Interesting how the leftwing blogosphere, which used to be a little chary about Israel and the neocons, has gotten religion. I have! Now it's everywhere. Here's Paul Craig Roberts on Counterpunch, describing the Georgia effrontery as a motion of neoconservative Hatikvah unipolarism, and making me feel naive. You know that feeling,when you feel naive and don't want to turn into an angry cynic, but don't want to be a boob either? Dont know what to think? Still want to have good faith, in duty honor country? Roberts:
American media, aka, the Ministry of Lies and Deceit, again
accommodated the criminal Bush Regime and proclaimed “Russian invasion”
to cover up the ethnic cleansing of Russians in South Ossetia by the
Georgian military assault.
Only
this time, the rest of the world didn’t buy it…. No one outside America any
longer believes the US media or the US government.
The
rest of the world reported the facts–an assault on Russian civilians
by American and Israeli trained and equipped Georgian troops….
Russia
is being taught by the neocons that freeing the constituent parts of
its empire has not resulted in their independence but in their
absorption into the American Empire.
Unless
enough Americans can overcome their brainwashed state and the rigged
Diebold voting machines, turn out the imbecilic Republicans and hold
the neoconservatives accountable for their crimes against humanity, a
crazed neocon US government will provoke nuclear war with Russia.
The neoconservatives represent the greatest danger ever faced by the United States and the world. Humanity has no greater enemy.
Then there is always the other possibility. That the Russian offensive took months to prepare. That Putin is looking to take back the former republics and reassert influence over eastern Europe. That he is not the hero that the daily kos, mondoweiss, and the huffington post seems to think. That this is all part of what used to be called the "great game". That the left wing has been anti-Israel for a couple of generations. And I defy you to find a single day on counterpunch that doesn't have an ant-Israel article.
I know you guys think that everything is a neocon ( Jewish plot ) but at least entertain the possibility that the Russians are not the white hats here.
There are no white hats here. You'd never know it though, from the mouth of our major media, and the mouth of Bush, McCain, and Obama. Not a good sign.
" That the left wing has been anti-Israel for a couple of generations. And I defy you to find a single day on counterpunch that doesn't have an ant-Israel[sic] article."
You are going to have trouble parsing this in a conflated "Israel" category and a facile "left/right" US dichotomy. In this variant of a neocon inspired talking point, The Israeli position is assumed to be, by default, the Israeli right, and the divergence of the recent US conservative party from the Israeli right is to be ignored.
US conservative allegiances with the Israeli right in this talking point are often begun with Reagan, a man who ended up purging neoconservatives from the White House. In 1992, when G H.W. Bush was fighting against loan guarantees for Israeli settlements, G.H.W. Bush found himself pitted against AIPAC and Israeli officials.
Of course, using Israel as some sort of conflation isn't fair. Yitzhak Rabin sharply criticized AIPAC for wrongly steering Israel into a confrontation with G.H.W. Bush and also had sharp criticisms for Likud and American Jewish organizations. AIPAC wasn't overly thrilled with this move and people like David Ifshin, general counsel to AIPAC actively campaigned for Clinton. In another turn, Clinton was repeatedly criticized later in his tenure as president for his divergent positions from the Israeli right.
Moving forward, George Bush (the younger) could be characterized as a US president closest to the Israeli right is now, currently under fire from neoconservatives and Israel for diplomatic moves to Iran. (-reminiscent of the state dept/neocon fight for a Mid East plan in 2002 – only this time State won out).
Even the Israeli right is under its own deep division and splits. The settlers that Bush (the elder) fought against funding are causing deep problems for Kadima at the moment, and they are very politically organized. Identifying these splits can continue at great length…
Instead of using such terms as a conflated Israel category and facile left/right splits as a club, it might be useful to point out that even with a president as friendly to the Israeli right as George Bush, that ultimately he too has been typified as "anti-Israeli" at times such as in 2001-2002, with his fight against Sharon on the separation wall, settlers in the occupied territories, and now on Iran.
