The specter of Gaza, Goldstone, and the occupation follows Israeli officials wherever they go.
The Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, attempted to give a lecture February 8 to students at the University of California at Irvine, but was continually interrupted. The students shouted, “killer” and “how many Palestinians did you kill?” at Oren, who was born in New York but gave up his American citizenship to become the ambassador. He has served multiple tours in the Israeli Army, including in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
11 students were arrested for interrupting Oren’s speech.
The speech was reportedly disrupted so many times that Oren had to take a break from speaking before returning to the podium, only to be interrupted again.
The Muslim Student Union on campus issued the following statement before Oren’s lecture:
The members of the Muslim Student Union at the University of California, Irvine, condemn and strongly oppose the presence of Michael Oren on our campus today. We resent that the Law School and the Political Science Department have agreed to cosponsor a public figure who represents a state that continues to commit human rights violations, thereby breaking international law and law of Israeli accord. We strongly condemn the university for cosponsoring, and therefore, inadvertently supporting the ambassador of a state that is condemned by more UN Human Rights Council resolutions than all other countries in the world combined.
A year after the war on Gaza, in which 1,400 people were massacred, 700 of whom were women and children, Israel attempts to hide the war crimes it has committed behind the deceitful facades of so-called “academics” and “diplomats”. These public relations campaigns aim to secure more than three billion dollars of American taxpayer money that supports Israel’s military forces on an annual basis. The United States is going through the worst economic recession since the great depression, our tuition as UC students is increasing by more than 30% this year, our classes and services are being cut, and yet we continue to supply Israel with billions of dollars worth of brutal and illegal weapons used to oppress and inflict further suffering upon the Palestinian people.
To further understand why we oppose Michael Oren’s visit to UCI, one must consider his professional and military background. Oren personally participated in the Israeli Defense Force in wars that took place in Lebanon and Palestine. Oren took part in a culture that has no qualms with terrorizing the innocent, killing civilians, demolishing their homes, and illegally occupying their land. Oren is an outspoken supporter of the recent war on Gaza and stands in the way of international law by refusing to cooperate with the United Nation’s Goldstone Report a fact-finding mission endorsed by the UN Human Rights Council. The Goldstone Report accuses the Israeli government of committing war crimes and possible crimes against humanity in the densely populated Gaza Strip.
As people of conscience, we oppose Michael Oren’s invitation to our campus. Propagating murder is not a responsible expression of free speech. Oren and his partners should only be granted a speakers platform in the International Criminal Court and should not be honored on our campus.
The protest came on the same day that students at Oxford University disrupted Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon’s speech. Similar disruptions of Israeli officials’ speeches have occurred in the past.
Below is video footage taken from the Orange County Register’s website (hat tip to Antony Loewenstein):
You can run, but you can’t hide (anymore)…
Mondoweiss bait:
Who Wants to Bomb Iran? A List
link to foreignpolicy.com
They should all be shot as traitors.
I want a name of the man with beard, yarmulka and glasses, who is promising (at 5.26) students that they will fail the exams that they haven’t, I presume, yet taken.
Is this how University of California punishes students for having a gall to exercise their freedom of speech?
Don’t worry. The students will have video evidence of his outright discrimination and racism.
Yeah, freedom of speech, that is such a joke. These students are a disgrace to UCI, just like their director of Political Science told them, (not sure if thats in the video, haven’t had the stomach to watch it yet.)
Looking forward to hate week @ UCI.
Hate Week? Lol, I can’t imagine you are that polarized considering you are atleast reading SOME of this blog.
IMO bringing in people like Abdel Malik isn’t needed because he is just too reactionary and loves to layer on conspiracy theories day and night.
But bringing in more Anna Baltzer, Norman Finkelstein, anyone from Electronic Intifada, anyone who worked in the occupied territories for human rights orgs (or even those organizations themselves!), anyone from Breaking the Silence, and many many more of the extremely valuable characters that are part of the Anti- Occupation movement (regardless of whether they are 1 or 2 States) is what is needed.
Do you, or did you even go to UCI before you have the balls to call it hate week?
and Oren is not disgrace to the United states ? how come he gave up his citizenship to be ambassador to country which spy the US? Disturbing war criminals is disgracing their university?
I understand, yonira, you probably haven’t actually seen the inside of a university lecture hall, ever, so you probably don’t understand the concept of academic integrity.
Your attempts to equate what’s shown here to Blumenthal’s videos of people in Israel using racial slurs about President Obama is laughable and amusing. Dance, neocon, dance!
Very good question, Eva. And he should be outed if any UCI student is reading this.
Yes i will write a letter to the school director.
I have a hard time applauding students who think they are scoring something by this action. Even if Oren is lying through his teeth and even if he represents a oppressor government, you win more by asking him crucial questions and show how he’s lying and question his corrupt logic. I would rather catch this guy in a lie than shut him down by not letting him show how much of a liar he is.
I found the last part amusing, the old woman flipping the bird to the protestors, very classy and also the Jewish guy who was telling the students that they failed their exam. What this part of the exam?
Arabs and Moslems need to control their emotions and use truth, patience and the weakness of their enemies against them. This is a strong enemy and very smart but the truth is stronger so be calm, and present your arguments in a clear and calm voice, people will listen.
Well yes, but how much do you know about how the questions are screened; the usual filter?
