Bernard Avishai describes his blog as being "responses mainly to rash opinions about Israel and its conflicts," but the sober prof is becoming more and more despairing (and brave) about the future of Israel. His latest piece studies Nazi history for analogy. He says of Weimar, Germany:
The mere suggestion that there might be any parallels here to Israel’s “situation,” or to the fate of its center, is a serious violation of the consensus here. Could any Israeli extremist ever seriously be compared to any Nazi?
Well, yes, in the back of his mind, Avishai says. Why isn't this stuff in the American press? Because we live in fairyland here, half a world away, with one job: to protect Israel's support and image. And when American Jews should be helping these people stumble out of darkness, they just offer them encouragement. Jeff Blankfort, who sent this along, writes:
"I think Avishai's comparisons in mindset are very real….Despite the one-sided casualties, polls showed that 90% of the Israel Jews supported the Israeli attack which represents their Nazification, as well. In past wars, exclusive of 1967, I do not recall Israelis giving their warmakers the same degree of backing, particularly when the nature of the casualties on the other side became apparent. But it should be evident that the Israelis who are leaving are being replaced by full blown racists. Who else would emigrate to such a state? There is no one anywhere near the top levels of the government that is interested in negotiating a two-state solution as envisioned by Chomsky's "international consensus," and to think a two-state solution is still viable is just delaying the inevitable and setting the stage for the next Gaza.
I challenged Blankfort to find a milder word than Nazification.
"I wished there were a milder term, but the polls and comments from Israelis at every level about what their military did in Gaza, leave me without an alternative. There is more talk now, having gotten away again with mass murder, that Israel will provoke an attack on Lebanon to revenge its humiliation at the hands of Hezbollah. At some point, perhaps too late, the world leaders will realize the extent to which contempt for "the other" has driven deep into Israeli society and at that point, as far fetched as it seems at this time, the only solution will be a forced dissolution of the Israeli state. That is the direction in which things are heading and at a frightful pace."
(Phil Weiss)
Related posts:
- An Argument for How the Nazi Analogy May Actually Build Sympathy for Israel
- Avishai: Gaza is Israel’s war against the idea of democracy
- Jerusalem neocon who claims influence in D.C. says Israel faces Nazi societies in Jordan and Egypt
- Avishai also says Netanyahu will rule
- Avishai warns that ‘terrible violence’ is coming
{ 50 comments }
The upcoming election may seal the deal on the Nazification of the Israeli people. If there's a governing coalition between the Likud and the far-right only, who's to stop them from engaging in a systemic ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, and turning Gaza into a genuine concentration camp?
Unfortunately, the term "Nazi" has become disconnected from history in the same manner as the Holocaust. In popular usage, it simply means "total evil."
I avoid making such analogies, not because they are not there–(ideologically, Zionism and National Socialism are simply mirror images of the same vaguely spiritualized 19th century racial nationalism)–but because the term is too morally loaded.
It usually doesn't help if I explain that I actually admire many aspects of National Socialism…and Zionism…;)
Wow, so is any country that supports attacks on people that fire thousands of rockets at them over an extended period run by "Nazis" or just Israel?
How about the U.S. support for WWII after Pearl Harbor? Was that pretty high? I forget, was it the U.S., or the Germans that were the Nazis in WWII?
We killed half a million Japanese civilians and I don't know how many German civilians in WWII, which was very popular in the U.S.A. So I guess by this idiot's logic, the Americans were Nazis in WWII.
Fact is, the war was popular for the same reason that wars against people who are attacking civilians are always popular with the civilians being attacked. BECAUSE THEY ARE ATTACKING YOUR CIVILIANS!
This Nazi analogy is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
A not so often recognized problem with the Nazi metaphor is the completeness of it as an historical event, its wholeness as narrative – the way it begins, and has its awful middle, and then it ends, in crushing defeat, with the resumption of the larger moral narrative from which it had broken away.
It's a comforting tale in a classic form – here's the evil dragon, here's what it did, how everyone suffered, and here's how the evil dragon was killed.
From within the Nazi zeitgeist the future didn't hold a broken fatherland and an impoverished, shamed Volk, but an empire – the Reich triumphant.
The danger for those who oppose them is the illusion that these schemes will always fail simply because they lack moral truth.
