangerous pretext for aggression and confrontation. As a concerned citizen I have an obligation to speak out against this irrational militarism and war mongering. Why do you have a problem with that?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 18, 2018, 1:04 pm

        Keith:

        As I see it, if the system is rotten, wouldn’t it me more usefull for everyone to try to “ally” with as many other “non-elite” voters as possible and oppose the whole system together, demand a change of the whole system.

        I am only happy for our “multiparty” system, where the votes will always be shared among several different parties and the power can not “accumulate” to certain few of the privileged. I can warmly recommend it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 1:27 pm

        ” with the mere accidental reference or would other inferences be more appropriate”

        Ask Chesterton, the guy who wrote it.

      • amigo
        amigo
        February 18, 2018, 2:20 pm

        “Roha, is the casual inclusion of the questionable line “clutching to the cringing Jew” supposed to impress people with the mere accidental reference or would other inferences be more appropriate?” yonah

        Desperately seeking antisemites again Yonah.

        I believe they are next door chowing down on White Bread and Mayo.

        ” imagine, sitting and eating white bread and mayonnaise with your neighbors, but then going home and chowing down on some pastrami on rye, mit a pickle and chicken soup, when the shades are down and nobody knows” Yonah Fredman

        http://mondoweiss.net/2017/07/israeli-solomon-schechter/

        Go look in the mirror Yonah and you will see the racist you are so desperately seeking.

      • eljay
        eljay
        February 18, 2018, 4:21 pm

        || yonah fredman: Roha, is the casual inclusion of the questionable line “clutching to the cringing Jew” supposed to impress people with the mere accidental reference or would other inferences be more appropriate? ||

        Let’s not forget the casual inclusion of the questionable line “leaning on the staggering lawyer”. I can only imagine what inferences that one conjures in, say, Jackdaw’s mind.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 18, 2018, 5:36 pm

        Yonah, nothing casual about it. Chesterton wrote it, and I couldn’t omit it without destroying the rhythm and losing the rhyme for “Waterloo”. (I had already omitted the line that gives the rhyme for “pain”, and that was damage enough.)

        The whole poem is called “The Secret People”. It is English history from the perspective of the lower classes.

        “It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
        God’s scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.”

        Read it. Easy to find online.

        Here’s a link to Chesterton. A lot of good stuff here.

        http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/g__k__chesterton/poems

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        February 18, 2018, 6:06 pm

        RoHa,

        Rhyme, rhythm, literature, shmitrature… those aren’t values to the Zionist species. He just wants to know if it’s good for the Jews or bad for the Jews.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 18, 2018, 6:25 pm

        SIBIRIAK- “Mueller Indictment – The “Russian Influence” Is A Commercial Marketing Scheme”

        Yes, and notice how Mueller, et al, are conflating small scale internet fraud by some Russians with an orchestrated campaign against our political system. Was Mueller tasked with investigating social media fraud? No, but the faithful Clintonite followers will run around crowing about indictments even as they avoid the substance of these indictments and the lack of evidence for what they are implying through deception. All the while truly disasterous policies sail through with bipartisan support and little meaningful comment. People believe what they want to believe and defend the group meme even when ludicrous. Even “progressive” icon Bernie “sheep dog” Sanders has piled on: “It has been clear to everyone (except Donald Trump) that Russia was deeply involved in the 2016 election and intends to be involved in 2018. It is the American people who should be deciding the political future of our country, not Mr. Putin and the Russian oligarchs.” https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/964596068435595264

        I could be wrong, but I believe that we have actually passed the irrational McCarthyite hysteria of the cold war as public opinion is molded with astonishing uniformity among those in the doctrinal system. I have difficulty believing that folks such as Bernie Sanders actually believe this BS. If one were to rank foreign nations regarding influence on the US political economy, Russia would be way down the list. It takes big bucks and massive organization to have influence on US policy and Russia, with an economy about half the size of France, can’t compete and would be foolish to try in view of the relevant history. A similar situation exists in regards to progressive NGOs. It takes a lot of money to be even minimally effective, hence, the importance of fundraising. Soon, however, the means become the end as fundraising becomes the primary organizational mission. As a consequence, the system is relatively immune to change from anyone other than fat-cats and their corporations.

        PS- I never supported Bernie Sanders because I knew right from the get-go that he was a Democratic sheep dog trying to lure the youth back to the Democratic Party. His “bold positions” were talk, nothing more. Yet, Norman Finkelstein worships the ground Bernie walks upon. Go figure.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 18, 2018, 7:27 pm

        “Rhyme, rhythm, literature, shmitrature… those aren’t values to the Zionist species.”

        Another point against Zionism.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        February 19, 2018, 5:44 am

        Keith,

        I never supported Bernie Sanders because I knew right from the get-go that he was a Democratic sheep dog… Yet, Norman Finkelstein worships the ground Bernie walks upon. Go figure.

        No need to figure anything: when you follow Finkelstein, it soon becomes obvious that he is an incurable Dim who expects the Democrat ownership to change its spots and the waters to part.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 19, 2018, 1:02 pm

        ” imagine, sitting and eating white bread and mayonnaise with your neighbors, but then going home…” “yonah”

        And then going home, never suspecting that your goyische neighbor removed the bacon, and the lettuce and tomato it touched, to avoid offending your Kosher sensibilities.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        March 3, 2018, 10:47 am

        Keith: This nonstop demonization of Russia/Putin is a massive propaganda campaign to justify increased actions designed to destroy Russia as a potential competitor to Imperial hegemony.
        ————————————-

        Btw, you might want to read Putin’s latest speech– it provides some insight into his political program and leadership style.

        http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/56957

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 3, 2018, 3:29 pm

        SIBIRIAK- “Btw, you might want to read Putin’s latest speech– it provides some insight into his political program and leadership style.”

        Putin deserves a lot of credit for saving Russia from the legacy of Yeltsin and Wall Street. Having said that, he has some serious flaws. He is a global warming denier and he has not transformed the system enough. He is a one man show and when he goes it could all come crashing down unless more substantive changes are in the near offing.

        Thanks for the link, but I don’t read any politician’s speeches. Actions speak louder than words, the words usually meant to distract.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 4, 2018, 3:21 am

        As far as I can tell, Putin does not deny Global Warming. On the contrary, he welcomes it as good for Russia. He does, however, seem to doubt that it is anything but natural.

        Perhaps his scientists have informed him about how shaky the “Man Made” story is.

        Perhaps he is aware that that the “Man Made” story was pushed into international politics by Thatcher, who then funded the Hadley Centre to cook up find evidence to support the idea.

        Perhaps he has also noticed that the policies based on this dud science are almost uniformly bad for the poor and detrimental to the environment. They do, however, channel huge quantities of public funds into the hands of the rich elite.

        (In spite of the right-wing – Thatcher and Gore – background, and the damage the idea has done, progressives cling to it as an article of faith and heap abuse on anyone who doubts it. I don’t know why. Perhaps Sagan does.

        https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/85171-one-of-the-saddest-lessons-of-history-is-this-if
        )

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 4, 2018, 3:18 pm

        ROHA- “Perhaps his scientists have informed him about how shaky the “Man Made” story is.”

