Yesterday we ran a report on Mads Gilbert’s lecture in Chicago on the Gaza onslaught. Gilbert was one of two Norwegian doctors to work at Shifa hospital in Gaza City for twelve days in January. I went to hear him at New York University yesterday afternoon and had these observations:
--An anesthesiologist, Gilbert served in Gaza out of solidarity with the Palestinians. He has been doing this kind of doctoring since he worked in Beirut in the 1982 invasion. He said the Palestinian doctors are excellent, but he was only trying to give them support and report to the world on what he saw.
--Hospital treatment for Palestinians reflects “structural apartheid." When an Israeli is badly injured he is airlifted to the best medical care to be found in the state. Modern hospitals are not available to Palestinians. Once when 17 medical vehicles formed a caravan to go to Egypt to get out difficult cases, having informed Israeli authorities, Israeli forces fired machine guns across their path telling them to turn back. They did.
--The pictures Gilbert showed were out of an inferno, literally. He said that he has never had such a traumatic experience in all his work on several continents. His pictures were haunting. Most were of maimed children he had treated, some were of maimed adults. Scorched limbs. A ghastly exit wound in a girl's back. Pulverizing injuries made, he suspects by Dense Inert Metal Explosives, which cause a horrific pressure wave over a 100 meter diameter but no further. Ghastly.
"I would call this a moral disaster for Israel."
--He did 15 to 20 interviews a day from the front of Shifa hospital, and they were as exhausting as the emergency work. He believes the Israelis jammed his phone when he was to go on CNN. He cried at night in the dorm room he was in. When he saw a child paralyzed by automatic weapons attack, a girl of four, he went to his friend, a Palestinian doctor, in anger and desperation, saying How can this go on? The doctor calmly explained to him, “We have no human rights. And that sums it up. They have no human rights.” It is difficult to argue with this statement in view of the overwhelming evidence provided of indifference to civilian casualties.
--During the Q-and-A, a man with a Russian accent tried to take Gilbert on. He said that Gilbert had said that 5 out of 10 Israeli soldiers killed during the onslaught were killed by friendly fire. Well: you are willing to accept in that instance that the killings are accidental. Why are you not willing to make the same concession in the case of Palestinian children killed when the IDF was taking on Hamas fighters? Gilbert responded that it was an issue of scale. If you say 200 children or 400 children, depending on the IDF or the Palestinians, what does it matter, that is indifference to civilian life. And 90 percent of the victims were civilians; that he saw for himself, he asserted.
--Gilbert said that the Israelis dropped 100 bombs in the first four minutes of the attack on December 27, 2008, and killed 260 people in those minutes. A week or so later Shimon Peres said that the operation had been 90 percent according to plan and that its purpose was to cause the Palestinian people to lose their appetite for firing rockets at Israel. This is collective punishment, Gilbert said, and a war crime. Israel does not understand that so long as there is one Palestinian left alive, he will resist the occupation.
--The other memorable member of the audience was Code Pink member Helen Schiff. She has been to Gaza and I believe she is Jewish. She has silver hair and seemed to cry even as she challenged her audience to speak out. “We have to influence our foreign policy. There is a huge opportunity right now. Even in the Jewish community. Once the Jewish community begins to split on this question… a sea change will take place.” And people who have been intimidated by the Jewish community by the suggestion that to criticize Israel is anti-Semitic will begin to speak out.
--Gilbert also addressed the Israel lobby issue. Many Jews are coming to his talks, he said, and he urged all Americans to speak out to move Obama. Nearly 50 years ago you had a president who had the courage to fly into a walled-off place, and say, I am a Berliner, in solidarity. "I wish Obama can fly into Gaza and say I am a Palestinian"
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Philip
This is a story of disbelief, terror and horror.
The dedicated life of Mads Gilbert to the needs of the suffering are exemplary.
We are in your debt for bringing us similar insights every day.
The commitment that you and Adam give to the intractable situation of Israel/Palestine and to the US situation is truly outstanding.
We are in your debt.
John,
I second your comments, and kudos to Phil and Adam. That said, I urge you to pop over to Dan Flescher's "Realistic Dove" to read what the hand-wringers have to say about Phil Weiss.
That's what we're up against.
