Steve Clemons is for imposing a solution, because Israel and Palestine are incapable of doing it on their own. And he quotes Peter Berkowitz of the neoconservative Weekly Standard offering another reason Palestinians shouldn't have a state:
Indeed, the journalists, political analysts, and current and former
national security officials to whom I spoke were in striking agreement
that Livni and Barak as well as Netanyahu all see that the fundamental
obstacle to progress in resolving the conflict with the Palestinians is
Iran. Indeed, the case for Iran's centrality is convincing.
national security officials to whom I spoke were in striking agreement
that Livni and Barak as well as Netanyahu all see that the fundamental
obstacle to progress in resolving the conflict with the Palestinians is
Iran. Indeed, the case for Iran's centrality is convincing.
[Thanks to Eva Smagacz]
A correction is required:
Israel's interests are not in our national interests.
It is in our national interest to be friends with Iran. And to force a Palestinian state. The former for geo-strategic and energy reasons, the latter to regain the moral ground lost by aiding and abetting the rogue state of Israel. Further, we could gain support on the Arab street against their despotic governments with Iran as a friend. Our foreign policy is treasonous.
"Indeed, the case for Iran's centrality is convincing."
Oh, so today Iran is the problem. Yesterday, the subtext of the Iraq war was that Iraq was the problem. Tomorrow (or, after the Iran war) Syria will be the problem.
These Zionists and their collaborators must think Americans are complete idiots. And if Americans fall for their latest scam, they'll be right.
Nobody thinks that Americans are idiots Ed. You on the other hand are a total imbecile.
Boy, Harvard may have f'ed up on Matory and Benhabib, but they really dodged a bullet firing Berkowitz. I remember the year they gave Matory tenure and denied P-Berk. It was a proud moment.
Dear fellow contibutors to this site!
You know the SETI-projekt, which uses the processing power of individual personal computers to search for extraterrestial life? I certainly have encountered some lives here who seem pretty extra-terrestial to me, and the expression seems and accurate description of many zionists, but nevertheless i was hoping if perhaps we could combine our individual intelligence, and come up with a consistent answer to the following:
We constantly hear, that Fatah was/is corrupt, and we all agree on that this was an important reason why the palestinians elected Hamas in january 2006. Now the 64.000 ¤ question is: Who provided the money? It seems logic to direct the attention to those who had an interest, that Fatah stayed pliant and corrupt, namely Israel and USA. But yet I do not recall to have read anywhere that it was they that provided the money.
Is it because we are to close in time to when it happened (it is presumably still happening), and that in 20-30 years time we will hear former american officials telling TV-documentaries hive they bribed the palestinian leadership – just like we have witnessed in Ted Turners acclaimed documentary series "The Cold War", where former CIA-agents narrates how they ensured that the communists did not get to power in Italy after WW2 – I believe the first – and succesfull, as it turned out – instance, where Americans used money to archieve a desired political result.
I must say that if my assertion is proven correct, and it was Israel and the US that supplied Fatah with money, it does somehow place pro-israelis constant wining about Arafat's stashes-away millions in foreign accounts, in a different, and crueler light. Not that I have ever payed any attention to these winings in my many years of online-discussions particularly on BBC messageboards , as I considered it bad taste for the victors to engage in these alleged wrong-doings by the oppressed and their leaders – and one has to remember that the pro-israelis who over the years have made such utterings, may well be utterly unknowing about who really were responsibly for the major part of the corruption.
And as I often used to argue, no matter where these money came from, it would make sense for Arafat to stash them away abroad – cause he could never know for certain when the israelis would arrive, and seize the money (as they did in 2002, -with what they could find, – which they claimed could be use to fund -terror. :-O
I 100% agree with MRW @ February 07, 2009 at 10:14 PM. Zionists should not be allowed to work in national security positions inside the United States government because they cannot be trusted to differentiate between
"… the fundamental obstacle to progress in resolving the conflict with the Palestinians is Iran."
and
"… ISRAEL's fundamental obstacle to progress in resolving the conflict with the Palestinians is ISRAEL's preoccupation with Iran."
and make the choice that's best for America.
Iran would be a far more useful strategic partner than Israel. We've done business with far worse, and will again, when it is in our interest. The advantages a partnership with Israel brought us vanished years ago. Their refusal to stop ethnic cleansing and colonization is a threat to the United States. If they won't do it, we need to look out for ourselves and cut them completely off.
It is in our national interest to be friends with Iran.
