Tonight ABC World News did a piece on the revelations in Haaretz that Israeli soldiers deliberately killed Palestinian civilians during the assault on Gaza, apparently with rabbinical encouragement. The piece featured a member of Shovrimshtika.org– Breaking the Silence– the great Israeli veterans' group that changed my life. This is a landmark moment because never before has Breaking the Silence been on network TV, that I can remember. Also because the Israelis came across as the Korean army or something, some tinpot army. When IDF chief of staff Gabi Ashkenazi says we have the most moral army in the world, he seemed faintly thuggish. So this is the paradigm shift– occuring in the nation's living rooms at last.
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Phil, you yave a very short memory. Don't you remember everyone was saying the same thing during the 1982 Lebanon War? e.g. "What has happened to Israel's soul?"… that sort of thing. No paradigm shift here. Israel got over that one, in fact Israel is more popular in the US now than it was then, so Israel will get over this one. Too bad for you. Americans know very well what the Palestinian are like and their support for terrorism and the meaning of their "democratic election" of a rejection terrorist group like HAMAS means. That is why AFTER the recent war, something like 70% of Americans support Israel and 17% support the Palestinians.
You have also apparently forgot that the Palestinian openly carry out attacks on civilians as a matter of policy and revel in butchering civilians (e.g. the street celebrations held by the Palestinians after attacks are carried out in Israel). Interesting how you ignore the effect of that on the average American viewer.
"Paradigm shift", huh?
OMG paradigm shift!
Seriously, Bar Kochba's got it right. Also, just wait for the next (inevitable) Palestinian attack/suicide bomb and this "Gaza civilian atrocity" hoopla will fade just like those other convenient pieces of fiction, "the Jenin massacre" and "the murder of Muhammad al-Dura."
bar_kochba132, methinks thou doth protest too much. We know more today about what has been happening over there. Once you are aware of that, there is no way that you can go on with your life doing nothing, especially knowing full well that just by being a citizen of a state that supports Israel, you have automatically become an accomplice to the atrocities perpetrated by the latter in the Occupied Territories. It has an extremely destructive effect on one's soul. I can't see many people remaining silent from now on.
bar_kochba132 has a point though, the New Nazies might set up another improved PR firm like Camera or MEMRI to tackle the media and growing condemnation against their aggressive nature.
Well, I think it supports a "Congratulations, Phil!"
bar_kockba132: It often takes repeated activity to establish or change attitudes (like habits.) I'm going to stick with Phil's optimism, because I do want to believe. The alternative is troublesome, for Israel as well as for all of us.
Deny legitimacy to HAMAS absent proof of election fraud (please don't bother at this late date to float the theory) and you deny legitimacy to the democratic process. Which leaves everyone at "Everything sucks." You don't want to do that, IMO.
Criminently, bk#: "Palestinians … revel in butchering civilians." What then was Operation Cast Lead all about, if the Israeli mortality rate increases 10-20 over several years, while Palestinian death rates go up thousands each year? Butchering civilians? Where is the disconnect between Israel's actions and your condemnation of violence?
Margaret-
Interesting that you forgot the Palestinian suicide bomber war that claimed something like 1300 Israeli lives with thousands more wounded. A lot more than the "10-20" you are talking about.
Israel is viewed as an ally and a country with shared values by the large majority of Americans. The Palestinians are viewed as being allied to countries opposed to American values like Syria, Iran, Sudan, etc. For a "paradigm shift" to occur, this perception would have to change. How are you going to get Americans to identify with disfunctional Arab societies who despise the US and its democracy and values and say so quite openly? You "progressives" with your infatuation with Third-world dictatorships and quasi-Marxist "revolutionary movements" are a minority of the American population.
An actual deposition by any eyewitness member of the IDF would be enough to open an official prosecution with the Investigative Military Police. However, initial inquiries seem to indicate that both cases concerned soldiers who repeated rumors that they heard from other soldiers, and in one the sniper in question confirmed that he fired warning shots which did not strike the alleged victims at all. There isn't even evidence of a crime, like bodies, let alone the elements of a crime or mens rea. Less than nothing. Not even smoke and mirrors.
There has not been 1300 Israeli's killed by Palestinians suicide bombers. The B'Tselem site tracks all such deaths.
Only 490 Israeli's have been killed at all in the intifada.
Marilyn-
"Only" 490, huh? Actually, I think that number is low regarding the casualties since Arafat began the terror war in October 2000. However, I think the number I quoted counts the casualties since the first use of suicide bombings which came shortly after the Oslo Agreements were signed in 1993.
In any event, if 490 is nothing to get excited about, as you indicate, so that if Israel indeed killed a similar number of civilians in the Gaza War (I am not saying that is the case or not, I don't know) then I don't understand why you get so upset with that on the Palestinian side.
