I want to talk about the regressive way in which we discuss Gaza; it is an entity unto itself, divorced from Palestine. Our discourse does not arise solely from geographic reality – Gaza is cut off from the rest of Palestine – but also from deliberate American and Israeli policy. They have created a Gaza Occupation, which is different from the West Bank Occupation. Godlike, they seek to differentiate us from ourselves – by creating the Fayyadist ‘economic miracle’ in the West Bank, by refusing to permit families to unite, by refusing to permit students to move between the territories, by orchestrating coups. Maybe Zionists in the White House and Israel intend to shove off the Palestinians in the West Bank to Jordan, and those in Gaza to Egypt, or hell. I don’t know.
Many people do not realize that Gaza had been under partial siege for years before Dayton’s Coup. The Fatah coup launched by the venal Mahmoud Abbas et al tightened the chokehold, but it had existed for some time. The people in Gaza – then, as now – depended on foreign aid and sheer ingenuity. My sister Yasmine decided to launch a non-profit in 2007 aimed at alleviating some of the dependency. Her focus was on teaching methods of sustainable farming; desperate Palestinians would grow their own cucumbers, tomatoes, and so on. I thought it was a great idea, but questioned whether her name for the venture was appropriate; she called it “Save Gaza.”
“Why ‘Save Gaza,’” I wanted to know. “Why not ‘Save Palestine?’” Gazans have always been poorer than their compatriots in the West Bank. And we’re from Gaza. But was that really enough to justify the rhetorical partitioning of the national consciousness? Again, this was before the coup. The venture is now defunct; the Abbasniks sought instead to sow the ‘seeds of discontent,’ as it were.
Much has happened since then, and I believe that most readers of this blog know a lot about it. My only purpose here is to remind the reader that the Palestinian people exist in commonality, despite material differences. Materiality should inform the way we approach the struggle, not only in Gaza and the West Bank, but also between towns and camps in both territories. Practical forms of struggle in one place may not be practical in others. But through it all, we must remind ourselves that Gaza is a part of Palestine, however isolated it may be. Mr. Abbas and Mr. Obama may struggle against that fact as much as they like. They overestimate their divinity.
Ahmed Moor is a 25-year-old Palestinian-American from the Rafah refugee camp. A graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, he now lives in Beirut.
YouTube: Gaza’s Open Wound
It’s just another symptom of Israeli policy dictating the terms of debate. Israel wants the rest of the world to stop thinking of Palestine and start thinking in terms of “Gaza and the West Bank.”
It serves the exact same function as the wall — to isolate Palestinians from other Palestinians, as well as from the rest of the world. It’s the same strategy that the Nazis used when they set up their disbursed network of concentration camps — isolate Jews (and other Holocaust victims) from one another, and you contain the resistance to your crimes.
Nothing is more despicable than a quisling. Abbas and Dahlan have made their personal vendetta against Hamas into a war against the people of Gaza. More than anyone, Abbas is responsible for the division.
The US is desperate to keep their puppet in office, so that they pressured Israel not to release Marwan Barghouti, a man that might actually be able to unite Palestinans in the face of the US/Israeli campaign to divide and conquer.
Mister Moor, rest assured many regulars on this blog at least do not separate Gaza from
the West Bank. We realize the Palestinian people are a nation, a people, and every bit as much rightfully to view themselves as such as the Jewish nation or people view themselves. An analysis of historical anti-semitism often yields to objective researchers
that the Jewish people were invented as much by non-Jewish reaction as Jewish reaction.
Jews define themselves as separate from all non-Jews in the world, for reasons both proactive and reactive. It’s their starting point–in this way it differs from Humanism, which starts out as universal, The Family Of Man as it were. Thus, the Jews view themselves as a people apart yet part of humankind. We know that the Palestinians do not view themselves as a people apart in such a seminal way. We know the Palestinians
have a more universal view of themselves; they don’t think they are chosen especially
by God to be “the light to the world.” But their plight brings light to the world. It’s always interesting when bringing darkness is proclaimed as bringing light. But the world has been there before. Surely, in the long run, Hitler’s last political testament
will not rule–or will it? Spiritual bedfellows are strange, and most people are preoccupied with the daily stress of survival.
If Israel is in occupation of Palestine illegitimately, under a false ideology, and Abbas is the miserable usurper, the Richard III, that he appears to be, then it seems to follow that Hamas (since it arises from Palestinian self-determination) plays the Shakesperean role of prince in the Tower, lacking full authority even over the prison but really the King of all England. Richard III’s method was to have his rival drowned in a barrel of wine but that method is unlikely, in all the circumstances of today, to work so well again.