PM
Paul Malfara
Thanks.
I went to "Realistic Dove", a site that I viewed once or twice, a now know why it grated me.
The usual suspects comment there and are I repetitive, unyielding, fixated, narrow and stifling.
There are other commentators on Mondoweiss that I suppose should moderate their language but for all that the input of Phil and Adam is prodigious and life affirming.
It is an effort to read Mondoweiss daily of the bloody mindedness and hard heartedness of Israeli zealots.
If I read again that slime word "antisemitism" slung at Phil by some of Realistic Dove people I will vomit.
Is that the only way to refute an idea, a discussion or a view?
By "up against", I hope you mean, "whose concerns must be addressed", not just the usual dismissal and retaliation.
Right and left.
Iran is a bigger issue today anyway.
Have you looked at Haaretz? Israel is saber-rattling. Iran is saber-rattling.
Gaza. Iran is next….
@ Witty
"By "up against", I hope you mean, "whose concerns must be addressed", not just the usual dismissal and retaliation"
Here also, it's a matter of scale. Just as Mr. Witty ignores that matter in terms of actual comparative physical death and destruction, he pretends in the same manner that the usual dismissal and retaliation comes from both sides equally in terms of quantity and quality, and
with equal funding.
If this was so and is so, Phil would never have been moved to set up and plug away on this
blog, Carter and M & W would never have written their books, J Street wouldn't finally have
been set up, etc.
Witty, Philip's blog post isn't about Iran. I don't think we should change the topic.
I was at Mads Gilbert's lecture last evening at Columbia University, a few hours after the NYU lecture. I was disappointed that the turnout wasn't bigger due to what I read on Mondoweiss about the turnout at U of Chicago. The NYU lecture earlier on in the day was publicized around the activist community; but not the Columbia lecture. Campus Anti-War Network had a listserv going around about him speaking at NYU, but the only info I heard about him at Columbia came from Phil's blog.
My family and I were actually talking to Helen Schiff after the event. [Phil, she told me you went to the NYU lecture and I silently wished I had gone so I could have run into you. We both think that your voice is strong within the activist community.] Once again, she called out the crowd to realize our voices in determining U.S. foreign policy regarding Israel. During the lecture, Mads said he would be interested in coming back to the city to make the presentation again if we provided him with a venue. I told Helen afterwards, that I truly thought we could get 200-300 people to come to a Dr. Gilbert presentation in the future if we organized it correctly. That is, if Campus Anti-War Network + Jews Say No (with the loveable Dorothy Zellner) + Code Pink organized it. She completely agreed. Phil/Adam, if Helen Schiff and I are able to organize something in the future [with Dr. Gilbert] would you announce it on the blog?
Aside from my excitement to organize with good hearted activists after the lecture, I was pretty heartbroken by the end of the lecture. The few photos that Dr. Gilbert was able to take were only a small picture of the awful sights he experienced working at Al-Shifa hospital during the “war”. Children literally got limbs ripped off by DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosives) while Israel was collectively punishing the civilian population in Gaza. He provided first hand testimony and strong evidence to support that Israel attacked civilian targets purposefully. After about 400 civilians had perished, Shimon Peres exclaimed that the operation had gone 90 percent according to plan. All those civilians’ casualties were part of the plan Shimon?
Mads Gilbert said that the doctors in the Gaza hospitals didn’t need him and his colleagues. He was there to provide solidarity and I believe he is a truly courageous person. His colleagues and he were the only European journalists reporting out of Gaza during the siege, because the IDF had blocked foreign reporters. Fox News called his testimony, terrorist proganda, (link to foxnews.com
so he must saying resembling truthfulness.
Thank you Dr. Gilbert.
(Phil let me know if you can give Helen and me a shout-out in the future about a Dr. Gilbert event if we need one.)
-Joel
And, we would never have attacked Iraq, the war of ideas come home to roost.
@ Witty
"Iran is a bigger issue today anyway.
Have you looked at Haaretz? Israel is saber-rattling. Iran is saber-rattling"
When's the last time Iran attacked another country, 240 years ago?