You know Keating its interesting how you let your anti-semitism dominate everything. If you are really a vietnam veteran then you know that that the Russians allied with the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong. And before that with the North Koreans. And if they hadn't been attacked in 1941 would have been very comfortable with a Hitler run Europe. Come to think of it so would you. But I digress. That evidently doesn't matter to you. If Georgia and Israel have a relationship then of course that's the evil side by virtue of it involving the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The Russians, who aided the people trying to kill you and your friends. Well they are OK now. Do I have that right?
You don't even know the status of the two semi-autonomous regions in questions.
How the fuck, Phil, can you state or even repeat an opinion on it.
That is called knee-jerk.
Not good clothing for you.
Well, Richard, since you have concluded Phil doesn't know the status of the two semi-autonomous regions, you infer that you do–what is it? Help us out here. We'd like some details covering the years 1990-1992 for starters. BTW, where exactly do you disagree with Mr. Roberts's article? Agree with anything?
SOG, I don't know what my DD-214 holding has to do with your questions. If you don't hold one, what does that have to do with your responses? Would Americans resent such interference? Occupation? Would they opt for national liberty or neo-colonialism?
The average Korean and Vietnamese person were victims of
respectively Japanese and French colonialism. As in all colonies of foreign powers, there was/is always a small native population (essentially traitors to the good of the main) that benefits from playing footsy with the colonial power. (Sort of like the non-racist Africans who sold other tribes to the slave traders for riches.) The struggle for economic dominance continued unabated, now spearheaded by the two big emergent winners, Russia and the USA, and the cold war was on in full, each looking at the hard economic dominos–the actual soft flesh behind them essentially not relevant. Ideology was tagged along, Communism versus Capitalism, more softly still, socialism versus "free" market. Imagine if, during the American Civil War,
a foreign power or two drew a line across the then USA land and jumped into the fray on one side or the other, first sending advisors, then troops–you know the routine…
The Stalin-Hitler pact was never viewed as anything but land grab now, more later–by either party.
I don't like the manipulation and exploitation of the common man, no matter how its dressed up. Both ideologies depend on frying up the frog slowly whenever actually practiced.
The common American is being fried up slowly in the terror pan.
Dominos falling in Asia or in the Middle East, or along the Russian skirt. Then, now. The ruling elites are all alike. That's why I voted for, and supported Ron Paul.
Unipolar hubris is correct!Maybe, just maybe, this time was a step too far. France Germany Italy, maybe UK are not behind the US. Maybe the penny has dropped, the realization that fighting is not working. That the US debt is now obscene without a way out, is troublesome and unanswered. If the neocons have lost support amongst themselves or their intellectual supporters, we can hold out hope. There must be some big losers from this escapade.
Roberts's policy conclusions are not that different from mine, but he's usually overwrought and prone to see conspiracies where Ockham's Razor tells us no conspiracy theory is necessary.
We are all terminally niave! If any of us new the half of it ….. We wouldn't believe it! The reality is cold very very cold!
Grumpy Old Man, please spell out the simple analysis you infer.
I am sure everyone posting on this blog, or perhaps even those lurking only, realize more than conceptually that every good salesman convinces him or herself first–at least for the time it takes to close the sale. If they have to sell a different product tomorrow, they will hype the new one they are given, and ignore the old one as much as they can–as to its salient qualities.
In the end its not even about oil, gas, desperate national physical needs–it's about trying to penetrate de jure or de facto classified information in the interest of an informed citizenship.
Otherwise, well, you know…
@Charles Maybe too much inuendo or cryptic …. Classified info, would be secret clauses and back handers, and who is involved, I guess … The BP run BTC pipeline is the major focus to my mind, Yet the UK seems quite conciliatory to Russia, strange…. Otherwise, well, you know… Sounds very threatening. Maybe you could be clearer
Then there is always the other possibility. That the Russian offensive took months to prepare. That Putin is looking to take back the former republics and reassert influence over eastern Europe.
