Ralph Seliger has responded to my note of yesterday. I’m going to try to do a roundup later of other comments he and Steve F. have made, especially around the Sternhell attack in Israel, which is truly a bellwether event that disturbs me and Seliger. Readers ask why I’m privileging Ralph Seliger on this blog. A few reasons: he’s been working on this stuff a long time, from the left; he’s part of a community I’m alienated from, Jewish organizational life, and so I’m going to keep up that dialogue for my own sake if not for others. I can’t say that I’ve been convinced of anything, and I won’t do this forever, but I guess I’m saying it’s important for me, might help me learn how to talk to my mom about this stuff. And it’s Rosh Hashanah. OK, here’s Seliger:
Phil, you are an example of the diversity of voices among American Jews. But you and Tony Judt, as another example, are in the minority because you are so shrill and strident in your point of view. Where you are so wrong is to place those of us who favor the existence and well-being of Israel all in this nasty category you call “the lobby” or characterize as “Zionist.”
Phil, you are an example of the diversity of voices among American Jews. But you and Tony Judt, as another example, are in the minority because you are so shrill and strident in your point of view. Where you are so wrong is to place those of us who favor the existence and well-being of Israel all in this nasty category you call “the lobby” or characterize as “Zionist.”
I don’t know about Steve [yes Ralph he considers himself a Zionist], but I happen to be a card-carrying
Zionist as an advocate for Meretz USA, an organization that is a
constituent of the World Zionist Organization and that has sent elected
representatives to the World Zionist Congress every four
years, including myself. We are very much at the left-edge of a
spectrum of parties and organizations involved in the Zionist movement.
In fact, we were shut out of the Conference of Presidents of Major
American Jewish Organizations because we are considered too far left.
Most American Jews are not card-carrying Zionists but do care
about the security and well-being of the State of Israel. This is a
natural ethnic and religious affinity and sense of kinship. In my case,
about half of my kin actually are Israelis. I am sure that essentially
the same connections and concerns motivate Americans of Arab,
Palestinian or Muslim background, but move most of them to opposite
opinions and loyalties in the Middle East. American Greeks, Armenians
and others are similarly linked to their spiritual and blood kin
overseas. In past centuries, Americans of English, Irish and German
ancestry differed in their sympathies and concerns for US foreign
policy. My point is that ethnic diversity and all this implies for
people to freely act to “lobby” or influence their government is as
American as apple pie.
But Phil, you are taking a dark turn when you now look at
prominent institutions in American society that are largely supported
by charitable gifts and sniff at Jewish-sounding names on buildings and
the like. Are you totally losing it? What exactly are you saying? Do
you want the anti-Israel lobby, of which you are a
part – following your logic in classifying me as part of the
pro-Israel lobby– to now become an anti-Jewish lobby?
And what exactly does it say about how you feel about Arabs and
Palestinians when you declare that you don’t care if it’s one state or
two: “All I want is self-determination for … Palestinians, or our
buildings will get blown up”?
Weiss again. A couple quick responses, Ralph: My problem is with identity politics. I don’t think it’s helping, I want to move past it. You dignify it, but I don’t think it’s the answer. Had enough of it. Also, I really think the Israel lobby has had inordinate power. Thanks for your work on the left, but the body of the lobby has supported the occupation forever. I think the occupation has evil effects. Period. My point re one-state/two-state is that as an American I want peoples to have political rights, and yes human rights too. The Pal’ns have had none for 60 years. That’s My American Interest, get that taken care of, 60 years after the U.N. made promises that it and the Israelis and everyone else broke.
As to the sociological point I make about Jewish names on buildings, don’t be naive, Ralph. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you want to say it’s a canard, say so and I will laugh at you. That specific comment came out of the following context: that a person I met who works at the Kennedy School said that Steve Walt was naive because he had failed to notice that the names on the buildings at Harvard are Jewish. New buildings. This is a cold fact of life, good or bad, and I think it’s fine, except for the foreign policy effect (and yes, some Jewish cultural elitism that I wish we could get over). I have noticed the same thing at Columbia, Lerner and Kraft, and who is Bollinger dependent upon to deliver his dream campus above 125th Street? This is simply a fact of our political life, that Jews are the richest segment of our society by religion and are playing a huge role in political campaigns. If you want me to ignore it because Nazis said the same thing, you can simply forget about it. I’m a journalist, I’m old, I’ve been in this business a long time. I am, therefore, interested at this point in life by what’s true and new and important, and this satisfies all three. Happy new year!
