Nice little obfuscation from Clinton

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 107 Comments
She added: "But we believe that through good-faith negotiations, the parties can mutually agree to an outcome which ends the conflict and reconciles the Palestinian goal of an independent and viable state based on the ’67 lines, with agreed swaps, and Israel’s goal of a Jewish state with secure and recognized borders that reflect subsequent developments and meet Israel’s security requirements." 
"Subsequent developments"? She means law-breaking settlement activity.
 
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  1. Citizen
    April 16, 2010, 8:58 am

    Funny, Hillary never mentions the equal need for subsequent developments that secure a viable state for the Pals. I bet she does not even see the discrepacy; wait, I bet she does, but she’s playing the usual game, catering to
    the moneybags and MSM she needs to assure her own continued political power. BTW, did her daughter ever get married to that Goldman Sachs minion kid?

    • Citizen
      April 16, 2010, 8:59 am

      You can put a slim and cute bracelet on a thick ankle, but all it does is magnify the
      (moral/ethical) thickness of the ankle.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:15 am

        Citizen,

        Unlike you, Clinton is not an hypocrite. After a war or a series of wars, which side is going to get the better deal, the side that lost or the side that won?

        In 1948 Israel lost the battle for Eastern Jerusalem. Could any Israeli Jew got to the Kotel to pray till 1967 when we took it back? Of course not. Did the world care, of course not. Why? Because the Arabs won the battle for Jerusalem. Facts on the ground matter and need to be taken into account in any peaceful agreement. The large settlement blocks will be part of Israel in any peaceful solution.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 9:19 am

        Unlike you, Clinton is not an hypocrite.

        LOL! That’s classic. Not even liberal Americans are willing to say that.

        After a war or a series of wars, which side is going to get the better deal, the side that lost or the side that won?

        So you really want to go back to the era of world wars and colonial domination, eee? Miss those days, huh? Because I’m sure your grandparents wouldn’t.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 9:23 am

        Hey, eee, how’r you doin’? Glad to see you are a Goering clone. Now, that’s a set of principles we can all get down on here on Mondoweiss!
        I notice you also are a great advocate of Himmler’s POV, with the names exchanged to protect the “innocent.” Not to mention, as I commented in a prior post recently here, you advocate all the usual
        pre-20th Century American history examples to justify your POV, thus echoing Adolph in Mein Kampt. Keep it up. You’re doing a convincing job here!

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:24 am

        Why weren’t my grandparents the colonialists that took over Palestine? You keep contradicting yourself.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 9:25 am

        oops, typo error: Mein Kampf, not Mein Kampt.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 9:29 am

        Eee, what on earth are you talking about? You remind me of an ice cream cone that keeps licking itself. We know you like your flavor, but you are doing a really poor job of selling it to us.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:31 am

        Why, weren’t my grandparents the colonialists that took over Palestine? You keep contradicting yourself.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:33 am

        Citizen,

        Were the Jews allowed or not to pray at the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967? It is a simple question. If not why not? And what did the international community do about it?

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 9:36 am

        Your grandparents were also victims of Nazi colonial aggression. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

        Anyway, the days of taking land by force of arms came to an end with the founding of the UN and the signing of various treaties. And you reject that, openly?

        You are the hypocrite. If you really embraced the practices you forward, ideologically, then you and your family should be nothing more than ash sprinkled across the Polish countryside right now.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:45 am

        Yeah? Then how come Russia still holds one third of Finland?

        The Arabs started the 67 war and lost. It is fitting they pay a price. The Arabs rejected the 47 UN compromise. It is fitting they pay a price. The Arabs took over the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem and annexed it, again without any international uproar. They denied Jews the right to worship at their most holy location. The world was silent. Go give your BS lessons to someone else. You are just using international law to bludgeon Israel.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 9:48 am

        You’re just reciting Israeli foreign ministry press releases and propagandized claptrap at us when the vast majority of us know the actual historical facts.

        The more children you slaughter, the more land you steal, and then turn around, claim victimhood and try to hide behind your “Jewishness” as a shield from criticism, the more you will drive Jews away from you.

        Keep it up.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:52 am

        You are a liar. What have I written that is false?

        Care to answer the question:
        Were the Jews allowed or not to pray at the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967? It is a simple question. If not why not? And what did the international community do about it?

        Did the Arabs annex or not the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem?

        What are the historical facts?
        Do you deny that Jews were not given access to the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967 until Israel took it by force?

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 10:02 am

        The international community has supported the state of Israel since its inception to the tune of 12 trillion dollars to date; that’s only direct aid dollars. That for a nation comparatively the size of a pea in the context of nations. Pretty amazing considering the bigoted rascist/ethnic/religious nature of Israel. Some might even say that the millions of gentiles who died in WW2 to protect basic human rights was an extra tab paid. If the same aid was given to the innocent Palestinians, Israel would be facing F-16′s loaded with white phosporus and Apache attack helicopters,
        and the Palestinians would have at least as good a socialized health care system as Israel. And Abrams tanks would be at the Palestinian disposal–an easy counter to the Merkava.

