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Jews and trauma

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I got into Gaza six months after the big massacre of 2008-2009, with Code Pink. It was one of the most scarring travels of my life– obviously. The people there were hungry for any attention from outsiders, that was my main impression. They were isolated from all of humanity, and tarred as terrorists. They were locked up, in the little strip that I calculated was smaller than Queens and the Bronx put together. They were all over us from start to finish, charming and desperate and articulate. They wanted a feeling of global community, that they too were participants in civilization. That was one thing we could do for them, make them feel less alone.

I looked at it Jewishly. I kept thinking about the Warsaw Ghetto and the photos of Roman Vishniac. His photos of the Warsaw Ghetto were reissued in the 1980s with a forward by Elie Wiesel in an oversized edition that became a bestseller in the Jewish community. The book has a special place in my family story because my mother never bought new books, she only bought stuff second-hand, so as to bring up six children on a professor’s salary, but she bought six new copies of that book, one for each child, so we would never forget. That was a big outlay of cash. My mother was somehow traumatized by the Holocaust. We knew of no relatives who had died– my grandfathers had come over at the turn of the century, as children — but when my mother was a girl, in a broken home in New York, the news from Europe had fused into her American experience of poverty and anti-Semitism and she had felt kin to all the Jews who were slaughtered, or in camps. She sometimes said that she had one child for each million. That’s an intense statement, but obviously it came from some real emotional place.

The destruction we saw in Gaza reminded me of those pictures of the Holocaust, and it came to me then what any sensitive person soon understands about Israel, that the Jews had needed to find a new Jew on whom to inflict the horrors that were inflicted on us by the Nazis. The cycle of abuse. And of course many Zionist leaders explicitly projected the Nazis on to the Palestinians.

We met health care professionals in Gaza, and one said, “We live in a cage, you can see that plainly. But the Israelis, they have a cage in their mind. They are more imprisoned than we are.”

These ideas are fresh to me this weekend because of the deep craziness of the Israeli violence on Friday. Consider this: On Thursday, April 5, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs sends out a long solemn message giving the Israeli position to skeptical foreign observers —

Dear foreign journalist, editor, commentator, diplomat, blogger,
If you are planning on covering and/or addressing events at the Gaza-Israel fence on Friday April 6–

then the next day Israeli snipers shoot six Palestinian journalists, killing one of them, at that very fence. It’s hard to be more crazy than that.

The journalist they killed, Yaser Murtaja, had never been out of Gaza and left as an epitaph the desire to travel. “My name is Yaser Murtaja. I am 30… I never traveled!” I might have met him nine years ago, winning and desperate and imprisoned.

All six journalists Israel shot were Palestinian. I bet that’s because none of the foreign journalists the Israeli ministry was so worried about dared to go near the fence. It was left to Palestinian journalists to carry out that courageous labor, because: they have no choice. The Palestinians are doubtless a deeply traumatized people today. You can’t experience so much violence without it distorting your view of reality, and your sense of your future. At 16, Ahed Tamimi had the courage to slap a heavily armed Israeli soldier occupying her property because a soldier had just shot her cousin and because she’s seen relatives die in front of her.

My chief interest is my people, the people I come from. Jews are deeply traumatized by one of the worst historical experiences that has ever befallen anyone, just 70 years ago. My mother’s best friend got out of Berlin at 8. After Kristallnacht her mother said to her father, If you won’t leave, I’m taking the kids myself. Golda ended up comfortable in Bloomington, Indiana, but she couldn’t handle that. She and her husband moved to Jerusalem in 1968 to be on the front lines for the Jewish nation and so their kids wouldn’t marry non-Jews in the U.S.. She discovered my writing on this site in 2012 and wrote to me, “Is your blog Mondoweiss a desperate attempt to make your name known (a result of your failure to do so in literature), or is it a byproduct of your unresolved conflict with your father? I want to cry. Golda.”

I was stunned and guilty. My wife wrote back to her before I was capable of doing so. “Personally, I couldn’t figure out whether your note was supposed to be cruel or just ignorant.”

Golda’s story, and her viciousness, and my guilt as a surrogate of one of the six millions, when my wife was strong — that’s just an eyedropper of Jewish trauma.

John Mearsheimer once asked me how the smartest and best educated and one of the most liberal and privileged people in America could blind themselves to apartheid. “That’s your story, Phil, you have to explain it.” My explanation in the light of the latest massacre is that the Jewish question of Europe never ended. Jews were so psychically scoured by that collective memory that we had to project our experience on to others, and we found a perfect other in the Palestinians.

Leaving aside the obvious political questions of isolating Israel and prosecuting commanders– Jews have to sort out our trauma. We need pressure from others, and some kindness; but the kids need to take control and work this out with the parents and grandparents, and soon. We owe that to the world.

philweiss
About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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192 Responses

  1. April 8, 2018, 12:12 pm

    “My chief interest is my people….”

    Only confirming what I’ve always suspected: you are part of the problem, not the solution. (How did someone once put it? The spectrum of Zionism and anti-Zionism?)

    Someone once introduced himself to me — no joke — as a second-generation Holocaust survivor. I almost starting laughing, I thought now this is a Jew I could learn to love! I was even about to introduce myself as a seventh-generation Civil War veteran — until I realized he wasn’t kidding.

    Jewish trauma, you say? Oh, balls. It’s called victimhood. It’s what all shrinks warn against; where would Jews be without it?

    P.S.

    ‘John Mearsheimer once asked me how the smartest….’

    Your people?

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen
      April 8, 2018, 1:04 pm

      wow just read your comment…same sentence jumped out at me. Along with the rest of that sentence that the Holocaust was the “worst historical experiences that have befallen anyone”

      • festus
        festus
        April 9, 2018, 1:12 pm

        Can you believe it? Hundreds of years of the genocide of natives in the Americas, Pacific Isles, Australis, New Zealand. Hundred of years of the total bondage and mass slaughter of Africans. All trumped by five years of the Holocaust. My God. This is really nuts.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        April 9, 2018, 9:44 pm

        In no way shape or form should any of us discount the horrific and systematic slaughter of millions of Jews, Poles, Gypsies etc. No way…we should “never forget” However we should also “never forget” millions of Africans killed via enslavement, Native Americans, Vietnamese etc etc,etc who have been victims of genocide

        When it is only the Holocaust that is brought up in our media inferring that it is one of the only insane, gruesome genocides in history it is so disrespectful to those who have lost their lives to the dark and evil side of human nature

    • gamal
      gamal
      April 8, 2018, 1:04 pm

      “Jewishly” ?….

      “and my guilt as a surrogate of one of the six millions, when my wife was strong”

      that is very unhealthy, am I to understand that you are the victim and central protagonist here

      “Jewishly” doesn’t really work “manly” does though if you give it a go and accept responsibilty

      there is no purification with out confession, full honest heartfelt and precisely to the point.

      it is done so

      I whose name is (insert name) have done with malice, through greed, because of anger……( it is not a moment to prevaricate…worldly people dislike it, “Jewishly” or otherwise)

      you see to me Jewishly implies that rich wisdom heritage…..not some neurotic pissing around, New Yorkly perhaps?

      you not wards of the world Weiss but have taken command of it, way past time to sort out

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 11, 2018, 4:31 pm

        And here Phil either understands his Frankenstein or remains apathetic as the useful idiot he’s become. But hey, a guy needs a platform to write.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 4:53 pm

        “But hey, a guy needs a platform to write.”

        Doesn’t he, though? Where’s your’s “DaBakr”?

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 8, 2018, 1:55 pm

      “My chief interest is my people….”

      Perhaps an equitable apportioning can be achieved by negotiation.

    • Donald
      Donald
      April 8, 2018, 2:26 pm

      Your reaction is bizarre. Phil has devoted years of his life, out in the open, criticizing Zionism and he is part of the problem? What high standards you supposedly have. I have problems with Phil too sometimes but this is ridiculous.

      As for the Holocaust, I had a Jewish friend ( he died young a few years ago) whose parents were alive, but as I understood it virtually the whole family from two generations back was exterminated. I knew my two grandmothers— the two grandfathers died of natural causes before I was born. It staggers me imagining some alternate universe where they were all murdered by some movement that tried to exterminate all white Protestants. I don’t think the Holocaust was worse than some of the other horrific crimes in history, but it was one of the worst and yes, if you are an immediate descendant of a Holocaust survivor and most of your family was wiped out I would think that would have an effect. It in no way whatsoever justifies the crimes that Israel has committed, but are people going to be traumatized? Hell yes.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 8, 2018, 2:38 pm

        “Hell yes”

        Nobody knows the trouble we’ve seen.

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 8, 2018, 3:18 pm

        “but are people going to be traumatized? Hell yes.”

        well yes people, not Zohra Driff or the Hamas, of which you don’t approve, no trauma there, it is an affliction of “people”, got it.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 8, 2018, 6:42 pm

        … My chief interest is my people …

        That’s the problem with too many people in the world: They’re more interested in “their people” than they are interested in good people.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        April 9, 2018, 1:05 am

        “Hell yes” Recognizing the trauma, processing the trauma ,always easier said than done. Trying not to allow the trauma to seep into other relationships. “Hell yes”

        I was traumatized just reading about the Holocaust. Sobbing, trembling wondering over and over again why people were so slow to respond? I can’t imagine having survived and having witnessed the gruesome, bizarre ,criminal behavior of the Hitler machine. Understandable that those that survived, their kids would feel protective of one another. However those instincts become self destructive once again when you unleash your trauma on say the Palestinians etc. Defeatist….becoming the very monster you are trying to forget or protect yourself from.

        I sure like that Phil’s wife put it to Golda.

      • festus
        festus
        April 9, 2018, 3:25 pm

        You know what, more than 60 million people were killed during WWII. Plenty of trauma for everyone involved. Yet everyone else has largely moved on — including the Roma who continue to be discriminated against today and whom the Nazis apparently intended to eradicate from Europe (and were very well represented in the camps). This trauma suffered by 2nd and 3rd generation Jewish Holocaust survivors is self inflicted by the culture.

      • April 11, 2018, 11:10 am

        Eljay – hear hear

    • guyn
      guyn
      April 8, 2018, 3:16 pm

      “you are part of the problem, not the solution.”

      In what way Phil Weiss is part of the problem with his work, here?

      • April 8, 2018, 4:14 pm

        If you, and Donald, can’t see how ““My chief interest is my people….” is part of the problem, not solution (JVP could no doubt say the same thing — which is why I suspect their sincerity too); how Phil’s Jewishness interferes w his humanity every bit as much as Bret Stephens’s interferes w his … I’ll just leave it at that. (How many generations is “my people” from “master race”? The “smartest people”?)

      • Ellen
        Ellen
        April 8, 2018, 4:50 pm

        Tribal thinking. It is primitive and leads to dark places. Exclusion of “the other.”

      • guyn
        guyn
        April 9, 2018, 8:11 am

        Phil is a writer; he writes against zionism, he writes against Israel, he writes against the neocons, all that at personnal cost. It is not enough?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 11, 2018, 4:34 pm

        @el

        Tribal thinking? Do you have even the slightest clue about Arab or Palestinian society? You fool.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      April 9, 2018, 1:14 am

      “My chief interest is my people, the people I come from. Jews…”

      Phil, why do you think of Jews as “your people”? Why not Americans, or journalists?
      In what sense do you “come from ” them?

      • April 9, 2018, 9:22 am

        Why not the human race????

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        April 10, 2018, 1:52 am

        Indeed.

      • Jethro
        Jethro
        April 10, 2018, 12:58 pm

        “My chief interest is my people, the people I come from. Jews…”

        I’m sorry, but isn’t that at the core of Judaism?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 10, 2018, 3:45 pm

        Jethro

        I’m sorry, but isn’t that at the core of Judaism?

        Deplorably, that seems to be the case.

      • April 11, 2018, 11:27 am

        Are Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews, Iranian Jews, Morrocan Jews, Finnish Jews, Brazilian Jews, South African Jews, and Chinese Jews all part of Phil’s people? If so, what a lovely multicultural people Phil is part of.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 11, 2018, 6:11 pm

        Hunter,

        Note that they manage the trick, strictly impossible to any Gentiles, to remain all part of Phil’s “my people” without having the slightest wisp of the smoke of a shadow of any common cultural element between any two of their branches. And it’s “a people”.

    • JanetB
      JanetB
      April 9, 2018, 7:07 pm

      I think people are being deeply unfair to Phil. It is perfectly normal to be interested in what makes up your identity. I’m Canadian but I am most interested in the people and history of Lancashire because that is where my mother comes from and she has had the greatest impact on my life. To expect that the Holocaust would not have affected Phil’s parents is deeply absurd. However, Phil has been able to overcome this cultural trauma and know that Israels should not treat the Palestinians the way they do. To be able to step outside of the ethos of your culture is something few are able to do. We should praise those that can not criticize them because they are not perfect.

  2. Stephen Shenfield
    Stephen Shenfield
    April 8, 2018, 12:42 pm

    I would just add that before Nazi Germany there was tsarist Russia with its stigmatization of and discrimination against Jews and pogroms — the impetus behind an earlier generation of Zionists. My grandmother and her sister were survivors of the 1915 pogrom in Smorgon — one of the many pogroms along Russia’s western border, motivated by the belief that Jews were pro-German. The town was burned and the column of refugees headed eastward into the forest. My grandmother was not a Zionist, however. She was a Bundist.