Posted by: Citizen
It may have been in out national interest to side with Nazi Germany. But most moral nations put aside national interest to do the right thing.
Iran is not Nazi Germany. Some of their mullahs and politicians are unsavory fanatics, … and so are some of your rabbis and politicians. When was the last time Iran started a war? When was the last time Israel started a war?
Exactly why do you think supporting you is the more moral thing to do? I see good folk and bad folk on every side, and Israeli behavior sure doesn't make you guys stand out as anything special.
And the above doesn't imply we shouldn't side with Zionist Israel…?
israeli behavior is precisely why the USA should NOT support it. The moral obligation to NOT support Israel, combined with the geo-strategic interest, combine to clearly indicate Uncle Sam
has been blind way too long. Sam needs to lift up the AIPAC veil a tad. A friend awaits, Iran. Doesn't have a tin cup either.
Iran does have a tin cup. Severe economic unrest. Citizenship revolt over years of funding terrorism at the exspense of the well being of the people.
Citizen and littlebrain want to ally the US to the #1 exporter of terrorism. Moral? Only to littlebrain and citizen.
The Israel Lobby imposed an Embargo on Iran and supplied Iraq with weapons
Ever since Israels only ally on the face of the Earth, the Pahlavi-regime, fell in 1979, its powerful Lobby in The United States have been posing an Embargo on Iran. At first it tried to make Iran and Iraq exshaust themselves in a fruitless eight year long war.
The influx of dollars and weapons to Saddam, gave this individual an appetite to Kuwait, which it regarded as a lost iraqie province. And the rest is, as they say history.
And for sure, the story that will be told for generations to come, is how Israel – a country with an inhabitable square-area the size of Delaware and the adjacent Cecil county in Maryland, managed and stage-managed this war, via its control coffers of The United States of America.
It is one of the greatest hijacks in history – the hiacking of another countrys agenda, the worlds biggest superpower no less, all for the interests of one's own despicable micro-sized country, which itself constitutes an alien entity in the Middle East, an without which there would be peace in the middle East.
It may have been in out national interest to side with Nazi Germany. But most moral nations put aside national interest to do the right thing.
chris, the problem is you have to keep using the same clincher without supporting "cards" or evidence.
Why are such disparate political systems all essentially similar to the Nazi threat: Iraq, Iran …? Is it the Arab/Persian mind? A pan-Islamist threat scenario?
What further evidence is there–besides the Nazis–that the Jews and or Israel will always be at the center of and the ultimate aim of Nazi like processes that are a threat to the larger world and can only be answered by another world war?
WWI could have been stopped by saner minds. Without WWI, I doubt there would have been WWII and the Nazis.
It would be much easier to consider this as just another "Apocalypticism and Judeophobia" scenario if there wasn't a rather real conflict at the center. Why not try to solve it, instead of bombing the ME into dust? Meaning: it's not so easy to make out the good and bad guys in the larger story. Could it be they are on both sides? Why is that so impossible?
And after Iraq and Iran had exshasuted themselves and Saddam had been driven back from Kuwait – what then. Do you, my dera reder think the story ends here? Oh, no – then you certainly don't know what selfish people we are dealing with here- the greatest security-peril – with the potential for the greatest damage – that the world have seen since WW2.
The Lobby ensured that the US troops did not leave Saudi Arabia, although King Fahd had been promised before the war that they would be pulled out after the war.
Ans in 1993, the super-zionist and later US ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk -(who himself had gained US citizenship in 1993) – started promoting the utterly useless and in essense disastrous policy of 'dual containment' – its very name – echoing the containment of the USSR during the Cold War- implying the egocentric nature of the people who directs US Middle East policies; they actually thought that 'containing' Iraq and Iran – incidentially Israels two greatest strategic foes – was a worthwile goal for the worlds remaining superpower to engage in. And the purpose from the Lobby's point of view was of cause to be ready to 'finish the job (ie. overthrow Saddam) should the opportunity arise, which it did on 9/11.
The containment costed hundred of thousands of iraqie children their lives, and resulted in shortages in Iran as well. And the continued presence of US troops on holy saudi soil (they were pulled out in 2004) provided fundamentalists with a very powerful motive to attack US interest in the Middle East, like the attasck on US cole in 1998, and also the attack on the Kenyan embassies can be attributed to this.
An additional motive to attack America was provided by Israels treatment of Palestinians and the colonisation of Palestinian lands. This is actually the greater of the two chied motivating factors for 9/11 but together they form the major reasons US was attacked in this period.