You couldn't be more wrong, SOG. Read YnetNews, J Post.
"War in Georgia: The Israeli connection"
For past seven years, Israeli companies have been helping Gerogian [sic] army to preparer [sic] for war against Russia through arms deals, training of infantry units and security advice
link to ynetnews.com
Google for the rest.
I have a post providing ample reasons for wishing to provoke Russia into a war. Of course that plan does not seem to have worked, just like all the other plans. link to morris108.wordpress.com
RE: "The BP run BTC pipeline is the major focus to my mind"
That does explain a lot, along with the arms industry at full
tilt. Of course, Israel is there full tilt, in Georgia. Temporarily,
they are trying to hide. This does not clean the USA neocons, who are there up their hilt. Chaney is somebody Americans should really look at.
"The BP run BTC pipeline is the major focus to my mind"This is the only valuable item, the only thing to fight over, and just 2 weeks ago, the promise of it being filled with Kazakh oil disappeared. And it disappeared into Russia's hands. Within a week the pipeline was blown up, and the Georgian offensive started. We need the classified info, well maybe not, otherwise …..
If the shoe fits, wear it, hasbarites
de facto classified information in the interest of an informed citizenship. …… The intelligence agencies of Turkey, Iran, Israel, Russia etc. All know who is involved, and who did what, I suspect some Neocons got caught with a two bit cheap trick, they are so used to fooling the public, but this was all overstepping the mark, and they got caught. And we the public know nothing. ….But Rice and Sarkozy seem to have given the Russians the right to keep troops in Georgia. ….If the shoe fits wear it, that must mean this is all credible?
Charles,
I have limited knowledge of the history or status of the "break-away" regions.
From what I do know, Israel's involvement is NOT the story.
The story is of multi-lateral conflict between Muslim majority semi-autonomous regions, that both Georgia and Russia desire to control. That Russia is the BIG FISH in the region, and is willing to over-respond in Georgia to the extent of occupying most of Georgia.
Russia has more prominent equivalent of neo (and paleo, real paleo – czarist)-conservatives that actively encourage militarism as a primary social institution and application than the US.
"There are no white hats here. You'd never know it though, from the mouth of our major media, and the mouth of Bush, McCain, and Obama. Not a good sign."
The only relevant point in the whole discussion.
Well yes, Russia is not as subtle as the USA; it has less experience with how to get your way in a one vote per eligible
citizen arena dominated by a plutocratic tradition. But the USA's neocons are more than a match for Russia's. Or, at least they've been so up until this Georgia incident.
Been there, worked there, spend 2 entire years of army service there, have friends on all sides of conflict.
It was inevitable.
Georgians (the actual ones, of the Kartveli language group) are very much like Israelis in their belief of being above others. But hiding behind the Russians for more than 400 years they lack both military and diplomatic traditions.
You are much better off having fun, drinking and singing with Georgians, but always wait for couple of Ossetians or Abkhaz to join you, if you get into a serious brawl. There people are like rocks.
I pity my Georgian friends and the destiny of Georgia (I expect Adjaria and even Megrelia, which is "lower Kartveli tribe" to start feeling alien to Georgia).
Georgians who are wonderful people with unique culture and national identity must also start paying attention to their rabid racist attitudes.
And I wholeheartedly congratulate Ossetians (Alans) and Abkhaz with their chance to build their own countries.
And finally, I was stunned by the obviousness, lopsidedness and political prostitution of main media networks.
MSNBC was the only one who attempted to find out the facts. Watching these networks one has no idea about Saakashvili shelling the civilian city of Tzkhinvali from Katyusha-like "Grad" rocket systems. Not a word about Russian attempt, blocked bu USA, to have an emergency session of UN Security Counsel to stop Georgian attack. And only after it was blocked, 16 hours after the beginning of the Georgian assault, the Russian Army started to move.
This conflict showed that freedom of the press became just a myth in recent years.
What a fucking shame.
Alex Chaihorsky
Reno, Nevada.