From Alternative Information Center:
According to the Jerusalem online newspaper Mynet, Hebrew University’s Student Union Chairperson, Ofer Raviv, recently recommended that a Separation Wall between the university’s Mount Scopus campus and the nearby Palestinian village of Issawiya be constructed.
Hebrew University officials suggested that such a wall could be financed by the parking meters located on Mount Scopus and the Jerusalem Municipality has agreed to examine this possibility. If implemented, this would be just one more action in Hebrew University’s long tradition of documented institutional participation in the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, this time at the instigation of its official student body.
… Ostensibly as a means for reducing thefts on campus, the wall would serve as one more level of constriction and separation that is already the reality for the Issawiya villagers. Security arguments have long been used by Israel as a means to intensify the occupation and confiscation of Palestinian land.
Thanks to Seham.
Mending Walls; check out the nuance in the classical American poet’s poem,
The entire Hebrew University campus at Mount Scopus is built in occupied east Jerusalem on post-1967 land. So, the proposed wall will essentially be – yet again – dividing occupied land into two parts, one where Jews only reside and another where those pesky Palestinians reside.
What could Montgomery Alabama have looked like in the 50s had the white built walls to “protect” their neighborhoods from blacks?
There goes the neighborhood.
It’s time to call it quits for the day. Ignore my post above.
Ignore my post above.
Walls wouldn’t save Zionist regime from its ultimate destruction. The fall of Berlin Wall and the destruction of the communist regime in East Germany – is the writing on the wall for the Zionazi bigots.
An ‘International War Crimes’ conference was held last month in Malaysia (not reported by the mainstream media) which recommented that Israel’s war criminals be brought to justice in the International court – to save the humanity.
War Crimes Conference
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
Once again, I think my lucky stars that American universities are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like Israeli universities.
how do you figure Chaos? Israeli universities are much closer to US universities than say, the Islamic University of Gaza or Al Azhar. Especially if you want to scope out chicks…… I hear the lady watching @ Al-Azhar took a nose dive w/ the Hamas take-over. unless your into ankles and eyes….
But in all seriousness, what do you know about Israeli Universities?
Well for starters, I know that Palestinians don’t have to cross military checkpoints to get to class at my university. Also? Nobody wants to build a wall to isolate the university from any of the other ethnic groups in the city.
Also? We don’t treat the student union as a female meat market like you do, apparently, so there’s another big difference.
I bet you don’t have to worry about suicide bombers in your student union either, hence the check points. If there were checkpoints pre-2002 there’d be 5 US students who instead of being in coffins would be living a normal life.
link to foxnews.com
(I apologize in advance for the link to fox news)
Fox News? So, yonira, how’s that search for Nigerian yellow cake in Iraq going? While we’re at it, how many Israelis died as a result of suicide bombings yesterday? Or last year, for that matter. Because we can show you quite a lot of pictures of Palestinian schools bombed by Israeli fighter jets.
We are not talking about Gaza we are talking about Hebrew University. Have you taken speech or debate yet at college? usually you try to stay on the same subject matter. I know all about dead kids in Gaza, its a tragedy, but you can’t use that as a retort for everything.
And you are trying to tell me that the suicide bombing attack @ Mt. Scopus didn’t happen because it was reported on fox news? tell that the 5 dead Americans and their families.
At least that many Americans have been killed by the IDF in the intervening time — anti-occupation activists and independent journalists. If five Americans is enough of a price tag for walling up the Palestinians, isn’t it enough to call for the disarmament of a military that targets civilians for death?
So let me get this straight — a lone Palestinian bombing a single Israeli school is always relevant. The entire military might of Israel bombing Palestinian schools left, right and center is not relevant. And yet you’re going to compare Israeli schools to Palestinian schools?
And you haven’t answered my other question. You watch Fox News — what do you think about WMDs in Iraq, then?
Chaos,
WMDs in Iraq were a joke, just like the whole Iraqi war was. I don’t doubt that Israel’s intelligence community supplied some of the intelligence to the US, but it wouldn’t have mattered. War with Iraq was inevitable, flawed intelligence or not.
Fox news is a joke, their international coverage is a bit more legitimate than there worthless partisan domestic coverage. But I assure you, there were 5 US citizens, 2 Israelis, and 80 injured in the bombing @ Mt. Scopus.
“I don’t doubt that Israel’s intelligence community supplied some of the intelligence to the US, but it wouldn’t have mattered. War with Iraq was inevitable, flawed intelligence or not.”
