It looks like the realists are growing weary. The venerable Landrum Bolling has produced a new video, New Hope for Peace: What America Must Do To End The Israel-Palestine Conflict, that looks aimed directly at the Obama White House. In it Bolling interviews Jimmy Carter, James Baker, Brent Scowcroft and Zbigniew Brzezinski, all of whom offer their advice for the current Obama efforts. There seems to be tinge of concern that the administration isn’t willing to do what needs to be done. Scrowcroft says we have to change the way we have been doing things, while Brzezinski says frustration is widespread. Jimmy Carter takes the cake with the quote that became the title of this post. The message is clear – the US needs to speak clearly about Israel and apply pressure to change conditions on the ground.
All speakers agree that things will not move forward without US leadership. Most specifically they point towards opening dialog with Hamas in the belief that everyone has to be at the table. Does this video represent a sign of despiration that Obama is getting weak in the knees? Not sure, but I’d feel better if one of these old hands were whispering in Obama’s ear on the subject and not Dennis Ross.
Yes, Phil, Iago lives.
They need a prominent Jew. One who is willing to submerge his or her’s ethnic bias in favour of the greater good.
They each described that for a peace to occur it takes BOTH US involvement and pressure, the development of confidence that such a peace would not (ever) result in bloodshed on Israeli civilians.
Otherwise, consent for any significant agreement is not possible, given the last comment by Carter, of the “unforgivable” actions of suicide bombings on innocent civilians.
Yes, Carter dissed Palestinian suicide bombers but earlier in the video he laid out his context, which was that the single biggest obstacle to a peace agreement was that Israel will not
withdraw from the occupied territories. Further all agreed HAMAS must be at the
peace table.
He spoke of the unwillingness of Israel to renounce expansion, which is exactly my primary dissenting theme.
His thesis was the nature of the situation was a “conflict” requiring skillful conflict mediation to remedy.
That contrasts with the BDS and Palestinian nationalist orientation, that regards the nature of the events as primarily an “oppression”, requiring primarily punitive intervention.
Both are better than military.
I think you misread Carter’s comments to conclude which he regards as “more important”. Read again.
Again, my read is that his view is similar to mine, that the conflict is a “bad marriage” sometimes requiring temporary intervention, but primarily requiring effective mediation.
Suicide bombers: If Palestinians could shoot missiles into Israel or fly aircraft so high overhead that no one even knows they are there,only the shoes standing on the ground empty of once living people like Israel does to them, even they would like it better. It makes no sense in dissing suicide bombers from killers afraid to die or cowards who would sooner hide under the bed.
Had there been more of a blood price for 60 years of hell, there would have been peace. The idea that Jews can kill thousands of INNOCENT Palestinian men, women and children for years (check the numbers on IF Americans Knew), and get away with it. Not only that, but they have morons all over the world going around crying that they are scared from suicide bombings. ISRAELIs should live in fear for what they have done. They should taste their babies blood, like the Palestinians have. Then you’ll have the cowards yelping for peace. Get freakin’ real man, those people are monsters of hate… never wanted peace, and will never give peace.
agreed. They will never give peace. It is not in Zionist DNA. It just won’t happen. The question is how they can get away with it. That is mind boggling to me! It’s the people’s war, not governments. That’s what I am learning from it all. It’s going to take people standing on the Palestinian side throwing rocks, if you will.
In what world are we impartial and objective?
In what world are we not heavily invested in Israel?
$3 billion/year is just not small change! I’m so TIRED of hearing that rhetoric.
The realists may be weary but they shouldn’t be surprised. The Obama administration isn’t realist, it’s liberal internationalist, which is a slightly more highbrow form of Wilsonianism than neoconservatism. The last realist president was Nixon, and even then Kissinger’s tribal loyalties on the Mideast outraged his boss.
Is this the type of Nixon “realism” you mean?
JEW SPIES VS. NEGRO SPIES
I think Nixon was “outraged” by more than “tribal loyalties,” it has a certain ring to it, this conversation…
…the development of confidence that such a peace WILL NOT result in CONTINUED bloodshed of either PALESTINIANS or ISRAELI inhabitants.
teachin’ the Israelis how to talk ‘merican.
