After all the denials, by Dershowitz and Gabriel Schoenfeld, it's nice to get this from Eli Kavon, a Floridian, writing in the Jerusalem Post:
MOST AMERICAN Jews, as loyal supporters as they are of Israel, would never have betrayed this great country like Pollard did. But the Pollard Affair raises many questions about the specter of dual loyalty among American Jews. It is obvious that Pollard did not truly believe he was betraying his country. As an American Jew, I have lived my whole life hearing the mantra that "the interests of America are the interests of Israel." Fortunately, we, as Jews in America, have been protected from charges of dual loyalty precisely because the American dream and the Zionist dream share so much in common.
Perhaps Pollard thought that by helping Israel fight its enemies, he was helping America fight its enemies. In the post-9/11 world, America and Israel are indeed fighting the common enemy of global terrorism and Islamic extremists. But let us imagine that a day will come in America when US and Israeli goals are not the same. I do not see that day coming soon, yet in theory all American Jews who love and support Israel are faced with the specter of dual allegiance. What would we do if in a future conflict our country was in direct opposition to the Jewish state?
Dude: the American/Zionist dream is over. The two countries have very separate interests. Make Israel a real ally in the war on intolerance, say by urging its democratization, or make aliyah.
"It is obvious that Pollard did not truly believe he was betraying his country."
This is half-hearted self-deception. It may be 'obvious' to Mr. Kavon that "Pollard did not truly believe he was" doing anything wrong, but I cannot believe that Pollard did know that he was betraying the country to which he swore an oath of allegiance, nor do I believe that Mr. Kavon 'truly' believes it. It is a good first step towards confronting the dilemma, but there is still some distance left on the path to full self-honesty, and an end to America's involuntary participation in ethnic cleansing and colonization.
"But let us imagine that a day will come in America when US and Israeli goals are not the same. I do not see that day coming soon…"
That's hilarious in its sheer obtuseness. That day came long ago; in fact, I'm not sure America's and Israel's goals, or even interests, ever had much in common. It's not that the day hasn't come yet; it's just taking a long time for people to clue in.
Thanks, Phil: progress, as you say, but what a sad commentary on the debasement of the American dream, founded on the purging of native Americans.
The tragedy of Bush's wrong-headed, blood-thirsty revenge for the Sept 11 attacks is precisely that he believed as Kavon does that the U.S. was one with Israel, "fighting the common enemy of global terrorism and Islamic extremists." The AIPAC machine saturated the airwaves with the brain-washing that "We are all Israelis, now."
How sad that we didn't have an independent, honest press to investigate the consequences of U.S. support for Occupation. ["Harper's" and a few others tried, but were drowned out.]
Kavon adds this sad fact about Israel [which explains why Israel "proper", aside from the Occupation, is an Apartheid state]:
"The Law of Return is a legal recognition that Jewish identity is a national identity. Identity in the Jewish state, usually for the good but sometime for the bad, is Jewish identity. The American and French revolutionaries of two centuries ago would not stand for a state within a state. The heavy price of citizenship is that Jews lost their national identity. Zionism was both a response to anti-Semitism and a response to that loss of public Jewish identity."
Thanks, Craig and Colin.
The French revolutionaries butchered who they felt were not with them. great example to follow. They sound just like today's supporters of islamic fascism, like susan kneeler. I wonder what she's kneeling to right now?
chris berel,
You Zionists are following the example of the Jewish Bolsheviks, who murdered tens of millions, with your increasingly totalitarian Zionism. And you're foolishly digging yourselves a hole that will only be surmounted by either killing millions more, or by the destruction of Israel. It seems you are insistent on following Rabbi Perin's mandate of killing a million gentiles for every lost Jewish fingernail. With a mentality like that, is it any wonder that Israel is in a perpetual state of war and always will be until it draws it borders, abandons its Zionist delusions of manifest destiny and adopts democracy?
"That's hilarious in its sheer obtuseness. That day came long ago; in fact, I'm not sure America's and Israel's goals, or even interests, ever had much in common. It's not that the day hasn't come yet; it's just taking a long time for people to clue in."
Aren't you one of the bozos calling for a nuclear Iran? I hardly think you speak for Americans.
Actually, it appears you are following the footsteps of Rowan, Martin, Lance, LD, and Eva. All goose stepping to fabricated nonsense. Doesn't the bullshit you strew get caught in your toes?
There is no need to counter this type shit. Just denounce the little antisemite, in this case ed, and continue on.
Good bye, little fellow, better luck next time.