Israeli exceptionalism at its finest! To the point where at least twice as many American men and women had to die than those we lost on 9/11. To say nothing of innocent Iraqis — over a million dead, millions more displaced and the rest living in tatters under an occupation modelled after the way Israelis run things in their occupied territories.
Out of curiosity, do you have dual citizenship?
Yonira, some questions:
1. where is mount scopus? is it in Israel or is it in palestine? if it’s the latter then the casualties of the drone attack (oops, suicide bombing) should have expected the land owner to be a bit angry. I define israel as anything within the green line, BTW.
2. who were those american cand why did they not hid the US warning on travel to a war zone? also, what kind of americans were they? the kind that takes residency in a country judged by the international community to engage in war crimes ? were they sympathizers to the apartheid regime?
3. Supposing the amricans were innocent (kind of john walker was). What’s the difference between them and the collateral damage inflicted by drones on wedding parties? after all, the bomber probably did not intend to kill americans, only occupiers.
Bottom line: if any american goes to mount scopus that’s like supporting the good president of zimbabwe or something. to me it seems like treason.
And do try to remember: 1 Million dead Iraqis is something the israelis cheer every day – nearly all of them as far as I can tell. And THEY are a prime cause of it. This not to mention over 5000 dead american soldiers who were killed in the act of executing Israel’s policy against arabs, except they didn’t know that.
I’d say israel owes a huge compensation to the dead soldiers’ families as well as to the victims of Iraq. Murder is murder, whether directly – as in Gaza and lebanon, or by proxy – through the neocons who infiltrated america’s political class. If you justify the actions of neocons and those of Israel’s attempted take over of america, and are an american citizen then you too should be treated as a traitor. Actually most dual israeli-american citizens should be forced to choose which side they are on, since US and Israel stopped being on the same side ages ago (I’d say since the UUSS liberty).
Bad day here, obviously.
Correction, yonira:
contains a falsehood. There were numerous checkpoints prior to 2002.
Israel instituted a closure system in the occupied territories starting in 1991, prior to Oslo, more than ten years before the suicide bombing at the university. This system got ever more restrictive during the Oslo years, leading to economic distress and frustration on the part of Palestinians which culminated in the initial outbreak of the second intifada in October 2000 . This was met immediately by Israeli militay violence, the firing of over one million IDF bullets in the first few weeks of the uprising, an increase in checkpoints, and a military seige of most Palestinian towns well before the first suicide bomber struck in February of 2001. Checkpoints, closure, land confiscation, house demolitions, restrictions on water, etc, was going on for decades in the occupied territories before the first Palestinian suicide bomber struck Israel.
Its much more likely that those 5 US students wold have been alive today if there HADN’T been checkpoints, and the other oppressive restrictions on the rights of the Palestinians.
Amira Hass has a very detailed history of the origins of the policy here:
ISRAEL’S CLOSURE POLICY: AN INEFFECTIVE STRATEGY OF CONTAINMENT AND REPRESSION Its long but quite informative if you really want to understand the policy and its consequences. I’d recommend you read it, yonira. It would go a long way towards explaining issues that could inform you. It was written in early 2002, months before the July 2002 bombing, and explains how the Israeli closure system started in 1991 and was expanded during the Oslo years.
You might also want to read this from Hass, written in 1999, well before the second intifada.
Ethnic discrimination against Palestinians must end
Here’s a snippet:
Chaos knows nothing about Israeli universities, just as he knows nothing about anything else. He speaks no ME language, has never been there, but that doesn’t prevent him from blabbering about these issues. More or less like everyone else on this blog.
Chaos: “I can see Israel from my house”.
Actually, I’ve taken two semesters of Arabic and a lot of people from the Middle East attend my local university. In fact, one daily witnesses women in head scarfs — it’s become quite normal. It’s also not unusual to take note of people in the Union talking merrily in languages other than English (Arabic among them, certainly, but I think also Pashtun, Hindi or Farsi, as well as Spanish of course, French or German).
I was actually planning a trip to the Middle East over the Christmas holiday, but finances are a bit strained right now; which is a shame because I was also going to attend the Gaza Freedom March. It might still happen, we’ll see.
See not everyone aspires to live in ethnically and religiously “purified” gated communities like Israelis do. Some of us aren’t actually afraid of people who look different or speak differently,,, or have different customs, or ideas.
carnas knows nothing but comes here to insult people anyway, as his only possible contribution
That is funny coming from a big mouth like carnass who does not believe that the Bedouin are a people who exist. The Israelis trying to turn the Negev into some sort of desert playground, just so they can displace them. You give new meaning to kucker carnass, we will move you into the nuclear danger area in Dimonia where the racists send their black population.