        Where do you get this crap? Why no citations or links? Too embarassed to link to Lord Monckton? To continue to deny the obvious in 2018, with CO2 concentrations going through the roof, with the hottest 18 years on record being the last 17 plus 1998, with all of the reputable scientific organizations in substantial agreement, your comment puts you on a par with creationists (some of whom have PhDs) claiming that evolution is an unproven theory. Anyone can, with a little effort, locate websites which will tell them what they want to hear. The question is why? Below I link to the IPCC 5 year summary report of 2014 and to the NOAA report for 2017. This is the official peer reviewed status which reinforces the common sense conclusion that when you increase the concentration of heat trapping gasses that the temprature will increase. Not anthropogenic? Do you have an alternate explanation which is supported by scientific evidence?

        IPCC- 5 year summary 2014- http://ar5-syr.ipcc.ch/topic_summary.php
        NOAA- https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201713

        ROHA- “Perhaps he is aware that that the “Man Made” story was pushed into international politics by Thatcher….”

        Margaret Thatcher is responsible for a climate change hoax? The IPCC and NOAA are Thatcherite organizations? It is comments like this which give conspiracy theory a bad name. I am of the opinion that we are on the verge of runaway global warming. Way too much CO2, melting Artic sea ice and likely increased methane emissions will be mutually reinforcing. The rate of warming is increasing and may soon be beyond the ecosystem’s ability to adapt. I leave you with a timely quote and link.

        “Temperatures may have soared as high as 35 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) at the pole, according to the U.S. Global Forecast System model. While there are no direct measurements of temperature there, Zack Labe, a climate scientist working on his PhD at the University of California at Irvine, confirmed that several independent analyses showed “it was very close to freezing,” which is more than 50 degrees (30 degrees Celsius) above normal.
        ….
        Graham explained that these warming events are related to the decline of winter sea ice in the Arctic, noting that January’s ice extent was the lowest on record. “As the sea ice is melting and thinning, it is becoming more vulnerable to these winter storms,” he explained. “The thinner ice drifts more quickly and can break up into smaller pieces. The strong winds from the south can push the ice further north into the Central Arctic, exposing the open water and releasing heat to the atmosphere from the ocean.”

        Scientists were shocked in recent days to discover open water north of Greenland, an area normally covered by old, very thick ice. “This has me more worried than the warm temps in the Arctic right now,” tweeted Mike MacFerrin, an ice sheet specialist at the University of Colorado.” (Jason Samenow) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2018/02/26/north-pole-surges-above-freezing-in-the-dead-of-winter-stunning-scientists/?utm_term=.e1645410e441

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 6, 2018, 1:54 am

        Keith

        For your education:

        http://www.john-daly.com/history.htm

        Detailed. Anti-Thatcher.

        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7823477/Was-Margaret-Thatcher-the-first-climate-sceptic.html

        Brief. Pro-Thatcher. Describes her change of mind, admits it was too late.

        The panicky bits you put in italics demonstrate nothing about the cause of warming. Putin suggests it is a natural process that we should adapt to.

        More later.

      • Keith
        Keith
        March 6, 2018, 1:10 pm

        ROHA- “For your education:”

        We are off topic and this will be my last response. Those who wish to follow you down the rabbit hole will do so, sane folks will not. Like I said, anyone, with a little effort, can find stuff on the internet to validate their bias. I link to the IPCC and NOAA and the results of PEER REVIEWED science. You link to some numbnuts global warming denier (to deny the anthropogenic nature makes you a denier). Got any peer reviewed articles from NATURE to make your case? Hell, you even deny the consequences of increased CO2 concentrations. The climate has been very stable for about the last 10,000 years, natural forces in balance. Suddenly, humans emit massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, the rate of increased concentration of CO2 unprecedented. The correlation rather obvious. The facts are there for those willing to see. Yet, you choose to deny. Your choice, pal. But, Jeez, drop the Thatcher insanity. She was a political gofer, nothing more. The corporations run the world, the financiers the top dogs.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 6, 2018, 2:11 pm

        “Keith” are you taking into account that “RoHa” lives in Australia? Everything is ass-bale-backwards down there.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 8, 2018, 3:44 am

        I apologise to the mods for including links to scientific papers.

        It is off topic. I don’t know why you bring it up.

        Something new. Thatcher history denial! I’ve never seen anyone suggest that Thatcher had no influence before.

        “your comment puts you on a par with creationists”
        Leave the smears to the Zionists. They are beneath you.

        You seem to be under the impression that the only doubts about the CO2 + water vapour feedback hypothesis are found in a few websites.
        In fact, there is a lot of work published in academic journals (yes, peer reviewed) that casts doubt on various aspects of the hypothesis. (Examples below.)

        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412008001232

        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921818112001658

        The most important is that which suggests, on the basis of empirical data, that predictions made on the basis of the hypothesis are false.
        (Falsification of predictions shows that the hypothesis is wrong. Successful predictions do not show it is right, though they do give confidence in it.)

        Two examples are the prediction of the “hot spot” and the prediction of decreased outgoing radiation as temperature increases. The “hot spot” simply isn’t there (even when the data is tortured to insensibility) and the outgoing radiation appears to increase.
        One on the “hot spot”.

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.1651/abstract
        Outgoing radiation.

        http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf

        “Do you have an alternate explanation which is supported by scientific evidence?”

        It is logical error to believe one explanation because you do not have another. However, there is an obvious null hypothesis. There is an abundance of evidence from all over the world (even NZ) for natural climate change. (Mediaeval warming and Little Ice Age cooling.)

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2016JC012458/abstract;jsessionid=3E09EF629F0463154DD0241814C69023.f04t03

        https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-16-0526.1

        Since the IPCC models appear to fail, I, and, it seems, Putin, think the null hypothesis is still the reasonable option. (I know this is not the fashionable position, but groupthink and bandwagon have no appeal.)

        And, when I look at the policies based on the “man-made” hypothesis, I think it is the sensible option as well.

        However, we do agree that no more should be said about it on MW.

    • amigo
      amigo
      February 15, 2018, 2:00 pm

      “so here we are 5 years later and indeed, the numbers they represent, here in the bay area, are embarrassingly small.” Annie Robbins.

      From a zionist perspective they should be embarassing but zionists by nature will adopt their usual , denial , denial stance and bury their collective heads in the dead sea.

      From my perspective , these numbers are tantalisingly small.May they continue to decline , exponentially.

      Thanks for the report.

      • annie
        annie
        February 15, 2018, 3:22 pm

        but zionists by nature will adopt their usual , denial , denial stance and bury their collective heads

        it doesn’t matter, ignore them or better yet remind them over and over they are not the voice of the jewish american community. tell them they speak for a marginal demographic of jewish americans that is shrinking as we speak. it won’t shut them up but someone needs to put them in their place.

      • Ozma
        Ozma
        February 16, 2018, 12:31 pm

        One dollar one vote is how America runs its political policy, but it isn’t how Israel gets its armies of volunteers to move to there. Israel demands a steady supply of immigrants who are willing accept higher prices, lower wages, a Russian roulette foreign policy, and forced military service.
        Right now their Birthright cruises are a lot like love-bombing, the Moonie recruitment method. It’s unlikely that Bibi’s “charm” is going to attract the computer start up companies that can keep Israel economically successful. Not even the big funders of Israel live there.

      • amigo
        amigo
        February 19, 2018, 3:20 pm

        “And then going home, never suspecting that your goyische neighbor removed the bacon, and the lettuce and tomato it touched, to avoid offending your Kosher sensibilities.”Mooser.

        Very funny.