The men and women – and the spirits – guiding and running current Israeli policies don't look ahead to moral retribution and karmic reversal, they see the Kingdom of God on earth being born.
This narrative is deeper rooted than the Aryan wet dreams of Goebbels and Himmler, it goes way, way back.
It may be a serious mistake to confront the immorality and inhuman violence of the IDF and its leaders and decision-makers as purely geo-political misdeeds, the way it was a mistake to treat the fundamentalist Christian power that the neo-cons harnessed to put GWBush in the White House as simply delusional and superstitious.
Yes it is that, but it's a lot more too. And some of what it is is basic, evolutionary, biological, coming out of a deeper reality, where human moral distinctions can seem like nothing more than shallow sentiment.
The tide's turning, and not least because so many articulate voices are being raised, so much intellectual strength is being brought to bear.
Still it's very late, and a lot of blood's on the ground. It's clear there are those who would blow us and the world itself all to hell rather than admit they've gone too far – force alone won't stop them.
We have to face them down with all the truth we have, and that means bringing our own hearts and minds up out of illusion.
Of course they're fucking Nazis.
FROM ROY BELMONT, ABOVE: "…it was a mistake to treat the fundamentalist Christian power that the neo-cons harnessed to put GWBush in the White House as simply delusional and superstitious…"
FROM "THE FUNDAMENTALIST" (02/04/09) – by Sarah Posner @ prospect.org
5. Christian Zionists Target Christian Campuses.
As part of its effort to recruit college students to Christian Zionism, John Hagee's Christians United for Israel (CUFI) this week held an Arab-Israeli Conflict Forum at the late Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. On hand was a representative of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), and Randall J. Price, Executive Director of the University's Center for Judaic Studies. Price is also the executive director of World of the Bible Ministries, which publishes and promotes an array of books and other resources prophesying the end of days and the Second Coming of Christ — a scenario in which, as we all know, the Jews do not fare well. AIPAC must be very glad that CUFI and Liberty University are looking out for the Jews.
SOURCE – http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_fundamentalist_020409
The reason I am so rude is that I regard most of the readership here as having no higher ambition than to become comfortable well-paid collaborators with the supposedly oncoming global jewish nazi regime (providing they are allowed to give it a nice neo-liberal paint job first, to avoid misunderstanding)….
But it may help to point out that none of you appear to have any idea what politics is about. It is not about 'identities': "I am a Jew", I am a woman," "I am a Black", I am a gay," I am a Christian," bla bla bla.
Politics is about processes. And the global zionist process, of perpetual war, putsch, purge, leveraged buy-out, and bankruptcy, combines the worst features of nazism with the worst features of stalinism.
FROM ROY BELMONT, ABOVE: "…it was a mistake to treat the fundamentalist Christian power that the neo-cons harnessed to put GWBush in the White House as simply delusional and superstitious…"
EXCERPT FROM "Mike Evans Attacks Jimmy Carter, Opposes a Two-State Solution & Wants to Bomb Iran" – by Bill Berkowitz, 02/05/09
These days, Evans has honed in on another target: former President Jimmy Carter. Evans has written a new book titled "Jimmy Carter: The Liberal Left and World Chaos," a sharp rebuke of President Carter's efforts at working for a peaceful solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.
"This book helps you connect the dots and understand how we have come to this crisis," states the promotional materials at the book's Web site. "More importantly, the book tells you how it can be resolved. It contains information that has never been revealed by diplomatic sources worldwide. It divulges the agenda of Jimmy Carter and the Liberal Left to sell America and the Bible Land to the highest bidder."
In a profile of Evans, Right Web, a project of Political Research Associates, pointed out that in a 2007 article for his own online publication, Jerusalem World News, Evans criticized efforts aimed at a two-state solution:
"The acceptance of this vile plan would turn Israel into a living hell. The Jewish people would be forced to live next door to a state controlled by Islamic fanatics such as Hamas. I am reminded over and over of the scripture in Psalm 83:2-5: For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; and those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, and consulted together against Your sheltered ones. They have said, 'Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more.' For they have consulted together with one consent; they form a confederacy against You."…..
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/20144
MIKE EVAN'S WEBSITE – http://jerusalemprayerteam.org/
With the US effectively giving up on confronting Iran, the entire burden for blocking Iran’s quest for nuclear weapons falls on Israel’s shoulders. Given the US-led international community’s decision not to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, it is clear that in the coming months Israel will need to do two things. It will need to put the nations of the world on notice that they cannot expect us to stand by idly as they welcome Iran into the nuclear club. And Israel will need to prepare plans to strike Iran’s nuclear installations without America’s support.