The emphasis on Israeli confidence mirrored Carter’s and others’ comments, that in order for Israel to consent to an agreement, they MUST be confident that land for peace, really means peace.
Style is nice, Richard, but always your emphasis is on Israel. Always. There is a need for balance, always.
Style is nice, Richard, but always your attention is on Israel. Always. There is a need for balance, always.
in order for Israel to consent to an agreement, they MUST be confident that land for peace, really means peace
Yes, but the Palestinians must be confident that land for peace really means land. Up to now all Israeli proposals have come with caveats (corridors, Israeli-only roads, “security zones,” long-term withdrawal schedules) that would imply that the PA wouldn’t be able to use the territory offered like any sovereign nation does.
RE:that in order for Israel to consent to an agreement, they MUST be confident that land for peace, really means peace.
Oh no you di’int! Witty do you think we all just rolled of the banana boat? or you Zionists are so well disciplined and shameless you roll out these bromides for the new generations on cue, for the possibility of catching one new fry in the mix and don’t care who knows better? I must be old because I have heard this a countless number of times and can’t begin to count all the dead Palestinians and other dead or maimed Israel neighbors! All you Zionists are insulting, surely by now most people are onto you. I find it hard to believe otherwise.
“I’d feel better if one of these old hands were whispering in Obama’s ear on the subject and not Dennis Ross.”
Obama has been talking with Carter on these issues for awhile. Now that he’s the president he seems careful to not be seen as too close to him but when Carter went to Syria and met with the leaders of Hamas reported to George Mitchell upon return.
The mention of Dennis Ross makes me want to spit. I am sick of white guys in general talking about what’s right and wrong for everybody else in the world like they are God’s gift. I kind of figured a lot of people know what I mean because they voted for Obama….LOL. I only voted for Obama because Ron Paul was out so I bailed on the party. So I figured I would vote for the black guy. Give one to my bruthas and sistahs since there was nothing else.
I’m white, but I also voted for Ron Paul in the primaries, for the first time registering as a Republican just to do so. Then I voted for Obama, hoping he was not a PEP. McCain was just a clone of his father, who deep-sixed the USS Liberty investigation.
Interesting that none of the great statesmen even mentioned our large annual dole (and assortment of MOEs) to
Israel as a tool for POTUS, although all agreed a POTUS must step in and drag the two
party’s to the peace table.
The aid is just a minor component of the important relationship, is why.
Its a big deal to those that wish the relationship to not exist, but the relationship DOES exist. Better that it be a good one.
8 million free dollars a day, no strings attached, is not minor–that’s very special, a very special relationship, especially when Israeli (and AIPAC’s congress) tell us
to Butt Out of Israel’s affairs even as Israel takes our cash.
Well no, the welfare check is not a ‘minor component’. There wouldn’t be such a huge lobbying push for it if it were so minor.
I also disagree about it being a big deal to only those who wish the relationship to end. I for one do not wish the relationship to end, just as I don’t want the relationships to end with Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, etc. I want the money spigot to end. If we’re going to do welfare, I would rather see it go to fixing the D.C. mall grounds, feed American kids whose parents can’t afford three meals a day, or anything else that helps Americans in need, especially during these tough times. It’s our tax dollars afterall, but hey, that’s just my opinion.
An interesting report on the “Elad” group and what amounts to an alleged scheme between it and the Israeli government to quietly put much of the East Jerusalem area into settler hands:
link to news.yahoo.com
It also seemed especially interesting to me due to its suggestion that much of what was reported on was actually illegal under Israeli law. And I keep seeing repeated talk in the Israeli media talking about how this or that segment of the Israeli government has acted contrary to the government. Latest report of same that I saw was just the other day in Haaretz where there is talk of the cops preparing plans to forcibly evacuate some settlements but that it’s just expected that pro-settlers on the police force will leak the plans to the settlers.
Makes you wonder just how much the Israeli gov’t is actually, formally behind some of this stuff, and how much it really just doesn’t control and which has been done by rogue nuts holding official positions.
In any event the story I linked to above seems very well researched and was interesting to me at least.
Richard,
The ‘special relationship’ has up to now been an enormous burden on the ‘peace process’ because it furthers skews the power differential between Israel and the Palestinians (the actual aid paid to Israel also plays a part in this), in favour of the former.