        Cruel , though.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 19, 2018, 4:04 pm

        “Very funny..”

        It actually happened to me once, a long time ago, but with a ham.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      February 16, 2018, 10:37 am

      @Annie Robbins

      http://www.palestinechronicle.com/boomerang-effect-netanyahu-made-israel-american-issue-lost/

      “The Boomerang Effect: How Netanyahu Made Israel an American Issue, and Lost”
      The Palestine Chronicle, Feb. 14/18
      By Ramzy Baroud

      EXCERPTS:
      “Despite massive sums of money spent to channel public opinion in the United States in favor of Israel, unmistakable trends in opinion polls are attesting to the changing dynamics of Israel’s support among ordinary Americans.

      “Not only is Israel losing its support and overall appeal among large sections of American society, but among young American Jews, as well – a particularity worrying phenomena for the Israeli government.

      “The trend promises to be a lasting one, since it has been in the making for years, starting some time after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.”

      “It was on that date that the affinity between Israel and the US purportedly grew to unprecedented levels, since both countries claimed to be fighting ‘Islamic terror.’ In reality, the attacks, the ensuing media discourse and subsequent wars have all coagulated the support of Christian Evangelists behind Israel, as they saw the widening conflict in the Middle East as part of a long-awaited prophecy.

      “It was precisely then that the support of Israel by American Liberals, especially those identifying with the Democratic Party, began to weaken.

      “With time, supporting or not supporting Israel became a partisan issue, which is, itself, unprecedented.

      “While the Israeli government under Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, exploited every opportunity to maximize support for Israel in order to achieve objectives deemed important by the Israeli right wing, ultra-right and religious parties, Netanyahu’s conceited and confrontational style has alienated many Americans, especially Democrats.

      “Worse, Netanyahu’s policies of entrenching the Occupation, blocking any peace efforts and expanding illegal Jewish settlements, also began to shift the kind of support that Israel has historically taken for granted, that of American Jews.”

      “For decades, Israel was considered the only issue that united all Americans regardless of their political and ideological affiliations. That is no longer valid, and Netanyahu has played a major role in this.”

      “Netanyahu has shoved Israel into the heart of polarizing American politics, and although he has achieved his short-term goals (for example, obtaining US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel) he has irrevocably damaged the decades-long consensus on Israel among Americans, and in that there is a great source of hope.”

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      February 16, 2018, 4:17 pm

      @Annie Robbins

      Breaking news:
      Feb. 16/18

      https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/964329047386832896

      “Comedian Sarah Silverman endorses Amnesty call to Free Ahed Tamimi”

      “Jews have to stand up EVEN when — ESPECIALLY when — the wrongdoing is BY Jews/the Israeli government.”

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 6:06 pm

        misterioso, her tweet was from yesterday feb. 15 and i read it then because my friend Russell Khater (@ruskhat) responded to her forwarding many tweets (you can read on the thread) and 2 of them included RT’s of my tweets. so it showed up in my mentions yesterday! great news.

      • eljay
        eljay
        February 16, 2018, 6:12 pm

        || Misterioso: … Breaking news …

        “Comedian Sarah Silverman endorses Amnesty call to Free Ahed Tamimi”

        “Jews have to stand up EVEN when — ESPECIALLY when — the wrongdoing is BY Jews/the Israeli government.” ||

        Kudos to Ms. Silverman.

    • Tuyzentfloot
      Tuyzentfloot
      February 19, 2018, 4:31 am

      Re McCarthyism,
      people seem to have funny ideas about McCarthyism. There was a cold war going on Russia was the enemy. There was a lot of spying going on. It was real. In the current mindset people would think McCarthyism was completely justified.
      But the effect of McCarthyism was drowning out of stifling dissent, killing off critical thinking, fueling the arms race (with the US being the far more powerful player) and empowering a military industrial complex.
      Now you could say the Military Industrial Complex has become very powerful , the mainstream media is more docile than ever and dissident voices only get published in alternative media, or on Russia Today.

      Russiagate quickly blended with Fake News, which is the new Terrorism in that it starts of as something specific but is quickly molded into ‘whatever your opponents do’. The limited meaning of fake news is not even propaganda, but things that are made up out of thin air and passed on as news. It quickly expanded to cover everything that is too understanding of Russia or just dissident and not mainstream. Black Lives Matter, the Intercept, WikiLeaks, Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein are all paid by the Russians. All the best dissident journalists have appeared on Russia Today at some point.

      The main problem with Russiagate is not whether it is true or not, but how it is used to enforce a new cold war consensus. Even if it were all true, even if Russia did much worse things, I believe there would still be a desperate need to deescalate the tension, to listen to the other side and to put serious work in making the nuclear standoff safe. At the moment we’re entirely capable at blowing the whole place up either through escalation or by accident without ever figuring out which tiny mistake caused it. And the Russians have always been open to talk. That may not remain the case.

      At the same time I think there is this excessive eagerness to see Russian conspiracies everywhere and that they are viewed in comparison with a fictitious baseline behavior where Russia should be doing no spying or hacking at all, which doesn’t even happen between countries with the best relationships. So yes, I think Russiagate is a combination of falsehood , exaggeration and paranoid speculation, in short it’s all bullshit. And it wouldn’t even matter if I was wrong on that. Well except that it would hurt my pride.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 19, 2018, 12:39 pm

        “Tuyzentfloot”, could you fill me in on something? What form of government did Russia adopt after the fall of Communism? I’m a little bit fuzzy on that.
        Did they just sort of back down to a democratic socialism, or something else?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 19, 2018, 2:24 pm

        “Did they just sort of back down to a democratic socialism..”

        Heh heh.. (I’ll better stay silent on this subject..)

      • Tuyzentfloot
        Tuyzentfloot
        February 19, 2018, 4:34 pm

        Mooser,
        I’ll type this very slowly so you have the time to let it sink in. I’ll also do some excessive simplification because because this stuff too difficult for me otherwise.

        If you’re the US government and you have this noncompliant regime which you want to break, it is very easy to get well meaning progressives on board. First, because it’s often a nasty regime (most regimes are somehow) you can come up with any incriminating story you want and everyone will gobble it all up. This you can sell to everyone , no need to be progressive. Even better, after a few of these stories it only becomes easier and easier to sell them the next story.

        Secondly, say you’re going to save those poor people suffering under the regime. Which well meaning progressive doesn’t want to save these poor people. You want to get progressives on board to give the enterprise an air of legitimacy. From then you make sure the options remain simple: you only want the best for the people of this nasty regime, but unfortunately there is no other choice than to destroy the regime.

        When a state (or fill in your power player) wants to start saving the people in Afghanistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Iraq , North Korea or Russia then forget it, they’re after something else and progressives are only useful idiots to lend the project some legitimacy. The mainstream media is very complicit in this. You don’t get a career in the media if you don’t implicitly trust the power centers.

        10 years ago there still was a lot of goodwill in Russia towards the west and things could move in the right direction . That was a good thing because everyone got better and you really don’t want them as an enemy. Since then we’ve been going quickly and enthusiastically from bad to worse. I put most of the blame on the West. The chances we’ll find out that we’re handling it wrong aren’t good though, since everyone who even thinks about deviating from the script is now by definition a Putin stooge. And that’s where we are now. At the ‘everyone knows’ stage.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 19, 2018, 6:40 pm

        “Since then we’ve been going quickly and enthusiastically from bad to worse. I put most of the blame on the West”

        That seems like a good description.