You, the observant resder, will have notices that Israel and its supporters have a hand in both morivations, Therefore it is correct to claim that Israel and its Lobby in America constitutes the greatest security peril that the world have faced since WW2
Actually I should have used pan-Muslim threat scenario. That tells us more about the dimensions.
Without 9/11 – no Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. No Guantanamo and no terror-laws, where you are obliged to take your shoes off and your wife have her bra fumbled with before boarding a plane!
——-
Now I have stated that the 9/11 attacks would not have happended if Israel had been closed down in – say 1965. (Then we wouldn't neither have had the influx of 250.000 palestinian refugees to Jordan, from where they were expelled in september 1970 (black september), and fled to Lebanon, where they had an ufortunate impact on the the civil war. What is cetain is that this civil war first started after they has arrived (it started in 1975), and their activities was the reason Israel invaded i 1978 and again in 1982. israel managed to expell Arafat to Tunis, but this was a Pyrrhus-victory; in 1994 Arafat entered Gaza City in Triumf, following the first intifada and the Oslo peace process.
While in Lebanon, Israel encountered a formidable new foe – Hezbollah – set up in 1982 with the explicit goal of forcing Israel out of Lebanon, which it succeeded doing in 2000.
And if Israel had been closed in 1965 we wouldn't have had the oil-crisis either, where the Arabs turned the Tap in protest of unilateral western backing of Israel in the Octoberwar of 1973, resulting in the most severe economic setback since the Depression. Prices quadroubled – not just of oil, but actually of most commodities, following the common hysteria about lack of commodities. This knocked the bottom out of many, many industries and made the unemployment-rate soar. Governments everywhere took on loans in order to eliviate the pain brought on by the crisis – some of which are still running, albeit often in a refinanced form. Britain came close to defaulting on its debts and being placed under administration form the IMF.
LeaNder,
You keep thinking the immorality of Nazi Germany rest solely on their treatment of Jews. And while it is dead certain that without WWI there is no WWII, there is nothing showing that WWI would not have occured. Additionally, without a Hitler to unite Germany, there is no WWII.
The discussion is morality trumping national interest. Greengrass, citizen, american, eva, rowan, martin, colin, littlehorn, weiss and his ilk sacrifice morality for an easy life.
America's previous episodes of immorality – arming Saddam to kick the shit out of Iran, overthrow of so many democratically elected governments for fear of their alliance with the USSR, and so many others should not affect the actual moral stance America keeps in defending Israel against the hordes of islamic fascism driven by the humiliating thought that a pan-arab federation of 300 -400 million people can not drive a paltry 5.5 million Jews off of what they consider sacred Islamic Soil.
This cosmic humiliation, the thought that the Jews are stronger, smarter, and just better than they drives them crazy. Crazy enough to commit suicide in the hopes of killing one Jew.
Further, the Germans offered an honorable peace half way through WW1, when they were winning. The USA was drawn into the fray
in 1917, when England and France were losing. Anyone can google
who and how this was done. American bankers were afraid England would not be able to pay them back. Zionists were very much involved at the highest levels. Balfour declared to Rothschild. The doughboy was just a dupe.
The treaty results of WW1 set Germany up for the rise of Hitler.
Hitler unintentionally gave the world 1948 state of Israel. Less than 10 years later this state attacked Egypt, along with Britain and France.
And so on, and so on. Zionists have been a factor in both WW 1
& WW2 and Israel has been a factor in the middle east equal to
oil ever since. The Lobby simply continues a tradition from early in the last century into this century.
Minor correction: No not all of the 250.000
Palestinian refugees, that fled the advancing israeli troops on the Vestbank in june 1967, went on to Lebanon. The majority stayed in Jordan, and only a few thousand followed Arafat and the rest of the Palestinian leadership to Lebanon.
But we now know the price for expelling the palestinian leadership in this way. The incident was the start of the greatest terrorcampaign the world have ever seen, far outdoing recent hysteria about – for the most part – non existing terror. The world saw airplane-hijacking for the first time on a grand scale, and 16 israeli atletes were taken hostage at the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972. 'Only' two were killed by thge hostage-takers – the remaining 14 died in the ensuing gun-fight, after two helecopters – provided under the promises of a free transfer – were attacked by an amateurish acting west-german police.
The motives for the palestinians were as pointed out grief and anger of having been expelled from Palestine in 1967.
