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We repudiate any right to Jewish self-determination in historic Palestine

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This statement was released on July 23 as “International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network’s Response to the New Israeli Law Legalizing Apartheid.”

We write to respond to a new declaration of legal apartheid and to current actions of legalized state violence. As Jews in support of Palestinian self-determination, we respond to these events without surprise, but with indignation, and with renewed commitment to struggle in solidarity with Palestinian people. Last week, following President Donald Trump’s move to produce official U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, the Knesset passed legislation titled the “Nation-State Basic Law,” declaring, “Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it.” To emphasize their desire for the maximum presence of Jews and the minimum presence of non-Jews throughout historic Palestine, the Israeli armed forces carried out one of their most extensive bombardments of the Gaza Strip in years, in what they called reaction to activity from the Palestinian resistance.

Those two statements – one in law, and the other through force – affirm the power of the U.S.-Israeli partnership in colonization, and speak to Israel’s determination to continue its apartheid project, and to break the Palestinian relationship with the land.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network rejects the Israeli regime’s claim that Israel is our “homeland.” We repudiate any right to self-determination in historic Palestine, exclusive or otherwise. We oppose other planks of the law, especially that the regime has a role in preserving our cultural heritage. From the earliest Zionist thinkers, Arthur Ruppin to Thedor Herzl onwards, powerful Zionists have shown contempt for Jewish heritage and culture, including in Eastern Europe. They disliked and disregarded the world of the Jews of Africa and Asia, folding a subordinate status for Mizrahi Jews into the early colonizing project. From Zionist pre-state and state ideology’s hatred for the poverty and book-learning of the shtetl to the erasure and selective exploitation of the histories and cultures of the Jews of Africa and Asia to its glorification of war and strength, and racist dismissal of what the Zionists saw as Ashkenazi Jewish feminized “weakness,” the entire Israeli project has been based on rejecting our multiple pasts and cultural heritages. The only heritage they assert is the memory of the Nazi Holocaust of European Jews. And in using it as a weapon against the Palestinian struggle, they have cheapened that memory, not protected it.

The state of Israel has always been an apartheid state. Its founding was based on denying and destroying Palestinian collective life on the land, while encouraging Jewish immigration and participation in a settler-colony, itself based on a classed racial hierarchy among Jews. The new law, in Adalah’s words, is “primarily anti-Palestinian, since it seeks to entrench the immediate implications of the Nakba: the denial of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people in its homeland [and] the denial of the Palestinian refugees’ Right of Return.” In claiming the land of historic Palestine for Jews, whom Israel claims to unify and represent, it denies that land to Palestinians. This relationship rests on an apartheid system. Palestinians who resist and lay claim to their homeland are turned at best into second-class citizens. At worst, they are dispossessed, subject to violence and imprisonment, and become “terrorists” for claiming their right to have rights.

Turning Palestinians into “terrorists” happens no matter what they do or do not do. It is Palestinian existence and resistance which is criminalized and punished. From the early days of organized political resistance to colonization, to the appearance of the PLO, to the strikes and collective actions that characterized the first Intifada, to political work in the Palestinian exile communities, to the murder of nearly 150 Palestinians and the maiming of 5000 in the Great March of Return – a massive campaign of popular resistance – and now, the murder of several Hamas fighters and Palestinian civilians on Friday July 20, there is no resistance—cultural or political—that is acceptable to the state of Israel.

IJAN notes that the latest escalation from Israel occurred in response to the popular militia exercising their right to defend themselves from the occupier—a right protected in international law. What is misleadingly named “Jewish self-determination” in Palestine rests on a violent denial of history, the past and the present. So, both the international media and Israeli officials painted Friday’s massive late-night attacks as a “response” to the Hamas killing of an Israel soldier. But such an event is only a “response” if one accepts the Israeli regime frame, which is to forget not only the Nakba but also the ongoing occupation, land grabs, brutal military assaults and imposed humanitarian crisis of the Gaza Strip.

Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman called the Israeli counter-insurgency operation “measured and responsible,” and stated that it was Hamas forcing Israel into a situation where it would have to carry out a “broad, painful military operation.” IJAN agrees: because Hamas and the Great March of Return, both parts of the Palestinian creative pushback to their oppression, are challenges to the current apartheid regime, Israel has no choice but to use massive colonial violence to defend the indefensible. There is no other way.

The “self-determination” of Jewish Israeli settlers in Palestine is only made possible by a violent denial of the Palestinian right to land and life. It has ever been thus: there is no nonviolent route to colonization. Yesterday’s martyrs and last week’s apartheid law are further evidence of Israel’s determination to carry out its project. But they are also evidence of the ongoing Palestinian resistance to that project. In this moment, as ever, we honor the Palestinian resistance in its struggle for rights, for liberation, and for return.

Jews are not one national group. We are part of the world. Rather than claiming our right to stolen Palestinian land, we join the world in empathy and support of the Palestinian people. We reject the language and practice of the Israeli state and affirm the self-determination of Palestinian people as they face this renewed challenge to their existence.

International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network
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67 Responses

  1. Talkback
    Talkback
    July 28, 2018, 7:35 am

    Great statement!

  2. Nathan
    Nathan
    July 28, 2018, 3:12 pm

    It’s always so ironic to read the grievances of the anti-Zionists. They get so carried away that they don’t even pay attention to the very meaning of their own words. Take for example the grievance that the Zionists ‘disliked and disregarded the world of the Jews of Africa and Asia folding a subordinate status for Mizrahi Jews into the early colonizing project’. So, how could such a grievance have been rectified? Well, obviously, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network maintains that Zionists should have liked and held in regard the world of the Jews of Africa and Asia, folding an equal status for Mizrahi Jews into the early colonizing project. Right? In short, the very essence of the grievance (irregardless of its being true or false) is acceptance of the “colonizing project”.

    It was particularly intriguing to read that “we repudiate any right to self-determination in historic Palestine, exclusive or otherwise…” One might get the impression that the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network was being asked for its approval of Jewish self-determination in Palestine. Perhaps, the readers might also be interested in hearing of my disapproval of the French Revolution.

    The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network wishes to “affirm the self-determination of Palestinian people”. Well, the right of self-determination is the right of a particular people to establish for itself its own independent state. Just as the repudiation of the Jewish claim for self-determination is a nonsense statement, so too is the affirmation of Palestinian self-determination a nonsense statement. If a group of people succeeds in establishing statehood, then that state has been established (and the approval or disapproval of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network is really unimportant). If a group of people fails in its effort to establish statehood, then there is no state (and the approval or disapproval of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network is still really unimportant). The UN General Assembly recognized Palestinian statehood in 2012, but the Palestinians continue to demand the establishment of their independent state. Apparently, the affirmation or the recognition of the right of self-determination by outsiders is a meaningless statement. The Palestinians will actually have to found their state in order to give content to someone else’s recognition. This means renewing the negotiations with Israel and reaching an agreement.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      July 28, 2018, 4:01 pm

      Nathan: “Well, the right of self-determination is the right of a particular people to establish for itself its own independent state.”

      Nope. It is the right of the people of a perticular country to establish there an independent state.

      Nathan: “The UN General Assembly recognized Palestinian statehood in 2012, but the Palestinians continue to demand the establishment of their independent state.”

      Nope. The Palestiniands continue to demand the independence of their state which is currently under occupation.

      Nathan: “This means renewing the negotiations with Israel and reaching an agreement.”

      Israel has never been interested in a souvereign Palestinian state and will never be. It’s just a farce and you know it.