      • braciole
        April 16, 2010, 10:11 am

        The 1967 war started with “pre-emptive” attacks by Israel. Since Egypt had no intention of attacking Israel and had communicated that to Washington who passed on the information to Tel Aviv, then there was nothing to “pre-empt” so the 1967 was a war of naked agression by Israel similar to that by Germany on Poland in 1939. Since then appeasers in the US and certain other countries have ensured that Israel has hung on to its illegal gains.

        Which raises a further point, eee. According to your logic, Germany, having captured western Poland in war in response to an alleged Polish attack on Germany was fully entitled to retain control of it. Furthermore, according to your logic, it was wrong of France and Great Britain to demand that Germany withdraw from Poland and that World War 2 was really a war of agression by France and Great Britain on Germany.

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 10:13 am

        eee – you are weakenning. It’s about the western wall now? wanna talk about ’48 then?

        “Were the Jews allowed or not to pray at the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967?”

        Were the palestinians allowed or not to go to the beaches of tel aviv and naharia between 1948 and 1967?

        Better yet, were the israelis of arab descent under military law since ’48 and forbidden any and all human rights till the late ’50s? beyond that is there or isn’t there rampant discrimination against actual ethnic israelis who are not certifyably “jewish”, whatever that means?

        It’s one thing to bring up examples of Jim Crow south, and claim that vestiges persist to this day. It’s another to see the active segregation and discrimination still being practiced by the Israeli establishment – and it’s entitled ‘citizenry” in a concerted campaign to deny universal human rights citizens – on the basis of supposed ethnicity, especially seeing that the arabic people of Israel are so much more jewish than you will ever be –eee…

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 10:25 am

        Eee, look at a map. Finland is a very small country, and weak in every way (except morally and ethically) compared to the state of Russia; in this sense, Finland is akin to the Palestinians, who don’t even have a state to call their own (so they are not protected by sovereign immunity) as Finland does. Further, why do you insist on endlessly spouting out hasara pt # 3 (if memory serves), to wit:
        the whole world is BS, so why pick on Israel?

        The Arabs did not start the 67 war. This was a war instigated by Israel, a pretextual, preemptive war–built on Israel pretext. Over the last 3 years all the details of same have been given on this blog, and any reader here can google to affirm easily. Israel uses international law to justify its existence, and ignores it to
        commit internationally recognised crimes. What bothers me most as an American, is that we pay for this criminal Israeli activity, and we are suffering the consequences in both blood and treasure.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 10:41 am

        Danaa,

        It is about Jerusalem, motek. How nonchalantly you compare going to the beach to praying at Judaism’s most holy site. How easily you justify Arabs denying Jews the right to pray at the Kotel but you would never approve of Israel doing such a thing. It is also about the fact that the international community did nothing about it. There were ZERO Arab liberals that were advocating in their own countries to let the Jews pray at the Western Wall.

        In short all you liberal BS and “international law” babble is nothing you really take seriously. It is just something to bludgeon Israel with.

      • braciole
        April 16, 2010, 10:44 am

        As usual, eee, you are once again selective with your facts just like the Israeli government. Is this “economy with the truth” part of the syllabus in Israeli schools as it is in certain English schools?

        Perhaps if the approximately seven hundred thousand Palestinians that had be illegally ethnically-cleansed from Israel as a result of murder, rape and pillage by Jewish forces pre-1948 and Israeli forces post -1948 had been allowed to return to their homes, there might have been sympathy for your claims.

        On the otherhand, are Muslims from the West Bank free to pray at the al-Aqsa mosque? Are Muslims from Gaza free to pray at the al-Aqsa mosque.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 10:46 am

        Citizen,

        Solve the Finnish problem first and leave Israel alone. Fix your own racist country, by closing the huge difference in SAY scores between whites and blacks. FIX YOU OWN HOME instead of picking on small Israel. You are the superpower, we are nothing.

        The 67 war was instigated by Nasser blockading the Straits of Tiran and by the US not willing to lead an international fleet to open them. Israel was left alone to defend itself. All those cheering at Israel’s imminent demise in June 67 soon received a wake up slap in the face.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 10:48 am

        “On the otherhand, are Muslims from the West Bank free to pray at the al-Aqsa mosque? Are Muslims from Gaza free to pray at the al-Aqsa mosque.”

        The short answer is yes, when there is no violence. For years, until the first intifada, Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza could come to Jerusalem to pray without any problems.

      • pabelmont
        April 16, 2010, 10:53 am

        We must all distinguish between [1] bargaining for peace and [2] bargaining for the rules of belligerent occupation.

        As to [1]: agree that a “peace” freely (!?) negotiated between vastly differently empowered sides may well favor the stronger side. (Therefore, I favor a UNSC thumb on the scale.)