At best the American viewpoint (also of those who ‘speak out’ in the video) is one of ‘even-handedness’, as if Israel and the Palestinians are somehow equal partners. In reality this is a conflict between a strong State, with a large army armed to the teeth by the US, against a stateless people, mainly refugees, armed with stovepipe ‘rockets’ and light weapons. It’s hard to find a greater power differential between to partners in conflict anywhere in the world.
All of America’s cackling about ‘we’ll always support Israel’ is in that sense completely unhelpful: the US will have to, to be successful, apply more than verbal pressure to make Israel steer away from its Titanic-like course.
The days that the special relationship had strategic value for the US are also largely over.
But, in that approach, you are conflicting with the wisdom of the four interviewed, that stated that ONLY the US has the credibility of both a trusted friend AND a potentially honest broker, to be a/the key mediator.
The use of the term “we’ll always support Israel” is too vague. The Obama administration, and Carter and others suggestion is that the US confidently commit (which we do) to enhance to the point of guarantee the security of Israeli civilians.
You live in a fantasy world if you think that the relevance of the critical relationship is over. The three main points of relationship remain, though are stressed some by Netanyahu’s idiocies.
1. Intimate social and economic
2. Strategic and intelligence
3. Support for democratic institutions
Reform is clearly needed, and Obama is insisting on that. Radical change in the form of renunciation of primary but independant relationship with Israel is not in the cards.
The use of the term “we’ll always support Israel” is exactly as vague as AIPAC, Israel, and 99% of the US Congress wants, as well as all our right wing Israel First stink tanks
who peddle repetitive rationales in the face of objective facts. You live in a fantasy
world if you think otherwise. How about, “we’ll always support fairness in the world,
including in the Middle East.” Or, “we’ll always support Israel, but not Israel right or wrong. The USA has to stand up for its highest values or it will not long retain its world reputation as the first nation with moral integrity, which our soldiers have long died
for around the world, so may they rest in peace.”
An excellent piece, full of perspective from a white-haired group of American statesmen and realists. Let’s put the whole group on PBS every week discussing current developments – Pathway to Peace – with nary a Zionist spinmeister empowered to spout propaganda or enforce the forbidden memes. That’s what Obama needs from the media. That’s what we need. That’s what Israel and Palestine need.
You can’t have that. Sheesh! You think the public owns the air waves, that PBS is
somehow a platform for grassrootsspeak?
Talk about your forbidden memes:
‘In the money laundering scheme, the rabbis arrested included Saul J. Kassin, 87, a leader of the Syrian Jewish community in Brooklyn and New Jersey; Mordchai Fish and Lavel Schwartz, both rabbis in Brooklyn; and Eliahu Ben Haim and Edmund Nahum, who lead congregations in Deal.
‘Rabbi Nahum, prosecutors said, told Mr. Dwek that he should spread his money through a number of rabbis. “The more it’s spread the better,” Rabbi Nahum said, according to the complaint.’
link to nytimes.com
The whole kidney black market rip off originated in Israel, and with a nod from the
Israeli government. The predators paid 10,000 and made a profit of 158,000 over that. The eastern european donors were hoodwinked, and once on foreign soil, held at gunpoint to “donate.” Rabbis were very much involved in holding the gun to their heads, literally. A light to the world? A nation of priests? Why is it that individual jews
furnish so much material for anti-semitic canards? Madoff anyone?
Hey Phil,
I imagine you’ll have something to post about this horrifying tidbit below, from today’s Washington Post. One guess who the ‘vulnerable people’ might be. Truly, truly sickening and horrifying. (And, I hate to say it, it reminds me of that Turkish movie from a few years ago…)
“A Brooklyn man, Levy-Izhak Rosenbaum, known in his circles as “the kidney salesman,” was also arrested as part of the sweep and charged with enticing vulnerable people in Israel to sell one of their kidneys for $10,000, and then charging waiting transplant patients in this country up to $160,000. He admitted brokering kidney sales for a decade, federal prosecutors said in the complaint. ”
link to washingtonpost.com
This could not in good will be done without looking at the “volunteer donors” most around the outskirts of the Ukraine, as less than human. I guess for the rabbis involved the Talmud was their north star in the sky.
