I did a post yesterday, in the moment, foolishly giving Obama a break, prospectively, if Israel is to bomb Iran. Two of my intellectual betters demurred. Jack Ross:
I'm closer to Antony Loewenstein than to you on this one. If it happened, Obama's responsibility would depend on how one defined the word; what might matter more is how he responded after the fact. Biden was just trying to speak diplomatese and doing badly, with Mullen coming in to do it better. As a rule in all things, I totally don't get why a large section of the media, especially on the right, jumps up and down hysterically whenever Biden has a senior moment.
David Bromwich:
If Obama commands or consents to the bombing of Iran, he is responsible. Moral judgment is only intelligible as moral if you infer the motive from the action. You can't read in the motive you are comfortable with "against the very grain of" actions. That way lies a no-fault system of self-justification. It is the same argument the apologists for the Iraq war use to justify Bush. (Obama in Iran, of course, would be not a whit less guilty than Bush in Iraq, who also had the lobby to contend with). A version of the same argument has been offered by willfully sympathetic liberals to palliate the monstrous acts ordered by Cheney, Addington, Haynes, etc., on the ground that these men did what they did out of a "deep concern for their country." Obama unhappily is one of the people who have spoken that excuse for them. But, morally, we are what we do--not what we say we meant. And this must hold so long as moral identity has any meaning. If I do a thing but later say that I did not mean to and would have preferred not to, the person who extends his approval to me for my good intentions has drained the word "I" of all meaning.
The list of your intellectual betters is quite extensive, but do you think you gain prestige by throwing names around? It only makes you look more desperate and small than you actually are, Weiss.
Bromwich is close. "But, morally, we are what we do–not what we say we meant." Most Neocons believe that if they shout their marketing slogans loud enough "Democracy in the Mideast", that whatever outcome, a million dead, 2 million displaced, bankrupt US economy can be swept under the rug. Morally, we are the outcome of our deeds, is a better measure. That's what makes Bush, Perle, Feith, et cetera modern, though unpunished, war criminals.
That makes Israel the 51st state of the US. It is an independant state, as it should be. Obama has stated clearly to Israel and to the world, that it regards bombing Iran as NOT in the US interest, as much as Iran's credibility is in the toilet currently. "Intellectual betters?"
"Intellectual betters?" I know, I shouldn't but I can't resist. ;) You understand the meaning. No? You also get it's slightly tongue-in-cheek? Or more precisely one of those typically Weissian statements meant to escape your attempts at nailing them down? But why does this wonderful coinage draw your attention? Too ambiguous? It would have been better, he had simply admitted he has morally failed? Or would you agree this fits David Bromwich? But you object its use for Jack Ross too? None of the above?
As a rule in all things, I totally don't get why a large section of the media, especially on the right, jumps up and down hysterically whenever Biden has a senior moment. They can't forgive Obama the clever move to take Biden into the race when they almost had him out. Remember their absolute trump card: "unexperienced" started to work. Big irony given the history of all these experienced people in the Bush admin, to not forget Bush himself. The rest of anti-Obamanica was simply hardly covered racism, but "experience" seemed to make sense to a broader non-bigoted crowd. Ironically I don't think this could have happened to Obama, but he surely would see his answers just as distorted. Basically one can only hope that Harper's rumor below that the White House intervened against Sidney Blumenthal's move into State had to do with the fact that the White House realized the "experienced" Vice desperately needs someone to brief and train him for all upcoming media events, and they decided they need Blumenthal for themselves. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyranni...
Maybe it's because I am in a country where the leader of the country also has ultimate responsibility for all that happens, but if Obama does not like Biden's "senior" moments, then Biden should be replaced. Nothing would say I do not approve of Biden's trash talk (or if we are charatable – "senior's moment") like saying "Biden has served his country well. We are sorry that he wishes to retire…" If it really is a senior's moment, then Biden is not fit for the job he runs. If he is maintained in his current position, then he represents Obama and the United States – senior's moments and all.
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The significance of the insistence that Obama is responsible for Israel's actions makes that a permanent equation. Its not true.
Also, once you say "I wipe my hands of Obama", you divorce yourself from voice. You fall on your sword a second time.
Every Israeli jew gets more per annum per capita from the US government than any US citizen. Israel has as many sweetheart deals from the USA federal government as any US state–actually more. Israel is afforded more blank checks than any US state. Wake up. Anyone can google the applicable information. Lots of it has been posted here in this blog over the last two years. Witty has just ignored it all along.