        But as to [2]: The international community wrote the rules of belligerent occupation a long time ago and the rules, even if not sufficient to cover all contingencies, are still good rules which should be kept. Under these rules the settlers and the wall should be removed. The settlements (buildings) probably fall within the same legal rules as the wall, so that, following the ICJ July 9, 2004, ruling, they should be reduced to rubble; and this seems good to me, even though housing is desperately needed by Palestinians, in order to show Israel that the US/UN/EU mean business — and that the law is the law — “pacta sunt servanda” (agreements should be kept), as they say.

        Removing the settlers and the wall are only temporary steps and they are only steps which relate to occupation. Israel may, perhaps, endlessly refuse to make peace (and so may the PLO). But for so long as the occupation lasts, the settlers must not be permitted to reside in OPTs.

        After the occupation ends, Jews may live anywhere they like — if the powers that be welcome them. Just as Palestinian refugees may live wherever they like, even in pre-1967 Israel, providing that Israel welcomes them. States govern their own immigration, subject to treaties such as the peace treaty we all talk about.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 10:59 am

        Weren’t we going to put this troll on bread and water?

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 11:07 am

        Pabelmont,

        Are you serious? You are so blind that you think international law is the same as the law as practiced in democratic countries? International law is just a weapon states use against each other. Israel’s interests come before international law. That is how ALL countries treat international law. Of course, you want to use it to bludgeon Israel. Irrational hatred anyone?

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 11:15 am

        Citizen and eee – ah, Finland. A country where I spent some time, only to find out the Finns have no intention of being riled up, no matter how hard I tried. Certainly not against the Russians – to whom they, a country of mere 5 M, gave a serious drubbing. Following which they called it a victory, stole some canons as decoration, and proceeded to concentrate on poking the Swedes – who, after all were far more successful at colonizing poor little Finland – what with street signs having to carry Swedish words and all, just for starters. As for the Russians – they are begging to settle in Finland – an employment position there for a Russian is considered totally rad. So it’s the Finns who win at the end – and get the Russians to tow their version of history.

        Going back to little israel, where 7 M are spread densely in a country less than 1/50th the size of Finland, well, it may be true that geography is destiny. Sure, Finland has ice and sunless winter, but Israel has too-sunny deserts and humid, hot summer. Israel may have the mediterranean sea – increasingly polluting it – and over-building on it, as fast as they can – but Finland has 1000′s of lakes with every Finn – no matter how poor – having a little dacha by the lake. Which, mind you, they like to build themselves, right along with a cute little outhouse,, of which they are usually most proud.

        I always thought that the solution to the ME is to have a temporary population exchange – all Finns to israel, all israelis (arabs too!) to Finland. A year later, after a long dark Finnish winter, I predict there’ll be peace among the inhabitants, an every individual will have their own political party – and piece of a lake, a broken sauna to fix, and an outhouse to show the zionist guests from america. problem is the Finns – they may not want to go back, or worse yet, having changed all the street signs to at least two (if not 5) equally incomprehensible and unreadable languages, they’ll start importing Russians and swedes so they have someone to kick around with – who actually cares to read those signs.

        At least the Finland and Israel share a time zone, so not too much adjustment on that score……

        Homework for eee, who claims to be an Israeli: would the Judeans want to go back to ‘lil ol’ Israel after a year in a place with 100,000s acres and 1000s lakes? You are allowed BTW to travel during that year, just not to the ME. But you’ll have to be able to communicate with the Norwegians and the Laps in the north (they are not going anywhere. ever tried to move a lap?) or else. Oh yes, please limit your answer to 5000 words or less, and distinguish among the attitudes of Judeans – orthodox and not, arabs, druz and ethiopians (oh yes, they’ll have to go too!). Grading is on a scale and the graders are a dysfunctional team of an ex-israeli Finn and an ex-Finnish israeli.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 11:35 am

        Danna,

        Well then, since so many Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza want to work in Israel, it is clear who won. Now they just have to accept it.

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 12:05 pm

        That’s it, eee? I gave you up to 5000 words! be creative now, will you? think ice, think winter sun, aurora borealis, [cruise] ships passing in the night. Think Finland, the little country that could, swallowing the big Russian bear (this should be your talking point, BTW). We all want to see some evidence of original thinking on your part – won’t you give us an essay?

        PS maybe that’s the problem – too muchh in-breeding for you?

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 12:36 pm

        Danna,

        I have been on business to Helsinki and Turku. I understand why Finland is ranked 10th in the world in suicide while Israel is ranked way down on the list. You see, I look at facts and figures. You imagine perfect worlds and think that is reality.

      • Sumud
        April 16, 2010, 1:35 pm

        “The Arabs started the 67 war and lost. ”

        Yet it is known as the Six Day War, not the Twenty One Day War.

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 1:37 pm

        Shmuel “Weren’t we going to put this troll on bread and water?”