  2. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    February 15, 2018, 12:16 pm

    Slow, slow, and not all that positive for Palestinians. A long, tough row to hoe, here.

  3. ckg
    ckg
    February 15, 2018, 1:25 pm

    Marvelous! I don’t think even Frank Luntz could spin this to Israel’s favor. People complain about millennials, but I love ’em.

  4. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    February 15, 2018, 5:47 pm

    I’ve been following this since Jesse Jackson and Hymietown and at the time, particularly with his successes 4 years later in the early primaries, it seemed that the democratic party was moving in an antizionist direction in a big way. It didn’t happen.

    I think the best thing that happened the last 9 years in the middle east is what didn’t happen, an open war: attack by israel on iran’s nuclear program by bombs released by Israeli jets. the avoidance of that was an accomplishment, certainly one that still threatens in the looming future and in the proxy (?) present.

    i never thought that frisco was the harbinger of the future for either america or american jews. i think of “if you’re going to san francisco” and shlomo carlebach (google him) and his house of love and prayer and my year in southern california and one visit up to frisco. i do not consider san francisco the wave of the american future or the american present. gadfly, most likely. model, since when?

    • annie
      annie
      February 15, 2018, 7:42 pm

      i never thought that frisco was the harbinger of the future for either america or american jews.

      according to the data presented in the poll, the bay area hosts the largest percentage of jewish americans w/graduate degrees (42%, and 52% for 35- 49 yr olds) — vs jewish population nationally (25%). plus, the adult jewish population in the east bay has grown by one THIRD since the 2011 study, which is somewhat astonishing. the bay area is considered an opportune destination by lots of people. we lead the nation in many many ways. have you ever been here? the bay area is not just san francisco. it’s a lifestyle choice.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      February 16, 2018, 1:29 am

      ” gadfly, most likely. model, since when?”

      “yonah” any time you want to show us a survey which shows anything substantially different than ever-receding support for Zionism among Jews in America, feel free.

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 3:23 am

        gadfly, like n’orleans was/is a gadfly. totally dispensable if the stars align.

    • John O
      John O
      February 16, 2018, 5:16 am

      “what didn’t happen, an open war: attack by israel on iran’s nuclear program by bombs released by Israeli jets. the avoidance of that was an accomplishment …”

      Not really. Even Israel’s powerful military does not have the capacity to hit Iran’s nuclear facilities other than with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. If there’s any accomplishment, it’s due to the Americans, who have refused to supply Israel with their biggest conventional bombs and the heavy bombers needed to deliver them.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 16, 2018, 2:09 pm

        “what didn’t happen, an open war: attack by israel on iran’s nuclear program by bombs released by Israeli jets. the avoidance of that was an accomplishment …”. “yonah fredman”

        It’s a simple little system, which any child can understand: You owe Israel if it gets in a war, and you owe Israel for not getting in a war.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      February 16, 2018, 10:57 am

      @Annie Robbins

      Support for the entity known as “Israel” is on an irreversible, accelerating downward slide in the U.S. (and around the world.) Americans, especially youth, including enlightened Jews, are increasingly angry at being played for suckers by Zionist racist, fascistic thugs and their bought and paid for U.S. politicians. Needless to say, this change has come about in large measure by the ease at which the horrible reality of the “Israel” – Palestinian conflict can be learned and viewed thanks to today’s communication technology, e.g., the Internet. It’s only the beginning!!

  5. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    February 16, 2018, 7:03 am

    my zionist cousin says the democratic party already abandoned israel by not attending netanyahu’s speech and backing the iran deal.

    san francisco is a useful measure of the so called grass roots progressive wing of the democratic party.

    the bifurcation of american jews into orthodox versus intermarrieds, with a small portion in the middle ground does not bode well for american liberal jewish support for israel.

    the turmoil of the arab world works against the arab world in the american mind, therefore as long as israel does not start a real war against iran, the issue is likely to simmer and appeal to activists, but the broad swath of america does not care. the world is messy and the middle east is even messier and the pentagon is bloated, but if we’re spending money on a military in any case, then middle east realism should be the way to go. pro palestinians might have a case to make to the realists, but the region is so messed up, that their cause is lost in the general chaos. It is not realism but anti colonialism, to use a phrase, that is the ideology that appeals to more people on the palestine issue. and anticolonialism would fit in an “identity” category rather than an “american” category.

    • annie
      annie
      February 16, 2018, 12:00 pm

      anti colonialism … is the ideology that appeals to more people on the palestine issue. and anticolonialism would fit in an “identity” category rather than an “american” category.

      what?

      the world is messy and the middle east is even messier and the pentagon is bloated, but if we’re spending money on a military in any case, then middle east realism should be the way to go.

      what?

      as long as israel does not start a real war against iran, the issue is likely to simmer and appeal to activists, but the broad swath of america does not care.

      the talking pt used to be ‘the vast majority’ of americans support israel. now it’s “the broad swath” doesn’t care. we’ll see about that. all that handwringing over the requirement israel retain bipartisan support. let’s hope your zionist cousin is on to something.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 16, 2018, 1:59 pm

        “what?…what?”

        Notice the depth to which the parsing has sunk into the blubbering on a hot subject.

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 2:10 pm

        oh yeah, i noticed mooser.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 16, 2018, 2:22 pm

        “oh yeah, i noticed mooser.”

        Indeed, a dreadful business. I hope “yonah” doesn’t end up like that poor Abernetty family.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        February 16, 2018, 6:24 pm

        if communication is not an ideal, not even a value, it becomes difficult. you excel at talking at someone and about someone. but people who are on the opposite side of you on the israel palestine issue, you are speaking to your choir and not to me.

        which is fine.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 17, 2018, 1:21 am

        “on the opposite side of you on the israel palestine issue”

        How are we on “opposite sides”, “yonah”? We are both Jewish, and both of us concerned about Jewish survival.

        And if ‘communication’ is your ideal, “yonah”, why are your posts so hard to understand? Why not make them direct, and easy to understand, so you can ‘communicate’?

      • eljay
        eljay
        February 17, 2018, 8:51 am

        || Mooser: … And if ‘communication’ is your ideal, “yonah”, why are your posts so hard to understand? Why not make them direct, and easy to understand, so you can ‘communicate’? ||

        Maybe he’s doing “dialog” (sic).

  6. ritzl
    ritzl
    February 16, 2018, 11:51 am

    Great trend.

    One thing I’m curious about, given these age-dependent differences, is what happens when the young respondents age. There has been this kind of young-old discrepancy for many years, not this large, but the same pattern. Do young Jews increase their support for Israel as they get older?

    I’ve never seen a poll that tracks individual sentiment on this topic over a period of years. The like-to-like age group sentiment presented here says a lot, but I guess it would also be interesting/compounding/solidifying to get insight into the changing attitudes of individuals over time.

    • annie
      annie
      February 16, 2018, 12:45 pm

      ritzl, i’ve heard the argument people get more conservative towards israel as they age but i don’t buy it. i think the reason we see the percentages we do, all trending in one direction, is because as old die off they are being replaced by a less pro israel generation. and each successive generation replacing the one in front of it is more progressive.

      the poll analysts don’t exactly see it that way. instead of ‘more progressive’ they see them as “substantially less engaged” or “less likely to be very attached to Israel”. that sounds like a rather passive stance, similar to yonah’s “does not care” framing. this is not nearly as scary as the idea that they [younger generation] do care, but that their caring doesn’t translate into “support”. iow, instead of ‘less engaged’ what happens when/if the younger generation becomes actively engaged — in ending apartheid? and maybe i’m just a wishful thinker, but i suspect this is more likely what’s pushing the trend vs the passive ‘less engaged’.