- from Israel’s Fateful Elections
Caroline Glick, JPost, Feb 6 2009
FROM ROY BELMONT, ABOVE: "…it was a mistake to treat the fundamentalist Christian power that the neo-cons harnessed to put GWBush in the White House as simply delusional and superstitious…"
Project Pterosaur
By Dr. Richard Paley & Fellowship University Theobiology Department Staff
About Project Pterosaur
Mission Statement
The goal of Project Pterosaur is to mount an expedition to locate and bring back to the United States living specimens of pterosaurs or their fertile eggs, which will be displayed in a Pterosaur Rookery that will be the center piece of the planned Fellowship Creation Science Museum and Research Institute(FCSMRI). Furthermore, the rookery facility will establish a breeding colony of pterosaurs in order to produce specimens that could then be put on display by other regional institutions or church groups.
By doing all this, we hope to accomplish three goals:
*Support Creation Theory by showing the incorrectness of the philosophy of Evolutionism.
*Educate the population about Creation Science.
*Create excitement about Creation and the Bible in the public.
WEBSITE (DONATIONS WELCOME)-
http://objectiveministries.org/creation/projectpterosaur.html
FROM "THE MAGNES ZIONIST" 01/04/09 – by Jerry Haber (nom de plume): The truth is that Israel finds it easy to justify the so-called collateral damage in Gaza for the same reason that America found it easy to justify the collateral damage in Iraq. Because most Israelis are bigots when it comes to the Arabs, whether they are Hamas terrorists or Israeli citizens. They are gnats, tics, or perhaps, some quasi-humans, who one doesn't really care about. Or as the wife of a rabbi told me, "They are animals, Jerry, all of them."
SOURCE – http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2009/01/from-ticking-bombs-to-bombing-tics-why.html
***********************************************************************
FROM "THE MAGNES ZIONIST" 01/04/09 – by Jerry Haber (nom de plume): "Every time you think that Israel has hit rock bottom with respect to morality, we learn the painful truth – we still can and will descend further into the muck."
SOURCE – http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2009/01/only-jewish-prophet-left-gideon-levy-on.html
RE: "well-paid collaborators"
I have many faults, but I am not 'for sale'. It's a bit of a family tradition. 'twill be our theme in glory!
I am not now, nor have I ever been, 'well-paid'.
The Wehrmacht fought skillfully and courageously against its equals. It would have held the IDF in contempt. It committed great crimes, and other Nazis worse. But it was a military with some vestiges of honor. It did not devote itself entirely to the brutalization of the helpless. Imagine Rommel fighting the IDF, equal forces, equal equipment.
Israel, by virtue of 70 years of savage violence against the innocent, and 60 of nearly universal service in an army of expulsion and occupation, commanded until recently by the truly merciless terrorists of the 30s and the 40s – Stern, Irgun, or Haganah – has been from the very beginning massively corrupted by its acts.
Study Kafr Kassem, and its consequences. Twelve miles from Tel Aviv. No different than the Jerusalem or Haifa or the hill villages in 1938, no different than the massacres and expulsions of 1948, or the murders of prisoners in 1967, or the devastation in Lebanon in 1982, or in Gaza last month.
What puzzles me, as a non-Jew who has spent most of a long life with Jews, is how none of my Jewish friends and relations, former wife, converted sister, in-laws by the dozen, resembles this at all – and how they even yet refuse to see, or speak out, or act at all, against it.
But it is long past too late. The outcry from American Jews should have come in 1982. It did not. Their Israel is lost. We will now see, as Levy and others say, the real face. Straight out of the ugliest parts of the Old Testament, I fear.
FROM ROY BELMONT, ABOVE: "…it was a mistake to treat the fundamentalist Christian power that the neo-cons harnessed to put GWBush in the White House as simply delusional and superstitious…"
EXCERPT FROM "GOP Brain-Trust University’s Law School Dean Pleads Guilty to Child Sex Abuse"
Jesus-Crazed Child Sex Abuser and Intellectual Leader of Regent University Law School. Check Out This Twisted ****. His Students Are Running Parts of the Federal Government. Be Afraid.