We give Israel 8 million dollars a day directly and without condition. We actually give Israel much more and provide it's government with tons of special deals and exemptions or de facto exemptions. What other country can defy our intellectual property rights laws? Has a guaranteed oil source from us? Gets to contract directly with our private contractors without going through a maze of vetting hoops? Gets better equipment than our own troops on demand? Israel has health insurance for all, and the 4th strongest military in the world. How's the health insurance in the USA? The USA would aid Israel before it would aid another New Orleans disaster.
Don't forget we give Egypt billions each year just to kiss Israel's ass. That's part of the indirect aid to Israel. Compare the foreign aid to Israel and Egypt to the balance of ALL foreign aid we give annually.
No. You work for a third way, no matter how hopeless it seems, e.g., support Kucinich or Paul or Nader full tilt, simply to encourage their ideas regarding foreign policy in the Middle East especially. You will be more convinced because if Obama cannot tell the AIPAC people they don't rule, than nobody can, or ever will.
I give my children money, some of which they spend on needed things like food, rent, books. Some, they spend on things that I don't particularly approve. I will continue to give without condition. If they bought or used guns with the money, I'd stop giving them money.
Neither of their approaches are superior in my mind. IF they won, they would face the same mix of responsibilities to maintain order as well as pursue a definition of justice.
As long as liberal Jews and "progressives" pretend that there is something redeemable about Israel, blame for bombing Iran would lie with them. If progressives, realists, and patriotic Americans want the insanity to stop, they must demand that the IDF be declared a terrorist organization and that anti-terrorism laws be enforced equally on Jews and non-Jews: Holy Land Foundation (Re)trial: A Decent Respect, Part III.
by that analogy, the us is israel's sugar daddy.
Yes it is. Where would Israel be today without USA support? True it's also the responsibility of US congress. But if you have to pick one person, the POTUS is responsible for supporting Israeli criminality.
You say you give your kids allowance sans condition. Next you say you do have conditions. Your point is you love unconditionally so long as your love is not really tested. That's like the First Amendment; if you agree with what is said, no problem; if you don't, you toss out that Amendment's guarantee. How about if they used heretofore secret guns to defend against a burglary of your home?
You say that because you know their is bipartisan agreement that nobody should be critical of Israel in public. If one of those mentioned third party candidates won, justice would actually have some meaning in USA foreign policy in the Middle East.
Hey, when we contact our congress reps and merely demand that our own government's policy on settlements be enforced we are either ignored, or given Hasbara talking points. You know this, ThorsProvoni, so what do you suggest next?
I will try to put some basic talking points up on my blog. Lately, I focus on three points: 1. The cost of Israel to the USA: $6 trillion and rising fast as well as subsidies running somewhere between $60-100 billion/year. 2. Differential enforcement of laws as well as the general damage being done to the social-political system. 3. After the Gaza Rampage, why isn't the IDF on the list of officially designated terrorist organizations, and why is a creature of the AJCom like Stuart Levey making US policy in this area?
Let it be confusing to you.
Do you really live in such a fantasy world? Do you think that England thinks positively of its embassy staff in Iranian prisons?
What a ridiculous analogy. Typical Witless.
You are responsible for your. Israel is not the responsibility of the US. Like you said, if your chilren bought guns with the money you gave them, you'd stop. The US rewards Israel's bad behavioir.
No. I know that is always your intent, to confuse and obfuscate any objective analysis. You're a whole Talmud careening around back and forth inside your head, never questioning your basic assumptions. Endless reams of superficiality crapped out of both ends. We are not confused by you at all. Know thyself.
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Joachim, I have contacted my congressional reps with such information; again, they ignore my specifics and send me generalized hasbara talking points. And when I follow up, they ignore me completely. Now what? Nevertheless, please do put some basic talking points on your blog. But consider what I say here for that is the reality for average citizens. Only once did I get a phone flunky response, and we went around and around, and then the differing POVs ended up with the USS Liberty incident–the rep flunky stuck like a broken record after I brought out all the information I had collected–she kept saying the ship was not flying a US flag at the time of the attack. She completely bought the cover up line of horrible accident. Incidentally, she was the daughter of an Albanian immigrant and completely bought all hasbara talking points.