Ezra Klein reflects the growing consensus that Walt and Mearsheimer were right.
It may still be that you’re not supposed to agree with Walt and Mearsheimer, but so long as you don’t mention them, you can echo their arguments and buy into pieces of their analysis… [such as] impolitic-yet-obvious statements like some Jewish neoconservatives view the containment and even destruction of Israel’s adversaries as an important objective for American foreign policy. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with that perspective, nor even with the idea that zionists, like corn farmers, have a powerful political lobby, but you weren’t supposed to say so before. Walt and Mearsheimer may have lost the public argument, but they won in creating the debate.
Klein’s view is welcome but it also rationalizes political correctness. It is impolitic to say that Jewish neocons saw the destruction of Israel’s enemies as an important goal for the U.S. But it is obvious. If it is obvious, why haven’t more journals stated as much? The journalists are craven. It has taken J Street, and Scott McClellan’s book, and Jeffrey Goldberg’s tergiversation, and Jon Stewart’s description of AIPAC as “the elders of Zion,” and Joe Klein’s boldness to bring all this about. Why weren’t our journals telling us about the Israel agenda of the neocons five years ago? And why isn’t that agenda on the front pages now, when Iran is in the cross-hairs? And how large a factor here was a form of racism: that Walt and Mearsheimer are not Jews? Dana Milbank virtually calling them Nazis.
All this talk makes my hinder tired (as they say in Minnesota). It doesn’t become Americans to be so indirect, doesn’t become journalists. Though, yes, I feel vindicated. Nine months or so back I said that Walt and Mearsheimer’s book would one day have the status of The Silent Sea, The Jungle, and Unsafe at Any Speed. I thought it would take years. Seems like it’s taking months.
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- AIPAC should invite Walt and Mearsheimer to a debate at its spring policy conference
{ 29 comments }
I think its had barely incidental effect.
Any of their ideas that had merit on their own (which is what you quote as valid, the isolated), were articulated widely prior.
The unique thesis that they inferred was that AIPAC "CAUSED" the US to invade Iraq, which is a fallacy in any proportional analysis, and really from any reasonable angle.
And, sidebars to their thesis, DO resemble the America First thesis of Lindbergh and Father Caughlin, that sought to keep the US out of WW2 (as well as marginalize Jews' participation in American civil life on racial and ethnic basis).
The sidebars are "Jews control the media", "Jews control the financial markets", "Jews are insular and contemtuous to 'real Americans'".
Each incidentally true, but effectively and structurally UNTRUE.
Did Walt/Mearsheimer say those things directly? It depends on how charitably you wish to regard very similar statements. (Those that experience some threat by inference are less charitable. Those that desire threat are more charitable.)
No no no, Richard, Phil's changing the world! Elite, assimilated, self-hating, Jewishly illiterate, unemployed, sexually frustrated fuckheads everywhere who have never been to israel agree with him. Its Obama time–long hypocritical sacks of shit!
For "Silent Sea," read "Silent Spring."
Naw, let's call it Silent Sea. That way we can remind ourselves that Phil never knows what the fuck he's talking about!
Phil maybe a bit careless with details, but he gets it right in the main. Should Israel attack Iran the blowback in this country may well surprise. We all need to move beyond petty tribal identifications.
Richard Mitty's beating down of strawmen is something to expect in the comments, especially in topics as well covered as these.
Mitty: "The unique thesis that they inferred was that AIPAC "CAUSED" the US to invade Iraq, which is a fallacy"
The fallacy here, of course is the classic strawman. The Lobby is identified as "a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively works to move U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. It is not a single, unified movement with a central leadership, and it is certainly not a cabal or conspiracy that 'controls' U.S. foreign policy. it is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel's case within the U.S. and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will belefit the Jewish state. The various groups do not agree on every issue, although they share the desire to promote a special relationship between the U.S. and Israel (pp. 5).
Mitty: "Each incidentally true, but effectively and structurally UNTRUE."
I wonder how Mr. Mitty manages to validate and authenticate his claims here. Maybe he should use more caps-loc.
Charles Lindbergh gave anti-war speech prior to Pearl Harbor in which he argued that the two main forces trying to pressure the US into WWII were American Jews and the British. It is possible to argue that staying out of the war was a poor idea but it's just plain dishonest to suggested that organized Jewery and Winston Churchill weren't frantic to get us into the war.
To add to David Miller's post, I don't remember M&W claiming that the lobby (much less AIPAC) CAUSED the Iraq war. Only that it pushed hard for it, which is pretty uncontroversial for anyone who was alive during the run-up.
have a lobby but register it as representative of a foreign nation and cease the illusion.
