I suppose this was inevitable. A report on the Washington Post website, an hour or so back, says that the Obama Justice Department is reviewing the case brought under the Espionage act against Steve Rosen and Ken Weissman because of new standards for conviction in such matters. And you wonder why a choice piece of evidence from that investigation was leaked to Congressional Quarterly? One thing for sure: There's a war inside the federal government over the Israel lobby.
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Then why is Franklin in jail?
On the leek. Do you think that was an action that enhanced justice, or an action that suppressed and undermined justice?
I think it illustrated the danger of illegal wiretaps in origination, and the danger of their misuse for political purposes.
An approach worthy of Kenneth Starr.
Col. Franklin is not in jail, according to the Bureau of Prisons:
http://tinyurl.com/Wheres-Larry
In all likelihood, black and white stripped suit #70425-083 will never see use.
Estimado Phil,
The whole point of a Samson Gambit, is that those columns really have to start shaking enough to be credible…
Can't wait 'til you cover AIPAC.
I think part of the Israel lobby meltdown is the disconnect between netanyahu and rahm emanuel. go phil & adam!
@Richard Witty
On the leek. Do you think that was an action that enhanced spring onions as a whole, or an action that suppressed and undermined vadalia onions?
I think that DISSENT for leeks should focus on a SOLUTION that includes other onions, rather than excludes specific varieties.
Every leek should have its day in court, in order to perfect its claim to its patch of the garden. Of course, those onions who were chosen by G-d may indiscriminately drop chemical herbicide bombs on other onions, or surround them with life-choking wire fences. After killing many and herding the rest of the onions into caged enclosures, those chosen leeks who take over the real estate and water rigths must NOT be removed, as it would constitue ethnic cleansing. As to the displaced onions, well, there is deep-fat fryer, provided with taxpayer funds from the USA, ready to turn them into onion rings.
Richard, I'm finally beginning to understand the gist of your arguments.
PM
Let me spell it out for you in this case.
The rage about Harman, rings to me like a character assassination conspiracy more than news.
Phil's point about "There's a war inside the federal government over the Israel lobby", reminds me that the realists are NOT in fact, but instead seeking restoration of their promised power, based on old-boy networking.
That their parents' investment in Yale or Princeton education and networking, hasn't yet paid off.
Posted by: Paul Malfara | April 21, 2009 at 08:47 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ROTFLMAO…you have witty down to a "t".
Richard,
Harman was the biggest proponent of the illegal wiretaps. It's poetic justice, if you ask me. I'd like to see her have her day in court and if she is proven guilty (because she's still innocent, remember that everyone) then she should get the required punishment. To me, the fact that she ended the call by attempting that it never existed testifies to the severity of what she was trying to fix here. Let it go further and if it comes to, she is more than capable to mount a defence.
My spelling is, given how anyone's continuing career, hope for a career, or enhancing one's career is never helped by questioning anything Israel does, and in fact it hurts all of the above. This reality of old-boy networking, which people like Witty refuse to acknowledge, is the point. That's the difference between Witty and Phil. If you want your parental investment to Yale or Princeton to pay off materially for you, and in terms of social advancement, for you and your parents, you don't question Israeli policy. The war inside the federal government over the Israel Lobby reminds me that a few realists still survive, and courageously try when they can to stop the zionist takeover of
our government and our very lives. The "old boy network" is now zionist to the core, and has been
arguably for sixty years, and at its rate, forty years, no question at all.
Regarding angry push-back against the lobby, there's definitely plenty of hints of that in Stein's description of his sources:
"Harman dodged a bullet, say disgusted former officials who have pursued the AIPAC case for years."
"As for there being "no evidence" to support the FBI probe, a source with first-hand knowledge of the wiretaps called that "bull****.""
""It's the deepest kind of corruption," said a recently retired longtime national security official who was closely involved in AIPAC investigation, "which was years in the making."
the washington post isn't credible.. i think of it mostly as a propaganda outlet for certain groups… PM – hilarious post.. thanks for sharing that..
Now with wire tapping coming back and biting the lobby in the ass, they now whine on how unfair it all is. Notice how all the neocons were on the front lines denouncing this practice say in 2005 2006. Justice emerges in strange ways.