Chaos,
when you do get a chance to go to the ME, spend a day in Tel Aviv(I am sure you’ll fly through Ben_Gurion to get to the WB). Its a beautiful and diverse city. Visit Jaffa also, you’ll see many happy Israeli Arabs who are treated very well and with much respect. Visit Hebrew University where again you’ll see diversity at its best.
I know its will be tough to visit the area with an open mind, and I’ve encountered many people who find it impossible, but just give it a try. I do the same when I am there, I usually go with Jewish groups but find it important to go to the WB and visit with Palestinians, instead of going w/ a closed mind and only seeing Jewish Israel. I find myself coming back and speaking to other Jews defending the people who treated me well in the WB.
Yonira? You’re Jewish, dumbass. You aren’t going to get stopped at Ben Gurian airport like the rest of us are. And the fact that you point out that I’d HAVE to go through Israel and tons of military checkpoints to visit Palestine speaks loads.
This Jaffa you refer to, this would be the one that had large swaths of it depopulated and demolished to make way for a European Jewish cosmopolitan center?
Have you ever visited Jenin? How about Ramallah? Or better yet, Hebron — we’ve seen lots of pictures and videos from Hebron. That your idea of Israeli tolerance, diversity and equality?
yonira, are those happy arabs strumming banjoes and eating watermelon, too?
Maybe you don’t know that the Arabs in Jaffa are quite unhappy about the campaign of Judaization going on in the city. link to haaretz.com
Not everything you see in the movies is true.
Chaos, I was stopped and interrogated @ Ben-Gurion, with a group of 60 other Jews with me.
In regards to Jaffa, you’ve never been there, just go there and experience it. As for the checkpoints, I went through 1 to get to Bethlehem, with a Palestinian taxi driver and two gentiles. It took us a total of 3 minutes, going back into Israel was even quicker.
No I don’t have dual citizenship I am an American, not Israeli. And what does Israeli exceptionalism have to do with a president with a vendetta who was going to war no matter what? I’ve read several accounts where Israeli generals thought a war with Iraq was a bad idea. Blaming the entire thing on Israel is easy to do and will probably get you some props in your circles, but the truth will set you free. or something….
We’ve already covered this, and found out you are trying to mislead us. The sixty group of Jews were not stopped — just you. This cutesy game of deception ain’t gonna work here. I haven’t talked to an Arab having to pass through Ben Gurion who wasn’t stopped. In fact, there I’ve talked to Americans of Palestinian descent who aren’t even allowed into Israel, and therefore aren’t allowed to reach their family in occupied territory.
Keep digging that hole, Yonira. Every time you post you only make it that much easier to bring forward evidence of what is going on in Israel.
I’m just a little surprised, is all, yonira. You couldn’t give two shits about American soldiers, apparently, that you write of their deaths as “inevitable” and you are willing to exonerate collaborators who planned their deaths. Which head of state said that 9/11 was “good” for his country? It doesn’t seem like the deaths of any Americans actually matter to you unless they can be spent as political capital to aggrandize Israel.
I think that this is known as “white privilege”. As a hint, you don’t have to be white to have it – though it helps. Even Nazi Germany had it’s model concentration camp that it trotted out to those who where looking for any excuse to remain ignorant.
We send our money there, we have a right to say what we want, m’okay? Israel stops taking our money, and we will hardly have a thing to say about their quest for the Holy carne Masadas. (Use it till it’s worn out, it’s not like I have a lot, y’know?)
By the way, Mooser, did you catch some of the other conversations about Masada on the other thread? Turns out the Carne Masada isn’t even kosher.
Or you can always go on this tour –
1. Tour the wall;
2. See how “security” works;
3. Follow the SWAT technical commanders;
4. Help to identify the “terrorists;”
ULTIMATE COUNTER-TERRORISM MISSION ISRAEL
You could always enjoy this murderous, racist, colonial bullshit tour chaos
Yonira your so full of —- its ridiculous.
I’ve been to Israel, lived there for a few months actually. I’ll admit that Tel-Aviv is a nice city and the attitude of the people there is far different from that of Israelis in places like Jerusalam or even Haifa. BUT that difference is more due to apathy and a hedonistic attitude rather than a feeling of good will towards the people they are subjugating. It reminded me of my visit to Khartoum, where the Sudanese people living in the capital acted like they had no idea about what was going on in Darfur.