Further motives, that resonates among all Palestinians, includes anger, that Israel had taken Palestines place at the Olympics. Palestine had been a proud participant in tthe 20'ties and 30'ties, but from 1952 Israel took over its place (for the record: There were no olympics in 1940 and 1944, and in 1948 the parties were at war)
Everything must be done to enforce an Embargo on the jewish colony in Arabia with an inhabitable surface area the size of Delaware and the adjacent Cecil county untilk it complies and allows all Palestinians and their decendants to return to the land they are named after.
What is wrong with that? The jews would demand exactly the same if it was bosnians or tadjiks that in this way have been forced to live outside their Motherland for more than three score years. Therefore we can have no double-satndards and I expect Phil Weiss and Adam H.Oro-witch to as soon as possible to issue a statement, where they agree, that this is the the most fair, and the only solution that is durable in the log term.
WTF is grass and Chris Bereal babbling on and on about?
Oh and I love how Zionists and paranoid Jews play the Holocaust/Nazi card over and over.
Iran is not Nazi Germany. They would be a much better ally than the Zionists.
Israel is a fascist and racist State.
LD, I think you are mistaken. I have never entered into a discussion with Chris shooting-fish-in-a-barrel or berel or whatever he calls himself
chris berel and his ilk sacrifice morality for an easy life. Living in the USA and copying hasbara talking points for a living, while the real damage Israel has been doing goes on and on, as it did most recently for three weeks in Gaza.
Yep, this is just the latest episode of USA immorality.
We don't even have the threat of the USSR and its old proxies to justify it.
chris has lost it: "moral stance America keeps in defending Israel against the hordes of islamic fascism driven by the humiliating thought that a pan-arab federation of 300 -400 million people can not drive a paltry 5.5 million Jews off of what they consider sacred Islamic Soil. "
Such lunatic ranting. The nut case conjures up inside solely his own head hordes of humiliated "islamic fascism." The cartoon hordes
are really running around in his cranium. No doubt about that.
All the while he safely entertains himself so–what was that
death ratio in Gaza again? What diet are the Palestinians on, again? Who shat on their home floors?
chris needs some lithium. I suggest he get his blood checked out
to make sure he gets a strong enough dose.
And:
"This cosmic humiliation, the thought that the Jews are stronger, smarter, and just better than they drives them crazy. Crazy enough to commit suicide in the hopes of killing one Jew."
OK, chris, we get it. You can instantly read the minds and hearts
of 400 million humans. They're all out to get you and yours. They're jealous. Nothing more to it.
The cosmos of lower life is out to get you simply because you are
its superior.
You hear their voices too?
learn HTML
It is certain that Citizen doesn't hear them, or ignors them.
You're the one who just claimed the Jews are superior. I stated that the Arabs are driven crazy by the humiliation caused by them thinking the Jews are superior just because they can't beat 5.5 million Jews off a speck of land that the Arabs consider to be Sacred Islamic Soul. They can't stand the fact that Allah has not helped them reclaim the land. They can not understand why there are so many Jewish nobel prize winner, pulitzer winners, why the Jews seem to excel in every single human endeavor. And why they don't.
Yes, Claude.Grass has it right. Destroying your logic is like shooting fish in a barrel.
"The discussion is morality trumping national interest."
No, it is not. It is about putting to the lie the notion that Israel, which has consistently refused to make peace with its neighbors, continues to occupy, ethnically cleanse, and colonize land that does not belong to them, and whose extremist Zionist supporters in the United States incessantly break American law to involuntarily involve a mostly unwitting American public in a conflict in which we have no national interest in who wins or loses, is worth supporting on moral grounds alone. Israel used to be, but is not any longer.
"Greengrass, citizen, american, eva, rowan, martin, colin, littlehorn, weiss and his ilk sacrifice morality for an easy life."
I have no problem with an moral component to American foreign policy, as long as and only as long as, the American public are fully informed of the costs and consequences of a particular policy, e.g. subsidization of Israeli colonization, and support it anyway. Otherwise, cold-blooded realism and self-interest should be the order of the day. Is Israeli foreign policy any different?
Israel is not just not a strategic asset, its behavior has turned it into a grave liability. It is possible for Israel to change its behavior such that a combination of moral and strategic arguments could be made that our continued support is justified, but this won't happen while colonization continues. Rein in your religious lunatics while you still can.
is this Chris Berel the same dude as Suzanne?
Really; WHY do you engage in conversation with these idiots? Their arguments crash on themselves. It's ridiculous to read him say:
c. b. says "Iran does have a tin cup. Severe economic unrest. Citizenship revolt over years of funding terrorism at the exspense of the well being of the people."