I have attended and watched a few of this type of presentations. The questions are definitely filtered but in many cases, this works against the presenter. In all the presntationsi attended, a well placed, well planned and reserached question puts the presenter in a very awkward spot tat even his supporters raise an eybrow about a bad response. The key here is he gets 20 minutes or so to present a one sided presentation, it only takes one very good question the undermine it all.
for example. I would have asked him about JStreet and their reactions to his shunning them, there are many Jews in the audience, he would have had to dance.
Then when he is awkward and off balance, ask him about the plans of settling Palestinians in Jordan. As an ambassador, he could start a heck of problem with his Jordanian friends no matter what he answers.
Brad, Zionists are not amenable to logic, you have to scare them, and where the fuck do you get off telling “Arabs and Muslims” to “control their emotions and use truth.” What a bunch of crap.
Do you really think catching Oren in a logical inconsistency is going to make any difference? Zionists have little enough respect for life, even, frankly their own, and for anybody else’s, bupkis!
The idea that they may be torn to pieces might, just might have some effect on them.
Arabs and Moslems need to control their emotions and use truth, patience and the weakness of their enemies against them.
You’re a bigot and an idiot.
How was that bigoted? Is it bigoted to think that Arabs might have emotions on seeing a propagandist for a murderous government give a speech? I don’t know if his advice is good, but he’s saying that this type of protest is less effective than sneaking in some good questions that would have tripped Oren up.
My own feeling is that one should try both, if possible. Have some students shout their opinions of him, until they have to leave. Then try to have someone on the official questioners list (if that’s how such things are managed) ask some really tough question guaranteed to embarrass him. Or preferably a series of such questions.
It’s bigoted because it stems from the assumption that Arabs and Muslims are “angry, emotional ‘savages’”.
That’s what I thought you’d say, but unless you know something about Brad, there’s no proof that’s what he meant and he isn’t the one who used the word “savage”–that was yonira. Oren is an apologist for a country that murdered about 1000 civilians last year, so it’s perfectly natural for Arabs and Muslims to be emotional and angry when listening to him. Brad could have meant that.
Brad, I don’t think that’s right. Student indignation is a sign of progress. Compare with this account of a similar event re. South Africa I found on the web. This is the way the world is going.
Whoops: the actual text was dropped:
I think it must have been in 1976. It was certainly around about that time. A well-known debating society in the university where I was then a student organised a debate on apartheid, the political system (or aberration) that was at that time still governing South Africa. Various people were there to speak for the motion: I don’t really remember what it was, but it must have been some variant on the theme that apartheid was a Bad Thing (which of course it was). A man from some South African organisation or other based in London was there to speak against, or maybe his point was that the South African political system was badly misunderstood. None of that was really worth a raising of the eyebrows, everyone was there to do and say what the script expected of them, including the loud shouts of righteous indignation (myself very much included) from the floor whenever the Man From South Africa made any point excusing or justifying his country’s politics. But the thing that really got everyone going and that caused both excitement and temper was the fact that there was a second person opposing the motion, and heaven help us, that second person was a student.
My friend, this was not a debate, this was a one way presntation. Each situation requires a special way to handle. HE MUST SPEAK. Only through his words can you find the ammunition to disprove him and reveal his lies. I think he would have been ten times more angry if the audience just sat quiet, listened and then calmly asked questions about what is going on in Israel, the west bank and Gaza. They had so much ammunition and wasted it firing in the air. He counted on the disruption and by this he received the support and sympathy even from those in the crowd who were skeptical. The students made his life easy and he got away with more lies than he could hope for. Next time, LET HIM SPEAK, listen, raise your hand and ask.
Palestinians always complain they can’t fight Israel because they don’t have the same weapons. Well, here you do, and here you can win big battles, your enemy won’t even bother showing up anymore. The power of democracy and free speech, its a powerful weapon.
Brad, how come we always have to appeal to the Israelis out of the goodness of their heart to change? God damn it, Brad, THEIR VERY IDEOLOGY FORBIDS THIS! It is predicated on an us-against-them.
So Palestinians go on dieing, until we can corner the Israelis on the finer dialectical points?
You are just trying to “work the refs” in Zionism’s favor. I don’t know where you got the idea that Israel will change anything because of it’s logical consistency, please Brad, please tell us what gave you that idea? If true, it would be a great source of hope for everyone here.
Not to defend Brad too much, as I might be misinterpreting him, but I think he means that Oren could be shown up in front of the American audience and not that maybe Israel can be argued into realizing that they are committing war crimes.
Maybe I’m missing the subtext–does Brad have some history here that I don’t know about?
you win more by asking him crucial questions
like anyone is going to make headlines doing following your advice. ambassadors are specialists at doublespeak. no, i was at the olmert protest at SF. we have to frame this as war criminals and their supporters being invited as guests and speakers. it is unacceptable, if protesters did this in palestine they would be targets or imprisoned.
argh, ‘like anyone is going to make headlines following your advice.’
Gee, where was the opposing narrative speaker; you know, providing “context?” Why is context only needed when somebody is speaking up for the Palestinians in a public forum?
Exactly, Citizen. Eggs-ackly!
And of course, if the calm, collected Arabs and Muslims scored a logical point, it would be splashed all over the newspapers and TV that very evening, and millions of Americans would totally reconsider their ideas about 9-11!
yes, if this were a muslim/arab speaker israel/aipac/camera or campus watch would be demanding equal time and raising hell.