        Sorry but it’s just too tempting sometimes (and we are not all equally good at resisting temptation). Look what he has done now – he’s offended israeli beaches – and the whole culture that goes with it. As a once-glorious beach girl, I take serious exception to such offense against my religion (which, as you may well know IS true religion – maybe the only one – for many in the holy land). Now I’ll just have to yell at him again (yes, I realize he enjoys that…darn – that’s the problem with masochists).

        Not to mention that he took pot shot at Finland – one of my totally favorite places in the world. The sacriledge!

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 1:38 pm

        Shmuel,

        No offense, but I can tell you from experience, backing away from bullies doesn’t make them go away and doesn’t make them quiet down. If you don’t want to confront him, then don’t.

        Myself? I think it’s good that we have someone like eee representing the face of Israel as it is today. This makes demonstrating what Israel is really like so much easier to the rest of the readership.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 1:42 pm

        The six day war is more catchy.
        There is no question that the Arabs started the war. A naval blockade is an act of war, and Nasser closed the Tiran Straits to Israelis shipping thus shutting down sea traffic to the port of Eilat.

      • MRW
        April 16, 2010, 1:47 pm

        eee, Moshe Dyan would beg to differ. He told an Israeli journalist who agreed not to print it until he died that Israel started The Six Day War. You should read more. It was on Israeli TV as well. We covered this a couple of years ago on this site.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 1:49 pm

        A naval blockade is an act of war

        Then by your own exacting definition, eee, Israel violated the terms of the cease fire on Gaza the very first day into it, by refusing to lift the naval blockade.

      • Sumud
        April 16, 2010, 1:50 pm

        “That is how ALL countries treat international law. Of course, you want to use it to bludgeon Israel. Irrational hatred anyone?”

        You’re being ridiculous. The call for Israel to follow the law could be replaced with a call for countries to mount an armed attack on Israel killing all the jews. In my mind that would be an example of irrational hatred.

        Really, if Israel is so determined to ignore international law then perhaps it is time to withdraw from the UN altogether. Bear in mind, Nasrallah has promised to redraw boundaries if Israel attacks Lebanon again, so you’ll have no recourse on lost territory. Would that please you?

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 1:50 pm

        Danaa,

        Could you in some part of your rambling and sleep inducing answer address the following: How will your children and in general the children of intermarriages remain Jews, meaning either practicing Judaism or being connected to Israel.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 1:54 pm

        Chaos,

        I have no problem confronting 3e and have done so, but I don’t think he’s a bully or that ignoring him is “backing away”. He is here mostly to distract and to provoke, using whatever arguments happen to suit these purposes. Distraction and provocation cannot work if no one is distracted or provoked into playing along. Lies sometimes need contrasting, but otherwise, he’s best left to play with himself.

        Of course we’ve had this discussion before, about RW, but this forum is getting harder to follow and less worth following – in direct proportion to the amount of pointless back and forth with the trolls.

      • Sumud
        April 16, 2010, 1:56 pm

        “The six day war is more catchy.”

        I know kids are programmed for war in Israel but I somehow doubt that “catchy” was Rabin’s intention in naming it so. Six Days for six days of war, the blockade of Gaza ..oops, I mean the Straits were just a prelude.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 1:58 pm

        Nothing’s stopping you guys from starting conversations elsewhere on the blog. In point of fact, while people like me are tying up idiots like eee, you guys can concentrate on having a conversation elsewhere without having him swoop in and crap all over your snap dragons.

        Do you not understand why I am really doing this? :)

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 1:58 pm

        Sumud,

        Are you going to ignore the basic fact that as long as the Arabs thought they could get their way with war they pursued war and when they realized Israel was too strong, they started talking about international law? Who are they kidding? The Arabs would not even accept the UN resolution about the right of return because it recognized Israel!

        ALL countries use international law as a means to further their national interests, especially the 5 permanent members of the UNSC.

        As for your naive question about Nasrallah, let me ask you this. Had Israel lost the 48 war do you think that there would be a Jewish state? Of course not. The Arabs would have just ignored the international law because it was their interest to do so. Nasrallah is already disregarding 1701 and nobody really cares.

      • Sumud
        April 16, 2010, 2:00 pm

        “Of course we’ve had this discussion before, about RW”

        ..what was the outcome? I’m guessing to not boycott.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 2:01 pm

        Danaa,

        As a former Jerusalemite, I don’t get beaches (although contrary to coastal folk tales, most of us actually can swim), but I respect your religious beliefs and sacred right – nay, duty – to uphold them.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 2:02 pm

        Are you going to ignore the basic fact that as long as the Arabs thought they could get their way with war they pursued war and when they realized Israel was too strong, they started talking about international law?

        So you’re a telepath? You can confirm empirically what all of the Arabs were thinking? Also, Arabs are supposed to be some kind of hive mind now?

        Who actually stole land in the war, eee? Why actually violated modern international law and took land by force of arms? Wasn’t any Arab states, not in 1967.