    The parallel with Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is much closer for tsarist Russia than it is for Nazi Germany — restriction to specified areas, complicated bureaucratic regulations, periodic ethnic cleansing, occasional massacres, but not outright genocide.

    • Kathleen
      Kathleen
      April 8, 2018, 2:05 pm

      Systematic oppression and massacre

      http://americanhistory.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199329175.001.0001/acrefore-9780199329175-e-3

      Some genocides more calculated, slower over a longer period. Embedded into foreign policy. PNAC, Securing the Realm etc. Then the calculations that if you take down the dictator keeping the lid on the infighting (Sunni, Shia etc) tribal hatred may take hold and incite more killing (Sabra/Shatilla). U.S. military, neocons Feith, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld study war) Israel is also a master at killing and not suffering any palpable consequences

      Sanctions against Iraq killed hundreds of thousands
      https://fair.org/extra/we-think-the-price-is-worth-it/

      Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people have been killed as a direct consequence of our invasion. Millions displaced. Same goes for the Obama/Clinton decision and push for take military action in Libya, arming unknown rebels in Syria, former US Ambassador Robert Ford fomenting the Syrian civil war. U.S. actions in the middle east certainly seem to be following the blueprint for rearranging the middle east and millions of Muslims have been massacred and displaced.

      Yes different kinds of genocides. The call for “never again” should apply to all people. We have had a slow calculated genocide taking place in the middle east for several decades now. Massive trauma taking place

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        April 8, 2018, 4:22 pm

        Yep. Just as Phil is most interested (worried?) about his people, All Americans should be worried about their people too–for the same reason. Or, is there no more “Americans”–now that whites have become another ethic minority among all the rest? Isn’t that what arose as Trump’s base? USA becoming more like a third world country, divided by tribes?

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 8, 2018, 7:34 pm

      The parallel with Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is much closer for tsarist Russia than it is for Nazi Germany — restriction to specified areas, complicated bureaucratic regulations, periodic ethnic cleansing, occasional massacres, but not outright genocide.

      Except that the israelis really do have a “final solution” in mind – they just differ in the details of exactly how it is to be carried out and how long it’ll take. Jewish Americans don’t want to and can’t accept the truth of this, but this is how most israelis think. And it is what they talk about amongst themselves, when “nice” jewish people from America are not around.

      The modern day genocides take different forms than they used to because information is out in the open and the dastardly realities of what genocide means and what it looks like cannot be hidden for too long. Whether it’s the Rohinga in Myanmar or some tribes in the Sudan or the palestinians in Israel, the news have a way of getting out – if not in full force, then in trickles. As a result, the persecutors and executioners have to take heed. They go slower, they wrap up their purposes in high minded words, they write high minded opinion pieces about “tit-for-tat”, they label groups of people, entire tribes even, as “terrorists’, secessionist or subversives. They even go as far as pretending that it’s only “a little ethnic cleansing” and that refugees of said “cleansing’ can be – and should be – settled elsewhere.

      So yes, what’s going on in the West bank looks like pogroms in Poland and ukraine of old. But what’s going on in Gaza is something else entirely. Just to remind you – there was no parallele in tsarist Russia to enclosing people in a ghetto with no way out and almost no way to communicate with the rest of the world. Yes, now and then a jewish community would suffer a pogrom and now and then a Jewish community would be forced to vacate the place where they lived. But never have they been locked-up en mass in a small cage, under the pretext of “terrorists’ or whatever, for decades on end. There has been no attempt by tsarist Russia to eradicate Millions of jews and “disappear’ them collectively, while denying them water, sustenance, medical care and means of making a livelihood. And while Israel’s storm troopers, masquerading under the innocent sounding “defense forces’ could act like the worst of Kossacks (and not all kossacks were “bad”!), the parallels stop there.

      Sorry to disillusion you but israelis do have a plan. They just know that since the world is [kind of] watching, it’s going to take a little longer to get from here to there. Neither do israelis – the majority of them – hold back seat to some of the worst German Nazis in terms of the ways they talk and think. For the most part, they really do believe Palestinians are sub-humans (which even the worst of the Kossacks of Russia did not, though they thought of them as un-believers who would corrupt the “morals” of the real Christians). When you think of a people as sub-human, that opens the door to all manner of “dealing with them”.

      You know in your heart, as well as I do, that had the world taken off its eyes from gaza for a few years, extremely bad things would happen.

      And yes, had there been internet in the 30’s and 40’s, the nazis would have also gone slower probably. They might have even come up with the brilliant idea of making many little “Gazas” for the jews. may be somewhere just out of sight. And they would have upped the propaganda about communists and terrorists to get the people – their people, and the world’s – to look the other way as they mount periodic target shootings in their little out-of-sight ghettos.

      Sorry, not much difference that i can see. But then I am not so inclined to prevarication (too tiring….).

      • Jethro
        Jethro
        April 8, 2018, 9:32 pm

        Oops, Danaa. You were not supposed to let that cat out of the bag.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 9, 2018, 1:19 pm

        ” Jewish Americans don’t want to and can’t accept the truth of this”

        But Israel may feel the loss of a certain amount of American support is worth the solution.

      • April 11, 2018, 11:49 am

        When the internet was not available, the Zionist Jew invaders (not part of Phil’s people) committed horrific wholesale/mass slaughters and rapes – women, children, seniors, the unarmed – innocents who had lived in Palestine for hundreds of years.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        April 11, 2018, 4:43 pm

        “This is how most Israel’s think….”. If it wasn’t so obvious what a racist bigoted twat is writing it might be interesting to see how anybody could come to this idea.

        Oh…. But now I note that “modern genocides” are “different” and not carried out in the open. Like Rwanda. Yazidis and Kurds , Syrian, and Myanmar?

        So, I’m just assuming the most logical expansion is the author is a nasty racist kookk

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 12, 2018, 2:44 am

        now I note that “modern genocides” are “different” and not carried out in the open

        Says our ZioNS and “notes” wrong again.

        The ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people by the invading ZioMericans, ZioPoles, etc. is being performed in plain daylight, under the eyes of the approving European colonials and the cheering American criminals. Way more in the open than the WWI and WWII genocides. It will be accelerated to high speed as soon as the opportunity of a general war can be concocted.

  3. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    April 8, 2018, 1:15 pm

    PW “My chief interest is my people” However you have clearly expanded your ability to empathize in a big way via your writings and website.

    Trauma is trauma is trauma although definitely degrees of severity.

    When any individual or group of people traumatized decides to hunker down and then abuse or kill others based on what they or if they see one group as “their people” have experienced they lose and so does the rest of the world. The message and actions of Gandhi, MLK (civil rights stances expanded to Vietnam) is to expand your ability to empathize and feel compassion towards others who are being traumatized. Phil you have expanded that space internally…so healthy.

    Today on MSNBC AM Joy Reid reported about the massacres in Gaza. A few seconds. Question for Joy is if Palestinians were black would she be more likely to be concerned. If Palestinians were all gay would Rachel Maddow be more likely to report about the oppression and massacres.

    When we make the choice to lock down into our own suffering or the suffering of what some may identify as “their people” we all lose.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      April 8, 2018, 4:37 pm

      Yes, see my original response to you–those are more tribes, many newer ones not ethnic in nature–and then, there’s intersectionality too…

      PW does mention the macro: cycle of abuse

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      April 8, 2018, 6:18 pm

      “My chief interest is my people” — That is tribalist, but not as tribalist as Golda, for instance, whose ONLY interest is her people, so that she can view this website only as a product of Phil’s desire for fame or as a personal vendetta. A person whose mind is so extremely narrow as to make it inconceivable to her that any Jew could really care about non-Jews.

      One thing that does not, in my view, explain Golda’s reaction is trauma. Phil tries to explain too much in terms of trauma. Writers who have been through the Nazi or Stalinist camps or the Nakba (to broaden the discussion a bit) expound widely divergent philosophies. Some emerge as humanists, others as fanatical nationalists. Some are deeply pessimistic about human nature, others manage to stay optimistic despite their terrible experiences. As they have all been traumatized, trauma cannot explain their outlooks. I suspect that the pre-trauma outlook shapes how they interpret what happens to them. If trauma has any identifiable effect at all, perhaps it is to intensify the pre-trauma philosophy rather than change it. Changing one’s outlook requires conditions conducive to systematic thought, but those who survive traumatic experiences do so by focusing solely on how to survive.

      • Kathleen
        Kathleen
        April 9, 2018, 8:11 am

        Well said. All of the above,,

        “Some emerge as humanists, others as fanatical nationalists” Tribalist

        So much of “my people” thinking, feelings……learned behavior. Some of it protectionist, some of it purely ethnocentric.

        Now we have decades of Palestinians being traumatized. Clearly most Israeli’s do not care and yet one would think that even out of “my people” thinking they would get it that it is only a matter of time that their efforts to create an expanded Jewish state via theft and causing tremendous suffering is on a collisions course with itself.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        April 10, 2018, 10:33 pm

        Yes, well said.
        And there is such a thing as 2nd generation Holocaust survivors. Trauma can be passed down.
        But my reading of the American Jewish community is that this intractable, damaging Holocaust “trauma” is self-induced. And that’s on a par with Israel’s. Another way of saying it is that they could heal from the trauma but they don’t want to. The point is to justify privilege, mainly Zionism.
        Look at how kids can will themselves into being upset when it serves their purpose. They are really upset AND they manipulated their feelings to achieve a desired outcome.

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 11, 2018, 12:34 am

        ELLIOT- “… this intractable, damaging Holocaust “trauma” is self-induced.”

        I seriously doubt that those traumatized have induced it upon themselves. Rather, it is the Zionist leadership that has intentionally traumatized many (most?) Jews via a propaganda blitz. After about 1967, we have been continually inundated with Holocaust movies, Holocaust studies, Holocaust museums, mandatory Holocaust education (in Europe), etc. Here it is important to distinguish between those traumatized by a lived experience versus those traumatized vicariously by a learned ideological representation of reality.

  4. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    April 8, 2018, 1:22 pm

    PW “My chief interest is my people, the people I come from. Jews are deeply traumatized by one of the worst historical experiences that has ever befallen anyone, just 70 years ago”

    “one of the worst” While I completely believe that no one should ever forget the Holocaust. I also believe we should never forget other genocides. Suffering is suffering is suffering. Genocide is genocide is genocide. Again I get it degree of severity does matter

    http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/index.html

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      April 8, 2018, 4:40 pm

      Yep

    • April 11, 2018, 9:04 am

      “And there is such a thing as 2nd generation Holocaust survivors. Trauma can be passed down.”

      Really? Like a sweater? Dad’s old Duster???

      How ’bout: Dad: why the f— would I want to be seen driving around in a 30-year-old clunker?? Who’s gonna want to lay me??

  5. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    April 8, 2018, 4:25 pm

    Of course Israel runs on trauma. Finland would never elect a fraud like Netanyahu. Israel’s projection against Palestinians is pure trauma , as is the difference between communication in Hebrew and English. Trauma is irrational. So is Zionism.

    • pabelmont
      pabelmont
      April 8, 2018, 7:14 pm

      Israel’s treatment of Palestinians may in some cases (there are many Israelis) be a result of trauma, but in other cases it may be a result of inherently brutal character, greed (the brutality of many settlers), political opportunism, etc., all of which are seen among people other than Jews (although such people may also be traumatised, say by horrible childhoods).

      As to Phil’s seemingly tribal concern with his “people”, I think that his people like my people are the human race, which is rather various; but the thing is that the totality of people calling themselves “Jews” is also rather various — as I remarked elsewhere

      I believe that some threads of Jewish belief and teaching hold that moral rules binding on Jews are of a universal character — Jews should not murder anyone, for example — and that other threads of Jewish belief and teaching hold that moral rules binding on Jews are non-universal — perhaps to the extent that no duties are owed to non-Jews, who are sometimes described as animals or insects.

      there is such variety along moral lines in various strands of Jewish teaching as to make nonsense of the idea that Jews are “one people”.

      Zionist Jews, or the worst of them, say to American Jews, “I am a criminal, protect me from the wages of my sin because we are all Jews.” Would anyone answer that call if it were phrased, “I am a criminal, protect me from the wages of my sin because we are all human.”

  6. jon s
    jon s
    April 8, 2018, 4:51 pm

    ” She( PW’s mother ) sometimes said that she had one child for each million.”
    I have a somewhat similar recollection. I’m the youngest of four siblings. My mother (of blessed memory) once told me that she and my Dad had originally planned to have three kids. But at that time- in the years after the Holocaust- there was talk in the community that each family should have one more child beyond what they had originally thought or planned, as a kind of “answer” , adding Jewish children after so many had been lost. As a result, they had me.

    (So, for all MW readers who suffer from reading my comments : blame the Nazis.)

    I’m also reminded of a nice old Jewish survivor , visiting her grandchildren in Israel ,who put it this way: “If Hitler would see me today, he would plotz !”

    • eljay
      eljay
      April 8, 2018, 7:02 pm

      || jon s: … I’m also reminded of a nice old Jewish survivor , visiting her grandchildren in Israel ,who put it this way: “If Hitler would see me today, he would plotz !” ||

      Just imagine how she would plotz to hear:
      – you (a Zionist Jew) supporting the Nazi massacre of Jews deemed by Hitler to be “not innocent”; and,
      – me (an anti-Zionist and allegedly “Jew hating” anti-Semite) condeming the massacre of any and all Jews.