When Iran helped us in Afganistan after 9/11, and offered help otherwise, including putting brakes on
Hamas and Hezbollah, the response it got was to be named part of "the Axis Of Evil." A Bronx Cheer, a raspberry–berift of living Iran memory, e.g., the puppet regime of the Shah.
When Iran looks around its neighborhood, does it view itself as less vulnerable than Israel
views itself? Does it not see how N Korea's nuke ability protects it, that insurance policy
hardly a shadow of what Israel obtained on the sly?
Iran is a bigger issue today than settling the I-P conflict only in the mind of Likud, especially
Israel's new regime–Witty has already bought their new spiel, really an old one, PNAC's.
I heard the good doctor in the evening. I believe he said the DIME bombs had a 10 meter radius which makes them very precise. This is what makes Shimon Peres' statement that the action against Gaza was 90% successful so very damning because it means civilians WERE targeted.
Dr. Gilbert said the Palestinians are treated as the untermensch, they have no human rights. But it is becoming more and more clear that the true ubermensch are people like Dr. Gilbert and his Palestinian colleagues and that the true human spirit is being demonstrated by the Palestinian people.
As Rahm Immanuel says "never lose an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity." Attack on Iran would set its nuke program back for awhile and provide cover and rationale for Israel
to take a giant step to finish off the Palestinians, as a practical matter. All Israel needs to do
is keep Uncle Sam in full harness. Candy's old mushroom cloud will help keep the American little guys in line. A side benefit for Obama could be it's a proven stimulus package.
Witty is so fucking pathetic. He's in constant retreat. He HAS to equate this ongoing conflict whether it be between the Palestinians and the Israelis or Israel and Hamas or Iran and Israel.
Iran is not saber rattling. Only your Satanic State is.
When was the last time Iran declared war on another State? Who has nukes in the ME? Who doesn't? Who is a colonial and imperial power? Who is occupying another people? Who isn't?
Fuck off Witty.
@Richard Witty,
Look at the following choice excerpts from the comments section on Dan's article about Phil Weiss' praise of him on Realistic Dove. No, I don't mean "whose concerns must be addressed." You see Richard, I have been reading Phil's blog for a few years now, and although you are the most rational of the Zionists who post here, you seem to see only the concerns of other Zionist Jews. You refuse to address arguments that you cannot win; you prefer to ignore them. You have yet to internalize even one truth that is unpleasant to you. You pretend it's not there. The "concerns" of these people will not be addressed until Greater Israel is a reality, the Palestinians are dead or ethnically cleansed into another Arab State, and America is sucked dry of its wealth, reputation as a fair player, and a goodly number of its volunteer military force. I mean "up against".
To the rest of the "posse". Go over to Realistic Dove and take a look. Then saddle up and ride.
From Dan Flescher, who may be writing headlines to boost sales of his new book
"Is praise from Philip Weiss the kiss of death?”
From Suzanne, who probably makes Leonard Cohen regret that he ever wrote such a beautiful song with that name. Her comments, strangely enough, could be considered anti-Semitic, specifically those dealing with “a certain type of Jewish male”:
“I see him traveling down a slippery slope towards contempt of Jewishness as both religious faith and ethnicity.”
“The question is, are you morally repulsed? I know I am.”
“There is a certain type of Jewish male (which he represents) that I personally can’t stand. They are the equivalent of Italian mammone (mama’s boys).”
“I constantly feel like slapping Phil up side the head.”
From Michael, who would probably call his own comments anti-Semitic if a commenter on this blog made them!:
“There are some lessons in life he missed while growing up. It may be caused partially from that sheltered life young American Jews live.”
From Claskov:
“You said it; he is dangerous. His nominal identity as a Jew, and the ideas he promulgates give fodder to the most dangerous elements in our society and abroad, and they exploit him to the hilt.”
“It really exhausts the resources of the language to find words to express just how despicable Philip Weiss is.”
“He sold his soul, Peter, and he is not getting it back, at any price. Don’t go down that path.”
“He is not a moral human being. In fact, he is quite the opposite. He is someone filled with white-hot rage who assumes a pretense of critical detachment, while pouring forth a richly venomous stream of lies, calumny and hate speech, seasoned with just enough semi-truths to add a note of plausibility.”
From Bill Pearlman, who took the barrel of his 50 mm out of his mouth long enough to type:
“Phil Weiss takes pleasure in the deaths of Jews. He thinks that shooting Jews is charming.”