    • annie
      annie
      July 28, 2018, 4:03 pm

      One might get the impression that the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network was being asked for its approval of Jewish self-determination in Palestine

      the only impression i’m getting is that israel, without asking or seeking the approval of world jewry, claims to represent all the jews in the world. in fact, didn’t they just pass a law also referencing the diaspora? under these circumstances it makes perfect sense for jews, in groups or otherwise, to refute this so called “right to self determination” in palestine.

      the readers might also be interested in hearing of my disapproval of the French Revolution.

      are you equating zionism with the french revolution? false equivalence, bad analogy.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 28, 2018, 4:32 pm

        Annie: “are you equating zionism with the french revolution? false equivalence, bad analogy.”

        I thought Nathan meant that he prefered fighting for supremacy and Apartheid over fighting for democracy and equality.

      • annie
        annie
        July 28, 2018, 5:43 pm

        talkback, had his comment not been a rejoinder to his fake “impression” that the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network “was being asked for its approval” (of Jewish self-determination in Palestine) a hypothesis only a hasbrat could come up with, i might have thought the same. but his segue was a set up, specifically to imply zionism was some moral liberation movement.

        i am having a deja vu. their arguments are on constant rotation.

    • JWalters
      JWalters
      July 28, 2018, 7:11 pm

      Sloppy logic wrapped in word acrobatics.

    • eljay
      eljay
      July 28, 2018, 9:58 pm

      || Nathan: … Just as the repudiation of the Jewish claim for self-determination is a nonsense statement, so too is the affirmation of Palestinian self-determination a nonsense statement. … ||

      The Palestinian claim for self-determination…
      – a Palestinian state of Palestine;
      – of and for all people in and up to n-generations removed from geographic Palestine;
      – established in geographic Palestine,
      …is entirely reasonable.

      The Jewish claim for self-determination…
      – a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel;
      – primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews (i.e., foreign nationals with tenuous to non-existent ties to geographic Palestine);
      – comprising as much as possible of geographic Palestine,
      …is worse than nonsense – it’s unjust and immoral.

      • Nathan
        Nathan
        July 29, 2018, 8:08 pm

        eljay – It could be that the Palestinian claim for self-determination is “entirely reasonable”, but that’s not the issue. Self-determination means that a particular people determines sovereignty for ITSELF. It could be that a people fails to establish its statehood, and therefore its entirely reasonable claim is unfulfilled. The affirmation of the right of self-determination is nonsense. One could recognize a state after it is founded, but it is meaningless to affirm (or repudiate) another people’s right to self-determination. The prefix “self-” is not about outsiders.

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 29, 2018, 10:19 pm

        || Nathan: eljay – It could be that the Palestinian claim for self-determination is “entirely reasonable” … ||

        It is entirely reasonable.

        || … Self-determination means that a particular people determines sovereignty for ITSELF. It could be that a people fails to establish its statehood, and therefore its entirely reasonable claim is unfulfilled. The affirmation of the right of self-determination is nonsense. One could recognize a state after it is founded, but it is meaningless to affirm (or repudiate) another people’s right to self-determination. The prefix “self-” is not about outsiders. ||

        You Zionists like to write mush. It doesn’t matter how much sovereignty a group of people determines for ITSELF. That particular exercise of “self-determination” does not entitle that group of people to a supremacist state.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 30, 2018, 12:40 am

        Nathan: “The affirmation of the right of self-determination is nonsense.”

        Spoken like a true colonialist who mistakes imposing Apartheid unto the people of a country by colonial settler means “self-determination” of the colonial’s “people”. Even the Afrikaaners didn’t come up with such pathetic idiocies which deny a fundemantal right that is enshrined in he UN charter.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 30, 2018, 12:05 pm

        ” Self-determination means that a particular people determines sovereignty for ITSELF. “

        Uh, no “Nathan”, it’s not like yelling “Olly-olly-oxen-free” in a kids game.

        The “statehood” only lasts as long as Zionism has enough people and can beg enough assistance to keep it going.