      • jon s
        jon s
        April 9, 2018, 4:27 pm

        Eljay,
        I support the Nazi massacre? Have you lost your mind?

        As to your anti-Jewish bigotry, you manifested it by supporting a legal ban on circumcision. I haven’t forgotten.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 9, 2018, 7:59 pm

        || jon s: Eljay,
        I support the Nazi massacre? Have you lost your mind? … ||

        The Nazi massacre of Jews deemed by Hitler to be “not innocent”, correct. I haven’t lost my mind but you appear to have lost your memory: You recently made it very clear that you have no problem with massacres of people who have been deemed to be “not innocent”.

        || … As to your anti-Jewish bigotry, you manifested it by supporting a legal ban on circumcision. I haven’t forgotten. ||

        Once again, your memory is playing tricks on you (or maybe you just feel like playing victim again): I don’t support a ban on “Jewish circumcision” – I support a ban on any circumcision (other than for medical necessity) performed on a male below the age of consent. Once a male hits the age of consent, it’s entirely up to him.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 9, 2018, 9:55 pm

        John S is all surprised to learn that he does “support the Nazi massacre”. Unable to understand that supporting the Nazi massacre of one helpless population by the overwhelming force of an occupier is support to the Nazi massacre of other such. There you see the brilliant result of Zionist “education”.

        Besides, he uses the same post to reaffirm his support to the stone-age barbarity and unspeakably abject crime of genital mutilation of newborn babies!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 2:06 pm

        “As to your anti-Jewish bigotry, you manifested it by supporting a legal ban on circumcision. I haven’t forgotten.”

        Uh-oh! He hasn’t forgotten! “Jon s” is taking names, and he’ll be reporting us to the Anti-anti-Semitism Commission!

        Oh, BTW, “Jonny” you still haven’t told us what replaces the stuff cut or torn away in a ritual circumcision. Is there an advantage to having the penis ‘modified’ in that manner?

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 2:41 pm

        || Mooser: … Uh-oh! He hasn’t forgotten! “Jon s” is taking names, and he’ll be reporting us to the Anti-anti-Semitism Commission! … ||

        I hope the Commission doesn’t decide to deem us “not innocent” and massacre us. I know jon s would be OK with that, but I sure wouldn’t! :-(

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 4:46 pm

        “I hope the Commission doesn’t decide to deem us “not innocent” and massacre us.”

        If even one person is guilty, the rest of us must certainly be “not innocent”. Just “take an extreme example”. Besides, I’m sure God can sort us out.

      • jon s
        jon s
        April 10, 2018, 5:00 pm

        eljay,
        The Jews in the Holocaust were innocent, whatever they were “deemed by Hitler”. If you can’t acknowledge the difference between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals your moral compass is broken.
        As to circumcision, sure , your position is not anti- Jewish. Next comes a ban on shehitah, kosher slaughter (already in the pipeline in some places) and you’ll say it’s not anti-Jewish, it’s directed at ALL consumers of kosher meat. Then you can ban the celebration of Purim, and say that it’s not anti-Jewish, it’s directed at ALL those who celebrate Purim. ..

      • annie
        annie
        April 10, 2018, 7:30 pm

        jon, that’s kinda like saying “now it’s gay marriage, what’s next, marrying a child, or your pet?”

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 7:40 pm

        || jon s: eljay,
        The Jews in the Holocaust were innocent, whatever they were “deemed by Hitler”. If you can’t acknowledge the difference between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals your moral compass is broken. … ||

        jon, my moral compass is just fine, but you’re an idiot. You asserted that it’s acceptable to massacre people who are “not innocent”. If Hitler’s in charge and he says Jews are not innocent, according to your “moral compass” it’s OK to massacre them. I would disagree, but who am I to argue with you and Hitler?

        But enough about the past – let’s look (again) at how your assertion might play out in the future: If Israel were to withdraw from Occupied Palestine and the inhabitants of various formerly-Israeli, Jewish-only colonies were to remain in place and become belligerent against their new (Palestinian) government, according to your “moral compass” the Palestinians would have every right to label those inhabitants “not innocent” and to massacre them. Once again, I would disagree. It’s funny how I don’t assert that it’s OK to massacre Jews, but you do.

        || … As to circumcision, sure , your position is not anti- Jewish. Next comes a ban on shehitah, kosher slaughter (already in the pipeline in some places) and you’ll say it’s not anti-Jewish, it’s directed at ALL consumers of kosher meat. … ||

        I would ban the slaughter of all animals. You can call that “anti-Jewish” if you like but, once again, it just makes you look stupid.

        || … Then you can ban the celebration of Purim, and say that it’s not anti-Jewish, it’s directed at ALL those who celebrate Purim. .. ||

        I didn’t know Purim was celebrated by non-Jews but, that aside, why would I ban the celebration of Purim? Have you been hitting the bottle with Stefan Groever?

      • jon s
        jon s
        April 11, 2018, 5:04 am

        We see to be going around in circles so this will be my last comment on this thread.
        I don’t advocate “massacres”. I said that there’s a difference between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals. Blowing up a building full of civilians is not the same as blowing up a building housing terrorists. I made no distinctions based on ethnicity, religion, nationality, gender…
        A willingness to legally ban the practice of the Jewish religion – even of one important ritual-is in my view an expression of anti Jewish bigotry.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 11, 2018, 10:08 am

        || jon s: We see to be going around in circles so this will be my last comment on this thread.
        I don’t advocate “massacres”. I said that there’s a difference between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals. … ||

        Right: You’re against massacres of innocent people but you’re OK with massacres of not-innocent people. And you’re still too stupid to understand how that could possibly affect Jews.

        || … Blowing up a building full of civilians is not the same as blowing up a building housing terrorists. … ||

        So whether it’s the Warsaw Ghetto or Israeli colonies in Palestine, you’re OK with blowing up buildings housing Jewish armed terrorists or criminals. You’re OK with massacring Jews, you anti-Semite, but I’m not.

        || … A willingness to legally ban the practice of the Jewish religion … ||

        I’ve never said anything about banning Judaism, so stop being such a drama queen.

        || … – even of one important ritual-is in my view an expression of anti Jewish bigotry. ||

        Protecting children is about protecting children – it’s not about being anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim or anti-anyone else who advocates cutting flesh off the penises of infant males.

        Protecting animals is about protecting animals – it’s not about being anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim or anti-anyone else who advocates or partakes in the consumption of meat.

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 11, 2018, 11:22 am

        “Have you been hitting the bottle”

        and why not or are you implying that the bottle was innocent?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 5:07 pm

        “We see to be going around in circles…” “Jon s”

        Everybody must adjust their moral compass to align with “Jon s’s”.

        Cause if you don’t, he will say you don’t love Jews!.

  7. Ellen
    Ellen
    April 8, 2018, 4:57 pm

    The western world — which is really a small part of the world — has no grasp of the massive suffering in the past and ongoing in much of the rest of the world for most. What we call the Holocaust is just one of many many past and ongoing fast or slow persecutions of a group. It is not unique in its inhumanity to others.

    The west is so absorbed with itself.

  8. dimadok
    dimadok
    April 8, 2018, 5:42 pm

    Yesterday was 115 anniversary of Kishinev pogroms. Anyone knows about them , here ?
    This is one of the roots of Zionism and Jewidh self-determination.
    Not the Holocaust- it just sealed the verdict

    • eljay
      eljay
      April 8, 2018, 6:30 pm

      || dimadok: Yesterday was 115 anniversary of Kishinev pogroms. Anyone knows about them , here ? This is one of the roots of Zionism and Jewidh self-determination. Not the Holocaust- it just sealed the verdict ||

      So what you’re saying is that this “[root] of Zionism and Jewidh self-determination” helped establish a profound desire to advocate and defend the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality one of the core tenets of Zionism: Acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews.

      • dimadok
        dimadok
        April 8, 2018, 7:44 pm

        Universal application of justice doesn’t work when one party tries to exterminate another.
        That’s the main lesson of the Holocaust. As such I don’t see Israel policies as geared towards Palestinian extermination – it is focused on containment and threat elimination.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 8, 2018, 8:11 pm

        || dimadok: Universal application of justice doesn’t work when one party tries to exterminate another.
        That’s the main lesson of the Holocaust. … ||

        Right: For Zionists, the main lesson of the Holocaust is Acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews.

        Thank you for confirming my point.

        || … Israel policies … is focused on containment and threat elimination. ||

        But not on justice, accountability or equality. Again, thank you for confirming my point.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 4:51 pm

        “Universal application of justice doesn’t work when one party tries to exterminate another. “ “dimadance”

        Exactly. You see the final solution as exterminating the Palestinians.

    • Keith
      Keith
      April 8, 2018, 6:46 pm

      DIMADOK- “Yesterday was 115 anniversary of Kishinev pogroms. Anyone knows about them , here ?”

      So, do you have any hard data concerning the situation of Jews in Tsarist Russia versus non-Jews in Tsarist Russia? Or do you just accumulate incidents to support your ideology of never ending Jewish victimhood?

      DIMADOK- “Not the Holocaust- it just sealed the verdict”

      Prior to the Holocaust, the majority of Jews were either non-Zionists or anti-Zionists. In fact, the Holocaust eliminated the bulk of European anti-Zionists, clearing the way, so to speak. At the time, the Zionists recognized the importance of the unfolding Holocaust in achieving their nationalist objectives, hence, opposed rescue efforts to the Western democracies, something we have discussed before at length.

      • dimadok
        dimadok
        April 8, 2018, 7:48 pm

        First comment about hard data is purely infantile , since I haven’t hear or read about non- Jewish pogroms in Tzarist Russia , with state support and encouragement, and vocal opposition of liberal and progressive forces.
        Second comment about elimination of non- Zionist Jews is also very speculative , since Eastern Europe Jews were evenly split between Zionist and integration cause – both wiped by Nazis and their collaborators. US Jewish community remained the largest one and supports Zionist cause , especially after the shift and shock caused by the Holocaust.
        Keith – please read something about Russian Jews, perhaps you’ll learn more.

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 9, 2018, 12:07 am

        DIMADOK- “First comment about hard data is purely infantile , since I haven’t hear or read about non- Jewish pogroms in Tzarist Russia , with state support and encouragement, and vocal opposition of liberal and progressive forces.”

        That is the whole point, Dimadok. You do not know, nor do you care, about the fate of non-Jews in Tsarist Russia. Since they had a revolution, what does that suggest to you? Are you suggesting that for the various non-Jewish ethnic minorities in Russia, that the non-Jews had it better than the Jews? It is a pity that Yoni Falic is not here to comment on this BS.

        DIMADOK- “…since Eastern Europe Jews were evenly split between Zionist and integration cause….”

        If that was true, the Zionists would have not had as much difficulty in recruiting Jews to make aliyah. Even after WW II, the Zionists had to coerce the Jews in the DP camps to come to Palestine instead of their first choice of the Western democracies.

        DIMADOK- “US Jewish community remained the largest one and supports Zionist cause , especially after the shift and shock caused by the Holocaust.”

        Without the Holocaust and the Zionist exploitation of it, it is doubtful that Israel would have been established as a Jewish state.

      • LeaNder
        LeaNder
        April 9, 2018, 1:49 pm

        with state support and encouragement, and vocal opposition of liberal and progressive forces.

        Pavel Krushevan, and his comrades the Black Hundreds come to mind. But does that suggest state support? Yes the revolutionaries were dealt with more harshly then the extreme right, like the Black Hundreds. We may be getting there again. Who knows? A little bit of work ahead though to reduce all the nations to not more then 20% ethnic “Others”. According to what rules precisely?

        He later became speaker of the Duma of Kishinov, that’s true, but only after the progrom, as far as I recall. You are a scholar of Russian history?

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      April 9, 2018, 2:58 pm

      @dimadok

      Speaking of Holocausts, I wish the mainstream media would occasionally remind us of what was in fact the worst mass slaughter of humans in modern history. I am referring to the systematic murder of about 12 million Congolese by “Christian” Belgian colonists during the latter part of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century when King Leopold II ruled Belgium. He was the founder and owner of what was then known as the Congo Free State. One of the first people of note to refer to this holocaust was Samuel Clemens, aka, Mark Twain.

      The unspeakable horrors Belgium inflicted on the natives of the Congo, which also included amputations of arms below the elbow and beheadings, were prompted by pure greed and chronic racism, i.e., to force them to work like slaves in order to harvest natural rubber on rubber tree plantations, which prior to the invention of the synthetic version, was in huge demand in Europe and America to manufacture tires for the burgeoning automobile industry.

      Written by Adam Hochschild and published in 1998, “King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror and Heroism in Colonial Africa,” provides an excellent source to learn about King Leopold II and his monstrous crimes against humanity.

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 9, 2018, 3:20 pm

        “murder of about 12 million Congolese by “Christian” Belgian colonists during the latter part of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century when King Leopold II ruled Belgium”

        one of the main justifications for this humanitarian intervention was suppression of the horrors of the “Arab slave trade”, it’s an old story constantly reworked…serving the cause of human progress, why America is saving Africa as we speak.

      • April 11, 2018, 12:08 pm

        They were not part of the chosen people – so they don’t count as much.