“I’m curious. I say that your pal Phil Weiss is an out and out jew baiting anti-semite. Has bad as anyone that I can think of. . What say you? Tell me where I’m wrong.”
From Richard Witty, who we all know and love:
“Gathering around an anger, rather than gathering around an intent.”
“I don’t think he got much money from the posse there, and more from other journalists and dissident leaders. Its possible that a few of the posse that do have resources did contribute.”
To the lot of you commenters over at Realistic Dove, also known as "Neocon Bloody Pigeon":
Sorry for airing your dirty laundry in front of the goy. We know how you hate it when they get a look at what you're really saying and thinking!!
PM
So much spittle.
Let's hear someone make a substantiated argument against Phil.
One may exist, but it's not coming from those Zionists. They are hysterical. Their outrage is meaningless.
I mean, just read that garbage. It's so sensationalist and yet so common. So typical.
This is the side of Zionism the moderates in the US need to see. A constant barrage of cry-wolf rhetoric.
Witty, being the snake that he is, slips this in:
“Gathering around an anger, rather than gathering around an intent.”
“I don’t think he got much money from the posse there, and more from other journalists and dissident leaders. Its possible that a few of the posse that do have resources did contribute.”
How ironic is his first statement? Gathering around an anger? What the fuck does that even MEAN? How do you report on any world conflict such as I-P without evoking passion and yes, anger?
And then the next comment he makes is just pure speculation. He has NO proof. How would he know anything about the donors?
Just typical Witty. Vague, superficial, cowardly, dishonest.
Those other freaks are just Stalinists.
Zionism is their religion. They worship the State. The Holocaust is their Torah.
Fucking clowns.
Thanks, Phil and Adam, for telling truths that the corporate media censors. How sad that Dr. Gilbert's descriptions have been available since January, but the paid "news" won't let them out. Thanks, John, Paul, Eva, Citizen, Joel. We all need to write to C-span asking that it show Dr. Gilbert's presentations.
Just typical Witty. Vague, superficial, cowardly, dishonest.
What is happening with Jews in Israel is also happening with Americans in the United States.
Their entire world view is under attack: America/Israel as the moral force of good in an evil world.
The idea that the United States/Israel is actually a force of evil is so earth shattering as to be unthinkable, and so something else, anything else, is thought of instead.
To do otherwise would demand acceptance that one has been working for evil – that one is what one has understood the enemy to be.
It is like the story I heard in Germany of the bureaucrat in some small town who when asked after the war what happened to all the Jews replied, they went away on a picnic and never came back.
Since every body posting here seems to be on the same page, let me offer some thoughts. If you were in Israel's position:
1. An adversary who does not accept your right to live in peace but rather whose primary goal is to eliminate your state.
2. Having rockets fired daily at your people, with intent to harm civilians.
3. The rockets being fired from civilian areas, cynically inviting retaliation to those areas and thus civilian casualties.
And by the way, there is no Israeli presence in Gaza. When Hamas refers to the occupation, they mean ALL of the land of the state of Israel. Yes, the border crossings to and from Gaza are often closed but has Hamas taken enough control to stop the rockets? If they would or could, I believe you would see the border crossings stay open. By allowing the rockets to be fired, Hamas is fueling the fires of this conflict.
What would you do?
"I wish Obama can fly into Gaza and say I am a Palestinian"
As it appears that the asperations of the Palestinians lead them to commiting genocide, Obama would be deemed an idiot by the civilized world should he espouse solidarity with such a murderous people. But Phil's Phools would kiss his ass.
I went to "realistic dove" and LO AND BEHOLD, there is a post by our beloved Sword of Gideon. I've wondered which cess pool where he might have washed up. No I don't miss him.
And by the way, there is no Israeli presence in Gaza
Gulag Archipelago is calling you a lier Barry.
What would I do? Work towords a bi-national state with equal rights for all people.
1. No people have the "right to live in peace" in a state that grants some people more rights than others. All those Aryans wanted was the "right to live in peace" and to have greater Israel – um I mean Germany. Look at how many states those English have, and all Germany wants is a tiny state for the Germans. Surely the world can spare some land!