In any case “Arab-Israeli’s” are treated like animals in Israel. The lucky ones are allowed to do manual labor type jobs like pick up your trash, clean your homes, or sit on the corner begging for any type of work.
Israel is easily the most racist country I’ve ever visited in my life, and I’ve seen quite a few countries.
My suggestion for a new Palestinian National Anthem:
Oh, give me land,
Lots of land under starry skies above,
Don’t fucking fence me in,
Let me ride thru
The wide open country that I love,
Don’t fucking fence me in.
Let me be by myself
In the evening breeze,
Listen to the murmur
Of the OLIVE trees,
Send me off forever,
But I ask you please,
Don’t fucking fence me in.
Tralala lalala dududu tralala
DON’T FUCKING FENCE ME IN.
Ever heard of the “Swan Song” by Ran Adlisset?
- Is a bomb about to fall? I head the alternate position represents real suicide.
- What then? Are we to maintain in this state forever?
- Are you out of your mind?
- Shall we withdraw?
- Are you out of your mind?
- A new war then?
- Is the situation that desperate then?
- Do you know what you want?
- No,….. do you?
- No.
- Alsa ….. let us shift to the alternate position.
BOOM!!!
Underneath all of the racism is the simple fact that the Israelis, at the university, want to make believe that the Palestinians do not exist. They figure they can use the old line of “security” to make them disappear. They could even put up some guard towers to make the charade “look good.” However, the fact of the matter is that the university, like others in Israel help to put deceptive words in the mouths of the occupying forces, try to reinforce the fairy tales of colonialism regarding the state, and are nothing but the fat around the midsection of the murderous status quo. They are not getting better or improving, but getting worse, they are just another strand in the lynching rope that Israel is trying to put around the neck of the Palestinians. Like all settler states, or oppressive nations the intelligentsia is merely created to sing the praises of the oppressive state, and demonize the “enemy” –
MARCH IN STEP
Very well said, V. Did you study there too?
Speaking of fairy tales, I’m surprised Phil hasn’t (has he?) passed on Shlomo Sand’s new website.
There’s a review of the book by Gilad Atzmon (scary anti-Semitic saxophone alert!) that opens with the following quote from Karl W. Deutsch, which Sand apparently uses at the introduction, as well. So good I had to share it:
“A nation is a group of people united by a common mistake regarding its origin and a collective hostility towards its neighbours.”
Shmuel, sorry for the delay replying but i have been very busy. I have done some post doctoral studies but not a stint at an Israeli university like you. Most of my studies have been spread out through the states and in Europe.
V,
Just my way of complimenting you on your keen observations regarding the inner workings of Israeli academia.
I spent about 6-7 years studying and working at Hebrew University on Mount Scopus. There are a good number of Palestinian students, mostly Israeli citizens from the Galilee. Palestinian political activity is closely monitored and restricted on campus. It is a Zionist institution that pursues Zionist policies and ideology. Even without this new wall, the campus is a fortress, disconnected from its surroundings. As Yonira pointed out, the fear of attack is real, but the University was built as a secure fortress detached from its Palestinian physical environment, and run as such, long before the suicide bombings began. The contrast between the campus and nearby Jewish neighbourhood (where I grew up), and the surrounding Arab villages, including Issawiye is stark, and it is not just the product of socio-economic differences, but intentional national and municipal policies (zoning laws and the provision of municipal services to name just 2).
Shmuel, are you still in Israel?
No, Yonira. I am not.
He lives in Italy, if memory serves me well. Although it strictly doesn’t matter. Gone again.
Shmuel – my mad ramble above about traitors and such does not apply to you, just in case you wonder. Yonira’s comment caught me before my first morning coffee. Some posters should never be glimpsed at certain times of the day..
Your stay at the university will qualify you as “witness for the persecution”, when the time comes. Sounds like you know first hand the seduction that apartheid can be for the class that benefits. BTW, at the time you studied there, did you already have the opinions you have now or were you still in a state of blissful slumber ?(maybe I shouldn’t ask – no need to answer. I realize there are humans who never slumber…alas, I have to admit I did. For quite a while too. Maybe that’s why the occasional vehemence – it’s like before that first coffee, spiritually speaking).
Don’t worry about it, Danaa. I’ve been called that and worse :-)
To use your wonderful metaphor, while at HU, I was kind of groggy, just before my first cuppa.