  9. inbound39
    inbound39
    April 8, 2018, 6:39 pm

    Welll….that was quite a read. I have no dispute that the Holocaust was an extremely traumatic event. It has to be viewed objectively for sanity to prevail and with an unbiased eye. During WW2 ,20 million Russians were slaughtered by Germany. Hundreds of thousands of Prisoners of war were subjected to incarceration in Japanese run camps where treatment was equally horrific if not worse. When Japan invade China…same thing…wholesale slaughter and medical experiments conducted on Chinese while they were alive to simulate battle conditions. All these situations were traumatic and horrific for those who had the misfortune to experience them first hand. It is only the Jewish people who seem to keep their experience alive by reliving the trauma over and over again and using it as a sympathy card to gain impunity for wrongs they commit against others. We hear of no Russians doing the same thing with the exception of Russian Jewish Settlers in Israel. Phsychologically we do know the abused can go on to be the abuser if left untreated which seems to be Israel’s case. This however does not excuse Israel for its violations and criminal actions against the Palestinian People. Palestinians were not nor did they take part in the Holocaust. The Jewish people in Palestine simply have no excuse. The Holocaust does not give them the right to abuse others and is an insult to those who gave their lives in the Holocaust. Never Again covers and means and includes ALL People

    • April 8, 2018, 7:52 pm

      Don’t know if I posted this, came from A Coffin for Dimitrios, 1937, a book I’d been meaning to read for years, just did. (Hollywood changed it to ‘Mask of’)

      “For a fortnight, refugees from the oncoming Turks had been pouring in to the city to swell the already large Greek and Armenian populations. They had thought the Greek army would turn and defend Smyrna. But the Greek army had fled. Now they were caught in a trap. The holocaust began.”

      First reference to a holocaust?

    • dimadok
      dimadok
      April 8, 2018, 7:55 pm

      You hear of no Russians remembering the WWII and their losses ?
      Where do you live ?

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        April 9, 2018, 8:11 pm

        The Russians don’t use their losses in the same manipulative fashion as Israeli Zionists use the Holocaust.You know full well what I mean dimadok.

  10. CigarGod
    CigarGod
    April 8, 2018, 7:04 pm

    I’m okay with Phil’s “my people.”
    The context is certainly historical…and that includes the reasonable fear that history repeats itself.

    That he chooses the holocaust as the starting place for the trauma Jews visit on Palestinians tho, is not correct.
    Jewish migrants/Israeli’s had been traumatizing Palestinians for close to 100 years before.

    • yourstruly
      yourstruly
      April 8, 2018, 9:03 pm

      “Jewish migrants/Israelis had been traumatizing Palestinians for close to 100 years before.”

      So if not from trauma alone, how to explain the Jewish settler-state’s oppression of Palestinians?

      Colonialism – acquiring control of another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically, that’s how.

      Colonialism, a practice that is inherently so racist and dehumanizing that it turns settlers into oppressors.

      Having themselves been the target of racial (ethnic or religious) oppression does not immunize settlers against turning into racist oppressors.

      Only a universal recognition of the oneness of us all (the you are I, I am you, we are one) along with solidarity between all peoples can make ours the just and peaceful world that our very survival depends upon.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        April 8, 2018, 9:37 pm

        Yes, which means God changing his mind on the whole conquest thing.
        Since some folks think we are made in his image…he can do that.

      • yourstruly
        yourstruly
        April 9, 2018, 1:40 am

        don’t have faith in the sky woman thing, unless, that is, on turnabout day, unbeknownst to us mere earth mortals, She will be pulling the strings that move the 99% of us earth mortals to suddenly come to our senses and declare “can’t take the way it is no more”, after which sky woman again pulls on the strings so as to get us to rise up and do whatever needs to be done to change the world. Believers, of course will credit the sky-woman for the turnabout (working as she supposedly does in mysterious ways) but so long as the job gets done, whether human-made or god-inspired, will this really matter?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 9, 2018, 2:04 am

        Only a universal recognition of the oneness of us all (the you are I, I am you, we are one) along with solidarity between all peoples can make ours the just and peaceful world that our very survival depends upon

        Bingo. And the “universal recognition of the oneness of us all (the you are I, I am you, we are one)” is the diametrical opposite of calling X or Y “my people”. No matter how nice one’s intentions.

  11. Keith
    Keith
    April 8, 2018, 7:24 pm

    PHIL- “…she bought six new copies of that book, one for each child, so we would never forget.”

    Keeping the trauma alive? Keeping the sense of eternal victimhood alive? A passed down tradition of trauma and victimhood independent of empirical reality? What would “kinship” be without it?

    You do realize that between the end of World War II and 1967 (six day war), the Holocaust was not emphasized by the Jewish elite. It was only after 1967, following Israel’s decisive victory, that Israel was accorded the status as redemption for the Holocaust (Jacob Neusner) and the Zionists launched an ideological offensive centered around the Holocaust. Do you recall your mother appearing traumatized prior to the late 1960s or early 1970s?

    PHIL- “My chief interest is my people….”

    Further proof of the success of Zionism in re-establishing Jewish peoplehood. And who better to promote multiculturalism for non-Jews?

    PHIL- ” Jews are deeply traumatized by one of the worst historical experiences that has ever befallen anyone, just 70 years ago.”

    Specific details aside, mass murder has been the rule, not the exception, for virtually all of human history. And you are a citizen of a particularly vicious and bloody empire that currently poses an existential threat to human survival.

    • dimadok
      dimadok
      April 8, 2018, 7:51 pm

      Facts Keith , only facts.
      Yad Vashem was established in 1953, before the 1967 war with Egypt.

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 8, 2018, 11:49 pm

        DIMADOK- “Yad Vashem was established in 1953, before the 1967 war with Egypt.”

        So? Yad Vashem is an Israeli memorial preceding the propaganda blitz which followed the 1967 war. Norman Finkelstein talks about this in “The Holocaust Industry.” Jacob Neusner indirectly confirms this in “Stranger at Home: The Holocaust, Zionism, and American Judaism.” It was the 1967 war which enabled Zionist Jews outside of Israel to focus on the Holocaust as both unique in human history and the culmination of 2000 years of Gentile anti-Semitism. It was, in effect, the sacralization of the Holocaust. Holocaust memorials, Holocaust museums, Holocaust studies, Holocaust movies, etc.

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 10, 2018, 5:11 am

      You being mean, Keith? give Phil a break – his choice of words did generate conversation, no? of which we haven’t seen a whole lot lately……

      Not that i disagree with your points or anything (well, I rarely do, but when i do – it’s for a good cause, if not reason!). Especially about genocides being the rule rather than the exception in our lametable human history…..

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 10, 2018, 11:26 am

        DANAA- ” Especially about genocides being the rule rather than the exception in our lametable human history…..”

        Whoa, partner! I didn’t say “genocides,” I said “mass murder.” Not the same thing. Although genocides usually involve mass murder (technically not necessary), most mass murder does not involve genocide. Whether you refer to ancient times and the history of putting a conquered city to the sword, or to the slaughter of civilians in World War II (including Hiroshima and Nagasaki), mass murder is the rule, not the exception. The creation of the nation states of Europe was written in blood. In the 30 year war, about one-third the population of Prussia died, a “holocaust” with a small “h”. And look what the Europeans did in the Americas, Africa and the rest of the world. I stand by my statement.

        I do agree that Phil’s comment generated discussion.

      • gamal
        gamal
        April 10, 2018, 12:10 pm

        “You being mean”

        I don’t agree that this has anything to do with being mean to Mr. Weiss, for whom I entertain a good deal of respect and affection, he is kind of compelling, but…but

        what does it mean to look in to yourself and find trauma? is there any greater self hatred?

        Phillip is being mean to Weiss,

        And why not address it why waste suffering and trauma on worthless insubstantial material things, Weiss again unfair to himself…

        and Jigme already wrote the book, you think you will live in this world and not suffer and lose and grieve and sicken and die….fucking grow up, and while Mr Weiss is many multiples of the person I am, I am nothing so it doesn’t really help the great man..I mean my life is one huge disaster but inside and out i am in sweet gardens where nothing resolves where no questions arise where my love for all flows unceasingly i never even raise my voice except to sing or chant…it freaks me out some mornings a tsunami of love just washes me away…why waste pain when life offers not a sweeter thing..a source of freedom, happiness, bliss there is no happiness in samsara…

        Transforming Suffering and Happiness ( more properly carrying happiness and suffering on the path)

        “I am going to put down here a partial instruction on how to use both happiness and suffering as the path to enlightenment. This is indispensable for leading a spiritual life, a most needed tool of the Noble Ones, and quite the most priceless teaching in the world.

        There are two parts:

        1) how to use suffering as the path,
        2) and how to use happiness as the path.

        Each one is approached firstly through relative truth, and then through absolute truth”…..

        “Whenever we are harmed by sentient beings or anything else, if we make a habit out of perceiving only the suffering, then when even the smallest problem comes up, it will cause enormous anguish in our mind.

        This is because the nature of any perception or idea, be it happiness or sorrow, is to grow stronger and stronger the more we become accustomed to it. So as the strength of this pattern gradually builds up, before long we’ll find that just about everything we perceive becomes a cause for actually attracting unhappiness towards us, and happiness will never get a chance.

        If we do not realize that it all depends on the way in which mind develops this habit, and instead we put the blame on external objects and situations alone, the flames of suffering, negative karma, aggression and so on will spread like wildfire, without end. This is what is called: “all appearances arising as enemies.”

        http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/dodrupchen-III/transforming-suffering-and-happiness

  12. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    April 8, 2018, 7:25 pm

    Roman vishniac’s photos seem to be of Jews in Warsaw before 1939. Warsaw ghetto refers to the Jews in Poland after the Nazi occupation. These photos were shot for the Jewish Distribution Committee between ’35 and ’38.

    • dimadok
      dimadok
      April 8, 2018, 7:50 pm

      Good call Yonah

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      April 9, 2018, 11:22 am

      However, the ghetto was created on the same geographic footprint…which was the lowest cost housing.
      By the time the photographs were taken, the residents had been suffering under bad laws and conditions for many years.
      So, they are representative of a bigger historical picture.
      This is why he was taking the photographs…to document the gradual slide into horror.

  13. Danaa
    Danaa
    April 8, 2018, 8:12 pm

    On Holocausts and traumas: how come it is somehow “understandable’ to project their trauma on a convenient new victim (the palestinians) but others, who suffered every bit as much don’t get to do the same?

    Twenty Million Russians perished during the World war, many in camps and massacres not just on the battlefield. What was done to the Russians as people is, in many ways, just as bad if not worse than what was done to the jews of Europe. The nazi plan was always to go after the “slavs” when they were “done” with the jews. And Russians know it. There is hardly a single family in Russia that did not count a few dead of its own during WWII. Yet, their way of dealing with the trauma (at least in the last few decades) was to commemorate the dead through the March of the Immortals, which is carried out every year, in nearly every city. Through that march one hears hardly any invectives against the Germans. Neither do they stage “field trips” for the youths of Russia to the location of the death camps and to the places where countless civilians and/or soldiers were massacred.

    The Russians, every bit as much as Jews, should have had the right for compensation from Germany. So, how much did they get? Ok, they had east Germany under their control for some decades, but I did not hear of truckloads of “compensation” traveling from occupied East Berlin to Moscow.

    And yes, I do think that the years of Stalin and the Gulags and all the other bad stuff that happened in the Soviet union, was kind of an unintended result of the collective trauma. Too many good people died. Which allowed too many brutes to rise to power, among other things. But the Stalin is gone as is the Soviet Union. And the Russians, as a people seem genuinely interested in moving forward (with the West making it as difficult as possible, but that’s another story).

    Not to detract from anyone’s traumas, but the fact remains that different people choose to deal differently with them. Only the Jews received the reparations they did 9which israel happily pocketed). Only Israel harps endlessly about the persecution of the Jews as if they were the only victims ever. Of the nzis or the kossacks or the medieval knights and kings.

    Frankly, it’s getting a little precious to keep up that torch. A truly great and good people would have looked beyond the collective trauma by now and some did, even in Israel. But israel was founded on keeping the trauma alive as long as possible because it is their entire raison d’etre and it is the ONLY excuse they ever offered for persecuting, terrorizing and genociding the palestinians. It’s an excuse that gets ever weaker as the years pass, and hence the panic among Israelis and their jewish bretherns. Oh my! the younger generation is looking forward not backward! They might stop supporting israel so build yet another Holocaust memorial!

    Personally, I think israel – as an entity – has begotten a very petty, vengeful, small minded nation of whiners and braggarts. They, more than anyone else in the world, show just how wrong it is – psychologically – to keep up the memories of a past Holocaust long after its “sell by” date. Israel, single-handedly will, in due course destroy Judaism itself, both as a worthy religion and as a set of values. The only question is when the chickens will come home to roost.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      April 8, 2018, 9:42 pm

      Robert Cohen: “Because now the Nakba is Judaism. The Occupation is Judaism. The siege of Gaza is Judaism.”

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      April 9, 2018, 2:48 am

      The Soviets took compensation early. East Prussia. Occupied Germany was dismantled and shipped home. And Poland was shifted a couple of hundred miles east.