      • John O
        John O
        February 16, 2018, 3:10 pm

        You’re surely right, Annie.

        We have a similar issue here in the UK, following the catastrophic decision to leave the European Union. Older folk tended to vote to leave (not all of them – I’m 66 and as staunch a Remainer as anybody). But a huge source of anger for us Remainers is the fact that so many oldies never gave a thought to what they were doing – or how much of an embarrassment they were – to their grandchildren.

        Blind support for Israel, despite its obvious folly and – given Israel’s treatment of Palestinians – its immorality, is alienating the younger generation at an ever-increasing rate, with those older folk not giving a damn about the mess they are bequeathing to the young, and the young – and who can blame them? – simply walking away from their “tribe”.

      • annie
        annie
        February 16, 2018, 6:23 pm

        i have to admit john, to not being fully informed of all the pros and cons of brexit. as a brit there’s probably a lot of info one already understands about being part of the EU even before the brexit movement started vs what an american might know. (i sort of imagine it like having a choice of whether california might be better off as it’s own country, and i do think we pay a heck of a lot more into the fed system than we get back both financially and in terms of fed policy, so as a californian i might opt to vote for an exit.. but of course i wouldn’t want to start a war w/the rest of the country over it, like the confederate states) and once it started there was even more information. whereas, as an american i don’t really know the advantages like you would. and my hunch is it might not be as obvious in terms of right and wrong as looking at i/p. so “never gave a thought to what they were doing” might not necessarily be the reason they all voted as they did. one might imagine being part of the EU would make ones impact as a brit having even less of a voice. i just don’t know. but i’ve heard, like most governments, the EU is run from the top and changing policy is more challenging than changing it within a country. i don’t know. i’m sure it has to do with trade and immigration and everything. maybe you can explain to me (us) why you and so many young people are staunch remainers.

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        February 16, 2018, 4:26 pm

        @John O

        Speaking of the “UK,” here’s a burst of sunshine:

        http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/liverpool-fans-embrace-mohamed-salah-muslim-chant-180216105515770.html

        EXCERPT:
        “Liverpool Football Club fans have embraced Mohamed Salah, an Egyptian player, with a new chant that celebrates the 25-year-old forward’s faith.

        “‘Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, if he’s good enough for you, he’s good enough for me, if he scores another few, then I’ll be Muslim too,’ fans have been filmed chanting from the stadiums to the pubs as they watch Salah’s footwork at play.

        “The rhyme continues: ‘He’s sitting in the mosque, that’s where I want to be.’

        “Saleh, who also plays for Egypt’s national team, is quickly becoming a darling of the English football community.

        “In 2017, he was named the BBC’s African Footballer of the Year.

        “On Wednesday, he became the thirteenth player in Liverpool FC’s 125-year history to score his 30th goal in a season in a match against Porto, prompting some to compare Salah with Argentina’s footballing legend, Lionel Messi.”

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        February 16, 2018, 5:55 pm

        I agree, Annie. Israel was housetrained when older Jews were growing up, hence the bonding. Or at least the sick stuff was covered. Now Israel is rabid and it cannot be covered up. As the old Dersh cohort dies off it is not being replaced. Hebrew now is a traua language. North Korea is similar to israel. Based on war trauma.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 16, 2018, 6:49 pm

        If Muslims can find a way of fitting pubs and football into Islam, it won’t just be Liverpool that gets conquered.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 16, 2018, 7:00 pm

        ” the fact that so many oldies never gave a thought to what they were doing to their grandchildren.”

        You are assuming (a) Brexit is a Bad Thing, and (b) the oldies didn’t care.

        Regardless of the truth of (a), does it not seem possible to you that, after many years of experience of the EU, those oldies decided (mistakenly, you would say) that leaving was the best thing they could do for their grandchildren?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 16, 2018, 7:23 pm

        Annie:

        I have to join the discussion just to say, that EU is not comparable with U.S. It is not a federation and each country has its own solutions in many cases (like their defence forces, if they are part of Euro or not etc.). Also in EU no big decisions can be made unless all the member countries agree, so that is why there are lots of issues, that “stay on the table” without any solution, f.ex. what to do with the asylum seekers arriving to south Italy and Greece. The East-European countries have “declared” that they will not take any immigrants from the Muslim countries, so even when in the EU the plan was to “share” the asylum seekers from the South Europe to all of the EU countries, it can not be done, cause EU can not force the East European countries to do such thing against their will.

        I am not happy for Brexit, simply for knowing too many couples with one parent from Britain, one parent from Finland and several under aged children. Also I know many Finns living in Britain and vice versa so the Brexit will make all their lives much more complicated as for so many Brits wanting to move/work/study/live freely on the area of EU.

        Also now when Britain is leaving, it is changing the balance inside the EU and (if I have undrstood correctly) Macron would be happy to join certain politicians in Germany and lead EU closer to a federation – which I absolutely oppose – where as (if I have understood correctly) the Brits also were not so keen on the idea of a tighter EU, so in many ways the Brexit will have long term effects we can only quess.

        (My language is not good enough for a conversation like this, but I think most of the EU members still silently hope in our minds that Brexit will not happen anyway.. Maybe on paper, but practically no.. )

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 16, 2018, 10:05 pm

        Sorry, I forgot to mention a very important issue: The border between Ireland and North Ireland. What will be the solution (outcome) for that when/if Brexit really happens..?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 16, 2018, 10:54 pm

        The Ireland/Northern Ireland border has been there since 1921, long before the EU existed. Some sort of deal can be reached.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        February 16, 2018, 11:57 pm

        Annie, first, I think I agree with your take on this poll, but it’s not without caveats.

        Without individual tracking polling, no one really knows how these affectations evolve over time. I base this on the fact that very few polling outfits predicted a Trump win – even the vaunted 528 site – except those that tracked individual voter sentiment over time. It would seem that group polls of randomly selected respondents are prone to overgeneralization.

        I’ll try to keep this short, but I’ll be describing graphs with words and I may not get it right.

        There are [at least] two possible/plausible outcomes of this “young Jewish sentiment”:

        A) that they maintain their diminished affection for Israel over their lifetimes; or,

        B) that they grow an affection to Israel over their lifetimes, or;

        C) some combination of the above.

        So A) can be represented by a graph that shows a “waterfall” of parallel lines (young views commensurately diminished in older views) where young Jews maintain their disaffection (or whatever) for Israel over time. Over a period of decades, this would show that sinking connection to Israel at a young age explicitly translated into sinking connection to Israel overall and most importantly, prospectively.

        B) can be represented by a graph where discrete young Jewish feelings today merge into uncritical support of Israel in a few decades. This would be an individual tracking graph that showed their low affectation for Israel now with future sentiment. That graph might merge at a uncritical support for Israel level with the age of the “trackees.” Would it be a relatively stationary number (compared to 10 years ago), I don’t know. But it might.

        There are probably a dozen anecdotal examples for each case out there in the general population. Robert Parry (grhs) being an example of the (A), and, well heck, probably every reporter at the NYT and WAPO, notionally anti-establishment as youth, but now virulently part of the establishment.