      • pjdude
        pjdude
        August 1, 2018, 9:18 pm

        @ nathan again no it doesn’t. repeating the lie doesn’t make it true. self determination refers to the people of a territory deciding their own politcal status. what self determination is not is a religious group deciding it wants a country and conquering one. Israel has nothing to do with self determination outside of denying the palestinians theirs.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 2, 2018, 9:59 pm

        @pjdude

        “repeating the lie doesn’t make it true. ”

        That won’t stop Nathan. We kept shooting down his old “Oslo accords/no right of return/end the conflict” line, but he just kept on plugging it. I expect we’ll see the “Jewish right of self determination” repeated ad nauseam as well.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      July 29, 2018, 12:29 am

      “(irregardless of its being true or false)”

      Make up your mind. Do you mean “regardless of its being true or false” or ” irrespective of its being true or false”?

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      July 29, 2018, 2:18 am

      Nathan: “…. so too is the affirmation of Palestinian self-determination a nonsense statement.”

      The natives of a country don’t have a right to their country or even parts of it, if this country is contested by Jewish settlers, right?

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        July 29, 2018, 9:04 am

        It’s not nonsense to question the rights Xs to something they possess just because they actually possess it with no more ado: we surely can’t eliminate the idea of ill-gotten gains so completely. It’s not nonsense to pursue or proclaim the rights of other Xs just because they are very powerfully opposed: we surely can’t admit the idea that might is right so radically. If we are to be wary of prejudice we should value the ideas of bystanders in the sense of people who have no direct self-interest, an obvious source of prejudice.
        It’s not absurd to say that the Zionist colonisation project was even worse than might appear from its element of contempt for Palestinians because it also expressed contempt for actual,Jewish life in Europe and even more in the Midfle East.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      July 31, 2018, 1:21 am

      “Well, the right of self-determination is the right of a particular people to establish for itself its own independent state. ”

      Where do you get this idea from? Are you misinterpreting “peoples” in the UN Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples?

      The right of self-determination is the right of the inhabitants of a territory to establish, or refrain form establishing, an independent state in that territory.

      It is not a right of ethnic, religious, commercial, or hobby groups whether they call themselves “a people” or not.

      This interpretation is the only one that makes any moral sense.

      Since you are a Zionist, and thus incapable of understanding morality, I will add that Hostage has argued that it is the only interpretation that makes legal sense as well.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 31, 2018, 8:26 am

        RoHa: “Since you are a Zionist, and thus incapable of understanding morality, …”

        This accusation is not fair. He very well knows what “morality” between Jews means.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 12:58 pm

        ” He very well knows what “morality” between Jews means.”

        Oh, the “morality” which doesn’t extend to Reform or secular Jews in Israel? Or to anti-Zionist Jews? That morality?

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 31, 2018, 1:55 pm

        You are just inventing different kind of Jews, Mooser. There is only one kind. The one that benefits the “Jewish and democratic state of Israel”.

  3. JWalters
    JWalters
    July 28, 2018, 5:48 pm

    My profound thanks to the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network for their blunt statement of values and reality. As a Jewish organization you have a special credibility in denying the false and inhumane claims of the Zionists. The human race needs to rid itself of ALL forms of oppression, no exceptions. The big picture on this reality is addressed with the clarity, feeling, and depth of personal experience by Israeli-born, Jewish therapist Avigail Abarbanel in
    “When you are oppressed, you are not allowed to become yourself– you must become a fighter”
    https://mondoweiss.net/2018/07/oppressed-allowed-yourself/

  4. klm90046
    klm90046
    July 28, 2018, 6:10 pm

    A refreshing article. A 17-year-old Haredi recently said to me, very generously, “Not all Arabs are bad.” I say, “Not all Jews are Zionists.” So don’t discount these enlightened ones. They will be with you when you launch your war of independence.

  5. jon s
    jon s
    July 29, 2018, 10:55 am

    So, according to this statement, Palestinians have the right to self-determination in their homeland, but Jews don’t. Sure.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      July 29, 2018, 11:28 am

      The natives of a country have a right to self determination and not foreign settlers whose immigration is enforced unto the native population by a colonial power.