Both Abbas and Obama regard Gaza as part of Palestine, as does most Israelis.
Hence the brainstorming to discuss a confident means to connect them by highway or tunnel or elevated highway.
Tangible questions that are possible of resolution between those that well-meaning intent, if they exist and lead.
Sure t hey do. They both want the usurper Abbas to take over Gaza by force from the democratically-elected government, just as he did in the WB.
And add Egypt to the conspiracy.
It bears repeating: The Gaza Bombshell. Israel and the United States are fundamentally undemocratic forces in the Middle East.
Democracy is the system of governance – for the people, by the people, and of the people….That is why the leadership established through genuine electoral participation of the people is presumed; and the decision of the leaders are totally representative of the people. In the case of Gaza, the war continues, and the people suffers alone, because they alone decided to engage in a war against their neighboring state – Israel…
This is the fourth answer to the question of that young Gazan student…
No it was Israel that chose war, on November 4th. Before then the cease fire with Hamas was intact.
You’re seriously going to blame the slaughter of the Gazan children… on the Gazan children themselves?
Furthermore, how do you justify Israel’s flagrant violation of international law with its overt oppression and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? Did the residents of the West Bank chose that oppression, then?
And if the Israelis can be held responsible for none of their actions, what then? What happens if they decide to drop bombs on Lebanon again? Or Syria? Or even Iran? Will you argue that all of those people chose war?
Yes, Israel apparently shares the cause of sufferings of the children also … that is why while we are heatedly debating who and what really causes this war, and how to end this war, the children continue to suffer…
Launching rockets at civilians is, where I come from (Google Map it: it’s called Civilization) an act of war.
What cease fire? Can you show me a single month that went by without a rocket fired on innocent people in Israel prior to Cast Lead? (Do NOT bother going to Google for that – I can assure you no such month exists.)
So, let’s see where we stand (using common rules of Civilization)
Hamas fires rockets at Israeli children over and over and over
Israel finally responds by beating the hell out of Hamas
Hamas sympathizers scream “Shame on Israel”
Got it. I live in Civilization – you live in Fantasyville.
Your credibility is blown. There is no sympathy for the Hamistanis.
Israel exists and will respond to rocket attacks with military force.
You lost. The good guys won. Find another strategy or try joining us in Civilization. It ain’t perfect but we don’t have to work so hard to make up rationaliztions for our anti-semitism.
“Launching rockets at civilians is, where I come from (Google Map it: it’s called Civilization) an act of war.
So is a blockade, which Israel has imposed on Gaza for 2 years.
Also, Israel fired 7,700 shells into Gaza after it withdrew from Gaza. Is that not also an act of war? What about stealing land, ethnic cleansing or massacaring civilians?
“What cease fire? Can you show me a single month that went by without a rocket fired on innocent people in Israel prior to Cast Lead? (Do NOT bother going to Google for that – I can assure you no such month exists.)”
I can assure you it does, which is why Israel admits that”No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire”
link to youtube.com
Oh and BTW, even Isrel’s spokesman admits there was a ceasfire.
“So, let’s see where we stand (using common rules of Civilization)
Hamas fires rockets at Israeli children over and over and over
Israel finally responds by beating the hell out of Hamas
Hamas sympathizers scream “Shame on Israel”
Where you stand happens to be inside a hermetically sealed bubble(that you think is civilization) that has shielded you from the fact that Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza for 2 years and that the last time Israel was blovkaded, it declared it an act of war.
Where you stand, you never learned that in June, Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire and that Israel agreed to lift the blcokade on Gaza and return acess to the 2005 agreement.
Where you stand, you never learned that in November, Israel chose the day of the US Presindetial elections to conduct a raid on Gaza that killed 6 Palestinians.
You shouldn’t be lecturingo anyone about credibility when you are so painfullyignorant of the facts. Israel didn’t respond to attacks. it started a war because as Tzipi Livni tol the world, “a long ceasefire is not in Israel’s strategic intererests”.
If you need any further help overcomming your ignornance, dont be shy. We’re here to help. ;-)
“The usurper Abbas”.
Abbas is the leader that will realize a viable and sovereign Palestine, but not a revolutionary one.
Zionism and democracy are, thus, demonstrated to be mutually incompatible, because Zionists will side with the the faction that attempted to seize power through force and tore the democratic Parliament of Palestine apart — not so very long before Israel bombed the actual building housing the Palestinian Parliament.