        I’d just like to see some tracking, though I completely understand it’s not likely and we all have to draw our conclusions from what’s available.

      • John O
        John O
        February 17, 2018, 8:15 am

        @RoHa “The Ireland/Northern Ireland border has been there since 1921, long before the EU existed. Some sort of deal can be reached.”

        Unfortunately, the British government agreed in its first phase talks with the EU, that there will not be a “hard” border between the Republic and the North. Then, under pressure from the hard-right headbangers in the Tory party, May said the UK will leave the single market and the customs union, which means there MUST be a “hard ” border. It’s getting reminiscent of Mel Brooks’ classic, “The Producers”.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        February 17, 2018, 11:47 am

        I agree that the coming and going of the No Hard Border pledge was pretty astonishing. On the other point of your discussion with RoHa – the basic idea behind Brexit, just as with the election of Trump, was surely ‘immigrants taking our jobs’. The Leavers must have thought that they were protecting their grandchildren’s chances of getting the kind of jobs that they, now pensioners, fondly remember having. I think that they were mistaken, but this must now be put to the test the hard way. Will the young, with their different memories, manage to reverse the decision. I doubt it.
        Memories matter, don’t they? It was inevitable that the romantic attraction to Israel felt by Jewish people in the United States should decline as the memory of Hitler fades and their influence and prosperity go on unabated. Mind you, that atttraction seems very often to decline – or just be reshaped – into the liberal Z lamentation of which we are so aware, making people comfortably uncomfortable.
        In turn the position of Israel depends much less on idealistic young people, mainly Jewish, in the West and more on a very firmly established position in the world order, with an important place in the economic nexus and with no great powers really hostile – and some effusively friendly, India hardly less than the United States. I don’t believe that Israel is anywhere near a death spiral, though the reaction against the treatment of Ms. Tamimi was indeed heartening.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 2:14 pm

        RoHa:

        “Why is the Northern Ireland border question so hard?”

        http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42180074

    • John O
      John O
      February 17, 2018, 8:43 am

      @RoHa “does it not seem possible to you that, after many years of experience of the EU, those oldies decided (mistakenly, you would say) that leaving was the best thing they could do for their grandchildren?”

      The thoroughly dishonest, and frequently openly racist, Leave campaign, promoted by our gutter press, played the immigration card relentlessly. People (I say this from personal knowledge) who were planning to retire to sunny Spain actually voted leave, totally oblivious to the fact that this would prevent them from retiring there.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 17, 2018, 10:46 am

        JOHN O- “The thoroughly dishonest, and frequently openly racist, Leave campaign, promoted by our gutter press, played the immigration card relentlessly.”

        Perhaps so, but has any of the media honestly indicated that the immigration problem is a direct consequence of Western militarism and neoliberal globalization? Whatever problems associated with Brexit, in the long run all of Europe would be better off not being controlled at the macro level by the EU central bank and the financiers. Look at Greece, for cry sakes. And don’t forget that up until now Britain has not been required to be in the Eurozone. There would have been consequences for that.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 11:20 am

        Keith:

        “..up until now Britain has not been required to be in the Eurozone. There would have been consequences for that..”

        What consequenses?? Could you please give some clear examples of those consequenses??
        Denmark and Sweden are not part of the Eurozone and as far as I know, have no intention to join it in the near future. There has not been any special consequenses for that, if not counted the natural consecuenses that their currency is more flexible since they are not tied with Euro.

      • John O
        John O
        February 17, 2018, 11:29 am

        I take your point, Keith, insofar as the media has not exactly been open about our responsibility for the mess. However, I would argue that these people are not immigrants, they are refugees. Furthermore, successive British governments have made sure we take in as few of them as possible, leaving the burden largely with Germany, Italy and Greece.

      • amigo
        amigo
        February 17, 2018, 2:23 pm

        “The Ireland/Northern Ireland border has been there since 1921, long before the EU existed. Some sort of deal can be reached.” RoHa.

        Post Brexit !!.
        The Border between The Republic of Ireland (an EU member state )a nd Northern Ireland (part of the UK ) no longer part of the EU will be the border between the EU and the UK.Therefore it is the EU who will determine what form the Border will take , ie, Hard or soft.The 1921 border agreement is of little or no consequence .That was long before Ireland joined the EU.

        The UK insists that technology will provide the answer but they have yet to come up with a viable answer.

        At this point , it looks as if it will be a hard Border , which the republic is vehemently opposed to but the Bosses in Brussels have the final say.They will most likely insist that goods travelling between the UK and the EU , (Rep Of Ireland )will be controlled just as they will be , ie , between the UK and France /Belgium or Holland.

        In any event , at this point , a second referendum is a distinct possibility , now that the British Public are beginning to realise they were hoodwinked.

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 17, 2018, 2:45 pm

        “leaving the burden largely with Germany, Italy and Greece”

        84% of refugees are in the “developing” world no European countries make the top 10

        http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/ten-countries-host-world-refugees-report-161004042014076.html

        1. Jordan (2.7 million)
        2. Turkey (2.5 million)
        3. Pakistan (1.6 million)
        4. Lebanon (1.5 million)
        5. Iran (979,400)
        6. Ethiopia (736,100)
        7. Kenya (553,900)
        8. Uganda (477,200)
        9. Democratic Republic of Congo (383,100)
        10. Chad (369,500)

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 4:08 pm

        “84% of refugees are in the “developing” world no European countries make the top 10..”

        Agreed, I think John O was refering to those reaching the shores of South Europe..

        If talking about the refugees, the past years have just been a brutal chaos: People drowning, disapearing, living as paperless immigrants on the streets.. There was no system to handle such large amount of asylum seekers at the time they started to arrive to Europe and that is why the whole thing just became a big mess. Nothing to be proud of.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/more-than-a-million-of-europes-asylum-seekers-left-in-limbo

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 17, 2018, 5:39 pm

        KAISA OF FINLAND- “What consequenses??”

        It is my understanding that had Britain stayed in the European Union, then after 2020 circumstances would likely force Britain to join the Eurozone which would entail using the Euro not the Pound Sterling. Also, Britain would have been placed under the EU Central bank. The initial exception was made to encourage membership, however, it is difficult to continue to have one foot on the train and the other on the platform. Is this wrong? I have no idea why Denmark and Sweden are not in the Eurozone, however, financial pressure may require joining in the near future. If my understanding of Britain’s relation to either the European Union or the Eurozone is incorrect, please provide the correct info. Thanks.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 6:39 pm

        Keith:

        ” force Britain to join the Eurozone ..”

        But where is your evidence on that?? I have not heard about such thing. In each of those no-Euro countries there has been a referendum on if to join or not and as far as I know in Denmark, Sweden and UK the NO side to Euro won. Also the political parties in each country have had different opinions about if to join or not, so it has been part of their domestic politics.

        “..it is difficult to continue to have one foot on the train and the other on the platform..”

        It is a bit disturbing that you represent your own assumptions as facts here:

        I have already once explained to you that the member states are allowed to have very different solutions on different things, f.ex. look at Sweden, Denmark and Finland, all part of EU: Finland part of Eurozone, not part of NATO, Sweden not part of Eurozone, not part of NATO, Denmark part of NATO, not part of Eurozone, just to give you a simple example.

