New York Congressman Gary Ackerman, speaking February 7 at a congressional breakfast hosted by two Jewish groups:
"I would contend that on any given month during the war in Iraq and the war in Afgahnistan and Pakistan, in one month probably more innocent civilians are killed by American troops – unintended consequences – than in the whole Gaza incursion….
(Note that human rights organizations say that about 430 women and children were killed in the Gaza onslaught and about half of the total 1400 dead were noncombatants.)
Ackerman:
"And if the international community thinks that they can condemn Israel and accuse it of war crimes, based on the Goldstone Report, which is intended to delegitimize the very existence of the state of Israel, than it’s not just Israeli soldiers and Israeli officials, but the very president of the United States or any American soldier, if they decide to apply those same standards to us or anybody else, that’s in danger of being arrested, locked up, and put on trial in the Hague, for the same thing Israel is being accused of right now."
A couple postscripts:
Oct. 2009, Judge Richard Goldstone, talking to Bill Moyers:
Moyers: When you say, "I’m a Zionist," in your case, what does that mean?
Goldstone: Well, what it means, that I fully support Israel’s right to exist. That’s for the Jewish people to have their own national homeland, in Israel…
Moyers: Israelis claim that if you hold them to this standard that you’d just described, that law prescribes for conflict, any democracy that’s fighting terrorism is likely to find itself dragged into an international court of justice.
Goldstone: Take the United States fighting wars in Kosovo and Iraq and Afghanistan. They have certainly at a high level, gone to extremes to protect innocent civilians. Where they’ve made mistakes, and mistakes have been made, in Kosovo, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, apologies have followed. The United States, in general, has accepted and tried its best, with the assistance of military lawyers, has tried its best to avoid violating international humanitarian law. So, it seems to me this is a smokescreen. I’ve got no doubt that the laws of war are sufficient to cover the situation of fighting what is now termed asymmetric war… Assuming the United States fighting Taliban, started bombing the whole food infrastructure of the people in the area where Taliban are- plowing up fields, bombing food factories, I don’t believe that this would be accepted as legitimate by the people of the United States.
Feb. 14, 2010, McClatchy, US apologizes for killing of 12 Afghan civilians:
Two rockets landed some 300 yards off target, killing the 12 civilians and wounding one.
"We deeply regret this tragic loss of life," said Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. general who leads international forces in Afghanistan. "The current operation in Central Helmand is aimed at restoring security and stability to this vital area of Afghanistan. It’s regrettable that in the course of our joint efforts, innocent lives were lost."
McChrystal telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai to apologize for what he called the "unfortunate incident." The Afghan leader had cautioned the forces, as the operation began, to "exercise absolute caution to avoid harming civilians." The death of innocent Afghans in the war, often caused by misdirected air strikes, has inflamed public opinion in Afghanistan.
Goldstone has a pretty starry-eyed view of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you go by Iraq Body Count’s conservative (possibly ultra-conservative) numbers, the US killed about 7000 civilians in the first two months of the Iraq invasion (admittedly the bloodiest period regarding US-caused civilian casualties, according to IBC). Robert Fisk counted around 2000 US-caused civilian dead in various news accounts in Afghanistan in the first several months of the US war there back in 2001 to early 2002.
Ackerman fails to see the truth in his own words: Yes, the US leadership should be up in the dock at The Hague. Hang them first and set the precedent, then Israel won’t be able to escape.
This is a relatively new type of hasbara–it used to be people like Chomsky and Finkelstein who would compare the brutality of the US with the brutality of Israel. Then Benny Morris defended Israel’s act of ethnic cleansing by comparing it to what the US did to Native Americans, and nowadays one constantly reads Israel defenders saying that Israel is no worse than the US.
It’s actually a good strategy–people in Washington and London have no desire to set a precedent by having Israeli officials tried for war crimes, because they know what skeletons are buried in their own closets. People like Ackerman are just pointing this out in their own way. It’s utterly cynical, but it will probably work.
So, after ‘Everything Sucks,’ do they just go back to ‘We Rock’ or does something actually happen?