More Palestinian children have been killed than the total number of all Israeli civilians.
No comparison. Israel kills far more innocent people.
Palestinian resistance tactics employs the use of terror. But none of the resistance groups were terrorists.
@ bar_kochba132 | March 27, 2009 at 02:01 AM
Israel is viewed as an ally and a country with shared values by the large majority of Americans. The Palestinians are viewed as being allied to countries opposed to American values like Syria, Iran, Sudan, etc. For a "paradigm shift" to occur, this perception would have to change. How are you going to get Americans to identify with disfunctional Arab societies who despise the US and its democracy and values and say so quite openly? You "progressives" with your infatuation with Third-world dictatorships and quasi-Marxist "revolutionary movements" are a minority of the American population.
Public support for Israel is decreasing. It is as foolish to quantify it with some 70 to 17 score based on a handful of questions carefully crafted to elicit the desired response as it is to attempt to describe a non-linear physical process with merely a mean. Reality is more complex. Two processes are occurring that are not estimated in these simpleton polls: the rate of decrease in support of Israel both as a proportion of population and in its 'depth', i.e. its intensity.
It has not escaped my notice that you completely neglect to account for what I think is the most quickly growing American demographic, of which I am a member: those who want America to put American interests first. This is not about choosing sides in a foreign conflict. We Americans don't have to 'identify' with Palestinians to side against foreign ethnic cleansers and colonists. It is the threat to America that colonial Zionism represents that is waking up middle America. Please continue to wallow in your silly fantasy that we are all leftists who are "infatuated with Third-world dictatorships and quasi-Marxist revolutionary movements".
@ bar_kochba132
The poll results you talk about means only that the average American has long been ignorant of the I-P details while simultaneously being subjected to one-sided Likud-style propaganda by the MSM; as someone suggested earlier on this blog they are only beginning to go online for less filtered news since when one has no job one has more time. Further, GAZA made quite a splash, enough to be mentioned
once in awhile while watching NASCAR or other sports on TV.
Polls like you mention ask generic questions begging for details, details such as provided by the network news show Phil mentions in his short article.
"Don't you remember everyone was saying the same thing during the 1982 Lebanon War? e.g. "What has happened to Israel's soul?"… that sort of thing. No paradigm shift here. Israel got over that one…"
Well, good for Israel's soul.
Gonna get increasingly harder for average Americans to allow such goodness at their expense.
I missed one sentence in my last post that is worth the trouble to insert post-post.
… This is not about choosing sides in a foreign conflict. It is about NOT choosing sides in a foreign conflict. We Americans don't have to 'identify' with Palestinians to side against foreign ethnic cleansers and colonists. …
I don't think bar_kochba132 is familiar with the saying "whistling thru the graveyard" or he wouldn't give his desperation away quite so obviously.
If there is one most notable thing about the American public it is that they can turn on a dime, turn heros into zeros in a NY minute…we are fickle, we ignore much unless it impacts us personally and yet when some new idea or outrage pops up on our radar screen we are all over it… and that is what is happening in opinions of Israel. The public has been leaning that way since Lebanon 2 years ago and this year Gaza pushed them over the edge.
The Univ. of Maryland World Opinion poll is the gold standard,poll of all polls. The only poll that is recongized by experts as accurate, non partisan, non slanted by any ideology or political agenda. In short the only one the "very serious people' take seriously.
The Univ of Maryland poll showed a lot but in particular the results for America on Israel, even before Gaza, showed that 71% of the American public wanted the US to take an "even handed stand" on I-P.
When they do their next one I expect it will show a more overtly disapproving attitude toward Israel due to Gaza and the breakthru of blogs like this and the work of public figures like Carter, W&M, Tutu, Freeman, Joe Kline, Cohen and etc. in exposing the truth.
I don't have any attachment to Israel and whatever sympathy I had orginially has evaporated over the past 6 or 7 years so it doesn't much matter to me what happens to Israel as a state. My concerns, like most Americans are first, the injustice of I-P and the out of proportion suffering Israel causes a mostly defenseless people and second, my country's political corruption that enables the US-Isr relationship and I-P conflict and what it has done to our reputation in the world.
BUT..if I were a zionist and dedicated to Israel I would be standing on the brakes and doing everything I could to change Israel's policies and attitude. The last thing I would be doing is using the bar_kochba132, Suzanna, witty, and etc approach to further piss off the public that is following this issue and convince even more of us that the zionist and Israel are indeed immoral and insane with more nonsensical spin,lies and justifications for unjustifiable.
BECAUSE…Israel will be brought down if it continues doing what it is doing. And that is not a wish on my part, that is just the obvious and inevitable outcome.