Regent University is the heart and soul of the GOP intellectual brain trust, a center of psuedo-learning that emphasizes savage racism, xenophobism, hatred of homosexuals, fear of non-Jeebus-crazed religions and advocates the overthrow of secular government in America and transformation of the nation into a medieval theocracy of the sort that would make Iran look like West Hollywood.
Founded by Christian Coalition founding psychopath, evangelist and failed presidential candidate Pat Robertson, Regent University sent bus loads of its graduates into the Department of Justice and other federal ministries during the Bush administration, most often in appointed roles but some taking on permanent civil servant mandarin positions where they still lie in wait, theocratic suicide bombers ready to spring into action to do their part to reduce America to a cult of Jesus.
No one really knew what the Regentoids were capable of, what monstrous principles they were taught there and animated their diabolical agenda, until Stephen L. McPherson, 39, Regent University law school’s assistant dean pleaded guilty earlier this month for two counts of indecent acts on little girls…..
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.stinque.com/2009/01/28/gop-brain-trust-universitys-law-school-dean-pleads-guilty-of-child-sex-abuse/#more-4252
I can't imagine any circumstance in which "world leaders" could or would, as Blankfort argues, force a "dissolution of the Israeli state." If Israel attacks Iran there will be a major Mid-east war. Is that the context in which Blankfort envisions a dissolution? Israel would certainly win that war. It could attack Iran at will. Iran's retaliatory force on the other hand consists of erratic missiles that may or may not launch on command and a satellite in a lop-sided low earth orbit. What is it that world leaders would do in the aftermath of such a war? I expect they'd do what they usually do, which is nothing.
SPEAKING OF NAZIS:
EXCERPT FROM "Al Gore is creating another Hitler Youth, Glenn Beck feverishly warns"
By David Neiwert @ crooksandliars.com – Friday, Feb 06, 2009
Sometimes I think Glenn Beck is saying the crazy things he does just to get attention from liberals for being so crazy. It's the Ann Coulter model of right-wing punditry: the more outrageous the better for your ratings.
But Beck isn't as smart as Coulter. He's also more of a Bircherite populist, and he's convinced himself that the more mawkish the better he'll appeal to that sensibility. Unfortunately for Beck, he is also handicapped by not having a very firm grip on reality in the first place (not that this ever stopped other right-wing millionaire pundits). It shows up in his great fondness for right-wing populist conspiracy theories.
So after resorting to the good old Bircher standby — "Commie! Obama's a Commie!" — the night before, on his show last night he veered completely to the other side of the road and accused liberals of incipient Nazism….
ENTIRE ARTICLE & VIDEO – http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/al-gore-creating-another-hitler-yout
ME CHANNELING GROUCHO: "I've lost my mind. May I borrow yours?"
DICKERSON3870, CUFI's Executive Director, David Brog, is Jewish:
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/08a/cufi_obsession.html
Thom. We killed half a million Japanese civilians and I don't know how many German civilians in WWII, which was very popular in the U.S.A. So I guess by this idiot's logic, the Americans were Nazis in WWII.
We didn't do it for 60 years.
AGAIN, SPEAKING OF NAZIS:
Focus on the Family Accuses Obama of Violating Christian Free Speech Rights, Acting Like a Nazi.
Michael Steele may have been elected chair of the Republican National Committee, outpolling religious-right favorite Ken Blackwell (who ended up throwing his supportto Steele), but Rush Limbaugh is the religious right's man of the hour. A video on Focus on the Family's Web site, "Judgment to Rush", narrated by Focus radio personality Stuart Shepard, repeats the conservative talking point that Obama is trying to silence Rush, and preposterously asserts that conservatives' failure to speak up for poor Rush Limbaugh in the face of the fascistic criticism from all those "wild-eyed liberals" is like not speaking up against Nazism.
Against the backdrop of a sign that reads "Jesus Coming Soon," a woman rips off the poem attributed to Martin Niemoller: "When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent, because I was not a communist." She concludes, "When they came for me, well, actually, they didn't come for me, because by then, I was living in a socialist country, where my preacher's sermons are approved by the U.S. Department of Orthodoxy."
SOURCE – http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_fundamentalist_020409
Duscany. Iran's retaliatory force on the other hand consists of erratic missiles that may or may not launch on command and a satellite in a lop-sided low earth orbit.