“…people in Washington and London have no desire to set a precedent by having Israeli officials tried for war crimes…”
Washington, definitely not; but London is almost another universe –the Livni Scare was real, the Brits really did revoke a number of arms export licenses to Israel and Chilcot is ongoing. With Britain broke and Brown cornered, who knows what comes next?
Yeah, on second thought you might be right about London. Glenn Greenwald has written a few things on this where he basically agrees with you.
There you go potsherd, that I can agree with whole heartedly
Ackerman: trying so hard to spin israel’s inhumanity and war crimes … just a few differences between IDF and American “collateral damage” … I don’t think our U.S. soldiers used white phosphorus on civilians, nor targeted UN buildings where civilians were known to be seeking shelter, nor clearly-marked ambulances, nor schools, nor food distribution centers … keep trying Ackerman and fellow zio-agents …
Kudos to Goldstone for blowing away the smoke with facts
“I don’t think our U.S. soldiers used white phosphorus on civilians, nor targeted UN buildings where civilians were known to be seeking shelter’
Actually, the US were the first to use WP in Fallujah 2004.
The US also targetted a building that Al Jazeera was stationed at.
While our government is certainly not blameless, US incidents were not the result of longstanding state policy supporting occupation, ethnic cleansing, and colonization. To the best of my knowledge, the misuse of WP in Falujah in 2004 has not been repeated. The United States does not attack Al Jazeera, or any other news agency, on a regular basis with intent to kill personnel and destroy physical assets.
The United States hasn’t sewn farmland in Taliban sympathetic areas with aged (and hence much more unlikely to detonate, leaving the munition as a land mine) cluster bombs in an attempt to get the uncooperative population to leave by trying to hinder their acquisition of sustenance. Whatever one may think of the strategic objectives behind US policy, we have consistently tried top build economic infrastructure in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel deliberately targets it both in Gaza and the West Bank. What is the theft of Palestinian farmland if not an effort to deny them the sustenance necessary to remain in their homes? We don’t go into Iraqi or Afghani towns and smash computers and burn civil documents like birth, death, and marriage certificates.
Operation Destroy the Data, Amira Hass, Haaretz, April 24, 2002 / Iyyar 12, 5762
Operation Destroy Data, Amira Hass, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 31, No. 4, pp. 119-120
Where do you think Israel got the WP?
RE: Goldstone Standard Could be Trouble for U.S. – Rep. Ackerman
Que sera, sera.
Submitted by DICKERSON3870 on Tue, 02/09/2010 – 12:19.
So much for Israel as “the light unto nations”!
What’s good for the goose…
Submitted by DICKERSON3870 on Mon, 02/15/2010 – 23:31.
RE: Goldstone Standard Could be Trouble for U.S. – Rep. Ackerman
MY COMMENT: Bring it on! (channeling George W. Bush) Faster please! (channeling Michael Ledeen)
Israel declared a state of war with Gaza? When?
OT.
Read MJ Rosenberg posted three hours ago:
No, The Arabs Don’t Want The Jews Dead
link to tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com
All of this blog chat (Ackerman or anyone else) is useless until a majority of Americans reach the tipping-point, and start to blame Israel for many of their problems (as they should). Of course, this will lead to a massive increase in ‘antisemitism’ (as it should).
One of the first defences that Israel put up against Goldstone was that other countries did worse (specifically their super-daddy, the US, with its ‘collateral damage’ nonsense). So they pleaded that ‘antisemites’ were treating them unfairly.
But, as radii says, not even ‘our soldiers’ from the US have overtly used white phosphorous, DIME, cluster bombs, or other banned weapons against concentrations of civilians, as Israel did on an area only 40 miles from its own main city, Tel Aviv.
The US has, at least, the excuse that their actions affect countries half a world away, where they haven’t a clue who they’re hitting, and don’t really care anyway.
