The reverberations of the protest against the Toronto International Film Festival’s City to City program with Tel Aviv continue to be felt, and American Jewish organizations have started to respond to the controversy. The first comment came from Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center:
As a filmmaker and member of the Academy, I can tell you that this is nothing less than a call for the complete destruction of the Jewish State. There can be no other interpretation when the legitimacy of Tel Aviv is called into question. If every city in the Middle East would have the cultural diversity, the freedom of expression, and treat its citizens, Jews and Arabs, the way Tel Aviv does, peace would have come to the Middle East long ago.
Israel is accused of being an apartheid state because it did what every other country in the world would do – defend its citizens against an eight month rocket barrage launched by Hamas terrorists. Let’s be honest, the signatories to this protest may have been filmmakers, authors, directors and actors, but it is clear that the script they are reading from might as well have been written by Hamas.
Understated as usual.
The JTA then reported that J Street and B’nai B’rith International had issued statements condemning the protest. B’nai B’rith International misrepresented the protest as a boycott, when in fact a boycott hadn’t been called for. Their statements begins, "Several prominent names in the film industry, including Jane Fonda, Danny Glover, and about 50 others, signed a petition to boycott the Toronto International Film Festival because of the event’s focus on Tel Aviv-based film makers." This is a mistake about the protest that has been repeated in several places (including here on Mondo). It is understandable inasmuch as John Greyson did pull his film from the festival in protest, but the Toronto Declaration actually makes it very clear that they are not calling for a boycott of the festival:
We do not protest the individual Israeli filmmakers included in City to City, nor do we in any way suggest that Israeli films should be unwelcome at TIFF. However, especially in the wake of this year’s brutal assault on Gaza, we object to the use of such an important international festival in staging a propaganda campaign . . .
The JStreet statement does refer to the action correctly as a protest, and finds it "shameful and shortsighted." They then make the odd choice to conflate a statement from the Film Festival’s co-director opposing the protests with the protest itself:
We were also dismayed by the Toronto International Film Festival’s co-director’s statement that Tel Aviv is “contested ground.” Anyone that questions Tel Aviv’s legitimacy as an Israeli city either needs a geography lesson or doesn’t believe in the two-state solution, which is the only way to secure Israel as a Jewish democracy and provide the Palestinians with a state of their own.
So JStreet opposes both the protest and the opposition to the protest? I’m confused. Actually JStreet is making a similar error to the Wiesenthal center by claiming the protests are questioning Tel Aviv’s "legitimacy." The protest statement does not do that, but it does seek to place Tel Aviv and its history in their rightful place in the conflict instead of in the de-contextualized bubble where they usually reside. From the Declaration:
Tel Aviv is built on destroyed Palestinian villages, and that the city of Jaffa, Palestine’s main cultural hub until 1948, was annexed to Tel Aviv after the mass exiling of the Palestinian population. This program ignores the suffering of thousands of former residents and descendants of the Tel Aviv/Jaffa area who currently live in refugee camps in the Occupied Territories or who have been dispersed to other countries, including Canada. Looking at modern, sophisticated Tel Aviv without also considering the city’s past and the realities of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip, would be like rhapsodizing about the beauty and elegant lifestyles in white-only Cape Town or Johannesburg during apartheid without acknowledging the corresponding black townships of Khayelitsha and Soweto.
Unfortunately JStreet didn’t just leave it at a statement. Beginning last night, it has been circulating the following email:
—– Original Message —–
From: Jeremy Ben-Ami
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:11 PM
Subject: Pro Israel Pro Peace Community Responds to Toronto Film BoycottJeremy Ben-Ami and Lilly Rivlin (as individuals) are collecting signatures on the letter below regarding the Toronto Film Festival. We feel it is very important for the pro-Israel, pro-peace community to clearly articulate the lines that we will defend when it comes to actions that de-legitimize the state of Israel itself. If you would like to join us in this statement, please email your approval to add your name (and affiliation for identification purposes) to the letter to Isaac Luria [J Street campaigns director].
We are trying to gather the names of 100 prominent Jewish Americans who are writers, academics, rabbis, activists and prominent thought leaders of our community.
We intend to deliver the letter by Monday and to apprise the media of the signatory list.
Please feel free to pass this effort along to others of your colleagues/acquaintances whose voices would add to the scope of this call.
Thanks so much for your consideration.
September 9, 2009
Paul Atkinson, Chairman of the Board
Piers Handling, Director and CEO
Toronto International Film Festival
2 Carlton Street, Suite 1600
Toronto, ON M5B 1J3 CANADADear Messrs. Atkinson and Handling,
We, the undersigned, thank the Toronto International Film Festival for choosing Tel Aviv for its inaugural City-to-City spotlight and to indicate our support for you as Jews who support a just and speedy two-state resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Israel’s growing and internationally recognized film industry, centered in Tel Aviv, is rightly a source of pride for many Israelis and others, like us, who care about Israel. Through their art, Israeli filmmakers are presenting the world with a rich picture of Israel’s complex and layered society that goes deeper than simplistic headlines.
We find protests and criticism such as that leveled at the Toronto International Film Festival’s decision to showcase Tel Aviv’s film industry shameful and shortsighted.
The cause of peace will not be served by demonizing Israeli film and filmmakers as being part of the “Israeli propaganda campaign.” In fact, anyone who actually watches popular Israeli films would know that the films are often vigorously critical of Israeli government policy.
Some critics say their objection is to the Israeli government’s role in promoting the films and not the films themselves. Israel, like some European governments, supports its film industry financially and does not employ any political litmus test to determine which films receive funding. Some of your critics, it appears, would have us believe that Benjamin Netanyahu personally selected these films for maximum propaganda effect. That, of course, is absurd.