        I barely comment the politics in U.S. cause I do not know enough about it. You have very strong opinions about the politics in EU, I would be very happy to hear about your sources, where does this information of yours come from?

        No-one is claiming that EU functions perfectly, but it is a union of its member states, so it is clear that if the solutions are not made voluntarily and together, the union will not last.

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 17, 2018, 7:00 pm

        “Agreed, I think John O was refering to those reaching the shores of South Europe..”

        I knew that…

        “Nothing to be proud of”

        well that all depends Madam(oiselle) on what you draw your pride from, we were taught to cultivate “Divine Pride” meaning when they kick you down and bind your hand and gag your throat and give you one chance to sell out you laugh and let them burn you, it is a working class Rif’ay way, sufi, we not surprised to suffer but we have no shit to sell, don’t even own ourselves and keep our confidences.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 17, 2018, 7:08 pm

        Keith, try this:

        UK and Euro

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_and_the_euro

        “The EU has accepted that Sweden is staying outside the eurozone on its own decision. Olli Rehn, the EU commissioner for economic affairs has said that this is up to Swedish people to decide.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 8:55 pm

        One’s opponents always conduct a dishonest campaign. Especially if they win.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 9:37 pm

        It is a mess, Kaisa.

        I have seen reports that only a minority of the immigrants are genuine refugees. Since I do not trust media, governments, or NGO’s to tell us the whole, unvarnished, truth about this, I have to remain sceptical about all reports.

        I will say that I see no wrong in controlling and restricting immigration. Special arrangements should be made for refugees, but even that does not imply an open-door policy.

        This website would not exist if the Palestinians had been successful in restricting the European immigrants. Maoris, Aborigines, and American Indians would probably have some sympathy with this position as well.

        But even if the immigrants are not dedicated to taking over the country, I think a country is justified in limiting the number of immigrants who come from a country with a set of values and practices which conflict with those that sustain the host society.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        February 17, 2018, 9:40 pm

        “In any event , at this point , a second referendum is a distinct possibility , now that the British Public are beginning to realise they were hoodwinked.”

        Whether or not the British Public were hoodwinked, or beginning to realise it if they were, there is a strong movement among the elite to keep asking the question until they get the answer they want.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 2:09 am

        “This website would not exist if the Palestinians had been successful in restricting the European immigrants. Maoris, Aborigines, and American Indians would probably have some sympathy with this position as well.”

        I guess the Palestinians, Maoris, Aborigines and American Indians are sorry they voted for those liberal Democrats and their open-immigration policies. Maybe they learned a lesson.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 18, 2018, 6:03 am

        RoHa:

        “I will say that I see no wrong in controlling and restricting immigration. Special arrangements should be made for refugees, but even that does not imply an open-door policy..”

        I agree. It became a mess, ’cause all of the people were not refugees, there were people who had lost their papers on purpose and lied as much as they could, so it disturbed the process for those who really were asylum seekers.

        In last August here in Finland a Moroccan guy stabbed 10 people in the name of Islam. He had come as “an asylum seeker”, but (as later found out) had actually had several identities/crimes in Germany already before he came to Finland. (And I can confirm this news is true, I was just 15 minutes away from the place, when it happened.)

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/19/finnish-knifeman-moroccan-say-police/

        So as I think I have written here before, I think the asylum seekers should be “chosen” directly form the refugee camps, when their identity and background could be “determined” easier.

      • Keith
        Keith
        February 18, 2018, 11:18 am

        KAISA OF FINLAND- “It is a bit disturbing that you represent your own assumptions as facts here:”

        I have never presented my assumptions or opinions as facts, always as my personal conclusions usually buttressed by a relevant quote. So, for example, there is this article in the Telegraph:

        “After 2020, all EU members will have to adopt the euro

        Political union in the eurozone is an economic existential necessity, not a re-negotiable ambition” (The Telegraph) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html

        And what was my initial comment which you feel presents my assumptions as facts? “And don’t forget that up until now Britain has not been required to be in the Eurozone.” Is that an assumption or a statement of fact? Britain has NOT been required to be in the Eurozone, however, had Brexit not occurred there are indications that Britain’s relation with the Eurozone might evolve from what it is at present. Hardly an outrageous conclusion, nor one which should get you so emotionally involved. And not something I simply concocted in a vacuum. It is a moot point in any event.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 18, 2018, 1:15 pm

        Keith, that is one article in one news paper. Always try to look for several sources of information of the same subject: One journalist or an analyst can say one thing, but there are 28 member states with their own interests in EU, so things won’t be changed very easily.

        “..it is difficult to continue to have one foot on the train and the other on the platform..”

        This was your own assumption.

        When the Germans get their new goverment working, we will see what will be the next things on the table sbout EU. Atleast the on going Brexit negotiations, the refugee issue and the enviromental issues such as pollution and the climate change.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        Kaisa of Finland
        February 18, 2018, 1:37 pm

        Keith, just to give you an example..

        If you had read this article:

        “Martin Schulz wants ‘United States of Europe’ within eight years”

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/martin-schulz-united-states-of-europe-germany-sdp

        And made an assumption, that that is the goal of the EU in the near future, it would have been a false assumption, since that is just Martin Schulz’s and might be Macron’s dream, but as I wrote before, there are 28 member states, so it might be easier wanted than done. Atleast most of the Nordics oppose the “U.S.E.”, so if it is going to be United States of Europe, I would dare to “predict” it is going to be without the North.

  7. genesto
    genesto
    February 16, 2018, 1:39 pm

    ‘But mixed couples are more sympathetic to Israel than Palestinians, by much less, 36 percent to 7 percent.’

    I’m surprised, and somewhat disappointed, with this statistic. My wife and I, both in our 70’s and living in the Bay Area, are a mixed couple. She’s Jewish and I’m Arab American. We are both anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian rights. I would have expected more mixed marriages to be like us, particularly around here.

    I guess the lesson to be learned here is that you not only need to be with the ‘other’ but also listen to his or her story carefully. This is a problem with my wife’s two children who, even after knowing me for nearly 20 years, are still hardened Zionists with whom I can never discuss this issue.

  8. inbound39
    inbound39
    February 16, 2018, 4:13 pm

    The answer does not lie in the money though it does buy influence. The answer lies in the Justice Department and American Law. These laws were written for a purpose to protect the nation and its people. If it is illegal for a foreign power to meddle in American Governance then American Politicians have much to answer for and act upon. Israel openly meddles in American governance. Therefore if the American Government does not take action against outlawing Israel and holding it to account then Americans are being betrayed by their government. Full Stop….end of.

  9. Yitzgood
    Yitzgood
    February 16, 2018, 4:42 pm

    Mooser: It’s a simple little system, which any child can understand

    The composers names, we list ’em
    With the racetracks of the land.

    From Bells are Ringing in case some are not picking up the reference.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      February 17, 2018, 12:37 am

      ” in case some are not picking up the reference.”

      There’s no “reference”. And believe me, this readership does not need any little explanations of “references”, like they’ve never, ever thought of it before.

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 17, 2018, 9:58 am

        “There’s no “reference”.”

        but why do Americans do this, they /s, to mean snark or sarcasm, often writing “sarcasm if you didn’t get it”

        please ambiguity, anyone of the 7, slip the 5 easy pieces together and….and

        “world is crazier and more of it than we think…..

        On the tongue on the eyes on the ears in the palms of one’s hands—
        There is more than glass between the snow and the huge roses”

        16 french kings and a Scottish young female relative….