      Poland is a mess

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/21/poland-brussels-law-and-justice-eu-voting-rights

      “In fact, it is already trying to turn this situation to its advantage domestically by ramping up its propaganda machine, led by state-controlled media, to foster a siege mentality, suggesting Poland (not the current government, but the country) is being attacked by the EU just because it is asserting its sovereignty in national affairs. Party spokeswoman Beata Mazurek reacted to the EU’s decision by saying “this move does not strike at PiS, it strikes at Poland”. She also blamed the liberal opposition party, Civic Platform, which Law and Justice regularly portrays as a party of traitors working with Brussels against Polish interests. As the main state-controlled television station declared after the EU announcement: “Poland’s sovereign stance riles Berlin, Brussels and the opposition.”

      Ever since Law and Justice came to power it has portrayed itself as a resistance movement fighting against the domination of Poland by powerful western nations and corporations that have been imposing their will on the country ever since its economic transformation from communism started in 1989. In a 2016 interview, Mateusz Morawiecki, the new prime minister appointed last week largely to deal with Brussels-Warsaw tensions, said “today we see more and more that the invisible hand of the market has weakened us [Poland] through these many, many years … to a huge extent, we are dependent on foreigners”.

      Russia is a kleptocracy

      http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

      “The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin’s Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

      We thought we’d leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can’t leave this and become free, because these people don’t understand what freedom is.”

      Gitta Sereny has written about German trauma

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0140292632/

      German faith in hard money is a sign of trauma.

      Israel is a catastrophe.
      IT all goes back to the bloodands.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        April 10, 2018, 4:14 am

        Interesting comments. The different ways trauma plays out. In Poland it manifested as a hard turn right. In Germany as a love affair with money. In Hungary, as a complete rejection of migrants from the Middle east as well as deep suspicion of NGO’s and the West’s use of those as means of political manipulation. Also, complete distrust of Russia (have they really changed? what about the past?).

        In the US, it only ever had two major traumas – the Civil war and Vietnam. I use these examples because that’s the way trauma plays out in the collective consciousness – the origins are in a profound sense of loss.** WWI and WWII cannot be counted as traumas because the US ended up “winning”. That softens the sense of loss, limiting it to the individuals who lost rather than the nation.

        The reaction to Vietnam was predictable – kind of like Israel’s – more arms, more conquests, more “wins” however dubious they were. It is Vietnam that prevented a decent resolution in Korea and it is probably Vietnam syndrome that led to the many regime changes – from Chile to Iran to the attempts against Cuba and all the way to Iraq.

        Young countries, with little in the way of centuries old traditions tend to over-react, when calamities befall them. Israel is a good example. It really is a country without tradition and without real mooring in a rich past. All that hanging on to Jewish history, including biblical “history’ (which is mostly legends anyways) are desperate attempts to build a history from scratch. Judaism never was the basis for israel. Only the myth of some arbitrarily cobbled together Jewish “people”.

        And that’s one thing Phil probably doesn’t quite get, being so American and all (and he is, first and foremost, IMO, an American, with a jewish layer grafted onto that core identity). I doubt any American jewish person gets just how far from Judaism Israel really is. They know it’s in the Middle east, but that fact somehow doesn’t compute. To me, OTOH, as one who came from there, the israeli jews (taken en mass) are so much more similar to the Arabs of the Middle east than the Jews of new York. But this is another subject for another day. A day when people may perhaps be a little more open to “settling out of court” (a far off day indeed).

        _____
        **PS I should have probably added in the great Depression. Didn’t because i am not sure that trauma was as long lasting as the other two. After all, there was FDR, who kind of fixed things (for a while).

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        April 10, 2018, 12:20 pm

        Young countries find it hard to make sense of disruptions. Israel clings to the ancestral homeland BS because it has no roots. Israeli shared culture is as deep as the rain on a road after a shower.

        Israeli thinking is full of belief in human will, as if everything can be solved with the right attitude, as if everything will work out.
        Yesha must work because we are Jewish. And it can’t.

        You can’t move to the Middle East and start a nation over. Shit happens . Israel needs the wisdom in Ladino and Yiddish to get through the next few decades. IDF Hebrew won’t help.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        April 10, 2018, 11:06 pm

        “The different ways trauma plays out. In Poland it manifested as a hard turn right. In Germany as a love affair with money. In Hungary, as a complete rejection of migrants from the Middle east…”

        Dana, perhaps I misunderstand, but you seem to be suggesting that, were it not for some trauma or another, Poles would be left wingers, Germans would be indifferent to money, and Hungarians would welcome Middle Eastern migrants with open arms.

        This, in turn, seems to suggest that such decisions are not made rationally.

        Could it not be the case that (e.g.) the Hungarians, seeing the effects of mass Middle Eastern/African immigration on other European countries, have simply decided that they do not want the same sort of thing to happen in Hungary?

        That certainly seems to be a simpler explanation, and has the advantage of attributing rationality to the decisions.

        I am well aware that rationality plays a far smaller role in political decisions than I would like it to (and seems almost totally absent in the case of decisions made in Washington), but it is very dangerous to attribute decisions to non-rational motivations without strong arguments for doing so.

        Of course, it can also be dangerous to ignore the non-rational motivations, provided we know – on the basis of solid evidence – what those are and how they work.

        But when we say, on the basis of a guess, “they are doing this from [insert non-rational motivation]”, we are implicitly denying the rationality of others. We are saying that their non-rational motivations outweigh their rationality.

        And they can, using the same methods, equally well deny our rationality.

        And when we have done that, we have rejected the possibility of rational debate. Our only recourse then is to another logical fallacy: argumentum ad baculum.

      • April 11, 2018, 1:49 pm

        Danaa – I wonder how the trauma to the Palestinians will play out – I hope it makes them leaders in championing human rights across the globe – perhaps the Palestinians can sincerely and firmly stand for the “never again” creed.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        April 11, 2018, 4:47 pm

        RoHa, you interpret my words a bit too literally. Of course, I don’t think it is ONLY the trauma of a past event (WWII, Soviet occupation, etc) that caused the Poles to veer rightwards (and only in some respects) or the Hungarians to reject migrants, etc. These are complex developments that have to be seen in both historical and contemporary contexts.

        Though Poles and Hungarians chose very different paths, both show more than a few traces of resurgence of what can be called “national interest”. The EU is obviously the bigger threat now hanging over east European countries, as they try to figure out whether economic goodies are worth giving up on much of their sovereignty as a people, which is pretty much what belgium is demanding. Brexit happened for similar reasons – I saw it as a revulsion against the dictates of a European entity that was increasingly viewed as un-representing the interests of the British people (naturally, for many, economic “goodies” trump everything else. But not for everyone, apparently).

        But before you conclude I am backtracking – far from it. I would merely posit a somewhat more nuanced view of the complex factors that underlie nationalist sentiment. Both Poles and Hungarians (and Czechs and Slovanians) have suffered the double whammy of conquest – first, by Hitler’s forces and then by the Soviets, as they were used as pawns to separate spheres of influence. It is the combined experience of loss of agency that beget the collective trauma of which I speak.

        So, basically I am suggesting that this collective trauma of loss of independence and agency in running their own internal affairs played a role in these countries asserting themselves now. It’s really quite simple, people get sick and tired of always being told what to do. They rebel. The traumas suffered in the decades before are often a key factor in how strong the rebelion is.

        I do think that the years under Soviet rule play an important part in the emergence of nationalist sentiment in eastern Europe. That, IMO (and only an opinion it is), is the reason Orban’s party is so popular in Hungary, but say, Le Pen’s party or the AfD in Germany are not quite as victorious in Western Europe. The yearning for real independence is that much stronger for those who not only were conquered by the nazis but then had to endure decades under a not very welcome Soviet rule. For that very same reason, the rebellion against compromising the national will comes from the direction of the ‘right” (kind of more obvious in Poland than Hungary) than the left. The latter has simply become too entwined with something “communist” and lost the trust of the people*.

        Hope I clarified my point?

        ___
        * again, let’s not simplify too much here. The left is on the run everywhere in Europe and the reasons for that are, well, complicated, and go beyond the point I wanted to make here.

      • Maghlawatan
        Maghlawatan
        April 11, 2018, 10:50 pm

        Danaa

        “Brexit happened for similar reasons – I saw it as a revulsion against the dictates of a European entity that was increasingly viewed as un-representing the interests of the British people (naturally, for many, economic “goodies” trump everything else. But not for everyone, apparently).”

        Every country reacts differentl’y to the collapsing economic system. Groupthink is very hard to steer. People may feel that something is wrong but they won’t know how to change it

        The UK economy is broken . Real (post inflation) wages are 15% lower than a decade ago.
        The European Union is the problem. Right.
        If the UK leaves the EU wages won’t improve.
        Same in Poland. Dumping judicial independence won’t improve living standards.

        Trump promised to stand up.for workers. He gave a huge tax cut to the ultra rich.
        We are living a rerun of the 1930s. Look at who is behind Brexit and Orban and Likud. This ultimately is capital va labor. Same as it ever was.
        Some countries are easier to manipulate. That is where trauma comes in.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        April 12, 2018, 2:48 am

        Thanks for clarifying that, Danaa. I did, indeed, misunderstand.
        “… this collective trauma of loss of independence and agency in running their own internal affairs played a role in these countries asserting themselves” seems quite probable.

        “for many, economic “goodies” trump everything else. But not for everyone, apparently”

        Especially not for those who see the economic goodies going to people whom they already suspect of being traitors (the British upper and upper middle classes)while their own position gets worse.

        “The left is on the run everywhere in Europe…”

        I suspect that at least one reason for this is that what used to be the left has morphed into a movement to proclaim the interests of everyone except the working class (identity politics), and peddle fashionable nonsense that does nothing to help the working class.

        Right now, it seems that all that is left of the left is me, Keith, and Jeremy Corbyn. (And the latter two have fallen for at least one bit of the nonsense, while I don’t really like the working class. Or just about anyone else.)

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 12, 2018, 10:54 am

        ROHA- “And the latter two have fallen for at least one bit of the nonsense….”

        Trying to bait me? Well, it won’t work. (Huge sigh of relief from the other commenters.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 12, 2018, 6:53 pm

        “while I don’t really like the working class.”

        Yes, but you shouldn’t go around poking proletariat-looking strangers and asking “You sir, did you go to school?”

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        April 12, 2018, 10:28 pm

        Keith, trying not to, while at the same time pointing out a problem.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        April 12, 2018, 10:34 pm

        Mooser, I do not poke the plebians. I might catch something nasty.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 13, 2018, 1:19 pm

        ” I do not poke the plebians. I might catch something nasty.”

        Look at them, the prisoners of the gutter, condemned by every syllable they utter! By rights, they should be taken out and hung, for the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue!

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      April 9, 2018, 6:52 am

      Danaa,

      Thank you. That the Zionists are not only waiting but also trying their utmost to create an opportunity for an accelerated genocide of the owners of sovereignty over Palestine should be obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

      The following is a summary by Vahakn Dadrian*, one of the top genocide scholars:

      […] Genocide is nowadays characterized by four essential elements.
      1. The presence, between the perpetrator and the victim, of a longstanding problem whose solution has been resisted for a long time,
      2. A situation of inequality between the perpetrator and the victim that creates an overwhelming advantage for the former,
      3. The opportunity factor: even the most able of perpetrators must know to watch out until a convenient opportunity arises. This is the principal condition for final success; it is in fact a precondition. The formula that will lead action to success may be expressed as obtaining maximum gain with minimal risk. Wars, especially world wars, offer this kind of success opportunity, as shown by the Armenian and Jewish genocides experienced in the 20th Century.
      4. A desire to find a radical solution to seemingly endless conflicts: this desire culminates in the complete elimination by genocide of the designated target group.

      Point 3 in the above is probably the most relevant to your post.

      Also, Dadrian here summarizes past genocides of our time and geography but not exactly the ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the Zionists. In all cases he describes, a longstanding problem between perp and victim leads to the action, while in the case of the Palestinian genocide the necessity of it has been an obvious consequence of Zionism from the start and clearly formulated at least since the 1920es. Well in advance of any “Jewish trauma”.

      • jon s
        jon s
        April 9, 2018, 4:20 pm

        A unique aspect of the Holocaust is the absence of point #1. Unlike other genocides which took place in the context of a conflict – over territory, resources, political power, etc. – the Holocaust took place without any such conflict.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 9, 2018, 5:24 pm

        || jon s: A unique aspect of the Holocaust is the absence of point #1. … ||

        … 1. The presence, between the perpetrator and the victim, of a longstanding problem whose solution has been resisted for a long time ….

        Point #1 was not absent: Jews were the longstanding problem and a (final) solution was finally devised to deal with them.

        It’s strange, this obsession with elevating the Holocaust above all other crimes throughout history, as though there’s some sort of prize for Bestest Genocide Ever!

      • amigo
        amigo
        April 9, 2018, 5:58 pm

        “It’s strange, this obsession with elevating the Holocaust above all other crimes throughout history, as though there’s some sort of prize for Bestest Genocide Ever!” eljay

        There is , it is called The Jewish Historic Homeland , or more ,correctly, “Occupied Palestine “.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        April 9, 2018, 9:10 pm

        @eljay

        “Jews were the longstanding problem and a (final) solution was finally devised to deal with them.”