Good come back, berel. "goose stepping…bullshit…antisemite…" How original. Haven't you figured out yet that the Zionist-boy-who-cried-wolf talking points don't work any more? The world is now wise to your warmongering ways. You're going to have to come up with a new methodology.
It's interesting this issue coming up now when this Lieberman guy is proposing some sort of loyalty oath in Israel with consequences for those who refuse to take same. (And perhaps criminal status for those who do take it but are found to violate it?)
Does anyone know the details of this proposal?
Sin nombre
Eurosabra can probably provide all the specifics. What I know is that the Right, Left, and centrists all oppose it for various reasons. So it's questionable that it would happen. But like I said, Eurosabra can speak to that better.
As for loyalty to this country, I think the Pro-Islamist/Fringe Left/Fringe Right coalition has more to worry about than Zionist Jews. If anybody's being watched, it's them. :-)
"Make Israel a real ally in the war on intolerance, say by urging its democratization, or make aliyah."
Sorry, Phil. American Jews will decide whether or not to make aliyah, not you, and like the large majority of our fellow Americans, the vast majority of us will support Israel, not Hamas.
As for you, why not make aliyah to Gaza? You could probably make more money there, as I hear that The Zionist Lobby has closed up over there.
Most Jews that I know support Israel no matter how they lean politically, so I don't know how much credit should be given for a few Jewish anti-Israel protestors. Why protest now?
I grew up around Gentile philo-Semites, but they would have never given large amounts of money to Israel on their own, and they surely would not have volunteered to fight for Israel or Israel's interests. I don't believe that America means the same thing to me as it does to most Jews, or other descendants of immigrants, and that is major problem.
The view that Israel's interests are even similar to America's is largely a Jewish view, and no Gentile that I know would draw comparisons between Zionism and the founding of the United States. I belive that it is un-American to guilt the nation over issues such as slavery, civil rights or Indian policies in order to support Israel. That's what's being done! I've had too many conversations that have endend with "your ancestors killed or enslaved _______." That may be true, but I don't see many Jews turning away the benefits–not even the ones I met who ran off to Israel to "purify" themselves .
I wonder if there is a moral equivalence between, on one side, Ms. Livni proposal that Israel citizens of Palestinian origin should move ( or be forcibly shoved) into the future Palestinian State, once it is formed, and, on the other side, the proposal that all European and American citizens of the Jewish origin should move (or be forcibly shoved) into the state of Israel, like Polish Jews were in 1968?
And if the two proposals are not equally morally repugnant, why is one of them more repugnant than the other?
Great question, Eva. I think we both know the answer.
Multiculuralism and massive immigration are not universally accepted in the West, and not a single person was ever allowed to vote on either issue. Many people are rightfully angry. Maybe we should all be careful in the examples we set. If our one-world utopia sours, things could get nasty!
"we, as Jews in America, have been protected from charges of dual loyalty precisely because the American dream and the Zionist dream share so much in common."
No. It was media censorship and the stiffling of dissent through the use of agressive ethnic operators disguised as civil rights enforcers which kept your protected. Until now.
@ Suzanne on American anti-Zionists: "If anybody's being watched, it's them."
Tsk, tsk, tsk, Suzanne. Your neo-Bolshevik tendencies are showing. As a culturally Christian libertarian, I view ethnically Jewish neo-totalitarians the same way Jews must view German neo-Nazis. Fortunately, there are only a handful of German neo-Nazis; unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish Zionist neo-totalitarians. And they're so racist and self-absorbed, they believe that their sensitivities and perspectives are the only ones that matter.
Suzanne, why don't you try to step outside your own selfish perspective and see the world through they eyes of other persecuted peoples?
"War on intolerance"? Just when I think there's nothing worse than a neocon, you go and outdo them.
Support for Israel in this country is a mile wide and an inch deep. Once goy America starts seeing Jewish Americans at last speaking out against Israeli atrocities it will open the floodgates. Suddenly all over the country Americans will be standing up saying, "Hey, no more killing kids in Gaza with our weapons and in our name."
As for Pollard, the reason he's still in jail is that he's not sorry. He never revealed the name of the American mole who was telling him what files to steal. Presumably that person is still in government and still betraying America whenever he can.
As for Israel, of course, it was never sorry about the spying either. Otherwise it would have returned the stolen documents, which it never has.
'I think the Pro-Islamist/Fringe Left/Fringe Right coalition has more to worry about than Zionist Jews. If anybody's being watched, it's them.'