2. One might be surprised to learn that at one point it was illegal to fly a Palestinian flag in Israel. One might also be surprised to learn that those rockets were hitting towns where the Palestinians had been ethnically cleansed.
3. There is no other locations to fire rockets from. It is the same as when Israel dropped leaflets warning of impending attack. The entire area is one big prison. It is not like, when during the Lebanon war, Israel parked its weapons in Palestinian areas – using those civilians as human shields.
Barry, you do realize that there are Jews here don't you?
You should take Dan's comments seriously. He presents the reality that I remind frequently that harrangue does the opposite of convincing rational people.
So, that leaves only irrational people to be appealed by harrangue and contempt.
These are human beings there that are affected by what we encourage (yes, even "we" have an effect). Israelis, Palestinians, others.
I don't approve of the Netanyahu position, even as it is Israeli (which I sympathize with in many ways). I would assume that those on the left would similarly disapprove of Hamas, even as they approve of assertion of Palestinian goals.
The effect would be to divide between reasonable and unreasonable, rather than between Israel and Palestine, left and right, western and orientalism (an odd description frankly).
I like that Obama is not focused on prosecuting Bush administration officials for authorizing illegal interrogation for example (as horrid as it is). I like that he is focused on goals as justice, rather than on retribution as somehow justice.
That is the sense that I state that even now, just a couple months after the event, an investigation into Gaza maybe the wrong news to look into, UNLESS it suggests alternatives that are possible.
Israel made a big mistake in swinging to the right so that Netanyahu and Lieberman lead a coalition government. (As you know, I largely blame Hamas for that, in choosing to resume shelling of civilians in Sderot and elsewhere following the formal end of the cease-fire.)
But, that is the reality now. Alternatives are very limited.
Rules to live by in dissent:
1. When you say that you oppose the occupation, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only the West Bank and normalized Gaza.
2. When you say that you support resistance, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only non-violent forms.
3. NEVER imply that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, or that "Zionism is racism".
4. ALWAYS urge for the color-blind rule of law in BOTH Israel and Palestine.
Dissent based on those four principles will yeild a viable and healthy Palestine, quickly evolving to a good neighbor to a good neighbor relation.
Dissent that deviates from those four will be seen as opportunistic, suspect, illegal (in the name of international law), led by individuals that are untrustworthy. (I doubt that Abbie Hoffman could have led a government for example, even very intelligent and rational David Dellinger.)
Joel Bitar…"part of the plan Shimon?
Depressing to post this link, but it seems, unfortunately, the answer to your question is…yes.
‘Israelis Prepared for Violations’ in Gaza
Hold up people! Wait a minute! Please keep in mind, we must not be vicious to Richard Witty. It's all right for him to show his complete contempt for the ideas expressed here. His contempt is so complete, it doesn't even ruffle his feathers, he just goes on positing his equivalency canards, or trying to change the subject. We are not even worth arguing with, and at no time are we worth telling the truth to. He is viciously condescending and patronising. But we must not be "vicious" to Richard Witty.
And every day, Richard keeps the conversation from progressing any further, with Mondoweiss's approval and complicity.
"4. ALWAYS urge for the color-blind rule of law in BOTH Israel and Palestine."
Richard Witty
The Palestinians and the Israelis are different colors, Richard? Gee, I never noticed. But my color vision is, admittedly, weak.
Please tell us, Richard, which color is the Palestinians and which color the Israelis?
Yes, Ritter, we know Israel left Gaza.
That does not mean the that Gaza had sovereignty. Israel still controlled the borders and was still carrying out operations there.
It's a superficial truth.
And no, Hamas has said that it would either take steps towards or outright accept Israel on the 67' borders and with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital.
Witty you would fall under the category of 'Cowards and Apologists'.
You are not rational. You're a pussy. In fact, you're such a coward that it even SHOWS on the internet.
Witty has yet to explain to us his earlier comments about how Israel removing it's colonists from the OT – colonists who are essentially paid to colonize another people's home – is 'ethnic cleansing'.
Until Witty dispenses with the dishonest rhetoric, he's just another piece of filth.
This same scumbag characterizes those Qassam rockets on S'Derot as SHELLING. How many died due to these rockets since 2000, Witty?