      This has NOTHING to do with being Jewish or not. That’s your racist shtick.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 29, 2018, 11:42 am

      Israel is the Jews historiographic homeland!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2018, 11:57 am

        “Jon s”: You can forget about all that “Jewish homeland” stuff now. “Jewish” is no more than an administrative identity which entitles those determined to be “Jewish” by the “State of Israel” to privileges in Israel.

        Other than that, “Jewish” has no meaning any more. You guys have screwed yourselves good. But don’t worry “Jon s”, there’s not a reason in the world, is there why Israel can’t start importing Evangelicals, or people with good marksmanship and designating them as “Jewish”?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2018, 3:17 pm

        “…but Jews don’t”

        “Jon s” nobody is forcing Jews to repudiate their colonial interest in Palestine. They are doing it of their own accord.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 30, 2018, 1:28 am

        Mooser: “But don’t worry “Jon s”, there’s not a reason in the world, is there why Israel can’t start importing Evangelicals, or people with good marksmanship and designating them as “Jewish”?”

        How about defining “Jewish” the other way around:

        Someone is “Jewish” if s/he is entitled to privileges in Israel.

        Are you “Jewish”, Mooser?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 30, 2018, 12:12 pm

        “Are you “Jewish”, Mooser?”

        Well, I think I am, but I can’t count on Israel to think so, can I?

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 30, 2018, 1:07 pm

        @Mooser

        You just have to emphasize that you are interested in being privileged. If they are not convinced, tell them that you want to oppress Nonjews. That’s the kind of “Jewish” Israel is apparently looking for.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 31, 2018, 7:38 am

        Canaan | ˈkānən |
        the biblical name for the area of ancient Palestine west of the Jordan River, the Promised Land of the Israelites, who conquered and occupied it during the latter part of the 2nd millennium bc.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 12:19 pm

        “the Promised Land of the Israelites, who conquered and occupied it during the latter part of the 2nd millennium bc.”

        That’s cause we were always ready to play Baal.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 31, 2018, 2:24 pm

        Mooser: “Israel is the Jews historiographic homeland!”

        It’s their hypocritical homeland. Because they are implying that it is only theirs.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      July 29, 2018, 1:13 pm

      @jon s

      As TalkBack points out that right belongs to the peoples that lived there but just to clarify that the group in question included Jewish Palestinians. The right to self determination in Palestine does not extend to Jews born in other countries even if their ancestors lived there a couple of thousand years ago.

      So no, it does not exclude Jews in any way. It excludes people not of the region whether atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew, etc.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        July 30, 2018, 1:14 am

        “As TalkBack points out that right belongs to the peoples that lived there but just to clarify that the group in question included Jewish Palestinians.”

        Exactly. That’s why I wrote: “This has NOTHING to do with being Jewish or not.”.

        The people OF a country have the right to self determination and become under statehood a constitutive people. Every single person despite faith and heritage is a member of this nation.

        See for example the nationality law of Palestine in 1925:
        “Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

        It always has to do with being habitually resident in a territory. Compare it to Israel’s Apartheid version which was constructed to denationalize the Nonjews it expelled:

        “3. Nationality by residence in Israel

        (a)A person who, immediately before the establishment of the State, was a Palestinian citizen and who does not become an Israel national under section 2, shall become an Israel national with effect from the day of the establishment of the State if:

        (1)he was registered on the 4th Adar, 5712 (1st March 1952) as an inhabitant under the Registration of Inhabitants Ordinance, 5709-1949; and

        (2)he is an inhabitant of Israel on the day of the coming into force of this Law; and

        (3)he was in Israel, or in an area which became Israel territory after the establishment of the State, from the day of the establishment of the State to the day of the coming into force of this Law, or entered Israel legally during that period.”

        In other words. Everybody being habitually resident not when the state was created in 1948, but in 1952 after we expelled the majority of Nonjews.

        Racist fascists.

    • eljay
      eljay
      July 29, 2018, 2:42 pm

      || jon s: So, according to this statement, Palestinians have the right to self-determination in their homeland, but Jews don’t. Sure. ||

      The people of a region have a right to “self-determine” themselves a state of and for all people in and up to n-generations removed form that region.