        What prompted you to say that…or why were Jews the longstanding problem?

        jon s
        “the Holocaust took place without any such conflict”
        To deny there was conflict is to bury your head in the sand. The final solution occured well after the nazis came to power and certainly after the Jewish boycott of Germany. That certainly doesn’t justify a single death let alone genocide. Although as I typed that I should perhaps remember the GoI cabinet minister who threatened the lives of people who support BDS. He seemed to think boycotts merits death.

        And you accuse eljay earlier in the thread of being antiJewish because of support for laws against circumcision. Such a cop out on your part and your ingrained racist supremacism shows. People can avoid body modification on children for any number of principled reasons. But apparently you feel there should be a Jewish exception to even principled reasons.

        Stick with teaching fake history. It’s all you can handle I suspect.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        April 10, 2018, 4:27 am

        eljay, I concur with your point. The germans – and indeed, countries such as Poland and Hungary, where jews played a vastly disproportionate role in the professions (law, medicine, journalism, accounting, finance, academia) did regard the jewish “problem” as, well, a problem. They recognized the innate advantaged jews had for the professions having been always urban (throughout the Middle Ages, and not necessarily by choice) and essentially confined to finance and banking. Just because the rules and strictures of the Middle Ages were responsible for this state of affaires does not mean peole did not see the consequences as highly problematic. Since they couldn’t go back 100’s of years and change the rules, they were left looking at a state of permanent disadvantage for their own Middle classes.

        I am not saying of course that this justifies genocide in any which way, but it does explain deep deep resentment. It did provide however a keg of gun powder that the Nazis, once in power, could exploit.

        jon s really needs to learn to read history with less prejudicial eyes. He might be able to note the nuances should he be so inclined (which I doubt. The jewish thing, etc.).

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 10:11 am

        || oldgeezer: @eljay

        “Jews were the longstanding problem and a (final) solution was finally devised to deal with them.”

        What prompted you to say that…or why were Jews the longstanding problem? … ||

        I thought it was a well-known fact that Hitler hated Jews and blamed them for Germany’s woes.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 10:19 am

        || Danaa: eljay, I concur with your point. … I am not saying of course that this justifies genocide in any which way, but it does explain deep deep resentment. It did provide however a keg of gun powder that the Nazis, once in power, could exploit. … ||

        I agree that the “longstanding problem” of hatred of Jews did not justify their destruction.

        || … jon s really needs to learn to read history with less prejudicial eyes. … ||

        In this case, at least, it seems that jon s deliberately overlooked the facts in order to justify his obsession with venerating the Holocaust as a “unique” crime.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        April 10, 2018, 11:12 am

        @eljay

        Ah … ok. Yes of course but the way it was stated I thought you were saying that Jews were indeed a longstanding problem. It surprised me so I’m glad I asked!

      • April 10, 2018, 11:43 am

        Danaa: “And that’s one thing Phil probably doesn’t quite get, being so American and all (and he is, first and foremost, IMO, an American, with a jewish layer grafted onto that core identity).”

        Phil first, second, and third is a Jew. Speaking of which:

        “I doubt any American jewish person…”

        Maybe the first step in talking honestly about Jews in the world, in America is dropping this ridiculous “American Jewish person…” Ever hear of any Orthodox Jewish people??

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 11:45 am

        || oldgeezer: @eljay

        Ah … ok. Yes of course but the way it was stated I thought you were saying that Jews were indeed a longstanding problem. … ||

        I understand the confusion – especially since I’ve been labelled an anti-Semite ;-) – but I was merely framing my statement according to the wording in point #1.

        || … It surprised me so I’m glad I asked! ||

        I’m glad you did, too, even though it won’t keep Zionists from accusing me of anti-Semitism.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        April 10, 2018, 12:14 pm

        @eljay

        Being labelled as such doesn’t have much of a sting when one is doing what is morally right.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 12:36 pm

        “I’m glad you did, too, even though it won’t keep Zionists from accusing me of anti-Semitism.”

        Zionists see an absence of philo-semitism as primo-fascist evidence of anti-semitism.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 1:28 pm

        || oldgeezer: @eljay

        Being labelled as such doesn’t have much of a sting when one is doing what is morally right. ||

        It’s a bit of a joke to be accused of anti-Semitism by Zionists seeing as how…
        – I advocate the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality; and
        – they actively undermine international laws and human rights and the protections they are meant to afford all people including Jews.

        I mean, hell, jon s recently argued that it’s OK to massacre people deemed to be “not innocent”. How fucking stupid does one have to be not to realize the potential danger of that sort of advocacy?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 3:03 pm

        “I mean, hell, jon s recently argued that it’s OK to massacre people deemed to be “not innocent”. “

        Aw, c’mon, “eljay”. Since we have never been the victims of any type of indiscriminate killing, we tend to be a little insensitive about it.

      • jon s
        jon s
        April 10, 2018, 5:15 pm

        I certainly don’t think that there should be some kind of macabre competition among genocides and didn’t “elevate” the Holocaust. Different genocides can have unique features. For example, the Rwandan genocide was unique in its intensity, the huge number of victims murdered in a relatively short time . I pointed out a unique feature of the Holocaust, that there was no conflict, Jews were murdered without being in a conflict, except the one in the Nazi hallucination.

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 10, 2018, 6:19 pm

        BROADSIDE- “Phil first, second, and third is a Jew.”

        I disagree. Phil seems quite assimilated to me. I think that Phil has to emphasize his Jewish bona fides to make much of what he says palatable to other Jews (however defined) because of the Jewish tendency to react more kindly to criticism from “fellow Jews” than to criticism/analysis from non-Jews. As it is, Phil has received a lot of criticism from other Jews including being called an anti-Semite. Some of the stuff on the web is really quite nasty. Also, I think that Phil’s involvement in the anti-Zionist effort has resulted in his coming in contact with more Jews and Jewish organizations that was the case before he started Mondoweiss.

        I am not sure why you object to “American Jewish person” phraseology which is another way of saying Jewish American which is analogous to Muslim American, etc. In the case of Jew versus Jewish, we get all tangled up in appropriate labels. In any event, discussing Jewish history and Jewish influence on the political economy is a tricky subject on Mondoweiss, at least for me. It is only when discussing Jews, Judaism and Jewishness that I experience moderation difficulties and find myself walking on egg shells and self-censoring. Jewish Zionists have been extremely successful in branding any examination of Jewish power and influence as anti-Semitc tropes. The mural that Corbyn previously defended as free speech a perfect example. It showed 6 bankers responsible for early global finance, 2 of which were Jews (actual history, by the way), therefore, it was branded as anti-Semitic! Charges of anti-Semitism little more than a pretext to attack Corbyn. Our media and entire doctrinal system has, to a significant degree, been Zionized.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 10, 2018, 6:23 pm

        “were saying that Jews were indeed a longstanding problem.”

        Oh, pshaw. I doubt the Jews back then caused any more problems than we do today.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 10, 2018, 7:32 pm

        || jon s: … I pointed out a unique feature of the Holocaust, that there was no conflict … ||

        You said that point #1 did not apply. Point #1 does not say anything about a “conflict”. As it stands, point #1 very much applies and that – much to your disappointment, I’m sure – lessens the “uniqueness” of the Holocaust.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        April 10, 2018, 8:54 pm

        @Mooser

        Collectively that would be none then in my opinion. Individually, no more than anyone else.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        April 10, 2018, 9:32 pm

        Here’s to show the unbelievable level of crass ignorance required by Zionism from its “history teacher” American settler-invaders (bolding and square brackets from me):

        I pointed out a unique feature of the Holocaust[TM], that there was no conflict, Jews were murdered without being in a conflict, except the one in the Nazi hallucination

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        April 11, 2018, 2:15 pm

        Keith: It is only when discussing Jews, Judaism and Jewishness that I experience moderation difficulties and find myself walking on egg shells and self-censoring. Jewish Zionists have been extremely successful in branding any examination of Jewish power and influence as anti-Semitc tropes.

        Hope you don’t mind me serving as your personal (and secret) attack dog…….heck, there was a job opening for crushing egg shells so I took it. Doesn’t pay so well, though……

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 11, 2018, 9:04 pm

        DANAA- “Hope you don’t mind me serving as your personal (and secret) attack dog……”

        Are you kidding? I love when you discuss these things which need discussing but, for a variety of reasons, are particularly sensitive on Mondoweiss. Your perspective as a former Israeli is particularly valuable. I would hardly describe you as an “attack dog,” particularly as my attack dog. I am always reassured by the extent to which we are more or less in agreement on so many of these issues. It is nice to know that others have drawn the same conclusions.

    • April 10, 2018, 11:32 am

      Shortest distance between two points: the road taking visiting pols from Ben Gurion Airport to Yad Vashem. As if Jackie O, raising money trying to save Carnegie Hall, brought along photos. “That’s Jack’s skull. I was trying to put it back on his head. Now: about Carnegie Hall…”

      • April 11, 2018, 9:51 am

        Keith:

        “I think that Phil has to emphasize his Jewish bona fides …”

        What?? Phil?? All he does is emphasize his Jewish bona fides. (“My chief interest is my people….”) For one afternoon, Obama told Israel to stop building settlements. Israel and its apologists never forgave him, despite Obama’s repeated attempts to make nice. (Including Elena Kagan — easily the least qualified person ever nominated to SC.) Phil’s no idiot; years ago he stopped giving a shit about what other Jews think of him. His is a one-man Jewish crusade.

        Keith: ‘“American Jewish person” phraseology which is another way of saying Jewish American.’ No, it’s not. At all. One is “American Jewish person,” the other “Jewish American.”

        I wrote a letter to a newspaper, about the racist Law of Return; editor published letter, but changed “Jew” to “Jewish person.” I wrote him: ‘I appreciate your publishing my letter, but doesn’t the fact you changed “Jew” to “Jewish person” really say it all?’

        And it does.

      • Keith
        Keith
        April 11, 2018, 11:21 am

        BROADSIDE- “And it does.”

        If your doctor happened to be Jewish, would you refer to him/her as a your Jew doctor? I think we need to be sensitive to how our words impact others. To put the shoe on the other foot, a lot of Jews are extremely insensitive to the feelings of those Gentiles they casually label as anti-Semites.

        As for Phil, there is a lot involved in running a website, not the least of which is Mondo’s appeal to progressive Jews and the impact Phil’s words have on funding. Also, the potential for lawsuits is always there. On balance, I think that Mondoweiss is doing a good job, better than I could do. They still let me comment here and this is the only website I choose to comment on. It is a lively comment section with the opportunity to criticize Phil if you choose to do so.

  14. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    April 9, 2018, 2:57 am

    2 books I want to buy are :

    1. Hunt for the Jews by Grabowski , about ww2

    2. Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations” by Ronen Bergman (translated from Hebrew)

    Zionism in a nutshell.

  15. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    April 9, 2018, 3:33 am

    I think Jewish trauma is an issue re: my generation (and older), born say in the first 25 years after hitler. and the primary fact as of 2018 is the identification with israel of these american jews over the age of 47, and that identification is a direct result of the trauma. whether this began in 1945, 1948, or 1967, there was/is for a large percentage of my generation, a knee jerk acceptance of the need for some sort of response to the holocaust that asserts the failure of nonviolence as a valid tactic.

    the younger jewish generation here in america is being raised without this trauma and that is for the good.

    the situation in israel by this point in time is primarily related to “colonialism” and constant war rather than the situation of Israel’s birth. the rejection of nonviolence is practically automatic and labeling it as related to trauma will get you nowhere and saying let’s talk it out, sounds touchy feely.

    i don’t think there’s anything that needs any psychoanalysis or singing kumbaya or hineh mah tov u’mah nai’m. i think there is a role to be played within the community as in: if not now. but they aren’t about psychoanalysis and dissecting the role that the trauma played in the embrace of Israel by those older than them.

    Convincing the nontraumatised American Jewish young ‘uns that they have little in common with Israel is the workable strategy. Convincing people who are attached to israel, that they should detach, because their attachment is a result of trauma and let’s have a discussion about the trauma, that’s not going to work, not here, not anywhere on this planet. certainly not when initiated by someone who often has espoused his basic apathy towards the disappearance of Jewish languages.

    Gaza is a mess, fer sure. It is for a true Israeli leader to decide that a modus vivendi has to be found with hamas. As long as the overall strategy is “put down your weapons and hand control over to fatah”, there will be this siege continuing and the logic of the siege leads to a logic of a “no go” zone, leads to strangulation and this situation. I think that Bibi might have figured this out, but he is more intent in staying in power than fixing anything. In fact Gaza, as in modus vivendi (rather than real solution) is solvable. But not if there’s no will to leave hamas in power. once you turn the policy into “get rid of hamas”, this situation is the inevitable result. (obviously mindsets of Bennet and Lieberman leads to worse results than might be hoped for, but once there is the mindset of “get rid of hamas”, rather than “fix the situation”, then this is the result.)

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 9, 2018, 1:25 pm

      ” need for some sort of response to the holocaust that asserts the failure of nonviolence as a valid tactic.”

      You bet, “yonah”! The fewer and fewer Jews there are, the more intermarriage, the more violent we should be. That’ll solve our problems.

    • annie
      annie
      April 9, 2018, 2:01 pm

      yonah, your “modus vivendi ” reminds me of hamas 2008 offer of a 10 year hudna or truce if israel returned to 67 borders. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24235665/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/hamas-offers-truce-return-borders/#.WsuksdPwZ_8

      the offer was made to carter during negotiations in syria. he took it seriously. the article claims “Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas.” and the state department “dismissed Carter’s assessment “.