Jim Baker 8:22
… and you just have to reconcile yourself and the vast majority of Palestinians and Israelis, or Arabs and Israelis, to the idea that the absolutists on each side have got to be overcome.
I absolutely agree with Mr. Bakers diagnosis. The problem is that the Israeli political establishment has been steadfastly in favor of colonizing the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 1967. ‘Negotiations’ with the PLO/PA have only lead to acceleration of Israeli creeping ethnic cleansing and colonization, with the full approval and cooperation of the Israeli political establishment including state institutions like the IDF, JNF, the Israeli Interior Ministry, and the Jerusalem Municipality. There are NO Israeli political leaders waiting in the wings to swoop in and save the day. Whatever their disagreements, and they have many, when they are in power, when it counts, they are united in supporting colonization. Mr. Baker’s ‘absolutists’ on the Israeli side comprise the entire government and currently most of the population.
I think it staggeringly unlikely that any Israeli government will be willing and able to remove Jewish colonies from the OPT under any circumstances. There is also zero chance it will happen without both a deadly serious threat by the American government, i.e. by President Obama with majority support in Congress and the Democratic Party, to completely end the ‘special relationship’, and massive intervention by American Jewish social and political institutions like AIPAC, ZOA and CPMAJO to provide ‘within the family’ pressure to change. I think that it is pure fantasy to think that either of these preconditions is going to be met before Israel becomes a pariah state, but I hope that I am mistaken. Make no mistake: that process is already well underway.
Mr. Baker’s statement identifying ‘Palestinians’ and ‘Israelis’ left out one other indispensable player in this drama: American Jews. American Jewish institutions have been fundamental to enabling Israeli colonization and other mistakes that prevent progress towards peace. American Jews have decisions to make. Are you going to ‘overcome’ your absolutists, the pro-colonization extremists who claim to speak for and act on behalf of your entire community? Both prerequisites require this; the alternative is a pariah apartheid Israeli state that no amount of public relations, even in the United States, will be able to excuse. There has certainly been some laudable progress lately. However, harsh reality requires that it must be evaluated against what needs to be done to change before it is too late a political trajectory along which extremist Israeli leaders are fast pushing forward, not against what has already been done.
Thats why Obama’s current stand, insisting that Israel (likud) stop construction of new settlement areas.
The tipping issue.
It would help if it were voluntary, rather than Netanyahu kicking and screaming, and threatening to sever elements of the relationship. Talk about shooting one’s foot.
Actually, it’s Likud,Labor & Kadima (Israel).
It’s been the same settlement policies irregardless of the party in power.
Similar, not the same.
Likud,Labor & Kadima (Israel) have the same basic view. The extent to which their stated platforms and missions are not similar have very little impact on the major umbrella problems impacting Palestinians. Even among the Nazis there were
advocate groups fighting amongst themselves–this actually continued through the duration of the 12 year rule; Witty is as usual ignoring the macros and feasting on
on his selected micros. Talmudic until the end, this Richard Witty.
Likud, Kadima and Labor have different emphases and different willingness to negotiate and compromise.
It is like the difference between Republican and Democrat. (Labor and Kadima seem very similar to me.) Relative to revolutionary parties, they seem “the same”. I think that is ludicrous.
I don’t hold ANY hope for revolutionary approaches to succeed at much, certainly not at this issue. And, the difference between Likud and Kadima or labor is significant.
These are old windbags wasting time.
“Freedom for Palestine will not come as a result of a solution imposed by the U.S., Europe, or any other power: it will come from a struggle for liberation waged on the ground–both in Palestine, and in the region surrounding it–or it will not come at all. A solidarity movement that is genuine must find effective ways to support that struggle.” -The New England Committe to Defend Palestine
The U.S. has a responsibility to what’s in her best interest and that is to withdraw funds from Israel. No one needs the US to broker peace, invent a peace process, bring leaders together or any of that nonsense. Just stop aiding the Zionist terrorist statelet, and walk away.
“Yes, but the Palestinians must be confident that land for peace really means land.”
Absolutely. Israel can’t achieve peace by getting what it wants then breaking other components of its agreements.
But, the left has to read what Israel actually agreed to, and judge from that. Its often different than what dissenters hoped Israel agreed to.
So far, Israel has agreed to very little; what it has not agreed to stop has been constantly illustrated for over forty years. The creed is in the deed.