They were offered a highway corridor connecting Gaza to the West Bank. It was rejected. There is no further need to brain storm.
link to haaretz.com
Highways exclusively for Jews, and highways relegated for non-Jews, huh? You neoconservatives haven’t let go of the “separate but equal” meme yet, have you?
what are you talking about? do you just argue for the sake of argument? You don’t think there should be a safe passage? What are you trying to say there? How would you propose Gaza and the WB be connected? fucking teleportation?
You progressives are your own worst enemies sometimes.
That map showed a sweet deal, the parts in the yellow are much more fertile than the Negev. Jerusalem was the only thing I wouldn’t agree with, E. Jerusalem needs to be part of a Palestinian state.
Forbidden Roads: The Discriminatory West Bank Road Regime
Really, yonira… are you actually as ignorant as you make yourself out to be?
I’m impressed that you can look at a map that represents the theft of 80% of the Palestinian homeland, complete with land swaps for choice land in the West Bank for a swath of land called the Judean Desert — fancy that, huh — and you consider that a “sweet deal” for the Palestinians. Because what? If they don’t accept, the alternative for them is genocide under Israeli rule so that the judenreich can expand to encompass all of it?
Progressives are our own worst enemies, huh? Did progressives lie the United States into a war that has cost us more then twice the blood in American soldiers than we lost on 9/11? Did progressives make torture legal in US military installations? Did progressives block health care reform and instead mandate that we all have to pay the same private insurance companies that have been raping us all this time, or else we get fined? Did progressives hemorrhage billions of dollars into corrupt defense contracts and bank bailouts?
Yonira? Are you really that stupid?
Oh, and while we’re at it, here’s a “golden oldie” that shows just the extent of yonira’s level of modernity.
Ignorant and racist. Goes hand in hand, really. Special thanks to zamaaz for refreshing my memory on that little gem of yonira’s ongoing hate speech against non-whites.
If you give Jerusalem to the Palestinians, American must be ready to return all the lands to the Indians, the The Australians to the aborigines, and the all the South Africa to the africans, and the British Falklands to the Argentinians, and Alaska to the natives, andsome part of European lands annexed and remapped by virture of two World Wars (particularly the Austrian, germans, and Ukrainian lands; the Kurdistan from Iraq,eastern Turkey, and northwestern part of Iran back to the kurds as ancient Assyrian tribes, the Russians territories grabbed by the Russian Czars back to the Central Asian tribes, and Tibet and Mongolia by China to the mongolian tribes, abolish the United Kingdom, the United States, Russia, South Africa, Turkey, France, etc. rebuild Austria to its original borders before WW1 …Wow, I love too this idea…
And if you do that only to the Palestinians and not to other tribes or races of the world, this could mean the First global revolutions.
How is that ignorant? If someone gets there ass kicked and their first reaction is to get up and start more shit, I think that is the definition of ass backwards.
‘How is that ignorant? If someone gets there ass kicked and their first reaction is to get up and start more shit, I think that is the definition of ass backwards.
So the jews in the Warsaw Gheto were ass backwards too I take it? I never took you for an anti Semite Yonira.
Oh, and please dpon’t bore us with your lies about how Hamas started it. We’ve debunked you so many times, it’s becomming repetitive.
“They were offered a highway corridor connecting Gaza to the West Bank. It was rejected.”
Just as well. Had they accepted it, it would be blockaded and likely bobmbed to dust by now by Israel.
Julian is a slow learner. No one ever rejected the Olmert plan, Olmert was indicted, thrown out of office, and the plan died a natural death – not that the Knesset would have accepted it.
If anyone rejected that plan it was the Israelis, when they rejected Olmert.
* oh, btw, anyone noticed one of these? The asterisk? Where it says the corridor will be ‘under Israeli sovereignty?’ Why would a Palestinian corridor be under Israeli sovereignty?
“Why would a Palestinian corridor be under Israeli sovereignty? ”
When it’s not a a Palestinian corridor.
Facts are important Shingo
link to haaretz.com
As usual you miss the fine print in Olmert’s offer such as:
1) The security proposal includes a demand that the Palestinian state be demilitarized and without an army. The Palestinians, in contrast, are demanding that their security forces be capable of defending against “outside threats,” an Israeli official said.