We must also, however, express our dismay at the statement by the Toronto International Film Festival’s co-director that Tel Aviv is “contested ground.” Just as we firmly believe that a Palestinian state must be established in territory beyond the pre-1967 borders, we hope that Tel Aviv’s legitimacy as an Israeli city has been long established. Recognizing both these facts is essential to realizing a two-state solution, which is the only way to secure Israel as a Jewish democracy and provide the Palestinians with a state of their own.
We urge those protesting Tel Aviv’s selection to reconsider their actions. And we urge the Toronto International Film Festival to stand strong in the face of efforts to turn their artistic celebration into a political fight.
Sincerely,
SIGNATURES GO HERE
This seems to be crossing a line. First the charge that the protest works to "de-legitimize the state of Israel itself" strikes me as totally unfounded and seems more off of Rabbi Hier’s script than J Street’s usually measured statements. Maybe they are referring to the Festival’s co-director’s statement, but again, that has nothing to do with the protest itself. Second, and more disturbing, this letter seems to mirror the tactics of the traditional Israel lobby which seeks to cut off any critical debate over Israel and the history of the conflict. There are many of us who hoped J Street would be different. Now that J Street has been dubbed "The New Israel Lobby," here’s hoping this isn’t a sign that they’re planning on adopting the tactics of those that came before them.
Luckily, Jewish Voice for Peace is trying to bring some sanity to the discussion if only by focusing on what the Toronto Declaration actually says, and the history that it refers to. They have released two useful documents on the controversy. The first is a fact sheet "in response to the campaign of disinformation" against the protest letter. It looks at three of the biggest misconceptions around the protest: "1) That the protest letter unfairly singles out Israel; 2) That the letter calls for a boycott of the Film Festival and Israeli films and; 3) That the letter in any way delegitimizes Tel Aviv."
The second JVP document is a response to StandWithUs’s attempt to challenge the history behind the Toronto action. The response includes the very important history of Tel Aviv and its place in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You should check out both of them.
Once again this episode shows that the leaders of the Jewish community would rather try to shut down debate rather than engage with the complicated and contentious nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Thankfully, there are organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace that are trying to grapple with issues that have to be faced.
J Street has it right.
Jewish Voice for Peace is rationalizing.
No. You have it upside down.
What’s going on in these sorts of debates has two components–first, some people want to tell the unvarnished truth about the conflict and when that happens, people on both sides (including self-proclaimed peace advocates) get upset. I’ve had people upset at me for saying that Palestinians bear some of the guilt for the conflict and have committed morally and legally indefensible attacks against civilians–obviously true, but if you insist on a simple morality play one is supposed to blame only one side. People like you, Richard, claim to be in the peace camp, but you have a similar reaction when your own ox is gored. You seem to think that only certain groups can be criticized–rightwing Palestinians (Hamas), rightwing Israelis, and leftwing Americans who are more critical of Israel than you like to hear.
As for why some of us insist on telling the full truth, there are several reasons for this. First, it matters for its own sake. Second, it’s necessary in the path to reconciliation that people not lie to themselves about the crimes of their own side (and this applies to liberal Zionists who want to put all the blame on rightwingers and on the Palestinians). And finally, it’s part of the power struggle. People who want to suppress part of the truth want to maintain an advantage in determining what the final settlement looks like. Slant the truth and you can slant the outcome.
In your case you believe (and I tend to agree ) that a two state solution is the only one achievable and you also seem to prefer it anyway. So you don’t want people talking about any fact that might lead people to possibly lean towards a one state solution. And you accuse people who go further than you of being opposed to peace.
I’m glad you used the term “seem”, rather than stating some knowledge of my expression.
I find elements of the one-state solution appealing. Certainly the implication of mutual acceptance required.
What I object to is the insistence on getting to mutual acceptance by mutual contempt (ala BDS).
If you hear advocacy for Israeli “advantage” in my comments, then you are listening to your own thinking, not to my comments.
I advocate for MUTUAL CONFIDENCE. That is different than advantage, and it is very different than “get them on the run” that some of the anti-Zionist and some anti-semitic advocate.
Google my name and you’ll see a variety of posts.
So will the Palestinians, apparently.
Israel’s own actions delegitimatized it at its birth, and it is high time this fact is recognized by the world.
Actually the oppossite. Israel established primary law with equal due process, courts, police, social services, education, infrastructure development, voting rights, universal health care.
You are apparently ignorant as to what constitutes a functioning society.
Israel’s laws may look lovely on paper, but its actions reveal the truth. For years, Arab citizens were subject to discriminatory curfews, land confiscations and restricted in their movements – anything but equality. A functioning society does not expel one group of its citizens from their homes and move another group into them.
But even before there were Israeli laws, there was the expulsion of a quarter-million residents of Palestine and the refusal, despite international law, to allow them to return to their homes. This is the original sin of Israel, for which it has never atoned and always refuses to acknowledge.
It wasn’t just Arabs.
It was sephardic and Falashas, and often the poor.
Good skeleton, in need of nutrients and exercise, not of death.
Richard Witty – if your reply #9 is to my reply, it doesn’t seem to be relevant.
This unthreaded software is unfortunately the death of discourse in this place.
‘As a filmmaker and member of the Academy, I can tell you that this is nothing less than a call for the complete destruction of the Jewish State. ‘
what this biut of hysteria means is the end of israel as a jews only state. Its pathetic to see rthe Wiesenthal centre effectively defending the sort of apartheid we saw in nazi germany and its aryan state.
As for israel’s ‘legitimacy’..is it legitimate? It certainly hsa no legal foundation:
‘There can be no other interpretation when the legitimacy of Tel Aviv is called into question. If every city in the Middle East would have the cultural diversity, the freedom of expression, and treat its citizens, Jews and Arabs, the way Tel Aviv does, peace would have come to the Middle East long ago’
Then theytry to turn attention away from the apartheid of telk aviv an jerusalem. Every jewish spokesman for the state is always telling us how arabs and jews are treated equally: which is a barefaced lie….just ask any arab in israel…if you can find foreign journalists who will be allowed in to ask them.