Weiss again. A couple quick responses, Ralph: My problem is with identity politics. I don’t think it’s helping, I want to move past it. You dignify it, but I don’t think it’s the answer. Had enough of it. Also, I really think the Israel lobby has had inordinate power. Thanks for your work on the left, but the body of the lobby has supported the occupation forever. I think the occupation has evil effects. Period. My point re one-state/two-state is that as an American I want peoples to have political rights, and yes human rights too. The Pal’ns have had none for 60 years. That’s My American Interest, get that taken care of, 60 years after the U.N. made promises that it and the Israelis and everyone else broke.
As to the sociological point I make about Jewish names on buildings, don’t be naive, Ralph. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you want to say it’s a canard, say so and I will laugh at you. That specific comment came out of the following context: that a person I met who works at the Kennedy School said that Steve Walt was naive because he had failed to notice that the names on the buildings at Harvard are Jewish. New buildings. This is a cold fact of life, good or bad, and I think it’s fine, except for the foreign policy effect (and yes, some Jewish cultural elitism that I wish we could get over). I have noticed the same thing at Columbia, Lerner and Kraft, and who is Bollinger dependent upon to deliver his dream campus above 125th Street? This is simply a fact of our political life, that Jews are the richest segment of our society by religion and are playing a huge role in political campaigns. If you want me to ignore it because Nazis said the same thing, you can simply forget about it. I’m a journalist, I’m old, I’ve been in this business a long time. I am, therefore, interested at this point in life by what’s true and new and important, and this satisfies all three. Happy new year!
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Weiss wrote: "My problem is with identity politics. I don't think it's helping, I want to move past it…I'm a journalist, I'm old, I've been in this business a long time. I am, therefore, interested at this point in life by what's true and new and important, and this satisfies all three"
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This attitude is what puts guys like Weiss on the historical vanguard and Zionists like Seliger — be they Left, Right or in between — in the rear view mirror of history. For Zionists, tribal loyalties, in the end, trump all, whereas for post-tribalists, each issue or policy is judged on its merits, not by the number of co-tribalists lined up behind it.
Seliger and other Left-Zionists pretend to subscribe to post-tribalism on all issues but the one that matters to them the most — Zionism — which in turn rightly makes all of their other post-tribalist "stands" suspect. Anyone who will betray a cause once will do it time and again whenever things get tight. Jews right now are being put through an historical stress test, and only a handful on the vanguard like Weiss and Martillo or passing muster. The rest are reverting to form.
An answer to Zionist influence in American politics:
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad – A true alternative to McBama!
Seliger complains that we complain about the Israel Lobby and then praises it with "My point is that ethnic diversity and all this implies for people to freely act to "lobby" or influence their government is as American as apple pie."
The problem is that your lobby was spectacularly successful. You have gotten us into two ME wars on your behalf. First Lebanon in 1982 and now Iraq. Those wars were not one bit in US national interests but the Israelis believed they were in hers. And her agents in this country held sway.
Now, because of the Israel Lobby's tremendous success, then that makes it the enemy of every patriotic American. This really is what it comes down to. We do not want you to destroy our country.
Seliger is right. Phil is wrong.
Seliger is right that Phil has alienated more than he's motivated.
"Phil has alienated more than he's motivated".
Let me get this extraordinary statement straight:
According to above, a generic Jew, after reading Phil's blog, and after finding out the countless examples of abuses of Palestinian human rights by Israelis, will not feel motivated to do the right thing, and nudge its community in direction of basic tenets of western civilisation BUT, instead, will feel alienated, and presumably will do exactly opposite and rut for Israeli government to show those dirty Arabs once and for all that staying in Judea and Samaria is really not an option, and Gazan's really don't need more than, say, 1000 calories a day, if that.
??????????????????
You seem accord less humanitarian attributes to Jews than most of us, "anti-semites", commenting on this blog.
Phil's willingness to savage individuals adamently working for peace is what alienates.
He knows it. You know it.
Phil,
This is a good post, and your response to Mr. Seliger is accurate and compelling.