2) On the refugee issue, Olmert’s proposal rejects a Palestinian “right of return”
3) The land to be annexed to Israel would include the large settlement blocs, and the border would be similar to the present route of the separation fence. Israel would keep Ma’aleh Adumim, Gush Etzion, the settlements surrounding Jerusalem and some land in the northern West Bank adjacent to Israel.
Meaning that a large number of settlers will remain in the West Bank, draining the West Bank Aquifers and driving on their settler only roads and still legally entitled to harass the Palestinians without any reprimand due to point #1.
4) Israel views the passage between Gaza and the West Bank as compensating for this difference: Though it would officially remain in Israeli hands, it would connect the two halves of the Palestinian state…
Looks like the Israelis would control the corridor… just like they would still be in control of the West Bank and Gaza.
I’m sorry Yonira, but Olmerts proposal was merely a legalization of the current occupation. Israel would still control all the borders, the water, Palestinian security, and pretty much everything other important issue. Furthermore, East Jerusalem would still be under Israeli control (the area that the Palestinians want as their future capital) and Israel is still absolving itself from solving the refugee crisis that it created.
The only reason Olmert even suggested this solution is because he knows that if a 2 state solution of some sort isint implemented soon, the state of Israel will be forced to accept the ONE state solution.
Did you miss this part, yonira: But another Israeli official said Olmert was merely trying to establish his legacy. “There is going to be no agreement, period,” he said on condition of anonymity.
“Facts are important Shingo”
So do details.
Olmert was writing cheques he could not honor. Olmert was a sittign duck, with no power in the Knesset and was facing charges of corruption.
Would you like a million dollars Yonira? I could write you a cheque.
Not really.
If I say I offer my bicycle to you, what do you think that means?
a) You take possession of the bicycle in question; now it is your bicylce.
b) You can use the bicycle at times I don’t need it, and whenever I feel like it, I will take it back, temporarily or permanently, without any recourse for you.
If you don’t understand that little analogy: Israel didn’t offer the Palestinians any sovereignty over the supposed “safe passage”. (What the hell does that mean anyway? That Israel would be so in-foxtrotting-credibly nice and not take potshots at Palestinians using the road? What a generous offer!) It offered less than communist East Germany offered its West German rivals.
The enactment of the original UN borders that were ratified in Resolution 180, of course being out of the question from the Zionist perspective because Israeli safety and (economic) security is privileged above that of Palestinians.
Hence the unabated Zionist support for the blockade and starvation of the Gazans and the the continued theft of land by settlement activity of the residents of the West Bank.
Resolution 180?
link to en.wikipedia.org
My mistake, I meant UN 181.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I’m impressed. You don’t usually display even the slightest bit of competence to find credible information.
Distortion:
Correction:
link to mondoweiss.net
Kathleen posted an link here of a speech by Noam Chomsky. Right off the bat he addresses the very thing talked about here. I figured I should link the post and give credit where credit is due.
As far as I can see through the murk surrounding these things, the issue of whether we should say ‘Liberate Gaza!’ (because that’s how we can get support for now) or ‘Liberate Palestine!’ (because that is the real issue) is one that has divided supporters of the Gaza Freedom March and led to Norman Finkelstein’s resignation. A tactical question but also quite a deep question about legitimacy.
I think that most Israelis would be happy in the end to let Gaza go – the Bible can certainly be interpreted to say that Gaza was not part of the promised land. But for the moment there’s no way forward there because Gaza is only part, not the whole, of Palestine and cannot be liberated without liberating Judaea and Samaria.
Israeli adherence to Biblical standards of mythology are just about as relevant as Nazi Germany’s adherence to Aryan mythology. You’re looking at the symptoms, not the source of the disease — that Israelis need to eradicate Palestinians to create an artificial Jewish majority.
Israelis and Zionists can quite often be heard to tout the supremacist refrain, “There are no such thing as Palestinians.” Even Golda Meir, one of Israel’s most prominent prime ministers, propagated this racist ideology.
The Israelis do not consider the Palestinians to be human. That is why Israel cannot let Gaza go — cannot allow the Palestinians to have any ounce of genuine sovereignty whatsoever. The existence of the Palestinian people is anathema to Zionism.
And so, they must die.
Well, I admit that I have little hope that Israel will be persuaded to conform to any interpretation of the Bible other than the Ben-Gurionist one favoured hitherto. Despite which I still think it’s worthwhile drawing attention to what I think of as the true information we can derive from the Bible.
