John Mearsheimer has a strong piece in the latest Atlantic Monthly about Chas Freeman and the Israel lobby. Oh wait, sorry-- the piece is in the London Review of Books. Gosh. How can I make such mistakes? Titled, "The Lobby Falters," the piece is very good about the role of the internet in the saga. And this excerpt begins with a belief I share: once we get a real debate about Israel, the party's over. Mearsheimer:
An even more important reason for the lobby to drive Freeman out of his job is the weakness of the case for America’s present policy towards Israel, which makes it imperative to silence or marginalise anyone who criticises the special relationship. If Freeman hadn’t been punished, others would see that one could talk critically about Israel and still have a successful career in Washington. And once you get an open and free-wheeling discussion about Israel, the special relationship will be in serious trouble.
One of the most remarkable aspects of the Freeman affair was that the mainstream media paid it little attention – the New York Times, for example, did not run a single story dealing with Freeman until the day after he stepped down – while a fierce battle over the appointment took place in the blogosphere. Freeman’s opponents used the internet to their advantage; that is where Rosen launched the campaign. But something happened there that would never have happened in the mainstream media: the lobby faced real opposition. Indeed, a vigorous, well-informed and highly regarded array of bloggers defended Freeman at every turn and would probably have carried the day had Congress not tipped the scales against them. In short, the internet enabled a serious debate in the United States about an issue involving Israel. The lobby has never had much trouble keeping the New York Times and the Washington Post in line, but it has few ways to silence critics on the internet.
...Freeman’s remarkable statement [on stepping down] has shot all around the world and been read by countless individuals. This isn’t good for the lobby, which would have preferred to kill Freeman’s appointment without leaving any fingerprints. But Freeman will continue to speak out about Israel and the lobby, and maybe some of his natural allies inside the Beltway will eventually join him. Slowly but steadily, space is being opened up in the United States to talk honestly about Israel.
Interesting to reflect that a few years ago, when, say, the right wing blogosphere got Dan Rather out at CBS over his (meaningless) credulity on the Bush National Guard story, it was the blogosphere making noise that finally got picked up by the mainstream media. Now, as Mearsheimer shows, important people are following important stories on the internet. Better shine my shoes.
The US-Israel relationship is over for the US public.
Congress however is another matter and I fully expect congress will burn America and Americans to the ground in Israel's behalf.
But it's going to be over anyway,not only because Israel's insanity with Palestine and Iran will sink the US, but Israel is so deep into US pockets that their ponzi scheme can't last much longer in this global meltdown. Their continued costly billion dollar a year occupation of Palestine plus their assorted other agressions in the neighborhood not to mention any attack on Iran they may make…and added to what the US already owes our own debt holders we will be on the hook for billions in defaulted Israeli goverment bonds the US guaranted.
I just noticed that Israel is issuing more Israeli bonds husing the billions they have left of the last 10 billion in loan guarantees the US gave them. Standard and Poor has rated them A because they are US guarenteed..without a US backed guarantee the Israeli bonds could not be sold or could only be given a "D" high risk rating and would have to have a higher interest rate and shorter term. It's a neat trick as tricks go…borrow 10 billion from the US at a next to nothing rate and package it as bonds with interest higher than buyers of US treasuries can get on T-bills, taking away buyers from American T-bills and make money on the spread and then if you do defaut so what..the US has to pay off your debt to your bond buyers.
Even of we get our feet half way back under us the US congress will undermine any recovery and push us further into Israel's wars and aid by financing the Israeli economy and paying off their debts.
It's really hard to even comment sanely on Israel because the corruption of our congress and politicans and what they have done to us for Israel,some of them becuase they are jews and others for campaign money..is just so beyond all sanity and understanding of loyalty and duty to this country it's hardly believable…but there it is. And that's exactly what it is. That is exactly what our politicans have done to the country and to us…for jewish campaign money and Israel.
I heard Dodd and several others bemoaning the physical threats some of the WS crooks are getting,saying how terrible it was. Well it isn't terrible really..there comes a time when you have exhausted all other possible avenues of change or redress for justice, when criminals make and own the law and there's nothing left to try or do but start the hangings. As Jefferson said the tree of liberty has to be refreshed with the blood of patriots…or in this case the blood of the traitors in congress.
If I woke up tomorrow to learn than OBL's ghost had nuked capitol hill I would actually be much more encouraged about America rebuilding itself afterward than I am knowing that we still have mostly the same congress that put America where it is now.