      A Palestinian state fits that bill.

      A religion -supremacist “Jewish State” – regardless of where it’s established – does not.

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      August 1, 2018, 9:20 pm

      correct foriegn people dont have the right of self determination to a territory they aren’t native too.

  6. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    July 29, 2018, 2:06 pm

    @Jon S
    “So, according to this statement, Palestinians have the right to self-determination in their homeland, but Jews don’t. Sure.”

    Just to remind you Jon S the brown stuff has already well and truly hit the fan in ZioDisneyworld with the recent confirmation in the Nation State Law by the Zios that Zioland is legally an Apartheid state(aka colony). In their salivating slobbering haste to get the law passed they forgot about all those loyal most moral army serving Druze.
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-trouble-with-israels-jewish-nation-state-law/

    All the signs are that the Fascist thugs who are now running the show in Zioland can`t/won`t/couldn`t be arsed to try to get out of the bind that they have put themelves in. For example if they “incorporate” the non Jewish Muslimish Druzish numbering about 130000 as full and equal citizens what about the non Jewish Christianish (similar numbers). And then what about the 2 million yes 2 million non Jewish Muslimish? Given that the law was part of the Zios ongoing “Final Solution” to rid the Chosen Land of these pesky Untermenschen natives where do they go from here ? There is a lot to be said for Aryan on the side of caution.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 31, 2018, 8:53 pm

      Yep, they got rid of all the horrifying proclivities narrative in depth on Jewish Jeans, and dumped those photos too.

  7. Mooser
    Mooser
    July 30, 2018, 12:20 pm

    ” There is a lot to be said for Aryan on the side of caution.”

    Just ask the JGDC.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 31, 2018, 7:44 am

      Interesting web site, Mooser

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 12:06 pm

        “Interesting web site, Mooser”

        Isn’t it, though? Thanks for looking at it.

        Either the proponents of Jewish in-marriage are not dealing with the genetic realities of it, or the JGDC is determined to cause Jewish-Jewish couples a huge amount of destructive personal stress and worry.

        I’ll tell you one thing, that site gave the phrase “Jewish genes” an entirely new meaning I hadn’t before considered.

        (And what are the pictures supposed to show? Are those supposed to be healthy babies, the product of adequate carrier testing and good decisions, or are those supposed to be, well, an illustration of another possible result? If so, why? )

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 1:29 pm

        Gee, the term “blood libel” takes on several new ramifications, too. Not to mention “Laws of Family Purity”.

        I’m hoping “Marnie” and/or “Danaa” might look at the JGDC site and give me some perspective on it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 3:29 pm

        I’ll be damned. Somebody at JGDC reads Mondo? They went 404 for a bit, and just rolled out, just in the last few minutes, a new website, and got rid of those pictures.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 31, 2018, 8:54 pm

        Yep, they got rid of all the horrifying proclivities narrative in depth on Jewish Jeans, and dumped those photos too.

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 1, 2018, 3:20 am

        Mooser: “I’ll be damned. Somebody at JGDC reads Mondo? They went 404 for a bit, and just rolled out, just in the last few minutes, a new website, and got rid of those pictures.”

        They are slowly changing the website, because the real Israelites told them that Jews are actually Edomites. Meet your future superiors:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFl_v8dSBI

        ROFL.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 1, 2018, 5:12 pm

        “Yep, they got rid of all the horrifying proclivities narrative in depth on Jewish Jeans”

        For the most part, the same information is on the new web-site as the old.

        And it leaves me with the same question: does tikkum olam include sewing up ripped jeans?

  8. jon s
    jon s
    July 31, 2018, 7:02 am

    Jews in the Jewish historic homeland are not “invaders” . We are quite at home here.
    Besides, there are now around 6.2 million Jews here, over 3/4 of whom are native-born, including many second-, third-, fourth generation locally born. So that’s around 4.7 million Israeli Jews with the right to self-determination, even according to your definitions.