Phil are you insinuating that the media has been muzzled?
say it aint so shane…witty will set you straight…dont you know that its the journalists fault for not calling a spade a spade …just like its the polilticials fault for not speaking up….never mind that they are wee slikit timrous beasties, but surely the lobby doesnt muzzle journalists into behaving like cowering unamerican wimps..and the politicos into turning a blind eye while the constitution they swear an oath to gets raped right before their frigin eyes.
if americans knew…which they dont.
I notice John McCain is running campaign ads in the Jerusalem Post (see the second page)–
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1214726181011&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Whether it's the tiny "Jewish vote", or the huge Jewish dollars and media support, he's definitely after something over there.
If Walt/Mearsheimer were saying "there is an Israeli lobby, a loose coalition of organizations that each care about Israel", they were saying NOTHING of import.
It was known, accepted, legal, real.
The only import is of distortion of US policy, of "CAUSE", and that is "hogwash".
Richard, you're not ashamed that your lobby was pushing to get America into a a war in Iraq, and now another one in Iran?
It's OK so long as it was working alongside the military-industrial complex?
P.S. No one has ever claimed the lobby was illegal. You really must get a copy of that book.
jim haygood,
you have crossed the line. way crossed.
peters
Peters, that was not Jim Haygood. It's another of them clones.
Peters,
That's not Jim Haygood posting. That's most likely our old friend Bill P., also known as the Pork Sword of Gideon. One of his many infantile pranks is adopting the names of other posters and posting drivel using the names. The rank odor of his giggling immaturity is all too plain on most of these posts, so take them worth a grain of salt.
David Miller,
You know his name is Witty, not Mitty, don't you? I was wondering if you deliberately changed him surname in protest of his constant mangling of Pat Buchanan's name. Got it Richard? B-u-c-h-a-n-a-n.
And Richard, regarding your "hogwash" I can only say "No matter how many times you wash a hog, it's still ends up smelling like pig shit." And no matter how many times you try to deny or deflect the fact that "a loose coalition of individuals and organizations" DID and DOES "actively work to move U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction", including making war on countries that pose NO THREAT to the USA, it always ends up smelling like abovementioned farmyard fecal matter.
Go Phil go. You're really pressing all the right buttons now!!!! You've got Richard in a veritable tizzy. A hissy fit!!!! No wonder nobody is reading the MSM any more.
PM
Hell, I thought that was just Jim mocking the kneejerk zicons.
Its amazing what scaredy cats my fellow americans on this blog are! The blowback from Israel attacking Iran?!?! We should call this mondopussy!
Paul, I do not believe the cloning is from Pearlman. I have reasons to think so. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I would make a bet I would say there is greater probability of sword not being Pearlman than Pearlman being the cloner.
And the Mitty thing is interesting isn't it? It goes like this:
The Ziogolem (a wittyesque poem)
Take Alterman's heart
From jolly old Walter Mitty
And the remaining dull part
Would be ziogolem Witty
Maybe I'm wrong in that too, but that's my bet.
Anonymous,
You may be right about the most recent post, but in the past the Sword has demonstrated the peculiar habit of replacing the word "as" with "has", similar to – you guessed it – our friend Bill P., whose posts on both Richard Silverstein's blog and Realistic Dove are replete with the same oddity. In addition, both the Sword and Bill P. like to refer to Hamas and Hezzbollah as "jolly lads" or something similar. Add to that the fact that both Sword and Bill P. would like to "dig up (Rachel Corrie/innocent Palestinian victims of IOF force) and kill them again", and you start to wonder.
Nice poem, by the way. You should, however, rewrite it as follows.
Take Alterman's start
From the heart of Walter Mitty
And the remaining dull part
Would be ziogolem Witty
PM
its funny how much american jews suck up to zionism because they believe that its good for the jews, but what they fail to appreciate is that zionist only care about the land and the settlers and when push comes to shove they will catapult them also like they did the european jews….history is replete with these facts.
http://jewsagainstzionism.com/
Shares
Shares’s Diary, Nov. 18, ’39, with regard to permits of some 2,900 immigrants who already received certificates but it was still necessary to meet with Malcolm McDonald, Minister of ?. Ben Gurion determined that he was a dangerous enemy and ordered to stop meetings with him. Shares tried to convince him that Jews must be saved. He answered: “Our future is more important than the rescue of 2,900 Jews.” He was prepared to give them up.
Shares: “I do not relate to the contradiction between our national future and the immigration of thousands of Jews… The national issue is doubtful while the rescue of thousands of Jews is certain.”
The historian Yigal Ilam quotes Shares’s words in 1935: “The fate of Zionism is at times to be cruel to Jews in exile, i.e. when the building of the land necessitates it.”
And Yigal Ilam summarizes: “It’s time to state matters in a straightforward and open manner: Zionism worked very little for the rescue of Jews. Not because it couldn’t have done more, but because first and foremost it was absorbed with the Zionist activities.”