Are you out of your mind? The Russians sold them S-400 MISSILE SYSTEMS, and the Yahont-Onyx and its successor, whose name I can't remember, but it is one of the deadliest missiles in the world and one for which we have no deterrent. Our aircraft carrier officers have just enough time to take a deep breath before the entire aircraft carrier is obliterated. Not bombed. Not strafed. Powdered. Pouffed. Into dust like 911.
Many Sources:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread301573/pg1
http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Ship-Missiles/Yakhont_a001021001.aspx
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188197171387&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
This is about the Yahont coming out in 1999. The latest one was in 2003, I think.
http://www.rense.com/politics5/stealthmiss.htm
Dont believe any sources that try to tell you we can match this Russian power. We can't. The latest one travels at MACH 2.9 which is 2.9 X the speed of light, and 45 ft above the water. It can turn o a dime and go after its target. And the only place where you'll find the truth about this is in Jane's Defense Weekly and you need a subscription for it.
All of our live tests to counter this, which we ran in 2005 and 2006, went bust. I doubt you'd find one single reference to our exposure anywhere on the web; most scrubbed clean by the DoD Roadmap boys. But ABC News had a discussion for about a week, and the normally colorless military were colorful in their expression of what this mofo could do.
Correction. It is The latest one travels at MACH 2.9 which is 2.9 X the speed of sound, not "speed of light."
Rowan. at February 07, 2009 at 12:26 AM.
Good point.
MRW you are correct that Israel is in no position to defeat Iran — it is just too far away. They might be able to drop a few bombs and perhaps use their submarines to send in some cruise missiles but the damage would be extremely limited. No one thinks they would attack with nuclear weapons.
However your comments on missiles is a little over-the-top. The anti-ship missiles (yakhonts and sunburn-22)are formidable weapons but they do not have the capacity to pulverize a US aircraft carrier. They probably could evade any defense that the navy has and they would puncture the ships shell and cause considerable localized damage. It remains to be seen if they could sink a ship that large.
I think one of the reasons that the US finally decided not to attack Iran is that any US ship in the Persian Gulf would have been vulnerable to being sunk, especially the frigates, destroyers and cruisers. Recall that the strongest oponent within the military against such an attack was Admiral Fallon.
I think the Iranians can thank the Russians for these missiles and the success of the Iraqi insurgents in stopping the US from attacking them.
If war with Iran might be in the cards again, as Col. Lang at Sic Semper Tyrannis suggests, then might be justified to consider a few facts about Iran's retaliatory capabilities.
Regarding one form of possible retaliation to an attack, there seems to be, as Seymour Hersh said, "No learning." How it is that the catastrophic results of the largest and most expensive war game in history, specifically gaming an attack on Iran, have disappeared from the discussion, is a puzzle.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,95496,00.html
An excerpt from Joe Galloway's piece: "Though fictional names were applied, it involved a crisis moving toward war in the Persian Gulf and in actuality was a barely veiled test of an invasion of Iran.
In the computer-controlled game, a flotilla of Navy warships and Marine amphibious warfare ships steamed into the Persian Gulf for what Van Riper assumed would be a pre-emptive strike against the country he was defending.
Van Riper resolved to strike first and unconventionally using fast patrol boats and converted pleasure boats fitted with ship-to-ship missiles as well as first generation shore-launched anti-ship cruise missiles. He packed small boats and small propeller aircraft with explosives for one mass wave of suicide attacks against the Blue fleet. Last, the general shut down all radio traffic and sent commands by motorcycle messengers, beyond the reach of the code-breakers.
At the appointed hour he sent hundreds of missiles screaming into the fleet, and dozens of kamikaze boats and planes plunging into the Navy ships in a simultaneous sneak attack that overwhelmed the Navy?s much-vaunted defenses based on its Aegis cruisers and their radar controlled Gatling guns.
When the figurative smoke cleared it was found that the Red Forces had sunk 16 Navy ships, including an aircraft carrier. Thousands of Marines and sailors were dead."
For more on anti-ship missiles, Airpower Australia has useful material, particularly this:
http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Regional-ASCM.html
See especially the section: "Defending Against Supersonic ASCMs," and note that Iran would not need to be firing missiles from long range bombers, but from their very long and rugged coastline, and from "fast patrol boats" and "converted pleasure craft."