I have certainly heard the reply ‘Who are they?’ with my own ears from an Israeli when the Palestinians were mentioned. I agree that Zionism is essentially the belief that only Jews have a right to share in sovereignty in what Jimmy Carter calls ‘the Holy Land’. So though there may be human beings – genuine ones – who live and breathe and call themselves Palestinians they have no right to form either all or part of a political entity in the land they call Palestine. So their options are to remain in the Holy Land but in subordinate condition or to wander off. This radical nationalism was never going to be a good start for negotiations, was it?
I sincerely respect you view…If you believe the the Bible if a myth we respect it…However in search of peace between warring parties, it is important to respect the views of both…If you believe there is no other option but to destroy Israel to end the sufferings of the Gazan, I do respect it. But for the moment, while this war is going on indefinitely, while the Palestinians are at the receiving end, we must take this as the fourth answer to the question of the young Palestinian student, “‘Why the Palestinians? Why are we the only ones suffering?’… Because the pro-Hamas militants stance (like yours) do not want peace, they absolutely want war…and war you want, war the children receive…
Israel was the party who chose war. Israel was the party who violated the cease fire on November 4th. Israel is also the party that slaughtered children in Gaza at a rate of over a hundred a week over the course of Operation Cast Lead.
Israel is also the party that chose to bomb hospitals and schools. Israel also chose to use white phosphorous as an incendiary weapon instead of merely as illumination.
Israel chose to murder over 1,300 people and leave tens of thousands crippled, homeless, childless, orphaned, or some combination thereof.
Is Hamas responsible for human suffering anywhere near that scale, by their own actions, Zamaaz?
As I said before, no party is really freed from their actions to this destruction, but while the world is debating who is accountable, and how to settle their bloody dispute, the children of Gaza continuously suffer alone…
Are our angry rhetorics really meaningful?
Yours certainly aren’t they’re blatantly hypocritical. What kind of Christian lets a nation like Israel hold Gazan children hostage to military force and insists that the Palestinians must surrender to that sort of callous evil?
You’re no true, sincere Christian, zamaaz.
In the original kingdom of Israel, as in the Book of Samuel and the Book of Kings, the borders covers the whole Palestine, and even beyond that (such as Jordan). But the Bible also showed that God honors the decision of men in governance despite of their foolishness (that is how truly good God is). In the Gospel, Christ teaches broad respect towards rulers, kings, and governments (like Caesar, and taxation)…That is why (particularly among Christians) if Israel government decided to accept such very small remnants of the original borders, so be it…they support it. Let every one who have similar and support such (to Christian) view accept it… But for others who reject such spirituality or Biblical views as moral factor for settlement of conflict, that is their right to reject… and even so, they have their right to continue the war to achieve what they want …thus war you seek,war you will find…
What makes that rationale different from the Nazis who sought to reclaim the borders of the Holy Roman Empire, Zamaaz?
If you look to Jesus Christ for guidance in how to partition the land, you might as well give it all to the Palestinians right now since Jesus declared in the sermon on the Mount that “Blessed be the meek, for they will inherit the land.” And it is quite a stretch for you to claim that “Christ teaches broad respect towards rulers, kings, and governments.” A cursory reading of the New Testament reveals that Christ was not impressed by an individual’s social standing or earthly powers, but only by whether or not that individual was following God’s will. Christ taught that no man can serve two masters, he will either serve one and betray the other or vice-versa. (No dual loyalty to God and government.) Yes, Ceasar can have his coins; after all, he had his face imprinted on them, but that’s about all he can have.
Yes, a faithful cannot serve two master; between mammon (‘self worldliness’ ) or God. It either to serve God, or the ‘world’. With God, your faithfulness to God’s will prevails, and that as a faithful believer your responsibility to your yourself, family, fellowmen, as well as governments remains…
Yes, very true indeed; ‘ the meek will inherit the land…’ because the proud will be humbled…and as they struggle hard they will will lose, and those humble ready to lose will gain it; and worst further, the proud, will self-destruct…and those humble will survive at the end. Are these not characteristics of divine justice?
In this war we would see at the finality who is proud, and who is humble…Hamas or the Israelis, ‘for the meek shall inherit the land.’