‘There can be no other interpretation when the legitimacy of Tel Aviv is called into question.”
Typical paranoid Zionist bullshit. The “legitimacy” of Manhattan is constantly called into question, given that it was acquired by fraud. No one regards this a “call for the dissolution of the US.” What it is, is facing the truth.
As long as Israel continues to deny the truth about its origins, to cover it up, to criminalize mention of the Nakba, to refuse legitimacy to the narrative of their victims, they will never know peace. Instead, it will continue to produce the living lies that we see posting here on this site.
‘So JStreet opposes both the protest and the opposition to the protest? I’m confused. ‘
im not.
Jstreet is supposed to be an alternative to AIPAC… but in the end kits just as racist as AIPAC : as jstreet tells us: the two state ‘solution’ is a form of apartheid, and they endorse israels apartheid.
‘Recognizing both these facts is essential to realizing a two-state solution, which is the only way to secure Israel as a Jewish democracy and provide the Palestinians with a state of their own”
jewish democracy? Aryan democracy….
what could be clearer???
I’m not sure exactly where to post this comment, but here goes:
link to foxnews.com
rel=”nofollow”>Jim Traficant Lays the Smack Down on the Zionist Lobby
“I believe that Israel has a powerful stranglehold on the American government. They control both members of the House … and the Senate, they have us involved in wars of which we have little or no interest … If they don’t beat you at the polls, they’ll put you in prison…. They’re controlling much of our foreign policy, they’re influencing much of our domestic policy.”
Queue,
I watched the entire interview with Traficant, and I was very impressed. I imagine a lot of Americans will also be impressed with his willingness to tell the truth, and perhaps the tide will continue to change, and a politician who was destroyed by AIPAC and the Lobby will come back and be reelected. Let’s face it; in the past, only those politicians who have recently retired from politics have had the gumption to open their mouths and state the facts about the Israeli Occupation of Congress. Times are changing. Smart Jews like Phil Weiss have come to the realization that the arrogant, underhanded manipulations and political actions of organized Jewish groups will eventually ricochet and hurt all American Jews as a whole, just as it has done throughout history. American Jews should be encouraged to open their mouths in opposition to AIPAC, Israel, the ADL, the Simon Weisenthal Center, etc. These groups are NOT GOOD FOR THE JEWS.
FPM
Traficant’s only misstep was characterizing Israel as a Democracy. Other than that, great work. He’s a politician, to be sure (obviously loves to hear himself speak), but he speaks the truth on the most important issue of our time, and that’s enough for me.
Incidentally, it’s getting a lot of positive play amongst the Ron Paul crowd, who are quite actively engaged in the political scene. Good momentum.
link to dailypaul.com
Dan,
Thanks for making that point; actually, the idea that he misspoke when he agreed with the interviewer that Israel was a democracy and an ally of the US DID register as I watched the interview, but it got sublimated in my mind by the overall surprise I had over seeing someone treat the subject with such candor and a total lack of the hysteria that usually accompanies it.
FPM
Okay, so they took down the video from the FoxNews site and replaced it with a promotional spot. Here’s a new link:
Greta Van Susteren – James Traficant
Hopefully this video will be up a little longer.
Thanks, Queue. Yes, I’ve never heard anything like this on such a major TV news
station. Anyone see anything about this in the MSM in the last couple of days?
‘We feel it is very important for the pro-Israel, pro-peace community to clearly articulate the lines that we will defend when it comes to actions that de-legitimize the state of Israel itself”
so what Jstreet is saying is that pro-israel being anti-arab. = ‘jewish democacy’…Peace will come when there are no more arabs in israel or in jerusalem…Hence their ‘pro-israel pro-peace stance.
What is the US was to call its an aryan democracy? being pro-US and pro-peace….
Jstreet needs to be confronted over their ideological standpoint.
Jstreet is AIPAC lite.
Tirtzu:
‘As Goes Israel, so goes America and Canada. Those who live in Occupied native Indian lands of America and Canada should think twice before they try to ethnically cleanse the Jewish people from their historic and native homeland of Israel’
Two wrongs dont make a right…. But i see how you are trying to silence critics.
The palestinian arabs not the israeli jews are the native peoples. You should think twice about that before you go to far in endorcing ethnic cleansing.
Mondoweiss wants to have it both ways: celebrate the protest (and conflate it with other BDS efforts) and then tell J street that they aren’t allowed to defend Israel and Tel Aviv, because they are too similar to Rabbi Hier. J Street believes in a two state solution and the rhetoric of the protest letter plus the fact sheet put out by JVP are not oriented towards a two state solution. If you want J street to join the one state movement and join hands with JVP you are barking up the wrong tree. J street is not squelching debate they are engaging in debate.
Tel Aviv is a great Jewish city, just as is Beit El, Gaza city and Hevron. The Jewish people have built our land and even though it hurts some Jews who are not exactly comfortable with their own identity, we will continue to build and thrive in the entire land of Israel.
Your record is stuck, Hasbara Bird.
Thanks for clearing that up ImTi. I’d been wondering why I oppose theft, murder, ethnic cleansing and Jewish supremacism in Palestine. Now I know it’s because I’m “not exactly comfortable with my own identity”. Your work is done. You can move along now. Just curious, why does a Revisionist like you have a Herzlian handle? Wouldn’t something like say “IronWall” have been more appropriate?
wondering jew,
How is the protest letter not oriented towards a two state solution? It doesn’t take a position either way. If you’re referring to the history it includes regarding Tel Aviv, well that’s going to have be acknowledged and reckoned with regardless of what the solution looks like. Similarly with the JVP materials – are you saying that honestly dealing with the history of Israel/Palestine is not “oriented towards a two state solution”?