Note also that Iran may not have the advanced Sunburns or Yakhonts, but does not require them to do huge damage.General van Ripper sank the American fleet (16 ships, including an aircraft carrier and two marine corps helicopter carriers, in 48 hours) without them. The C-802 is a very capable missile. Iran manufactures a version of this missile. They may have a very large number, more than adequate for flooding attacks. Note also the utter failure of the US to stop scud attacks in the first Gulf War, and Israel's utter failure last summer to supress Hezbollah rocket fire.
Further, as has been pointed out, Iran has other powerful weapons. In that regard, and for a general view, this article is very useful. General van Ripper did nothing that the Iranians could not be expected to do, and capable of doing. His "thinking outside the box" is their naval doctrine. See:
"Marshall Center Occasional Paper #10
Obsolete Weapons, Unconventional Tactics, and Martyrdom Zeal: How Iran Would Apply its Asymmetric Naval Warfare Doctrine in a Future Conflict
Date: April 2007, Author: Jahangir Arasli"
At: http://www.marshallcenter.org/site-graphic/lang-en/page-pubs-index-1/page-occpapers-research-1/xdocs/research/pubs/occ-papers/occpapers.htm
And if all this weren't enough, there is the diesel-electric submarine issue.
So all in all, to say that:
Iran's retaliatory force on the other hand consists of erratic missiles that may or may not launch on command and a satellite in a lop-sided low earth orbit.
is misinformed.
On issues of war ignorance has consequences.
Ignorance, and the lying it enabled, took us to Iraq, to kill a million or so, and destroy the lives and hopes of the rest of an entire country, spend a trillion or two or three, take our attention off of Israel's settlements, and thus any possibility or a near term resolution of that corrosive issue, not to mention global warming and the gutting of our economy and livelihoods and future. Screwed us, completely. Because we didn't pay attention.
So when Col. Lang speculates on what the Israelis might do to force our hand on Iran, perhaps we should pay attention.
Iran is not Gaza.
The purpose of war games is to expose weakness in yourself, not the enemy. Therefore, the games told the pentgon what it needs to do to win such a conflict with the minimum loss of American life.
What is more interesting is that some idiots believe that Israel would plan the Iran-American war as a diversion to keep 280,000 people in the west bank for a few more years.
If that were the case, Israel would be planning the Sino-American war. That should keep all of the settlements going for 100 years. And after that time, when no plaestinians could be found, Israel could manufacture the paperwork proving all of the palestinains left to by martyrs for China.
You've got to love the conspiracy nuts like Rowan, Martin, and MRW. They give you so much rope to hang them.
The Israelis wanted the USA to hit Iran first; then, they agreed Iran could take second place, after Iraq was defeated–everything went according to this plan, which was worked about by USA neocons in conjunction with Israelis, the USA general being the dupes. You can find the original "white papers" easily on the internet. All the usual
suspects signed the papers and/or implemented them from their appointed slots in BushCo regime.
The clock is ticking on Iran, despite the fiascos in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Iran has a good defensive missile system–from Russia with love.
Israel will attack Iran, and USA will join in; the whole Middle East
will ignite. The fire will burn for decades; the USA will decline ever
faster.
Russia and Germany will rise again.
The S-400 means Israel cannot defeat Iran without destroying itself.
There, there, that's a good conspiracy nut. Your meds will be by soon.
MrW: "Are you out of your mind? The Russians sold them S-400 MISSILE SYSTEMS, and the Yahont-Onyx and its successor."
The S-400 is a defensive missile system designed to intercept incoming planes and missiles. Iran wants them but as far as I know she doesn't have any, nor the older S-300s. Given that, it is hard to see Iran mounting a successful attack on Israel. Her current missiles neither have the range or reliablity to attack Israel (not to mention nuclear warheads). The single missile which could hit Israel was the one used to launch their first earth satellite. But it isn't clear that this one could carry an atomic warhead and in any case Iran doesn't yet have atomic weapons to mount on their satellite launch missiles.
You're right that US aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf would be vulnerable to Iranian missiles. Hopefully Israel will warn the United States before she attacks Iran so we can move our ships to safety. An Israeli attack on Iran is not our war and we should stay far out of it.
"the only solution will be a forced dissolution of the Israeli state. That is the direction in which things are heading and at a frightful pace."