And the deed is in the context of relationship.
Israel has already achieved peace. Their citizenry leads a completely safe and secure life. They pay absolutely no price at all for their massacre and dispossession of the Palestinians.
Why should the Israelis make peace?
They have it already.
no they don’t. Israelis don’t have peace. That’s what the suicide bombers are all about. Or were. It’s not very useful now but it was. It gets the players to the table. It makes many Israels find new “homelands” I guess that is the US now. Israel plundered Palestine touristry and violence causes tourists to go elsewhere so that Israel feels it. It keeps the Israeli public uneasy. It makes them sick and tired. It causes some of them to feel the pain of loss and horror like Palestinians have been made to experience. It keeps the public aware of the Palestinians existence even if they don’t like it. But the “squeaky wheel gets the oil.” It drains the American’s tax dollars for Israel to have to keep fighting everyone to get what they want. One day people will catch on that the Palestinians are not going away and pressure Israel to do something like…give something up. Which they will NEVER do but then when Americans ask “well why not?” they start to realize the agenda is about genocide and always has been. One day Americans will realize they don’t even like Israelis so what are they paying for? They may not like Arabs either but the Arabs are in the Arab world. Israelis are not. The whole Zionist scheme is already showing cracks.
Israelis are not Arabs in the Arab world, I meant. They are misfits. Square pegs in a round hole. Foreigners. Strangers. They can’t even make a decent falafel.
israelis should have absolutely no security at all. It should be much too dangerous to leave your house in Israel for any reason. People should be getting blown to bits on an hourly basis. Then the game changes. But one dead Israeli every couple years or so? That can never bring them to the bargaining table. They are more than prepared to pay that price if that’s what it takes to continue their land theft and Nazi subjugation of Palestine. Apologies if such talk is uncouth. It’s only a matter of pragmatism. The worst thing we can do is delude ourselves.
Hey, callin’ Isaelis Nazis is one thing, but that falafel crack was way below the belt….. (Yes, I know you didn’t call them Nazis, but I think it makes the joke work better)
If you’re ever in Wheaton, MD head over to Max’s. They snagged two or three Israelo dudes to run the falafel bar. Pretty good IMHO. Different from the ones at the local Lebanese place, but good – lots of fresh toppings.
I do agree with you that the foreign welfare should end. Charity begins at home. Maybe a modified Ron Paul stance, cut off the money going out, but use it for U.S. citizens who are in need if the government controls it. Else let us decide where we want our charitable dollars to go.
Former President Jimmy Carter has been committed to Peace in the middle east for a very long time. James Baker has tried. Scowcroft, Bryzinski all saying you have to “talk…talk…talk”
The settlements are a huge huge problem. Israel refuses to budge. That has been the biggest problem. “occupy and colonize” that is the biggest problem
For the Jews, the biggest problem is Palestinian terrorism. For the Palestinians, the biggest problem is that Jews breathe freely in the Middle east.
Gee, Saxon, here’s a solution: drop white phosphorous bombs on the women and children of Gaza. That’s what the “most moral army in the world” would do, wouldn’t it?
Carter
” most of the settlements in history were made during the time of President Clinton
@ Witty
“And the deed is in the context of relationship.”
The deed or omission determines the relationship.
Otherwise you are just mentally masturbating.
Equal treatment is the goal.
Not treating a different group as a less worthy Other.
Israel is responding to context, to which Palestinians respond, to which Israel responds.
It is relationship, a conflict, NOT resolvable through solely the political logic that assesses only a repression.
Citizen,
In advocating for “equal treatment”, I hope that you will change from your prior solely blameful treatment.
Equal treatment. Absolutely. I’m all for it.
Israelis SHOULD be dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and see their lives torn to shreds before their eyes as they are forced to become refugees.
Israelis SHOULD be terrorized from the land they try to farm.
israelis SHOULD be bombarded with white phosphorus and SHOULD have their medical teams shot dead by snipers.
Israel SHOULD have its hospitals and schools bombed. israel SHOULD have its cities smashed to ruins. They SHOULD be left to stifle in the sumer heat and they SHOULD be denied any humanitarian assistance.
Elected Israeli leaders SHOULD be arrested and thrown into dungeons to be tortured.