The reason I said J Street is trying to squelch debate is because they’re throwing around baseless charges like “de-legitimize the state of Israel itself”. This is meant to intimidate people from continuing to question Israeli policies and history and is clearly the same tactic that Rabbi Hier uses, albeit in a less hysterical manner.
This past summer I argued with a right wing Israel supporter and I said that Obama has about an eight percent chance of reaching a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. He averred that peace would never be reached under Obama. It became clear after a few minutes that this Israel supporter would not have Israel give up the Temple Mount to Palestinian or Islamic or even shared authority. In that case I realized that he was right. Peace would never be reached under Obama.
It is true that admitting the honest history of the Israel Palestinian conflict does not in itself negate a two state solution. But as you can see from the responses on your own web site it certainly tends in that direction. Certainly after a two state solution treaty is signed, individual Israeli Jews will acknowledge the history of Tel Aviv, but if you think there will be a reconciliation commission or something of the sort, then this explains why you consider the two state solution as dead.
J street as a pro peace and pro Israel organization has to walk a tightrope of sorts: they cannot treat the status quo as acceptable, but neither can they accept rhetoric that tends towards the responses that are common in this comments section. Those who signed the protest letter were stating in effect that business as usual cannot continue. J street was stating in effect that the protest letter could not be accepted as business as usual.
I believe that what people here are saying is that J Street is wrong in taking the stand it does, not that they aren’t allowed to take it.
Israel needs to accept that the Truth Will Set You Free. If only they would acknowledge their guilt, the original crime at the establishment of their state, they would be set free from the constant pressure to defend the indefensible, to protect the lie, to wage a constant rear-guard action against justice.
The Catholics would say: Confession is good for the soul. The Jews have something to say about Atonement, as well.
Israel needs to accept that the Truth Will Set You Free. If only they would acknowledge their guilt, the original crime at the establishment of their state, they would be set free from the constant pressure to defend the indefensible, to protect the lie, to wage a constant rear-guard action against justice.
Great point, potsherd. I was raised Catholic, and currently consider myself agnostic (though I don’t like labels), but I just may go back to confession after that!
Great post, Adam. Thank you.
What is interesting, to me anyway, is J street’s reaction. No one was calling for the delegitimatization of Tel Aviv as a Jewish city. What the protestors pointed out is that Tel Aviv is built on the ruins of numerous Palestinian villages and that fact should be recognized.
If J street believes that recognizing the historical fact of ethnic cleansings is equivalent to denying the present reality of Tel Aviv as a Jewish city, then it means J street is still part of the problem and is not working toward a realistic two state solution. If they believe that this problem will be resolved if the Israelis are unwilling to accept what they did in 1948 then they might as well send their children into the west bank as settlers for all the good it will do for a peaceful solution to this mess. Israelis must acknowledge the injustice, that is not the same as rejecting the state of Israel or the city of Tel Aviv. (it does mean that some reparations are in order however).
Excellent point on reparations, syvanen. And I imagine that is one of the many reasons why Israel refuses to acknowledge its past (the primary one being that it’s still in the midst of its colonization – it would be like America apologizing to the Indians before the western expansion).
Israel has set the all-time standard for demanding reparations – it’s beyond ludicrous at this point. There’s no way the Israelis can honestly acknowledge their past without facing enormous demands for reparations, under the precedent they’ve largely set.
Dan,
What’s wrong? Do you have something against the grandchildren of victims demanding reparations for the psychoanalysis that their grandparents’ victimhood
has caused them to undergo?
Ridiculous!!!
FPM
You got the message that the protest letter was meant as statement of illegitimacy of the state of Israel, and of Tel Aviv. Why criticize J Street for getting that message, and differing.
Everyone wants to isolate the legitimacy of Israel from the entire framework of what is happening in the Middle East, however Israel is nothing but a continuation of an entire process of colonialism which is taking place in the whole region. The Euro/American alliance set the framework by the artificial lines of national demarcation, what is taking place in Israel and elsewhere is merely the adjustment within the framework which the “dominants” established.
In rubber stamping the legitimacy of Israel you doom the world to the same course of exploitation and might makes right which is currently wreaking havoc on the planet. It is your acknowledgment that all of the atrocities must stand in their most virulent form, indeed, they must be “improved.” Israel is the eye of the storm and is nothing but a visible focal point, the confluence of interest in promoting empire further in the 21st century.
No matter what corner of the globe you go to dominants are being established in order to secure the continued interest of the few. Those who strangle trade and erect walls of rules which do nothing but pit a tiny portion of the world against the rest and primarily enrich only a few in the process. This is why the “system” is currently collapsing as we post – it is an entire world order gone awry.
As long as people only think in term of what they presume is “their community” interest only, without the acknowledgment of the context there will be no peace in any area of the world. Israel is only a reminder in this region that the “powers that be” will do what they please, no matter who is murdered and destroyed in the process – and that there is no rule of law except that which is convenient to the dominant force.” At the focal point of Israel it says “we have a right to have a racist and apartheid nation, in contradistinction to all know international, domestic law or established tort.”
Normative rules are determined by power relations. Those with power determine what is legal and illegal. They besiege the weak in legal prohibitions to prevent the weak from resisting. For the weak to resist is illegal by definition. Concepts like terrorism are invented and used normatively as if a neutral court had produced them, instead of the oppressors. The danger in this excessive use of legality actually undermines legality, diminishing the credibility of international institutions such as the United Nations. It becomes apparent that the powerful, those who make the rules, insist on legality merely to preserve the power relations that serve them or to maintain their occupation and colonialism.