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 2:03 pm

        hey Shmuel re “Of course we’ve had this discussion before, about RW, but this forum is getting harder to follow and less worth following – in direct proportion to the amount of pointless back and forth with the trolls.”:

        true, but you gotta admit that some of us have managed to snatch drops of inspiration from the jaws of trivial banter!

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 2:03 pm

        The Arabs would have just ignored the international law because it was their interest to do so.

        Why should we assume that Arab governments would have behaved as atrociously as Israel? I don’t really see an precedent.

      • olive
        April 16, 2010, 2:06 pm

        So you agree that a blockade constitutes an act of war?

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 2:13 pm

        Chaos,

        There are no troll-free zones here, and you’re not tying him up. Without responses, the volume of his comments would be reduced manyfold, even if it does take a little while before he gets fed up and walks away.

        And no, I don’t understand why you are really doing this, beyond perhaps relishing a good fight. I just wish you could take it outside.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 2:16 pm

        Some things are worth fighting for, Shmuel.

        You’re hopelessly naive if you think he’s going to just go away, and not dog everyone else given half the chance. And anyway, like I’ve said repeatedly, he’s doing us a great service by giving us a voice from Israel. I think American Jews really do need to see how Israeli Jews perceive them.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 2:16 pm

        true, but you gotta admit that some of us have managed to snatch drops of inspiration from the jaws of trivial banter!

        Duly admitted, but I bet you could snatch drops of inspiration from a phonebook ;-)

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 2:19 pm

        I don’t see this as fighting for anything. Even if he doesn’t go away, he’ll certainly create a lot less clutter, if ignored. I also don’t see him as a voice of anything. He has no substance.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 2:27 pm

        With all due respect, Shmuel, you don’t have an American perspective on eee and what he represents, per se.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 2:55 pm

        As with RW, I’ll leave you to it, but between Phil’s self-appointed minder, Mr. you stole from the Mexicans so shut up ‘coz now it’s our turn, and his buddy BSD – “build, baby, build” – UNIX, I’m going to have to give my scroll down finger a raise or look for snapdragons elsewhere.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 2:59 pm

        You realize this is how they’ve been hijacking American political discourse for decades, right? Drowning out conversation, stealing all of the oxygen, presenting a facade of consensus and counting on people to just back down.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 3:11 pm

        Apples and oranges, Chaos. This isn’t DC or the networks. The net doesn’t work that way, and these guys are 6th rate hacks. They’re here to teach us “anti-Semites” a lesson and have a bit of fun. They are not here to win hearts and minds. They are majorly taking the piss out of you. You may have more experience with the US than me, but I’ve known this particular variety of creep since before you were born (if you’ll excuse my using the age card).

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 3:14 pm

        And did they go away, when you ignored them? What crimes did you see taking place in Israel were stopped by you falling silent, exactly?

        I can tell you my experience with what silence leads to in the United States, if you like. I have friends who are US vets, who are peace activists, and who are Middle Eastern in descent — and many who are some combination of the above.

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2010, 3:49 pm

        I’m not talking about falling silent, Chaos, but about ignoring inconsequential jerks who want nothing more than to distract you from saying anything worthwhile.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 3:52 pm

        Shmuel, I live in the United States. Inconsequential jerks own the forums of debate, by and large. It’s really rather unavoidable, and pretending like Mondoweiss is somehow sheltered from the propaganda machine just because you won’t get your lily white hands dirty, will change nothing.

      • sherbrsi
        April 16, 2010, 4:11 pm

        It is just something to bludgeon Israel with.

        Israel made ITSELF the enemy of international law, by adopting the racist and criminal colonialist ideology of Zionism.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 5:31 pm

        Great, eee, you use Hitler and Manson thinking to justify Israel’s activities. Better watch out, remember what happened to Jeff D, and by whom, and also remember that, unlike Manson, Dahmer was totally honest–he wanted concerned citizens to delve into his motivations.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 5:43 pm

        Great. eee, keep it up with hasbara talking point # 3; check Mooser to see if that’s the hasbara talking points number–whatever happened to the Finn people, and those for or against that, does nothing in the case of Israel’s slow murdering of the Palestinian people–with weapons paid for by the US taxpayers.

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 5:46 pm

        Duly admitted, but I bet you could snatch drops of inspiration from a phonebook ;-)

        Touche – and thanks for the belated comp….

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 5:50 pm

        RE: “Israel’s interests come before international law.”
        This is exactly what Goering said. And what Hitler and Himmler said. (Nazi) Germany’s interests came before international law.
        Hey, eee, you’re in reasonable company!

      • Donald
        April 16, 2010, 6:28 pm

        On the troll issue, Chaos, I think Shmuel has a point, which will sound funny coming from me, one of RW’s constant feeders. I reply to RW because his combination of Tikkun-style peace rhetoric with tribalistic morality gets under my skin. I think some reply to him is worthwhile, but I do it too much and the same for some others who respond. As far as having a conversation with him is concerned, it’s usually a waste of time, as his defense mechanisms keep him from admitting any fact that hits him too hard.