He constantly whitewashes the conflict. And if you whitewash the conflict you're essentially giving the Zionists huge advantage since they have a monopoly on the mainstream narrative in the West.
We have to stick to the truth. It's fucking serpents like Witty who degrade the debate while at the same time PREACHING about rationality and reason.
Save it for your 'liberal' Jewish friends Witty. You fucking coward.
Holy jumping Jesus, Batman:
Witless:
"I like that Obama is not focused on prosecuting Bush administration officials for authorizing illegal interrogation for example (as horrid as it is). I like that he is focused on goals as justice, rather than on retribution as somehow justice."
I like how Witty redefines terms such as 'ethnic cleansing' and 'shelling' and most recently, 'justice'.
Apparently justice is ignoring prosecuting criminals when it's politically INCONVENIENT.
It's not like the Bush era was a century ago you stupid bastard. It was the past EIGHT FUCKING YEARS.
What exactly are these GOALS OF JUSTICE Witless? Is it to let people off the hook who are higher up on the food chain while HOPING the offenses don't happen again?
"Dissent based on those four principles will yeild a viable and healthy Palestine, quickly evolving to a good neighbor to a good neighbor relation"
Gee Richard, too bad the Jews of Europe didn't adhere to your "four principles". We could have avoided all that anti-Semitism, huh?
So, when did Israel become the exponent of those "four principles"
Richard, you have inspired me to write a country-western-klezmer song! It's called "Goin' to the Israel in My Mind"
Richard, do you think we are to stupid to notice your contempt for us, or are you just waiting for the occaisional person who is grossly uninformed to show up?
But I mustn't be vicious to Mondoweiss's pet Zionist-supporter ("But you don't go!")
LD! Be careful! I think you may be getting "vicious" towards poor Richard! Remember, you are attacking a man who can kvetch with the best! In fact, he anticipates non-existent attacks on him and kvetchs in advance! So don't get "vicious", Mondoweiss will ban you.
If there is ever "liberal Zionist" talent show, I'm not sure we can get any plate-spinners. But when it comes to fence-sitting, we'll take fust prize!
@ LD
"Just typical Witty. Vague, superficial, cowardly, dishonest."
Agreed.
I don't categorize the above in being vicious at all.
Richard Witty,
1. When you say that you oppose the occupation, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only the West Bank and normalized Gaza.
NO!! I mean Jerusalem too, as stated by international law. I know how much that one sticks in your craw, but there it is. If you think it's ethnic cleansing to remove the settlers, let's get the detergent out and get to work!!
2. When you say that you support resistance, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only non-violent forms.
NO!! Violent resistance against occupation is more than acceptable, it is expected. Please read Steinbeck's "The Moon is Down". So yes, I agreed with Sheik Yassin when he told young Palestinians to violently resist the occupation. It's their right!!! It's not terrorism!!! The occupation is terrorism!!!
Richard, I wish that Israel would just get behind the '67 borders and start paying massive reparations to the Palestinians. In that place, they could enjoy their right to exist. I guess this belief makes me a Zionist, for I do still support the two-state solution, although the chances of it ever coming about fall as Israel manufactures "facts on the ground" on a daily basis. Witty cries for the poor settlers who would undergo such trauma upon their removal – answer me this Witty – how many settlers were there in the Occupied West Bank 15 years ago, and how many are there today? Richard will talk about "having their day in court" or some such platitude about "perfecting ownership". Mr. Richard Silverstein answered that one best when he mentioned that this situation must be negotiated bilateraly (and that doesn't mean between Israel and the US, Witty!), not decided in an unjust Israeli courtroom!!
4. ALWAYS urge for the color-blind rule of law in BOTH Israel and Palestine.
What a joke!!! There is NO rule of law in Israel!!!
PM
A couple of comments from the nasty Jewish Zionist/Jewish-liberal/Judeophile liberal amalgamation over at Realist Dove on the Philip Weiss thread stick out.
One “claskov” says Weiss is being exploited by the most “dangerous” elements of society: “Why do you think he is a regular contributor to The American Conservative, a white nationalist magazine?” (which the American Conservative is not, BTW). Later, Claskov adds: “Jews invented modern liberalism, and have always been it’s backbone, especially in the United States.” (Hat tip: LeaNder).