It's always good for a laugh to see you Israel haters quoting each other to show how profound you are.
syvanen. Well, I'll just have to go searching for the military description of what it can do.
Go here:
http://www.dedefensa.org/forum.php?art_id=2673
Search for this phrase and read the translated article:
La maîtrise russe en matière de missiles
They have the capacity to pulverize, "vaporize" as the military guy said in the ABC News account, an aircraft carrier.
This article calls it "smoking an aircraft carrier."
The U.S. Air Force ALCM, and the U.S. Navy Tomahawk have been both shot down by conventional anti-aircraft fire in Iraq as well as in Serbia. In the opinion of experts, "Yakhont" will not have competitors on the world market into nearest 30 years.
Taking into account current trends in the development of the navies in the world, this fact is of paramount importance. Owing to the unique characteristics of the Yakhont missile, even light warships armed with it will be able to perform missions that before could only be handled by large combatants ships.
"There isn't even defence for the Moskit and the Yakhont is smaller, faster and more advanced. It will smoke an aircraft-carrier before the battle group even detect it. [...]
From the same article:
All the reports at how shocked our military was to discover its massive power have been scrubbed. I have copies, but as I've written several times on this board, those copies are on another hard drive I dont have the energy to access.
syvanen, it obliterates an aircraft carrier. They don't call it "Shock and Awe," they call it "Something and Light." Can't remember the term. Because that is all you see of the target after it hits.
Good thing that American carriers need be no where close to Iran in order to destroy that country's war making ability.
Duscany. Iran has them. The Yahont is sometimes called the Onyx, or Oniks. Russia sold them to Iran in 2003, I think that's the year, could be wrong. Cant remember. The USA tried to buy the Sunburn or Sunburst, Yahont's predecessor, in 1995, so we could reverse engineer it. Russia refused to sell it to us.
You need to do a thorough Google search to find out about the sale. But it happened. Jane's Defense Weekly has the details.
Read this:
http://www.articlediscovery.com/blog/2007/04/23/russian-yahont-anti-ship-missile/
And be sure to read this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=politics
They speculate in these articles that Russia may have sold the missiles to Iran. I'm telling you that I saw two accounts of Iranian officials saying they have them. AND THOSE ACCOUNTS ARE NOT OFF THE WEB.
Correction. AND THOSE ACCOUNTS ARE NOW OFF THE WEB
anonymous @ February 07, 2009 at 04:33 AM
Good post.
Duscany. I remember where I saw those accounts of the Iranian sales. It was a military defense site quoting or publishing a reporter covering an arms sale in the Far East, where USA boycotts are meaningless. The reporter talked to an Iranian official there.
Duscany. Also Jane;s Defense Weekly. I used to have Lexis-Nexis but no longer. If you can gain access to it, you'll find the articles.
The similarity in mindset to Weimar Germany actually makes some sense, if it is not pushed to far. But I do not agree that Nazi Germany was an inevitable development from Weimar Germany. It could definitely have turned into another direction, had conditions been different.
For this reason, even accepting similarities in today's Israel and the Weimar republic, it is unfair and non-helpful to conclude that tomorrow's Israel will be similar to Nazi Germany.
Also, the similarity breaks down at some points. Israel has, for a long time, practically wallowed in its military strength and waged successful war after successful war. Weimar Germany, by contrast, was a helpless military dwarf and deeply hit by this helplessness inflicted to it by others.
A taste of the mindset of the new Israeli generation is pretty chilling
in the context of this thread–especially for the USA, Israel's special
partner:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061910.html
Dear fellow contibutors to this site!
I have been following the israeli/palestinian crisis for years, and know that there are some bright people out there who might help answering the following:
We constantly hear, that Fatah was/is corrupt, and we all agree on that this was an important reason why the palestinians elected Hamas in january 2006. Now the 64.000 ¤ question is: Who provided the money? It seems logic to direct the attention to those who had an interest, that Fatah stayed pliant and corrupt, namely Israel and USA. But yet I do not recall to have read anywhere that it was they that provided the money.
Is it because we are to close in time to when it happened (it is presumably still happening), and that in 20-30 years time we will hear former american officials telling TV-documentaries hive they bribed the palestinian leadership – just like we have witnessed in Ted Turners acclaimed documentary series "The Cold War", where former CIA-agents narrates how they ensured that the communists did not get to power in Italy after WW2 – I believe the first – and succesfull, as it turned out – instance, where Americans used money to archieve a desired political result.