Well, it’s nice to see Ackerman is showing his keen sense of loyalty and patriotism…
“The US has, at least, the excuse that their actions affect countries half a world away, where they haven’t a clue who they’re hitting, and don’t really care anyway. “
… I would add that many the U.S. soldiers to whom this refers are between 18 and 24 and had a choice of working at the local WalMart or joining the military as their key job opportunities in their backwater towns between the coasts and probably can’t even name the current U.S. vice-president let alone have the slightest understanding of the geopolitical issues underlying the war they now fight. The brighter ones with more videogame skills get to fly remote drones and watch as real people are blown up on their computer screens while the regular stiffs get to “mow the grass.”
I like your addition, radii.
Of course, this will lead to a massive increase in ‘antisemitism’ (as it should).
No, it should not. It should lead to a massive increase in anti-Zionism.
I think it will lead to an increase in antisemitism, with its degree lessened in proportion to efforts of American Jews to put a public Jewish face onto opposition to Israeli government occupation, ethnic cleansing, and colonization, and especially America’s role in financing and facilitating it.
I agree with Colin Murray here.
“And if the international community thinks that they can condemn Israel and accuse it of war crimes, based on the Goldstone Report.. .blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
This is the funniest damn thing in the world. Really. I’m still laughing:
U.S Army Chief: “Iran attack option on the table”
14 Feb 2010
link to dover.idf.il
I hope Ackerman keeps on opening his trap. He’s going to fall into his own gaping maw.
The taxpayers of the US need to see these statements, need to be shown where their dollars are going, to the aid of a foreign government and not their own country.
from Is Iran Running a Bluff?
Last week, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told the world that Iran, unable to get fuel rods from the West for its U.S.-built reactor, which makes medical isotopes, had begun to enrich its own uranium to 20 percent.
From his perch in the West Wing, [White House Press Secretary Robert] Gibbs scoffed: “He [Ahmadinejad] says many things, and many of them turn out to be untrue. We do not believe they have the capability to enrich to the degree to which they now say they are enriching.”
But wait a minute. If Iran does not “have the capability” to enrich to 20 percent for fuel rods, how can Iran enrich to 90 percent for a bomb?
This Admiral should read a little I-P history. I guess that’s too much to ask. His lethal toy boats sitting in the constricted Gulf waters will be easy targets.
“about half of the total 1400 dead were noncombatants.”
I would dispute this figure. 86% of Hamas revenue goes directly into social programs. It follows that the greatest proportion of Hamas operatives are performing civilian functions. Israel makes no distinction.
Thus the guy supervising food distribution is a “Hamas Operative”.
Furthermore, everyone who picks up a rifle to defend his home and family is not necessarily a militant. One has only to empathize; to imagine what the situation would be like in one’s own city if it were under attack by a foreign and somewhat brutal force. Many Joe Citizens would grab a rifle if they could.
For the purposes of hasbara however, all of the above are excluded from the “civilian” body count.
So Ackerman justifies Israeli massacres by saying his own country is worse. Just how ingrained is Zionism in US politics? This is breathtaking.
“You suck.” Cleverly (not!) disguised as “We suck.”
Koshiro, the number 3 “You Suck! and No. 4 “The Whole Fleshugganna World Sucks! are the two hasbara axioms which are susceptible to all kinds of interesting inversions, somersaults and half-twists.
And they usually break down into the most breathtaking basics, as Mohammad Alsaafin points out, above.
For Hasbara by-the-numbers, see: link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Human rights organizations’ conservative estimates determined that more than half of the dead were civilians, like B’Tselem. “The magnitude of the harm to the population was unprecedented: 1,385 Palestinians were killed, 762 of whom did not take part in the hostilities.” link to btselem.org
Note that B’Tselem, I believe, does not include the police officers murdered in the first few minutes of the attack.
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights: “Over the course of the offensive, Israeli occupation forces killed 1,419 Palestinians, and wounded over 5,300. The vast majority of those killed were civilians entitled to full protection and immunity from
attack under IHL (1,167 protected persons, 82.2%); 326 were children, and 111 were women. This figure includes the 251 non-combatant police officers killed during the offensive. These policemen were not members of an armed group and were not participating in hostilities; their targeting and wilful killing constitutes a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions.”