There’s gotta be a name for someone who ‘gives-up’ their American passport just so that they can become the Israeli ambassador in America.
Can no one on capitol hill see the Alice in Wonderland politics of this maneuver?
What the fuck?! Why should a single American citizen, either side of the isle, respect a non-patriot like that?!
Despicable swindler that Michael Oren! Would probably sell his grandmother for zionism.
The same Michael Oren who truth distorted about the USS Liberty attack (cover-up) in his ‘Six Days of War’ book as he even mentioned that such should be investigated in the following video from C-SPAN’s archive during which James Bamford read the declaration by Captain Ward Boston which is linked below as well:
link to c-spanvideo.org
Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Counsel to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry’s investigation into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty
link to ifamericansknew.org
Check out Firedoglake’s support for Reps who voted to condemn the Goldstone Report (Rep Grayson and Rep Weiner) and both voted for the Iran Sanctions Act. Kucinich voted against the condemnation of the Goldstone Report and against the Iran Sanctions Act.
Really something when the so called progressives support those who chose to block an internationally recognized UN report about crimes committed in the Gaza and those pushing for a confrontation with Iran. This is who Firedoglake chooses to support.
This is progressive? This is Pathetic.
On top of it Firedoglake extended the hours by 10 to give those behind plenty of time to catch up and used “it snowed” as the excuse for changing the stated time that the contest would end
link to fdlaction.firedoglake.com
OK, now that I watched it. Quite the movement you guys have there.
Good luck freeing Palestine with people like this on your side. Is this the norm for a BDS outing? I wonder if Ali Abunimeh has a hard-on after watching this.
I love it!
So tell us, Yonira, how would you be “freeing Palestine”? Wouldn’t it be fair to assume the same exact rhetorical tactics which Zionbism espoused should be available to anyone? As I remember, the Zionists favorite rhetorical tactic was called “mortaring” and truck bombs.
But in your contention that the wisest thing to do was rush the stage and do away with him, I concur. I bet that would wipe the smirk off your face.
Just keep ridiculing the Palestinians for showing restraint, and see where you end up.
israel sometimes just assassinates its enemies, sometimes false flag sometimes not.
“People like this?”. You mean standing up and telling a Monster that he is a Monster? Beyond constantly heckling him for his crimes against the Palestinians, they did nothing more. It doesn’t look like they fought with the crowd or threw a punch, it doesn’t look like they physically assaulted anyone; if anything they CLEARLY understood that interrupting the event would result in their ejection, as can be confirmed by the fact that (at least from the video) each person stood up and began to walk towards the police as he or she challenged Oren.
so how is this productive AM? people watch this on the Orange Country Register and think, wow those people are savages. No wonder they’ve been sitting here fighting for the same cause for 60 years, because they are clueless on how to get things done.
I think biases against Muslims or Arabs play a bigger role than the actions these students took regardless of the circumstances. You make the same mistake – somehow, for heckling a war criminal, they turn into ‘savages’. Is that really the new standard for savages now?
At the very least it is productive because people will learn that a controversial (and i’m putting that mildly. I’d say its fair to say criminal) figure came to the campus and there are people who are very passionate that this was something very very wrong.
As for People catching up on PR….I’m not worried. Zionists have had a good 50 year headstart in PR in the US.
It’s really sad that all you do is smear the blog. But this crosses the line.
I hope people report yonira finally for making these disgusting, overtly racist comments.
Oh and, remember yesterday when RP linked that Holocaust Revisionist website? Remember how I said something in dissent? As did other regulars?
Yet, you’re still a racist and a hypocrite. You have an inhuman perspective on Arabs, Muslims and Palestine.
So go to hell.
Thank you for confirming that you are nothing better than a bigot and racist.
Do you think that everybody has the same pea-size brain as you do? Or do you think that everyone is a racist as you are?
the previous reply was addressed to Yonira in case there was any doubt.
How in the fuck were they acting humane in that video? That is exactly what the people of Orange Country will think after viewing this, its not what I thought, but its definitely what they’ll think.
I think they were spoiled little college kids who think they are making a difference but in reality are sending back their movement by years. You know a little bit about being a spoiled little college kid who’s daddy pays for his activism, don’t ya now Cliff.
Fuck you Aref, you don’t know shit about me, but now lucky for the Orange Country Register, most of Orange County knows about the ilk that is creating a movement of hate on one of their revered campuses.
It blows my mind how you guys think this is going to help your movement…. absolutely mind blowing….. Its all about hate, you guys could care less, as long as you can show your hate to each other. Well hate isn’t going to get you guys shit.
Compelling and rich.
My parents did pay for my education. Does that make me a bad person, yonira? I think you should elaborate on your insinuations about me.
The reason people are rightly denouncing your screed is that the imagery of ‘savages’ was put forth by you.
Which means, YOU saw that in the video. Why?
Why would people shouting down an intellectual crook, be called ‘savages’?
Do you know how that word is used?
I mean, ‘k***’ is a specific racist slur for Jews. ‘n*****’ is for Blacks. And ‘sand n*****’ is for Arabs.
But ‘savages’ is typically reserved for people of color (AFAIK). It’s a colonial term. It is espoused by people with a colonial mindset.
Supremacists say that sort of thing.
When that Israeli Arab MK was being interviewed by the veteran Israeli ‘dove’ journalist – he was repeatedly insulted as ‘impudent’.