Thanks Paul,
Agreed on everything, but when mondoweiss was still in the observer I didn't find evidence of Pearlman participating in any unsigned trolling. He is (or was) a guy bent on placing his name under his oppinions and honestly he was indeed interesting then.
Another characteristic linking sword to Pearlman is the odious towards Klaus Bloemker.
But I bet he is not the impersonator, then again who cares? Even when doing his best the impersonator still kisses the soles of that greatest among the greatest zionists, the Apolo-geist, the one and only PAZ-JEW.
Did Walt/Mearsheimer say those things directly? It depends on how charitably you wish to regard very similar statements.
Absolutely correct, Richard. And really, that begs the question: how charitably SHOULD we regard them?
Although the manufacturers of American Public Opinion® have organized under a 501(c)(3) charitable shell, fostering national religious competition and cruelty to animals, let us not confuse this tax-exempt status with any actual notion of charitable obligation.
ESPECIALLY when it comes to the treatment of dangerous, racist, radical, inhumanitarian anti-zionist strands of thought.
Phil refuses to see that particular academic work for what it is: HATE SPEECH.
If I am not mistaken, Messrs. Walt and Mearsheimer were making pleas for the ETHNIC CLEANSING of Judea and Samaria.
(Not only that, but when I had to burn the copy of their book I got from the library, I could have SWORN that I saw a burning Israeli-American flag on the cover. Draw your own conclusions.)
Is there no one here human and sympathetic enough toward the fates of TENS of THOUSANDS of innocent and patriotic Jewish pirata, not to mention the millions whose continuing heroic suburbanization of the desert dearly depends on Judean water, to CARE about THIS?
Phil, your audience is not only too charitable toward sentiments of vengeful justice bordering on anti-Semitism, but it also seems to lack and any all respect for dishonest mystical rationalizations for colonial brutality.
Is this really a reflection of your soul?
My soul is an amalgam of the deep and ancient wellsprings of humanism that are contained in Judaism and other religious thought.
This tradition affirms that Zionism is a GOOD, and my mind is beautifully clean and at peace with it.
Meanwhile you seem unrooted, Phil, like a river of unpleasant humanity has burst your spiritual levees and taken you clear off course.
You might say you are headed up shit creek.
What is your paddle? That is, what DO you support?
And if not OUR mystical 19th century faux-eastern, faux-charitable, faux-humanitarian bullshit, well then whose?
These guys'??? http://tinyurl.com/5oscwt
Yaaay! PAZ is back!
the Apolo-geist, the one and only PAZ-JEW.
Though it really ought to be said, I was little-punk-in-residence at the Pearlman School of Yiddish and Cheap Horribly Offensive Schtick (PSYCHOS Institute) for nearly 6 years.
I credit those years with the formation and near-total realization of my complete inner-asshole.
Plus now my Yiddish is really fuckin' voyl!
PSYCHOS Institute is offering free mentorships on several websites these days; just look for the Gidget the Midget decal and a bunch of feces flying everywhere, and jump right in.
See, Paul, reading those venerable words of wisdom from the real deal… after the regular defibrilation you return from the dead and you just know you were born to ride a bulldozer! All you care about is bulldozers being properly driven, in the right, acceptable tracks, over the right acceptable heads. You just know who is wrong an who is your tribe.
Such is the power of the illuminated presence of the PAZ-JEW… Now I am born again to show them lesser people the one game in town, the three shells game: the j-street cultural shell, the aipac religious shell and the rich sponsors supremacist shell, the rest is illusion, specially our former conscience. Zionism is liberation and as such shall be the creed of men born to live in the land of the free…
Damn it! I always fall from the tree in this part of the dream and remind monkey me lives in the far nothingness of the third world and that pesky voice inside my head keeps repeating that worn old screed: "B'doze not others when you would not have them b'doze you."
Should I sign that check would'em airpackers, sorry aipac-ers, turn me from a very hungry monkeypillar unto a witty b'dozerfly again?
Scott McClellan Questioned about Neocon Push for Iraq War
http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/06/scott-mcclellan-questioned-about-neocon.html
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http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.BLOGSPOT.COM
israel is the font of all evil in the modern world and we all know it.
religion is bunk – for the weak and the stupid and the jews who profess to be "god's chosen" know it is crap and merely use it as a tactic to oppress and be cruel to others.
israel is doomed to failure and we all know it … it's just a matter of time and nary a tear will be shed for those serial mass-murderers
Zionism is liberation
And hence, the converse.
To be TRULY free, we all must throw rocks at Palestinian schoolgirls. We all must develop secret nuclear weapons and threaten our neighbors with them.
All you anti-zionists are prisoners of your own design!
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