        I don’t personally find anything worth a reply in what triple e or the operating system have to say, except maybe once in a very long while. Their stuff is self-refuting. RW claims to be compassionate–that’s what is irritating to me. The other two don’t bother–in fact Witty gets into arguments with them, which does show he’s sincere in his limited way.

      • Shingo
        April 16, 2010, 7:04 pm

        “Were the Jews allowed or not to pray at the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967? It is a simple question. If not why not?”

        Jews weren;t allowed into Jordania territory. It had nothign to do with the Wall. And why should you care anyway? Aren’t you an antheist?

      • Shingo
        April 16, 2010, 7:05 pm

        “The Arabs started the 67 war and lost”

        False. Menachem Begin and Yitzak Rabin say otherwise.

        “The Arabs rejected the 47 UN compromise. “‘

        So did Israel.

      • Shingo
        April 16, 2010, 7:09 pm

        “Are you going to ignore the basic fact that as long as the Arabs thought they could get their way with war they pursued war and when they realized Israel was too strong, they started talking about international law?””

        You mean like Israel suddenyl finding religion and deciding that UN resolutions are a great idea when they are directed at someone else?

        “‘The Arabs would not even accept the UN resolution about the right of return because it recognized Israel!”‘

        False again. 22 Arab States have signed a peace offer which recognizes Israel as per the 1967 borders.

        “Had Israel lost the 48 war do you think that there would be a Jewish state? “‘

        Had there been no 1948 war, there would have been no Jewish state.

        Has Israel not carries out it’s polanned ethnic cleansing, there would have been no Jewish state.

        “”Nasrallah is already disregarding 1701 and nobody really cares. “‘

        False. Nasrallah is now a ecognized political leader, not the head of a militia.

      • Avi
        April 16, 2010, 11:11 pm

        eee wrote:

        Were the Jews allowed or not to pray at the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967? It is a simple question. If not why not? And what did the international community do about it?

        Israelis were not allowed to pray there, understandably, due to the war.

        Were there any cases of Jews with French passports or Jews with Chinese passports who entered Jordan from places other than Israel, not allowed into Jordan to pray in East Jerusalem?

        Even today, Israel harasses non-Muslim/non-Arab tourists who enter the state through neighboring Arab countries. So, even if Jordan did not allow Jews with foreign passports into Jordan coming from Israel, why were the Jordanians so out of line to have refused them entry?

        Are you making the argument that since Israelis were mostly Jews, and Israelis were not allowed to enter East Jerusalem to pray during 1948-1967, then Jordan was singling out Jews on purpose?

        That seems illogical to me, but perhaps you could convince me otherwise.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2010, 2:01 pm

        “And what did the international community do about it?”
        You should try to depend less on the international community. Take it from me, eee, they’re a bunch of anti-semites.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2010, 2:10 pm

        This from the atheist Jew? So he doesn’t believe in God, but Palestinians must die or be dispossessed so “your children and in general the children of intermarriages remain Jews”?

        Gosh, one could never ever suspect a bit of self-servingness in eee’s arguments, no sir, not a drop!

  2. Richard Witty
    April 16, 2010, 9:00 am

    More anonymous intuition.

  3. Chaos4700
    April 16, 2010, 9:13 am

    I think at this point everyone recognizes that when Israel squawks, US politicians jump to it. There really isn’t any illusion any more that US involvement in I/P represents anything more than earning campaign finance (and avoiding the Zionist “veto”) from AIPAC.

    • Citizen
      April 16, 2010, 9:33 am

      The hasbara agents here retain their racial/ethnic/religious fantasy. They have no basis to do so,
      so they accuse the rest of us (Jews and Gentiles) of being anti-semites or self-hating Jews by conflating our specific references to AIPAC with the entire global Jewish community, whether residing in Israel or the diaspora.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:38 am

        When Cliff write that the Jews corrupted the US congress that is not conflating.

        You make AIPAC to be some giant when in fact its total budget is about $60 million per year. The budget of the NRA is $200 million. AIPAC is successful not because of its money but because of its focus. It picks the correct battles and always makes sure that what it advocates has ample public support. AIPAC is a completely legal organization. You have a problem with the US public, not with AIPAC. So why are you blaming AIPAC?

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 9:42 am

        AIPAC is successful not because of its money but because of its focus.

        Actually, it’s successful because you have the ADL, MEMRI, and about a dozen other front companies shilling for Israel, all working together. Lucky you, you can point to any one of them and say, “See? The only control $60 million.”

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:48 am

        Yeah, right, the “Joos” are everywhere. I forgot, it on page 142 of the Odessa edition of the “Protocols”.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 9:50 am

        Whenever a copy of that book sells, do you get a cut of the profits? It’s the only reason I can think of for why you keep pushing an obvious forgery in your posts instead of talking about the actual debate in terms of facts.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 9:54 am

        I don’t know, your post are directly from the “Protocols”. It seems you have several copies and have read them and are using them extensively.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 10:03 am

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

        Noun, verb, anti-Semite. It’s the only song you know.