So what we have here are a number of JEWISH NATIONALISTS, proudly bragging that Jewish liberals are the heart and sole of left-liberalism in the United States, attacking “white nationalists” who are merely the flip side of Zionists, (just as Nazis were the flip side of Jewish Bolsheviks).
This bolsters my contention that a significant percentage of “liberal” diaspora Jews — probably a majority, given that the vast majority of Jews are Zionists — don’t subscribe to liberalism out of any ideological dedication, but rather as a cynical, opportunistic advancement strategy in societies where they constitute a minority. And this is consistent with my contention that Jews also were the backbone of early Communism for similar reasons.
Taken in whole, it is all yet more evidence that Judeofascism is a real and extremely dangerous phenomenon, that it operates under the mask of Leftist “liberalism” in the diaspora, but reveals its authentic Jewish nationalist identity in Israel, where it constitutes a majority.
Witty's four principles–
Rules to live by in dissent:
1. When you say that you oppose the occupation, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only the West Bank and normalized Gaza.
2. When you say that you support resistance, clarify in EVERY post that you mean only non-violent forms.
3. NEVER imply that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, or that "Zionism is racism".
4. ALWAYS urge for the color-blind rule of law in BOTH Israel and Palestine.
I don't recall ever seeing Witty say that Israel should only resist Palestinian violence with nonviolent methods. I don't recall seeing him condemn the blockade–rather, he blames it on Hamas. I agree that the Palestinians should only use nonviolent methods, but not because they have to live up to Israel's nonexistent moral standards. I don't read Dan F's blog very often–when you are over there, Witty, do you tell them that Israel should never under any circumstances use force against Palestinian terrorists, or is this rule only supposed to apply to people who might use force against Israeli Jews?
As for Israel's "right to exist", as a pragmatic matter I support the two state solution, because I'd be afraid of civil war otherwise, but Israel had no "right" to ethnically cleanse its Arab population in 1948, so sorry, there is no absolute moral right for them to exist as a Jewish state.
I just read the thread over at Dan F's blog and actually, for the most part Witty doesn't come off sounding so bad to me. I disagreed with a couple of his remarks, but he defends Phil more than he criticizes him. I'm angrier about what Witty said here (see my previous post) than over anything he said there.
It was hilarious seeing people over there complaining about the antisemites here (and there are a couple) while Bill Pearlman is right there in their midst, an accepted commenter. Apparently it's okay to be an Arab-hating racist.
And yeah, there were comments about Phil's background that I'm sure those same people would label as "antisemitic" if made by Phil.
Richard,
Do you condemn Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Was armed resistance in Masada against your principles?
Did Israeli forces in 1948 went to Jordanian courts before preventing Arabs from ever returning to their properties?
Is Zionism scrupulously ensuring the strictly proportional allocation of building permits, land allocations, health and education budgets to its Israeli citizen regardless to their ethnic origins?
Is denigrating non-Jews a hate crime in Israel?
Will you undertake to state in every post that Palestine has a right to exist?
Will you undertake to state in every post that there are two unequal law for two different ethnic groups in Occupied Palestine right now, and that you consider it racist?
You are attacking my person rather than addressing my point, which is that dissent that ridicules or that is violent alienates MORE than it inspires.
War is NOT my goal in the process.
1948 is long past. There are only two elements of addressing it that I believe require some healing on the part of Israel. One is Palestinians' day in court, to perfect the rule of law relative to individual property rights. The second is a recognition by Israel (which has been made by Olmert and even Sharon), that the formation of Israel was in part a zero-sum game and a recognition that Israel's actions caused suffering to many Palestinians.
That itself is close qualitatively to the statement that "Hamas accepts the 67 borders". (Both self-gratifying assertions are at best partially accurate.)
When you as a dissenter CHOOSE to pursue an approach that it is either infeasible, unjust in the next pendulum swing, or alienates, you DELAY the good that you propose to support.
Also,
On realistic dove, as here, I stick to content, and try to avoid demeaning persons.
Witty: It's simple. Is Israel going to be a racist society or isn't it?
There's a reason most western states are democratic secular.