    As to being called a racist: I’m one of the commenters here who supports equal rights for all. Equality for all individuals, and for all nations.

    • eljay
      eljay
      July 31, 2018, 9:49 am

      || jon s: Jews in the Jewish historic homeland are not “invaders” . … ||

      Neither geographic Palestine nor the State of Israel is the “historic homeland” of people all over the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who have chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

      || … As to being called a racist: I’m one of the commenters here who supports equal rights for all. Equality for all individuals, and for all nations. ||

      You don’t advocate or support the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality because you – like all Zionist commenters here (and elsewhere) – are a Jewish / “Jewish State” supremacist.

      You are, however, on record advocating and supporting a Zionist “peace” that:
      – allows Israel to remain a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”;
      – allows Israel to keep as much as possible of what it has stolen;
      – absolves Israel of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR); and
      – absolves Israel of responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes.

      • jon s
        jon s
        August 1, 2018, 2:55 am

        eljay,
        Do you realize how absurd it is to claim that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland? I can understand the argument that the history should have no bearing on present-day politics, but it looks like you’re denying an obvious truth.
        And even if we use your oft-repeated definition that “Jewish” is a “religion-based identity” – well, one of the components of the religion is the connection to the homeland: in the texts, holidays, laws …So we’re back to the Jewish Homeland through your own definition.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 1, 2018, 8:16 am

        || jon s: eljay,
        Do you realize how absurd it is to claim that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland? … ||

        It’s not the least bit absurd to state that neither…
        – geographic Palestine, the historic homeland of non-Jewish and Jewish Palestinians; nor
        – geographic Israel, the historic homeland of non-Jewish and Jewish Israelis,
        …is the “historic homeland” of every person in the world – every citizen of every homeland all over the world – who has chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

        || … I can understand the argument that the history should have no bearing on present-day politics, but it looks like you’re denying an obvious truth. … ||

        I’m not denying any truths, “obvious” or otherwise, but I am countering your fantastical, Jewish supremacist (Zionist) claims.

        || … And even if we use your oft-repeated definition that “Jewish” is a “religion-based identity” … ||

        Which it is.

        || … – well, one of the components of the religion is the connection to the homeland: in the texts, holidays, laws …So we’re back to the Jewish Homeland through your own definition. ||

        There you go again with your fantastical claims. Nothing about the religion-based identity of Jewish – not even its abstract “connections” – makes geographic Palestine or geographic Israel the “historic homeland” of all people who choose to embrace that identity, any more than the religion-based identity of Roman Catholic – with all of its “connections” – makes the Vatican (or, for that matter, geographic Palestine) the “historic homeland” of all Roman Catholics.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      July 31, 2018, 11:44 am

      jon s: “Jews in the Jewish historic homeland are not “invaders”.

      Ottoman Jews who became citizens of Palestine and their descendants aren’t. The rest who entered Palestine under British or Zionist gun are, because they entered Palestine without the consent of its native population.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 31, 2018, 12:13 pm

      “Jews in the Jewish historic homeland are not “invaders” . We are quite at home here.”

      You bet, “Jon s”! The new “Jewish State for Jews” law shows that! Quite at home.

      • amigo
        amigo
        July 31, 2018, 3:22 pm

        “You bet, “Jon s”! The new “Jewish State for Jews” law shows that! Quite at home.” Mooser.

        And you bet Jon S sleeps far better than he used to and has replaced all the mirrors in his pad in The Historic Home of The Jewish People and now he has the Law on his side.

        No Need to hold unto that US passport. We Jews are finally home .

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 31, 2018, 12:34 pm

      “Besides, there are now around 6.2 million Jews here, over 3/4 of whom are native-born, including many second-, third-, fourth generation locally born.”

      And as the the Jewish generations are born in Israel, their genes get more and more Jewish!