      Convincing the nontraumatised American Jewish young ‘uns that they have little in common with Israel is the workable strategy.

      they seem to be figuring this out on their own and need little convincing. i’m reminded of david sheen’s 2014 “Terrifying tweets of pre-Army Israeli teens” http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli/

      Convincing people who are attached to israel, that they should detach, because their attachment is a result of trauma and let’s have a discussion about the trauma, that’s not going to work, not here, not anywhere on this planet.

      hmm. can you elaborate on why? you seem to sure.

      certainly not when initiated by someone who often has espoused his basic apathy towards the disappearance of Jewish languages.

      that’s so interesting you should say this. it’s my understanding yiddish was sort of dropped by a whole generation of jewish immigrants who arrived in the US. for whatever reason, to assimilate perhaps. but many didn’t teach their own children yiddish. i don’t know if that could be ascribed to “apathy”, but some might consider it such. do you think there is resentment by the youth to their parents generation for this absence?

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 10, 2018, 5:04 am

      Convincing the nontraumatised American Jewish young ‘uns that they have little in common with Israel is the workable strategy. Convincing people who are attached to israel, that they should detach, because their attachment is a result of trauma and let’s have a discussion about the trauma, that’s not going to work

      I can’t believe it, but I actually agree with this statement. based on my own observations it is true that once people become attached to something on an emotional/psychological level, they are not likely to let go (well, except for a few).

      However, before it gets to your head, I’ll have to take exception to your description of Gaza as a place ruled by the “bad” hamas. As I said before, hamas, is just a boogey-man word, invented by israel to give them an excuse for keeping the Gazans locked in a concentration camp. If Hamas came out tomorrow as followers of Mother Theresa or Ghandi, israel would find fault with that.

      The proof? every time Hamas and the PA negotiate some agreement israel pulls it asunder. To not see that is to be willfully blind, which I am sure is a fate you are trying to avoid. So please revisit your convictions on this matter, if you will. Insight does wonders for one’s health, you know. Cures much. Beats an expensive spa any day of the week. Insights is what keeps me happily furious, for example (doctor very happy with my blood pressure lately. Told him its middle eastern politics. He seemed doubtful. One can wonder why, right?).

  16. dianab
    dianab
    April 9, 2018, 4:46 am

    Re “Jewish Trauma”: In Israel, the government and civic society do their utmost to make sure that the Jewish population will feel eternally traumatized so as to support the state’s agenda. As an assimilated, non-affiliated U.S. Jew, I’m not sure what keeps U.S. Jews traumatized. Perhaps it’s synagogues, summer camps, civic organizations who think that being a good Jew means to follow Israel’s example re trauma — without necessarily recognizing that this is psychologically destructive. I guess some people feel comfortable thinking of themselves as victims. Very sick indeed.

  17. Sulphurdunn
    Sulphurdunn
    April 9, 2018, 8:55 am

    “…the smartest and best educated…” Really?

    • chocopie
      chocopie
      April 9, 2018, 2:51 pm

      You said it! And in spite of all the evidence that they’ve been supplanted by Asians ; )

  18. JimMichie
    JimMichie
    April 9, 2018, 9:35 am

    ” Jews have to sort out our trauma. We need pressure from others, and some kindness; but the kids need to take control and work this out with the parents and grandparents, and soon. We owe that to the world.”

    Indeed, Phil! But it is so tragically sad that Zionists and Zionist sympathizers (Jewish and non-Jewish) have chosen to resort to far too many of the very same “tactics” used by the Nazis: brutality, racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, land theft, fascism and, YES, terrorism. This hideous reaction to the Holocaust of the 1930s and 40s , in effect, created a “slow-motion holocaust” for Palestine and its people, psyhchologically plunging Zionist and Zionist sympathizers into abject denial and cognitive dissonance for the past 60 years.

    As a “gentile” (yes, in lower case), I truly hope and pray that the ongoing “Great March of Return” in Gaza will serve as a powerful catalyst in finally breaking through to Zionist Israel and its “leaders” that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! It is far past high time for Zionist Jews and Zionist sympathizers to truly begin practicing Judaism and to accept Palestinians as fellow human beings who have every right to their FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND EQUALITY!

  19. vporzsolt
    vporzsolt
    April 9, 2018, 10:43 am

    Great stuff, Philip. Many thanks for your honest and personal reflections. Of course affirmation of historical cultural identity does not exclude commitment to humanity as a whole. Edward Said understood this. The trauma has been so fraudulently used by the Zionist movement to bind Jews to Israel. Their influence is waning, but far too slowly.

  20. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    April 9, 2018, 2:45 pm

    @Danaa
    “Personally, I think israel – as an entity – has begotten a very petty, vengeful, small minded nation of whiners and braggarts”
    Nailed it !!

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 10, 2018, 5:07 am

      Glad you liked it. Will try to do it one better next time.

  21. Steve Grover
    Steve Grover
    April 9, 2018, 2:59 pm

    “I looked at it Jewishly.” No you didn’t. You don’t look at anything “Jewishly” because if you did you never would’ve said “My mother was somehow traumatized by the Holocaust.”
    Somehow traumatized? How couldn’t she be traumatized? And your mother says “She sometimes said that she had one child for each million”. And you honor that with Mondoweiss and you say you think “Jewishly”?
    And you mother’s best friend Golda says “Is your blog Mondoweiss a desperate attempt to make your name known (a result of your failure to do so in literature), or is it a byproduct of your unresolved conflict with your father? I want to cry. Golda.” And you retaliate against Golda and your mother by cultivating this Lillian Rosengarten character.

    Phil you truly are a pathetic person. The reason for your pathos is the Shoah. And your pathos manifests itself by blaming the Jews and hating Israel.

    • chocopie
      chocopie
      April 9, 2018, 4:49 pm

      Is that you, Golda?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 4:37 pm

        “Grover”, don’t be such a tsitsa makher already.

    • JimMichie
      JimMichie
      April 9, 2018, 9:43 pm

      That’s what I don’t like about you Zionists, Steve, you’re extraordinary, exceptional, when it comes to projecting your guilt, your abject denial and your cognitive dissonance onto someone else. Moreover, all of you Zionists claim to practice Judaism when the world knows all too well that you don’t. The world now knows that you Zionists have tragically and ironically adopted many of the very same “tactics” used by Nazi Germany to execute the Holocaust: brutality, ruthlessness, racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, land theft, fascism and terrorism in your “treatment” of your “neighbors”, yes, your “neighbors” in Palestine. Yet you wrap yourselves in the star of David and claim to be the “victims” of “terrorism” as you continue to murder, maim, torture, and unjustly imprison Palestinians and steal whatever you wish at gunpoint from the Palestinians. I have some news for you, Steve, your ugly, evil, fascist charade is coming to an end and may the God of us all–and that includes you–have mercy on the lot of you!

  22. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    April 9, 2018, 6:55 pm

    RE: “The destruction we saw in Gaza reminded me of those pictures of the Holocaust” ~ Weiss

    JUST A SMALL SAMPLE:

    Pathological Narcissism and Acute Anxiety Symptoms After Trauma: A Study of Israeli Civilians Exposed to War
    Besser A, Zeigler-Hill V, Pincus AL, Neria Y.
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6f5f/653af8d9ca37d5a6bccc3920bba77fd21ff1.pdf

    Psychoanalysis, Identity, and Ideology: Critical Essays on the Israel/Palestine Case
    edited by John Bunzl, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
    https://books.google.com/books?id=nGCSBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=israel+narcissistic&source=bl&ots=9mD-UWQksw&sig=hKWgoNLCM-rK7LqK8m2hybFcS18&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEsu-7pafaAhVR3FMKHfIkCss4ChDoAQg8MAM#v=onepage&q=israel%20narcissistic&f=false

    Fratricide in the Holy Land: A Psychoanalytic View of the Arab-Israeli Conflict
    By Avner Falk
    https://books.google.com/books?id=4CNVmZIen3AC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=israel+narcissistic&source=bl&ots=3ILEMhSwsZ&sig=IsFXe0nKaoYVNNA0QmNjrnSHUB4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEsu-7pafaAhVR3FMKHfIkCss4ChDoAQhcMAk#v=onepage&q=israel%20narcissistic&f=false

  23. John Douglas
    John Douglas
    April 9, 2018, 10:44 pm

    Statements that can in principle, even hypothetically, be neither confirmed nor falsified are meaningless. Golda’s statements about unconsciously doing this or that were pure blather. Claims that some artificially constructed grouping needs to work out something is wasted breath. Grover’s claims about what someone is “really” doing, under the surface, hidden from self and others is pure claptrap. It’s all using space and time and energy for no practical purpose. Dr. Freud has no clothes. He was naked from the beginning. Let’s get on with business.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 10, 2018, 2:22 pm

      “Let’s get on with business.”

      A more complete, detailed and factoidally-based diagnosis of Phil Weiss’s malady is given in “Hophmi’s” classic presentation “The Phil’s will Fall Away”.

      • John Douglas
        John Douglas
        April 10, 2018, 5:56 pm

        Hophmi’s written the usual nonsense about self-hatred. That claim made about someone has no more cognitive meaning than, “Well, I don’t like what you write. I want you to feel bad.” It’s like a kid in a schoolyard, “Your mother’s fat!” In any case, even if someone were motivated to say something because he disliked his own ethnic grouping, whatever he said would still be either true or not. The motive for saying it is irrelevant. Freshman logic students know that.

  24. WH
    WH
    April 10, 2018, 2:33 am

    This Phil-bashing really misses the point. He’s not saying ‘his people’ are more important than others, he’s admitting that one has a natural bias towards those one perceives as one’s ‘own kind’ and that his approach focuses on Jews and changing their awareness. In order to change their awareness, he has to acknowledge how it is and where it’s come from. Just because the Holocaust is used against the Palestinians and held up by many as the greatest tragedy of all time, forgetting the many others perpetrated elsewhere in the world, this doesn’t mean we somehow have to downplay it. Empathy with humans should involve all humans; then one can move on to the specifics of who is no longer the victim and who is. It’s ridiculous to say ‘well 6 million is less than x million elsewhere’ when we decry the massacre of 1500 Palestinian civilians in 2014; if we take that kind of quantitative approach, the killing of Palestinians is fairly insignificant. It’s also strange to have zero empathy for inherited second- or third-hand trauma among Jews when we give attention to the grandchildren of those expelled in the Nakba, who may be living stable lives in the US or Europe, but still feel a longing for the homeland of their grandparents – a place they’ve never seen. The difference is that Jews are no longer the victims and Palestinians have not yet received justice; but they’re still both groups of human beings whose experiences should be understood by people who claim to be motivated by humanitarianism.

    • WH
      WH
      April 10, 2018, 2:44 am

      (Not to mention the fact that Phil has felt more personal consequences and hostility as a result of his activism than the majority of his armchair detractors here.)

  25. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    April 10, 2018, 6:50 am

    Phil didn’t really get into what trauma does to Israelis.

    There are 2 key aspects imo

    1. The mizrahi Jews have drunk the trauma Kool aid of the Ashkenazi Jews. Exhibit 1 is Danny Danon

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVTC9frqMA&t=9s
    he sounds like a fucking idiot but not if you view him through the trauma lens

    2. What trauma does. It makes Israelis intransigent

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/06/rejected-parents-beliefs-identity-sexuality
    “If they are strict and inflexible – unable to move with the times or accept anything other than their values – this is probably the result of trauma: either their own trauma or transgenerational trauma – trauma passed on to them by their parents.
    When we are not traumatised, we can live fluidly in the present, responding to situations as they arise. But when traumatised, people stick to strict rules and codes, as though living in emergency mode, and they are fearful of deviating from these. So when they see their children being very different from them, they panic. In their belief system, to deviate from the rule book is to be cast out. And to be cast out is to be unsafe, and possibly to die.”

    Trauma explains what Zionists do to Finkelstein and what happened to Goldstone. It also explains the juxtaposition of the Jewish dietary laws and hasbara.

  26. guyn
    guyn
    April 10, 2018, 8:50 am

    @chocopie

    :)))

  27. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    April 10, 2018, 10:16 am

    Israel is poisoned by trauma.

  28. Maghlawatan
    Maghlawatan
    April 10, 2018, 10:19 am

    Here is a super example. You cannot call Jews who kill terrorists. In the Parliament. Chaos. Zoabi is a jewel.

    https://youtu.be/PdpWtJD7pQw

  29. Mooser
    Mooser
    April 10, 2018, 1:33 pm

    This article recalled to me a searing traumatizing experience I had with anti-semitism. I am sure that, apart from the details, it’s a pretty typical experience.
    I was 17 (so it woulda been ’67 or so) and while discussing automotive technology with two non-Jewish friends one afternoon after school, one of them made a rather invidious remark about Jews and a certain GM luxury car.
    Naturally, my energetic fist was eager to resist a dictatorial word and was ready with a knock-down blow.
    Arriving home, feeling I had done a man’s work, I told my Dad I had been the victim of anti-semitism and fought back! Unfortunately, my fame had preceded me, and Dad wasn’t having it:

    Dad: “Listen boychik, I know you. You can be obnoxious, aggressive, and you like to fight. I bet you started it, and finished it.”