A Zionist Israel is not a viable long-term project and Israeli settlements, land expropriation and separation barriers have long since made a two state solution impossible. There can be only one state in historic Palestine. In coming decades, Israelis will be confronted with two options. Will they peacefully transition towards an equal society, where Palestinians are given the same rights, à la post-apartheid South Africa? Or will they continue to view democracy as a threat? If so, one of the peoples will be forced to leave. Colonialism has only worked when most of the natives have been exterminated. But often, as in occupied Algeria, it is the settlers who flee.
An entirely flawed analysis.
The idea that Israel or any modernized state in the region or any other region is colonial is ludicrous. That era is long over. The people that reside in all communities do exist in a modern crowded world in which what had been free and/or traditional (including Jewish traditional), has become commercialized and economic.
The starting point is a world long past that stage of transition.
Is that the starting point? A world long past colonialism? So Israel is not of this world, just a piece of science fiction writing?
There is no difference between the below link and what is happening between in Palestine today, even the methodology is the same –
BATTLE
Tel Aviv is just as much in question as the West Bank settlements. They”re both racist settler colonies. And indeed a large part of the purpose of the recent settlements around Jerusalem is to further normalise Tel Aviv and the other earlier settlements. The whole place is an apartheid state.
J Street is wrong here. But I believe they do more good than harm. Maybe they have to do stuff like this to keep their “moderate” constituency loyal. People like me will (hopefully) always sign their petitions if they’re about ending settlements or opposing AIPAC.
I initially signed onto J-Street, started receiving their emails, etc. I got a petition from them one day and after carefully reading it I wrote them an email and removed myself from their mailing list. In a nutshell, it was written in a manner that was completely condescending to Palestinians.
J-Street supports full U.S. military aid to Israel and, as recent examples have shown, it seeks to immediately shut down any debate critical of Israel.
It says it supports a two-state solution, but does not say how, given the facts on the ground, there could ever be a viable Palestinian state (there can’t be).
It is at least a little funny to see people denouncing Rabbi Hier’s comments, and then immediately go on to somewhat validate them by denouncing Israel’s legitimacy.
That’s not to say that Hier isn’t being hysterical and isn’t trying, as Adam says, to intimidate people from questioning Israel’s policies, but, still….
I also think that the constant allusions to things like the U.S.’s displacement of its aboriginal people as justification for what Israel is doing is not only intentionally offensive but essentially meaningless because, clearly, that doesn’t mean we would do so today. On the other hand it does raise the point for those who believe that even Israel proper has no legitimacy of just how far back in history are they in favor of going. Why, for instance, arbitrarily stop at 1947-48 and Israel’s birth to right history’s wrongs? Just how much upheaval of how many millions of present lives should be undertaken so as to correct the actions of those long dead? Surely the number of the living who would be benefitted from such a correction is a factor, but just as surely it can’t be the whole determinant. So who decides after all? Some “Emperor of Historical Right-Setting”?
Israel proper has at least as much legitimacy as any other country I think. And while historically interesting I think dwelling on same detracts from thinking about where its real illegitimacy lies. (Which, some might say, is exactly why people like Hier and Netanyahu are happy to see such dwellings.)
Well of course Sin Nombre, if the present course continues they can just almost totally exterminate the indigenous Palestinians. Than they can be just as “legitimate” as other settler states.
I’m confused – because if the US is willing to bankroll a settler colonialist state – Israel – who says that it is not willing to engage in another round of ethnic cleansing?
If people who are sitting in refugee camps do not have the right to return home then the entire concept is meaningless. To the question of how far back in history is one willing to go – then obviously any length is far too long if first generation victims are to be denied recompense. It is not just 1947-49 – it is also 1967 and today. A crime has been committed. The victims of that crime are still suffering from that crime and you are proposing that maybe we should forget about it?
It is worth noting that Germany is providing compensation and is providing special privileges for Jews who wish to go to Germany.
Other colonialist settler states have repudiated their past and provide full equality to all their members without regard to ethnicity or religion. When Israel does that [ie: Palestinian right of return], then it too will have the same legitimacy as any other country.
Great comment.
(My comment was too short, so here’s some additional letters to pass the spam filters.)
In response to my comment Edwin wrote:
“I’m confused – because if the US is willing to bankroll a settler colonialist state – Israel – who says that it is not willing to engage in another round of ethnic cleansing?”
Edwin, you raise good points but do you really perceive that in the long-reigning political and moral climate it inhabits the U.S. itself would carry out some ethnic cleansing of itself? I.e., I think the U.S. bankrolls Israel’s colonial/ethnic crusade only because the people here don’t understand it given the fog of crap that’s been heaped over the issue.
“The victims of that ['47-48 and '67] crime are still suffering from that crime and you are proposing that maybe we should forget about it?”
No, not at all, just that because the victims still exist doesn’t really deligitimize the state that made them victims, except maybe morally. But not in terms of politico-legal status. My goodness, is there any state today that can say it has not in some way shape or form created some victims? Would *any* state still exist if we said they were illegitimate because some of its past victims are still alive and unrecompensed?
I’m not disagreeing with your sentiments, and in fact think that because of what Israel has and is doing is delegitimizing itself as much as possible. But that deligitmization is on the moral and not politico-legal plane I think. And I suspect you’ll agree that almost no matter what happens in the future the world community is not going to declare Israel proper (that is, Israeli within its pre-’67 boundaries) illegitimate.
Great link, Evil
Smart move by J Street. It will be easy to get the signatures from prominent Jews on this issue and then thy can crow about all the famous Jews that support their agenda.
Every time there is a pro Israel response about some effort to delegitimize Israel Adam cries about it. He can dish it out but can’t take it.
Yet there was no attempt to deligitmise Israel.