These two words are deeply racist and hateful and part of an entire paradigm of thinking.
If people in Orange County call the protesters ‘savages’ – then that says a lot more about them, than the protesters.
damn, missed one of your “hate”s
Uncivilized would have been a better word, I understand the negative connotations behind the word savage. But I think this is how the people of Orange Country will see them, not how I see them. Their hatred and their inability to have a debate void of that nonsense is very uncivilized.
Your parents paying for your education does not make you a bad person Cliff, I respect your parents for being able to do this, I wish mine would have had the same opportunities for me. In retrospect that was a dick thing to say, I am sorry.
people watch this on the Orange Country Register
this is getting wider coverage than orange county. the fact this is happening in rightwing country is amazing in itself. they aren’t safe from hecklers anywhere. bring it on people.
wow those people are savages
you do realize yonira you are saying lots about yourself here and your like kind. we don’t care anymore what bigots think.
yonira, you’re not only a racist bigot pig but a vulgar one too. Keep revealing the truth about who you really are–like many of your Zionist fascist ilk.
You talk about hate and all I have to say go take a good look in the mirror and you will certainly see one hater looking back at you.
So we’ve gone from Savage to UNCIVILIZED? Are you sure you are picking the right words there?
Again, you are being blinded by your own mis conceptions.
Yonira, do you think that “uncivilized” is better than savages? Like Cliff already pointed out to you, uncivilized is in the same category as savages. It clearly shows your colonial supremacist mindset. Keep it coming yonira and tell us all here who you really are.
As disgusting as yonira is, I actually won’t lobby to see him banned. Like Witty, he’s one of our showcase examples of what Zionism is really about.
i agree with Chaos, its important to see how the cruel Zionists thing about the issues related to the ME.
I don’t believe anyone has suggested yonira be banned.
Here, yonira – a movement just made for you!
link to sjlendman.blogspot.com
I understand the argument of “Free Speech, let him speak”, but at the same time I wonder if it is allowable to give south Africa Pro Apartheid speakers the same courtesy.
Ultimately he said what he wanted, but was verbally harassed as a sign that it is CLEAR that people aren’t going to simply accept what is going on. Let that be a reminder to him.
Oh, and in the end, I’m dissapointed with UCI simply because the school does not bring in speakers airing opposing views (note: not referring to club invited speakers), or if they did, I never seemed to notice it on campus at all.
When the same treatment was given to Ahmadinejad or Khadaffi, the MSM were full of righteous praise for the disruption.
i went to a vigil in SF for the slaughtered gazans on the anniversary of the invasion. organizers got a permit and we filled one corner or union square. naturally not to be outdone the local pro israelites got a permit across the street. while prayers were going on they not only infiltrated and conspicuously photographed individual arabs in an intimidating way their minions across the street had loudspeakers and were screaming obscenities during the prayers! it was mind boggling. this was not a protest it was a vigil by candlelight. the native american community were playing drums at times and an awesome asian christian minister said some prayers along w/a local muslim iman. it was so beautiful. nothing could deter us and thank goodness the city of san francisco (bless them, they also denied the zionists a permit to disrupt our march across the golden gate 4 days later)) made the zionists stand across the street where their loudspeaker only served to highlight the contrast between our prayers and their unbelievable loud screaming rudeness. this is the ‘civilized’ pro israel faction yonira represents. out in full glory screaming at a vigil for their slaughtered victims.
Zionists interrupting a vigil for Gaza children back in Feb. of last year in Edmonton.
link to youtube.com
I especially like how they stack up the total number of Israeli children killed since 2000, to the number of Palestinian children killed in Cast Lead.
This isn’t even unusual. I was personally witness to a Christian Zionist who showed up at a prayer vigil while Gaza was happening and used the open prayer time to spout some pseudo-theological nonsense debasing Islam. Mind you, this was held at the local Islamic community center and there were Muslims and Christians and Jews as well in attendance.
The thing that really floors me is that the counter-demonstrators can’t even pronounce most of the Israeli names correctly.
they spit scum this bunch of Zionists they are listing Arabic names and also the names of children dead from 1948. If we do the same for the Palestinians, Arab kids that will take at least one year.
These Zionists have guts to bomb schools, nobody will never forget, they did it many times in Palestine,Lebanon, Egypt. Yonira google Bahr-el-Baqar.
I must admit I am conflicted over this sort of thing. Oren is a creep, a polished, articulate liar on behalf of war criminals, but if such jeers are appropriate to silence him, what about Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky or Ali Abunimah? Do we really want to create a climate where none of these people can give a speech uninterrupted?
I confess I enjoy seeing Oren embarrassed, and love the thought of high-profile protests against people like him, but I am uncomfortable with the disruption of a speech, a tactic that could be employed against far more worthy people to prevent them from expressing far more worthy opinions. Demanding opposing viewpoints from the university, distributing fliers at this event, asking tough questions of the speaker, are tactics that are unquestionably fair. But this? I’m not so sure.
David,
Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky and Ali Abunimah are not official representatives of the regime that massacres civilians, nor were they personally taking part in combat situations where attacking civilians was a policy.
I agree with you that disruption of speech is uncomfortable. But there are moral stances that are universally loathed, and apartheid is one of them. Take into account that Shoah was preceded by the apartheid – shoving people into ghettos is a step closer towards seeing them as lifestock, not as humans.