I don't understand why you feel a need to apologize to gentile readers like myself for wishing Mr. Seliger a Happy Jewish New Year. Also, I don't think that Christians who celebrate Christmas or Muslims who celebrate Ramadan should feel any need to apologize to non-believers for offering good wishes to their co-religionists on these holidays.
PM
I agree with Richy. Phil has alienated those on the Jewish left which has a good track record of fighting for civil rights over the decades. He views that just because they support Israel, they are incapable for fighting for civil rights in Israel like being Zionist is some form of "original sin". In the olden days, a person like Philip would have believed that they (Zionists) had to accept Jesus in order to redeem themselves. Now Phil wants the Jewish community/individuals to condemn the existence of Israel like it was a sin.
Since Phil views Israel as an original sin, I have an analogy for him that I read in the book "Jewish Literacy":
A woman named Eve marries a man named Adam. Adam's father is the CEO of large corporation. He gives his son a job as a vice president but since he's so inexperienced he has no responsibilities. He brings home a big check every week but does nothing with it. Eve soon realizes that she's married not to a man, but to a child. In order for her to make him a man, she force him to quit his job, say goodbye to his father, and move to another city.
If they support Israel they are savages. It is as simple as that. Off to hell with them.
"I agree with Richy. Phil has alienated those on the Jewish left which has a good track record of fighting for civil rights over the decades."
Yes, the progressive Jews fight civil rights in USA, in Europe, in Africa, in… well, everywhere.
Except Israel.
I have a wonderful article from the Guardian interviewing a Jew who is very similar to Phil.
Raised in a liberal Jewish household, raised to protest inequality and injustice, both parents very active in the American civil rights movement…
And then ostracized when he dared, in his little boy squeeky voice, to compare the situation in the American south with what was going on in Israel.
Simply destroyed, by teachers, students and, most importantly, by his very own parents who taught him the meaning of hipocrisy.
Damn, I can't find it – it's in one of my past articles.
The reason Phil hits a nerve with his landsmen is because the regular Joe American is beginning to recognize that the inhumane treatment of Palestinians has an affect on our lives here in the USA. Hence Phil's quote:
"All I want is self-determination for … Palestinians, or our buildings will get blown up."
American made F16's and Caterpillar bull dozers kill Palestinians almost daily. The Arabs recognize this and plot to kill our innocents.
American Jews pushed for integration and now push for amnesty for illegal immigrants. Maybe for the greater good of our country, or maybe for the destruction of WASP political supremacy or the strangling of ethnic Catholic ascendancy in the East and Midwest of America.
However, American Jews support the Israeli brutality of Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories, treatment far more brutal than the worst Bull Connor or George Wallace could dream of.
Why the double standard?
Thou shall not have a Christmas manger in the public square.
Thou shall give Israel over 3 billion to starve and kill Arabs in Gaza.
Now quit talkin' 'bout The Lobby.
Those Americans of ethnic English, Irish, and German ancestry still compose the largest segment of the American population, but not for long thanks to the 1965 Immigration Act, heavily pushed by Jewish Americans as the legislative history shows. Our open borders
and that Act will make whites a minority from sea to shining sea, not just in key cities and a few states–according to the latest Census projections, no later that 2040. Since everybody but whites
play identity politics, perhaps, for example, the Irish Americans should start banding together to attack the Immigration Act which has clearly instituted prejudice against them, and has done so for many years?
If you can't beat them in their identity politics, you should join them? Or you will get swallowed up by being race and ethnicity-blind (PC pat on the back) while others are clearly not, and their power and/or numbers are growing by the day.
Michael, does "Adam", upon his enlightenment of "becoming a man" through his journey in "another city", egregiously commit crimes that he feels necessary for him to "become a man" who was completely independent from his previous life as the son of a CEO?
Jews who support Israel's every step, even where it impinges on Palestinian livelihood, because they are Jewish and have identity connections are not savages. But they do more harm than good. Where's the objectivity here? Empathy? Compassion?
Zionists for justice is a contradiction in terms. It's like abortionists for life.
This is the first time I've wandered onto your blog, and her's my question: How come voices such as yours are hard to find on wider circulation outlets, such as Salon or even Huffington Post. Their general view seems to be that all we have to do to save the country is get Obama elected — nothing about the pressures that may tie his hands in steering foreign policy.
Do you believe this lacuna is due to the outlook of the editors? Or is it just stupidity?
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