Of course there was. Why reference that Tel Aviv is a location of displacement, but not note that White Plains is similarly (of blacks forced out by urban renewal, they were angry too).
I must have missed the part about the Toronto Film Festival spotlighting White Plains. Otherwise, it would really just be a non-sequitur, wouldn’t it?
Let’s mention a whole bunch of other cities that AREN’T being spotlighted in Toronto and argue that it isn’t fair that only the city TIFF is spotlighting is the only one being criticized for being spotlighted. Yeah, that makes tons of sense.
Israel is illegitimate. Israel’s recognition by the UN was supposed to be contingent on the return of the refugees to their homes. Israel refused, and the UN should have denied it recognition, except for the prevailing guilt over the Nazi genocide.
Its a comment to Phil, who lives near White Plains.
Thanks Adam, I almost missed this.
This is who Jewish voices for peace supports.
Tell me they are not sickos for supporting Palestinian sadists like this.
link to israelnationalnews.com
PA TV Celebrates Most Murderous Terror Attack in Israeli History
Gil Ronen
3/13/09
The Palestinian Authority (PA) celebrated the single most murderous attack against Israeli civilians by broadcasting an hour-long special Wednesday on its official television station.
Arabs who penetrated into Israel by rubber dinghies from Lebanon carried out the attack, known in Israel as the Coastal Road Terror Attack, on March 11, 1978. They hijacked a tourist bus and killed 38 civilians, 13 of them children.
PA TV celebrated the attack on the anniversary of the hijacking with an hour-long special. The program included interviews with terrorists who described the planning and implementation of the murder spree.
Palestinian Media Watch reported that the program opened with the narrator glorifying the attack as:
“…one of the most important and most prominent special actions, executed by the Palestinian revolution by sea, on the coast between Haifa and Tel Aviv. This action, which was carried out by a group of heroes and led by the heroic fighter Dalal Mughrabi, had a great impact on continuing events of the Arab-Israeli conflict.”
Mughrabi and 11 other terrorists landed by Zodiac boats on a beach near Ma’agan Michael, north of Tel Aviv. They fatally shot American photographer Gail Rubin who was taking nature photographs nearby, reached the Coastal Highway and commandeered a bus that was carrying Egged bus drivers and their families on a day outing.
Passengers burned alive
The bus continued driving south on the Coastal Road (Highway 2) while the terrorists fired and threw grenades at passing cars, shot passengers and dumped at least one body out of the bus. At one point, they hijacked another bus and forced the passengers from the first bus to board it. An explosion caused either by an exploding fuel tank or a grenade set the bus on fire, killing 38 civilians, 13 of them children. 71 Israelis were wounded.
An article published in the July 10, 2008 edition of the PA’s Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda daily newspaper called Al-Mughrabi “a living legend and a wonderful example for all women.”
Al Jazeera TV also aired a program in 2008 focusing on Al-Mughrabi and extolling her exploits. The focus on the terrorist came on the heels of the transfer of her body to the Hizbullah as part of the ransom for the bodies of IDF soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser
To understand Israel and how correct it is, watch this.
link to youtube.com
link to wnd.com
In an interview with the official PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, April 14, 2000, Abdullah Al-Hourani, chairman of the Palestinian National Council Political Committee, responded to the question, “How do you read the future of the peace process?”
Al-Hourani said: “Whether they return to negotiations or not, and whether they fulfill the agreements or not, the political plan is a temporary agreement, and the conflict remains eternal, will not be locked, and the agreements being talked about are regarding the current balance of power. As to the struggle, it will continue. It may pause at times, but in the final analysis, Palestine is ours from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River.”
Oslo is just the first step in the destruction of Israel, Abd El Aziz Shahian, Palestinian Authority Minister of Supplies, said in an interview May 20, 2000, with Al Ayyam, an Arabic daily in the Palestinian territories.
“The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that the war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land,” he said, referring to the Palestinian Liberation Organization’s base in Tunisia prior to the Oslo process.
The Palestinian minister said his “people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the ’65 revolution,” referring to the founding of the PLO and publication of the Palestinian charter that calls for the destruction of Israel through an armed struggle.
Salim Alo’adia Abu Salam, supervisor of political affairs for the PA, told Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 20, 2000, that “when we picked up the gun in ’65 and the modern Palestinian
Yasser Arafat’s deputy, Othman Abu Arbiah, said “every Palestinian must know clearly and unequivocally that the independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital is not the end of the road. The [rise of] the Palestinian state is a stage after which there will be another stage and that is the democratic state in all of Palestine [in place of Israel].”
Abu Arbiah is Arafat’s aide for political guidance and national affairs and the director-general for national affairs, a senior position in the Palestinian national educational structure.
Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a PA religious leader, said on Palestinian television, Aug. 3, 2001:
“We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya. . . . We will fight against them and rule over them until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone will say: ‘Muslim! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him.’ We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors. .
The Palestinian Arabs are not a sovereign nation, they cannot be signatories to any international law and are thus exempt. This means that their jihad training camps for 5-year olds is untouchably outside the International Law on Abuse of the Child. As is teaching hatred of Jews. As is encouraging children to go into areas of military operations and throw rocks. As is using children, and even babies’ strollers and cribs to hide explosives.
Because the Palestinian Arabs are not a sovereign nation, they are parasitically dependent upon the largesse and good will of others for their existence. They do not have to promote a viable economy, public services, or jobs. All they have to do is riot and murder enough and the world comes rushing in with food, billions of dollars, housing, and health assistance. Meanwhile, the world puts pressure on Israel, the Palestinian Arab’s sworn enemy, to provide them with job opportunities and electricity.
This in and of itself is an absurdity. Did anyone require the Allies of WWII to provide the German people with job opportunities and electricity? Is the U.S. required to open it borders to Mexicans, tear down its fences, and provide Mexico with utilities? Of course not. And the U.S. is not the declared target of annihilation that Israel is to the Palestinian Arabs.