And this is not only a matter of returning the coin, it implies the righteous as well as legal ‘responsibility’ of returning the coin…That is in respect to the law of God and among men…
In summary, a Christian is truely a law abiding citizen…whether it the system is democratic, communists, socialist, dictatorship, facist, or monarchy…
Even in the Old Testament, it has been depicted through centuries that death comes to the rebellious…In the New Testament, destruction will finally come to Satan the ‘author’ of rebellion…
This war in Gaza is indeed a microcosm of conflict between those to conform , and those who struggle against the world legal conventions…
As we experienced court disputes, no two ‘liars’ succeed equally before a judge; one will always receive the punishment…
If two people commit a crime, zamaaz, and only one is punished (especially when the one who gets away free has gallons of blood on their hands) that isn’t justice.
What kind of Christian are you, anyway? Not a very sincere one, for starters.
In the original kingdom of Israel, as in the Book of Samuel and the Book of Kings, the borders covers the whole Palestine, and even beyond that (such as Jordan).
What exactly are you talking about when you write about “the original kingdom of Israel” the kingdom of Israel or the kingdom of Judah? And what exact historical times do you have in mind for the ultimate borders?
But the Bible also showed that God honors the decision of men in governance despite of their foolishness (that is how truly good God is).
This is a very convenient idea. What about the idea of man having to obey his laws? No punishment for leaders – to use the imagery of the animal farm – are they more equal to G-d than others, and thus do not need to obey?
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I think some of you need to take the information that Noam Chomsky gives in regard to the cutting off of Gaza –
“It is only in US and Israeli policy that Gaza is separated from the West Bank. Their a unity, one unit that is what is left of Palestine, 22% of the original mandate. It is very important for the US and Israel to separate the two, and isolate them, for one thing that means if there ever is a kind of a political settlement the West Bank will be deprived of any access to the outside world. It will be imprisoned, it will not have the seaport. It will essentially be contained by two enemies. So there is a strategic reason for the longstanding and intense effort to distinguish Gaza and the West Bank, to keep them apart, to ban transport.
Also, ideologically, to make them seem as if they are two different places, but they aren’t outside of US and Israeli ideology. We should be careful to resist that. ”
First two minutes in the lecture –
GAZA: ONE YEAR LATER
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I think that the Bible is (in an extremely unoriginal phrase) divine treasure in earthen vessels. What I think we can see with complete clarity from the Bible is that Palestine has ‘always’ been multinational and that there was never a time of ethnic and/or religious uniformity. If divine providence was indeed at work this is what it acheived.
It’s not always noticed that according to the Bible (Gen.20-21) the Philistines/Palestinians were there in Palestine before Abraham, though this does not seem to fit very well with the archaeological record. In any event they were there for a long time and there is no record of their ever leaving. The later Herodian kingdom was not solely Jewish and there is no record of objection by Jesus or by the very early Christians to the degree of multi-ethnicity that surrounded them.
Palestinian children who are to any degree aware of these things probably think that they are being robbed of their birthright. I don’t think we can assume that innocent children always simply want peace: they probably think, in a simple way, that divine justice requires ‘that we should not be the only ones to suffer’ and that their oppressors should be bitterly punished. They probably haven’t heard much about political restraint and making compromises over sacred rights.
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Since we’re onto religion, and justifications for Jewish occupation, let us not forget that many Palestinians must, by definition, be direct descendants of Jesus Christ’s family, and of the Good Samaritan, and the Disciples, and of every other figure in the Holy Bible, unless every single one of them was celibate, and without issue.
My Jordanian business partner, when I asked him how long his family had been Christian replied, succinctly “Ever since Jesus’ brother James came on a mission across the Jordan River”. His own family came from the Hauran, in what was then part of southern Syria. His answer shamed me, coming as I do from a place that was not even contacted by Christians for another 600 years
link to en.wikipedia.org
Of course, that proposition (descendants of Jesus’ family) could be countered by another proposition; that someone (the Romans?) so totally ethnically cleansed Palestine, thet no-one survived, and no-one came back.
I think Shlomo Sand makes a very good case for there having been no significant ethnic cleansing following the Jewish Wars. One gets the same impression from the Oxford History of the Biblical World. The recent exhibition about Hadrian in the British Museum did have an ‘expulsionist’ atmosphere. I wished I could write to them to ask what authority, first or even twenty-first century, they were following.
Paul remarks that all the Lord’s brothers and all the leaders of the Christian movement, except himself and Barnabas, were married. It’s true that there must be many Palestinian Christians who have ancestors of the same faith in every generation back to the first century. I sometimes wonder why Western Christians have so little sympathy with them.
I think, RP, that our dear country must have become as Christian as the rest of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, though there was an interval when we had pagan kings of Germanic origin. Patrick and Pelagius were distinguished British Christians.
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