Eva – I feel very strongly about who is right and decent in this conflict (and war of words), and who is not, and I would expect that you and I would have similar opinions on that. But I feel less strongly that my personal feelings should govern who gets to speak and who does not. Donald mentions Ahmadinejad (then sort of retracts that). Would you feel comfortable if he were shouted down? (He was not, although he was boorishly insulted). What about the President of China? What about President Obama, whose inherited wars are now fully his own (with expansions in Pakistan and Yemen), with far more casualties under his watch than in Gaza? Protest UCI for inviting Oren, sure. Make it difficult or impossible for him to speak? Not only is it problematical, because it invites backlash, it looks really bad. I have to say I’m somewhat equivocal on this, and would not “condemn” those who did so, but perhaps disagree with them. Even an initial outburst embarrassing him in front of the crowd might be OK, but a staggered serial protest that continually interrupts his speech?
David Samel, this is the first time Israel is getting a shakedown on their policies on the world stage. In 60 years. It’s happening at Oxford, at diplomatic meetings in Europe, in places where they’ve never expected this. Israel doesn’t react to quiet requests (a la Witty’s airy-fairy curlings of his short hairs). It wont even allow many peaceful protests in its own country by Palestinians, or in the WB or Gaza. For the time being it’s getting a taste of its own medicine, and it’s realizing that people are mad. And that the anti-semitic slur aint going to shut anyone down anymore. And it’s happening in the heartland of America. 300 million pissed off Americans is a force to reckon with. God help Israel if we go to war with Iran because the DCers can’t read the mood between the coasts the way David Frum could.
It was one speech that got interrupted. Not 25 or 30. And it was no different than when this country got enraged over Vietnam. If the shmuck congressmen aren’t going to listen to their constituents because they’re fearful of losing donor money, those constituents are going to take it upon themselves.
Other than all this, I agree with you. ;-)
Another way of putting this, we’re worried about manners when they use white phosphorous without compunction and shoot citizens in a barrel and run to our Congress –using up time that should have been spent on our woes –to get a respected world jurist labelled anti-semitic and a liar and denigrated on the world stage?
Spot on. Oren was there acting in the role of a propagandist, not to enlighten or engage in an even-handed exchange with questioners. This whole handwringing exercise about the interruption of freedom of speech is nonsensical. It’s as if someone were complaining that you were talking over a Coca-Cola commercial airing on television. Did the hecklers stop Mr. Oren from making his point, a point that he has an almost unlimited opportunity to make in the MSM? They could have poured a bucket of catsup over his head for all I care.
David, you’re drawing a parallel. However things can be parallel and unequal in content.
So yes, superficially, we would not want people to disrupt Finkelstein (it’s happened though). However, Finkelstein defends the crimes of a racist, apartheid State.
blah, meant to say:
‘Finkelstein defends the crimes of a racist, apartheid State? OR is that Michael Oren?’
So if someone supports something you don’t agree with they are able to treated like Mr. Oren was? I don’t think Finkelstein would have the same treatment at the UCI Hillel, do you?
It’s not that simple.
As I said, you’re making a parallel. You’re not comparing the content of Fink’s views to Oren’s.
By the way, would you tolerate ‘Holocaust revisionists’?
After all yonira, they are merely presenting a ‘different opinion’ than yours, aren’t they?
Don’t even try to say you would. I’ve seen you flip out at people here for most asinine reasons. It feels like every other comment you make is a denunciation of the entire blog and how the Palestinians ‘don’t deserve shit’ because of us! Us?
I enjoyed seeing Oren disrupted, however I would much rather preferred those students to somehow be able to question him harshly. From what I understand, the questions he got were prepared in advance. Maybe I’m mistaken on that.
I don’t think Finkelstein would have the same treatment at the UCI Hillel
ptb would prevent norm from speaking at a hillel so that’s a moot point.
So if someone supports something you don’t agree with they are able to treated like Mr. Oren was? I don’t think Finkelstein would have the same treatment at the UCI Hillel, do you?
Thanks, Yonira. A perfect illustration of the obsequious, power-worshipping, boot-licking mindset. It’s Mr. Oren, but _ Finkelstein? I hope that you didn’t spit too much on your keyboard as you sputtered out the professor’s name.
I had the same set of mixed feelings. I end up thinking that some heckling is good, some shouts of “murderer”, but he should be allowed to tell his lies, I suppose, just as Ahmadinejad should be allowed to speak. Do this sort of thing and you can’t complain if the speakers one prefers are shouted down.
Some are saying he should be arrested. I support having Israeli officials arrested and tried for war crimes (don’t know if Oren would deserve that treatment or not), but that’s a separate issue from free speech.
“just as Ahmadinejad should be allowed to speak. Do this sort of thing and you can’t complain if the speakers one prefers are shouted down.”
Eh, that sounded like I prefer Ahmadinejad. Uh, no. I meant people like Chomsky, Finkelstein, etc…
Actually these accessories to colonial genocide do not have a right to say anything, there is no apology for the activity of Israel. This campus has been under assault by the ZOA and other various groups for years, with every bogus accusation in the book. Next time it will be tomatoes and perhaps shoes? I hope so. They deserve my spit, they should be arrested on the spot, and if the legal apparatus does no conform, it should be a citizens arrest. Keep the practice of repression of free speech up, against the defenders of humanity, and it may be a riot next time –
DO IT
People have had enough of this unmitigated horse shit, and no one is going to tell me what is acceptable on my home turf.