The Palestinian Arabs also have impunity when it comes to murder and war. Nowhere in the annuls of history has any country borne such a sustained and prolonged attack as Israel and not fought back with extreme prejudice. The reason? Because the world consensus is that a group of people without an official country cannot possibly have an army and for Israel to attack them full scale would be considered a crime against humanity. Arafat is wily enough to know that tens of thousands of well-trained, well-paid, well-equipped terrorists can operate as an army, yet with impunity, as long as he doesn’t have an official country.
Even when there is an ‘official’ truce, the Palestinians can and do continue their attacks with impunity from international sanctions. They use their lack of sovereignty as an excuse. It has become a mantra. “It’s not our fault. We cannot control everyone if we don’t have a country and therefore an official police force.”
So here is my suggestion. Israel declares the Palestinian Arabs a sovereign nation on all of the land they now occupy. BUT, Israel also declares that this is not necessarily the final borders or agreements. These can be negotiated. However, the Palestinian Arabs have now gained their own country and have lost nothing. They can have a national anthem, issue currency and stamps and apply for a seat at the UN.
And once the Palestinians have their own country, Israel will no longer be responsible for them. And at the same time, the Palestinian Arabs will suddenly become wholly responsible for their economy, their utilities, their public assistance, their housing, and especially their behavior. This means that when the next Kassam rocket, homicide bomber or shooting attack comes from the new country of Palestinian Arabs and is directed at Israeli territory and/or citizens, Israel will now be able to consider it an official act of war and thus have a green light to destroy terrorists.
ed:
‘;Because the Palestinian Arabs are not a sovereign nation, they are parasitically dependent upon the largesse and good will of others for their existence’
just who is the parasite?
‘For many years the American media said that “Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid” or that “Israel receives $1.2 billion in economic aid.” Both statements were true, but since they were never combined to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel, they also were lies—true lies.
Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that “Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid.” That’s true. But it’s still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.’
etc
link to ifamericansknew.org
now thats what i call a parasite!
‘And once the Palestinians have their own country, Israel will no longer be responsible for them.’
Israel has never behaved ‘responsibily’. From the formation of zionism, its goal has been to remove the native population and replace it with jewish immigrants.
Jim Traficant stated a couple days ago that, all told, it’s about $15 billion now. That’s $30,000 every American pays to Israel. I haven’t been able to verify this number.
brianct, you need to get your facts correct.
Read this article which rebukes every lie you said.
link to middleeastfacts.com
Garbage in, garbage out.
Hey, Mr Zionist Racist, lookit what your ownlittle site says: link to middleeastfacts.com
Genetic studies show that 82% of the Palestinians are close to the Jews. These show that Ashkenazi Jews and especially the Jews originating in the city of Rome, are closer to Saudi Arabian Arabs than the Palestinians are.
My field study, that among many other materials and testiminials is using material found by Yitzhak Ben Zvi, shows already, at this state, 50% of teh entire west of the Jordan Ruver Palestinians that are testifying as to their Jewish origin, and/or have Jewish religious customs and/or have Jewish family names. And we did not survey yet the entire population, but we do not expec tto find much more.
In my geneological-demographic-historic study I reached the numer of 89.5% for the end of 2008. The 85% is a number we reached few years earalier, before we succeeded to be more acurate.
geographical studies that are the most inacurate sho between 65% to 85%.
YOu are invited to read on all the studies in the booklet avaialble in the engagement website:
link to
Furthermore, the settlement of Arab in the Holy land following teh death of Myhammed was nothing more than 4,000, mainly from two tribes. If you are interested in demography over the last 2000 years you are invited to read my book which is also reachabl eto purchase from the site. YOu can fidn there why about 35% of the Palestinians west of the Jordan River lost their knowledge about their Jewish-Israelite origon.
In other words, the real descendants of the Jews are the persecuted group called the Palestinians, that the European colonists are driving out of their ancestral land. The Palestinians are the real rightful heirs of Judea.
Jews kicked out of Arab countries.
link to hsje.org
jes kicked out of arab countries?
or ingathering of the jews:
‘How Israel terrorized Iraqi Jews into leaving Iraq!
‘The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
Chapter 5:
Special Uses of Violence: ‘Cruel Zionism’ or the ‘Ingathering of Iraqi Jewry.
It was the last day of Passover, April 1950. In Baghdad, the Jews had spent it strolling along the banks of the Tigris in celebration of the Sea Song. This was an old custom of the oldest Jewish community in the world; the 130,000 Jews of Iraq attributed their origins to Nebuchadnezzar, the destruction of the First Temple and the Babylonian exile. A good 50,000 of them thronged the esplanade. By nine o’clock in the evening the crowds were thinning out. But on Abu Nawwas street young Jewish intellectuals were still gathered in the Dar al-Beida coffee-shop.