Richard,
Have you been reading DISSENT and COMMENTARY recently? Remember, as Woody Allen said, the result of this is usually DYSENTERY.
Or putting it another way in 'real-world' terms: There's a war going on with the the equivalent of government 'Internal Affairs' — After eight years of hell, I believe there still are good, hardworking, patriotic people in the NSA, FBI and CIA who are not out for character assassination — but are just 'trying' to do their jobs and to protect America.
"reminds me that the realists are NOT in fact, but instead seeking restoration of their promised power, based on old-boy networking.
That their parents' investment in Yale or Princeton education and networking, hasn't yet paid off."
Here Witty speculates about the existence of an old boy network (with hints that maybe he's talking about the old WASP elite) that conspires behind the scenes.
He is giving us all permission to believe that there are conspiratorial elites in and around government who engage in sleazy dishonest practices to achieve their goals. No doubt–it's always been this way, as best I can tell. So, Richard, is Aipac also engaged in dishonest practices or are they innocent babes victimized by those nefarious "realists" that you talk about?
Sarcasm aside, Witty, it does strike me as funny that you start madly speculating about Ivy League grads trying to win back their power behind the scenes, conspiratorial-like. Maybe so, maybe so. But surely AIPAC more than holds its own in the power-grabbing arena.
Its a plausible speculation.
Repeat it 100 times in fourty websites each repeating each other, and it will be true, with 40 potential authoritative citations.
Its a plausible speculation.
Repeat it 100 times in fourty websites each repeating each other, and it will be true, with 40 potential authoritative citations.
Posted by: Richard Witty
What is your point? You become so obtuse that it is almost impossible reconstruct what your point is. After coming up with 3 interpretations on this one single sentence assertion, I give up — perhaps you could just come right and say what it is you are trying to say.
Words fail me to describe this.
If I recall correctly, the defense, such as it was, focused on this line of reasoning (paraphrasing here):
- Since Israel is our bestest ally and friend, and since we already give them any and all paperwork, secret memos, plans, everything they ask for, anyway… then what these two did was certainly not treason, they might have been overzealous, because they did not go through official channels but hurried the process.
I for one welcome our Likdunik/neoliberal/neocon overlords, and look forward to bombing Iran and Syria.
syvanen
I think Witty doesn't write clearly because, if only subconsciously, he realizes that many of his arguments (i.e. tribal loyalty in America) are morally indefensible when clearly spelled out.
re witty:: his brain is shorting out. he has overworked it in his many efforts at justification of the unjustifiable. lets give him time. it may cool, reset, and we will again have nonsense, but at least intelligible nonsense…. or he may continue his tailspin like the character in nikolai gogols diary of a madman.
If you don't understand a point, a word, grammar that I use, ask.
I'll try to explain my reasoning if you are seeking actual discussion.
The assertion of the Jewish people to be active, free, self-governing, in contrast to until post-WW2 as oppressed, passive, is a good.
You want to call support for the freedom of a people "tribalism", I guess you can go ahead.
Take a look at yourself. Do you adopt "tribal" impulses? If so, heal thyself if it is a consistent and practical approach.
I don't think it is. I think liberal applications of voluntary association is the name of the game.
self-governing, active, and free–to do anything? like invade Iraq? Torture? Squat?
Witty, you've become completely opaque and incomprehensible. No one understands what you're talking about, the points you make. You need to see that because no one has the time to write you to ask what "a point, a word, grammar that I use." You need to face the fact that if the majority here are shaking their heads, it's not us. It's getting to be a drag when the entire thread is about your obfuscation, or your complete failure to understand what anyone else is saying and respond in kind.
Since Israel is our bestest ally and friend, and since we already give them any and all paperwork, secret memos, plans, everything they ask for, anyway… then what these two did was certainly not treason, they might have been overzealous, because they did not go through official channels but hurried the process.
Americangoy, quaint, but I think you've got it wrong. Their defense was a bit more sophisticated than this. First, there is the Espionage Act of 1917, which is problematic, in and of itself. (You can see a summary here: link to en.wikipedia.org
Notice that under this law it is pretty much unclear what "promoting the success of the enemies" might be.