Andonce you get an open and free-wheeling discussion about Israel, the special relationship will be in serious trouble.
The only real response to this, is to plead for pity. "Why all the Israel focus?"
Oh, the global effects of the 'special relationship' and the detriment it places on the US, perhaps.
The special relationship between US and England is not over, and it shouldn't be. The special relationship between US and Canada is not over, and it shouldn't be. The special relationship between the US and Israel is not over, and it shouldn't be.
We SHOULD recognize the special relationships that we have, and if we are to criticize specific TERMS of those relationships, limit our criticism to that, and not extend into either CYNICAL versions of "realism", or into RACIST versions of rejection.
I have a special relationship with my personal friends. I might get tiffed at an incident, but I DON'T propose to "divide families" or "sever friendships" on the basis of a tiff, or a difference in political opinion.
Our special human connection is comprised of MUCH MORE than that.
The special relationship between US and England is not over
Terrible analogy. Look at Phils posts on the central fund and compare that to how US groups were financing the IRA.
Unlike the Neocons, whos centrality of a Likud vision of the Middle East shapes their worldview – Unlike the powerful pro-Israeli lobbying groups – unlike the congresspeople who labor to keep men like Freeman out of the public discourse and intelligence positions – unlike the banned speakers like Judt, Mearsheimer, and Walt.. etc..
This list can go on for a while, Witty. The relationship with the US and England is much, much different. You tell me if there could ever exist the possibility that the majority of US funding of an adversary of Israel could ever exist in the US without a pro Israeli group killing it? You know, like how the US groups were funding the IRA.
Our 'special' relationships with Britain and Canada do not involve financial and political subsidization of occupation, ethnic cleansing, and colonization. A real friend wouldn't ask a friend to pay for that.
We were real friends of Great Britain when it was doing that on a MUCH MUCH larger scale. Even the Arabists in the state department were undertaking to facilitate favorable US corporate contracts for phases of the petroleum supply chain, and STILL do.
Great Britain's occupation of the Falkland Islands, for which they fought an actual war over a decade ago, is of larger physical territory than the West Bank, much less people though.
My special relationship with my uncle doesn't end just because he grows orchids on some of his neighbor's land without their permission.
SPECIFIC is the point. You want to make change, or do you want Israel to bash?
The relationship between the US and Israel is hardly over.
The hate goons here have no life off the internet and the internet HAS become their reality. Sad for them, lucky for Israel and the US. :-)
were undertaking to facilitate favorable US corporate contracts for phases of the petroleum supply chain, and STILL do.
Was waiting for you to say this.
Recall when AIPAC and Bronfman pushed for the Iran sanctions in the mid 1990s?
Turns out, thanks to an AIPAC paper, the U.S. administration learned to its embarrassment that U.S. oil companies were Iran's biggest customers by far. AIPAC and Bronfman killed it.
Best of all, it really pissed off Britain and Canada.
Your analogy sucks, Witty. You can't even begin to address the points I made above. Worse still, you have to revert to
or do you want Israel to bash? even when you've seen this lengthy (and still abbreviated) post.
Keep trying to wish away criticism as "bashing," Witty. The concerns are laid out for you and you can't address them while still claiming "bashing."
The Falkland Islanders wanted to remain under England's jurisdiction, and they made it known loudly.
Arabs own, owned vast oil resources.
How about if your uncle was starving those neighbors continually in every way he could, and using your
gun to shoot a bunch of them from time to time? Getting replacement ammo from you?
You want to make change, Witty, or just allow the current status quo, while pretending to say otherwise?
hate goons
you mean, like, shaved heads and tattoos, Suzy?
@ Richard, "…The special relationship between the US and Israel is not over, and it shouldn't be."
Special relationships and so-called dual loyalties take the form of a continuum, they cover a wide spectrum, varying from the mutually beneficial type to one-sided or mutual exploitation.
Israel's special relationships with many western countries are often seen as being at the more unhealthy end of the spread of possibilities. The problems have been documented ad nauseum on blogs like this. Specific issues such as financial support, indoctrination, information "sharing", undue influence over policy, stifling debate by smearing critics, not to mention a culture of impunity and callous disregard for the lives of their neighbours need to be addressed.
The "special relationship" is showing signs of malignancy, consuming goodwill and truth and justice and prestige and diginity, all fuel for an insatiable monster.