I agree. Advocates and apologists for genocide, ethnic cleansing and Apartheid should not have the right to spread their hate speech. Fascists should be shut out not allowed to speak.
I have to admit that I too feel a bit conflicted about disrupting a speech like that.
But, as others have noted, there wasn’t any other speaker scheduled, to provide any, however pitiful, context. There was no chance that Oren would be questioned the way Ahmadinejad was at Columbia (forget about the humiliation that he was subjected to). And it is greatly empowering to see young Arab and Muslim youth speak out unafraid.
This is yet another sign of what Glenn Greenwald blogged about today, the death of the reflexive antisemitism smear. The taboo is disappearing.
Way to go Cast Lead…
Isreal: killing the reflexive “antisemite” smear one atrocity at a time.
I love subscribing to comments on mondoweiss, every time I open my email it’s like finding a new basket full of ziostomping easter eggs.
RE: The students shouted, “killer” and “how many Palestinians did you kill?” – Weiss
MT COMMENT: But…but…but, what about that totally awesome computer-controlled drip irrigation system made in Israel?
Excellent point – that’s Oren in a nutshell
A video must see link to youtube.com
I heard Norman Finkelstein speak at this same auditoreum at UCI a few years ago. There were 3-4 hardcore zionists in the back of the room who continuously heckled him throughout the whole presentation. They must have interrupted him more than a hundred times and although campus police was present, they made no effort to remove them or to stop the disruptions. I remember he was a class act; he asked us to concentrate on his words and filter out the hate coming from the back of the room. That professor who gave the UCI students a tongue-lashing for embarassing him in front of a speaker is a hypocrite; Finkelstein was treated much worse by outsiders (the lead heckler was a 50′ish woman) and no official from UCI was present to defend him. Clearly, a double standard here.
I went to hear Oren at another university, and he got nothing but softball questions from devoted Zionists. I think it would have been nice to hear a few pointed questions, I’ve no doubt he would have done the politician’s sidestep. Respectful questions would be no more effective than heckling at broadening the mind of anyone in that audience.
I didn’t get to ask my respectful question. However, since they had a bus to the parking lot, on the way back I decided to take on a bus-load of Zionists. Recent IDF punks included. Called him a liar for fearmongering over Iran (apparently Achmadinijad(sp) threatens to “wipe Israel off the map” daily) and criticizing Goldstone. One of the IDF punks took issue with my mentioning that Israel was founded through mass murder and claimed that the leadership all apologized for mass murders, and said Goldstone was lying because he was there and he didn’t see anything like what Goldstone mentioned and besides the Mossad report on Gaza said something different, and Goldstone is an anti-Zionist working against Israel. Woefully ignorant, that one. I’d hate to talk to him after he grows up.
Well, one of the Zionists was a self-described “liberal Jew and Zionist.” He stood up and defended Goldstone. But his excuse for the massacres of 1948 and defense of Zionism was the usual misinformed garbage of history. Israel was attacked on its founding, and you can’t be blamed for the massacres that ensued when the other guys “started” the war. He couldn’t let go of that idea. Interesting point of view, though, for a liberal, when it came right down to it he didn’t believe in equal rights regardless of creed or democracy.
Did they mention the biggest Zionist lie about Ahmedinajad famoust quote “wipe Israel off the map” ?
In other news:
link to intifada-palestine.com
Yeah. The United States is pretty much the only country that stands with Israel. That’s going to put us in an unenviable position if World War III ever does break out — being on the same side as the concentration camps, ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
Because I can assure you, after what Afghanistan and Iraq have become, no one in the world is stupid enough to follow us into battle ever again.
What world do you live in Chaos? A country sends back a bottle of wine and they are automatically against Israel? Did you forget about the 100 + aircraft from Israel that flew into Greece and tested their S-300 Anti-Aircraft systems? Do you think maybe that means a little bit more than a few bottles of wine being returned?
Applauds, Chapeau bas!
Greece was usually among those who rejected the Zionism.
If memory serves Greece never bent to the USA’s economic pressure put on lots of little countries desperately in need of foreign aid in the years immediately following the end of WW2. It didn’t vote in favor of the Partition Plan.
Yes thats true. They are one of the only western countries to reject the partition plan. They have strong ties with Arab countries, especially with Egypt wich has 1% of Greek Egyptians. They follow the Orthodox Church like Coptics in Egypt and their pop is the pop of Alexandria (the northern egyptian city).
What I found offensive and objectionable were the four Israeli flags interspersed with USA flags of the same size in that room and a lectern decorated with an Israeli menorah.
The lectern should have had a UCI symbol, and it was wholly inappropriate to have several Israeli flags esp. equal to the US in size behind the speaker, and on the side of the room.
Sarkozy doesn’t get that when he speaks in US! Neither the head of Germany! Nor Russia!
For this ambassador to walk onto an American campus and take over our sovereignty with those symbols in that balls-out-I’m-entitled-because-my-country-is-equal-to-your-country-way is symbolic of Israel’s tone deafness, and I would hazard a guess that it inflamed the situation. This was Orange County, bastion of the Republican right-wing, where they got all pissed off and huffy because Mexican-Americans waved little Mexican flags during their Cinco de Mayo demonstration in 2006, and the Forward published an ugly op-ed by Steinlight (June 2006) that said Jews must not let any more Latinos immigrate because it’s not good for the Jews, they procreate too fast, and they aren’t cowed by anti-semitism, and will overtake the Jewish vote is Jews dont stop them. So the biggest bitches about the flags came from Jewish groups in Orange County.