Further, their defense was based on the argument that the entire classification process has been abused, and the defense received permission from the court to call as witnesses former government officials who would confirm this – not just in the case of Israel, but in general.
Personally, I would be happier if the case went to court; if Rosen and Weissman were exonerated; and if those who had wasted taxpayer money were forced to leave their jobs in disgrace. (But I know that even if the trial does go forward and they are acquitted, the nuts here and elsewhere will argue that "The Lobby" got to the judge and jurors.)
It's getting to be a drag when the entire thread is about your obfuscation…
Hey, there's a quick and sure answer. Stop with the ad hominem attacks and stay OT!
@ Israel Lobby Archive | April 21, 2009 at 08:20 PM
Thanks for the link to Mr. Franklin's incarceration status! I had read somewhere that he had been hired on again at the DoD in some low level position that didn't require a security clearance. It could be bunk; I don't remember the source.
I wonder if Mr. Franklin is hoping for a trial. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but his conviction and 12 year sentence stands with a reduction contingent upon cooperation at Mssr's Rosen and Weissman's trial, and would be far more difficult to overturn than mere circumvention of the latter's trial.
The WAPO article ends with the sentence:
Any decision to seek to drop the charges would require approval from a federal judge.
Which federal judge? Hopefully not Judge Ellis, who has done everything he could to kill this case whilst maintaining appearances. The article also lists 2 June as the trial date. If this is accurate, this makes, someone doublecheck me here please, eleven postponements?
"Further, their defense was based on the argument that the entire classification process has been abused, and the defense received permission from the court to call as witnesses former government officials who would confirm this – not just in the case of Israel, but in general."
Overclassification is a big problem, as is retro-classification; ShrubCo's legacy. Sounds like the implied defense is whatever documents are involved, they shouldn't have been classified or should have had a lower classification? Therefore, any information gleaned from those documents and orally passed and received was benign?
http://2009transition.org/liberty-security/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=24
Here's the spy case order listing the general subject matter of various documents involved in the allegations. Also note one allegation involves a direct passing of a document by fax rather than
oral passing of information–it's Franklin's hand-typed list of an Appendix to a document involving one country in the Middle East. I think that the government should pursue this trial, come hell or high water–there are a lot of cases still alive regarding secret or allegedly secret
or confidential documents; here's the former head overseer of the classification criteria and process, ready to testify to his long-held POV that the process has been heavily abused for
the wrong reasons for a long time, and also as to this abuse in the context of back door leaks to cut off or tailor information John Q Public has a right to know and duty to act upon. Given the verbal criteria on the face of the Espionage Act, it's not at all clear that a jury would buy the opinion of the Defense's key expert witness that the information was not potentially harmful
to the US.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/aipac/rosen021709.pdf
So do you have to be so transparent Witty?
"I see nothing tribal about fighting for a people's freedom."
Riiight fighting for "people's freedom" all at the expense of the whole jewish community, americans, the country as a whole while blackmailing people & politicians to actively torture prisoners & pass laws which are draconian.
Demanding everyone run to Israel's side and fight its enemies for the country, when Israel which is not any slouch, has been degenerating into nearly a nazi project the last 50 years which we are frankly sick of.
And at the same time this is all done in the name of freedom. Freedom you bet. Freedom for Zionist criminals who want to shut down all free speech, torture, and do horrible things to those who speak against Israel? Even when Israel isn't the victim?
Freedom, yep that's about it. Freedom in chains. in chains, is not the way we do our policy….
@ Citizen | April 22, 2009 at 09:33 AM
Thanks for the link.
It has been my experience that many classified documents are over-classified, but I have come across the under-classified before. I think the 'expert' witness for the defense will be a wash. It is irrelevant what general patterns of misclassifications may exist. What matters, with respect to rule of law, is what the classifications actually were, not what some defense lawyer or judge thinks they should have been. 'Expert' testimony for the defense is irrelevant: the classifications are what they are.
And what matters with respect to common sense is whether or not the specific information peddled by Mssrs Franklin, Rosen, and Weissman was misclassified. The defense's 'expert' is reputed to be a specialist on the overall document classification system, and is highly unlikely to have expertise in the specific areas of knowledge that the espionaged documents contain. They would need to call up credible witness who are experts in said areas of knowledge. Maybe they thought of that, but couldn't find anyone with the relevant expertise who would give them the time of day.