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      July 31, 2018, 2:39 pm

      That Johny again:

      So that’s around 4.7 million Israeli Jews with the right to self-determination, even according to your definitions.

      So who decided that place of birth confers citizenship rights? That isn’t the case in most countries.

      And it sure ain’t so in your Zionist entity, where place of birth doesn’t count at all.

      While you guys expel end genocide the natives, you give citizenship to people from anywhere at all. By your own rules, none of the illegally imported Zionist invaders or their offspring are entitled to have a say re self-determination, while all Palestinians with Palestinian descent are.

      Never saw the open Zionist bunch here pull their foot out of their mouth.

    • lyn117
      lyn117
      July 31, 2018, 6:20 pm

      Jon S. – “I’m one of the commenters here who supports equal rights for all.”

      Point out to me one comment where you support the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Point out to me one comment where you think bullets killing protesters in Gaza worse balloons with flames that cause no harm. And btw, if you haven’t made any such comments, all your claimed aversion to ethnic cleansing rings empty, because Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing.

      As for Israel being the “Jewish historic homeland,” most of the Jewish heritage (as Jews) comes from people who converted to Judaism outside ancient Palestine – see e.g. https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/5/1/61/728117. Ancient Palestine may have had a Jewish majority at some period in history (or may not, a lot of pagans also inhabited the place concurrently). That is to say, it may be a historic homeland for historic Jews, but not most modern Jews, no matter what religious claims they make. Also, whichever 2nd, 3rd or 4rth generation back Jew who came to Palestine was an invader, and sorry, you inherit that invader status, as they came with full intent to take over from the indigenous people.

      Nor do your religious claims give you or anyone the right to take over the homes and property, expel or ban people not of the favored religion as Israel claims.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      August 1, 2018, 1:01 am

      Jon s says:

      Jews in the Jewish historic homeland are not “invaders” .

      How can a bunch of Europeans not be invaders in Palestine? It must work like this:

      (a) Some Jews lived in Palestine in the past and even up to the present. This gives all Jews, no matter where they were born, the right to live in Palestine.

      Jon s says:

      I’m one of the commenters here who supports equal rights for all. Equality for all individuals …

      Applying this idea of equal rights, we can then say:

      (b) Some Palestinians lived in Palestine in the past and even up to the present. This gives all Palestinians , no matter where they were born, the right to live in Palestine.

      So Jon’s principles give both Jews and Palestinians the right to live in Palestine. And they would (by Jon’s principles) have equal rights.

      Thus, Jon s must be a supporter of the One-State-with-equal-rights-for-all solution.

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      August 1, 2018, 9:24 pm

      no you are. you can tell from that whole war of conquest you did.

  9. jon s
    jon s
    July 31, 2018, 7:06 am

    Ossinev,
    Your use of the term “Untermenschen” in regard to the Palestinian people is highly offensive and racist.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      July 31, 2018, 11:20 am

      Johnny S,

      Your illegal presence on the territory occupied by racist intruders who officially treat all Palestinians as Untermenschen makes you a participant in crimes against humanity.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 31, 2018, 1:32 pm

        And “Jonny’s” absurdly hypocritical self-righteousness is also doing him a lot of good.

        Not to mention his absurd insistence in mixing up what Jews are repudiating of their own accord with what non-Jews are somehow forcing us to do.

    • Talkback
      Talkback
      July 31, 2018, 2:40 pm

      jon s:”Your use of the term “Untermenschen” in regard to the Palestinian people is highly offensive and racist.”

      Wow, jon s. Does it get more dishonest?

      Even now you find a way to distract from who’s really highly offensive and racist in regard to the Palestinian people and really thinks of them and really treats them like Untermenschen.

    • amigo
      amigo
      July 31, 2018, 3:14 pm

      “Your use of the term “Untermenschen” in regard to the Palestinian people is highly offensive and racist.”Jon S

      Says the supremacist land thief who squats on land stolen from some unfortunate innocent untermenschen who whose only sin was to be a non Jew.

      Now that is truly offensive.

      Sigh.

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