Good point.
one thing about Zionist Sarkozy and his Zionist Kouchner (both are Zionists Jews). He is the US bitch so in other ways he is Israels bitch.
Good point.
one thing about Zionist Sarkozy and his Zionist Kouchner (both are Zionist Jews). He is the US bitch so in other ways he is Israels bitch.
“I would hazard a guess that it inflamed the situation.”
Come now, the hecklers decided to heckle and it had nothing to do with the size of the flags.
I understand why those who hate Israel are pleased with the heckling. I understand why those who appreciate free speech are displeased with the heckling.
Unlike Olmert who led Israel when it fought against Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2008-2009, Oren merely represents that country and did not lead it at the time of those wars. If he fought in Lebanon in 1982 this is not proof of a war crime. If he served in the occupied territories, this is not proof of a war crime. Heckling Olmert is more justifiable in that way than heckling Oren.
Have you forgot about Sabra and Shatila? the invasion of 1982?
In 1982, an international commission investigated into reported violations of International Law by Israel during its invasion of the Lebanon. Chairman was Seán MacBride, the other members were Richard Falk, Kader Asmal, Brian Bercusson, Géraud de la Pradelle, and Stefan Wild. The commission’s report concluded that “the government of Israel has committed acts of aggression contrary to international law”, that the government of Israel had no valid reasons under international law for its invasion of Lebanon, and that the Israeli authorities or forces were involved directly or indirectly in the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.
Michael Oren was a soldier not a commander in 1982.
if you continue to serve war criminals then you are complicit.
We had a similar discussion on this site when Olmert was heckled last month. I was trying to assert that even if one felt or thought that heckling Olmert was correct (which I didn’t) this heckling was different in that Olmert was a leader of a country and Oren a mere representative currently (or soldier historically).
I don’t see the difference? one was commander and the other was representative of commander. He knows better than anyone in this site that he is new adoptive country committed and is committing atrocities toward unarmed civilians including innocent children and women.
Those hecklers were American students, citizens. The only flag they should have to look at is their own.
The Ambassador was a guest for 30 minutes. If he had walked in humbly without making it seem like a major policy discussion before the Knesset, and delivered quietly without those flags and an Israeli symbol supplanting their school insignia, maybe things would have been different.
I understand why those who hate Israel are pleased with the heckling. I understand why those who appreciate free speech are displeased with the heckling.
How silly and superficial. Oren deserves to be heckled because of his support for current Israeli policies, not because he is ‘Israel’. If he was on campus, for example, in the wake of announcements that Israel and Hamas were scheduled to hold talks about lifting the blockade of Gaza, presumably reaction to his presence would have been different. But he wasn’t. The purpose of his presence was to run an advertisement for his employer, Likud. And granting yet another opportunity for a stooge like Oren to pontificate is not an indicator of free speech. It is the opposite.
Granting an opportunity to Oren to speak for the Likud government is precisely free speech. To call it its opposite is Orwellian.
No it is not free speech when Oren and his ilk nearly completely take up any and all space in the collective bandwidth to the exclusion of dissenting view points. It is not free speech when pro-Zionists demand that any dissenting speaker that is invited to a campus be ‘balanced’ with the presence of another voice to contradict that dissenting point of view, when it wouldn’t occur to them to agree to offer the same ‘balance’ when one of their own is speaking. And, in fact, your whole silly premise is wrong, as freedom of expression includes the right to protest positions that you disagree with, which is what those students were doing. Not that you give a damn, but when the right to free speech was incorporated in the US Constitution, it was at a time when it was understood that that right included the right to disruptive protest of injustices. Freedom of speech is not defined by the standards of a junior high school debating society. It could be argued that the students’ actions were a tactical blunder, but, no, it cannot be argued that their protest was violative of anyone’s freedom of speech.
To the extent that anyone’s freedom of speech was violated, it would be those students who were told that they would be failed on their exams on account of their protest of Oren. A perfect example of the Soviet mindset at work in US universities.
I just wonder when was the last time a PLO ambassador got invited by UCI for a talk?
What about the canned softball questions? Free speech?
Are you implying that someone has to like Israel?
Or do you want to fling around the antisemitism card some other way?
Because hating Israel isn’t an issue unless it’s antisemitic.
Cast lead. Goldstone Report. The occupation. Colonization. 60+ years. 40+ years. Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
Would you bash Iraqis burning an American flag? After the hell unleashed on their country from the invasion, insurgency + civil war, occupation, etc.?
Your etiquette lessons are ridiculous.
Bullshit, the definition of “free speech” has migrated greatly over the last couple of hundred years. Free speech used to mean “equal platform,” but this is no longer the case. In the name of free speech predominate powers have been given the global microphone, and privilege has become the measure of speech. The university is the compromised arena, because it has become so dependent on outside funds, and rather than the pursuit of truth the schools have been given over to administrators who biased by a combination of ideology and funds.
So if we want to hear Orens position we can turn to the MSM, where it is globally broadcast, 24 hours a day seven days a week. The same goes for some of your posts WJ.