Paul, you're attitude concerning comestibles is very commendable, but what about us human beans?
"Its a plausible speculation.
Repeat it 100 times in fourty websites each repeating each other, and it will be true, with 40 potential authoritative citations."
Richard Witty
Very nice twist on Israel Apologetics technique No.3 and 4 "You Suck" and of course "The Whole World Sucks"
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
A talent for improvisation and variation is essential when you have only four main axioms to work with. Good work, Witty.
So I was right, which surprises me, cause I didn't think it could be that simple. Even if the case goes nowhere, this is still not going to redound to Harman's credit. And thus she is recompensed for her support of the Bush Administratrion's policies. Maybe she can kvetch that they exposed this conversation because she is Jewish. She is the victim of anti-Semitism, probably by Witty's WASP "old boy" network. Yup, that's the ticket!
When it turns out that the leek was the only illegal action and done intentionally, I hope you will all apologize.
Apologize to a Jew? They would rather commit suicide enmass. Not a bad thought, now that it has been mentioned
Witty, there is nothing to apologize for. She's not accused of anything criminal, only ethical. That was made explicit in the original reporting.
And the leek. What was that?
Probably illegal as well as unethical, as was the original law that enabled the collection of the "evidence".
Colin Murray:
"I think the 'expert' witness for the defense will be a wash. It is irrelevant what general patterns of misclassifications may exist. What matters, with respect to rule of law, is what the classifications actually were, not what some defense lawyer or judge thinks they should have been. 'Expert' testimony for the defense is irrelevant: the classifications are what they are."
Under your system there is no free press. All the government has to do is say somethings classified and under rule of law it must be kept secret. Every "classified" leak reported in a newspaper a felony.
Apparently the government didn't think Leonard testifying would be a "wash". They fought like hell to keep the "Classification Czar" from testifying and lost.
"They fought like hell to keep the "Classification Czar" from testifying and lost."
Sure thing AIPAC, only problem with that is when those original laws came into effect they were put there for a reason. To promote national security and protect it from abuse of those who seek to undermine it.
Only that was the last thing on AIPAC's mind when ironically it decided to start leaking out actual documents on selected US military infrastructure in Iran & other areas for its own ends.
In its own paranoia, it succeeded in not only undermining the implicit nature of our own espionage law but also the very interests it claims to serve – America's interests which got sacrificed instead for Israel's interests.
Incidentally it then put everyone in more jeopardy then the imaginary threat of nuclear bombs coming out of Iran, by actually setting precedent to violate our national security.
It's criminal and reckless and worse still caught on tape. To much of D.C. it might be called sometimes business as usual. But in this case the people said that won't fly, especially when it puts the country at risk.
SurethingAIPAC:
"Sure thing AIPAC, only problem with that is when those original laws came into effect they were put there for a reason… "Incidentally it then put everyone in more jeopardy then the imaginary threat of nuclear bombs coming out of Iran, by actually setting precedent to violate our national security."
Completely moronic. Hard to figure out what you are talking about. You talk in generalities. The 1917 law was never used because it was a crappy law that didn't translate to the modern world. Are you calling J William Leonard a traitor? Leonard is testifying for the defense and the case may be dropped because right from the beginning it was a lot bullshit.
"The 1917 law was never used because it was a crappy law that didn't translate to the modern world. Are you calling J William Leonard a traitor?"
Oh no, I'm saying Leonard proved why the law was put on the books. To make sure that no one, not even the Israel lobby was ever granted the right to distribute classified information to protect their "security" at the expense of the security interests of the United States.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Espionage_Act_of_1917
"to convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies and whoever when the United States is at war, to cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or to willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States. This was punishable by a maximum $USD 10,000 fine (almost $170,000 in today's dollars) and 20 years in prison."
"(1) Amends the fourth paragraph of section 793, title 18 (subsec. (d)), to cover the unlawful dissemination of "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." The phrase "which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" would modify only "information relating to the national defense," and not the other items enumerated in the subsection. The fourth paragraph of section 793 is also amended to provide that only those with lawful possession of the items relating to national defense enumerated therein may retain them subject to demand therefor."