I must say that if my assertion is right, and it was Israel and the US that supplied Fatah with money, it does somehow place pro-israelis constant wining about Arafat's stashes-away millions in foreign accounts, in a different, and crueler light. Not that I have ever payed any attention to these winings in my many years of online-discussions particularly on BBC messageboards , as I considered it bad taste for the victors to engage in these alleged wrong-doings by the oppressed and their leaders – and one has to remember that the pro-israelis who over the years have made such utterings, may well be utterly unknowing about who really were responsibly for the major part of the corruption.
And as I often used to argue, no matter where these money came from, it would make sense for Arafat to stash them away abroad – cause he could never know for certain when the israelis would arrive, and seize the money (as they did -with what they could find – in 2002) which theya claimed could be use to fund -terror. :-O
"I must say that if my assertion is right, and it was Israel and the US that supplied Fatah with money"
Brilliant. You should write books. they would certainly be best sellers.
Are you sure you have been following this issue for more than last 5 minutes?
'Pretty chilling' is an apt description. Israel has in my opinion crossed the event horizon, and is doomed. There will be no two-state solution, and there will be a bi-national state with equal rights for all only over the corpses of tens of thousands of religious lunatics. A new state with a formal and respected place for Jews may emerge from the ruins, but the likelihood diminishes with every new month of rampant Israeli colonialism.
The best we can do is limit the amount of damage they do to our own countries while they self-destruct. It is a mistake to assume that Israelis think like us, and that we can try to predict the bounds of their behavior within our own worldviews. I know this will sound hyperbolic to many, but given the colonial gangsters who run, have run, and are likely to continue to run the Israeli government, there is a nonzero chance that an Israeli Götterdämmerung will include genocidal revenge attacks on Arabs and Persians for their contemporary resistance and Europeans for their long past of antisemitism. I emphasize that I think it is highly unlikely, and merely observe that it is possible, and think that any nation within strike range of Israel nuclear weapons that is not making contingency plans ignores the threat to their peril. Israel possession of nuclear-weapon capable submarines expands this threat. I hope the US Navy is keeping close tabs on them.
Chris Berel wrote:
"Good thing that American carriers need be no where close to Iran in order to destroy that country's war making ability."
No, an irrelevant thing since they ain't gonna do it.
That, of course, is true. As of yet, there is no need to destroy Iran's war making ability.
But when sufficient reason exists, they will be the first to find out.
None of this yada,yada matters.
The Israelis are nazis, same exact mentality.
Plus they are truely bat shit crazy and believe that nothing they could do including destroying any and all US interest in the ME would cause the US to end support for them.
Whatever Israel and US zionist finally do in their out of control maddness will include their own self inflicted and final holocaust.
"Israel has in my opinion crossed the event horizon, and is doomed.'
How and when is this going to happen? I know they are going to "self destruct". What are the specifics? Riots in the streets? Revolution? Will the Israelis decide to let 5 million Arabs "return" and volunteer to be Dhimmis in their own State? Is it possible the Europeans send in a task force to take over? Will Hamas dig tunnels into Israel and overcome the vaunted Israeli army?
The only way I can figure is the Saudis may buy them out. Give a couple of mils to each Israeli. Nah that won't work.
I have stopped comparing the Israelis to Nazis, because I now realize that notwithstanding their feigned outrage, they are actually flattered by the comparison. They are proud of being Nazis.
>> "Israel has in my opinion crossed the event horizon, and is doomed.'
How and when is this going to happen?
Julian,
When and how is this going to happen? My best guess is civil war. Not all Israeli's are, as someone said above, "bat shit crazy". But sufficiently large portion are. This contingent of bat shit lunatics is pushing their agenda quite forcefully. Will sane Israelis stand by as the religious fringe push the coutry towards a theocracy modelled on 17th century norms? And what of jews outside of Israel?
Don't know what will bring this split into the open — maybe a good ass-kicking from Iran? — but when the lunatics overstep the line and bring harm to "normal Isarelis", well, watch the fur fly.
Sam
You could fit all the "normal Israelis" in a mini van.
With ample room to spare.
Great. I knew eventually that one antisemite would bring up that good old holocaust joke. Two in the front, two in the back, 6 million in the ashtray.
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