The sooner we can get it adjusted, the greater is the chance of the relationship surviving.
Thanks to people like Phil and Joachim and many others, there is now a forum where these issues can be aired without the usual gagging forces that operate on some of the other media.
moonkoon says…
no wonder israel and its supporters are unhealthy, is it? …they've exploited the holocaust to the point they're exempt from criticism, and now they're like little kids turned loose in a candy store without supervision.
not to mention the fact that they've been breeding for paranoia for a few generations now… paranoia comes from guilt… we can only guess where the guilt comes from.
I'm with Witty. We can have a special relationship with Israel. But right now that relationship requires tough love. Likud's racism, ethnic cleansing, expansionism, disrespect for international institutions, war crimes all need to be confronted, criticized and corrected. The Israel Lobby's deceit, bullying and intimidation need to end. The Neocons need to be held accountable for their own war crimes and deceit.
But, as Israel's friend, we need to look into the heart of the Israelis, and realize they live in fear. As its friend, we need to reestablish ourselves as honest broker in the region, use that to engineer a lasting peace, that will protect Israel, and unleash economic development throughout the region.
It's like we have to send our dear friend off to rehab, help them change their behavior through twelve steps, while reassuring them they are not alone in the world, there is life without domination and deceit. And it all begins with honest debate, and general rejection both of the Anti-Semites, and those who try to smear honest critics as such.
My special relationship with my uncle doesn't end just because he grows orchids on some of his neighbor's land without their permission.
The depths of depravity never cease to amaze.
Richard equates an uncle's overstretched orchid garden with a brutal, illegal occupation of an indigenous human population, carried out with the clear intent, as articulated time and again by the occupiers, of ethnically cleansing the entire area, to make way for "Eretz Israel".
Richard, if I noticed you were intentionally planting aggressive and invasive plants on your neighbor's land, plants which were spreading and consuming his own, and which I heard your neighbor ask you repeatedly to stop and desist, and which you angrily refused, I would certainly call you on that.
Further, if you told me that you not only do not intend to stop and pull back the plants, but in fact you are engaging in this activity intentionally in order to attempt to pacify your neighbor and make him leave, well I would I have to seriously reconsider our "special friendship".
Finally, if I did a little honest research, and came to find out that your "neighbor" only a few years ago in fact inhabited the majority of the land you now claim as your own…well, "special friend", I can no longer in good conscience choose to associate with you, and I certainly won't be supporting you in any measure.
doppler says…
…and guilt.
how are the israelis gonna purge that guilt?
what if the israel project is based on values that are incompatible with jewish morals?
or will jews be required to abandon their morals in defense of israel, as mr. dror suggests?
mr dror's the founder of the JPPPI, and now the chairman of the JPPPI has been appointed special envoy to the middle east… what kind of signal is that sending to, for instance, iran?
apparently it's impossible to talk about dror, ross and the JPPPI on mondoweiss.
why is that?
i'll try again
.
doppler says…
…and guilt.
how are the israelis gonna purge that guilt?
what if the israel project is based on values that are incompatible with jewish morals?
or will jews be required to abandon their morals in defense of israel, as mr. dror suggests?
mr dror's the founder of the JPPPI, and now the chairman of the JPPPI has been appointed special envoy to the middle east… what kind of signal is that sending to, for instance, iran?
I just got off the hook with my brother who lives in a rural area on the border of PA & NY. He is a big fish in a small pond there, and has lived there many decades; his job as a municipal attorney gets him around in every way. He tells me that the homies there (nearly all white, of German background) know nothing but
white guilt over the Holocaust, Israel is our special friend, and Arabs are sand-n–rs. These are God & country with guns people, the kind most urbane jews, if not all jews, would not want as a neighbor. I'd say they are perfect sheeple, even as they pride themselves on being not so. My brother also thinks from his knowledge of the locals, and the totally individually selfish character of the most recent generations, that they don't care if we, e.g., get in a war against Iran, which might turn into WW3. He figures they could care less, and even if this ultimately resulted in a draft, they would not go along with it. The POV is that the current US Military is nothing but a Hessian Army, another job, somewhere between flipping burgers and construction work, and at the higher end, say, being a carpenter. Having visited him over the years, I think his observations are correct. Just passing along the information.
"The hate goons here have no life off the internet and the internet HAS become their reality"
Suzanne Witty
Hey Suzanne, would you call what just happened with the Temple denying the use of their hall to the settlers club "on the internet"
Sure looks like real life to me.