Actually, it appears that UCI has a history of having pro-Palestinian speakers on campus. In fact Zionist (their label, not mine) student organizations have protested the appearance of many of these speakers, and have lobbied the school administration to prevent or limit their appearance on campus because the speakers were considered anti-Semitic by some. And I’m sure that such lobbying efforts would be extremely upsetting to WJ and his/her sensitivity to freedom of speech. (I had completely forgotten about the broohaha over the Muslim Student Union’s so-called ‘Hate Week’, last year the MSU having the temerity to invite George Galloway and Cynthia McKinney to speak.)
ope. missed the ‘hate week’ discussion above.
Lets not forget about what really birthed this response, the national unveiling previous to any of this was “Islamofascism Week,” yes that’s right, that is what it was named.
“Beginning on October 22, student groups across the nation will hold Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week on their campuses. These protest weeks will feature a series of events designed to bring a message to these academic communities that challenges most of what students are taught about the so-called War on Terror both in the classroom and on the quad.
The Week’s events will include speeches about Islamo-Fascism by prominent figures, including former Senator Rick Santorum (Penn State, Temple and UPenn), Sean Hannity (Columbia), Ann Coulter (Tulane and USC), Dennis Prager (UC Santa Barbara), Robert Spencer (Brown, Dartmouth, University of Rhode Island, and DePaul), Daniel Pipes (Northeastern and UPenn), David Horowitz (Columbia, Emory, Ohio State, Michigan and Wisconsin), Michael Ledeen (Maryland), Nonie Darwish (UCLA and Berkeley), Wafa Sultan (Stanford) and radio talk show hosts Melanie Morgan (San Francisco State), Michael Medved (University of Washington), Martha Zoeller (Georgia Tech), Alan Nathan (George Mason), Mark Larson (to be named) and many others.”
Of course, wrapped up tightly in this “tour” to 114 campuses (including the one under discussion), was the Palestinians and “poor” Israel trapped in the middle. So, if you want to address these issues, my recommendation is that you do so in context. I was not going to mention this, but the incessant howling of some on this site provoked me – let this be a lesson, keep it up and I will bury you in facts.
ISLAMOFASCISM WEEK
So do not start the process of being “offended” by this, along with this fiasco, which continues into the following years, and along with this the never ending assault of these shrill organizations which are supposed to speak for “all” of the Jewish population – ZOA, Hillel, Chabad, etc. a long litany of jackasses. Which once again (the stated week) I dutifully recorded –
RISE OF THE MODERN BROWN SHIRTS AGAINST “ISLAMOFACISM”
Good point about the Israeli flag, MRW; it was more like a joint US-Israeli propaganda exercise rather than a university bringing a guest speaker for an intellectual debate. And the moderator was such a fawning sycophant as well, calling Oren an important man whose time had been wasted by the protesters.
On another point you made, I am not concerned with manners as much as the opportunity to present an opposing viewpoint without being shouted down as well. This episode could be a model for disruption of even Goldstone himself. The fact that you and I think he’s a hero and Oren a shill for murderers is irrelevant. The same rules should apply. Embarrass Oren as much as possible, but stifle or prevent his speech on the ground that you don’t like it? That’s troublesome.
Of course, you’re right, David (you always are) about the rules that should be followed.
But I was struck immediately by the fact that he wasn’t acting like a guest, and therefore didn’t invite that decorum. He and his crew were treating that room like it was Israel Occupied Territory, with all the pomp and circumstance, and inappropriate (according to protocol) accoutrements, and an entourage of security people beside him, and frankly, expecting to be obeyed, listened to whether the occupied liked it or not. You enter humbly into somebody else’s living room. You dont take out your dick, anoint the flags with your colors, and slam your ostentatious member down on the lectern.
He was expecting to speak to older Jews who were pre-sold on his message 60 years ago, but he was walking into a school. A school of young students, and if you listen to his opening remarks, he didn’t even bother to address them by name, as a group, even. He called them “All.” Nice to see you all, he said, and that it was five years since he was there before …. yeah, before any of those students were there. In other words, they were invisible to him and non-existent.
Mr. Big Dick Diplomacy missed the chance to say, “I want to say my warmest Shalom to the Palestinian students here today. Perhaps we’ll get a chance to talk later.”
Naaah. He treats it like a mini-AIPAC conference for the rich whitebread bobbing their heads, and was probably hoping to meet the old farts later to get some dough. Israel is absolutely fucking tone-deaf.
David Samel, one more thing: maybe it’s the vulgarity of the language, as Danaa and Shmuel have referred to it, that has now got to him, now that he speaks it full time. He’s no diplomat.
I wish they had thrown their shoes.
On 2nd thought, maybe just holding or waving their shoes or holding cartoons of Bush dodging shoes. If they had thrown shoes they would have been charged with assault and gone to jail big time.
Oy Vey Coma Va!
Did you see that Carlos Santana canceled his performance in Israel, supposedly due to anti-Israel pressure?
link to ynetnews.com
Way to go Carlos!
“There is more value in placing a flower in a rifle barrel than making war, as Jimi Hendrix used to say, musical notes have more importance than bullets.”
-Carlos Santana
Oy Very Como Va.
Screwing up a good pun is so embarrassing…
OY VEY COMO VA
G**D***** M*****F***!
You’ve forgotten two asterisks near the end.
Pingback: ZOA calls for a (much) different kind of academic boycott