Suddenly, the convivial atmosphere was shattered by an explosion. A small bomb, hurled from a passing car, had gone off on the pavement just outside. By chance no one was hurt. But the incident shook the Jewish community. They were convinced that Iraqi extremists wanted to kill them. The fainter-hearted began to murmur ‘it is better to go to Israel’. The next day there was a rush to the offices where Jews wishing to renounce their Iraqi citizenship had to present themselves for registration. Their right to emigrate had been officially acknowledged by the government on the foot of Purim a month before. Its object was to prevent emigration by illegal means. As the newspapers had explained, ‘the encounters between the police and the emigrant groups showed that some Iraqi Jews do not want to live in this country. Through their fleeing they give a bad name to Iraq. Those who do not wish to live among us have no place here. Let them go.’30 There had been little response. Police officers had appeared at synagogues and explained that all Jews had to do in order to leave Iraq peacefully was to sign the necessary form. But the Jews were afraid that this was a trap to unmask the Zionists among them; and Zionism, under Iraqi law, “was a grievous offence
…
It was not long before a bombshell of a different kind hit the pathetic remnants of Iraqi Jewry. They learned that the three explosions were the work not of Arab extremists, but of the very people who sought to rescue them; of a clandestine organization called ‘The Movement’, whose leader, ‘commander of the Jewish ghettoes in Iraq’, had received this letter from Yigal Allon, chief of the Palmach commandos, and subsequently Foreign Minister of Israel:
Ramadan my brother…. I was very satisfied in learning that you have succeeded in starting a group and that we were able to transfer at least some of the weapons intended for you. It is depressing to think that Jews may once again be slaughtered, our girls raped, that our nation’s honour may again be smirched … should disturbances break out, you will be able to enlarge the choice of defenders and co-opt Jews who have as yet not been organized as members of the Underground. But be warned lest you do this prematurely, thereby endangering the security of your units which are, in fact, the only defence against a terrible pogrom.[31]
The astonishing truth-that the bombs which terrorized the Jewish community had been Zionist bombs-was revealed when, in the summer of 1950, an elegantly dressed man entered Uruzdi Beg, the largest general store in Baghdad. One of the salesmen, a Palestinian refugee, turned white when he saw him. He left the counter and ran out into the street, where he told two policemen: ‘I recognize the face of an Israeli.’ He had been a coffee-boy in Acre, and he knew Yehudah Tajjar from there. Arrested, Tajjar confessed that he was indeed an Israeli, but explained that he had come to Baghdad to marry an Iraqi Jewish girl. His revelations led to more arrests, some fifteen in all. Shalom Salih, a youngster in charge of Haganah arms caches, broke down during interrogation and took the police from synagogue to synagogue, showing them where the weapons, smuggled in since World War II, were hidden. During the trial, the prosecution charged that the accused were members of the Zionist underground. Their primary aim-to which the throwing of the three bombs had so devastatingly contributed-was to frighten the Jews into emigrating as soon as possible. Two were sentenced to death, the rest to long prison terms.
link to iraqsnuclearmirage.com
thats what zionists are capable of.
Let them go back, then.
The UN financed a Palestinian tourist map of the Holy Land, that does not name the State of
Israel, and the entire center of the country. The only Jewish communities that appear on this map, are cities with Arabic names, such as el-Hadarat (Hadera), Ramle, Askelan (Ashkelon), Ashdout (Ashdod) and Tal Arabe (Tel Aviv). The map was discovered by a journalist, David Bedein, from the Israel Resource News Agency. The bottom of the map notes, that its production was financed by the UN’s Development Department, whose offices are located on Yaakobi Street, West Jerusalem. One of the UN officials in the office, confirmed to Bedein, that the map’s production had been financed by his department. The U.N officials who wrote the map, were in close contacts with the PLO. Emanuel Nahshon, a deputy-spokesman in the Foreign Ministry, told Hatzofeh yesterday, that this map was part of the Palestinian propaganda, that was geared to eradicate the State of Israel and delegitimize it.
Ed, sweetie, its been official Israeli government policy since the late 1960s that maps do not indicate the green line separating Israel from the West Bank. So what your are saying is that its OK when Israel lies on maps but not when the Palestinians do it. Typical.
Meet the Green Line
The name Palestine, should not be made available to the Arabs in this area. It is misleading for the Arabs now, claiming a potential state with this name; Its history evidences this: The name Palestine, derived from the Philistines (Philishteen) were invaders from the Agean sea, and unrelated to todays Arabs. The Philistines who were eventually defeated by Samson and King David more than 3000 years ago;
Do we have to repeat history to prove this? The name Palestine was applied by the Romans, directing their old enemy’s name as a chagrin to Jews – it was certainly not directed or bestowed to the Arabs in this area. The name Palestine, in the last 2000 years was never a state – certainly not owned by any people but the Jews: The muslim Turkish Governor’s letters to Hertz, state clearly that “EVERYONE ONE KNOWS THIS IS THE JEWISH HOMELAND, AND WE ARE ONLY THE APPOINTED CARETAKER FOR THE APPOINTED TIME”.
The name Palestine belongs to the Philistines. Being that the Philistines were totally non-muslim people. Israel and all Jews should embark on a legal battle in the same vein, as the defeat of Mr.Irving in London last year. The Arabs have no right to the name Palestine. And if the Palestinians were descendants of the Philistines, then what are they doing in Israel, they should go back to Crete, where they came from.
The Palestinians are descendants of the Judeans, the Samaritans, the rest of the Canaanites.
Remember the Canaanites? The people who were there first?
If we’re playing “go back where they came from,” the descendants of Abram, from Ur in Chaldea, had better pack their bags and buy tickets for Iraq.
There is a lot of support for Jewish cities and Jewish countries. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Are these the same people who supported Arab cities and Arab countries or White cities and White countries? A white Country is threatened by “mixed marriages”, and the Jewish state is threatened by “mixed marriages”.
Do people believe in the right of Jews to practice Judaism or do they believe in the right to Judaism to exist? One is freedom of religion, the other totalitarianism. One can learn to celebrate by diversity, the other is only threatened by it.
The existence of Israel (and Tel Aviv) is a hot issue as the supporters of Jewish totalitarianism are aware that if Israel stops being a racist state it will cease to exist.
Hey Ed give my regards to the reprobates at CAMERA, tell about your meaningless lying verbal diarrhea you spewed on this site.
Hey V, give my regards to the racists at Al Ahram.
Hey Ed, you know why I do not address you? It is because idiots like you are a dime a dozen, with you’re pre-canned spam. It would be like conversing with a retard, you’re repugnance and frivolous lying trash will bring down Israel with a resounding crash.
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