        Why don’t you give another delightful post about how American Jews are going to just disappear because they aren’t “Jewish” enough. I think that tells them where the real attacks on the Jewish of America are coming from.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 10:45 am

        The NRA is a lobby solely dedicated to Americans, and it effects nobody but Americans. It is grounded in the historical fact that
        the USA is a government of the people, and that the state is the servant of the people; and when that is in doubt, the minute man
        still is viable. The Kennedy brothers fought (along with other high-ranking people in State and DOD) to require the zionist organization, parent to AIPAC, to register as the foreign agent of Israel–unfortunately both Kennedy brothes involved were murdered, and Johnson came to power, the same guy who deep-sixed the investigation of the sinking of the USS Liberty; last month a complaint was made to the US government, asking it, once again, to make AIPAC register itself as the lobby of a foreign country, Israel. Walnut shell games and labels excluding “zionist” and including “American” will no longer do. The org creed is in the verbal and moneybags transfer deed. The issue of the legality and status of AIPAC has a long history. Blank check Public support of Israel has been totally dependent on MSM keeping information from the American public. I don’t have a problem with the US public, but I have a problem with the AIPAC-orchestrated muzzle put on data given to them, so they cannot act as fully informed and hence responsible citizens, in behalf of the USA and the World’s best interests.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 10:49 am

        Hey, eee, don’t forget the other side of the coin, on one side, the Joos are everywhere, and on the other side, the anti-semites are everwhere. Now there’s a coin that has endless currency. Hitler and Begin have carried on the value, yes?

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 10:52 am

        Hey, there’s the original Holocaust, and now its sequel, The Silent Holocaust. Talk about the best of all possible worlds! Pangloss would know! No wonder Candide went home to tend his literal garden.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 10:54 am

        Conspiracies built over nonsense built over conspiracies. The poor American public is being hoodwinked and corrupted by the rich Jews who are really loyal to Israel.

        We have heard it all before and we know exactly what kind of person you are.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 11:08 am

        No conspiracy implied at all. It’s right out in plain view. I suggest your read W & M The Israel Lobby, and The Transparent Cabal, both easily available via google to interested readers on Amazon. You might also peek at Finklestein’s work; of course that’s just for starters for you newbies coming to this issue. By “we have heard it all before” you are implying I am a Gentile who hates all Jews simply because they are Jews. Readers on this blog, be alert to this
        standard tactic of of proponents of Israel right or wrong, of Israel uber alles, such as eee. Judge for yourself. And alternative
        start on this subject can be gleanded by simply googling Nakba.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 11:09 am

        “Hey, there’s the original Holocaust, and now its sequel, The Silent Holocaust. Talk about the best of all possible worlds! Pangloss would know! No wonder Candide went home to tend his literal garden.”

        No, the Holocaust is not happening again. Just a small minority of irrational haters is piggybacking on sites like this to incite against Israel.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 11:21 am

        The “silent holocaust” refers to some (not all) American jew’s conclusion that loving intemarriage between jews and gentiles in the USA and EU is tantamont to gassing jews at Auschwitz. It its a phrase made up by some rabbis, and echoed by certaim Jewish organizations, not all Jewish orgs.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 11:30 am

        EEE, there is a distinction between the antics of the state of Israel, and the antics of jews both in Israel, and in the diaspora. One can be against the economically and militarily powerful state of Israel’s activities, especially as empowered by the lone superpower USA, which enables Israel’s regime via the US IRS & US Sec Council veto, and not be anti-semitic, but rather, pro-humanist across the board.

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 11:39 am

        What, there is intermarriage in the US? I thought Chaos and Danna basically said that this is not happening! Oy vey!

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 12:14 pm

        You got it wrong about intermarriage… we basically like it – nothing like some waspy or catholcky zing to smooth the edges. American is a mongrel mutt that became superpower. Whereas poor little israel is the shrunken zion, the melting pot that wasn’t. Instead of the sea that lifts all boats, it’s a vent hole that sucks in fresh water and spews out fire and the sulphur of hubris. If any place ever needed some new blood….well, you do have that influx of not-so-jewish Russians – 1/2 a million or so? problem is – it takes more than one generation for the positive effects to show up. problem with evolution is that it’s too darn slow….

        Time for you to pick yourself up from the dust and intermarry properly, eee….

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 12:46 pm

        Danaa,

        You still did not explain how your children and in general the children of intermarriages will remain Jews, meaning either practicing Judaism or being connected to Israel.

        I see that intermarriages are very successful:
        link to suntimes.com

        Who are you trying to fool?

        As for me I have married a nice Jewish girl and have three kids who are now third generation born in Israel.

      • Chaos4700
        April 16, 2010, 1:17 pm

        So this is Zionism, huh? “Separation of the races.”