And there's another thing I keep track of, Suzy Q. Ever notice how the posters either disavowing, abjuring or de-bunking the Hasbara are an ever-changing, ever increasing bunch, and those supporting Zionism the same old people, day after day? Why is that, Suzanne Witty? Why is that?
Also, I said, what if you asked them, " What did the Palestinians have to do with the Holocaust?"
He ridiculed my question, directly implying I was very naive. "What? You think they give a sh-t about
the Palestinians? They know zero about them, absolutely zero. Quit pulling my leg! They could care less about them. I told you, sand nig–ers. That's the only thing that might come to their mind." More likely, they won't even answer such a question. Not worthy of a single thought."
My brother than commenced to tell me about his kitty friends. He has three cats, all stay inside. Outside,
seven more roam his land (nice stretch, surrounded by corn fields on three sides; you can shoot empty gallon milk jugs there, no problem–with a nice array of antique military weapons), crossing the small town street in front to entertain themselves in neighbor's land. He feeds the outside cats. There's the
head cat and his wife, MIssy, with two little kittens, peanut & popcorn, a couple others, and a real skunk–when he's around all the outside cats' tails grown hard like a baseball bat & there's lots of puffing, hissing, etc. The outside are free, ferel, roam wide, but of course they get pretty cold in winter,
while inside his 3 regulars are more confined but can nestle up to his wood-burning fireplace, etc. "I'm the government," my Bro says.
Civilization & Its Discontents, in a nutshell, nicht wahr?
PS: As we were talking he described one of the outside males humping a female in the middle of the
road; it's nearing spring, he says, and the girl cats all play cutsy, and stick their rears up, and the males,
heavy balled, prance around to entice them….
Yakking about Skunk, who lives in my brother's back yard, somewhere amongst his dozen old cars (all working shape), he says the kitties might bluster and puff, but they keep clear of him. So I said, yeah,
a cat wouldn't run after a truck….
"But, as Israel's friend, we need to look into the heart of the Israelis, and realize they live in fear."
How they indoctrinate their children is their affair. They would indoctrinate them with fear no matter what we do, it is absolutely necessary in a colonial-settler state.
So, these Israelis, are they great warrior heroes, or little children fearing the boogy-man? They have to grow up. If I can live with the anti-Semitism in the US, they can find a way. And the US is rife with anti-semitism, I tell you! Ask any Zionist!
The problem is that Suzanne knows all that you say is true – but she's valiantly fighting for Israel's existence in her head.
In her head it isn't something that those who aren't truly 'jewish' will ever understand. And Mooser – for her you ain't jewish either.
Because in her head the 'jewish' people will always be fighting against a world that hates them – and doesn't understand and will never appreciate the beautiful and pure link between the the 'jewish' soul and the land of Isra…Palestine.
"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
Famous words of the famous nazi pervert david ben gurion.
yeah.
great friends of the jews, these israelis! Great defenders of jewish children!
Riff raff!
Sewage!
I'll tell you what, Suzanne: if you want to get me on your side, defending Israeli youth against all comers, then all you have to do is, get hold of someone with some connections in the Israeli music industry, and make them put a video on YouTube of Vaadat Kishut doing "Hardcore Tel Aviv":
link to gutzy.com
/>
Then I shall put it on my blog, and everyone will see it and fall in love with them straight away. OK?
In the meantime they can watch the trailer for Liz Nord's "Jericho's Echo: Punk Rock In The Holy Land":
link to youtube.com
/>
which is only 2 mins 1 sec, and very good.
Now don't say I don't try to help and be constructive…
p.s. it's my 58th birthday today, so don't call me immature.
Suzanne: "The hate goons here have no life off the internet and the internet HAS become their reality. Sad for them, lucky for Israel and the US."
We "hate goons" are defending America. But you are weakening and demoralizing it by giving the interests of a foreign country priority over that of America. Why don't you defend America for a change? (And don't insult us here by saying it's good for America to put Israel first.)
@RW
You wrote:
"The special relationship between the US and Israel is not over, and it shouldn't be".
The special relationships with UK and Canada are built on mutual respect,understanding and benefit. US' special relationship with Israel is built on religious fundamentalism ,parasitism and bullying. It is not the relationship per se. that needs an ending, but its very nature. Fact is , US can no longer afford the military, political and economical burden of its unrestricted support of Israels misguided colonial enterprise.