The militant zionist would do well to study the comments here and pay attention to what is really being said in all the yada, yada flame wars going on that shows 2 of the issues with Israel most on American's minds…here is an example in three sentences that covers it:
"for what I think is the most quickly growing American demographic, of which I am a member: those who want America to put American interests first. This is not about choosing sides in a foreign conflict.
We Americans don't have to 'identify' with Palestinians to side against foreign ethnic cleansers and colonists."
Posted by: Colin Murray
The comments of others save me the need to refer to important issues regarding iniquity and profit. I would emphasize the issue of democracy, which those who support Israel's policies prefer not to discuss. This likely is the divide over which Israel will fall from favor with the US; it is the vulnerability most obvious to me and that vulnerability is emphasized by your disdain toward the issue.
Characterizing violence as 'proper' because within the laws of war is specious, but it allows Israel to continue to regard itself right in it's actions and anyone else wrong who disagrees. Doing so is of no benefit to Israel; the inability to recognize or acknowledge this is an Achilles heel. IMO, bk and Eurosabra, Israel's doom is held within your words and your intransigent attitude.
Margaret, in the first place, John McCain and co. have demonstrated repeatedly that 'democracy' simply means 'capitalism'. I don't see Obama disagreeing with that analysis. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether 'Israel falls from favor with the US'. The US is heading straight over the cliff of national bankruptcy, and the new world power will be China, with Jews managing its external finance. The IMF and World Bank are already re-gearing for this, getting ready to dump the dollar as supposed 'world reserve currency'.
Bar Kochba and Shirazi, STFU! Filthy apologists for these atrocities, you're the scum of the earth. In light of your assertions(and I put the emphasis on the "ass") I see that the shaheedis are more than justified in their actions. Kill us and we'll kill you. Not a pretty statement, but you think that we're just going to lay around and let you shoot us for sport? You started this war by occupying our lands and cleansing us from them, now you must pay the price of every occupier. We are NOT terrorists. We are resistors.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I'm more than pretty sure that the British referred to the American revolutionaries as "terrorists" more than their fair share of times. And I'm pretty sure that they spun the media to make the world think that too. But they are the heroes of that nation, and are idolized in American history books and folk songs.
See the similarity? My people are fighters for freedom, and as that cheesy pro-military American saying puts it, "freedom isn't free".
I for one watched–AND TAPED–the segment, and I thought it was a landmark action by ABC News to come out and be honest.
Maybe if more news networks did the same Americans would pull support for this war-criminal corporation known as Eretz Israel, Inc. and shitheads like Shirazi and Bar Kochba132 wouldn't have a leg to stand on or a pot to piss in.
And what do you mean by "meaning of their "democratic election" of a rejection terrorist group like HAMAS"?
Your people elected a psychotic paranoid racist into power. And what's this about HAMAS rejecting you? YOU REJECT US!!! Stop being the pot calling the kettle black and shut up already.
"Americans know very well what the Palestinian are like"
Owners of small businesses, hard-working, younger, better educated, college graduates, less likely to be incarcerated, less likely to have unwed mothers or teen mothers, less likely to be on WELFARE Palestinians.
Yes they know us quite well.
"That is why AFTER the recent war, something like 70% of Americans support Israel and 17% support the Palestinians."
So 17% of Americans are enlightened. That's 17% less income to your dirty corporation!
"What has happened to Israel's soul?"… that sort of thing. No paradigm shift here."
You're right, here. Israel has no soul.
Not to worry too much Zainab al-Ashkar, ever more normal Americans (looking for a job and how to hold onto their home, etc) see what you see. Our problem is how to get our POV effective to the whore congress we elect each year as democracy is effectively diverted here by them.
I think things have changed, Rowan. I'm going to link to a comment elsewhere, explaining why I think that. There is more pending to be posted, but the basics are there.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/levi9909/2847234033073541664/?src=hsn
The Jews sans frontieres post is here: link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Although it's worth going to the current page in full: JSF, shining forth out of the UK, always has significant information, useful for supplementing the US perspective, which Mondoweiss devotes so much effort to presenting.
http://www.jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/
Margaret, as I have already said several times, Elf and co. consider me to be an 'anti-Semite' and banned me very quickly from posting there, several years ago, so why the hell should I read them?
In fact, given their arrogance, propensity to groupthink, and persecutory bent, I feel sure they would say that they "outed" me as an 'anti-Semite'.
Sorry, Rowan, I wasn't around to read about your contretemps with JSF. I'm still developing an understanding of how to use the 'Net, comment boards, etc. -which includes my computer- and so am not facile at adding in long comments such as I made on JSF, which took about as much space as already has been used here for comments.
We seem to have different tastes in blogs.