That may have been so a few years ago; it may even be so now. But it won't be for long, and deep down, near the bottom, you know that in your bones. For one thing, there are now so many of us 'pro-Islamists' that if there's fringe, it's your lot. That trend is here to stay. Also, there is apparently a strong element in American spookdom which resists Israeli/Lobby influence (some would say control) and recent events will have encouraged it. There would still be Pollards and Kadishes about (and perhaps a Mega or two upstream), but their balls wouldn't be feeling quite as brassy as they were not so long ago, and I think the more sensible of them will know that the deepening economic decline will force loyalties to a more primary level. Any group or individual whose loyalties are ultimately elsewhere should reconsider their priorities. To me, ardent Zionists fit that description far better than placard-wielding little old ladies, or bright-eyed student protestors, and at some point, no amount of media and political cover will prevent that from being obvious to all.
How interesting. Glenn is admiting that he is siding with islamic fascism. The movement behind 9/11. glenn is saying that he hates Jews so much that he is willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of Americans in the hope that some Jews will die.
You've got a bunch of sick bastards supporting you Phil.
I think the Pro-Islamist/Fringe Left/Fringe Right coalition has more to worry about than Zionist Jews. If anybody's being watched, it's them.
This would be why the USA actually imported an ex KGB general to help run 'Homeland Security'.
"That may have been so a few years ago; it may even be so now. But it won't be for long, and deep down, near the bottom, you know that in your bones."
Ummm….make up, duckie…you've been dreaming about bones again.
The fact of the matter is…you spiral-eyed wackos have had about 3 weeks of confetti and built up expectation, and I suspect it's about to end.
Mainstream Europe is concerned about you. They don't like the Islamic/left wing/rightwing three-headed monster threatening their world.
And I'm going to guess divestment threats were the last straw.
Britain's hosting an international summit on this very issue, btw. You're NOT invited.
cheerio! :-)
Your slumber party is over, kids!
If Suzanne and berel were to get their way, Homeland Security would be rounding up anti-Zionists and shooting them in the streets. Wouldn't it be simpler and far less messy to buy every Zionist a one way ticket to Israel and strongly suggest they use it? After all, that's what they are all fighting for, and the animating principle behind their existence. What's taking them so long to vote with their feet?
Britain is not YET hosting an international summit on "this very issue". One MP on the conservative website, called for the summit to take place.
Is Ed paranoid, or what?
yoo hoo, Eva—it's a leetle more serious than that. :-)
we don't want your Islamic jihad
SN,
Please Google. The shorthand is that in recent Supreme Court cases, actual material support for terrorism was found to be inadequate grounds for revocation of social security benefits, although that law has been amended. Citizenship is fairly well protected, judicially, so I expect the Supreme Court to intervene to stymie Lieberman if he DOES take power. He is also attempting–do not forget–to embarrass anti-State pietistic Jewish communities with verbiage about "parasitism"–and inviting a HUGE backlash there, and he is already getting a huge backlash from the Israeli-Palestinian-Arab community, who are (for the most part) actual ISLAMISTS willing to play along with the state as long as they are not forced to declare themselves. Lieberman thinks he's going to "out" them as Hamas when in fact they are politically different, as well as holding on to Israeli citizenship largely by choice.
There is some precedent in Mandate law for detention for anti-state incitement, but unless the Supreme Court lets simple refusal to sign an oath be defined as incitement, even the British-era Emergency Regulations can't be invoked. (And any use of the ERs would probably be overturned by the court.)
Lieberman may actually be a real fascist who is betting he can take power and then intimidate the court, which will use Israel's small body of constitutional law to overturn any cases involving penalties for "disloyalty."
In response to a question I posed Eurosabra wrote:
"Please Google…."
Why the hell should I when I got you? Your response saw through my question about mere mechanics (which I know are easy to look up) to the context and dynamics of the thing which is much harder if not impossible to suss out from mere news reports or etc.
Very informative, keenly observed; thank you.
Eva raised the core question of dual loyalty, which has been a concern of critics of historical Zionism from day one. No other nation so clearly raises this question in its very self-identification of itself as a Jewish state institutionalizing the law of return for jews, jews as defined essentially by the Nazi and Orthodox laws of blood descent, most clearly–Jewish female womb descent. The German law of return was/is constricted by a base certain time in 20 Century history. Israel's law of return is eternal in the sense that it will apply as long as the state of Israel will exist. It almost goes without saying that the law flies in the face of the Constitutional law of the USA, Israel's enabler.
USA values must realize that the test of virtue is power and that victims may and do become predators. This lesson was learned by the Vietnam war, slowly learned again in the second Gulf War. The next step in realizing USA values is to end the Israeli occupation of the native Palestinians. It will come. There's no strategic interest to slow it, just the USA plutocracy. Hopefully, the current USA banker mess
will make Americans more tuned in to what their government spends its foreign aid money on.