        (and if don’t get it you are going to get referred..i mean it, no bouquet, calling back)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 17, 2018, 1:52 pm

        “gamal” are you trying to snow us?

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 17, 2018, 6:14 pm

        ” “gamal” are you trying to snow us?”

        you see how its done, that is some primo shit, right there, respect yet again extra Jewish IQ points kamin behind me its ok i am not burt. Leon me…when you’re not wrong..

        leon me but no tin…i dread to think what your reply will be, i am at 120 IQ points imperial, i can reach no higher

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        February 17, 2018, 10:53 pm

        There’s no “reference”. And believe me, this readership does not need any little explanations of “references”, like they’ve never, ever thought of it before.

        You sound annoyed. You quoted two lines from a song from a late 1950s Broadway musical. It’s a funny song. Might as well let people in on the joke. Or did I miss some hugely successful revival of the show that made all the songs into current hits?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 2:26 am

        “Might as well let people in on the joke”

        “Goodman” you are the only one not in on the joke. Here’s the joke: In the age of Google it’s no big deal to have all kinds of references and quotes at hand.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 3:23 am

        ,” that is some primo shit, right there, respect yet again extra Jewish IQ points”

        Thanks “gamal”. My wide reading and retentive memory make me a real bal toyreh when it comes to identifying references.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        February 18, 2018, 2:21 pm

        “Goodman” you are the only one not in on the joke. Here’s the joke: In the age of Google it’s no big deal to have all kinds of references and quotes at hand.

        If you’re not up on your racetracks, especially a certain one in Florida, you could Google it and still miss the full impact of the supreme joke in the song.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 19, 2018, 1:09 pm

        “and still miss the full impact of the supreme joke”

        That Zionism is the “simple little system”, and a regular ‘Beethoven’s 10th Symphony’ of ideologies?

  10. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    February 16, 2018, 6:18 pm

    from Moshiach.com: The husband tells the wife, “The Rabbi said that soon we will no longer suffer from the Cossacks, the Messiah is about to come and take us all to Israel.” The wife thinks for a while and says, “Tell the Messiah to leave us alone. Let him take the Cossacks to Israel!”

    I think it was Hannah Arendt who predicted that a Spartan Israel with its love of gore would eventually drift away from mostly lefty western Jews .

    Prophet Micah: “What does the Lord require of thee but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.”
    Micah would be an object of derision in Israel.

    • Yitzgood
      Yitzgood
      February 17, 2018, 11:01 pm

      Micah would be an object of derision in Israel.

      Isn’t MW against the messianic stuff about rebuilding the Temple on the Temple Mount? I think there is a current post about it. See Chapter 4.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        February 18, 2018, 2:50 am

        “Isn’t MW against the messianic stuff about rebuilding the Temple on the Temple Mount?”

        Yes, that Micah-shtik is strictly fool’s gold.

  11. inbound39
    inbound39
    February 17, 2018, 3:21 pm

    Just noticed on Palestinian Chronicle that Israel plans to stop benefits to those citizens of Israel that support BDS.

    • annie
      annie
      February 17, 2018, 7:19 pm

      getting all their ducks lined up in a row

      • gamal
        gamal
        February 17, 2018, 8:49 pm

        my Dear Annie

        what is so amazing about Farrell, this my dear is for you, you’ll love it, how Farrell carries everyone a real, real master, beating heart of a living tradition….

        https://youtu.be/G9VXRfxU5Dw

      • annie
        annie
        February 18, 2018, 12:18 am

        listening now gamal! wonderful ;)

        edit, it keeps getting better and better and better!

  12. Kay24
    Kay24
    February 18, 2018, 6:22 am

    Its seems that war monger, Netanyahu, is up to his tricks again, this time he uses a map, instead of a cartoon bomb:

    “Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that Israel would act against Iran, not just its allies in the Middle East, if needed, reiterating that Tehran was the world’s greatest threat.

    Holding a piece of what he said was an Iranian drone after its incursion into Israeli airspace earlier this month, Netanyahu told the Munich Security Conference: “Israel will not allow the regime to put a noose of terror around our neck.

    “We will act if necessary not just against Iran’s proxies but against Iran itself,” he said.

    Addressing the Munich event for the first time, Netanyahu urged gathered U.S. and European officials and diplomats to counter Iran immediately, displaying a map showing what he said was Iran’s growing presence in the Middle East.” New York Times

    Let’s see…Israel terrorizes the Palestinians, so that means the pot calls the kettle black, he has forgotten about Mossad killing Iranian scientists in Iran, and as for the map, perhaps Iran should come up with one too, showing exactly where the US and Israel’s growing presence can be found, many in the same place Iranian presence may be. Ironic.

    When crooks are under investigation they are desperate, and they try to distract, and take attention away from the hot water they are in.

  13. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    February 18, 2018, 9:28 am

    @Kay24
    I trust that the expletive deleted properly declared the drone part with all the necessary paperwork when he imported it into Germany. No wait a minute he is a Zionist Jewish Israeli so international laws on the import and export of military hardware parts don`t apply to him.

    On the plus side the yahoo is now looking very old and worn at the edges what with the upcoming corruption charges and his Pekinese missus forever snapping at his heels.

    BTW “We will act if necessary not just against Iran’s proxies but against Iran itself,” is Ziocode for ” we will get our lackeys in Congress to authorise direct action against Iran”.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      February 18, 2018, 7:22 pm

      It seems Yahoo does not realize he looking like a buffoon, with his cartoon bombs, and silly maps, and that he looks like a gorilla pounding his chest at Iran, always, from the podium, growling and
      threatening.

      Only the zionist puppets in Congress, the US media, and the US President, treat him like he is
      some hero, in fact he gets more standing ovations than the US President, whenever he invites himself to Congress. The rest of the world seem to know he is a liar and a war monger.

  14. John O
    John O
    February 18, 2018, 4:51 pm

    Sorry if this thread has got a bit sidetracked towards the finer points of Britain leaving the European Union. So here’s a link to an illustration of how young people are making a difference to the way we see things: Emma Gonzalez, a survivor of the awful massacre last week in Florida, and a worthy companion to Malala Yousafzai and Ahed Tamimi:

    https://hellogiggles.com/news/emma-gonzalez-full-speech/

  15. HarryLaw
    HarryLaw
    February 21, 2018, 12:46 pm
  16. amigo
    amigo
    February 22, 2018, 11:02 am

    OT but of interest.

    Tony Greenstein has been expelled from the Labour party for alledged Antisemitism.It appears that referring to Zionists as “Zios” is Antisemetic.

    The Labour party might do well to unmask the Zio spies who are working to “Bring down ” Senior British Pols –even Ministers.I am confident that a close look at their blog sites would unearth the abundant use of the term , “Palis” or Ay-rabs.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/labour-expels-jewish-anti-zionist-tony-greenstein

    • annie
      annie
      February 22, 2018, 11:26 am

      zio activists in the UK have long been claiming the term zio is anti semitic, which is non sensical. it’s merely a shortening of the word, as dem is for democrat.

      • eljay
        eljay
        February 22, 2018, 12:09 pm

        Given not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionists, it’s interesting – but not surprising – that Zionists are once again anti-Semitically conflating Zionism with all Jews and all Jews with Zionism.

        Why, I continue to wonder, do Zionists hate Jews so much?!

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