    M: “But Dad, he said Cadillacs are “Jew-canoes”! I will not have our religion associated with a live-axle, cam-in-block, oversized gas hog like that.”

    There was a long pause after that, only interrupted by a soft popping sound which was, I realized much later, my father’s arteries. I thought I heard him mutter something about ‘making room at Pilgrim State’. But things then took, I thought, a hopeful turn:

    Dad: “By the way, did you win the fight?”

    Ahhh! This was more like it! Daddy’s own inglourious Basterd!

    M: You bet I did, Dad! I floated like a butterfly and stung like a bee!

    Dad: “Well his parents just called from the hospital, and they plan to sue like wasps, if he’s more than a little shopworn. You might get arrested and charged, too.”

    He left me to contemplate the Charles White prints on my bedroom walls.

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 11, 2018, 2:37 am

      Mooser, now that was really funny! as good as that primo-fascist you threw out a while ago.

      More tales of encounters with your dad, please. Mom too. Actually, anyone.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 1:23 pm

        “More tales…”

        Well, I was going to write a song about this one, so I checked google to see if my title is original. It isn’t.

    • Tuyzentfloot
      Tuyzentfloot
      April 11, 2018, 6:04 am

      Your dad was wise even if I see good reasons to be insulted.
      The idea of an American’s disdain of live axles in 67 does not sound very convincing though.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 3:53 pm

        “The idea of an American’s disdain of live axles in 67 does not sound very convincing though.”

        Remember, my immediate family was Reform. There were also Conservatives who accepted the De Dion design.

    • guyn
      guyn
      April 11, 2018, 8:58 am

      Interesting story, and thanks for the Charles White reference, I didn’t know him. I’m actually reading Time on the Cross.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 11, 2018, 12:56 pm

        I never knew where those prints came from at the time or what they were, but I loved them. Wish I had still had them.

    • April 11, 2018, 10:04 am

      I thought it was Bagel Boats.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 13, 2018, 2:35 pm

        “I thought it was Bagel Boats.”

        That was a fleet of out-board powered inflatables used to bring fresh baked goods to pleasure-boats in Miami’s many marinas and yacht-basins.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 13, 2018, 2:43 pm

        || Mooser: “I thought it was Bagel Boats.”

        That was a fleet of out-board powered inflatables used to bring fresh baked goods to pleasure-boats in Miami’s many marinas and yacht-basins. ||

        The way you tell it, Jews are like donuts: Is there anything they can’t do? ;-)

  30. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    April 10, 2018, 1:50 pm

    Some encouraging news at last on the Jeremy Corbyn front:
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-s-labor-party-suspends-ties-with-jeremy-corbyn-1.5990356
    “Gabbay accused Corbyn of crossing “a dangerous line” between legitimate criticism of Israeli policy and anti-Semitism”

    Haven`t seen the full text of the letter but would love to see if and what he has described as “legitimate criticism” of Israeli policy”. Probably along the lines of it is not legitimate and is therefore “Anti- Semitic”to criticise Israel for a policy of indiscriminatly murdering innocent
    civilian demonstrators who are yet again victimising us poor eternally threatened Israeli Jews by forcing us to shoot them etc etcZioblah Zioblah Zioblah.

    It must have been a heartbreaking decision for him and no doubt deeply traumatising. Especially for a closet Fascist masquerading as a Socialist.

    Good riddance

  31. dx
    dx
    April 11, 2018, 5:40 am

    I guess not being Jewish gave me a more clear-eyed perspective. The fact that the abused became the abuser was plainly obvious to me all along. Have to wonder and worry about what happens to this cycle in the future. Perhaps that is the true Israeli fear at this point.

    What if Palestinians were given equal rights and freedom? What would they do to those who had denied and abused them for over 50 years–whether in the same or a separate country? Could the Palestinians, as a people, rise abuse what was done to them and stop the cycle of violence and oppression and forgive their abusers? Could they behave better than the Jewish Israelis have done and continue to do?

    I think about this whenever I read about the population statistics that are written about so seriously–maintaining the Jewish character (majority) and state and all.

    Had an Israeli friend. The government was paying to try to get her pregnant through artificial insemination to boost the Jewish population–complete with all sorts of genetic testing. I can’t really quite explain it, but that just feels like some creepy sci-fi dystopian novel with echoes of the “perfect race” thing the Nazis tried to do.

    Israeli society is pretty messed up.

  32. jon s
    jon s
    April 11, 2018, 2:47 pm

    Starting this evening Jews all over the world are remembering and mourning.

    Dan Pagis

    WRITTEN IN PENCIL IN THE SEALED RAILWAY-CAR

    here in this carload
    i am eve
    with abel my son
    if you see my other son
    cain son of man
    tell him that i

    Translation: Stephen Mitchell

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 11, 2018, 4:50 pm

      I see what you mean “Jon s”. Things were supposed to be perfect for us, but they didn’t turn out that way.

      I just don’t see how anybody elses troubles can compare. Thanks for bringing us back to what’s really important today.

    • eljay
      eljay
      April 12, 2018, 8:14 am

      || jon s: Starting this evening Jews all over the world are remembering and mourning. … ||

      PARAPHRASING A ZIONIST’S “MORAL COMPASS”

      there in that building
      are not-innocent Jews
      they are yours to massacre
      had they been innocent
      i would have urged you
      to spare them

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 12, 2018, 4:33 pm

        “eljay”, that was lovely.

        “Had they been innocent, I would have urged you to spare them”

        Ahh, has there ever been a more bee-yoo-tiful statement of man arriving at his moment of redemption.

      • eljay
        eljay
        April 12, 2018, 9:05 pm

        || Mooser: “eljay”, that was lovely. … ||

        Thanks. jon s was truly inspiring.

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      April 12, 2018, 7:38 pm

      jon s Starting this evening Jews all over the world are remembering and mourning.

      Mourning what? surely not just one holocaust among many?

      Would that they add the Naqba victims to their many mournings.

      Would that they add the young Gazans they murdered and the West bank persecutions and pogroms to their mournings.

      Would that they add the countless Iraqis Israel insisted on wiping out to the list of victims to be “remembered”.

      But they won’t, of course, because Jews supposedly mourn only Jews as even those other lives, the ones that perished in the same places and over the same time, but failed to be Jewish enough, will neither be mourned, nor remembered.

      That is how xenophobic, ethno-tribalism works and always did.

      Only our victims really count. The rest? well, yes, something happened to them too. Life is tough, so no remebrance or mourning for them. Not from us. We have room in our hearts only for our own Holocausts……

      • catalan
        catalan
        April 12, 2018, 8:47 pm

        “Mourning what? surely not just one holocaust among many?”
        I am not mourning anything. I know what they did in Babiy Yar and Thessaloniki. However, we are not victims any more. We are extremely successful and wealthy in the US and Israel is flourishing economically. Our enemies are the ones that are victims now. Incidentally, I think that recent events have ensured that Gaza will be under blockade for at least the next several decades.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 13, 2018, 1:41 pm

        “We are extremely successful and wealthy in the US and Israel is flourishing economically. Our enemies are the ones that are victims now.” “catalan”

        There it is. I just knew that once the western world made religion and “ethnic” affiliation an individual choice, we would come up with real, beneficial, and most of all positive reasons for people to stay Jewish.

        Damn, “catalan”, we should charge dues (or take a..oh, never mind); wealth, success, and a chance to victimize our “enemies”? Worth a lot.

  33. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    April 12, 2018, 7:49 am

    @jon s

    IDF poet 2017 unnamed

    Video recorded in colour from the IDF shooting gallery platform overlooking Gaza

    When he stops, you take him down
    Are you on him
    I can’t fire because of the barbed wire
    Take out the one in the pink
    Son of a bitch
    What a legendary film . I haven’t seen this kind of thing for a long time

  34. jon s
    jon s
    April 12, 2018, 4:31 pm

    I know that I said that I wouldn’t post any more comments on this thread, but eljay’s comments are so absurdly over-the-top that I can’t resist.
    What have we got here?
    I wrote that I don’t make any distinctions based on ethnicity, nationality, religion and so forth but that I do make a distinction between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals. Eljay then performed a spectacular, jaw-dropping, logic-defying , intellectual summersault and , based on that obvious (to me ,at least) moral distinction accused me of supporting massacres, including the massacre of Jews, no less!
    He also called me an idiot, which is the only point he made with which I tend to agree. I must be an idiot for bothering to reply to such nonsense.

    • eljay
      eljay
      April 12, 2018, 9:02 pm

      || jon s: I know that I said that I wouldn’t post any more comments on this thread, but eljay’s comments are so absurdly over-the-top that I can’t resist. … ||

      They’re so on-target that you can’t resist.

      || … What have we got here?
      I wrote that I don’t make any distinctions based on ethnicity, nationality, religion and so forth but that I do make a distinction between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals. … ||

      Right, so if a group of Jews is deemed to be not-innocent, you’re saying it’s OK to massacre them.

      || … Eljay then performed a spectacular, jaw-dropping, logic-defying , intellectual summersault and , based on that obvious (to me ,at least) moral distinction accused me of supporting massacres, including the massacre of Jews, no less! … ||

      Nothing amazing about using your own words against you. But you’re free to state clearly – as I did – that no-one has a right to massacre anyone, ever. Can you do that?

      || … He also called me an idiot, which is the only point he made with which I tend to agree. I must be an idiot for bothering to reply to such nonsense. ||

      No, you’re an idiot for not understanding that your advocacy of massacres of not-innocent people can be applied to Jews as well as non-Jews and you’re an idiot for not understanding that that means you’re OK with massacres of Jews.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 13, 2018, 1:49 pm

      “What have we got here?”

      Gee, “Jonny-pie”, I would say that what we have here is a guy who better check his karma-account, and make sure he doesn’t come back as a trout, crappie, or bass.
      Because you rise to the bait, every time.

      • annie
        annie
        April 13, 2018, 2:28 pm

        you’re ripping my gut today mooser. that and the hood comment to yonah — barely catch my breath.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        April 13, 2018, 7:20 pm

        A laugh a day keeps the doctor away.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      April 13, 2018, 9:01 pm

      “I wrote that I don’t make any distinctions based on ethnicity, nationality, religion and so forth but that I do make a distinction between innocent civilians and armed terrorists and criminals” “Jon s”

      And that is why you had to mob-stomp the Eritrean man who wandered into Beersheba on Oct. 18, 2015, till he was dead, and immediately comment on Mondo that you had survived a “terrorist attack in Beersheba”. You can make distinctions! It isn’t everybody who has the authority to make that kind of life-and-death distinction.

  35. Keith
    Keith
    April 14, 2018, 3:22 pm

    Folks, a thought has occurred to me regarding Jews and trauma. Normally, one would expect trauma to recede with the passage of time, however, has that been the case with the Holocaust? Has the exploitation of the Holocaust following the Six Day War in 1967 (Holocaust movies, Holocaust museums, Holocaust studies, etc) actually served to increase the sense of trauma? Had this been studied, I wonder what the results would be comparing perceived Holocaust trauma in the 1950s and 1960s versus trauma in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. My gut feeling is that all of these movies and other forms of emphasis have had the desired effect and Holocaust trauma grown stronger, at least for older Jews.

    • Maghlawatan
      Maghlawatan
      April 14, 2018, 4:50 pm

      Keith, intergenerational trauma can persist for a lot longer than 70 years.

      there was a comment on the Irish times site about Irish attitudes to birth outside marriage in the 1980s

      “AnChiarogEile

      @Honey The ferocious puritanism of Irish Catholicism in the 19th and 20th centuries probably stems as much from the experience of the Famine as from the Church’s own dogma. People had seen in the starkest form imaginable where early marriage and big families tended to lead in an entirely rural country, so post-1850 they went in for rigorous population control by the only means available at the time: not having sex until you could afford to maintain a family; which for many people like Michael Collins’s father meant their late sixties, and for many more people meant “never”. A moral constabulary was needed to police this social order: and the Church gladly stepped into that role. The only trouble was that in Ireland the regime thus imposed lasted well into the age of efficient birth control, long after it had disappeared even in countries like Spain. But the urge to dictate is still there in ghostly form: a bit like a dog turning round several times before it lies down to sleep, flattening the undergrowth of the forests where its ancestors lived.«

      That would imply the trauma of the Irish famine (late 1840s) persisting for almost a century and a half in Irish groupthink.

      Zionism is a response to the trauma of pogroms and the Shoah in the form of “fuck you”. Not very rational but trauma is not rational.

  36. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    April 14, 2018, 5:39 pm

    @Keith
    ” My gut feeling is that all of these movies and other forms of emphasis have had the desired effect and Holocaust trauma grown stronger, at least for older Jews”

    I think as with physical “staple ” diets the Holocaust “trauma” has been a psychological ” staple ” diet for older Jews and they feed themselves on it whenever they have to confront the reality of atrocities visited by Jews on innocent people as was the case for Jews during the Holocaust. They thus avoid having to address and deal with the reality. A significant and growing proportion of younger non – Israeli Jews fortunately are confronting the reality and addressing it for what it is = gross ongoing violations of Human Rights and contrary to the central tenets of their religion. This along with assimilation is spooking the older generation of Jews outside of Israel.
    As for younger Jews in Israel itself well they are brainwashed from birth and assimilation is aggressively discouraged by the only democracy etc yawn. Despite that with the internet and travel a significant and I hope a growing number will see the light in due course.

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