HUH? How did I miss that???
c. b. says "This cosmic humiliation, the thought that the Jews are stronger, smarter, and just better than they drives them [Arabs] crazy."
HUH? Is there a universal consensus on "Jewish" superiority? I thought this language belonged to Nazi Germans!
In their Hasbara, the superior Jews take pleasure in provoking your anger, and in distracting you from what they are actually doing. I think, instead of spending time arguing and proving them as hypocrites that they are, we need to be busy digging up facts to expose the truth of what Israel's being built on.
And particularly drive their attention to "UNREST" and UPROAR amongst the good Jewish people of the world: "Not in our name" they are yelling!
I should modify the last paragraph of my last post.
It was possible for Israel to change its behavior …., but now it is too late. … You failed to rein in your religious lunatics while you still [could]. Maybe it will still be possible for Jews to live in the Holy Land after the current state of Israel is gone, but time is running out for convincing your neighbors that it is safe for them to have you as neighbors, under any government. If this sounds presumptuous, consider that American support will not last forever, and if colonization continues, global embargo won't be far behind. You've pissed a lot of people off, and have few friends left. You can blame it all on antisemitism if you want. It might make you feel better, but it won't change reality. Apologies to former President Clinton, it's the colonies stupid, it's the colonies stupid, it's the colonies stupid.
chris berel: there is nothing showing that WWI would not have occured.
There is actually a huge debate about this, centering around Wilhelm II. I am no historian, so my mental loci are not that elaborate in this field. The many times I came across one or the opposing argument are not as coherently ordered and retrievable as they would need to be.
But even the English Wikipedia shows traces for the hesitant emporor argument. He was very aware of the danger scenario.
It's very important to see the context.
Kaiser Wilhelm II between the portrait of the weak tool or the ultimate devil, that should be confronted in court by the victors both serve their own ideologies.
Poor Colin Murray. Destined to spin his little story into oblivion. American support will last long after little colin and his insignificant great crandshildren are little but soil.
Pissed a lot of people off? I heard Jesus, who ever he was, did the same. So did Stalin, Carter, Gandhi, Mohammed, Nasser, Lincoln, Tutu, France, England, China, so on and so forth.
Few friends left? Morality requires friends? I heard Hitler had lots of friends.
It's you, stupid.
Chris, hubris in Greek tragedy is the road to doom. We are all ideological actors, acting out our basic creeds. As "Morality" is a problematic term. Give me one actor who doesn't consider his creed beyond the morality of whatever Other.
As far as this actor is concerned the "crazy humiliated Arabs" is only the Janus face of the hubris on the other side. As it is psychologically stupid.
FROM CHRIS BEREL, ABOVE: "It may have been in out national interest to side with Nazi Germany. But most moral nations put aside national interest to do the right thing."
FROM ME:
Shamir proposes an alliance with the Nazis
“As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak
Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun (NMO)…[Their proposal stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German nation of power in the Near East… The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany’s side’….The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI’s military power ‘negligable.’ ” Allan Brownfield, “The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs”, July/August 1998.
SOURCE: "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" – Third Edition
(PUBLISHED BY JEWS FOR JUSTICE IN THE MIDDLE EAST)
PDF DOWNLOAD – link to cactus48.com
HTML VIEW – link to cactus48.com
RE: "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" – Third Edition
MY BAD!
CORRECT HTML VIEW – link to cactus48.com
I wonder why Dicky is spamming this blog.
LOL, Chris. I wasn't calling you stupid personally. I took license with James Carville's (a Clinton political operative, I have misattributed it to former President Clinton) "It's the economy stupid, it's the economy stupid"
"180 rule" strikes again.
The berel-bot spams as he makes the spam accusation against another.
The dif is that dickersons pieces are worth reading and appreciated.
The berel-bot is "appreciated" in an entirely different way. He shows the true colors of hardcore Zionism and the emptiness of that particular philosophy.
Heckuva job, berel-bot!
Mission accomplished!
~
Berel: "It may have been in out national interest to side with Nazi Germany. But most moral nations put aside national interest to do the right thing."
Idiot. We declared war with Japan. Japan and Germany had a treaty. That's why we went to war with Germany.
The handful of powerful Zionists surrounding FDR wanted war with Germany. FDR could not justify it. The American people were dead sent against it. Then Pearl Harbour happened. The US declared war against Japan. The US had no option but to declare war with Germany as a result of the treaty. Morality and Nazism did not figure into it at all.
Dickerson, the correct HTML is:
link to cactus48.com
/>