      • Danaa
        April 16, 2010, 1:56 pm

        eee -oy-vey: “You still did not explain how your children and in general the children of intermarriages will remain Jews, meaning either practicing Judaism or being connected to Israel.”

        Alas, eee, it seems you do not understand Judaism very deeply, do you? So Judaism is one of two things: (1) a religion (2) a nationality. Now, that’s kind of limiting, it’d seem to me.

        Whatever happened to judaism as a culture? or a set of values? Do you know what happens to not-so-nice jewish boys who make old rabbis turn in their graves?

        BTW, as I said above to Shmuel, you have insulted the one true religion for many – if not most – Israelis – the beach culture. Some may go to pray at an old wall (therefore practicing a form of idolatry), while others go for a swim (a form of prayer of which god greatly approves). Hillel would probably say it’s OK either way, if the intent is right. I’d of course argue with Hillel (and anyone else) that it’s the quality and purity of intent that counts, not the specifics of the mambo-jumbo.

        Go for a swim now, eee – take the nice jewish girl and [likely quite grown] kids (they must be grown if you have time to hang out here as much as you do – otherwise it’s Hilul Hashem to skip quality time with the family in favor of running a posse of one – yado bekol ve yad kol bo – style).

      • eee
        April 16, 2010, 2:14 pm

        Danaa,

        Since when is Judaism a culture or a set of values?
        Judaism accommodates many cultures and many values. Two Jews can disagree about abortion, the death penalty, gay marriage, etc etc etc. and still be Jews. You seem to want to decide that YOUR values and culture determine what Judaism is. Of course, an extremely arrogant and preposterous view.

        I go to the Herzeliya beaches often enough. Claiming that beach culture is the true religion of most Israelis shows how detached you are. When was the last time you were in Israel anyway?

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 5:56 pm

        Yeah, we all know how much you care about the average US goy citizen and family, eee.

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 5:59 pm

        Of course it is happening, eee; otherwise would your folks feel the need
        for the the “Silent Holocast” propaganda?

      • Citizen
        April 16, 2010, 6:02 pm

        Hey, eee, please clarify what the distinction is between goys and jews. Thanks!

      • Shingo
        April 16, 2010, 7:12 pm

        “‘You make AIPAC to be some giant when in fact its total budget is about $60 million per year.”‘

        You know very well that it’s operational budget has nothign to do with themoney it controls. AIPAC itself gives nothing to politicians, but directs it’s members to donate. No money passes through AIPAC’s hands.

        “The budget of the NRA is $200 million. “‘

        That’s beacsue unlike AIPAC, the NRA is a registered lobby. In fact, there is no law requiring AIPAC to disclose it’s budget.

        “AIPAC is successful not because of its money but because of its focus.”‘

        And because it has avoidedhaving to register as a lobby of a foreign country.

        “AIPAC is a completely legal organization.”‘

        On the contrary, AIPAC is is vilation of laws that require it to register as a lobby for a foreing entity.

      • Taxi
        April 17, 2010, 12:12 am

        Sometimes life imitates art.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2010, 2:13 pm

        Gosh eee, I never suspected a Jew, even an “atheist Jew” can be as stupid as you. Just shows, you learn something new every day, unless you’re a Zionist.

  4. Citizen
    April 16, 2010, 11:13 am

    I apologize for the typos. And alternative=an alternative; and gleaneded -gleaned. Sorry, I have other things on my plate, and I type fast and do not
    spellcheck enough… I know you are smart, and you will get my drift anyway…keep up the quest for truth!

    • Mooser
      April 17, 2010, 2:18 pm

      I try to use the spellcheck as often as I can. It’s bad enough people have to read my comments, and to be subjected to misspellings, too? Beyond, as they say, the pale. (Funny, I always thought that expression referred to missing the bowl, but it doesn’t. Go figure)
      And if I don’t take the time to use it, a whopping big mistake always gets through.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2010, 2:23 pm

        BTW, that other stuff on your plate? Are you going to eat that? Cause I haven’t had breakfast, I could use a nosh, and those sour-cream-and-blueberry blintzes look so good! Got any more coffee?

  5. radii
    April 16, 2010, 1:59 pm

    hey UNIX, er i mean eee,

    these comments were discussing Hillary’s rhetorical wiggle room, yes?

    Hillary is Sec’y of State seeking a peace deal on behalf of her boss and any deal is going to have caveats, so I’m not sure that her statement is so sinister

    as for Unix/eee/yonira (they might as well be the same person) and his/her/their anti-intermarriage hoo-ha, it is right out of Ari Fleischer’s jewish-superiority playbook – racists never think they are racist

    • Mooser
      April 17, 2010, 2:20 pm

      Whoa, whoa, don’t put Yonira in the no-intermarriage bag! That’s not for him. And that old fashioned Jewish chastity-until-marriage thing? Not for him! He’s a swinger!

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