There's also a reason why Israel is not. You hint at it with this mythical day in court. You don't come out and say it, though, and that is refugees have a right to return home. It is this that strikes fear in the hearts of racists.
There are lots of racist states out there. Israel is currently the only country who's existence is based on it maintaining itself as a racist state. It is racist not just Palestinians, but against anyone who challenges the fundamentalist line.
That includes Jews who change religions and women who refuse to sit at the back of the bus. Israel will not be all better if only the "Palestinian problem" were solved.
1947-1949 are not long past. The people and their descendants are still sitting in refugee camps waiting to go home. Are you saying "if only a crime is committed often enough and long enough it becomes ok"? Maybe we should "get over" the holocaust?
War is always the outcome of attempting to subjugate a population. It does not matter whether one wants it or not.
Witty says 1948 is long past. I say so is the Holocaust. Can't we get over it.
No. But we can get over you.
Not if I, an average American, have anything to say about it. Jews have no copyright on abuse not earned. Chris Berel is not a real American. He's just a jew firster who takes advantage of being born in the USA, where goys protect him even as he despises them.
Go outside if you want to fight.
You should dissent. Its important to. Its just important to undertake dissent that helps more than it harms.
Urging support for Hamas in its current rejectionist stance for example is a dead-end approach. It is relaxed its perspective to a consistent conditional approach, then there would be some prospect of reconciliation.
Currently, there is no incentive for Israel to work with them in any manner that is bi-lateral. Unilateral humanitarian yes which it will continue to, but then it continues to be the sole determining player.
That is one of the great tragedies of the Hamas resumption of shelling of Israeli towns (30 rockets in a day is shelling).
Not if I, an average American, have anything to say about it. Jews have no copyright on abuse not earned.
Posted by: Dick | April 18, 2009 at 04:50 PM
No wonder your parents call you Dick. I also call you Dick. Indeed, you are a Dick. An American Nazi, Dick.
Dick is another name for Richard, Berel. Are you addressing Witty too?
I noticed Witty never answered the question–why does he require Palestinian resistance to be nonviolent when he doesn't require this of Israel?
Your lectures would be more interesting, WItty, if you ever stopped being so biased. I think more highly of you than some others here, but there's some basis for the attacks you get and rather than ever looking at yourself in the mirror, you prefer to think it's just a bunch of people being rude. It's partly that, but it's more than that. You infuriate some of us because of your double standards and you either don't see this or you do see it and pretend not to. I hope it's the former.
I do suggest that Israel pursue every non-violent option that accomplishes its necessary goals, over violent approaches.
I don't have an answer as to how to address Hamas and others' shelling.
There are two options for Israel in thinking about Hamas.
1. It is an elected representative of a state, in which its unilateral violent attempts are acts of war, in which case they directly expose Palestinian civilians to the consequences of war.
or.
2. They are an extra-legal militia, in which its unilateral violent attempts are criminal, in which case they have limited credibility and then Israel should negotiate only with the PA, which is a legal entity currently (however they came to govern the portions of the West Bank that they now do by agreement).
You can't magically jump that divide. It is a decision that rests with Hamas, whether it will in FACT turn the corner to being a responsible participating party (responsible governing if they win, responsible minority party if they lose), or remain a militia with a service wing.
So, not having an answer on how to address Hamas (especially when it makes firming unconditional public statements rejecting any Israel as Israel), I accept that some military orientation towards them is appropriate, and the limit of my dissent can only be in extent and method of military orientation.
But, once the relationship is primarily military rather than civil, its already over the line of civility, and will be experienced as oppressive.
The issues do seem to get to Jerusalem, Haram al Sharif OR Temple Mount.
Either/or.
Presently it is Haram al Sharif. In the spirit of valuing the democracy of the present over some romantic past (whether 1948 or 60 or 2000 BCE), let it be Haram al Sharif, but let the Kotel be the Kotel.
The best publicity Jews have for extremists in america – Phil's Phools led by LD.
Since Chris Berel can't get over the Shoah (jews die, not gypsies or any other group of humans), why would Chris ever think Hamas, or Palestinians generally, should get over the Nakba? Goose, gander, no? Stern Gang & other jewish terrorist groups are heros, but not Hamas? How so? Pls explain.